Conference noted::sf

Problem here is that one person's "Must read" is another's not-so-stifled
yawn.  I, for one, trring to stick to a SF/F continuum for the moment, was
told of certain "classics" that proved less than interesting.  The _The
Purple Cloid_ by M. P. Sheil, for instance, and see if you can make it 
through without forcing yourself to.  Eddison's _The Worm Ouroboros_, for
instance, can cause lots of people to grit their teeth to finish (though
some swear by it rather than at it).

Steve Kallis, Jr.

I tend to read almost anything all the way through, including some pretty
awful stuff. I forced my way through "The Talisman" on the recommendation
of several friends, and it did get better, but it took some effort to
make myself go on.

I never did finish "The Foundation Trilogy" (gasps from the SF Classic
cadre); in general I'm not fond of the SF-as-sociology genre. I suspect
I might do better now if I ever decided to try it again, but there are
too many other things on my shelves.

Can't think of any other notable failures, not recent ones anyway. It is
true that I haven't read all of Tolkien's "Unfinished Tales" or whatever
that is, but that's a collection of stories rather than a single book,
and it doesn't seem as remiss to stop in the middle!

-b

re:.2

That's all right, Beth, there're a few "classics" that I've never been able
to finish:

(1) LORD OF THE RINGS --- Gave up during THE TWO TOWERS just at about the
same point that Bakshi's film ended. Tolkien's world interested me, but the
story was boooorrrrrrriiiiiinnnnnnggggg.

(2) STARSHIP TROOPERS --- I tried this one three times, and was never able
to get beyond about the first third of the book.

(3) WAR OF THE WORLDS --- Got about half-way through; found the writing too
dense (I've enjoyed other Wells stories, though).

--- jerry

I had a tough time making it through Zelazny's Lord of Light myself.
I did manage to do so eventually though.

- Rob

(And he is my favorite author)

Well, I am glad to see that I am not the only one who could not stomache the 
"lord of light" series, I did'nt even get to find out if it was a series .
   On the other hand, I loved the Foundation Trilogy and Starship Troopers .
If any one else liked the Asimov classic, you might also like a newcomer to 
Sci-Fi :  M.K. Wren "The Sword of the Lamb" .  This is the first book of a 
trilogy, I found it to be the best story I have read in many years .
   Ooops, we are supposed to be roasting here, not boasting .  The worst book 
I have tried to read in recent history is "Orion Shall Rise" by Poul Anderson,
I don't remember what it's about and am I glad .

regards,
Jon

	After three years and *countless* tries I'm only about 2/3
	of the way through Heinlein's _Number_of_the_Beast_  This
	definitely deserves the "Big Yawn" award on my list...

	However, his new one, _JOB_... was a delight. So he's at
	least partially redeemed himself.

	Mike

I didn't make it through Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow."  Every now and then
I'd hit a page or two of beautiful prose.  These passages were always
separated from each other by many pages of utter dreck...

Isaac Asimov's autobiography bored me to tears. What do I care if he got 
a "A" in Chemistry??? I never finished it -- never will.

I could get myself through the second book of the DUNE series either. 
Maybe I'll try this one again.


MartyJ

Could not make it through the Thomas Covenent books.  It my have something
to do with my need for a hero to improve himself.  From what I was told he
did become a better person,  but I didn't want to wade through two and a
half books to find out.  All I can remember is:

Some one other than Covenent: "Help us"
Covenent: "I'm a leper!"
Other: "Can we help you?"
Covenent: "I'm a leper!"
Other: "What can be done?"
Covenent: "I'm a leper!"
    .
    .
    .

Apologies about the spelling of his name (if it is, indeed incorrect).

					Mike

RE: -1

Good thing you didn't hit the One Tree.  The only thing he said for a few 
hundred pages was

"Don't touch me."

That gets a boring book award, but I already have the Linden Avery series on
my list and they aren't even out yet.

- Rob

Rob

Your systems time zone is still off.  Are you EST or EDT (standard or daylight 
savings respectively)?  From Atlanta, you are an hour fast.

Beth

I've been told it's off on other notes files too, but I don't know how to
go about fixing it. Everyone else screws up all my sinces too. I'm not sure
whether I'm EST or EDT. This node is in Woburn, Mass, so maybe you can tell 
me. It's funny when I get a reply that was written before my note.

- Rob

re:.6

Two-thirds of the way through NUMBER OF THE BEAST???!!! You're a better man
than I. I made it to the top of the second page before giving up.

re:.5(?)

LORD OF LIGHT was never a series; just one book. I found the book to be
just delightful. I'd easily put it in my top ten (maybe even top five) sf
books.

--- jerry

RE: .10

     Tell me your kidding about the Linden Avery series ?  Not even SRD would
try and drag another series out of the LAND, would he ?

     I'm still stuck 40 pages into 'The Homecoming' by John Dalmas. 
                                                                    KEN COBB

Sure he could.  Guaranteed.  Three more thick books of flint shard prose.
Three more thick books of people turning a morning cup of coffee into 
a major psychological confrontation.  Three more thick books of eldritch
whatsises.  No thank you.

	HRB

I feel like I'm at a disadvantage in this note.  See, I NEVER fail to finish a
book.  I tend to forget series and authors instead.

I finished Dhalgren, too.  All I remember is that I will never buy another 
Delany book.

I stopped at book four of Dune.  Herbert I will still read - Dune I will not.  
(I've been told this is a mistake - if so, it's one I currently don't regret.)

There was a series called War Gamers World by James? Walker.  Stopped reading
after the first book.  Won't go back, either.  Unfortunately, the similarity
in names has given me problems in trying out the Bishoff's Gamer's World 
series.  (That, plus the unfortunate series where mechanical monsters threaten
the peace of a medieval world, complete with an insane computer who thinks
he's Satan.  Can't remember the name of the series, probably fortunately.) 

Terry Brooks has probably lost a sale of Shannara IV.  Three strikes and out. 

Alan Dean Foster has such neat ideas, I read all of the Flinx and Humanx 
books.  But his writing is so awfully sophomoric (even for juveniles) that I 
thnk I've given up on him, too.

Sorry if this was off the topic a bit, but series I won't finish doesn't seem 
too far off the track...

- Chris

The Gormenghast trilogy (mentioned in another note) is one I never made it
through.  Maybe I'll give it another try one of these days...

							-- Nina

I never finished the Thomas Covenant book I started (the first I think), 
I never finished the Number of the Beast. Yuk! I shudder when I begin to 
remember. I never finish any of the Piers anthony books I've tried to 
read except Macroscope and that got hard to handle. I guess I'm wierd
I read Dhalgen about 6 times. I liked it. I just never understood what 
was going on :-)

					dave

I must be wierd.  I not only finished NUMBER OF THE BEAST but liked it.  I'm 
not sure I understand it though.

re: .19

You're not that wierd (well may be not that much more than I am (-: ) as
I also finished the Number of the Beast and my even re-read it some time
soon.  I admit it was strange, but I tend to like anything by Heinlein (the
was not as enjoyable as most and I question Friday, but...).  I forgot about
Piers Anthony.  I read the first two books in the Xanth series, started the
third and couldn't finish.

I have problems with authors who talk to me as if I were a child, reminding
me every couple of pages why what-ever-his-name-is could not perfom magic
like every one else.  I think I caught the idea by the third explanation
of the situation and didn't need to be berated with it.

					Mike

Dahlgren I read all the way through.  Can't say I enjoyed it, but it was thought
provoking enough for me to say I'm glad I read it.  (After having read
Triton, however, I will not touch a Delany again without good reason.)

I, too, couldn't get into Gravity's Rainbow.  I kept getting as far as the 
banana pancakes and could get no further.  What was it really about anyway.

My most recent "drop it" was Bova's Millenium, at about page 20.  His books
are all the same, and while he gets some good science in, he has so many
gratuitous plot elements that I'm always distracted.

Several years ago I stopped reading CS Lewis in the third volume of the 
Perelandra (sp?) series.  I literally said to myself "Why am I reading
this drivel?" and dropped the book on the spot.

- tom]

All those people who said that the Silmarillion wasn't that good, you're right.
That goes back in the archives. I think I'll convince someone to buy me Trumps
of Doom and read that instead.

- Rob

I tend to make a real effort to get through a book before I give up on it.
Often the problem is simply that I'm not in the mood for that kind of story
at that particular moment.  I'll generally appreciate it more by putting it
down for a while and coming back to it later.

Among the books previously mentioned, I had no trouble getting through The
Foundation Trilogy, The Lord of the Rings, _War_of_the_Worlds_,
_Macroscope_, _Orion_Shall_Rise_ (a fascinating book!), _The_Number_of_the_
Beast_ (though I felt thoroughly cheated by the ending), and both sets of
Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.

However, I never did finish _The_Sillmarillion_, _Dune_Messiah_, _Dhalgren_,
_Pawn_of_Prophecy_, by David Eddings (though I intend to try again), Anne
McCaffrey's first dragon book, Brian Aldiss' _Galactic_Empires_ anthology,
and probably some others I've forgotten.

					  -  o
					 - -/-->
					-  @~\_

					Roger

When I saw the title of the note, I was scared to mention this book as
unfinishable. But then I saw Foundation Trilogy being mentioned and my fear
melted away. 

I have the nasty habit of finishing a book, however difficult it is. So I can
only say that I found it difficult to finish DUNE (yes folks, the first book).
I couldn't stand DOSADI EXPERIMENT (also by Herbert I think). 

There are a quite a few others. But if I find it tough to read, I find it
equally tough to remember the title and author.

This note is a really useful one. When we look for book recommendations we can
see if the person recommending the book has a similiar taste to ours. Like in
.23 I see Roger likes Foundation and War of the worlds which I too liked. So
I probably will like Orion shall rise and Lord of the Rings.

Hope this file grows, avoiding unnecessary flames for writing badly about
someone else's favourite.

Sampath.

RE: .23

If you like Piers Anthony, the David Eddings books are pretty similar except
they don't have as many puns. They are actually pretty good books (except
the end) so If you like Anthony, definately give them a try again.

- Rob

re:.24

"When I saw the title of the note..."

When *I* saw the title of this note, I was tempted to include SAGA OF LOST
EARTHS, THE STAR MILL, and TRAMONTANE, all by Emil Petaja, but it's rather
too obscure a joke.

--- jerry

(snicker) Good one, Jerry! (I just *love* obscure jokes - as long as I
get 'em sooner or later.)

-b

How about _666_ by Pel Torro (sp). I remember nothing about the first 10?
pages I read except that I was convinced it was the worst book I had ever
read.

Tamzen

Well, to hark back to reply .1... if you thought _The_Worm_Ouroboros_ was
difficult then may I suggest NOT trying :

	_The_Mezentian_Gate_
	_Mistress_of_Mistresses_
	_A_Fish_dinner_in_Memison_ all by E R Eddison

I really enjoyed Ouroboros and I'm re-reading it now but and 1.5 of the above
I was not only totally bemused but also bored silly.

And as for Tolkien haven't you heard of

	_The_Myths_of_Middle_Earth_ I & II	(I think thats right!!)

the out-takes that C. Tolkein rejected from _Unfinished_Tales_. I've read all
Tolkien from _Pearl_ to _Unfinished_Tales_ and that includes the
_Father_Christmas_Letters_ and still I'm beaten by Myths..

	Ian.

re: .26

Unfair on the allusion to a joke, then leaving some of us wanting to know the 
full reference.

I hope everybody remembers this filesnote is for books we didn't complete
(or wished we didn't) because they proved uninteresting (read boring).  A
story can be bad but not boring (for instance PHOENIX PRIME by [I think
is was] White).  A book where the pace is so slow or where the action is
so predictable that there is little to hold one's interest falls into this
area; one fantasy that rather fits is the unexpurgated Sir Richard F.
Burton's translation of the 1,001 Nights.  The story-within-a-story-within-
a-story-witthin- ...-story gets past one's tolerance level fairly quickly;
the eroticism, oddly, gets old rapidly (I mean, the _Karma Sutra_ it isn't),
and a lot of the stories have enough similarities that if I'd been the sultan,
I'd haze offed Scherezade long before the 3.something years were up.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

	Perhaps boring is the wrong word, I was so confused by the book that my
interest in completing it was entirely removed (ie reading
_Mistress_of_Mistreses_), I haven't even opened _A_Fish_Dinner_in_Memison_.
And just to set the record straight the Tolkien pair are called

	_The_Book_of_Lost_Tales_  I & II

and to quote from the fly she -

	"The Book of Lost Tales was the first major work of imagination
	by J R R Tolkien, begun in 1916-17 when he was 25 years old, and
	left incomplete several years later."

I rather suppose that JRR knew when to abort a task, unlike his son...
Maybe I'll give this another bash next week on vacation, then I might have
changed my oppinion.

	Apologies for inaccuracy and droning on about Tolkien again...

		Ian.

RE: .30, re .26 - I believe that Emil Petaja might be, shall we say,
Scandinavian in origin? (But jokes are never as much fun when they've
been explained.)

Of course, if *I've* got it wrong, never mind...

-b

It's actually a bit more complex than that.

If you'll look at the title of this note, you may notice that "finish"
is spelled incorrectly. Well, as Beth points out (or nearly so), Petaja
is of Finnish descent. On top of that, the three books I mentioned ---
along with a fourth that I inadvertently left out, THE STOLEN SUN ---
are based on a Finnish epic poem, "The Kalevela".

Well, I *did* say that it was too obscure a joke.

--- jerry

In re .34:

Oh, well, if you hadn't left out _The_Stolen_Sun_, I might have gotten it! :-)

					  -  o
					 - -/-->
					-  @~\_

					Roger

re. -.16,.18

I tried several times to finish Dhalgren, never could. Hot coals on my tongue
MAY convince me to pick up another Delany book, but they would have to be
very hot coals.


					*==[--------
					
					   Pat

I feel sorry for you people for whom DHALGREN is the first exposure to
Delany. Try EMPIRE STAR, THE BALLAD OF BETA-2, THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION,
BABEL-17 or NOVA. Much more readable. NOVA is still somewhat avant-garde,
but I thought it enjoyable (and I don't go much for avant-garde stories
in general).

--- jerry

But not TRITON!  Not TRITON!  Not TRITON!  (And not the NEVERYON books either.)

You have a list with EMPIRE STAR on it and say NOVA is avant-garde?  What
criteria *are* you using?

	HRB

PS  Since this is the 'Best Books' note I'll put in a series:  'Dancers at
the End of Time', by Moorcock.  Great stuff.  I've never been able to read
his sword & sorcery junk.

RE: .38

This isn't the 'best books' note.

...Rob...

re:.38

What standards do *you* use? Granted, it's been over 15 years since I read
either EMPIRE STAR or NOVA, and at the time (I was ~15 years old), I was
not one to appreciate the avant-garde New Wave style of writing. It struck
me at the time that EMPIRE STAR was a more straightforward piece of prose
than NOVA was. Most of what I enjoyed about NOVA was its wealth of ideas,
and it wasn't too, as they say, "inaccessible".

I couldn't say one way or t'other about TRITON. I gave up from terminal
boredom about 50 pages in. It wasn't until you mentioned it that, yes, this
is another book that I never finished.

--- jerry

Never finished DHALGREN.  Same for STAND ON ZANZIBAR; Brunner jumped around 
too much.  I like P.K. Dick, but not DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP; I 
can see why Blade Runner wasn't faithful to the book.

Disch's 334 I found a mish-mash of odd stories, not very memorable, at least
as far as I got.  ON WINGS OF SONG looks more promising; I'll see when I 
start it.

I put down Benford's DEEPER THAN THE DARKNESS so long ago I forgot why.
Maybe I'll try it again--but I have so many others it will take extra effort.

NIGHT OF LIGHT was described in Nichol's encycl. as the best "Father Carmody" 
story Farmer wrote.  There's worse?

I stuck with Dune (that damn sand gets in everywhere!) until GOD-EMPEROR.  
This is an example of how sequels can detract from the lasting impact of
a fine story.  Like Hollywood.

The first Zelazny story I read was "...AND CALL ME CONRAD."  (And that should
tell you *where* I read it!)  I've been a fan ever since, even the first 4
Amber sequels (still reading TRUMPS).  TO DIE IN ITALBAR could not hold my
attention.  Four attempts.

I quit halfway through CAESAR DIES; although Mundy's Tros & Jimgrim stories
are dynamite and I was *TOTALLY* enthralled with KING, OF THE KYBER RIFLES,
CAESAR reads like it was written by someone else.  

In MENTION MY NAME IN ATLANTIS, John Jakes thought he was doing a humorous
takeoff on Conan.  In the same vein, SORCEROR'S WORLD seemed to have elements
of humor built into it.  Whether on purpose or not, Broderick fell short.
S&S fans beware!

In the run-of-the-mill category, I found the following quite mediocre:  C.J.
Cherryh's PORT ETERNITY, Randall Garret's ANYTHING YOU CAN DO..., and Emil
Petaja's THE NETS OF SPACE.

Being a big R.A.H. fan since The Roads Must Roll, I eagerly started THE NUMBER 
OF THE BEAST.  I finished it (being stubborn) even though it wound up in 
Fantasyland.  What a disappointment.  FRIDAY was much better, but I wished 
he'd finished writing it before sending it to the publisher.  Then came JOB, 
poking fun at life everafter.  It was O.K., but I kept waiting for 666 to show 
up and yell "April Fool!"  At least I now know where Farmer got his title for 
the first part of TO YOUR SCATTERED BODIES GO.

I'm currently dragging my way through THE ROBOTS OF DAWN.  Doesn't hold my
interest like the first two and other "Who-Done-It"s I've read.  I haven't
gotten very far into THE INTEGRAL TREES either.  I may be having a concept-
crisis with that one.  What do you do after you make it hoop-shaped or  
spherical and habitable on the inside?  Well,....  I'll stick with it;
maybe he's spun a good yarn after all.

Finally, there's THE FEMALE MAN.  Did anyone out there like it, or feel 
Russ struck an effective blow for the plight of womankind?  Does reader 
gender make a difference?   (Now I'm very hesitant to start PICNIC ON
PARADISE.)

     						Don

re:.-1

Hurrah! Another Mundy fan! I agree that CAESAR DIES leaves a little to be
desired. I wasn't all that enthralled with his Tros books, either, to be
honest. I felt that Mundy was best with his Jimgrim and King stories, as
well as his other stories about India. Having served there, he knew what he
was writing about.

--- jerry

I think I struck a nerve.  

Specifically, QUEEN CLEOPATRA & THE PURPLE PIRATE were the best; I suppose you
could say he was warming to his subject with TROS thru HELENE (per Avon).  As
for Grim & his gang, Mundy at his best.  I stumbled across KING last year.  An
o-l-d hardcover (no date) which really helped the flavor of the story.  Wow.
Mundy at his very best.  

Oh-oh.  Guess this shoulda went in the Best Books Note....

     							Don

Finished Dhalgren, though not the first time I read it.  The part in the
Bantam edition that lapses into two different typefaces is quite an obstacle.

Still struggling with Gravity's Rainbow.

I haven't been able to get through The Saga of Pliocene Exile or all of
Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame yet.

And, although not SF, I could never finish War and Peace

Dave Wall

    I couldn't finish _1984_ any of the three times I have tried to read
    it but since I am working my way through this entire notesfile how
    about a note "Notes I never finished"?

    My selection of unfinished books seems pretty ordinary by the standards
    of this note.  I tried to start the first two Thomos Covenant books
    and gave up.  I made a real effort to read _Macroscope_ and quit,
    and have since failed with a couple of Xanth books, _On_A_Pale_Horse_
    and _Bearing_an_Hourglass_.  I've concluded that Piers Anthony can't
    write anything BUT juveniles, because that's the level he's at himself.
    (A book written BY a juvenile is very different than one written
    FOR a juvenile BY an adult.)  Farmer's Riverworld books struck me
    the same way.
    
    I read the first Dune book with enjoyment, the second with
    disappointment, the third with repulsion, and gave up.  And found
    that the first book didn't hold up so well on re-reading.
                 
    My latest never-finished is "Code of the Lifemaker" by Hogan.  It
    was SO preachy and SO predictable and SO unoriginal after the starting
    spurt of the mechanical ecology on Titan.  And I found the class
    of morals being preached rather repellant.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    I don't want to turn this into a debate about Hogan, but I'm curious
    as to what moral values you found "repellant".  Hogan *is* preachy,
    but his meassage always struck me as "live and let live", something
    I have a hard time imagining somebody finding "repellant".
    
    len.
    

    Some of the messages I felt were in "Code of the Lifemaker" and
    were repellant were:
    
    1	Science and religion are natural enemies because science is
    	suffused with honesty while religion is a worthless mass of
    	deception and self-deception.
    
    2	Nonetheless, the mass of people are so stupid, gullible, and
    	easily led that one is justified in faking miracles and deluding
    	selected madmen into thinking they are prophets and messiahs,
    	so as to avoid the social disasters these moronic loons would
    	perpetrate if left to themselves.
                                                         
    #1, at least, seems to be the relation depicted between science
    and religion among the "robeings" of Titan, and #2 seems to summarize
    the tactics used by the heros to solve their problems.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Ok, I can see how you'd hear those messages and your revulsion is
    appropriate.  I think you've somewhat overstated Hogan's position,
    though, and I feel compelled to remind you that during the Middle
    Ages and before, the relationship between science and religion was
    in fact not very different from #1.  And you'd have to admit that
    a certain amount of charlatanry and demagoguery does come naturally
    to fanatical religious leaders, and politicians as well.  If people
    don't succumb to this sort of pitch, then why can't anybody who
    tells the truth (rather than what people want to hear) get elected?
    I seem to recall though, that towards the end of the book, Hogan's
    "manipulative" charismatic leader exhibits some redeeming (in Hogan's
    eyes) features.   I do agree that Hogan does probably abuse these
    notions and overdraw them to some extent (e.g., the military types
    in all his other books), but I think you're caricaturing his
    caricatures.
    
    So, Earl, you're right to some extent, but so is Jim.  And thanks
    for taking the time to elaborate.

    len.
    

    As a fairly new reader I'm gradually working my way through these
    notes. For unfinished books I'd include anything by Eddison,
    Anthony's Tarot series, Tomas Covenant, the first Shananara book
    (never bought another), Cherryh's latest - I quit at the 200th "Gods
    Rot", and Hogan's Code of the Life Maker which I disliked for the
    reasons given in the earlier note. I didn't care for Job for the
    same reasons tho I did finish it. There is a type of SF writing
    which I'd call "religion bashing" which borders on the adolescant
    and gets pretty boreing.

    Also as a new reader plowing my way through this file, I'll add
    my list.
    
    Dhalgren
    Son of Man, Silverberg
    the time of the dark, barbara hambly
    Dune series; forced myself through Dune, didn't even try the rest.
    Earthbook of Stormgate, poul anderson
    
    sm
    
    P.S an aside: great logo ( *==[-------- ) whoever that was!

    
    _Malafrena_ by Ursula K. Leguin
    
    And I've read and enjoyed everything else Leguin has written, so
    it was a big disappointment.
    
    I did finish _Number_Of_The_Beast, but I wish I hadn't.  Maybe we
    need another note, "Books I Regretted Finishing"?
    
    BTW, I loved _Dhalgren_
    
    Rita
    
    

	Dune (too slow)
	Stand on Zanzibar (too many characters)

    Can't agree with you about Stand on Zanzibar, or The Sheep Look
    Up, also by Brunner which followed it. The multiple plot threads
    added dimension that is rarely found, and implied a society as frenetic
    in pace compared with ours as ours would appear to a Victorian.
    
    All time Un-Favorite SF: Dhalgren. (Have I said this before?)

    RE: .54
    
    Another STAND ON ZANZIBAR fan!  I also liked the excerpts which
    appeared between chapters. They provided a real FEEL for the era
    in which the stories took place. 
    
    -Steve
    
    PS: Shockwave Rider (Brunner) has alot of the same 'feel' as
        Stand On Zanzibar and The Sheep Look Up.
    

  I read them years ago but...  I thought that "The Sheep Look Up," "Stand
  On Zanzibar," and "The Jagged Orbit" were all pretty much the same book
  written in three minor variations.  I liked "The Sheep Look Up" best
  because I read it first...

  BTW, if you enjoy being scared out of your wits by ecological catastrophes,
  don't miss "The End of the Dream" by Philip Wylie.

  JP

    
    .56 reminded me of a nonfavorite of mine:
    
    "Triumph" by Philip Wylie.
    
    Cardboard characters, miniseries plot. Read it maybe 20 years ago,
    and STILL remember it as BAD NEWS.
    
    E.

Re: .57

Vehemently disagree.  I'd recommend anything by Wylie (including his
philosophical treatises like "The Magic Animal" and "A Generation of
Vipers") with the possible of his "Worlds In Collision" stuff (or was
that by EandO Binder?).

I thought TRIUMPH had many neat ideas, for example: a) the mining of
harbors with nuclear weapons in such a way that the city was sprayed
with radioactive sodium (half-life of just a few hours, little residual
radioactivity -- the neutron bomb of the 1950's), b) exploding many
cobalt-jacketed fission bombs over a continent while simultaneously
exploding several huge fusion bombs at a higher altitude, thus blasting
the fallout products into the land and making it uninhabitable for
millenia. 

Wylie's treatment of many things first scared the hell out of me and
then caused me to think.  By the way, I always thought that many plot
elements from "Triumph" were lifted by RAH in "Farnham's Freehold." 
What I really liked about "Triumph" is the last paragraph, in which...

                   <spoiler follows form feed>


the inhabitants of the fallout shelter are rescued by a helicopter that
will take them to South America, which is relatively unaffected by the
nuclear holocaust.  One of those rescued asks the pilot who won the war.
Pilot answers, "We did.  We really kicked the hell out of them.  Not that
it matters..."

    
     Well, Wylie's ideas on bombing harbors weren't original--I remember
    it from other sources at the time...
    
     Strangely enough, I liked Wylie's books, "When Worlds Collide" and
    "After Worlds Collide" (I think those were the titles?)
    
    Guess that's what makes horse races...

    This isn't the same Philp Wylie that wrote "Gladiator" is it? [an
    inspiration for Superman]                                    
    
    DFW

    
    Oh yeah--Wylie's cowriter in "When/After Worlds Collide" was a 
    guy named Balmer. Believe there was a movie made. Haven't seen it
    (yet)
    
    If "Gladiator" (a horrible pun about Julius Ceasar and Cleopatra
    comes to mind...) was a source for Superman, it must have been 
    written a long time ago...could the writer have been Dirk Wylie?
    
    E.

  Re: horse races

  Yup, I guess so.  But I really do recommend "The End of the Dream" -- I
  read it during a vacation on Long Island, where I got to watch the sun
  go down through the brown/orange/green/purple goop that New Yorkers
  call air.  It certainly underlined the environmental concern expressed
  in the book...

  JP

    re:.63
    
    Same Philip Wylie. GLADIATOR was written in the early 30's,
    and is considered to be one of the major influences on
    Superman.
    
    --- jerry

    I usually make myself finish books.  However, there are a few that
    I have been unable to complete to date.
    
    The Books of The Black Current
    
    The Books of the New Sun (?)    Gene Wolfe
       I had heard so many wonderful things about this series, that
    I decided I had to read it.  After the fourth attempt to read the
    first book, I literally *forced* myself to sit down and finish it.
    
    There is one other book that I haven't been able to finish.  I can't
    remember the name however.
    
                                                                   
    -mishel
    

    
    Reply to .16, Chris Walsh (a couple years ago now!):
    
    If you are still out there, doing <next unseen>, please explain
    what is sophomoric about Alan Dean Foster?  This is not a sarcastic
    question, I honestly want to understand why this is something I
    don't perceive.  If you are referring to his material in the
    Spellsinger books and the like, I agree totally: it has been my
    observation that any ADF material not published by Del Rey is garbage.
    After all, you know that Del Rey rejected it first!!  But the various
    "humanx" books, including the Flinx series and the Icerigger series,
    seem ok to me.  Maybe I'm sophomoric.  Really, I would value your
    observations on Foster.
    
    On the topic:  I barely finished the Foundation series, but was
    always glad I did.  Never could get more than about 15 pages into
    the Silmarillion...
    
    Brian W.

    How's this for a shocker, there's an Isaac Asimov book I threw away
    after the first couple of chapters!  Book one of The Norby Chronicles
    (Little Lost Robot or some such?) by Janet and Isaac has to be the
    most disappointing book I've ever read, and I can't believe the
    Good Doctor had anything to do with it,
    
    I also can't seem to read anything by Usula K. LeGuin.  They are
    English words stuck together to make sentences, but I can read a page
    several times and still have not a clue as to what's happening. 
    
    I thought Shockwave Rider and The Sheep Look Up were great, so I guess
    I'll have to check out Stand On Zanzibar and Jagged Orbit. This kind of
    reminds me of a friend's selection of movies, he carefully checks the
    reviews and only goes to the movies the reviewers _don't_ like...  Oh,
    well, as long as it works!                                     
    
    Willie
    

    I guess its been a while since anyone couldn't finish a book! :-)
    
    I've run across a couple recently that got thrown aside in favor
    of something else.
    
    I finished the Forge of God by Greg Bear (a tedious book filled
    with boring characters who have little to do), but I couldn't 'bear'
    Anvil of Stars, the sequel, which had more uninteresting people and
    events.  I closed it at the half-way point and got rid of it.
    
    I also couldn't finish Downbelow Station (Cherryh), although for a
    different reason.  This book was well written but the plot was too
    dark and cold for me - kind of a like a black & white film without
    a soundtrack.
    _Marty

    I had a similar problem with Bear's Eternaty (sp?) the follow up to
    Eon.
    
    Along similar lines again... I read Enders Game (O.S. Card) and loved
    the book, but when I went on to read Speaker & Xenocide (in Card's own
    words the books he wnated to write but needed a biggining... Enders
    Game) I found them rather dull!
    
    Maybe I am starting to loose my perspective....
    
    
    Bob

Hmmm, I really enjoyed Ender's Game, and found Speaker for the Dead quite
readable.  However, I tried another of Card's books, "The SongMaster"
I believe it was, or something along those lines and finally stopped about
half-way through.  Haven't been bored enough to go back and finish it.

PeterT
 

    
    Familiar experiences.  I started Anvil of Stars and stopped fairly
    quickly, still haven't picked it up.  I did manage to get through
    Xenoxide, though it took several attempts and was done more out of a
    sense of duty than any compelling involvement.
    
    Most recently, I started "Decked" by Carol Higgins Clark (Mary's
    daughter) because it was on the NYT bestseller list.  Mistake.  She
    hasn't got 1% of her mother's talent.  The writing is competent (in
    a grammatical sense) at best, but when she required that I accept that
    a corpse be found after ten years outdoors and then be meaningfully
    autopsied never mind visually identifiable, I set aside my willful
    suspension of disbelief, and the book as well.
    
    len.