Conference noted::sf

Any of the McAndrew stories by Charles Sheffield.
_Dragon's Egg_ by Robert Forward.


				-- edp

THE FOREVER WAR by Joe Haldeman
DUNE by Frank Herbert	:-)	 [Done right!]
A GIFT FROM EARTH by Larry Niven [I think this is the Niven book that would
				  lend best to filmmaking.]

I'll think of more later.

--- jerry

It's true that I don't see many movies, but do we really want to see our
favorite books turned into average or even slightly above average movies?
I missed the movie version of _Dune_, but it seems that most people found
it not quite up to expectation.  What books have been turned into GOOD movies?
(I'll start making a list of films to see...)

                                                 Kathy

I agree Dune made right would be excellant.
Stranger in a Strange Land, wait never mind I'd rather they left my favorites
alone.:-)

dave

_The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ by Heinlein...

It's got suspense, violence, sex (well, polygamy), practical jokes, unlikely
characters, and a self-aware computer that talks.


John B.

THE STARS MY DESTINATION 9Bester)
FACE IN THE ABYSS; CREEP, SHADOW, CREEP; and THE METAL MONSTER (Merritt)
[animation] DREAM-QUEST OF UNKNOWN KADATH (Lovecraft) [his *best*]
GATHER, DARKNESS (Leiber)
"The Proud Robot" ("Padgett"[Kuttner])
"Judgement Night" (Moore)

Steve Kallis, Jr.

I wish they'd turn R. Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber into a movie myself.

...Rob...

> What books have been turned into GOOD movies?

Without regard for whether the movie was as good as the novel or story, or
whether it was all that faithful:

THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN
BID TIME RETURN		--->	SOMEWHERE IN TIME
THE BODY SNATCHERS	--->	INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS
"A Boy and His Dog"
CARRIE
THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO	--->	THE SEVEN FACES OF DR. LAO
A CLOCKWORK ORANGE
DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF
	ELECTRIC SHEEP?	--->	BLADE RUNNER
DRACULA
"Duel"
FAIL SAFE
"Farewell to the Master"--->	THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL
FIRST MEN IN THE MOON
FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON	--->	CHARLY
FRANKENSTEIN		--->	FRANKENSTEIN and THE BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN
"The Greatest Gift"	--->	IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE
HELL HOUSE		--->	THE LEGEND OF HELL HOUSE
THE HUNGER
JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH
THE MEPHISTO WALTZ
METROPOLIS
1984
ON THE BEACH
PLANET OF THE APES
RED ALERT		--->	DR. STRANGELOVE
THE SHINING
THE TIME MACHINE
20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA
WAR OF THE WORLDS
"Who Goes There?"	--->	THE THING
THE WIZARD OF OZ
THE WOLFEN

This should be enough for starters.

--- jerry

I wouldn't want any of my favorite novels turned into movies.
Of Jerry's list (.8), the only true successes in translating
to the screen came from shorter works (Boy and His Dog, Flowers for Algernon;
both novellas (or shorter) in their original forms).
I've been disappointed recently by the film versions of "1984" and "2010"
because they were faithful to the books, and hence had to leave out a lot
of extrapolation and side story.  I've not seen "Dune", but I can well
imagine that the thinness of the movie is based on shoveling 800 pages of
story into 2 hours (more or less - 5~10 pages/minute?).

Other successes from shorter works: "Killdozer", "Rollerball Murder" 
(Rollerball), "The Soft Weapon" (Star Trek cartoon version).

- tom powers]

Re .9:

I believe the track recod of Hollywood [the Platonic ideal; not just re-
stricted to Southern California] in translating *any* form of fiction to 
the screen is less that good.  THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL was a good SF
film, *but* it wasn't 10% of the original story, "Farewell to the Master."
THE THING wasn't 5% of the original "Who Goes There," which, if screened as
writted would *have* to have been directed by Alfred Hitchcock.


But then, Sturgeon's Law applies across the board, not just to SF.  Gann's
FATE IS THE HUNTER was a fair movie (speaking as a licensed pilot, and being
fully aware that Gann was a technical advisor), but the book was *superb.*
Other non-SF examples could be cited, but ...

I think the question was more "if the film would be faithful to the original,
what works..." etc.

Anybody can make a sow's ear out of a silk purse.  Far too often in "Holly-
wood," they do.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

Much as I loved "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress," I'd hate to see them
try to make a movie out of it.  It would be much too easy for hollywood
to screw it up and that would be unbearable.  I would like to see someone
have a go at "The Puppet Masters," though.  It's fast-paced, has romance,
thrills, terror, hag-ridden zombies, and the eventual triumph of humanity.

If hollywood were to blow this one, I could in good conscience refrain from
ever seeing another SF movie...

JP

re .11:  _The Puppet Masters_ would be good, but it'd be hard to make it
work without the nudity factor, and that would automatically X-rate it
(I mean .. the whole last half of the film with above-the-waist shots??);
which, regrettably, would restrict the audience.
	Of the Heinlein films, a faithful translation of _Revolt in 2100_ or
better, _Sixth Column_ would be good.  Maybe even great, though there are 
those who'd accuse the latter of being racist...
	Some of the better SF novels would make lousy films, because they aren't
particularly visually oriented.  Could you _really_ do justice to, say, _The
Demolished Man_ visually?  
	If you could combine _The World of Null-A_ and _The Players of Null-A_
into a single Epic, it could be very good (imagine the visual The Follower
would make!), but I'd hate to tackle a faithful rendition of _The Dreaming
Jewels_ or the Lensman series (any or all).

Steve Kallis, Jr.

re. .8

Something Wicked This Way Comes was another one (I didn't see
on your list).

I don't think it's fair to say Hollywood *can't* make a good
movie out of a book.  True they are usualy very disapointing (DUNE),
but a lot of the movies Jerry mentions in  .8 are indeed excellent
movies.  Andromeda Strain is one of my favorites.

re:.13

Yes, I should of included SOMETHING WICKED... Mea culpa.

You got exactly the point I was making. The original comment was about whether
any books got made into good movies. So I responded with a list of good movies
that were adapted from books.

What so many people don't consider is that in many cases in which a movie isn't
faithful to a book, it's because the filmmaker wants to tell the basic story,
but many of the details may not work as film images. As an example, let's take
Haldeman's THE FOREVER WAR. The novel is told in first person. That's very
difficult to bring off in a film without a lot of overdubbed thoughts. So the
structure of the story would have to be changed in order to accomodate a third
person point of view. Another example, one that was done, is THE SHINING. In
King's novel, there was a topiary of animal-shaped hedges that moved when the
kid looked at them (and attack a person toward the end). Kubrick decided that
this would be too difficult to do, special-effects-wise (I disagree; I think
it could've been done relatively easily), so he changed that element to a hedge
maze.

In some cases, I think that changes are made for the better. Out of the list
of films I made in .8, I consider the following to be better (in some cases,
*far* better) than the books they came from:

BID TIME RETURN		--->	SOMEWHERE IN TIME
THE BODY SNATCHERS	--->	INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS
CARRIE
A CLOCKWORK ORANGE
DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF
	ELECTRIC SHEEP?	--->	BLADE RUNNER
	(I suppose it depends on your point of view, but I found Dick's novel
	 virtually impossible to read.)
"Farewell to the Master"--->	THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL
	(This is difficult to assess, because there is a point to the story
	 that is lost in the film, but I still think the film is better.)
FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON	--->	CHARLY

The films made from Verne, Wells, etc. are also hard to assess. I think the
films are better because I found the original stories dense reading.

And in at least one case, THE WIZARD OF OZ, the filmmakers took great liberties
with the book, but can you really say that the movie was no good?

--- jerry

re .14:
>And at least in one case, THE WIZARD OF OZ, the filmakers took great liberties
>with the book, but can you really say that the movie was no good?

No, not no good.  Just several orders of magnitude *less* good than the book.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

P.S.: I have yet o see an even halfway decent film version of _Alice In
Wonderland_.

SK

Personally, I would like to see Arthur C. Clarke's
		Against the Fall of Night  (retitled: The City & the Stars)
made into a film. I have recurring dreams about the city Diaspar, perhaps
because I read the story when I was young - but I think this was a super
story.

And I'd really like Ralph Bakshi to finish the Lord of the Rings, damn his
eyes.

re .14 - in my original remark which prompted the creation of this note
(I don't remember where it is) I said "what SF would you like to see
made into a film", not "what SF has been made into good films".
My suggestions included Niven's Ringworld and Ringworld Engineers,
Clark's The City and the Stars (ne Against the Fall of Night) and the
Doc Smith stuff.  I didn't assume hollywood would trash them - what I
was after was SF that has a very strong visual component that could be
exploited by the wide screen.

re .15 - how about the Disney animation of Alice?

len.

Re .17:

The Disney animation of _Alice In Wonderland_ was the best attempt to date
of doing something with the story; to translate it into a *really* good
film would require cripting by Jack Vance (whose logic can at times match
"Carroll"'s -- e.g., some of the Magnus Ridolph stories).  

Also, one who asks what books thy'd like to see as films implies strongly
"good films," because it's silly to suppose people would want to see movies
made of stories or books they didn't enjoy.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

Off the point a little bit, I've always wanted to see Fritz Leiber's,
"THE BIG TIME" staged. Leiber obviously wrote the book with the theatre in 
mind (not too surprising when you consider his background).

In fact, I did a paper for a college theatre class that was a script 
adaptation of "THE BIG TIME." Even got an `A' (gee, thanks Fritz). Maybe 
I'll produce it myself if I can get a release.

Hmm. others? Well, I'd like to see the film of Tom Reamy's (he of SAN DIEGO 
LIGHT FOOT SUE fame) script, STING (I think that was the name,, feel free 
to correct me), which was published in the book SIX SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS. 
The book was also notable for containing Ellison's *original* script of
CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER, wildly variant from the produced version.

And I wonder what happened to I, ROBOT and LUCIFER'S HAMMER? Both, at one 
time or the other, were said to be on their respective ways to be filmed.

Finally, did anyone ever get to see Varley's OVERDRAWN AT THE MEMORY BANK?
I saw mentioned that it had been turned into a PBS television film, but 
never got the opportunity to watch it?

Fred 

re .18 - well, obviously, I doubt anyone would want to have a film made of
a story they didn't like, and just as obviously they wouldn't want to see
a bad film made of a story they liked.  So I didn't think it was necessary
to provide either qualification.  But many (most?) of the replies have said
something like "I'd like to see this done but hollywood would mangle it."
My original question was more rhetorical than anything.

Overdrawn at the Memory Bank was filmed?!  Does anybody know anymore about
it.  I thought the story was incredible.

len.

I saw OVERDRAWN AT THE MEMORY BANK (even have it on tape for posterity).
The movie (hour long videotape production on PBS) was awful. It had its
moments, but they were few and far between. They chose to take the basic
plot and run in a totally different and inferior direction.

--- jerry

re .21 - oh well, ...

len.

Return from the Stars, S. Lem
The Inferno, G. Hoyle

	Raise the Titanic.  (properly done.. :-))

							mike

The current issue of Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine has a column
by Norman Spinrad on what it takes to make good SF film out of a good SF
novel.  While Norman Spinrad and I would have trouble agreeing on the time
of day normally, I think he makes a very good point in that article about
capturing the heart of the story, because that is all a film can manage.

As for me, I'd like to see Starship Troopers done as a movie.

Dave Wall

To contine the established pattern of digression...

Did anybody else see the PBS production of LeGuin's _The Lathe of Heaven_
several years back? It was an outstanding rendition of the original work,
and a very good (production values) movie, despite what was pretty 
obviously a low budget. Really inspired. I would *love* to get a tape of
that one!

How about Lucalfilms doing all (well, most of) the Heinlein juveniles? Basic
Saturday serial stuff, that. Not so complex (as in requiring thought) that
Hollywood commercialization would destroy the essence of the stories.

    	RENDEVOUS WITH RAMA - Clarke
    	ORPHANS OF THE SKY - Heinlein
    	MISSION OF GRAVITY - Clement
    	
    
    	Larry