Conference noted::sf

Why do we need another bloody notesfile????  Science Fiction and
Science Fantasy are but two sides of the same coin; into whoch would
you suggest we put reviews of (for example) the Varley "Gaea"(sp) 
novels??????

I spend half my bloody life chasing information thru various notesfiles
("Oh that should be in the 'Science Fiction after 1900 but before 1920'
notesfile on MUMBLE::"); let's keep it all together.

If you want a notesfile on WIND, might I suggest that the SOAPBOX is
looking for a new home!!!

Sorry for the flame
Nigel

First of all, I've had several people thank me for pointing out works of 
fantasy for them. A couple have mentioned it would be easier to have a 
separate Notesfile for fantasy. Therefore I have set one up. If no one 
wants to use it, that's OK.

Re: SOAPBOX

WIND is a 11/750 with 2 Megs of memory and 17 installed products. It
wouldn't be able to handle the resources required by SOAPBOX and still
be of use to ENO. I don't expect a high volume of users for the Fantasy
notesfile. If there is, it will have to be moved. 

If you are so worried about SOAPBOX, you find it a home on your system.

<Flame off>

MartyJ

I agree with Nigel. What is the need for a separate file? Keeping Fantasy 
in here may recommend some good books to people who consider themselves 
hard core SF and vice versa. It's not as if this file was growing at such a 
rate as to be unmanageable. Given the time delays in start up when reading 
any notes file one more on such a close topic is unnecessary.

Please reconsider

Tim

Sorry, Marty, but I'm afraid that I have to agree with Nigel and Tim.

(1) In my experience, a vast majority of sf/fantasy readers read and
enjoy *both*. To separate the two into different files seems to me
to be unnecessarily inconvient to those people.

(2) For those people who *don't* like one or the other, they can simply
SINCE past the notes about the genre that they don't cre about. Person-
ally, I'm not much of a one for fantasy, but I'd just as soon read about
it here than have to go to another file.

(3) [This is more of a scream of anguish, so don't take it personally.]

I'm really getting sick and tired of the relatively recent trend amongst
sf fans to turn their noses down on fantasy. As I said, I don't care
that much for fantasy (Tolkien bored me to tears, for example), but as
far as I'm concerned, sf, fantasy, and horror are all siblings in the
family of Fantastic Literature. Fantasy is beginning to be treated as
"second-class", and I don't like that idea one bit. Let's not have
"separate-but-equal" nonsense here.

Please? Pretty please?

--- jerry

OK, you win. Us fantasy lovers will put up with your SF "insults" [:-)].
I'll get rid of the notesfile.

MartyJ

No! No! NO!

Why should I have to since through all that fantasy stuff people
might want to put in here?  It's a waste of my time.
Note files should be for very specific topics so that people
can select exactly which topics they are interested in and follow
the discussions on that topic.  They should not have to read
about all sorts of things and hunt for the items they're interested in.

Also, you should not make a final decision after only a few days and
3 replies.  There are some of us here who have work to do and
can only get to read note files once a week or two.  [And when I *do*
get to look at this note file every two weeks, I hope I will only
find science finction in it, otherwise I may stop trying to follow it
at all.]

Now clearly fantasy is related to science fiction and many people like
both; but

(a) not ALL people like both
(b) they are different things
(c) the name of this note file is SF.NOT (not SFAF.NOT)

So I would suggest that a separate fantasy note file be set up.

The problem with trying to separate them is defining what is which.
Going by your response to Sam(13)'s response to the "Suggestions",
you apparently consider DUNE and McCaffrey's Dragonriders series to
be fantasy rather than sf. I don't. They are sf. And what about, oh,
Stephen King's books? I consider many of them (eg. CARRIE, FIRESTARTER,
THE DEAD ZONE) to be sf, not fantasy. Others may disagree. Or how
about LORD OF LIGHT? I call it sf, but others may call it fantasy. I
can see valid arguments for both.

As I've said before, in general, I don't care for fantasy, but I still
think its place is here.

As an tangential point, it bothers me that CD's have a separate notefile
from AUDIO, and LASERDISC is separate from VIDEO. I'd rather *not* have
to go elsewhere.

--- jerry

Sigh.  The Usenet we "need/don't need" a "net.foo" arrives at NOTES.

In my opinion, the dividing line between Science Fiction and Fantasy is
too fine to worry about.

And NOTES11 makes it very easy to skip past unwanted discussions.  (Gee,
just like the 'n' key...)

					John

And what abut those stories that are both (like the Blue Adept series by
Anthony)?  Discuss them in both? Too much redundancy.

Beth

Re:.6

The file is still there, I haven't deleted it yet, but the response has 
been overwhelming negative that I will be getting rid of it soon.
Getting rid of the file is low on my to do list. 

I agree with Stan -- we should stick as closely as possible to science
fiction.  I don't think anyone will complain if a given book is a
borderline case.  But there are many, many fantasy books that are
pure fluff.  I don't have time to read even 10% of the science fiction
I'd like to, so I'd rather not wade through discussions of fantasy.

What, exactly, is the difference you ask?  That's a tough one.  I
don't object to psi powers or even magic in a science fiction story.
Thus I consider Heinlein's "Magic Inc." and McCaffrey's Dragonrider
novels to be science fiction.  I do object to fantasy worlds in which
*anything* can happen.  I want the author to make some changes in the
parameters of the universe, then run some characters through it.  I
don't want the author to create a free-for-all universe with gods, Gods,
witches, warlocks, wizards, and who knows what else throwing slings and
arrows of outrageous fortune at the protagonists.

JP

Now, now! Do I misinterpret your remarks, or are you saying that the
works of fantasy that you happen to like, you consider science fiction?
Or that the only good works of fantasy ARE science fiction? Piffle!

And do you deny that there are also a good many "fluff" SF books out
there? The fact that poor examples of any genre exist should not condemn
the genre as a whole.

If your point is simply that you dislike pressing the SINCE key once
every three weeks or so - and that appears to be the frequency of fantasy
discussions in this file - please say so, and kindly desist from this
practice of assuming that science fiction is a higher form of art than
fantasy.

-b

Sorry, I guess I didn't make myself clear.  First off, I've enjoyed many
"pure" fantasy stories.  Second, I certainly would not deny that there are
many "fluff" SF books.  I'd just rather weed out the fluff from a smaller
list of books.

This is actually pretty funny -- your remarks about my judgement of
the difference between the two genres remind me of arguments I have
with others about the difference between mainstream fiction and SF.
You know -- "That's not science fiction; it's *good*."  I've heard
this said about Vonnegut's better efforts.

Now, can we talk about what's right/wrong with the current crop of fantasy
literature?  I used to read a lot more of fantasy but it seems to me that the
quality has declined since the 1960's, for the reasons I mentioned in
my previous response.  If, in the author's universe,  anything at all
can happen at any time, why do I need to read the book?  I've got an
imagination of my own, after all...

I wouldn't mind being proven wrong.  Can you recommend some good, recent
fantasy?  [No doubt you can.  But where will you post your recommendation?]

JP

"And what would you say," asked she wryly, "if I recommended
John Varley's Titan-Wizard-Demon trilogy as good fantasy?"

I am not sure that I agree that there is fault with an anything-can-happen
universe; after all, "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" manages to deal
with that extremely well, and the Xanth books also seem to treat pretty
effectively with major chaos. The trend that I have seen in recent fantasy
appears to be a result of the commercial success of fantasy books, movies
and games - and commercial success nearly always indicates a loss of overall
quality by increasing the number of people interested in trying to get in
on the gold rush. [This isn't confined to books and movies, either. Poodles,
German Shepards, and Siamese cats are among the animals to be overbred to
the point of lunacy when the breeds became popular.]

I dislike fantasy books which are obviously done by formula; they seem
to have been generated by the same word-processing program that turns out
those interminable numbers of romances. Take some barbarian heros or
heroines, some randomly-determined magic (the magic is always the hardest
part to deal with), and generate some unusual names; then start calling
horses "riding beasts" and sheep "wool beasts", to remind the reader that
this is a fantasy; take the simplest version of the heroic-quest plot you
can find, and then add descriptive text, love scenes, and so on until
the book is long enough.

I'll have to go check my library for suggestions for recent titles. One
that I found memorable is Patricia McKillip's "Forgotten Beasts of Eld",
a very nice work that incorporated some solid, interesting characters
and a respectable plot as well as some of the best elements of true
fantasy. (This one is several years old; by "recent", did you mean since
Tolkien's heyday, or within the past few years?)

-b

		Hi guys, sorry I'm late, lotsa homework.

		And to take a cue from you-know-who...

	FLAME ON!!!!!(pretty neat huh?)
		
		I fail to see the reason why SOME people feel that
	SF and F are so incredibly different. Both are fiction, and
	both are usually (I'll be sorry I said this) set in a time
	other than our own. Having a fantasy notesfile would defeat
	the basic purpose of this file, to share ideas and to talk
	(is that the right word?) about different books, authors,
	and themes. A fantasy notesfile would necessitate the creation
	of a horror file,a hard SF file,a soft SF file, an Asimov
	file, a short story file, and countless other files that
	could gunk up the systems so people would spend more time
	typing in file names than typing in responses. In the 
	summer I might be the only one who would have that kind of
	time, and I'm in school now. There are just too many in-
	betweens to categorize.
				Back to Geometry

					sam(13...14)

	p.s Wow... lotsa new writers

Right on, Sam! (Should I be wishing you a Happy Birthday?)

Actually, concerning this "anything can happen nonsense", I'd like to see some
examples of recent fantasy books *in which* "anything can happen", I mean
*really* anything can happen.

On the other hand, there are numerous works of fantasy in which the author has
put a strict set of rules on the uses of magic or whatever. Try Niven's Warlock
stories. They are *full* of all sorts of magical creatures, but which all obey
a strict set of physical laws. Randall Garrett treats magic as a science in his
Lord Darcy books. George Martin, in FEVRE DREAM, creates a scientific rationale
for vampires, as does Whitley Strieber in THE HUNGER. Strieber also does the
same for werewolves in THE WOLFEN.

The point is that to say "Let's not discuss fantasy here, just sf" implies that
one would rather discuss bad sf rather than good fantasy. That seems silly to
me. I don't see why people can't just SINCE past discussions of fantasy, just
as I do when I encounter a note about Tolkien or Heinlein (unless I feel like
stirring things up by interjecting my opinions on those writers...)

--- jerry

Just a quick comment on deciding which a book fits into.

	In a store I recently was in, they had tried to separate the SF from 
the FANTASY. Boy, what a mess!! Even the publishers don't agree with 
themselves!!!! Example - Anne McCaffery's Dragonriders series was SPLIT 
between the two!! The SAME publisher had marked some of them SF and some 
FANTASY!!! 

	I agree that they are both facets of the same thing and should be 
discussed (or even cussed?) in a common notes file!

	/s/	Bob

It's nice to see that the cool weather has awakened everybody!
This file hasn't seen this kind of action since the Gremlins overran the
Temple of Doom.

To the point: I don't believe in fragmenting Notes files.  We have had enough
trouble getting submissions to make the file worth checking every three
days, so why exile potential writers?  I generally don't like (what has
been referred to me as) fantasy, but I'd rather start to read some notes
on Harriet Author's mystical Twiffle-world than another "hey, what are the
ten greatest SF stories of all times" lists.  I'm willing to Since past both
(and now that I've found Notes-11, I can actually do that).
It's a multi-media world, fans.  Just call it Speculative Fiction, as it
was for a while in the '60s, and let's keep covering all the bases.

You want controversy?  Let's consider the point of view that if it's
written by a woman or has major woman characters, it will be more widely
believed to be fantasy than science fiction.  <THIS IS NOT AN ADVOCACY
POSITION ON MY PART, or in other words, don't kill the messenger.>

- tom]

Ok, Ok -- I give up.  There is not enough traffic in this notes file
to warrant a separate file for fantasy.

FYI, Beth Ravan and I took our conversation offline and went a couple
more rounds on definitions of fantasy and sf.  What fun!  But why did
you stop replying to my mail, Beth?

As I explained to Beth, I like fantasy.  Tolkien's Trilogy is perhaps my
all-time favorite tome.  But I do not like the schlock that has been appearing
in the fantasy category for the past five years.  Beth was kind enough to
recommend some good fantasy; I'd be grateful for other recommendations...

JP

    out on the limb he went...
    
    Master of the Five Magics, Secret of the Sixth Magic. {can't remember
    the auth.... Lyndon Hardy}  not great, but good
    
    Thieves' world series
    
    an author who writes about a cosmos where *anything* can and does
    happen (except HHGTTG) is just a bad writer. Good Fantasy does set
    up the initial conditions and sticks with them.
    Where do you put Chalker's Soul Rider series?
    
    sm

    where do you put Chalker in general??? The Well World Series
    forexample, or the River of the Dancing Gods???Sf or F??

    I filed RoDG under SF, if that's any help.  It is the only Chalker
    I own, which doesn't help.

    	This is probably a silly question, but since it was never confirmed
    either way, I'm going to ask it anyway:
    
    	Does the FANTASY Conference still exist in some form or another,
    or was it cast into the Pit of Eternal Deletions?  Just curious...
    
    	Larry
    

    
    Try CLT::FRP.  I think that's the correct location.
    
    						-SK
    

    	Yes, but this is for role playing games.  I was under the
    impression that the old Conference was primarily about fantasy
    literature.
    
    	And I'm not even into the genre...
    

    I'm sure that it eventually died. I'm pretty sure Marty Johnson
    doesn't even work for DEC anymore.
    
    Even if it's still alive and kicking somewhere, it'd have to be
    in the old Notes format. :-)
    
    --- jerry

    So, how do we start one up?  Or do we take a 'portion' of this one
    and devote it to those of us who also think SF can stand for
    (speculative fiction, science fiction, and superior fantasy)?  :-)
    
    Kim
    (Who will read *anything* well-written but who is partial to *anything*
    written under the full moon or out in the ozone layer...)
    
    And is it possible that there would be interest enough for a horror
    notesfile?
    
    K
    

    Re .27 (Kim):
    
    Anyone with an inclination to do so, particularly if she or he would
    be willing to act as moderator, could start one.  He or she would
    check with the system manager of whatever available system, and
    establish a file for the purpose.  This would then me made public
    and people could participate. 
    
    Any file should have at least two moderators, to cover contingencies
    such as illness, vacation, death, or reassignment.
    
    A good fantasy notesfile sounds welcome to me.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Or how about a Lord of the Rings notes file?   The SF note 89 is
    pretty large....
    
    				=ELB=
    

    I'll talk to my systems manager about being the home moderator.
     If that isn't possible, I'd be willing to be back-up moderator.
     (I've never done this sort of thing before, she told her fellow
    noters.   :-)   )
    
    Kim
    

    But Kim, do we really need one?  I mean, what will we do, rip out
    all the fantasy stuff in this conference?  Start it over (with
    duplications galore)?  Although there have been some religious
    arguments regarding whether or not fantasy should be allowed here,
    it seems that it has been accepted.  Also, where would you put
    something like the Pern books?  What is that, fantasy or SF?
    
    			    =ELB=

    I tend to agree that it's probably not needed, but, on the other
    hand, if the resources are available, I'd say give it a shot and
    let the public decide. For instance, I had doubts about the need for a 
    conference specifically devoted to Stephen King, given the BOOKS and
    SF conferences, but CASTLE_ROCK is doing well.
    
    And Pern is definitely High Fantasy masquerading as SF. :-)
    
    Fred

    Re .31 (ELB):
    
    If Kim thinks a separate Fantasy notesfile is warranted, why not?
    Its viability would be a function of participation.
    
    There seem to be two schools of thought: those who separate science
    fiction from fantasy and those who rather blur them.  Sometimes,
    BTW, it's a matter of perception: we might all agree that _From
    the Earth to the Moon_ [for its day], "Requiem" (by Heinlein), and
    _A Fall of Moondust_ are all science fiction, and that _Conan, the
    Conqueror_, _The Blue Star_, and _Something Wicked This Way Comes_
    are fantasies; however, there may be serious differences of opinion
    on some middle ground (e.g., _The Stand_) stuff.
    
    It could be that there's room for both conferences, if people are
    more comfortable that way.  The Fantasy-related notes need not be
    uprooted; nor, for that matter, does there necessarily have to be
    a lot of duplication: if fantasy is being discussed
    _contradistinctionally_ to science fiction, the writings there
    would be from a significantly different perspective.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Okay, I get the message!   I bow to both the existance of a Fantasy
    conference, and to the superior vocabulary of .-1!   ;-)
    
    And I'll gladly add it to my notebook!

    Let us know, Kim.
    
    				=ELB=

    I'm still fighting with the powers-that-be over whether we actually
    need one.  One group keeps thinking I mean write-it-yourself (a.k.a.
    PROSE) while another group is wondering whether we have room on
    disc for another non-work-related conference.
    
    I've no problem with upping the ante here, gentlepeople.  I love
    science fiction, fantasy, dark fantasy, horror, speculative fiction,
    and every bit of writing that can infiltrate, permeate, insinuate,
    cram, force, or tickle its way in-between.  Until and unless we
    do actually get room, let's concentrate on expanding the fantasy
    discussion here.  We may get a large ovation from other science
    fiction readers who have yet to be introduced (happily) to the
    water-color nuances of good fantasy.
    
    I already foresee a dandy argument when we discuss that one!
    
    Kim
    
    

>    I'm still fighting with the powers-that-be over whether we actually
>    need one.  One group keeps thinking I mean write-it-yourself (a.k.a.
>    PROSE) while another group is wondering whether we have room on
>    disc for another non-work-related conference.
    

I would like to keep it the same.  I enjoy both SF and Fantasy, and think it
should be kept together.  If not only for the interest of both parties, but
for information as well.  If a reader is looking for book they cannot remember,
it would be easier to look in one file - not two.  After all, isn't the SF
and Fantasy section always in the same place at the book stores?
It's simple to generate a fantasy topic by just typing one in.  However, it 
would be appropriate to change the name of the file to SF/FANTASY.

Mike_L

    
    Just to add to the discussion -
    
    what is the difference between sf and fantasy??
    
    grins,
    
    clark.
    
    ps - I have been reading both for over 13 years and have a fairly
    good idea, but it is a fun rathole to explore...
    

      Re .37
      
      There is a discussion on the differences between science fiction
      and fantasy in note 27.
      
      Dave C.

    Re .38 (Dave C):
    
    There's a much more comprehensive (and hence, potentially exhausting)
    discussion in Note 194, which has more than 160 responses.
    
    Re content: If there's a separate Fantasy conference, my opinion
    is it ought to discuss fantasy and its works rather than being
    a creative workshop for budding authors.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    >Re content: If there's a separate Fantasy conference, my opinion
    >is it ought to discuss fantasy and its works rather than being
    >a creative workshop for budding authors. 
    
    Not to mention that such a conference already exists (MLOKAI::PROSE).
    
    Fred

    At this point, it might be appropriate to actually go back to
    discussing fantasy, rather than the fantasy notesfile.  I'm ready,
    willing, and able, having recently saturated myself with goodies
    from some of the dark-fantasy people:  Yarbro, Lee, Card.
    
    Also, help!  Where do we get a chance to discuss the genre-blenders,
    the writers who lapse into nightmare country?  I'm reading a collection
    of Richard Christian Matheson's work right now, and am desperate
    to discuss it with someone who'd enjoy it!
    
    Kim  (who hasn't heard anything from User Support about starting
    the new notesfile, and has gathered that it's not really wanted...)
    
    

    Well, for what it's worth, I think this conference should stay the
    way it is, mainly because I don't like the often curt "This should
    be in XXXXconference" you get....and I don't want to hop all over
    the place.  I got enough notesfiles to look at as it is.
    
                                                   ---kim

    re:.41
    
    As far as *I'm* concerned (speaking as a "jes' plain folks" *and*
    a moderator -- though I don't know how my co-mod's feel), this
    conference is titled "SF" for convenience's sake. I consider the
    "true name" of the conference to be something like "Fantastic
    Literature", and feel that sf, fantasy, *and* horror all have a
    place here.
    
    Actually, from a co-moderator point of view, I'm inclined to keep
    discussion of horror to a minimum in this conference only because,
    in general, horror fiction doesn't have quite the crossover reader-
    ship that sf and fantasy do. As I recall, there was a brief debate
    in CASTLE_ROCK about whether to expand that notesfile's focus to
    include horror fiction in general. Though there are a couple of
    notes about "other horror authors", the feeling there was pretty
    much to keep the focus of that file to Stephen King.
    
    If you, Kim, or anyone else, started topics on specific horror
    writers or novels, I would read and contribute to them. My only
    concern is not wanting to "flood" this file with topics and/or
    conferees who are solely oriented toward horror fiction. There are
    certainly many "crossover" writers that "belong" here. You already
    mentioned Richard Christian Matheson, but there are also Richard
    Matheson (RCM's father), Fritz Leiber, Robert Bloch, H.P. Lovecraft,
    Dean Koontz, George R.R. Martin, F. Paul Wilson, Stephen King,
    K.W. Jeter, ad infinitum. Even Poul Anderson and Katherine Kurtz
    have written at least one horror novel each.
    
    --- jerry

       I can't really justify my attitude as much of the fantasy (and
       the SF for that matter) has it's share of gruesome moments when
       monsters or evil beings seem about to vanquish our heros. Having
       said that....

       I don't care to have this made into a forum for "horror" stories.
       Certainly anyone can enter a note on whatever book they want but
       I hope that this doesn't become a primary function of this file.
       I dislike "blood and guts" chainsaw type movies and graphic
       descriptions of evil incarnate preying on innocents. Maybe it's
       just cause I'm the superstious sort that gets nightmares from
       this sort of novel. liesl

    Re .44 (leisl):
    
       >I don't care to have this made into a forum for "horror" stories.
       
    The Stephen King file can do that if necessary.
    
    There are a bunch of good fantasy books that have little horror
    component.  These include:
    
    The Blue Star
    The Mislaid Charm
    Night Life of the Gods
    The Harold Shea trilogy (Incomplete Enchanter, Castle of Iron, and
                             Wall of Serpents)
    Tales From Gavagan's Bar
    A Medicine for Melancholy
    Tailchaser's Song
    The Stray Lamb
    The Moon Pool
    Face in the Abyss
    The Ship of Ishtar
    
    ... for instance.
    
    The question was whether a separate fantasy notes conference should
    be started.  Why not?  If there's little interest, it'd go away;
    if not, it could complement this one.  There would be overlaps,
    true, but there are overlaps in other Conferences, and by highlighting
    the fantasy-only aspect of the file, it might bring to light more
    obscure works that might otherwise go unnoticed.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    <--(.45)
    
    The Shea books have a *horror* component????

    re:.46
    
    He said they have *little* horror component, which, I suppose,
    can be taken to mean that they have *some*, but I'm sure that
    that is not what Steve intended.
    
    On the other hand, it might depend on what one considers horrifying...
    
    --- jerry

    Re .45:
    
    "Night Life of the Gods"? Also, if memory serves me correctly, "The
    Stray Lamb"? As in, by Thorne Smith? If so, he was a brilliant whacko,
    and only one of his books that I remember had a horror component.
    That was his last book ("I Married a Witch", or something like that),
    and he didn't finish it, someone else did. I thought I could tell
    exactly where Smith left off, the tone changed sharply.
    
    His "Turnabout" was the first of Smith's books that I read. I can
    remember sitting there frequently laughing out loud, something I
    rarely do, no matter how much I enjoy a book.
    
    Granted, with a different approach to some of his subjects, a horror
    component could be developed.
    
    - Richard

    re:.48
    
    Yes, he was talking about Thorne Smith. Wonderfully crazy stuff.
    
    His last book was THE PASSSIONATE WITCH, which was completed by
    Norman Matson. Matson later wrote a sequel, BATS IN THE BELFREY.
    
    --- jerry

    Re .last_few:
    
    By "little" I meant as "minuscule amount."  The only really
    "horror"-like scene in _The Stray Lamb_, for instance, was when
    our hero was a dog in the company of a man who was dying.
    
    _The Passionate Witch_ did shift tome most abruptly, so we can see
    where Smith died; the ending was more pat than he'd have done it.
    
    Somehow, the final scener in _Night Life of the Gods_ was disquieting,.
    if amusing.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    re: Liesl et al.
    
    As you can break down science fiction into several categories (IMHO
    such as: philosophic, hard-science, humorous, creature-of-the-week,
    distopic, utopic, socio-political, and more), and can break down
    fantasy into at least as many categories, you can also break down
    horror into several categories.
    
    [flame on]
    I *hate* splatter films; I hide my face when I see the *gooshy*
    parts coming.  I LOVE horror.  Well-done horror.  I love the
    psychological, philosophic, socio-political fantasy and SF.  As
    a rule, most of the high-tech stuff escapes me (I don't have the
    background for some of it).  I will defend to the death anyone's
    right to discuss any and all of this.  When an author has written
    a work that is (at least) cousin to this Notesfile, and the work
    has affected Gentle Reader, Gentle Reader does herself, the author,
    and some of the other GRs of this Notesfile to discuss it.
    [flame off]
    
    Since so few of us read, so few of us support bookstores, we owe
    it to ourselves and our fellow readers and our writers to give voice
    when we find something noteworthy.
    
    I am as proud to say that I read Tanith Lee, Steve Rasnic Tem, Harlan
    Ellison, Richard Christian Matheson, M. R. James, as I ever was
    to say I read the greats and near-greats of mainstream.  Beware,
    Mr. Moderator--Kim will be opening a few new topics soon.
    
    Vita brevis, ars longa.
    
    Kim
    
    

    Re .51 (Kim):
    
    >I *hate* splatter films; I hide my face when I see the *gooshy*
    >parts coming.  I LOVE horror.  Well-done horror.  I love the
    >psychological, philosophic, socio-political fantasy and SF. 
     
    Well, a "splatter film" is hardly ever also a horror film.  Horror
    is far more than Grand Guginol (sp?): the most horrifying moment
    in the book, _Conjure Wife_ was when the wife informer her husband
    he was too late, nor was a drop of blood spilled.  Stephen King
    said something on the order of he likes to horrify; if he can't
    do that, he likes to terrify; and if he can't do that, he goes for
    the gross-out.  A splatter film is a gross-out; though even so,
    this can be done fairly well.  One superb horror film is _The
    Haunting_, taken from the even better Shirley Jackson book, _The
    Haunting of Hill House_.  Not one drop of blood, and even better
    than Lovecraft, nothing Sinister onstage.   A merely good horror
    film, _From Beyond_ (built from the Lovecraft short of the same
    name) has a little blood, but what makes it work is the situation.
    The most successful horror-slasher meld was _A Nightmare on Elm
    Street_ [I], but it was the exception.  The _best_ horror-inducing
    film concerning anything resembling a slasher was Hitchcock's _Psycho_,
    written by Robert Bloch -- and there was little blood in it (and
    what was there really was chocolate syrup).
    
    If you want to discuss horror films, you might also like to browse
    through the MOVIES conference, which can be added to your notebook
    with "SEL" or KB7.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Steve:
    
    You're preaching to the converted.  I understand the differences;
    I had forgotten the term "Grand Guinol".  I was trying to encourage
    Liesl and others who are timid about reading horror that horror
    doesn't *necessarily* mean blood-and-guts.
    
    I'm a Shirley Jackson fan from way back, and loved the movie even
    though it lacks 90% of the impact of the book.
    
    I agree about _Conjure Wife_.  There again, one might break horror
    down into categories.  Intelligent, quiet horror has its charms.
    So, occasionally, does GG.  I wouldn't house-break my dog on one
    of John Saul's novels... but I know many people who like (IMnotveryHO)
    'junk food' or 'trash' horror.
    
    Part of the argument for including horror in this file could be
    that it gives us a chance to push for the 'good' authors and editors.
    My best friend loves horror and can read anything, and she says
    that there are only two kinds of horror lovers--(1) those who think
    "Texas Chain Saw Massacre" was brilliant" and (2) those who think
    it's not.  What's-his-name, Toby ------, wrote a brilliant forward
    to one of the most enjoyable horror anthologies I've read--Silent
    Scream.  I'm not sure whether he was actually involved in choosing
    the stories, but...  ...and I *hated* what little of TCSM I could
    see.
    
    The moment of frisson happens when and where it does, and it doesn't
    have to be invoked using blood.
    
    Sorry, I guess I feel very strongly about this!  And we can get
    pretty muddy defining horror versus terror, etc., etc.
    
    Kim
    

    Toby Hooper ???

    re. 54 and 55:
    
    Yes.  Right.  Thanks.
    
    I can *never* remember the spelling of GG.  Hooper, yes.
    
    :-)
    
    

            <<< Note 141.54 by BMT::BOWERS "Count Zero Interrupt" >>>
                           -< That's Grand Guignol >-

yes, but what does it mean???? liesl    

    Re .57 (liesl):
    
    Grand Guignol was a French stage production in which people were
    apparently tortured and mutilated (e.g., a person could be cut deeply
    and blood would appear to flow; an ear or nose could be sliced off;
    etc.).  It was very popular through the 1950s and started to wane
    in the 1960s.  I understand the Paris one closed up shop in the
    1970s, never to reopen.
                   
    Actually, after the very real atrocities committed by the Nazis
    during World War II, there was little need to present ersatz ones
    on stage.
    
    Of course, now the movies can outdo anything on the stage of that
    era; our special effects have come a long way -- and you can even
    have closeups.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

       Steve, thanks for the explanation (I think), yuk! I guess I just
       spent too much time working the ER and seeing real blood and guts
       to like seeing it in my fiction - I especially hate what everyone
       has been calling splatter films.

       To explain myself a bit, I don't think fiction (science or
       otherwise) needs to avoid the horrors of war or bloodshed. We
       need to be reminded that where battles are held dead people are
       usually the result. What I object to is (IMHO here) the shedding
       of blood for strictly gross out purposes. The evil incarnate
       being that slaughters with no reason has no plot benefit that I
       can see. At least lets have villians who act for a reason.

       I suppose it says something about us a species that we like
       battle stories (myself included) so well. Certainly in fantasy we
       seem to hang out in the medieval time frame and I love it (not
       that I'd probably have liked living there really). Even in
       regular SF we often have story lines that predict weapons that
       force us back into one on one killing rather than mass planetary
       slaughter. Perhaps this is because we find some sort of honor in
       the face to face fight. Though I suppose anyone who had been in
       the trenches of WWI might find that a bogus thought. liesl
       

    � The evil being that slaughters with no reason has no plot
    benefit that I can see. �
    
    It depends on the plot. If the film you are making is about an
    evil being that slaughters with no reason, then the "plot
    benefit" is clear. Unfortunately, there are all too many people
    in this world who slaughter with no reason (Charles Starkweather,
    the Texas Tower Sniper, leaps to mind).
    
    --- jerry

    Sorta approaching the subject again, one thing that can be done
    in a pure-fantasy file is to comb the term to its finer bits.  For
    instance, some stories are now characterized by their publishers
    as "high fantasy"; Vance's _Lyonesse_ [why do I think of a potato
    side dish ...?  never mind] and its sequel are termed thus.  The
    fairly recent film, _Land of Faraway_, apparently a joint venture
    of Sweden and the USSR, was another form of fantasy, the hoary "fairy
    tale."
    
    Although I've discussed the film in the MOVIES file, I'll do so
    here, too, as an example of its genre.
    
    Point is, the more specialized you are, the more nit-picking you
    can be.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Please; I don't see publishers getting it right either.  Rather
    put the word "Fantasy" after the topic title so the fantasy folks
    can find 'em & decide for themselves.  Then all ya gotta do is refer 
    them to the "what-is-SF-and-what-is-Fantasy" topic....
                                                          
    						Don (who wouldn't use
    						a Fantasy file--yes,
    						I know; all the more
    						reason to start one--
    						and might miss a good
    						one.