Conference noted::sf

I rather like the Draco Tavern stories.  Niven is best at coming up 
with clever ideas, and this format lets him present them without too 
much plot and character baggage.  The title story shows a nice 
relation between science and mortality, although I would think that 
any race that does engineering has to look for limits.  I also liked 
the story where the bartender joins the alien wolves on the hunt: "My 
evolution included a club."  
/jlr

RE: .0 -- It's more than a little annoying to put some work in a
review only to find that you've forgotten to note the title of one
story, and left out another one completely. I'd imagine it's probably
more than a little annoying to readers also.

                 My apple-polly-woggies.

The Steve Barnes/Larry Niven collab (the one I liked!) is named "The
Locusts." The story I left out altogether is "Spirals", the
Niven/Pournelle collab. As Niven mentions, it's close in theme to
Kingsbury's "Bringing Home The Steel." Well-written, man (in the generic
sense) against all odds story. For trivia buffs, there's some amusing
references to Robert Heinlein throughout the story.

There's a germ of a contest idea in that. Which real SF author has appeared
as a fictional character in the most books? Heinlein shows up in Anthony
Boucher's "Rocketship to the Morgue." Harlan Ellison appears in Norman
Spinrad's non-SF novel, "Passing Through The Flame." A bevy of authors,
including both Heinlein and Ellison show up in a Niven/David Gerrold
collaboration novel, which name escapes me at the moment ...

Send in your entries no later than January 1, 2001 and win a genuine
monopole! Void where prohibited by natural law.

Re .1 -- I guess that's what makes horse races interesting. As I said, I
think Niven's biggest weaknesses are in characterization and tone, two
elements important to my reading enjoyment. I still like to read Niven
because his ideas are so great. But would that Niven had a little leavening
of Ted Sturgeon. His stories would be *so* much better.

Fred Bals

The Niven/Gerrold book is "The Flying Sorcerors" (spelling not guaranteed)

RE: -1 : Yep. Thanks. While we're at it, does anyone remember the Ben 
Bova book, "THE STARCROSSED," a thinly disguised retelling of Ellison's
"STARLOST" travesty? One of the funniest books I've ever read.

     Score so far:    Ellison 3      Heinlein  2

Fred

I seem to remember a book called _Inferno_ (I think) that was a retelling
of Dante's Inferno which began at a science fiction convention. If My
memory is working right, I remember reading somewhere that the main
character was supposed to be Harlan. Well, Jerry?
kris

There was such a book called inferno.  Appropriately enough (for this note
anyway) that book was written by Niven (& Pournelle?).  Don't know about the
Ellison characterization (quite possible, but I tend to be thick in the head
when reading and don't notice these things).
					Mike

I had forgotten all about that one. I read "INFERNO" as a series in
the old GALAXY magazine. It was co-written by Niven and Pournelle.
That's the first time I've heard Ellison referred to as the main
character in that book, and I don't really remember anything that
would support that statement. Any collaborating opinions?

I *do* remember a great reference to Vonnegut in INFERNO, though.
Seems that there's this *really* garish casket in Hell with a flashing
neon sign reading, "SO IT GOES ... SO IT GOES." The narrator's guide,
(Benito Mussolini, as I remember) notes that the casket's inhabitant
had the talent to be a great writer, but had thrown it away.

While we're at it, I'll add "CATCH THAT ZEPPLIN" by Fritz Leiber 
(there's no rule that the reference can't be to yourself, right?), one
of the AMBER books by Zelazny (he appears as a dungeon-keeper working
on "a romantic novel shot through with elements of horror."), and
"Did you hear the one about ...?" by Spider Robinson, where a relative
of Philip Jose Farmer makes a guest appearence.

This is getting to be fun. Any more?

Fred

The main character of _Inferno_ was not Ellison (just some SF writer), but he 
(and several others) may have been present at the party.  If I can find my 
book, I'll look into it.

Beth

Asimov has a murder mystery _Murder at the ABA_ and a number of well known
SF personalities appear in it. I haven't read it since it came out, but
I clearly remember Harlan is in it.

Tamzen

Mrmmph! When I asked about SF authors appearing as characters I had
just bought Niven/Pournelle's, "FOOTFALL," but hadn't started reading
it yet.

I'm a few hundred pages into this big book now, and you're not going
believe some of the things going on in it!

A review will follow as a separate note when I've digested "FOOTFALL."
For now, consider this:

If you're faced with an alien invasion, who better to recruit as 
consulting "experts" on aliens than science fiction writers?

I am stretching my memory painfully, but I think Heinlens "Number of the 
Beast" contains a slew of authors and even other authors characters in the 
very end of his book .  Read it years ago, forgive the much abused brain 
cells, too many bottles of wine perhaps.....

Jon

RE: -1

Jon, anybody who could even *get* through that awful book hasn't
become completely wine-soaked. Yet. :-)

*Number of little beasties* (or whatever it's called) shouldn't 
be considered, as there's a lot of talking about authors in the
book (gawd, there's a lot of talking, period), but no appear, as
I remember. I know Ellison, Asimov and Heinlein himself are 
invited to the party, but we never get to see 'em.

Fred

INFERNO:	The way *I* heard it, the main character was a thinly-
		disguised version of Pournelle himself.

THE FLYING SORCERERS:	While several characters are named *after* sf
		authors and fan personalities, I don't think there was
		any intention of them actually *being* so.

ROCKET TO THE MORGUE:	Contained many more sf personalities than Heinlein.

There was a novel, a murder mystery published as sf (that appeared only in
hardcover that took place at the World SF Convention in Australia in 1975,
and contained many sf pros and fans (a friend of mine is described therein).
It's called CHARLES FORT NEVER MENTIONED WOMBATS, and it's by Robert (Buck)
Coulson and Gene DeWeese. The main character, a detective, also shows up in
NOW YOU SEE WE/IT/THEM by the same authors. Both books are very funny. Look
them up in your local library.

There's also a small-press-published novel by Joseph Payne Brennan and Donald
M. Grant called ACT OF PROVIDENCE that takes place at the first World Fantasy
Convention and includes a few familiar people. There are also a few similar
short stories (one by Philip Dick comes to mind, but I can't recall the title).

A few prominent sf fans also show up in LUCIFER'S HAMMER (by Niven & Pournelle)
and "What Can You Say About Chocolate-Covered Manhole Covers?" by Niven (in
his collection ALL THE MYRIAD WAYS.

This practice even has a name: "tuckerization", named after Wilson (Bob)
Tucker, who used to do it a lot (he hasn't written much recently).

--- jerry

In his collection, Melancholy Elephants, Spider Robinson has several references
to Heinlein.  Mostly, Heinlein is offstage, mentioned only in passing.  It 
should surprise no one that Spider includes his hero as often as possible, 
however...

- Chris

RE: .13 -- On "The Flying Sorcerors." I'll buy that the gods aren't
actual SF writers/fans (although Elcin, for instance, sure has
Harlan's personality). But I think you missed a march when you said
that none of the characters in the book were.

Consider the description of the main character. Then consider that
his electronic translator garbled his name. As I remember it said
something like, "As a ... color, a shade of purple."

Hmmm. Mauve is a shade of purple. "As a ... mauve," for instance?

On "Rocket to the Morgue" (thanks for correcting my error on the
title, btw), I remember reading that the characters are based on 
members of Heinlein's "Manana~" club, but I've never been able to 
find out who they were. Seems like there's somebody in the book that
resembles Bradbury. Am I right?

As I mentioned in a previous reply, Niven/Pournelle's new book "Footfall"
has a slew of writers in it, including themselves!

Fred

re:.-1

Nonsense. Purple *can't* be who you think he is. That particular author
can't stand flying. :-)

Seriously, just because a character has the same name as a real author
doesn't mean the character is supposed to *be* the author. In the other
cases we've mentioned, the characters *are* supposed to be thinly disguised
versions of the authors.

I've never been able to figure out all of the authors in ROCKET TO THE
MORGUE, either, but then it's been a long time since I read it.

--- jerry

RE: -1: *Purple* is Erica Jong????

You're right, jerry. Withdraw "Flying Sorcerors" from the list. To keep
my score up, I'll offer "Dhalgren" as a replacement. When the Kid looks
into a mirror at one point in the book, he sees as a reflection the
figure of Samuel R. Delaney (who incidently, is described as looking as
confused as the Kid [and probably the reader] feels at that point).

There's also an interesting reference to Joanna Russ' "The Female Man"
at the beginning of the book. Sometime I might try to open a discussion
of "Dhalgren." I was thinking as a title, "An annotated reference and
modal interpertation of leonine imagery in Dhalgren."

Either that or, "Fred looks at life."

Fred

By the way, let us not forget Kilgore Trout, from "Venus on the Half Shell"

And speaking of "reusing" characters, does anyone remember who "Col. Bald-

win" from "Friday" *originally* was?  And what does Friday's genetic makeup

have to do with *that* whole situation?

			The allways present (but seldom heard from)
						Ed E.

RE:.18 
"Col. Baldwin" was Kettle Belly Baldwin, King of the Kopters in _Gulf_ (one of
my all time favorite Heinlein stories). Friday shared some of Joe and Gail
Green's genes.

Tamzen

re: several back -- Someone mentioned that Harlan was a character in Asimov's
_Murder_at_the_ABA_... not strictly true.  The main character, Darius Just, 
is obviously based on Mr. Ellison, but Harlan (as Harlan) never appears.

Isaac, on the other hand, does make a cameo appearance in the novel.
	
					andrew

    RE: Footfall
    
    I have read Footfall and, knowing Niven/Pournelle's fondness for
    such things, figured they would never pass up the chance to make
    the Threat Team SF writers "in-joke" parodies of real writers--
    but I don't know writers' personalities enough to be able to recognize
    them in the novel.  Can anyone enlighten me to any of the Threat
    Team's "real identities"?  (Without any other input, I'll just have
    to go with my original assumption that Hairy Red is actually Niven
    himself... :-)
    
    Matt
    

    Well the chief honcho whose name escapes me at the moment (ex navy
    etc) just has to be Robert Heinlen.
    
    The female 'pacifist' writer included on the threat team, I would
    suggest is Anne Mcaffery (sic).
    
    
    Stan.

        I wrote a reply to this yesterday, and then cancelled it
        figuring there'd quickly be a more authoritative reply...
        whereas I don't recall even the names of those I could identify,
        and I couldn't identify all of them anyway.
        
        Since the only other reply so far is distinctly
        non-authoritative, I'll give it a try myself:
        
        .22 is definately correct about the "head honcho", Anson,
        being Heinlein.  Not only does the character fit perfectly,
        but Anson is Heinlein's middle name (ergo "RAH").
        
        The collaborators, the miltary one and the scientific one,
        have to be Pournelle and Niven (in order) themselves.
        
        I think a few others were familiar, but I can't recall who.
        
        	/dave

    Since I haven't read FOOTFALL yet, I don't know all the members
    of the team to begin with, let alone who they might be. I can
    guarantee the identity of two of them from the names, though.
    "Anson MacDonald" is definitely Heinlein. As Dave points out,
    Anson is Heinlein's middle name. "Anson MacDonald" is also a
    pseudonym that Heinlein used back in the 40's in ASTOUNDING.
    "Wade Curtis" is Jerry Pournelle, as that name is one that
    Pournelle has used as a pseudonym here and there.
    
    --- jerry

    Maybe we should just vote on the Threat Team's (Dreamer Fithp's)
    real identities, since the authors can always declare us wrong by
    vigorous assertion ... anyway, my votes ...
    
    Robert Anson ......... Robert Anson Heinlein (reasons in previous notes)
    Nathaniel Reynolds ... Larry Niven (probably Harry Reddington too)
    Joe Ransom ........... Joe Haldeman or Dean Ing (attitude)
    Wade Curtis .......... Jerry Pournelle (cf 230.24)
    Bob Burnham .......... Robert Forward (white hair)
    Sherry Atkinson ...... <too ill-defined to guess>
    
    Sherry Atkinson stutters, so if anyone knows of a woman SF writer
    who does, that would be a good guess.