Conference noted::sf

I now understand the mystery of the missing characters.  What I meant to say
was:  Is there another notes file on this subject, or is it just too widely
read to be of interest?

I don't know about anyone else, but I would like to see people's comments
on Tolkien's work.  After all, LOTR wasn't the ONLY thing he wrote... (just
one of the better ones...)

My only concern with literary criticism applies not only to Tolkien's 
works, but to most works of fiction. All too often, it seems to me, a 
critic will take someone's work and "interpret" it to fit his or her 
"pet" theory. I have seen poor Frodo described as "Everyman" and 
Christ. Granted, some of these interpretations may be valid, and may 
even be what Tolkien had in mind, but it has always struck me as a 
rather bloodless way of looking at a piece of fiction.
Each time I've read LOTR (I lost count when I hit triple figures)
I've gotten something new and different out of it. Yet I don't feel 
compelled to foist my opinions on the world, as THE only "correct" 
interpretation.
The preceding opinions sound harsh. I don't want to preclude 
discussion. I simply ask that any opinion, my own included, not be 
taken TOO seriously.

					andrew

	I think one of the reasons there hasn't been much entered herein
	about LOTR is that there's not much to say about perfection except
	"Wow". It sets a standard that Fantasy will spend decades trying to
	catch up with. I loved it, read it five times, saw the Movies,
	read everything else in print by the same author, did the typical
	Tolkein trip.

	If you want to start a hot fire going, just mention the following -
	Tolkein was a homosexual, an addict, etc. There's evidence that both
	were true, but I could care less. His books were great.

re:.3  Many people try to place interpretations upon LOTR. Tolkien was 
annoyed at that.  In his foreword, he states LOTR is not an allegory, that
it's a story told for its own sake.

One of the things that affects me most about LOTR is the profound sense of
loss that pervades the book.  The loss of the grandeur and beauty of the
first age, the loss of the elves of the third age, the loss of Frodo's
ability to enjoy life.  No where in the book does a character live "happily
ever after". (Sam probably comes the closest). In the appendices, each 
character's life is followed to it's end.  Arwen's ending is heartbreaking!
Most fantasies usually leave it up to the reader to determine if the
characters live happily ever after, LOTR does not and this only accentuates
the sense of loss.

Re .5: I agree. A curious thing that struck me during one of my 
readings is the sense of "weather". The next time you read LOTR, 
pay attention to Tolkien's description of the weather. You will notice 
that you can write a meteorlogical description of EVERY day.

					andrew

  I loved the Lord of the Rings ever since I first read it 17 years ago, and
  now that my children are reading it, it's time to do it again.

To understand the "sense of loss" in Tolkien's writing, it's important
to understand that the books were born in concept during the WWII period.
Tolkien, living in England was watching a world decay. 

		bob wyman

How about if I (killjoy that I am at times) interject that
LOTR bored me silly. I was more interested in the background
world than I was in the characters or plot. But then, that
style of fantasy doesn't excite me all that much anyways.
What's really frustrating is that Ralph Bakshi's film ended
at almost exactly the point that I gave up in THE TWO TOWERS.
Oddly enough, though, I've read THE HOBBIT twice, and enjoyed
it both times.

--- jerry

Re .8

Actually, the idea for LOTR was born quite a while prior to WWII. Tolkein
first wrote "The Silmarillion" (or the first draft - he was constantly
updating his works, and never really finished any to his satisfaction),
and conceived of LOTR as a way of introducing his writings on the First
Age.  I remember feeling what a pity it was that the books mentioned in
the appendices to LOTR had not been published, and for all I knew would
never be published.  Needless to say, I was one of the first purchasers
of "The Silmarillion".  

I heard, or read, that JRRT pictured himself and his wife as Beren and
Luthien.  Any comments on that?  That tale was one of his best.

re .10:

I had always understood that both The Hobbit and LOTR were conceived as
bedtime stories for Tolkien's son Christopher.  Someone heard him telling
-- or rather, Christopher asked him to write them down for him, and thus
was born one of the greatest works of fantasy ever written...

(pardon the bit of confusion above...  I have a nasty habit of typing,
then thinking...)


					-- Faith --

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were friends.  Did anyone see how Tolkien viewed
the creation of the world as a song come to life and life the continuation
and fullfillment of the song?  Lewis, though, saw the creation the the world
and the lives of mankind as an ongoing dance of lights.  But you can't dance
without the music.  So the song was God's conception of the universe and
living creatures and the dance the physical form of the concept.

If this doesn't make sense to anyone, that's okay, I only had 2 hours of 
sleep and propably am incoherent.

Lewis used the creation-as-song idea, too, in the Chronicles of Narnia.
Don't know which of them used it first.

I accepted LOTR as "true" myth the first time I read it. To me, it's a
prime example of an alternate reality that was brought into being by
the author, but gained a life of its own thereafter. (That may sound
kind of silly; can anybody else express the idea better?)

Other of Tolkien's works that I appreciated included the short story
"Leaf, by Niggle", and his essay "On Fairy Stories", both worth reading.

-b

  Yes indeed, Leaf by Niggle is a good one!  
  For those of you interested in CS Lewis, Tolkien and their fantasy author
friends, read "The Inklings" by ....ARRGGHH!!!  I'll have to look it up.
Gives real insight into their character and friendship.

tlh

RE: .0

Obviously, the reason LOTR is not discussed here is because it isn't
science fiction.  Don't get me wrong; it's *wonderful*.  It just isn't
SF.

Anyone willing to design a set of Trivial Pursuit cards based on LOTR?

	I just wanted to clear up something someone said earlier, as far
	as I know, LOTR was written in a series of letters from Tolkein
	to his son Christopher. Tolkein did not live to see his works
	published. His son compiled and edited them for publication.
	
		And for a couple of Trivial Pursuit questions....


	1) What was the password needed to enter the Doors of Durin?

	2) The Bridge of ______-___ in Moria.

	3) Whose stonghold is Isengard?

	4) The names of the eagles who carried Sam and Frodo off Mt. Doom?


 

	According to the jacket on my copy of LotR, J.R.R. retired from
	teaching in 1959. The foreward (written by J.R.R.) says that the
	first edition was finished by 1950. My revised edition is
	copyright 1965, but I first read it several years before that.

	Christopher is responsible for several later books (Unfinished
	Tales, Silmarillion), but not LotR.

J.R.R.Tolkien died in 1973.  He wrote and published LOTR, Leaf By Niggle, etc.
before his death.  When he died, he was in the process of writing The 
Silmarillion, which Christopher finished and published for him.  Unfinished
Tales was a 'conglomeration', as it were, of various letters and papers that
Christopher found among his father's belongings.  These two are the only
ones that Christopher had any hand in, as far as I know, except for maybe
as sounding-board or proofreader...

					-- Faith --

    I  agree.  My old paperback versions had a blurb with JRRT's picture and
signature saying that these were the only authorized paperbacks and so on....

tlh

	I remember that. I bought the unauthorized version because it was
	available, then the authorized version came; so I bought it in a
	fit of guilt -- I wore both out, and am now on my third (or is it
	fourth) set.

A bit of historical perspective:

Back in the late 50's, when Houghton Mifflin bought the U.S. rights to
LOTR, instead of setting some type, and producing the book themselves,
they just imported unbound copies of the Unwin (British) edition and
bound it themselves. For some reason that I have yet to figure out, this
practice was not valid to secure a US copyright, and by doing it, Houghton
Mifflin caused the book to become public domain. Ace Books, in the early
60's, brought out paperback editions of this version of the trilogy.
Perhaps because of this (or perhaps not, I'm still not clear on this),
a revised edition of the book was issued with all the proper copyrights,
and *this* is the version most people have read.
	The first edition is still in public domain, and anyone who
wishes to could publish his own edition of *that* version. As a matter
of fact, the Rankin/Bass animated feature of THE RETURN OF THE KING that
was on tv a few years ago was based on the public domain edition of that
book. That's why they were able to do that cartoon when Ralph Bakshi
owned the rights to the entire (revised) trilogy.

--- jerry

re.5
I think that the epic of the Simarillon was sad.  As a reader, you observed
the fall from "grandeur" if you will, 



of the Elfs.  I enjoyed the booked
immensely, but I found the sense of loss very heartwrenching.

re.3 I think that must be brought that our background has alot to do with
our interpretation of any subject.  This basic point does not exclude a
writer.  Tolkien's personal, emotional, and religous background are probably
deeply ektched in his work.  That "background" is the basis of his existence.
One's creative mind is supposedly deeply routed with our subconcious mind
assuming that is true, our background and early training will seep into
our creative thoughts. (Certainly not in a definitive way) Such is the case
with any writer Tolkien included.  I think you are right though.  Nobodies
(great spelling) opinion is worth more than anybodyelse's.  I try not to
get so serious about developing a "sacrosanct" opinion that I miss the beauty
of the creative talents of a writer of Tolkien's class.

Final question:  I have seen the LOTR movie.  Do you think that a full length
movie covering the whole book would be any good? Would the Simarillon make
a decent movie?

Vince

re:12 You should definitely read the Simarillion.  The first part of the
book directly addresses your point.  I would comment, but I do not want
to spoil it for you.

Vince

		If any Tolkein addict out there has not seen Bakshi's
	movie, I strongly advise you to, by any means possible, see
	it. One of the prime reasons that it is so good is that it
	sticks word for word with J.R.R.'s character quotes.
		But don't get too caught up: the thing ends almost
	when fair Eowyn slays the evil Nazgul. I expected great 
	things, Ralph, with your incredible animation of our favorite
	baddies-the Dark Riders and the Battlin' Balrog, but alas...
	I shall have to wait...
			
		p.s.- Try the Harvard Lampoon's Bored of the Rings
		      It's totally irreverent, but great.
	
					sam

My God! A Tolkien fan who actually *liked* the movie! Will wonders never
cease! Personally, I didn't think it was that bad, but I'm not a Tolkien
fan, either.
	I've heard conflicting rumors about Bakshi finishing the project.
One is that he'll eventually get around to finishing it, but don't hold
your breath. The second is that the first film just wasn't that successful,
either critically or financially, and since Rankin/Bass did a version of
RETURN OF THE KING, Bakshi won't even bother trying to finish it.

--- jerry

I also think Bakshi's Lord Of the Rings was great.  I have certainly heard
a disappointingly few people say so.  Unfortunately, the most common complaint
I've heard about it was "it's not animation" because of the rotoscoping
and such.  Sigh.  Watercolors aren't oil painting, either, but so what?
It's no less art.

Bakshi did a fantastic job of designing and directing the characters, and
followed the plot with great detail.  Unlike most book to movie adaptations,
you could tell he was interested.  I've been waiting for the conclusion:
I really hope he'll do it.

	/dave

	Phew... I thought I was the only one who liked it. Now I won't
have to hide my head in the sand.
	About that rotoscoping jazz, would someone please explain to 
me what it is??

				sam

	Rotoscoping is a method of doing easy and life-like animation by
	filming live action and using the frames of the live action to
	act as outlines/models for the animation cells.  The live action
	is projected on the cells and the animated figures are drawn over
	the live figures.
	   Most of the bad footage in the movie "Lord of the Rings" was
	small animated features done on high contrast live footage.  This
	is not rotoscoping in that the live footage still appears.

		-John A. Wasser

		...gotcha, or do I?!??

				sam

My only complaint with Bakshi's LOTR was that in two hours he could not 
capture the depth found in the books.  I'd like to see a TV miniseries 
done on LOTR.

			YEAH!!!!!
		
				sam

but PLEASE let it be done by an independant company, and not by any
of the major networks.....

	The Lord of The Rings (a new miniseries)

	Starring
		Burgess Meredith as Gandalf
		William Shatner as Frodo
		Henry Winkler as Gollum

		   --with--

		Pia Zadora and Tanya Roberts as members of the 
		hobbit expedition

		Lou Gosset, Jnr as Tom Bombadill....

re: .32

What would Pia Zadora and Tanya Roberts be doing with the hobbit expidition?
Aren't they women?  There weren't any females, human or hobbit, on the
Ringvoyage.  I only realized this upon re-reading the series, but it really
spoiled the book for me.  I couldn't stand it being so overwhelmingly male
oriented.  There are a few female characters, but males are in the vast
majority, on both the Good and Evil sides.  I can't remember a single
female hobbit of importance, and few humans or elves either.  Although
quite a few important characters are married, so one knows that there are
females around.

Another thing that bothered me after the first reading, why didn't J.R.R. have
anything to say about the sex lives of the hobbits?  The whole story hinges
on hobbits being humble, earthy, lusty, life-loving folk.  Neither elves,
men or dwarves can be trusted with the One because they're to susceptible
to Power.  Not even Gandalf, the greatest wizard.  Hobbits, and Frodo in
particular, are the only hope of the world because they value the wonderful
mundane Shire more than dominion over everything. To get that point across
Tolkein goes into great detail about how they love parties, and drinking
beer, and sotweed, and telling stories and giving out presents etc.  I can't
beleive that they don't also love a good roll in the hay. Why was that part
left out?

Don.

Although I agree that it might have been nice to see a little more
variety in the female characters - the ones mentioned were nearly all
"goddesses" or close to it - I still feel that there was sufficient
reference to their existence!

I will admit that if a modern author wrote a story based in modern or
future times, and did not either include females on a similar basis to
males or explain why they were NOT so included, I'd be upset - but Tolkien
was writing a myth, and did it so well that I consider it to be its own
reality. Given that, I won't quibble with it; that would be like complaining
that a tree's leaves fall off in the autumn. You may not like it, but it's
the way things are.

There are several (oblique) references to the fecundity of hobbits. Bilbo
and Frodo were almost unique in hobbit history by being bachelors; if you
look at the geneology in the back of the book, you will see that Sam and
Rosie wind up having something like a dozen children, and most of the other
married hobbits also breed like - er, hobbits.

Personally, I don't mind books that omit the steamy sex scenes, which are
now apparently obligatory in many forms of writing, film-making, and
television. I am more than willing to imagine such things; if the characters
are represented as being warm and loving, it is easy to imagine a warm and
loving sex life for them as well. (It does seem that the hobbits are the
only folk in Middle Earth who have any fun at all; sex among the Gondorians
must be formal in the extreme, and relatively passionless, at least from
the way most of the characters behaved; dwarves indulge rarely, if at all,
and the elves seem to be above such things...)

-b

		Please, guys just remember how young I am!

					sam

		Hey I just realized something!	

	re 33. Who says Gandalf is the greatest wizard???? Whatever
		happened to Sauramen (did I spell that right?) I
		mean-you'd have a nervous breakdown too if a horde
		of animated trees suddenly wasted your home!!!!!!!
		I sort of liked the wiz in white...

			Gandalf Schmandalf!

					Mr. Underhill

	Who should play Samwise.  He is a key figure, in some ways more 
important than Frodo.

re: .24

I agree about Bored of the Rings.  But can it still be found?  I stumbled on
it by accident.

Beth

		I found it at the Dartmouth Coop, where you can find
	lots of things like that.
				
					sam

Re. response #32 -

	William Shatner as Frodo ???????

	
r

re:.40

Nah, It's William Shatner as Dodo!!


:-)
MartyJ

Well, all he would need would be a toupee for his feet too!!!!

    There is a book by Lin Carter called "Imaginary Worlds".  This book
    is not a fantasy, but a non-fiction work detailing the history of
    adult fantasy.  Needless to say, he deals with the Inklings and
    Tolkien's work.  In addition to being a fascinating book to read,
    it contains a bibliography of suggested fantasy reading (thru 1974,
    I believe).
    
    ps this was in reply to note 14 and related replys
    
    bf
    

    I always kind of pictured Bruce Dern playing Grima/Wormtongue.
    
    -Jim-

re who would play Sam in the movie version - Ringo Star once said that
    his greatest ambition was to play Sam in the movie - I kind of fancy
    him!
    As to .33 and others about women in the Lord of the Rings - from
    reading Inkings I am aware that much as he truely loved his wife
    Tolkien felt that true cameraderie and friendship existed only 
    between males - which explains to me why LOFTR is so male dominated.
    Re Lewis -Lewis read all of TLOTR before he wrote the Narinia books
    and many of his ideas are derivative there from - i.e the song at
    the creation of the world, walking trees to win a battle. etc. etc.
     Inkings points out that Tolkien was dispointed with Lewis's books
    and it caused a severance of their friendship.   
    It is still my favorite book - and I've read it over twenty
    times - and we've read it aloud to our kids 2 and a half times.
    Bonnie

    re:.45
    
    Actually, Ringo was once considered to play Frodo, back in the
    70's when John (DELIVERANCE, EXCALIBUR) Boorman had plans to
    film LOTR as a live-action film. His idea was to get "normal-
    sized" actors to play hobbits, dwarves, etc. and get tall actors
    to play the men.
    
    --- jerry

    Same John Boorman who did Zardoz ?
    	
    Max Von Sydow would make an excellent Sauruman.
    
    I thought that Dern would make a better Paladin.  He's got the look
    of harried honesty and deep integrity that a paladin needs.

And Laurence Olivier for Denethor or Elrond!
Harrison Ford for Aragorn!
Peter Lorre for Gollum! (OK, so he's dead.  It's amazing what Muppets 
    can do these days.)
Sigourney Weaver (with a blonde dye job) for Galadriel,
Fred Ward for any of the hobbits except Frodo (too sly a look),
Fred Gwynne (of Munster fame) for Treebeard,

hmmm, who else?

    
    
    	.re .47
    
    zack
    

    re:.47
    
    I'm ashamed. I *knew* there was something else he was known for,
    and I couldn't remember what it was. How could I have forgotten
    ZARDOZ, especially since I'm one of the dozen or so people who
    really liked it.
    
    --- jerry

    I like Harrison Ford as Aragorn, how about Mark Hamel as Pippin
    or Merry? Has anyone made a vote for Boromir?

    Re: .50  Make that 13. I was gonna mention it.

  Richard Chamberlain as Faramir and the other captain from Shogun (the
dark-haired guy) as Boromir.  Perfect match, I think.

  Harrison Ford would be too good-looking for Aragorn.  Aragorn wasn't supposed
to be all that good-looking, uh, fair of face?

John

    Richard Chamberlain is too pretty for Aragron. Harrison Ford
    has the kind of rugged looks that would go with Aragorn also
    he's a better actor in my opinion.

  That's Chamberlain as *Faramir* and I agree, Ford is a better actor. 
Mebbie you're right, Ford's not _that_ pretty.

John

    re .55 oops! Read your note too fast! Chamberlain would be o.k.
    as far as looks are concerned for Faramir, I guess.

Let's get this one going again!  Does anybody out there read and/or write
elvish (Quenya, Sindarin, etc.)?  Has anyone else transliterated the script
on the title page of the Hobbit, LotR and the Silmarillion?  The new books
(Unfinished Tales, Lost Tales Vol 1 and 2, and the Lays of Beleriand) pose
more of a problem since some of the script is cut off (at least in my copy.)

I've always been enamoured with elves and everything elvish, so anyone who
says anything against them will incur my wrath (;^).  What do you say to that?

	Thanks,

	 /~~'\
	W o o k		aka. Eldarendil (Translation anyone?)
	(  ^  )
	 \`-'/
	  \_/

    Your aka translates as "Devoted to the Eldar (elves)."
    
    I am not fluent in elvish scripts, but I have a friend who has tried
    to develop an elvish font for his printer.  It works best as banner
    printing.  Also, it turns out that elvish looks beautiful only if
    you add a certain amount of calligraphic swirls and curliques. 
    Without them, the letters begin to look dismayingly alike.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    I USED to be able to write elvish script (and can certainly still
    write Runic characters).  I translated those pieces at one time,
    but I don't remember offhand what they said (it wasn't too thrilling,
    as I recall), but I will look them up when I get a chance, or
    retranslate them (might take a while; it's been many years, especially
    for the Quenyan characters).

    OK, I have some of them, at least.  I CAN'T FIND my hardcover copy
    of The Hobbit anymore (8-{), so I can't tell you what the runes
    around the edge of the dustjacket say (if you have the hardcopy,
    I'll transcribe it for you if you send me a photocopy - I sure wonder
    what has become of my copy!  At least I also have a paperback one!).
    
    The runes on the map of the Lonely Mountain don't say anything you
    didn't already know anyways.  It has "five feet high the door and
    three may walk abreast.  Th. Th." on the left and "stand by the
    grey stone when the thrush knocks and the setting sun with the last
    light of Durin's Day will shine upon the keyhole.  Th." at the bottom,
    both in fairly normal runes (I mean, not specific to Tolkien lore;
    anyone who can read Scandinavian runes could translate these). 
    The writing on the dustcover was in the same kind of runes, but
    I don't remember what it said anymore.  It wasn't anything really
    surprising, something like "there and back again...".
    
    The top inscription on the title page of LOTR says "The Lord of
    the Rings translated from the Red Book" in Angerthas (runes - but
    not the same as those in The Hobbit).  The lower inscription is
    in Tengwar script and says "of Westmarch by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien:
    herein is set forth the history of the war of the ring and the return
    of the king as seen by the hobbits.".
    
    The inscription in The Silmarillion is also in Tengwar (not script),
    and says "the tale of the first age when Morgoth dwealt in Middle
    Earth and the elves made war upon him for the recovery of the
    Silmarils, to which are appended the Downfall of Numenor and the
    history of rings of power and the third age in which these tales
    come to their end."
    
    As I said, none of these things say anything too interesting!
    But now you know!

    re .61 I *hope* your good grief was an acclamation not a put down
    - I think .60's translationswere pretty neat.

    Merely amazement at:
    1. The runes actually meant something.
    2. That, as stated in .60, the translations turned out to be
    pedestrian.  Think going to all that trouble to compose them in
    the first place they would've made it worth the trouble to translate
    them.             
    3. There are people who went to the trouble.  It hadn't occured
    to me until then there are runes enthusiasts.  One of the ongoing
    reasons I like this Notesfile.  "Runensthusiasts"?
    
    							Don

    	I never bothered to translate the ones on anything but the "The
    Hobbit".  Those ones said something like a "The Hobbit by JRRTolkien.
    Or There and Back Again."  It may have also said  somehting like
    "Being the tale of Biblo Baggins adventure..."  I'll have to dig
    it out tonight and see if I can remember any of the runes.  (I haven'e
    written in them since my high school buddy and I ended up at different
    colleges.)
    
    tlh
     

     
    Back in middle school a few of my friends and I were pretty "into"
    LOTR, and we translated the runes on all of the books and maps,
    etc. We also used the runes as a code (Give me a break. I was in
    7th grade at the time - it was fun). It drove our teachers crazy.
    I have long since forgotten most of the translations, but it was
    fun. 
    
    Roy

Re: .-1
     
    >etc. We also used the runes as a code (Give me a break. I was in
    >7th grade at the time - it was fun). It drove our teachers crazy.

    Hey, me too!  I had a friend whom I referred to as Elthoron (translation
    anyone?)  We would leave note on the blackboard, usually using the Quenya
    mode of the Tengwar with full diacritics (to transliterate english) but
    occasionally we'd use the mode of Beleriand which was used to on the
    West door to Moria.  You remember.  The one that said:

	"Ennyn Durin Aran Moria.  Pedo mellon a minno."

    How's about the translation and the mis-translation that baffled even
    Gandalf (or should we say Mithrandir or maybe Olorin) until it was
    almost too late?

    (Hai, Iluvanna!  Elen sila lummeni omentielvo!  Isn't this fun? :^)

	 /~~'\
	W o o k	    "Three rings for elven kings under the sky."
	(  ^  )						Who knows the rest?
	 \`-'/
	  \_/

    Gee, I thought I told this story here. Let's see...
    
    Back in my college days at Northeastern U, I was going about my
    business in one of the mens' rooms' stall and reading the graffiti
    when I spied one that was written in runes. Being curious as to
    whether they meant anything, I jotted them down on a piece of paper
    and when I got home, I pulled out my copy of RETURN OF THE KING
    to consult the rune charts therein. Unfortunately, it translated
    into gibberish.
    
    Well, a couple of days later, I stopped at a used bookstore on the
    way home and found a hardcover of THE HOBBIT, which I bought. Upon
    getting home and looking at the runes on the dustjacket, I recog-
    nized the word "hobbit". Funny, the runes should not be that obvious.
    Again consulting the ROTK chart, I realized that the rune system
    used in THE HOBBIT was different from the one used in the Trilogy.
    So, starting with the word "hobbit", I was able to decode the rest
    of the runes, and translate the message on the dustjacket, which
    is basicly something like (this is from a 15 or so year old memory)
    "The Hobbit, or There and Back Again, being the adventures of Bilbo
    Baggins of the Shire, written by J.R.R. Tolkien and published by
    George Allen and Unwin, Ltd.".
    
    Suddenly remembering that I was never able to translate the legends
    on the map before, using the ROTK chart, I tried it with this one,
    and, yes, it translated into English exactly as the message was
    quoted in the book itself. Then, I said what the hell, I should
    try decoding the graffiti using this system, and so I did, and
    much to my great pleasure, it actually translated into something
    meaningful! What it said was...
    
    "If you can read this, you're in the wrong century!"
    
    --- jerry

Your friend's nickname could be translated "Star-eagle" or "Elf-eagle," 
depending on the meaning given to "El-".  This literally means "star" but 
since the elves called themselves the "star-folk" (Eldar) it might be short 
for "elf."

I do not remember the translation of the first sentence you quote from the 
Moria gate (something about Durin lord of Moria, obviously), but the second
translated, "Say `friend' and enter," and was at first mis-translated, "Speak,
friend, and enter." 

As far as I can tell, your last remark in elvish means, "Hail all-gift! A star 
shines on the hour of our meeting!" [The second sentence is a traditional 
elvish greeting, used by Frodo when he encountered the elves in the Shire in 
the first book.  Who all-gift might be, I do not know.]

Your final quote is the opening line of the Rhyme of the Ring:

	Three rings for the elven kings under the sky,
	Seven for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone,
	Nine for mortal men doomed to die,
	One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne,
	In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.

	One Ring to rule them all,
	One Ring to find them,
	One Ring to bring them all
	And in the darkness bind them,
	In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.

Earl Wajenberg

    Did you have that memorized, Earl?  ;-)
    
    						Don

    I KNEW I wouldn't be the only person who learned the Runic alphabet
    to pass notes in 7th grade (the teacher would read aloud all
    intercepted notes, except those written by me and my friends; the
    teacher, bless her heart, wasn't very bright)!  8-}
    
    I thought I had already said that the Runes on The Hobbit were "normal"
    ones, very similar or identical to old Norse runes; I had already
    learned them by the first time that I read The Hobbit, and so didn't
    have much trouble translating them.  I learned them, I think, because
    they were used in some other early sf book - I think it was in "Journey
    to the Center of the Earth", but Jerry can probably tell us (old
    Jules Verne stuff); it was a lot of years ago now.  The Rune-like
    characters used in LOTR (which they call Angerthas) are an invention,
    and I never did learn to read them accurately without a cheat sheet.
    Tengwar is hard to read unless it is written with the vowels spelled
    out: both the Moria-gate and the title page of The Silmarillion
    are much, much easier to read than either the Ring inscription or
    the title page of LOTR.  My friends all learned to read this stuff,
    too, but it was too tricky to translate in a reasonable amount ot
    time, so we normally used the much-easier runes.  I can't reliably
    read Tengwar of any sort anymore without cheating.
                                  
    I was a wierd kid....
    
    /Charlotte

    Looks like we need a "Weird when-I-was-a-kid stories" file.  Related
    to SF-type stuff, of course.  That's another Notes file.  :-)
    
    						Don

Re: < Note 89.70 by CADSYS::RICHARDSON >

    >I was a wierd kid....
    
    Not weird, but wonderful! imaginative! inquisative!  I don't think
    anyone has to be weird in order to enjoy the marvelous complexity of 
    the universe that Tolkien created (or should we say chronicled :^)

Re: .68

    Thanks, Earl for the translations and the Rhyme of the Ring.  I'm
    in the process of boning up on my elvish lore and practice makes
    perfect.  You were right about my friend's name.  We were using the
    "Star-eagle" meaning.  "Iluvanna" is a rough elvish translation of
    the middle name of one our fellow noters, with whom I've been sharing
    Middle Earth experiences, reminisences, and questions.  I thought
    it might be fun to share some of the material from those messages
    with the general SF noting community.

    So, here's a trivia question.  What was Frodo's exact relation to
    Bilbo?  For you Silmarillion fans, who was Finarfin and who were
    his children?

	Namari�,

	 /~~'\
	W o o k	    BTW:  The traditional greeting should have been as follows:
	(  ^  )		  "Elen s�la lumenn omentilmo."
	 \`-'/
	  \_/	    PS.  Would anyone like to swap notes on elvish grammar,
			 both Quenya and Sindarin?

    re:.70
    
    I think you are thinking of JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH.
    My memory is hazy, but I think Sakknussen (sp?) wrote the instruc-
    tions for finding the passageway to the center of the Earth in
    runes.
    
    I'm not familiar with actual Norse runes, so didn't know how to
    decode the Hobbit map. It did strike me as strange that the
    characters for the word "Hobbit" looked like the Roman characters,
    which is what tipped me off that the Hobbit system was different
    from the other one.
    
    --- jerry

    My son, Brent, is sitting here and says he thinks that Frodo is
    Bilbo's nephew, on his mothers side. He is in the process of reading
    the "Ring" series. He just turned 13.
    
    M-L

    As I recall, Sam explained the rather intricate connection between
    Bilbo and Frodo to a group of hobbits at the local pub, and it boiled
    down to "cousin once removed either way, as the saying goes."
    
    (That line sticks in my memory because of its resemblance to a line
    from Rocky & Bullwinkle, where the moose refers to his "uncle twice
    removed ... once for loitering and once for vagrancy.")
    
    Earl Wajenberg

	A friend refers to me as a cousin not-yet-removed.. :-)

						mike

    re .68
    On checking the roots of words in the back of the Silmarilion, there
    is a separate root for elf which is ed- so Elthoron would have to
    be Star-eagle.

Re .75

    As I recall, Bilbo and Frodo were first and second cousins, once
    removed in either case.  I believe they more closely related as
    Tooks (first cousins once removed).  Bilbo's mother and Frodo's
    grandmother were sisters and daughters of THE Took (who btw was
    the oldest hobbit on record until Bilbo passed him up.)  If anyone
    can remember THE Took's name, please share it with us.

Re .77
    >On checking the roots of words in the back of the Silmarilion, there
    >is a separate root for elf which is ed- so Elthoron would have to
    >be Star-eagle.

    Remember that there are two languages involved: Quenya or High Elvish
    and Sindarin.  Sindarin was spoken in Middle Earth.  It has the same
    roots as Quenya, but has changed much more from the original.

    The Quenya word for elves is 'eldar' while the Sindarin form was "edhil".
    Also to be noted is that "gil" means star as well as "el".  "Gil" is used
    chiefly by the Sindar (Grey Elves) (cf. Gil-Galad)  Thoron is also
    Sindarin.  The Quenya form is "Soron" so Elthoron is a bit of a mix,
    somewhat like mixing greek and latin stems to make a word.

    BTW: Aragorn was at one time known as Thorongil!  Does anyone remember
	 who his chief rival was at that time?

    More trivia:  Who was the tallest hobbit before Merry and Pippin?
		  What caused Merry and Pippin to grow so large?

    Silmarillion: Who were the seven sons of Feanor?

    The Hobbit:	  Where were Glamdring and Orcrist (aka Beater and Biter)
		  forged?

	Namari�,    (Farewell in Quenya)

	 /~~'\
	W o o k	    Elrandir Eldarendil
	(  ^  )
	 \`-'/
	  \_/

    Aragron served Denethor's father under the name of Throngil and
    his chief rival was Denethor.
    Merry and Pippen grew tall from drinking Ent draughts.
    Tallest other Hobbit was Bandobas Bullroarer - he could even sit
    a horse! ;-)

    I think the Old Took's name was Gerontius.

    I think that was a different old Took. He was the one whose office
    Pippen compaired to Fangorn forest. Very old and musty. I'll have
    to check my books.

Re: .80,81

    >I think that was a different old Took. He was the one whose office
    >Pippen compaired to Fangorn forest. Very old and musty. I'll have
    >to check my books.

    Gerontius does ring a bell and .80 is right. It was the OLD Took, not
    THE Took.  The office that Pippin was referring to might be Gerontius'.
    I remember reading that the Great Smials of the Tooks and Buck Hall(?)
    of the Brandybucks were the largest Hobbit dwellings in the Shire.

    More Trivia:

    Who were Pippin and Merry's fathers?  (I don't remember if their mothers
    were ever mentioned.  Anybody know?)

    Would anybody be interested in having their name translated into elvish?
    I'm sure there are a few hard-core Quenya-philes (me included) who might
    be willing to take a crack at it.  Just include your name and the meaning
    in English, then wait for a reply.  And don't forget to try the trivia!

	Namari�,

	 /~~'\
	W o o k
	(  ^  )
	 \`-'/
	  \_/

    What I meant by a differnt Took was that Gerontius wasn't the tallest
    hobbit before Merry and Pippen.
    

    Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took is a different individual than Gerontius
    "the Old" Took.  I think the comment was something like, if Bilbo
    was trying to beat Gerontius's age, Pippin could try to beat
    Bandobras's height (I think they both succeeded, depending on how
    you end up counting Bilbo's age when he left Middle Earth).

    Oh yes, the Tooks were widely known in the Shire as madcap gentry,
    rather often going off and having disreputable adventures.  In an
    early version of "The Hobbit," Tolkein reports the rumor that one
    of the early Tooks had taken a fairy wife (or goblin, according
    to the less charitable rumor mongers).  Tolkein dismisses this as
    ridiculous, and I admit I have a hard time picturing a hobbit marrying
    either an orc or an elf (which I presume to be the hypothetical
    "fairy" -- at least no other candidates leap to mind).  But it just
    goes to illustrate the Took reputation for eccentricity.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Most of the names of the characters in TLotR are in the "original"
    (Westron or version of elvish) language, or slightly modified i.e
    a is a masculine ending so that Frodo was actually Froda. However,
    Tolkien "translated" the names of Merry, Samwise and his father
    Hamfast. Does anyone know what their "real" names were?

    
    Many years ago, I taped from the BBC Radio 4 the whole of J.R.Tolkeins
    Lord of the Rings, all 26 episodes. However, due to reasons that
    I cant remember now, I missed a couple of episodes, I think 10 and
    11, perhaps I was on hols. Did anybody else tape this magnificent
    serial and if so can I borrow your copy of said episodes?.
    
    My notebook is rather full at the moment so will not keep this
    conference in it for long - please mail me on TMCUK2::BANKS if you
    can help.

    Thanks, David.

    There is a new Tolkien Calendar for 1987 available through the Science
    Fiction Book Club.  It looks to be a welcome change from the calendar
    illustrated by Rowena Morrill that has been out for TWO years running. 
    It is published by Ballantine Books (which owns the paperback rights to
    Tolkiens stuff here in the US) and features artwork by Alan Lee, Roger
    Garland, Ted Nasmith and John Howe who are collectively referred to as
    "four of today's finest fantasy artists..."  The published price is
    $7.95 though members can get it for $5.50 + shipping and handling.  It
    apparently lists the important dates in tLotR.  (I doubt that they
    could use the Shire Reckoning that was used in tLotR.)  Does anyone
    know what day this would be in Shire Reckoning?
     
	Thanks,

	 /~~'\
	W o o k
	(  ^  )
	 \`-'/
	  \_/

I was wondering whether anyone could help me out.

I've been going through _The Fellowship of the Ring_ again, looking
specifically for Elvish expressions.  I found more than I expected.
I've been trying to translate some of the phrases, but haven't been
able to get to far on some of them.  I hope there are folks who can
give these phrases a try themselves.

Gandalf's fire spell used in Eregion while fighting Wargs:

"Naur an edraith ammen!  Naur dan i ngaurhoth!"

I figure that "Naur" means fire.  I think the second half means something
like "Fire upon these enemies".

Gandalf's door opening spell used unsuccessfully on the West Gate of Moria:

"Annon edhellen, edro (I'm missing a word here) ammen!"
"Fennas nogothrim, lasto beth lammen!"

I know that "Annon edhellen" means "Door of the Elves" and "edro" means "open".
I think "Fennas nogothrim" means "Gate of the Dwarves".
Does anyone have any clues about the rest of it?

	Thanks,

	 /~~'\
	W o o k
	(  ^  )
	 \`-'/
	  \_/

    See if you can find a book called "The Languages of Middle Earth,"
    by Ruth Noel.  It contains every scrap of Elvish in "Lord of the
    Rings," and possibly every scrap of Rohanish, Dwarvish, and Black
    Speech as well, all translated as far as possible.  There are
    translation dictionaries and grammar studies, too, along with
    repetitions of Tolkien's material on the alphabets.  With all that,
    it is not a thick book -- there just isn't that much material to
    discuss.
    
    In the case of your particular phrase, I believe the only translatable
    word was "naur" = "fire."
    
    Earl Wajenberg

        
    I don't have a copy of the book available, but I know in the animated
    version of The Lord of the Rings, Gandalf refers to himself as a
    "Keeper of the Secret Fire".  I don't remember if it is in the book.
    
    Maybe that's a clue?
    
    DFW

    Yes, that's in the book.  I believe it is during his confrontation
    with the balrog, whom he called "Flame of Udun."  Udun, I think,
    is an area of Angband, back in the First Age.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    re .91:
    
    "The Secret Fire" is the elven ring which he possesses. (one of
    the "Three for the Elven Kings, under the sky").
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    Hmm.  That *does* work out, since at the end we are clearly shown
    "Narya, the Ring of Fire" on his hand ("nar/naur" apparently being
    the elvish root for "fire").  On the other hand, I believe there
    is reference in the "Silmarillion" to a "secret fire" essential
    for true and original creation.  Melkor sought it in the outer voids
    far from the celestial courts, and Iluvatar kindled it to create
    the physical world.  I had assumed this was Gandalf's "secret fire."
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    re .94:
    
    I think I'm getting in over my head, Earl, you certainly appear
    to be a scholar in this area, but...
    
    I would think that "the secret fire" spoken of in the Silmarillion
    would be a tad too much power in the hands of a mere wizard ('mere'
    when compared to the previous wielders of the "fire")
    
    I think there was some talk of the three Elven rings and how they
    had been hidden from Sauron and were closely guarded secrets by
    the bearers. Thus, "Secret Fire" for Narya.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /                                                        
    
    p.s. Gandalf, Galadriel were ring bearers, who held the third? Elrond?
    
         This note may make me read the books yet again.

    I won't deny the possibility that Gandalf was alluding to Narya.
    But I vaguely recall that he said he was a "SERVANT of the Secret
    Fire."  That wouldn't entail any metaphysical breach of etiquette.
    I'll have to go back and check the books.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    
    	Re .95  Yes the third ring was worn by Elrond.  Way back in
    my fuzzy memory I seem to recall that Bilbo made a comment that
    brought the fact to light.
    
    	Re .94  Gandalf a 'mere' wizard?  While long life in Middle
    Earth doesn't rate any great status, would a 'mere' wizard be brought
    back after death or be entrusted with a ring of power?  
    
    	Now let me show the fact that I can never get more than started
    on 'The Silmarillion'.  Is there any actual reference to how Gandalf
    came to have the third of the three rings?
    
    	Klaes
    

Hmmn...yes, the three Elven rings were Gandalf (from Cirdan the Shipwright),
Galadriel and Elrond.

My memory is hazy, but didn't Gandalf describe the "Secret Fire" as the flame
of Anor (the setting or westerly Sun) as opposed to the flame of Udun?

Given the historical context, (Minas) Anor was the last place in which the
light of the two Trees shone, prior to Gandalf and Aragorn finding the lost
sapling at the finish of the _Return of the King_.

    Okay, I went home and looked up the scene on the Bridge of Khazad
    Dum.  Gandalf said that he was a "servant of the Secret Fire" and
    "wielder of the flame of Anor."  He then said "the dark fire will
    not avail you, flame of Udun."
    
    So I take it that the Secret Fire is indeed the mystical, metaphysical
    fire that powers creation, while the "flame of Anor [the Sun]" that
    Gandalf wields is probably Narya, his elven ring.  According to
    the Silmarillion, balrogs are fire-demons, as one sees vividly in
    the scene mentioned.  We also probably see the "dark fire" in action,
    in the form of the aura of gloom the balrog carries with it.          
    
    The three rings were made by the elves of Eregion under the rule
    of (I think) Celebrimor, in the Second Age, using methods given
    them by Sauron, who at the time was disguising his identity.  The
    first time the elf-lords put on the rings, Sauron put on the One
    Ring and tried to take them over, but the elves immediately took
    them off again.  Sauron dropped his disguise and a war followed,
    in which Eregion, the region west of Moria, was devastated.  The
    Three wound up in the keeping of Galadriel, Elrond, and Cirdan.
    Cirdan, being in charge of the westernmost Grey Havens, was there
    to welcome the Five Wizards when they first arrived from over the
    sea.  He then gave the Ring of Fire to Gandalf.  Saruman either
    knew or guess this and was jealous.  This was the beginning of the
    rivalry between the two wizards, though Saruman did not actually
    turn traitor for many centuries.
    
    All of this comes from "The Silmarillion" and "Unfinished Tales."
    
    About the ontological rank of wizards -- they are maiar, companion-
    spirits to the Valar.  The Valar are more or less gods, the fourteen
    mighty spirits who organized the material universe.  The maiar are
    spirits of lesser rank, with a wide range of powers.  Sauron was
    also a maia, though one of near-vala power.  So, in terms of modern
    religions, all of Tolkien's wizards are angels of one rank or another.

    Here's some more background on the various rings found in TLotR.
    
    Of the rings of power, there were twenty in all that broke down
    as follows:
    
    "Three rings for Elven kings under the sky,"
    
    These were Vilya, Nenya, and Narya, made by Celebrimbor of Eregion,
    grandson of F�anor of Silmarils fame.  These rings (and I believe
    all the rings) were made using knowledge obtained from Sauron, however
    the Three were never actually touched by Sauron, nor did he know
    of their being made.  When Sauron razed Eregion, Celebrimbor fled
    with the Three. He gave Vilya, mightiest of the Three, the ring
    of Air to Gil-Galad who was then High King of the Elves.  When
    Gil-Galad gave Vilya to Elrond who was his herald and successor.
    Nenya, the ring of water, was given to Galadriel who retained it
    throughout the second and third ages.  Narya, the ring of Fire,
    was (as Earl pointed out) given to C�rdan, the Shipwight, until
    Gandalf (Mithrandir to the Elves and most likely the Maia Ol�rin)
    arrived at the Grey Havens.
    
    "Seven for the Dwarf lords in their halls of stone"
    
    The Seven were given to the Seven Dwarf Fathers in an attempt to
    subjugate them.  All it ended up doing was to make the wearers greedier
    then usual.  This irked Sauron, so he spent a lot of time trying
    to recover them.  Some were eaten by dragons, but the others were
    eventually recovered.  The last one recovered was the one that belonged
    to the House of Durin ,Greatest of the Dwarf Fathers.  It was taken
    from either Thrain or Thror (I forget which, but I tend to think
    the former) while he was imprisoned in Dol Guldur by The Necromancer
    who was none other than Sauron.
    
    "Nine for mortal men doomed to die"
    
    The Nine were given to Numenorean lords who allied themselves with
    Sauron.  They were transformed by the Nine into the Nazgul or
    Ringwraiths.  These were the Black Riders.
    
    "One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne"
    "In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie."
    
    The One Ring was different from the rest in that it was an unadorned
    gold band.  Sauron invested it with a significant portion of his
    power.  When he wore it, he was aware of all the other rings.  The
    One Ring was supposed to grant power according to the strength and
    power of the wearer, so that persons already powerful would become
    IMMENSELY more powerful and those who were not gained minor powers.
    It seems that Hobbits had some natural resistence to the effects
    of the One.  The spell that Sauron spoke when he made the One finishes
    this reply.
    
    "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them."
    "One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them"
    
    "In the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie."
    
    Namari�,

     /~~'\
    W o o k	aka. Elrandir Eldarendil
    (  ^  )
     \`-'/	Namari� means farewell.  See Galadriel's song in
      \_/	Book I _The_Fellowship_of_the_Ring_.  It comes at
    		the end of that song.  BTW, my personal name is the
    		first phrase of that song.

    Gandalf says at one point something like "Olorin I was in The West
    that is remembered no more", so I don't think there is any question
    about him being that Maia.  I don't remember when he says that;
    I think it is after Moria, but I could be wrong.

    Re: < Note 89.101 by CADSYS::RICHARDSON >
    
    You're right.  Gandalf did refer to his being once called Ol�rin when
    he met Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli in Fangorn Forest.  According to the
    Silmarillion, Ol�rin was (I believe) a maia of L�rien the Vala or at
    least spent a lot of time with him.  To me, there is little doubt that
    Gandalf and Ol�rin are one in the same, but I remember reading a book
    in which the correspondence was considered at least arguable.  I don't
    remember which book, though.  I'll have to check. 
    
    Gandalf was the what he was called by Northern Men and Hobbits.  To the
    Elves, he was Mithrandir (Grey Wanderer or Pilgrim).  He also had other
    names: Incanus and perhaps Tarkun.  One of these is his dwarvish name
    and the other is what he was called in the south (Harad), but I forget
    which is which. 
    
    Re: Wizards in general
    
    Radagast the Brown and Saruman the White were the only other wizards
    mentioned in tLotR.  There were two other, Alatar and Pallindo (sp?)
    whose color was blue.  They apparently disappeared into the East. So,
    including Gandalf, there were five wizards altogether.
    
    Saruman (does anyone remember his elvish name?) was clearly the head of
    the order.  He was usually deferred to whenever there was a meeting of
    the mighty in Middle Earth.  He also led the White Council that drove
    the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.  Gandalf the Grey was second.  After
    these two, it's unclear how the rest of the order is arranged (though I
    suspect that Radagast was "last seed"), but rank was subject to change. 
    
    BTW:
    
    The Sindarin term for wizard is "ithron".  The plural is "ithryn". The
    Quenya (High Elvish) term is either "ista" or "istar".  The plural is
    "istari".  (I'm still fascinated by Tolkien's wonderful languages,
    especially the various Eldarin languages.  It's almost as if the story
    grew out the languages rather than vice versa.  I hope there are others
    out there that would like to discuss this aspect of Tolkien's work.)
        
	Nam�ri�,

	 /~~'\
	W o o k
	(  ^  )
	 \`-'/
	  \_/

re: .102
(Saruman's Elvish name)

Curunir, i think...

    I think you're right.  At least it rings a bell.  I think "Curu-" means
    craft.  F�anor was supposed to have been called Curufinw� until his
    mother (M�riel?) changed it at or soon after his birth and one of his
    sons was named Curufin.  If I remember it right, Curufin was
    Celebrimbor's father. It seems the talent for making things runs in the
    family. 
    
    BTW: I wonder whether the problems Celebrimbor had with Sauron had
    anything to do with the Curse of Mandos upon the sons of F�anor? 
    
	Namari�,

	 /~~'\
	W o o k
	(  ^  )
	 \`-'/
	  \_/

    I don't think Feanor's mother *changed* the child's name; she just
    added one.  Somewhere in "Lost Tales," Christopher documents the
    naming system Tolkein made up for the elves.  The father and the
    mother each gave the baby one name; the elf then went on to acquire
    or choose other names in the course of its (long) life.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    That's right.  I remember the reference.  One of the names is called
    the "ap esse" in elvish (or something close to that.)  I believe it
    meant either "fore-name" or "after-name".  I don't remember whether it
    was a parental name or an acquired name, though.  I believe it was
    mentioned that Galadriel had a different name as a child.  I'll have to
    see if I can find the passage that mentions it. 
    
    BTW: Has anyone gotten a hold of _The_Lays_of_Beleriand_?  I think it's
    a collection of songs and poems.  I also seem to recall that there was
    a songbook, with melodies written out, but it may have been associated
    with one of the animated adaptations. (The Rankin/Bass animateds have a
    lot of singing, most of it bad.) 
    
    Wook Lee 
    

    re .106:
    
    I have the Tolkien song book _The_Road_Goes_Ever_On_. It was published
    in '75-'76 (I was in high school at the time). Which would put it
    long before any of the animations.
    
    I haven't played any of the songs since then, and I don't remember
    how good they were.               
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    
     

    The melodies in "The Road Goes Ever On" are by Donald Swann.  (The
    lyrics are, of course, by JRR Tolkien.)  Swann was the lyricist
    of the English comedy song team of Flanders and Swann; anyone remember
    them?  Tolkien heard Swann's settings of his poetry and apparently
    liked them; he wrote a preface for the collection in which he included
    some new tidbits of Middle-Earth lore.  E.g., when Galadriel sang
    that long song in High Elven at the departure of the Company from
    Lorien ("Namarie"), she believed herself to be in perpetual exile
    from Elvenhome in the West.
    
    So one can regard Swann's music as something like the "canonical"
    settings for the poems.  So far as I know, they have nothing to
    do with any of the songs appearing in any of the animations.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    re .102
    "the story grew out of the languages"....I remember reading that
    Tolkien orignally set out to creat a language and realized that
    a language had to have a history which brought him to create
    the stories.
   

    re .109:
    
    He was a linguist, after all.
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    re .109
    I thought he just (ingeneously) reworked a Scandinavian epic ??
    Of course, with the linguistic embellishments, et al.

    Tolkien obviously drew on his wide readings in myths and epics,
    but the Saga of the Rings is hisown story, not reworked from
    anything else.

I just finished re-reading the trilogy (a chapter a night, to
break in my new living quarters--I used to do this every time
I moved, up til about the tenth re-reading:-)).

Although it's still my favorite book ever, I had a couple of
critical nits to pick.  Of the three books, "The Fellowship of
the Ring" stills seems like the best written.  There are long
stretches of "The Return of the King" where Tolkien begins just
about every sentence with a conjunction, which gets to be an
annoying stylistic mannerism after a while.  Also, when I was
younger I didn't understand what a "servant" was so all those
references to Samwise being Frodo's servant kind of went over
my head and were ignored.  Now that aspect detracts a bit from
my reading of "The Two Towers" and "The Return of the King"--
I liked it better when I just thought of Sam, Frodo, Merry and
Pippin as just being four friends.

I think there have been some very critical studies written
about "The Lord of the Rings".  Has anyone read any of them
and found any validity in what they have to say?  (I believe
the American literary critic Edmund Wilson was quite scathing
in his criticism of Tolkien, but I tend to find most of the
works that Wilson likes boring or turgidly written.)

Then there's always "Bored with the Rings", by the National
Lampoon staff...:-)

    re "Bored with the Rings" was that the thing with heros
    named Frito nd Goodgulf ( as debarred Rosicrusian)? I
    remember throwing something like that away when I was
    in collge because I liked TLotR so much. Can a person
    who has read TLorR over 15 times and thinks it is one 
    of the best books ever written read the parody and
    like it?
    
    Bonnie

    re .114
    
    You need a somewhat twisted outlook and an enjoyment of cheap puns
    and wordplays, but it is possible to enjoy both.  
    
    /Dave
    

    I usually find that book-length parodies pall after a few pages.
    The names and word-play in "Bored" was cute - for the first couple
    of paragraphs; after that it stopped being funny, and since the
    book had no other redeeming qualities I dropped it.
    
    Same with "Doon", the "Dune" parody; once I saw how they'd hacked
    up the names (which *were* very funny) I lost interest.
    
    As for LOTR, I still enjoy re-reading it.
    
    Lost count after the 14th read-through,
    -b

    Re: .109-112
    
    Tolkien did draw on the Icelandic Elder Veddas (sp?) for personal
    names. In particular, there is a poem that contains the names of most
    of the dwarves mentioned in the LotR trilogy and the Hobbit.  Gandalf
    is the name of one of those dwarves, so Tolkien was quite willing to
    change the context of a name as he saw fit.  I'm not sure what some of
    his other sources were, but I believe he did a translation of Beowulf
    and I vaguely remember some reference to Middle Earth. Wasn't the term
    "Middle Earth" used a lot in teutonic legend?  I believe the actual
    term was Midgard.
    
    Re: "Bored ..."
    
    I thought the best part was the teaser just before the title page.
    
    Spoiler Warning:
    
    Remember the seduction scene where the comely elf maid whispers in
    Frito's ear, "Hairy toes!  I love hairy toes!" or something to that
    effect in an effort to get Frito to give her the Ring.  Of course the
    full scene never appears in the actual text, but what a perfect parody
    of paperback teasers. 
    
    Wook

    re .117 and the teaser......
    
    Yes, :-) - it was about the only thing that I found funny in
    the whole book.
    
    Hi Elrandir

re: .114, .118 & assorted miscellanea

Actually I read "Bored" back in '69, so I'm hard-pressed to
remember much of anything about it.

On the other hand, if I had known that I was going to be
subjected to "Sword of ShaNaNa" and 99 other imitations,
I might have appreciated "Bored" a bit more (:-)).

The racial formula used therein seems to have been taken
pretty much whole-hog by the imitators: elf, dwarf, goblin
(by whatever name), troll, tree-creatures, City men and
Horse men.  I think most of these came out of Nordic sagas,
although the hobbits and the Istari (as an order) seem like
innovations of Tolkien's (or maybe from Celtic sources?).

The Eddas had the universe divided up into nine worlds, if
my memory serves me right: Asgard (home of the Aesir, who
were one family of gods), Vanaheim (home of the Vanir, the
second family), Alfheim (home of the Elves), Midgard (home
of Men), Svartheim (home of Dwarfs), Jotunheim (home of
earth Giants), Muspelheim (home of fire Giants), Niflheim
(home of frost Giants) and Hel (home of the dead).

It seems to me that as TLOTR progressed, Tolkien tried to
adapt the "tone" to that of a saga/epic.  As a matter of
purely personal preference, I liked the slightly less
formal tone of TFOTR to the more formal style in TTT and
TROTK.  The more formal tone, on the other hand, seemed to
fit "Silmarillion" perfectly.

In no place does Tolkien lapse into archaisms (or is it
anachronisms?) of the type that make some other writers
unreadable when they're trying to set an antiquated tone.
Rumor has it that Hodgson was unreadable in "The Night Land"
(which I've never come across).  The case has also been put
forward for E. R. Eddison, although I liked "The Worm
Ouroboros" and "Mistress of Mistresses" in spite of the
numerous archaisms.

Zelazny has also been known to throw archaisms around, but
usually in absurd contrast to the Sam Spade patter of his
protagonists.  (I remember some crazy scene from "Creatures
of Light and Darkness" that goes something like: "Thence
came Horus to the city gate.  'Open the damned door or I'll
kick it down,' saith he."  You get the idea anyway...:-))

    "Middle Earth" used to be perfectly ordinary English for Earth,
    the ordinary world, aluding to its being midway between Heaven and
    Hell.  I'm sure the phrase comes from the Scandanavian "Midgard."
    
    ("Bored of the Rings" takes place in Lower Middle Earth, in the
    Third or Sheet-metal Age.)
    
    The name "hobbit" and most of the particulars aabout hobbits are
    Tolkien's own invention.  However, fairy mythology is well-stocked
    with child-sized people who live in hills.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    	I'm new to this file and have enjoyed reading all of your
    discussions.  One thing that always puzzled me is where Tom Bombadil
    and Goldberry fit into the cosmology.  By being oldest and fatherless
    I assume Bombadil was a Maia or some sort of elemental creature.
    Goldberry the daughter of the river seems to have been an elemental
    (perhaps the same type of fairy alleged to have married into the
    Took family.  My biggest dissapointment in the Silmarillion was
    that these my favorite characters and the Ents were not explained.
    
    	Any other theories out there?

    I have always assumed that Tom Bombadil and Goldberry were both
    Maiar.  Or, if you take it as literal that Goldberry is "the river-
    woman's daughter," perhaps she is half Maiar and half something
    else, like probably elf.  But I suspect they're really both Maiar.
    
    I'd assume any "elemental" in Tolkien was also a Maia, ditto the
    Barrow-wights and the Balrog.  (And wizards and Sauron.)
    
    Actually, the Silmarillion DID describe the origin of the Ents,
    just not in any great detail.  Aule the Smith grew impatient waiting
    for the creation of Elves and Men, and so created a race of his
    own, the Dwarves.  The One was mildly ticked at this, but Aule
    apologized, so He endowed the Dwarves with souls, on the condition
    that they be put in suspended animation until after the Elves appeared.
    
    So far none of this has anything to do with Ents.  But Aule's wife,
    Yavana, the Demeter equivalent, felt that the Dwarves would get
    out of hand and destroy the environment, so she petitioned Manwe
    to intercede for permission for her to create her own race.  The
    permission was granted and she created the Ents.  Either the Ents
    didn't wake until the Elves appeared, or they remained dumb and
    speechless until the Elves appeared, I can't tell which.
    
    I think Manwe himself created the race of talking Eagles that make
    occasional guest appearances throughout the history.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    I also think Tom Bombadil and Goldberry were Maiar.  He certainly
    couldn't have been an elf.  If he were, the chances of his feeling
    no effect whatsoever from the One Ring would have been nil.
    
    "Balrog" is the Sindarin form of the Quenya (High Eldarin) "Valarauko".
    "Vala-" means "power".  I've forgotten what "-rauko" means, but perhaps
    it means "demon".  Only the most powerful of the Eldar could hope to
    stand up to a balrog.  As I recall, Glorfindel (of Gondolin, not the
    one who met Frodo in the woods near Hobbiton) and Ecthelion were known
    to have battled them successfully, although both I believe perished in
    the act.  The Istari (wizards) had the power, but were often
    constrained by the human forms they wore.
    
    Regarding Ents (Onodrim), I seem to remember that they had a language
    of their own and that they were teachers of the elves, but I'm fuzzy
    here.  I'll have to check up on this one.  Yavanna knew that the
    children of Aule the Smith, would need wood to fire their forges and
    that the olvar (plants, growing things) had no one to defend them from
    the kelvar (animals, moving things).  BTW, The Old Man Willow of the
    Old Forest was probably a disgruntled Ent.  The walking elm tree of
    Hobbit legend was probably an entwife, perhaps the last one.
    
    It's possible that Thorondor was a maia in eagle form.  Didn't he
    wound Morgoth during a battle?  Gwaihir the Lord of the Eagles during
    the LotR was supposed to be descended from Thorondor.
    
    Wook Lee

    According to _The Silmarillion_, Balrogs were terrifying spirits
    of fire (which helps explain the "Flame of Udun" reference somewhere
    around .65).  The word is translated as "demons of terror".
    
    As far as the Ents go, I was half right.  The Ents (or at least
    Fangorn aka. Treebeard) kept lists of all living things, and in
    this list, the first four are Elves, Dwarves, Ents, and Men in that
    order.  The elves are definitely the first-born and Men are clearly
    the last, so I'm tempted to say that the first four are in order
    of awakening.  Fangorn told Merry and Pippin that the Elves gave
    the Ents their desire to speak, but not their language.  Indeed,
    Fangorn mentions that the Elves woke the trees themselves in order
    to learn *their* language!
    
    Regarding Eagles:  Thorondor was definitely *not* a maia (I really blew
    that one).  The eagles were a joint creation of Iluvatar and Yavanna, a
    "harmonizing of songs" as it were.  Yavanna offered to house the eagles
    in the tallest tree, but Iluvatar decreed that only the "trees of Aule"
    (ie. mountains) were tall enough.  Thorondor (aka. Sorontar in Quenya)
    did wound Morgoth in the face while recovering Fingolfin's body during
    the Dagor Bragollach.
    
    Gwaihir (Sindarin for "Wind-Lord") and his brother Landroval
    (translation?) were known as "the mightiest descendants of Thorondor."
    Eagles in fact took quite an active part in many of the major battles
    of Middle Earth.  They fought dragons in the Bragollach, fought during
    the Fall of Gondolin, the Battle of Five Armies (ref. _The Hobbit_),
    etc.  More than messagers to be sure.
    
    BTW, did you know that Lothlorien is a shortened form of the original
    name for that forest?  Trivia:  What was the original name and what
    did it mean?
    
    Wook

    "Lothlorien" translates as "dream-flower" ("flower-dream" in elven
    word order.)  Its original name was "Laurelindorinan," which according
    to Treebeard, meant "Land of the Valley of Singing Gold."
    
    (Laure = "gold"  lin = "song"  dor = "land"  nan = "valley")
    
    Both presumably refer to the yellow-flowering malorn trees, found
    nowhere else in Middle Earth, so far as I know.  (Though one grows
    in the Shire by the end of "Lord of the Rings.")
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    valley of the singing gold - :-) and why don't I log on to
    SF more often....
    
    and I *do not believe* that the walking elm was the last female
    ent - I think that the reason that the shire was so lovely
    was that it was the habitat of entwives....
    
    (from an ent believer :-) )
    
    Bonnie (Iluvanna)
    
    p.s. to Earl and Wook (Elrandir) one of the high school graduation
    presents that my son was given was a copy of the complete TLOTR
    - to be used for mental health breaks in college as needed...
    
    

    >- to be used for mental health breaks in college as needed...
    
    Ah! Those halcyon days.... A finer gift could not have been given!
    There were many days when old J.R.R. was the only thing between me
    and the dark shadows of Mordor.
    
    Re: Entwives
    
    Come to think of it, maybe Entwives are living in the Shire.  Fangorn
    mentioned that they preferred cultivated land and shrubs and grasses
    and that Men learned farming from them.  He also mentioned that they
    were said to have scattered west and east and south.
    
    Re: Mallorn (.-2)
    
    I've always felt that the Mellyrn in Lothlorien were somehow related
    to Laurelin in some fashion.  The leaves that turn gold in the fall
    and do not drop until spring and the yellow flowers always brought
    Laurelin to mind.  Perhaps the mallorn tree is related to Laurelin
    as the white trees Nimloth and Galathilion are related to Telperion.

    Nimloth was the White Tree that grew in Numenor and Galathilion
    was the White Tree of the Elves in Valinor.  They were images of
    Telperion, one of the Two Trees of Valinor that Morgoth destroyed.
    Maybe the mellyrn were made in the image of Laurelin.  I'd like
    to think so.
    
    Wook

	Wook,
    
    I don't know.  It doesn't seem like Laruelin and the Mellyrn are
    related, but then again....
    
        LAURELIN:
    
    "The other bore leaves of a young green like the new-opened beech;
    their edges were of glittering gold.  Flowers swung upon her branches
    in clusters of yellow flame, formed each to a glowing horn that
    spilled a golden rain upon the ground; and from the blosssom of
    that tree there came forth warmth and a great light."
    
					"Of the Beginning of Days"
    
    					-- The Silmarillion
       
    MELLYRN:
    
    "Their great grey trunks were of mighty girth, but their height
    could not be guessed."
    
    "'Mellyrn they are called, and are those that bear the yellow
    blossom....'"

    "The branches of the mallorn-tree grew out nearly straight from
    the trunk, and then swept upward; but near the top the main stem
    divided into a crown of many boughs, and among these they found
    that there had been built a wooden platform...."
    
    "As the light grew it filtered through the yellow leaves of the
    mallorn...."
    
    "In the Party Field a beautiful young sapling leaped up: it had
    silver bark and long leaves and burst into golden flowers in April."

    					-- Various LOTR references

    
    Unfortunately, I couldn't find the reference I was really looking
    for.  I seem to remember that the Mallorn trees had silver leaves,
    but in winter they turned golden.  Instead of falling in winter,
    they stayed until spring when new leaves would push them out and
    they would carpet the forest floor.
    
    From the quotes I have, I don't think a decision can be made as
    to the similarity between the trees.  I would think, though, that
    any such relationship would have been pointed out, as it was for
    the Telperion and the White Tree.

    				==ELB==

  There is one paragraph in LOTR that has always bugged me (yes, just one :-):

  "As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them.  
Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that 
his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said: 'All
is now ready.'" 

  This is at the Grey Havens at the passing of the ringbearers, and is on the
last full page or so of the actual story. 

  Now, it seems to me I recall that elves are supposed to be IMMORTAL, and
NEVER AGE.  Also, I do not believe that any other elf or half-elf (not even
Aragorn) was ever described as having facial hair in any of Tolkein's Middle
Earth works. 

  Cirdan is certainly an elf.  He is there early in the Silmarillion before 
the return of the Noldor to Middle Earth.

  Could it be that elves DO age, but so slowly that by the LOTR only the very 
oldest were showing the signs?  Cirdan IS, as far as we know, the oldest elf
in Middle Earth at the time.  I have estimated his age (from LOTR, the
Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and the Annals of Valinor) to be from ~17,550
years (assuming he was one of the first-awakened elves) to ~17,050 years
(where he is mentioned as being a lord among the Sindar of Beleriand). 

  Unfortunately, Galadriel, probably the second-oldest elf we see, is between 
~17,050 years (she was born after the Noldor settled in Valinor) and ~12,050 
years (when Feanor was inspired by her silver-gold hair to trap the light of 
the Trees).  She was of a similar age to the Sinda, yet she certainly appeared
youthful. 

  Celeborn and Glorfindel (and MAYBE Thranduil, Legolas' father) are probably
the only other old-timers.  Compare this with a paltry 6520 years for Elrond.
HA!  Barely out of diapers.  :-)

  So anyway, why does Cirdan look like an old man?  Could Galadriel have been 
protected from age because she saw the Trees in bloom?  Then what about 
Celeborn, her husband?

  Could Cirdan be half dwarf?  Maybe Aule didn't put them ALL back to sleep 
when he should have.   :-)

  Could Celebrimbor have made a mistake when he passed out the Rings of Power?
Was Narya one of the Seven Dwarf Rings?  Dwarves DO like fire.  That could
explain why Cirdan passed it off on Gandalf so quickly.  :-)   Of course, that
means that there's a Dwarf Lord out there somewhere tending flowers and
climbing trees. 

  Or is Cirdan so afraid of Sauron that he wears a fake beard as a disguise?
"Elf?  Naw, not ME!"

				==ELB==

:  Now, it seems to me I recall that elves are supposed to be IMMORTAL, and
:NEVER AGE.  Also, I do not believe that any other elf or half-elf (not even
:Aragorn) was ever described as having facial hair in any of Tolkein's Middle
:Earth works. 

Obviously, they age.  All throughout LotR, there is mention of the sons of
x and the daughters of y... Surely you do not mean to suggest that they 
were born totally grown up :-)  ?   Elves could die, if bodily harm came to
them (eg, spear, axe, dragon, etc)...  They could also 'waste away', eg
grow tired of the world and pass on to the halls of Manwe.

:years (assuming he was one of the first-awakened elves) to ~17,050 years
:(where he is mentioned as being a lord among the Sindar of Beleriand). 

You forgot leap years :-)

:  So anyway, why does Cirdan look like an old man?  Could Galadriel have been 
:protected from age because she saw the Trees in bloom?  Then what about 
:Celeborn, her husband?

Remember that Galadriel also had a ring whose property seemed to be related
to preservation (when the one ring was destroyed, CHANGE entered her woods and
she departed.  Seems it may have been preserving her as well.

:  Could Celebrimbor have made a mistake when he passed out the Rings of Power?
:Was Narya one of the Seven Dwarf Rings?  Dwarves DO like fire.  

Again, it was of fire but had another property (I forget which but it is
mentioned somewhere, eg the appendix of the RotK.)  It was given to Gandalf
because he would have great need of its properties.

:Beard?

Well, they did not invent the electric shaver at the time... He was waiting
around for its arrival.

-Joe

    Frankly, I think this is a small seam showing in Tolkien's
    worldbuilding.  Somewhere in the stuff edited by Christopher Tolkien,
    it says that elves don't age "unless one grow weary with ten thousand
    centuries."  So maybe Cirdan has been around for a million years.
    Also, he could have aged faster than Galadriel for "psychosomatic"
    reasons -- time weighs heavier on his mind, and thus his body, than
    it does for Galadriel.
    
    The beard, though, is a bit of a problem.  In one of Christopher's
    bits, Tolkien laid down a rule that elves and men with any considerable
    fraction of elf blood are beardless.  Obviously, that wasn't the
    rule he used in LotR.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    RE: .129
    
    Although I don't remember any elves actually dying of old age, there
    are cases where long suffering or grief brings on the appearances
    of aging.  The example that comes to mind is in the story of Beren
    and Luthien, where Thingol ages "as it were the hoar age of mortal men"
    when Luthien has disappeared with Beren.

    I have a set of records put out by Caedmon of excerpts and stories
    from LOTR and The Silmarillion.  These may no longer be available
    and I was wondering how many others are aware of them.
    
    The one is a set that has a couple of records of J.R.R. himself
    reading excerpts (mostly poems) from LOTR.  These are not really
    that great, as they were cut from some casually recorded tapes made
    by some friends of his.  They were not meant for commercial use
    and the quality is somewhat poor.  The best record in the set, though,
    is the complete story of "Beren and Luthien" read by Christopher
    Tolkien.  It is great to hear this story told with the "proper"
    British accent and with the names pronounced as intended!  Just
    hearing this story with no other background knowledge got one of
    my friends turned on to Tolkien a few years ago.
    
    Another single record has Christopher Tolkien reading another chapter
    from The Silmarillion, "Of the Darkening of Valinor".  This is not
    as much of a standalone story as the other one, but is good listening
    anyway.  I saw this one recently in cassette form in a book store.
    
    Does anyone else have these recordings?  Any comments on them?

    Re: .129-130
    
    I think I've decided that mellyrn are "echoes of Laurelin in the
    Harmonies of Yavanna" (the phrase is all mine) which is to say that
    they are not as directly related as the various White Trees are to
    Telperion, but there is a relationship none the less.  (Well, *I* think
    so.)  At any rate, they remind me of Laurelin which as a member of the
    Second Children of Iluvatar, I must consider at least Telperion's
    equal.
    
    As for Cirdan, who's to say that he didn't want to grow a beard?
    :^)  We should note that probably no other being has bid farewell
    to so many as the Master of the Grey Havens.  That would depress
    anyone, even if they were going to Valinor.
    
    Narya was definitely not one of the Seven, but of the Three, it is the
    one that probably would have appealed most to the Dwarves.  Still,
    inspite of its power over fire, both mundane and magical, it was
    probably its power to fan the fires of the heart that was most
    important.  Nenya seemed to have the power to preserve and also
    allowed the user to manipulate water (cf. the Mirror of Galadriel).
    
    Does anyone remember any references to any specific powers for Vilya?
    It was supposed to be the most powerful of the Three, but I can't
    seem to remember anything specific.  I presume it would control
    aspects of air. See replies .99 and .100 for the previous discussion
    of Rings.
    
    Wook

    Vilya was described as the RIng of Air and was given to Elrond.
    The only magic we ever see Elrond perform is the flood that sweeps
    away the Black Riders after Frodo crosses the Bruinen into Rivendell.
    Presumably he used Vilya for that, though it seems more like water
    magic than like air.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Aha! But Elrond was a healer and lore-master, and the Last Homely
    House was a place where many came to rest and be healed. Perhaps
    Elrond's ring had to do with healing, of the spirit as well as the
    body...
    
    -b

    Elrond may have been a healer, but apparently Vilya's power was not
    able to heal his wife, Celebrian, daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn,
    when she was wounded in an ambush by orcs.  As I recall, her body
    healed, but her spirit wasted away until it was clear she would never
    find peace in Middle Earth.  I think she sailed out of Mithlond early
    in the Third Age, but someone should check me on this.  (Of course,
    I'll try to check it myself.) 
    
    As for the flooding of the river, (wasn't it the Bruinen, the
    Loudwater?) Vilya could have caused it, since waves are generated by
    the wind.  I guess we'll have to check this one too.  Were there any
    references to a wind or breeze at the fords? 
    
    Perhaps it gave Elrond powers like that of Manw� in that he may have
    been able to talk to birds.  I mean, Manw� did use eagles to send
    messages.  It may have helped Elrond to gather the extensive amount
    of knowledge that he seemed to have.  Didn't he pretty much stick to
    Imladris during the Third Age? 
    
    Someone should check references in _The Hobbit_ for situations where
    Vilya may have been used.  Perhaps something in the description of the
    Last Homely House can shed some more light on Vilya's powers. 
    
    Wook

      The Three were made by Celebrimbor alone for the purpose of Healing,
    Making, and Understanding, and for preserving things untouched (a
    para-quote from somewhere).  Sauron did not aid in their forging,
    nor did he touch them or even set eyes upon them.  The One, however, 
    could still control them, if Sauron could regain it.
    
    
   			VILYA, the Ring of Air
    
      It was of silver with a saphire, as I recall, and belonged to first
    Gil-Galad, then to Elrond, his herald.
    
      Time seemed to pass strangely in Imladris.  There was the impression
    that things that were happening were not quite real.  A calming effect
    seemed to permeate the place.  Also, it seemed that Imladris wouldn't
    be too difficult to find.  Why didn't Sauron smash the place, or at least
    spy upon it?  I think Vilya warded the area against him.  As far as we
    know, Elrond did not leave it since it was founded.  Elrond had a
    reputation for being a great healer, but was that his own skill or was
    that due to the Ring?  I feel that Vilya, more than the others, was for
    "Healing". 

      There was the trick at the ford, with the flash flood.  I suppose
    Vilya could have done it, but it seems Nenya would be more suitable.
    

    
    
    			NENYA, the Ring of Water
    
      It was of Mithril with a diamond.  It was given to Galadriel,
    who kept it throughout its history.
        
      Nenya was the Ring with the most "Preserving", for it had the power to
    keep Lorien in some kind of time stasis.  Months (or weeks?) outside
    passed while only days passed inside.  The moon didn't shine there, and
    growing things didn't die.  Mallorn trees grew, which would grow
    nowhere else east of the Sea (except for Sam's Party Tree).  It was
    said that Galadriel could perceive the Dark Lord's mind, but his way to
    the elves were ever closed.  It was said that "not only with arrows is
    this realm defended" or something like that.  Perhaps this implies a
    force similar to the Girdle of Melian that encircled Doriath (Galadriel
    DID know Melian personally).  I feel that the Mirror of Galadriel
    worked because of Nenya.  In addition to the Mirror, Galadriel showed
    some prophetic powers when she issued her prediction about gold not
    dominating Gimli, and when she gifted certain of the Company (the light
    crystal comes to mind).  During Eorl's time, a great fog band issued
    from Lorien to hide the horsemen from orcs as they were on their way to
    aid Gondor. Like Elrond, Galadriel does not seem to move from Lorien.
    Would all these whizzy effects disappear if she did? 
    
    
    
    
    			NARYA, the Ring of Fire
    
      Narya was of gold, with a red stone that "shone like fire".  It
    was given to Gil-Galad, who gave it to Cirdan the (bearded) Shipwright,
    who gave it to Gandalf.  (By the way, I was just joking when I said
    it was a Dwarf Ring.)
    
      Gandalf was told by Cirdan that it could quicken the hearts of others,
    or something that implied a morale-booster.  Of course, Gandalf often
    played with fire: with his fireworks, a torch effect from the end of
    his staff, some modest fireballs, starting a fire in a blizzard, and
    surely a few more.  He was very much against starting the fire, for he
    said Sauron could detect it.  Could it be because the effect was
    produced by one of the Rings of Power? At times Gandalf seemed to have
    a bad temper.  Was this a side-effect of the "firey" Ring?  Narya was
    the one of the Three with the most "Understanding", for Gandalf seemed
    to be a great judge of character and inner strengths. It could be that
    Narya preserved Gandalf from the physical temptations that overcame the
    other four wizards. 

    
      Of course, any of the powers I have mentioned could be due to
    the personal abilities of the individual possessing the Ring, and
    not of the Ring itself.  It is likely that the Rings magnified existing
    abilities in their wielders.
    
    				==ELB==

    Perhaps my memory is faulty, but I thought Elrond's ring was the
    one made of mithril.  Also, I believe time passed normally in Lorien,
    you just tended not to notice it.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    RE:  -.1
    
      Could be, could be....
    
      I was doing that from memory, so the metals of the Three might
    be wrong.  The gems were definately a saphire, an "adamant" (diamond?),
    and a "red stone" (ruby?) for Vilya, Nenya, and Narya respectively.
    
      However, I DO think there was some kind of actual (vs. perceived)
   time slip in Lorien.  Can somebody check on that?


      Another "Ring" question:
    
      The twenty Rings of Power tended to magnify the tendencies of
    the races that held them.  That is....
    
      The One gave Sauron dominance over all the others and tended to
    corrupt any who used it to evil deeds.
    
      The Three of the Elves did Elf-like things, such as Healing, Making,
    Understanding, and Preserving.  Nothing nasty at all.  Elrond tells
    us that the Three are not weapons.
    
      The Seven of the Dwarves made their wearer greedy, and if gold
    was available, it could make more gold (I assume this is not actual
    transmutation but rather success in business or luck in mining).
    
      The Nine of Men apparently gave them power to allow them to dominate
    their areas.  They were great kings, until they were ensaved by
    the Rings they wore.
    

    
      My question is, were these powers built into the Rings, or were
    they a result of the nature of their wielders (the One, I am sure,
    was ready-made).
    
      That is, if Sauron had given one of the Seven to a Man, would
    he become rich and greedy and Dwarf-like, or would he be a tenth
    Nazgul?
    
    
      If the latter, then thank goodness the Hobbits didn't get a set.
    
      "...Nine for Mortal Men Doomed to Die,
       And eleven for Hobbits, Doomed to Dig..."

    
      And why weren't any Ent-rings made?      
    
				==ELB==

<      The twenty Rings of Power tended to magnify the tendencies of
<      the races that held them.  
    
<      My question is, were these powers built into the Rings, or were
<      they a result of the nature of their wielders (the One, I am sure,
<      was ready-made).

Well, even tho Sauron had a great deal of input in their making, I doubt
the elves built in those qualities.  After all, when Sauron reclaimed
them, he passed them out to various groups in various numbers (to those
he could 'control' as it were.  So it seems that your first statement
(about magnifying the attributes already there) is more likely.  And
do not forget that SAuron with the One Ring could influence them.

Ent-rings?  Ents never seemed likely to be swayed by Sauron so I doubt
he was interested in such.


As to the preserving nature, it seems upon further reflection that ALL
the rings seem to have that property (The One ring did, look how long
Bilbo lived; The nine also for the same reason;  The Dwarves, who knows
since most of their rings were either recaptured or destroyed by dragons).

-Joe

    At the Council of Elrond, I believe, Gandalf remarks that the ability
    to extend lifespan was a feature of the "great rings" alone.  And
    since the Nine, the Seven, and the Three were accounted for, Bilbo's
    ring, which had so obviously extended the lives of Bilbo and Gollum,
    must be Sauron's missing One.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

 	   			VILYA
    
      "...and upon his [Elrond's] finger was a ring of gold with a great
    blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three."

    
    
	    			NENYA
 
      "[The Evening Star's] rays glanced upon a ring about her finger;
    it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and
    a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to
    rest upon her hand."
    
      "'This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.'"
       
      "On her [Galadriel's] finger was Nenya, the ring wrought of mithril,
    that bore a single white stone flickering like a frosty star."
    
    
    
	    			NARYA
    
      "...Gandalf now wore openly on his hand the Third Ring, Narya
    the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire."

      In an earlier note, I commented that Gandalf was a great judge
    of character, and this possibly was because of Narya.  Also we find
    that Cirdan was a great judge of character, for he gave Narya not
    to the leader of the Istari, but to Gandalf.

    
    
	    		    TIME IN LORIEN

      "Well, I can remember three nights there for certain, and I seem
    to remember several more, but I would take my oath it was never
    a whole month.  Anyone would think that time did not count in there!"
    
    					-- Sam
    
      "In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long
    gone by.  It was not, I think, until Silverlode bore us back to
    Anduin that we returned to the time that flows through mortal lands
    to the Great Sea.  And I don't remember any moon...."
    
    					-- Frodo


    				==ELB==

re:  .-1

One can assume, that in order to use the power of any of the rings, it
was first necessary to put on the ring.  Throughout the books, GANDALF
is generally talked about always in the company of others.  Yet the only
time (apparently) he has put on the ring is in the ship at the very end.
All other times, there was no mention of the ring on his finger.  I doubt
very much that he had to use that ring to make a little fire anyway; It
must have been his own abilities (he WAS a wizard, after all :-))

Without actually going over to DEJAVU conference, is there any
correlation between the ring stones and the properties they seemed to
have with 'crystal' theory?

-Joe

    Re: .144
    
    Remember that Sam could not see Nenya on Galadriel's hand.  He thought
    it was a star shining between her fingers as she held it up.
    
    Wook

    As -.1 said, the Rings of Power (or at least the Three) could only
    be seen by the bearer of the One.  It is possible that both Gandalf
    and Elrond were ALWAYS wearing their Rings, and the only reason
    that they were visible at the end was because all Twenty lost power
    with the destruction of the One.
    
    Or, perhaps the Rings could be used (at least  partially) without
    being worn.  Certainly the life-extending property of the One worked
    on Frodo without his wearing it once.
    
    I read somewhere that the Three were responsible for the decline
    of the Elvish race.  The reasoning goes, that since it is said that
    Saruon put much of his own vital life-force (or whatever) into the
    One, he poofed away into smoke when the One was destroyed.  Perhaps
    Celebrimbor put much of the vital energy of the Elves into the Three,
    and it was lost when the Rings died, and the Elves declined into
    a "rustic folk of hill and dale."
    
    				==ELB==

    Re .144 or thereabouts
    
    Yes, Frodo speculates that they were not in normal time in Lorien,
    but Aragorn corrects him, saying something like, "Time tarries not,
    and all things wear away under this sun, but the wearing is slow
    in Lorien."  And Frodo answers in half verse, "Long are the hours
    though swift they seem, in Lorien, where Galadriel wields the elven
    ring."
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Do you interpret that as meaning that time passes normally, but
    one doesn't notice it?
    
    It seems to me to confirm that there IS a time-slip.
    
    Wook and any others, what do you think? 

    				??ELB??

    Seems to me the real question is whether Lorien affects the passage
    of time or the perception of the passage of time.  There are different
    effects depending on which is actually going on.  For instance,
    hair growth is presumably dependent on the passage of time.  Boredom
    is dependent on the perception of the passage of time.  If we could
    compare things like this for those both in and out of Lorien, you'd
    find that hair growth was comparable, but boredom far greater. 
    Of course we're assuming that one isn't being chased by a troop
    of orcs. :^)
    
    Wook

    I'll buy that.  In other words, we really can't be sure, and probably
    JRR intended it to be that way.
    
    We've discussed the Three, and to some extent the One.  How about the
    others?  The Seven were only seen offstage, unfortunately, but the
    Nazgul were pretty active in the tale.  Can anyone spot some things
    that the Witch-King or one of his fellows pulled that could be
    attributed to their Rings?  Of course, the Nine enslaved their wielders
    and preserved their lives in a shadowy sort of way. 
    
    Sauron was said to "hold the Nine".  Did he literally keep the Rings to
    control the Nazgul or is that a poetic phrase, with the Nazgul really
    wearing them, and serving Sauron out of habit?
    
    How easily could the bearer of the One control the Nazgul?  If the
    Witch-King (admittedly a powerful sort of guy) obtained the One in his
    search, what is to stop him from using it himself to dethrone his old
    master? 

    Also, where the Seven and Nine anywhere near as powerful as the
    Three?  A friend of mine says that an equivalent amount of power
    went into each "rank" of the Rings.  That is, one of the Nine was
    about one-third as strong as one of the Three.

    				ooooELBooooo

    The Seven were distributed to the seven Dwarf Fathers.  Of course,
    the only one we hear of is Durin.  I seem to recall that Durin's
    ring was the most powerful of the Seven but I can't remember where
    and for all I know, I may just be making it up.  As has been said
    before, the Seven were designed to enslave the Dwarf Fathers just
    as the Nine enslaved the human kings, but Dwarves are made of peculiar
    stuff.  Sauron always seems to have problems with things that Aul�
    makes or aids.  His desire to enslave the Dwarves probably comes
    from his own jealousy and hatred which reflected Morgoth's jealousy
    of Aul�.  (Aside.  I wonder what group of Dwarves fought in the
    wars against Morgoth in the First Age?  Were the Dwarves of Belegost
    and Nogrod of Durin's kin?)
    
    I've always presumed that Sauron actually had possession of the
    Nine, but now that you mention it, I'm not so sure.  For instance,
    the skirmish at Weathertop (Amon S�l for you Sindarin speakers,
    if I recall correctly) shows that the Nazgul are more in the shadow
    world than in the real.  This is a known to be an effect of the
    Great Rings.  It seems that this effect lessens when the bearer
    no longer actually wears his ring (cf. Bilbo).  Of course, at first,
    the shift into the shadow world is completely reverseable so that
    a Great Ring is effectively a Ring of Invisibility, but after a
    while, with continuous use, one finds onself less and less a part
    of the real world.
    
    On the other hand, it is said that during the Third Age, Sauron
    was "gathering the Rings onto himself" or somesuch.  That would
    seem to imply that he was actually taking possession of the Rings,
    as he certainly did with all of the Seven that weren't consumed
    in Dragon fire.  (Aside.  I wonder what consuming a Great Ring did
    to a dragon's innards?  I suppose it just made them greedier and
    ornerier.  I hope it caused perpetual indigestion! :^)
    
    As for the question of the Witch King of Angmar using The One Ring
    to take Sauron's place, remember that using the One required great
    will.  Now, while the Witch-King was once a man of great will, it
    is unlikely that he has much of his own left after literally centuries
    of subjugation under Sauron.  Remember how dependent the Nazgul
    were on Sauron's will.  It's possible, but I think it is more likely
    that he would have just been "happy" to have fulfilled his master's
    wish and given the Ring to Sauron.  It largely depends on how much
    on the original man is left.  My guess is precious little (or is
    that prrreccccciousssss little? :^)
    
    I'm going to check that scene at Weathertop and at the Bruinen Fords
    again to see if I can catch something I may have missed before.
    (Not that I've ever seen anything new when I reread any of JRR's
    stuff. [lie] :^)
    
    In the meantime,
    
    Nam�ri�!
    
    Wook

    This has been a marvelous discussion - just what I had hoped for
    when I first joined SF  - and I haven't logged on since the 15th..
    
    

    Well, folks, I went right to the source and reread several chapters
    in _The Fellowship of the Ring_.  Here is some of what I discovered:
    
    In the Council of Elrond, Gandalf explicitly states that "The Nine
    the Nazgul keep."  As for the Seven, Gloin reports that an emissary
    of Sauron visited Dain at Erebor offering three of the Seven
    (presumably the ones he managed to retrieve) if the Dwarves would
    capture and return the Ring ("the least of rings" according to the
    emissary) that Bilbo had found.  There are also other references to
    lesser rings that, like the One Ring, were unadorned.  Saruman is
    described as wearing a ring, so he apparently was experimenting
    with the Ring Lore that he had devoted his life to studying.  There
    is also a comment by Gloin hinting that the Seven had other powers
    besides making their holders more greedy.
    
    As for special Nazgul-ish abilities, there is the aura of evil that
    they carry around with them, and at the Bruinen Fords, the Witch-King
    shatters Frodo's barrow-blade with a gesture.
    
    BTW, there was mention made of the fact that the passage of time
    in Rivendell is peculiar, in fact it seems similar to the description
    of the way time flows in Lorien.  Bilbo says, "Time doesn't seem
    to pass here: it just is."  Interesting....
    
    A Elbereth Gilthoniel!
    
    Wook

RE:  .151

  Durin's Ring was said (by Gimli?) to be the "Greatest of the Seven" and was 
given to Durin III not by Sauron but by Celebrimbor, though Sauron had a part 
in its making.

  The powers of the Seven were certainly more than just making their wearers 
greedy.  It was said that they could make gold, but they needed gold to make 
gold.  Like I said before, I do not believe this to be transmutation, but 
success in business.  When the Dwarves escaped the Sack of Erebor, King Thror
(Is he the one?  I am referring to Thorin's grandfather.) had Durin's Ring,
but it didn't do him much good, because the Blue Mountain homes that they 
moved to were rich only in iron.  The old king eventually went wandering, and 
found his way to Khazad-dum (Moria), no doubt with some crazy scheme like 
Balin later had to retake the treasures there.  Of course, he was taken and 
killed by Orcs, starting the great Dwarf-Orc war.

  Now he had passed the Ring on to his son (Thrain?), who was Thorin's father.
This Dwarf later went wandering himself, and was caught by Sauron.  The Dark
Lord stuck him in his dungeons in Dol Guldur and eventually managed to take
Durin's Ring from him.  Now this is an interesting part.  Why was it so
difficult?  Why couldn't he just beat him up or something and remove it?  The
implication that I recall is that Thrain had to give it up of his own (free?)
will.  This was around the time of _The Hobbit_.  Gandalf and the White 
Council drove "the Necromancer" out and the wizard spoke with the broken Dwarf 
before the latter died, obtaining the map and key of Erebor.

  The Seven were also said to not influence Dwarvish life spans.  They lived 
neither longer or shorter because of them.

  The Great Rings didn't turn all who wore them invisible.  An obvious example 
is Galadriel.  It depended, I think, on the power (or force of will?) of the 
wearer.  Certainly if Frodo had put on Nenya, he would have vanished in a 
trice.  I suspect Sauron was visible when he wore the One, for Elendil and
Isildur managed to find him to do battle.

  As far as The Seven Houses of the Dwarves go, I believe I have identified
four.

  The earliest Dwarves encountered in Tolkien's history are those of Belegost
and Nogrod, sitting in the Blue Mountains (these are Sindarin names -- the 
Dwarves called them something else).  This was back when Thingol was King of
the Sindar and before the Noldor returned from the West.  As I recall,
Belegost had "nice" Dwarves who, among other things, fought side-by-side with
the Noldor against Morgoth, and may have been the ones to help Finrod and
Thingol dig their underground cities.  The Nogrod Dwarves were the ones that
Thingol had set the Silmaril in the Necklace of the Dwarves, and who later
killed the elf king for it, in part starting the ages-old feud between Elves
and Dwarves. 

  What happened to these Dwarf cities?  Well, they used to be located in the 
Blue Mountains, where the Gulf of Lune is now.  Yes, they were blasted away or 
sunk at the end of the First Age with most of the Elvish realms of Beleriand. 
Survivors made their way to join Durin's Folk at Khazad-Dum.  As to the ruling
houses, no metion is made of them after the First Age ends.  It is possible, I
suppose, that they were of Durin's Folk to begin with, but I do not believe 
it.

  The third Dwarf House encountered is, of course, Khazad-dum, the greatest of 
them all, by Elves who made their way into Eriador after the War of Wrath.  
All Dwarves seen in LotR were from this house, and it is possible it is the 
only one left at the end of the Third Age.  See LotR for more info.

  The fourth is a guess.  Get a map of Middle Earth and follow the chain of 
the Misty Mountains north.  Right before you hit the Northern Wastes you will 
find Carn-dum, which was the base, I believe, for the Witch-King when he 
helped destroy Arnor.  "DUM" is the Dwarvish word for mansion or dwelling, as 
in Khazad-dum, "Mansions of the Dwarves".  Could this have been a Dwarf city
that was destroyed or deserted and later adopted by the Witch-King?  I don't
know.  On the other hand "CARN" is the Sindarin word for "red", I think, so it
could be an Elvish term after all and not related to the Dwarves. 


RE: .152

  I agree.  We've been having some great discussions here.


RE: .153

  I am afraid that I am quite pleased with myself and will probably be 
unbearable for a week.  I THOUGHT there was some kind of weird time-flow in 
Imladris as well as Lorien.  I still say they were caused by Vilya and Nenya, 
respectively.

  Are you sure that the breaking of the barrow blade wasn't caused by 
attacking the Witch-King, whom no blade could touch, or whom no man could 
slay, or something like that?  Did he actually cause it to break?


				oooELBoooo

    Sorry about that.  One shouldn't stutter in notes files.  :-)
    
    About Saruman's ring when he imprisons Gandalf, he himself gives
    as one of his titles "the Ringmaker".
    
    Yes, Dragon-Fire could melt the Great Rings (but not the One, I
    think).  I suspect that the dragons suffered no indigestion.  :-)
    The Rings just melted.
    
    After entering the previous note I got to thinking.  WHO GOT THE
    SEVEN?  My speculation is that Nogrod and Belegost were two of the
    Dwarf Father's headquarters.  If that is true, then by the time
    the Rings were made in the middle of the Second Age, at least two
    of the Seven Houses were missing.  Or were they based in Khazad-dum,
    where the survivors of the Blue Mts went?  So did Khazad-dum have
    Three of the Seven?  Or were the Seven given out to the most powerful
    Dwarves around, without regard to the ancient houses, the number
    seven retained for symbolic reasons?

    If indeed three of the Seven were at Khazad-dum, then Sauron could have
    recovered two when Durin's Folk were driven out by the Balrog.
    
    As to the other Dwarvish strongholds, we know that some existed
    at the time of the Great Dwarf-Orc War (or whatever it was called)
    because it was said that other Houses were called in to help Durin's
    Folk.
    
    Okay, let's try to tally the Seven.  Durin's Ring we know about.
    Let's assume that two more of the Seven were given to survivors
    of Belegost and Nogrod.  That makes three.
    
    And four were melted by Dragons.  I think most of the Dwarf strongholds
    have been destroyed or rendered uninhabitable.
    
     
 				oooELBoooo
    
    

>  the Witch-King shatters Frodo's barrow-blade with a gesture.

I say this was more because of his wizard-like abilities than the actual ring
of power.  Why?  Well, positing that Gandalf did NOT always wear his, but 
rather kept it hidden, we see Gandalgf had control over weapons when Aragorn,
Gimli, and Legolas catch up to him in the woods, where they mistake him for
Saruman.  Based on this, I say the weapon breaking was not a property of
the ring of power.

-Joe

> found his way to Khazad-dum (Moria), no doubt with some crazy scheme like 
> Balin later had to retake the treasures there.  

Me thinks Balin's reason to go back was to actual reclaim the realm and was
not really treasure oriented.  Of course, they wouldn't turn their noses
up/down at mithril, would they?  The entire Balin party was there for quite
a while with evidence that they were there to stay, not just raiding it for
treasure.

> Why couldn't he just beat him up or something and remove it?  The
> implication that I recall is that Thrain had to give it up of his own (free?)
> will.  

A clue to this one might be when Gandalf could have taken the One from Bilbo
or Frodo.  I recall it being stated that he could take it by force, but it
would break the mind of the hobbit to do so.  Perhaps Sauron had other plans
for the dwarf.  After all, he did like to keep his prisoners lingering and
in pain!

>  The Great Rings didn't turn all who wore them invisible.  An obvious example 
>  is Galadriel.  It depended, I think, on the power (or force of will?) of the 
>  wearer.  

Good point.

> Certainly if Frodo had put on Nenya, he would have vanished in a 
> trice.  

Perhaps.  Speculation only, unless you have any passages that hint at this.

> I suspect Sauron was visible when he wore the One, for Elendil and
> Isildur managed to find him to do battle.

I would think so too.  There is one explicit example of someone wearing the
ring and not vanishing, that being Tom Bombadil.  He was obviously a very
forceful person with the ability/talent/luck not to be dominated.


-Joe

    
    Besides, a Hobbit did in fact wound the Witch-King with a blade
    just prior to Eowyn's slaying the Witch-King, although it cost him
    dearly...  Had Frodo done the same with Aragorn not present, he
    may not have survived.

	Mike

    I suspect that one power that the Nine provided was that of Command,
    or Domination.

    In the Shire, the Gaffer blabbed away all sorts of stuff to this
    strange Black Rider that he shouldn't.  This could indicate that
    the Rider forced him, but I suppose it is just as likely that the
    old hobbit was senile or else naturally an idiot.
    
    On Weathertop, Frodo put the One on his finger, making him a much
    easier target for the Witch-king.  As I recall he felt a compulsion
    that over-rode all other thoughts.

    At the fords, when a wounded Frodo was riding Glorfindel's horse
    (Asfaloth???), the Nazgul called to him, and he almost waited for
    them.  Then he called the name of Elbereth, and was freed.
        
    The Witch-King was a great leader of men (or whatever :-).  At his
    demise, Gothmog (the Lieutenant of [Minas] Morgul) took over.  I
    am pretty certain this is another of the Nazgul.
    
    The power of the Nazgul's Bad Breath... excuse me, BLACK Breath
    could also have come from their Rings, or at least from their shadowy
    existance caused by their Rings.

    As a trivia note, the names of three of the Nazgul were Witch-king/
    Black Captain/Morgul Lord (not names, but titles), Gothmog (if I
    am correct in supposing him a Nazgul) and Kamul (sp?) the Easterling
    (second greatest of the Nazgul).
    
    
    
    Yet another "Seven" fact I just remembered.  One of the reasons
    Balin retook Moria was to find Durin's Ring, which he thought was
    lost there.

    
    				==ELB==

    Re. Galadriel, Nenya, and disappearing acts
    
    I hate to differ [lie, I *love* to differ], but I'd like to point
    out that elves dwell simultaneously in both "worlds".  I refer you
    to the fact that while Aragorn and the other hobbits appeared dim
    and shadowy when Frodo put on the Ring, Glorfindel appeared bright
    and the Nazgul could be seen clearly.  I think that immortals like
    the elves (eg. Galadriel) and maia (e.g. Sauron and perhaps Tom
    Bombadil) naturally exist in both this world and the shadow realm.
    Mortals like men and hobbits usually exist in either one or the
    other.  This would explain why mortals have a tendency to fade or
    become transparent as they begin to shift permanently into the shadow
    realm.
    
    Re: Sword breaking by the Witch-King
    
    "Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing
    in his stirrup, and raised up his hand.  Frodo was stricken dumb. He
    felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword
    broke and fell out of his shaking hand.  The elf horse reared and
    snorted...."
    
    It seems to me that Ole Witchy was using a Niner to put the F-whammy on
    poor Frodo!  Pretty nasty if you ask me.  Just before this, "...
    [Frodo] felt that he was commanded urgently to halt."  Looks like
    W-K did the C-whammy on Fro, too.
    
    BTW, it looks like those barrow-blades exist partly in the shadow
    realm.  The seem to flare like red flame, at least to Frodo who
    was on the verge of permanent wraith-hood.
    
    Wook

    Re: .158
    
    It was said in prophecy that no man would *kill* the Witch-King.
    Merry wounded him, but Eowyn delivered the coup de grace.  Also,
    remember that the blade Merry used was forged in Arnor (or what
    was left of the three kingdoms that replaced it) during the war
    against Angmar.  It was one of those red blazers mentioned in the
    previous reply.
    
    Wook

    Re: .156 Gandalf control over weapons
    
    I would say that Gandalf *always* wore Narya, but that most of the
    time no one noticed (cf. Nenya at the Mirror of Galadriel).  Also,
    note that the things that happened to the weapons when post B-nasty
    Gandalf (looking a few shades paler ;^) meets Aragorn, Legolas and
    Gimli.  Gimli's axe leaps out of his hand, Anduril blazes with fire,
    and Legolas' arrow bursts into flame.  This has "Narya" written
    all over it.  Gandalf even pulls a C-whammy on Legolas, making him
    drop his bow and arrow.  Gimli, too, because he freezes before he
    can get his hand on his axe.  Of course, Narya being a pure elven
    Ring, it probably doesn't do the F-whammy.
    
    Wook

    About Elves dwelling in both worlds, I disagree.  It was my feeling
    that Glorfindel shown brightly in the shadow world NOT because he
    was an Elf, but because he had seen the Trees.
    
    Galadriel is also in this class, but certainly not Elrond, who was
    born long after the Trees got the P-whammy :-) put on it by Ungoliant.
    
    And I feel it is important to point out that GANDALF WAS NOT A MAIAR.
    Olorin was a Maiar.  Then Manwe did something to put Olorin the
    Maiar into the form of an old Man, who had to suffer with "the cares
    of the world" and all that.  
    
    "Olorin I was in the West that is FORGOTTEN."  (My emphasis.)
    
    Somewhere else it is said that "Of Olorin we know only what is revealed
    in Gandalf."  That is, they are similar, and upon meeting Olorin
    in Valinor, one would probably detect personality similarities,
    but I do not think they are the same.


    About Frodo vanishing if he put on Nenya, yes, that is pure supposition.
    
        			==ELB==

    Excuse me, but could we drop the cutesy "P-whammy" "F-whammy" talk?
    I find it a little too obscure.

    re several....
    
    Wasn't it proposed or decided earlier in this discussion that
    Bombadil was either a Maia or the child of one?
    
    Also I don't understand why (.163) says that Gandalf was not
    a Maia - I thought all the wizards were Maia in "human form"
    which is why they had the powers to combat Sauron.

    RE: -.1
    
    In his origin, Gandalf was a Maia.  But what I am trying to say
    (perhaps not well :-) is that in his "Wizard" form, Gandalf was a Man,
    with the cares and troubles of Men.  He didn't age, of course, and he
    got other benefits from his origin, but as we see him he wasn't a
    divine being.
    
    Even he doesn't remember the details of his past life in the Blessed
    Realm.
    
    As Gandalf the White, he was probably closer to his "true" form
    of the Maia Olorin.
    
    The Valar did this intentionally.  They did not want their emmisaries
    to directly combat Saruon.  The last time something like that was
    done, almost all of Beleriand was smashed beneath the waves.  No,
    the Istari (Wizards) were charged with supporting the existing Free
    Peoples and urging them to form alliances.  Since Man was the dominant
    race, they were put into the forms of Man, not Elves, Dwarves, or
    any other.
    
    I am saying that I think Olorin and Gandalf were distinct, but linked
    beings.  Olorin was around for the Creation and saw the First and
    Second Ages pass (he may have been friends with Galadriel before the
    Flight of the Noldor for all we know).  Then around 1000 T.A.  Olorin
    ceased to exist and the being known as Gandalf or Mithrandir was
    created from him to be sent on a mission to Middle Earth.  After his
    return, I am sure Gandalf will be made back into Olorin again.
    
    Does that make any more sense, or are you all now convinced that
    I do heavy drugs?   :-)

        
    RE: -.2
    
    Okay, Earl, no more cutesy names from me.

    
    				==ELB==

    RE: .-3
    
    Sorry about the cutesy terms, Earl.  I admit that my mind doesn't
    always function in conventional terms late at night and that night
    it was in an (annoyingly) cutesy mood.
    
    RE: Gandalf, Glorfindel and otherworldly shining
    
    The point about Gandalf is well taken.  But in spite of the mundaneness
    of Gandalf's outer form and the limitations inherent in it, there
    still seems to be something fundamentally different about him,
    different enough to change the effects of a Great Ring.  There is
    also something about elves in general that make them different from
    mere mortals.  C�rdan also didn't see the Trees, but I doubt that
    wearing a Ring made him disappear.  I do think that if Aragorn had
    worn the Ring, he would have become quite invisible.
    
    There is something about magic and magical energy that made it visible
    while Frodo was wearing the Ring or fading into the shadow realm
    due to the shard of the Morgul blade.  Glorfindel, being a Prince
    of the Noldor, probably had magical powers.  I'm sure these were
    greatly enhanced by his exposure to the Trees, but I think that
    magic is natural to the elves.
    
    I wonder how Glorfindel is related to the Noldorin Royal Line? 
    His hair marks him as a member of the House of Finarfin of which
    Galadriel is a part (the head?).  I'll have to check back on my
    Noldorin geneologies.  I remember that Gil-Galad (Ereinion in his
    youth) was the son of Fingon.  I've forgotten who Fingon's father
    was.  How quickly we forget.
    
    Wook

    Finwe was the first King of the Noldor, and had three sons.
    
    The first was Feanor, who himself had seven sons.  Feanor, the "Firey
    Spirit", became King at his father's death and led the Noldor on their
    mad quest to recover the Silmarils from Middle Earth.  He was perhaps
    the greatest artisan known.  Due to the terrible Oath that he and his
    sons swore, woe and terror followed the Noldor to the end of the Age.
    One of Feanor's grandchildren was Celebrimbor, who along with Sauron,
    made the Rings of Power. 
    
    The second son, from a different wife, was Fingolfin.  He was among the
    greatest of warriors and became King of the Noldor upon Feanor's death
    (due to a reckless pursuit of the enemy).  He led his people for a long
    time and was a wise general in the siege against Morgoth. This siege
    was finally broken and Fingolfin died while in single combat with the
    fallen Vala.  His sons were Fingon and Turgon, who were Kings after him
    and who were eventually overcome.  Fingon's son was Ereinion Gil-Galad,
    the last High King of the Elves, who died battling Sauron in the War of
    the Last Alliance.  Turgon's daughter was Idril, whose half human son
    was Earendil the Mariner, whose twin sons were Elrond and Elros.
    >>WHEW!<<  Fingon and Turgon had a sister, Aredhel, but she was
    unimportant except in that her son was responsible for the fall of
    Turgon's Gondolin, the last of the Noldor Realms. 

    The third son of Finwe (remember him?) was Finarfin, a full brother
    of Fingolfin.  He was the kindest and gentlest, and did not continue
    with the Flight of the Noldor after the Doom of Mandos was laid
    upon them.  He became King of the Noldor in Valinor.  His five
    children, however, where friendly with the children of Feanor and
    Fingolfin and some desired their own realms to rule, so they followed
    Feanor into exile.  Like their father, they had the golden hair
    of the Vanyar through Finwe's second wife Indis.  The eldest child
    was Finrod, who founded the realm of Nargothrond.  The youngest, and
    the only one of the leaders of the Flight of the Noldor to survive
    into the Second Age, was Galadriel.
   
    Glorfindel was not in the geneologies at all, but it is possible
    that he was a descendent of Finarfin.  I doubt it, however, because
    it was mentioned that he had seen the Trees, and so was involved
    in the Flight of the Noldor.  I think he should have been mentioned
    even if he were a grandson.  
    
    His golden hair definately came from the race of Vanyar Elves,
    because the Noldor were characteristically dark-haired.  In addition
    to Finwe's second wife, we know that Turgon had a Vanyar wife, Elenwe,
    the mother of golden-haired Idril.  Perhaps there were other matings
    between Vanyar and Noldor that could have produced Glorfindel.
    Perhaps they were common.
    
    So, who should have been High King of the Noldor (and hence Elves)
    after Gil-Galad?  Well, Elrond was descended from Gil-Galad's uncle,
    but then his High Elf blood was pretty weak (about 1/4 of his ancestry
    and most of that was Vanyar blood).  He even had a large chunk of HUMAN
    in him (yuk!).  Galadriel was more distantly related, but at least her
    blood was pure.  
    
    Then Elrond had three children by Galadriel's daughter Celebrian, so
    that broght the lines together to settle it.  After the passing of the
    Ringbearers, Elladan, Elrond's elder son, should have been High King of
    the Elves. 
    
    Too bad there weren't any Elves left.
    
    				==ELB== 

re:  .160

> This would explain why mortals have a tendency to fade or become transparent 
> as they begin to shift permanently into the shadow realm.

I have been under the impression that the use of the ring did not actually cause
the fading.  It provided temporary invisibilty and that was it.  I seem to 
recall Gandalf at one point mentioning that constant wearing of the ring would
have that affect, but:

On Weathertop, Frodo is pierced by the Morgul blade.  It seems that in that 
section of the tale, it would make Frodo a wraith (if it had reached his heart).
My contention is that such a wound would have to be inflicted on anyone in order
to actually become a wraith.  While I cannot point out any supporting passages
(most likely because there are not any :-)), I feel that each of the Nazgul was
at some point similarly wounded.  The fact that such a weapon exists indicates
that it had some prior use.  It could not have been newly created for the Frodo
occasion since Aragorn, Glorfindel, and Elrond all had prior knowledge of it.

Another thing supporting this idea is the fact that Gollum had the One for many
a year (is there any indication as to exactly how old he was?).  It is true he
did not always use it, but he certainly did not seem to be 'fading' over that
time, and definitely did not appear 'wraith-like'.  Any comments?

-Joe

    About Gandalf vis a vis Olorin:  Tolkien certainly describes Gandalf
    (and the other wizards) as given many of the limitations of men
    and elves, but I think it goes a little too far to say that he was
    no longer a Maia.  As was remarked, Gandalf as "the White" is probably
    much closer to his old identity than he was as "the Grey," yet White
    and Grey are both recognizably Gandalf.  Merry and Pippin remark
    that the resurrected Gandalf is rather like the old Gandalf amplified,
    both merrier and more alarming.
    
    Compare Gandalf to Melian.  She was incarnate enough to bear a daughter
    to Thingol, yet there was no hint that she was no longer a Maia.
    Instead, she is commonly referred to as "Melian the Maia."
    
    About Ring mechanics: There is one tremendous complicating factor,
    i.e. the will of Sauron.  Gandalf says a couple of times that the
    Ring is growing and getting up to tricks because Sauron is more
    actively seeking it.  The powers of any given Ring probably depend
    not only on the powers and intentions of the weilder and maker(s)
    of the Ring, but also on Sauron's efforts.  Even the Three, though
    made without Sauron's immediate interference, were made according
    to Sauron's directions, and the One was deliberately made "to rule
    them all," to seize control of them.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Re: .168
    >                                                    ...  In addition
    >to Finwe's second wife, we know that Turgon had a Vanyar wife, Elenwe,
    >the mother of golden-haired Idril....
    
    I have a rather firm recollection that Turgon's wife, Elenwen was
    Telerin, the daughter of Olw� who was the brother of Elw� (better known
    as Thingol, King of Doriath).  Wasn't it this relationship that
    prompted Galadriel to oppose F�anor when he took the Telerin ships in
    the Battle of Alqualond�?  I'll double-check this tonight. 
    
Re .169 - Morgul blades versus Ring of Power
    
    I agree that the Morgul blade was specifically designed to shift
    its victim into the shadow realm, but that doesn't mean that the
    rings did not produce the same effect temporarily during use which
    over time, might become permanent.  I favor this idea simply because
    it provides a single mechanism (ie. shifting into the shadow realm)
    for invisibility and wraith-hood.  The rings produced a quick but
    temporary shift with long-term accumulation while the blades took
    longer to accomplish the shift, but doing so permanently.
    
    True, there isn't any direct evidence for this position, but I prefer
    applying Occam's Razor to this case.  As for Gollum, I doubt that
    he wore it much during his long years under the Misty Mountains.
    He didn't really need it most of the time.  The unlit tunnels and
    caves made it relatively useless.  And besides, Hobbits are notorious
    for being resistant to such effects, n'est-ce pas? :^)
    
    Wook

    Re: .171 - SET FACE/COLOR=RED
    
    Well, folks, I blew another one.  It was Finarfin's wife, Earwen
    who was Olwe's daughter, so of course, Galadriel would have defended
    her mother's kin!  Idril Celebrindal is described in _The Silmarillion_
    as being "... golden as the Vanyar, her mother's kindred..."
    
    Interesting note:  A Glorfindel is mentioned in _The Silmarillion_
    who was presumably a Noldorin Elf of some inportance and died in
    combat with a Balrog during the sack of Gondolin.  The name means
    "Golden-haired".
    
    Another interesting note:  It is said of Finarfin that "Alone among the
    Noldorin Princes he and his descendents had golden hair..."  Now
    if the Glorfindel of _TLOTR_ is in fact named for his hair, and
    if he is a Noldorin prince, then maybe he was supposed to be a
    descendent of Finarfin.  Perhaps Tolkien was planning to integrate
    him into the Noldorin geneology, but never got around to it.
    
    Wook

    Re .171
    
    Gollum may not have faded by virtue of being a hobbit, but it may
    also be true that the Ring's cumulative effect was less through
    most of that time because Sauron was not actively calling for it.
    I don't recall exactly where, but somewhere in the first book Gandalf
    talks about the Ring getting more active and obstreperous the more
    Sauron tries to call it home.  It certainly got worse the closer
    it got to Sauron.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    
    
      As some people seem interested, here's a history of the three
    elven rings:
    
      Sometime around the year 700 of the Second Age some of the remaining
    elves of Belriand, under the leadership of Galadriel and Celeborn,
    found the town of Ost-in-Edhil ('The Fortress of the High-Elves')
    on the shores of the River Glanduin in Eregion.  Among the
    newly-settled elves was Celebrimbor, the grandson of Feanor.  He
    had inherited from his grandfather his forging skills and his love
    for manufactured objects.  He founded a few years after the founding
    of Ost-in-Edhil, the Gwaith-i-Mirdain ('The Brotherhood of the
    Jewelsmiths'), which included the elite of the elven smiths.
      Everything was going well and the elves were growing in knowledge
    and skill, when came to Ost-in-Edhil, around year 1200 of the Second
    Age, a guy who looked like a Vanya from Aman and who said he was
    Annatar ('The Lord of Gifts'), one of the Maiar of Aule.  Celebrimbor
    immediately befriended himself with Annatar and learnt a lot frm
    him, and in return taught him a lot.  And sometime around 1400 of
    the Second Age, Annatar comes up with that project of his to make
    all sorts of magic rings with all sorts of magical powers and
    Celebrimbor accepted to help him.  Together they forged all sorts
    of magic rings with all sorts of magical powers.  And one day, around
    1490 of the Second Age, Annatar went off on a trip to somewhere
    and Celebrimbor, impatient, forged the three elven rings alone.
    He put one on and felt the presence of Annatar who was wearing the
    One Ring he had forged in Mordor.  Celebrimbor then understood the
    purposes of Annatar/Sauron (for Sauron he was) and hid the rings.
    He sent Vilya (The Ring of Air) and Narya (The Ring of Fire) to
    Gil-galad and Nenya (The Ring of Water) to Galadriel, with whom he
    was secretely in love and who had since removed to Lorien.  Sauron
    sent his minions all over Eriador and laid the elven kingdom of
    Eregion waste, killing Celebrimbor of his own hands.
     The story goes on, with all the wars against Sauron, until the
    year 3440 of the Second Age or thereabouts, when Gil-galad gave
    Vilya to Elrond, his lieutenant, and Narya to Cirdan, and gets killed.
     Then, around the year 1000 of the Third Age, Cirdan gave Narya
    to Gandalf as he arrived in Mithlond from the Undying Lands, saying
    that he might need it more often than himself.
     And so it is till the LotR...
    
    						Namarie!
    

    
    
      I am a fan of Tolkien's languages and wish to exchange ideas about
    the grammar and the idioms of any of the languages.
    
      Something for Eldarendil :
       I've thought about the beorian word Nom, meaning wisdom, and
    have arrived to the idea that it might be related to the Quenya
    Nole, knowledge.  Remember the men of Beor, Marach and company learnt
    their language from the Avari, whose language is related to Quenya.
       You also mentioned names being translated into elvish.  Mine
    is Timothy, which means he who honours the gods, or God.  My
    suggestions are: Valandil, Valandur, Erundil, Erundur, Ilvatarendil,
    Iluvatarendur, or others of the same style.
    
    						Valandil Lambiendur
    

    Re: Valandil Lambiendur
    
    I presume that "Timothy" comes from the greek words _tim�_ and _theos_
    meaning "honor" and "god" respectively.  I've also seen _tim�_
    translated as "glory" which (I think) is more often translated as
    _cleos_.  Given this, I suppose one could make use of "alcar"
    (glorious?) as part of a name, though nothing comes to mind
    immediately.
    
    "Lambiendur" is interesting.  I believe it means devoted to language
    (lit. devoted to tongues).  Lambe is the name of a letter in the
    Tengwar and means tongue.  In fact, I found an answer to a previous
    reply of mine asking if anyone knew the translation for part of
    an incantation Gandalf used in attempting to open the West Gate
    of Moria.  The phrase was "lasto beth lammen" which means "listen
    to the words of my tongue".
    
    lasto: to listen (imperative voice)
    beth: words (cf. quet-, a Quenya root for word)
    lammen: tongue (genitive?)
    
    This is a sample of Sindarin grammar.  The "-o" ending signifies
    the imperative.  The "-en" ending appears to represent the genitive
    declension.  Other examples show other endings.  The "-ith" ending
    in Minas Tirith is either the gerundial or the infinitive ending
    as seen in the translation "Tower of Guard (Guarding or Watching)"
    
    There are grammatical notes scattered through the various books,
    particularly _The Silmarillion_ and later books.  I've kept an eye
    out for them as I re-read the books.  I'm trying to gather what
    I can.  The richness is quite awesome, but not surprizing from a
    philologist like Tolkien.
    
    Re: translating noter's names
    
    For example Earl's name might be translated as "Hiredain" for "Lord
    of Men" ("Heruatan" in Quenya).  "Peter" might be "Belegon" or "Mighty
    Stone".  Some sound better than others.
    
    Wook

    This note is GREAT!  I haven't read this much about tLOTR since
    I took it as a college course at Florida State University (And to
    think, I got graded for reading/studying tLOTR while others were
    writing in their blue books!)  Hats off to all hobbit friends....
    
    Regards,		Keith R>

    Well, I've begun yet another rereading of _The Hobbit_ and the trilogy.
    I think it will be my most careful reading to date, largely because
    of the impact that the discussion in this note has had on my
    thinking.  I'm finding that there are parts early on in the first
    book of the trilogy that just passed by me during my previous readings.
    
    Example:  After Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin leave Tom Bombadil's
    house they head out toward the East Road.  On the way they rest
    by a standing stone in a small hollow.  This standing stone seems
    to be enchanted, because a) it is cool in spite of standing on full
    sunlight, and b) is seems to cause them to fall asleep.  This incident
    sets up all of the trouble with the Barrow-wight.
    
    The reason I even mention this is because is sheds some light on
    a comment back in reply 154 that suggested that Carn Dum was a dwarf
    stronghold.  It appears from the Barrow-wight incident, that Carn
    Dum was one of the chief cities of Angmar.  Now, I know that this
    doesn't preclude the possibility that Carn Dum was once a dwarf
    city, but it does push the timeframe back to before the establishment
    of Angmar and the rise of the Witch-King.
    
    Another thing that I've noticed so far, is that Gildor, the leader
    of the Wandering Company that met Frodo and Company in Woody End,
    was of the house of Finrod.  Wouldn't that make him a pretty important
    elf?  Are the wandering companies made up of mostly Noldor, or are
    they mostly Sindarin with Noldor leaders?
    
    I like to say that I've greatly appreciated the discussion in this
    note, both the serious and the humorous.  I join Keith and others
    in giving kudos to my fellow Tolkien-friends.  I'm sure I'll have
    plenty to say as I go through this reading.  I hope you're all ready
    for it. ;^)
    
    Elrandir
    
    P.S.  I hope more people get interested in the linguistic aspects
    of the books.  I also hope to discuss the material from the more
    recent books.  May someone should put together a list of Tolkien
    books, including references.  (I may even try to do it myself.)

    re .-1:
    
    	A couple of years ago when my wife was pregnant and had to spend
    a lot of time in bed, I entertained her by reading the entire trilogy
    out loud to her.  This is an amazingly good way to pick up details
    and nuances that you might have missed even on numerous previous
    readings since you go a lot slower and can't tend to skip ahead
    over anything.  It also forces you to get the pronounciations right
    (or at least consistent).  I picked up a lot of details and also
    found new appreciation for the use of language and JRR's ability
    to describe settings and terrain.

    A friend and I were talking and he asked me some questions about
    Aragorn that I couldn't answer.  I did however promise to post these
    questions in this notes file in the hopes that someone else may
    be able to answer them.
    
    1)  My friend seems to recal that Aragorn was 79 when he became
    king.  Is this correct?
    
    2)  If so, why was Aragorn so old?  (ie. why did'nt he SEEM 79?)
    
    3)  How old was Aragorn when he died and how did he die?
    
    
    --  Barry

Re .180
    
    Since I don't keep a copy of LotR by my terminal, I can't give full
    answers now, but I can give partials.  Aragorn is of essentially
    pure Numenorean blood, and of the royal house besides.  The
    Numenoreans, particularly the royal house, were slightly superhuman,
    due to long association with the elves and the close proximity of
    Numenor to the Undying Lands.  Furthermore, the royal house has elvish
    blood in it.  This is the source of Aragorn's longevity and unusual 
    mental and physical powers.
    
    Aragorn died voluntarily.  Like many of the old kings of Numenor,
    he could sense his final decline coming at long last and simply
    decided to stop living before it arrived.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    If my memory serves me (HA! why should it start now?) Aragorn was
    88 during the War of the Ring and ruled for 120 years, dying
    voluntarily (as described in -.1) at the ripe old age of 208.  At
    his death, the only surviving members of the Fellowship in Middle
    Earth were Legolas and (an old) Gimli.  They sailed to the Blessed
    Lands.

    Re: .180
    
    Elros Tar-Minyatur (first king of Numenor and Elrond's full brother
    to boot) lived to be over 400 years old!  In fact he reigned so
    long that when he finally died, his son (whose name escapes me,
    Valandil?) immediately abdicated in favor of his son (whose name
    also escapes me.)  I believe Elros also chose the time of his death.
    
    If I recall _The Akallabeth_ (the story of the fall of Numenor)
    correctly, there was one king who was so afraid of death that he
    started the practice of lingering to the bitter end.  I'm sure it was
    before the kings started taking their titles in Adunaic.  It might have
    been the one that took Sauron to Numenor as a prisoner.  I seem to
    remember that Sauron started to spread lies about death (The Gift of
    Iluvatar) corrupting the true meaning of death.
    
    At any rate, I believe Aragorn (or King Elessar if you prefer) was
    the first king to chose the time of his death in quite a while,
    maybe even the first since the fall of Numenor.
    
    Re: .181
    
    I thought the longevity of the Numenoreans and of the Royal house
    in particular was a gift given explicitly by either the Valar or
    Iluvatar himself, irrespective of Numenor's proximity to Valimar.
    Is there any evidence that any of the Edain had longer life-spans
    before the end of the First Age?
    
    Wook
    
    

    Wook, 
    
    I also don't have my books handy, (I'm typing with the lights out
    at home) but I think I remember that the ancestor of Aragorn's line
    was the brother of Elrond. They were allowed to chose which kind
    they would belong to and - as I am sure you know - one chose elven
    kind and the other what we would call human. I *think* that the
    brother who chose to be human was granted the gift of long life
    at that time. (I'll check on the details tomorrow)
    
    Bonnie 
    
    also - as to reading TLOTR aloud. We are on our fifth or sixth
    reading aloud, to our youngest child. The child we read it to
    first is off to college in less than a week.

    The brother of Elrond was Elros, who chose to be mortal and became
    the first king of Numenor as "Taur Minyatur". While mortal, Elros
    and his descendants were granted a longer life span than other men.
    

    Since Elros and Elrond were brothers, that makes Aragorn Elrond's
    great...great grandnephew in addition to being his son-in-law (which
    also means Aragorn's wife, Arwen, is his first cousin many, MANY times
    removed! :^)
    
    If my memory of Quenya roots serves me correctly, the title "Minyatur"
    means "Lofty-Master".  This reminds me of the custom in the ancient
    Korean dynasties of giving the first king of the title "Taejo" meaning
    "Great-father".  (In Korea, the titles were conferred posthumously
    whereas in Numenor, they were taken upon ascending the throne.)  Also
    of note is that "Thingol" is also a title (or surname depending on how
    you look at it) meaning "grey-cloak".  In Sindarin, his full name was
    Elu Thingol, the Quenya form being Elw� Singcollo(sp?).  Most of the
    kings and queens mentioned in the LOTR and _The Silmarillion_ have
    translations.  The main exceptions seem to be the kings of Rohan and
    the dwarvish kings.  Does anyone know whether any have been translated?
    
    Wook

    Wow.  It took me a while to find this entry, and even longer to
    read through it.  I've enjoyed it very much.
    
    I've never really given a lot of thought to the reasons why so many
    people put Tolkien's works at the top of their reading list.  I
    know that in my case it's simply because I identify with hobbits
    so much.  I like to eat six meals a day (when I can get them), and
    I'm very fond of pipeweed.  But I especially identify with Bilbo.
    We are both adventuresome people, although I have never personally
    spoken with a dragon, or gone spelunking with a bunch of dwarves.
    We both have the same initials.  And we both like to write verses
    and sing songs about the things we enjoy in life.  What follows
    is an adaptation of one of Bilbo's poems that I made up for my own
    enjoyment.  I hope you all enjoy it as much as I have enjoyed reading
    your responses here.  With due apologies to Mr. Baggins and Mr.
    Tolkien...
    
    		I sit beside a fire and think
    		of all that I have seen
    		of worlds beyond our universe
    		where in my mind I've been
    
    		I've travelled to the planet Dune
    		the world of worms and sand
    		and seen the alien wonders of
    		the Many Colored Land
    
    		Past Trantor to Foundations Edge
    		and on to Majipoor
    		then back in time I take my mind
    		to worlds that are no more
    
    		I've felt the winds of Darkover
    		Land of the Bloody Sun
    		and on to Pern the dragons home
    		my mind continues on
    
    		But all the while I sit and think
    		of places I love best
    		like Lorien and Rivendell
    		where heart and mind can rest
    
    		I sit beside the fire and think
    		of what I most desire
    		to put my feet upon the path
    		that leads me to the Shire
    
    		For there among the hobbit folk
    		I'll rest upon the green
    		and over pipeweed spin a yarn
    		of all that I have seen
    
    Well, there it is.  Enjoy...
    				... B.B.
    

    RE:  B.B.
    
    Very nice.
    
    
    RE: Wook 
    
    You are correct in your translation of Elros' royal name of
    Tar-Minyatur, but I think the sense is different.  "Tar", of course,
    means "royal, noble, high, king".  "Tur" means "master".  "Minya" (and
    I think "Minas" is from the same root) is taken to mean "high, great,
    prime, most significant", (or in the case of "minas", "tower"). 
    Now I think that in Elros' case, "Minyatur" meant "First-master",
    since he was the first King of Numenor.
    
    The names of the Rohirrim are from the Old English, and translate
    readily.  "Eorl" is the word that became "Earl", as in noble. "Folcred"
    means "Advice of the people", Eomer is (??) "Horse-mare", "Holdwine"
    (Merry's nickname) means "Fast-friend", or "True-friend".  
    
    				=ELB=

Path: muscat!decwrl!labrea!rutgers!seismo!mcvax!ukc!reading!onion!riddle!domo
From: [email protected] (Dominic Dunlop)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers
Subject: BBC Tape of THE LORD OF THE RINGS. 
Summary: Rave review (even without Tom Bombadil)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 3 Sep 87 15:23:45 GMT
Reply-To: [email protected] (Dominic Dunlop)
Distribution: rec.arts.sf-lovers
Organization: Sphinx Ltd., Maidenhead, England
Lines: 89
 
    In 1980, BBC radio produced a dramatization of THE LORD OF THE
RINGS running to thirteen hour-long episodes.  It was repeated early
this year.  BBC Enterprises subsequently brought it out as a thirteen
cassette boxed set.  UK residents (whose terminals might actually
display pound signs!) can obtain this by sending a check for #31.50
to: 
 
	BBC Cassettes
	Dept CB
	Cirencester
	Gloucs   GL7 1RI
 
    Having ordered on two occasions, I can say shipment, which is by
recorded parcel post, may take a while:  I guess they produce the
things in batches. 
 
    I inquired about availability in the USA (that being where most of
the contributors to this newsgroup reside), and got this reply: 
 
	The product is not available in the USA, however, we hope to find a
	distributor shortly.  In the meantime, overseas orders are being
	dealt with by Harrods, Knightsbridge, London SW1 7XL, marked for
	the Records Department.
 
	Interested parties should inquire the price of package and posting
	before sending any money.  Credit cards are accepted.
 
    (That was from Annabel Cotterell, Marketing Co-ordinator at BBC
Enterprises, Woodlands, 80 Wood Lane, London W12 0TT -- phone +44 1
743 5588, to whom I suppose prospective overseas distributors might
apply.) 
 
    I called Harrods (their number is +44 1 730 1234) and spoke to the
record department.  They have the set in stock now.  The price for
walk-in customers is #29.95.  For export to US customers, Value Added
Tax at 15% would be deducted, giving a tax-free price of #26.04.
Shipment to the USA would be #10.50, and insurance a little under
#1.00, giving a total of around #37.50.  Probably the most pain-free
way of getting hold of the thing is to call or write to Harrods,
quoting a "major credit card" number and expire date, letting them
work out the exact price to charge you.  It'll look like very close to
$60 on your card statement. 
 
			But is it any good?
		      *(Mild SPOILERS ahead)*
 
			 Emphatically YES!  
 
    The production follows the books extremely closely, even to the
extent of taking most speech and much narrative verbatim.  There has
been some deft editing and tightening up, both to make conversation
work better, and to help compress the work, but it doesn't show unless
you're looking for it.  What does occasionally show is the radio drama
device of referring in conversation to things which, in real life,
would be totally obvious to anybody present.  There's also the
occasional seemingly incidental recap on what has gone before,
presumably because listeners are not expected to be able to flip back
in the book to find out.  Trivia buffs may also note that many
negative references to "black men" and similar have inexplicably been
rewritten! 
 
    There is divergence from the books in two important respects. 
Firstly, some interesting, but ultimately inconsequential sequences,
are omitted or elided.  Mirkwood and Tom Bombadil are sadly gone, as
are the Trollshaws and the Entwives, to name but two.  The Scouring of
the Shire is also somewhat rushed.  Secondly, the narrative in the
later parts of the work switches much more frequently between the
various combatants.  This last is an improvement which snipers at
Tolkien have often suggested. 
 
    Acting and characterization is, for the most part, also good (why
did they do that to Nob, though?), and sound effects are used
sparingly and to good effect.  Specially-composed music is also
available on a BBC record.  I, and others I have talked to, find some
of the song settings a bit too much to take (what eagle would sing
like that?), but this seems to be a general problem for all who would
put tunes to those words. 
 
    Technically, the Dolby B recording onto chrome cassettes is
excellent, and the breaks between sides A and B have been carefully
chosen to be as natural as possible -- even where this means wasting a
lot of tape at the end of the second side.  Purchasers should probably
note that the copyright notice specifies domestic use only: it can't
be broadcast.  I suppose, although I have not checked, that
broadcasters should apply to the BBC Transcription Service, Bush
House, London. 
 
    All in all, I'd say "Buy it!" - and I'm not even on commission.
 
    In closing, I remember a good early 1970s BBC radio production of
THE HOBBIT.  Will we ever hear that again, I wonder? 
 
Dominic Dunlop
[email protected]   [email protected]

    I have a 13 volume cassette set of The Lord of the Rings and a 6
    volume set of The Hobbit. Both were bought from B. Dalton or
    Waldenbooks around Christmas last year. They're produced by some
    outfit called The Mind's Eye, if memory serves me correctly.

Path: muscat!decwrl!labrea!rutgers!seismo!mcvax!ukc!reading!onion!riddle!domo
From: [email protected] (Dominic Dunlop)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers
Subject: Re: BBC Tape of _Lord of the Rings_ (longish)
Summary: Cast list
Keywords: THE LORD OF THE RINGS, BBC.
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 5 Sep 87 16:16:42 GMT
References: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected] (Dominic Dunlop)
Distribution: rec.arts.sf-lovers
Organization: Sphinx Ltd., Maidenhead, England
Lines: 42
 
    Before anybody asks, the cast list for the BBC Radio production of
THE LORD OF THE RINGS is: 
 
Frodo			Ian Holm
Gandalf			Michael Horden
Aragorn			Robert Stephens
Gollum			Peter Woodthorpe
Bilbo			John Le Mesurier
Sam			William Nighy
Merry			Richard O'Callahan
Pippin			John McAndrew
Legolas			David Collings
Gimli			Doulas Livingstone
Boromir			Michael Graham Cox
Denethor		Peter Vaughan
Faramir			Andrew Seear
Theoden			Jack May
Eomer			Anthony Hyde
Eowyn			Elin Jenkins
Saruman			Peter Howell
Grima Wormtongue	Paul Brooke
Elrond			Hugh Dickson
Galadriel		Marian Diamond
Celeborn		Simon Cadell
Treebeard		Stephen Thorne
Butterbur		James Grout
Farmer Maggot		John Bott
Lord of the Nazgul	Philip Voss
Mouth of Sauron		John Rye
 
The narrator		Gerald Murphy
 
    The boxed cassette set itself appears to have no number, although
the individual cassettes themselves are numbered Rings01 through
Rings13. 
 
    By the way, I got the original production date wrong:  It was
1981, not 1980. 
 
Dominic Dunlop
[email protected]  [email protected]

Path: muscat!decwrl!labrea!rutgers!seismo!mcvax!ukc!reading!onion!riddle!domo
From: [email protected] (Dominic Dunlop)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers
Subject: Re: BBC Tape of THE LORD OF THE RINGS. 
Summary: Becoming easier to get hold of, but will cost more
Keywords: Lord of the Rings, BBC
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 8 Sep 87 13:42:54 GMT
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected] (Dominic Dunlop)
Distribution: rec.arts.sf-lovers
Organization: Sphinx Ltd., Maidenhead, England
Lines: 29
 
    Further information from BBC Enterprises about the 13-cassette
edition of THE LORD OF THE RINGS: 
 
 1. For further general information, call +44 1 576 0600.  This works
    better than the number given in my first posting.
 
 2. The product "will be available shortly in the USA."  A distributor
    has been appointed, but cannot, as yet, be named.
 
 3. Among distributors whose names can be told are Polygram in Autralia/New
    Zealand, and Grammafon Elektra (?) in Sweden/Denmark.
 
 4. A "trade edition" will be launched in the UK on 12th October.  It
    will be available through any retail outlet served by EMI.  The
    recommended retail price, including Value Added Tax, will be #39-95p.
    (Please don't mail me any flames about EMI -- I'm just reporting this
    stuff.)
 
 5. Harrods walk-in price of #29.95 including tax remains good while their
    current stocks last, as do corresponding export prices.  New stock will
    be at the higher price.
 
 6. The UK-only mail-order price of #31.50 direct from the BBC also remains
    good for the present.
 
 7. The catalogue number of the product is RINGS 1.
 
Dominic Dunlop
[email protected]  [email protected]

    	First of all, I wanted to say that this notes file is really
    great.  It's funny to read all your replies  (I was cracking up
    over the ones where you talk about weird childhood deals with the
    runes and stuff).
    
    	Frankly, when I was in middle school, I started using the computer
    systems at my school, consisting of about forty terminals connected
    to an old Pr1me 300.  It so happens that at my school we were able
    to pick account names to be whatever we wanted, and usually we tried
    to have a personality on the computer to go along with it -- mine
    was SAURON.
    
    	I bet you could guess my sub-directories : Nazgul, Mordor, etc.
    When I logged in I wrote an executable in FORTRAN to print out the
    poem about the "one ring", and my prompt was (and still is) m'Lord!!
     
    	I also became a system manager along with a group of 10 other
    students, and it was funny because all the other students used to
    think of us as computer tyrants, cause we had a full rein of the 
    system (needless to say some of us hacks did more than just use the 
    old pr1me, since the R&D Center for GE was ripe with VAX's and other
    systems...of course I'm not saying I had anything to do with it).  
    But SAURON and tyrant used to sound good together, and I always
    got that little energetic kick from it!!
    
    	Actually, I am so used to using that account name, that I still
    have sub-dirs named Mordor and Nazgul, and by tradition Mordor is
    my work directory while Nazgul is the directory holding all the
    finished products - a little weird huh?? But then again, I'm still
    a young college student who can still hold onto a bit of idealism
    a little longer.
    
    	I noticed that some of you mention reading the works like LOTR
    and The Hobbit XXX times??  Are you crazy.  I mean, I thought I
    was bad, reading the books every year since third grade, but I just
    cannot conceive myself reading them maybe more than perhaps 50 times,
    and I'm talking about therefore reading them to a pretty ooolllldddd
    age! (unless all you guys are really old...maybe??  Ha Ha, just joking)
         
    	Oh well, enough for one day...love this notes file though!
    
    --Sunil                                       
    
    	

    Re: 193
    
    Welcome, Sunil.  I would greet you with Frodo's greeting to Gildor
    at Woody End, but I'm on a VT100, and the diacritical marks are
    hard to manage.
    
    Re: .- a while ago
    
    As some of you know, I've been in the process of rereading the LOTR
    again, and now that I'm done with the trilogy proper and have started
    on the appendices, I thought I might share a little bit of what
    I've found.
    
    First of all, all the questions that have been raised in this topic
    have greatly enriched my reading.  Secondly, the leisurely pace
    that I took allowed me to think about things that I had previously
    skimmed over.
    
    For example:  A while ago, we had a discussion of the Two Trees
    and their possible descendents in Middle Earth.  In _The Return
    of the King_ when Gandalf takes Aragorn to the slopes of Mindolluin
    to find the sapling of Nimloth, Gandalf clearly describes the lineage
    of the sapling as being a direct descendent of Telperion.  It also
    describes in a footnote the fact that no image of Laurelin exists,
    which kills my theory that the mellyrn (thats mallorns for non-sindarin
    types :-) were an image of Laurelin.
    
    It's things like this that make rereading so satisfying for me.
    
    Frodo Lives!
    
    Wook (aka. Elrandir Eldarendil)

    I've got a question that is perhaps trivial, but I've never completely
    figured out.  
    
    I'm in the process of rereading the Hobbit, Sillmarilion, and LOTR,
    and am a bit confused about the separate references to goblins and
    orcs.  Are they the same???
    
    I mean, I noticed that often times Tolkien almost seems to use the
    two interchangeably, but I never quite figured out whether they
    are truly the same, or are vastly different races.
    
    Maybe orcs represent the larger goblins or something??
    
    Anyone have a clue?
    
    --Sunil

    re .195:
    
    	I will probably get flamed for some inaccuracy here, but I would
    say that yes, they are basically the same.  I think that you will
    find that the term "goblin" is used mostly in _The Hobbit_, which
    was the earliest published of the three.  The other two use "orc"
    fairly consistently.  The reason may be that _The Hobbit_ was written
    to appeal to a younger readership than the later works, and the
    term "goblin" is one that is in general use in English folklore.
    
    	As an aside on this, I once saw a comment that classified the
    three works as different types of imaginative literature, and I
    think that this is fairly accurate:
    
    	The Hobbit is a fairy tale,
    	Lord of the Rings is legend,
    	The Silmarillion is myth.

    I agree with Doug that orcs and goblins are essentially the same
    and that the term goblin first appeared in the Hobbit while the
    term orc is more commonly used in TLOTR. However, I do recall
    somewhere in TLOTR where goblins were referred to as small orcs.

    In LotR, there were big orcs and little orcs.  (Actually, there
    were dozens of breeds of orcs, but those seemed the major divisions
    to me.)  The big orcs were the Uruk-hai, appeared only in the hosts
    of Saruman, and were rumored to be half-orc half-human hybrids created
    by Saruman.  At least, that's what Treebeard speculated, and the
    fact that they could withstand sunlight lent it credence.
    
    "Uruk" and "orc" are both derived from the Elven word "yrch," which
    was probably what the elves said the first time they saw an orc.
    I suppose Tolien used "goblin" as an English translation for "orc"
    rather than burden juvenile readers with a foreign term.
    
    That "goblin" translates "orc" is indicated by the name of the sword
    Thorin Oakenshield took from the hoard of the trolls -- its proper
    name was "Orcrist," which I believe Gandalf translated as "goblin
    cleaver."  The orcs just called it "Biter."
    
    For another example of language peculiarities in "The Hobbit," note
    that, while discussing Bilbo's pedigree, Tolkien remarks that some
    said one of the Tooks had taken a "fairy wife."  He adds that "this
    was ridiculous, of course."  It is THE only occurence of the term
    "fairy" in the whole Middle-Earth cycle, although Tolkien elsewhere
    uses the term "Faerie" for the land of Aman.
    
    And what is the "fairy" a Took is rumored to have married?  The
    author of "The Languages of Middle Earth" (whose name I forget)
    theorizes that it means "elf" and translates a name for elves used
    only by those hobbits who did not believe in the existence of elves.
    I doubt the last part, since even the most skeptical hobbits in
    LotR seem to at least believe in elves, but "fairy" was probably
    meant to indicate "elf."
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Hmm...that's interesting.
    
    But a point in case against the use of goblin in just the Hobbit
    stems from the fact that I remember several references to such events
    as the goblin wars, and so forth in the Silmarillion (sp??) and
    in LOTR.  Someone suggested that the differences in size accounts
    for the different names, and perhaps that is the best explanation.
    
    As for the disparaties between orcs themselves, we must remember
    that the Uruk-Hai never existed until Saruman the Scum decided to
    try his hand at genetics!!  The Uruk-Hai did not exist before then,
    and so I believe that big goblins could still be thought of as orcs.
    
    Also I just found a part in the Hobbit where the following is written:
    
    "'A bit low for goblins, at least for the big ones,' thought Bilbo,
    not knowing that even the big ones, the orcs of the mountains...",
    on page 93 of The Hobbit...
    
    comments anyone???
    
    --Sunil

re: .the_last_few

I think somewhere else in _The Hobbit_ Gandalf refers to the
Grey Mountains as being "full of goblins, hobgoblins and orcs".
Somehow I doubt that the terms were meant to denote different
races or subpopulations in a genetic sense though.  Probably
more like "lies, damned lies and statistics" (:-)).

Goblins were probably linked in Tolkien's mind with some of
the works of his spiritual forebear, George MacDonald, such
as _The Princess and the Goblin_.

Was "orc" a wholly invented term or was it borrowed (that is,
disregarding its supposed derivation from the Elvish "yrch")?
It seems to have made it into the crossword puzzles nowadays...

						paul c.

Re .200
    
    I think there are a few obscure uses of the word "orc" before the
    publication of LotR.  For instance, I think that somewhere in
    "Beowulf," the author rattles off a list of monsters, one of which
    is "orcs."  Also, there was a little-known Roman god of the underworld
    named "Orcus."  Either that, or "Orcus" was one name for Pluto.
    I would guess that Tolkien got the word from "Beowulf."  He had
    certainly read the work often enough.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    While we're looking at etymology, there's always _Orcinus orca_,
    otherwise known as the "killer whale".

    Hmmm...interesting - but somehow I don't know if killer whale and
    orc as in ugly smelly deformed elfs, have any connection...I don't
    know though
    
    
    --Sunil

    WRT: Tolkien and crossword puzzles -- while I've never seen "orc"
    in a puzzle, I have seen "ent" from time to time.
                             
    					andrew

    I agree that the usage of "goblin" v. "orc" is loose at best.  I think
    "orc" should be considered the generic term and "goblin" being somewhat
    like the term "Kleenex", a specific term applied informally in the
    generic sense.  Interesting note: the elvish word "yrch" is really
    plural.  the singular form is "arch".
    
    Wook

    Re .204
    
    "Ent," I'm told, comes from an old word for "giant."  And in C.
    S. Lewis's Narnia story "The Silver Chair," the heroes travel to
    a land of giants called "Ettinsmoor," which looks like it could
    be linguistically related.  (But only linguistically.  The giants
    of Ettinsmoor were not treelike or even particularly nice.  They
    were classic, man-eating, loutish, stupid, Jack-and-the-Beanstalk
    giants.)
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Re: .205
    
    "yrch" plural & "arch" singular?  I seem to remember reading somewhere
    in the back of either "Silmarillion" or "Return of the King" that
    orc was derived from the elvish "orch".  Also, there was a distinction
    between the big orcs, called "Uruks" and the small orcs, called
    "snaga" (orc speech for slave).  Anyone else out there remember
    this passage or am I just hallucinating again?
    
    Something else I've always wondered about. Anyone want to comment
    on the similarities between "Ungoliant" and "Cirith Ungol".  Does
    this mean that the term "ungol" relates to big-mamma foul-smelling
    evil hairy spider-like creatures of the dark?
    
    ... Bob
    

    "Ungol" or a word very close to it is Elvish for "spider," and "Cirith
    Ungol" means "Spider Pass."  I suppose "-iant" may be an amplifying
    suffix, like the Italian "-issimo," so that "Ungoliant" may mean
    "mothering big spider."  I believe there is a Tengwar letter named
    "ungwe," which means "web" and is probably related.
    
    "Snaga," as you remark, is just Black Speech for "slave," and I
    don't think it has any necessary connection with orcs.  It's just
    something they call someone they hold in contempt, e.g. each other.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Orcs?  Orcs?  Hmmmm.
    
    Actually, I agree with ...... (sorry, forgot who it was) who said
    that "orch" and "yrch" were singular and plural forms of the elvish
    words.  By the way, is that Quenya, Sindarin, or both?  I think the 
    latter.
    
    Orcs, as every student of JRR knows, were bred early in the First Age
    by Morgoth from elves that he captured.  But what do we know about
    them? They were short as a race (some LARGE Uruks were said to be
    almost man-high).  They had swarthy skin, fangs of some sort, and
    walked in a hunched or slouched position.  They avoided light when they
    could.  They seemed to have rather foul habits in general.  They
    favored scimitars and wore iron-shod shoes.  Their "machines" (such as
    those of Isengard) produced much foul pollution, and perhaps other
    goods as well.  Their endurance was incredible, for they could march
    hundreds of miles with little rest.  They seemed to be long-lived
    (though perhaps they were not immortal).  We never hear tell of female
    orcs, though perhaps it is difficult for humans to tell the sexes
    apart.  It is possible that they were inter-fertile with humans
    and perhaps >>shudder<< elves.  
     
    Socially, they played the game of "Survival of the Fittest", and
    thought nothing of murdering superiors to get ahead.
    
    In short, *I* wouldn't want one for a neighbor, even though I consider
    myself to be non-prejudice.   :-)
    
    Other comments?
    
    				=ELB=

    I got the "yrch" plural, "arch" singular from the index of persons
    and peoples at the end of _The Return of the King_.  The entry
    indicated that "yrch" was "elvish".  My guess would be that the
    entry is a typo and should read "orch" for the singular.  The language
    is Sindarin or possibly Silvan.
    
    The form of the plural then matches the Sindarin form with which I'm
    familiar.  Pluralizing involves shifting vowels is some cases: 
    
    a->e and o->y
    
    	mallorn -> mellyrn	(golden?-tree)
    	amon    -> emyn		(hill or mount)
    	annon   -> ennyn	(door)
    
    This form does not explain:
    
    	orod -> ered (mountain)
    	aran -> erain (king) (also adan -> edain [man])
    	
    Perhaps these form their own categories.
    
    Examples of pluralizing in Quenya:
    
    	Silmaril -> Silmarilli
    	Vala	 -> Valar
    
    I'll see what else I find out.
    
    Wook

    re:.209
    
    Hey, the description sounds like my neighbor - I've always wondered
    if there were still some orcs left...although I think he doesn't
    know it himself.  The fact that he has two children by a human
    wife might point in the direction of interbreeding between the races.
    I wonder if Illuvatar will let the children decide if they want
    to be orc or human when they reach the proper age??
    
    Any comments???

    I always thought the heavy industry of Isengard was Saruman's idea,
    although in "The Hobbit" Tolkien "credits" orcs with the invention
    of much weaponry and polluting machinery.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    re:.212
    
    Much of the weaponry and polluting machinery were indeed invented
    by orcs.  Saruman might have added more garbage to the heap when
    he converted Isengard to Stinkengard, but also one must remember
    that The Hobbit took place long before Saruman openly became evil,
    and so up to that time, the orcs would have been the major inventors.
    
    Also, I always wondered something about the ENTS.  They are hardly
    ever mentioned in the Silmarillion, and even in LOTR their history
    is not completely described.  For example, where indeed did the
    ENTWIVES go, and were they perchance the trees that were seen to
    be walking around in the Shire?  (I remember something about that!)
    
    --Sunil

    So what about trolls?  If orcs were elves that Morgoth corrupted,
    then were trolls originally ents that were corrupted?  I personally
    don't think so.  Ents are clearly based on trees.  Trolls seem to
    have a connection with stone, as some brands turn to stone in sunlight.
    
    There are not too many descriptions of trolls that I can recall. There
    are the three Higgins brothers (Hewy, Dewy, and ..... No, it was Tom,
    Dick, and... Oh, well....) that were about to have cream-of-dwarf soup
    in _The Hobbit_.  There was a troll that Frodo? stabbed in the foot in
    the Chamber of Marzarbul (sp?) in Moria, and there was a BIG troll that
    fell on Pippin during the battle at the Morannon. 
    
    They seem to be BIG and STRONG, have a scaley hide, and have foul
    dark blood.  Also, normal blades (I think) sort of bounce off them.
    
    				=ELB=

I don't believe that all Orcs/Goblins were all "swarthy", at least
circa _The Hobbit_, where I believe some of the Misty Mountain
goblins were described as "pallid" or pale skinned.

Seems to me it was also stated clearly at one point that Orcs
were a race created by Morgoth in mockery of Elves, and that
Trolls were created in mockery of Ents.  Apparently there were
no comparable races created to mock Men and Dwarves, because
these showed up on the scene too late for Morgoth's activities
to get focused on them in the same way.

After seeing how Donaldson (e.g., Saltheart Foamfollower and
Cable Seadreamer) handled the Giants (who essentially came out
of the same Nordic mythological tradition that inspired Tolkien),
it's interesting to think of how Giants could have been worked
into _The Lord of the Rings_ and companion works.  The only mention
of Giants that I recall was that of the "stone giants hurling
boulders" at the dwarves as they tried to cross the high pass of
the Misty Mountains just prior to their capture by goblins in _The
Hobbit_.  The reference was deliberately vague as to its intent
(metaphorical or literal).  In some ways I think _The Hobbit_
liberated Tolkien from his mythology and allowed him freer play
with some of the elements of his universe.

    RE: pallid orcs
    
    Hmmmm.  Could be.  I might have been influenced by the multitude
    of fantasy artists who depict orcs as dark-skinned hunch-backed
    monsters.  
    
    
    RE: Trolls in mockery of Ents
    
    Now that you mention it, I think you're right.  It WAS a fact that
    Morgoth couldn't CREATE life, but only mutate it.  I suppose Ents
    aren't THAT far away in form.
    
    
    RE: Stone giant throwing boulders
    
    I have always assumed these creatures to be trolls.  Is it not true
    that it was dark in the sky when this was happening?

    
    RE: Donaldson's Giants
    
    Yes, I thought Foamfollower was great.

    
    				=ELB=

    You know...I'm disappointed....
    
    After finishing up reading the Hobbit again, I got so excited that
    I decided to rent the movie and watch it...the last time I'd seen
    it was about six or seven years ago maybe, and I did not remember
    a thing about it!  Now I know why -- IT WAS HORRIBLE.
    
    I understand that they had to cut parts out, but such a poor job
    was done...The dwarves looked disgusting-- not like dwarves to me.
    
    Also, even though they would cut out parts, sometimes the text was
    kept the same, giving some inconsistencies.  For example, the scene
    where the dwarves kept on blundering into the elven folks feast
    was cut out, and yet after the encounter with the spiders Bilbo
    screams for the dwarves to run to the clearing of the elven people-
    which they haven't even seen or heard of.  The next thing is that
    the elven people (grotesque looking) take the dwarves hostage and
    the elven king asks why they have been molesting their people. 
    Of course, in the movie the dwarves never even got to the feast,
    let alone upset it.
    
    All things said, it was a shoddy production at best...many of the
    other scenes were left out as well, and that really perturbed me!
    
    I hope someday a true version of the Hobbit will be produce; one
    that keeps to the text better, or at least smoothly progresses from
    one scene to the next...
    
    
    --Sunil

    Re .217
    
    I have yet to see any movie version of "The Hobbit" or LotR that
    was any good at all.  The people who did "The Hobbit" you saw also
    did a version of LotR in which, besides many other inaccuracies,
    they had an Aragorn who did not believe in elves (instead of having
    been engaged to one for the last 50 years), and Bilbo cast as "king
    of the hobbits."  Oh it was dreadful!
    
    Ralph Bakshi did an equally dreadful LotR which would have lost
    anyone who hadn't read the books.  Not that it was any pleasure
    to watch if you HAD read the books.  Large hunks of plot were dropped
    out, and the pacing was very bad -- including long and tedious battle
    scenes with badly-done orcs which could have been shortened to give
    us more plot.
    
    The BBC radio play was okay, I guess.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Re .217,.218:
    
    Ah yes, the wonders of those 'lizards', ..oops I mean 'wizards', at
    Rankin-Bass.  They have the unchallenged ability to turn any fantasy
    story that has a special place in anyones heart into the animated
    equivilant of Gilligans Island.
    
    Rankin-Bass has somehow gotten the reputation as 'the' people to
    see for film adaptations of fantasy stories.  They base most of
    their brilliant interpetation of beloved classics on the notion
    that fantasy is something that only children are interested in,
    so they ground all of their stories in the sophistication of a 
    six year old.  This wouldn't be so bad except that they can't actually
    hire 6-year olds to work for them (child labor laws you know), so
    they only hire writers whose resum�s proudly proclaim that they
    can't write any better than a 6-year old.  Of course these writers
    really are adults, so they compensate for the for their lack of
    innocence by substituting stupidity.
    
    They complete this insightful artistic approach by hiring illustrators
    who apparently got their start by fingerpainting mug shots.  But
    they do have standards of course, to be animator for one of these
    productions you must not only have the normal lack of talent, but
    you must also be able to draw any person or creature with a huge-eyed
    slack-jawed appearance (that look of innocence, you know), and a
    nose the size of a bologna loaf (comic relief, because its all in
    fun, right?).

    If I had my way these guys wouldn't be allowed to animate anything
    other than test patterns.
    
    --  Barry
    
    
    ( P.S.  Sorry for the flames.  They broke my heart on "The Last
    Unicorn" and I will never ever forgive them.)

    	I have seen Ralph Bakshi's animated version of LotR in my local
    video store and have a question on it if anyone has rented this
    tape.  I saw this in a theater when it was originally released in
    about 1978.  At that time is was subtitled "Part 1" and as I recall
    it ended at about the middle of the second volume of the books --
    the battle of Helm's Deep was the climactic scene.  However, I never
    did see any theatrical release of part 2.  My question then is whether
    this production was ever completed and if the video-tape version
    of it carries the story to the end.  Does anyone know or should
    I risk the $2.75 to rent it and see for myself?

    RE: .221
    
    The brief answer to your question is, "No." I understand that Bakshi
    intended to film the "sequel" but because of a poor box-office
    reception to the first film he was never able to obtain financing.
    It's been a long time since I read Bakshi's reasons, but from what
    I remember, he decided to end the film at the scene you mention
    because he couldn't figure out a method to film the entire triilogy
    complete without making it too long to be a commercial success,
    and because of the expense.
    
    Although this is a comment that probably is more appropriate for the
    Movies conference, the LotR film is the only movie that comes to
    my mind that was obviously intended to have a sequel - but never
    did. 
    
    Fred

    Re: -1
    
    Ah...what about Mel Brooks' "History of the World, Part 1"?
    

    Re .220,.221:
    
    As I remember it, Bashki did not own the rights for it, the studio
    that contracted him did.  They were displeased with his work on
    the film (and presumably its box office showing) and would not let
    him finish it.  Instead after considerable time they contracted
    Rankin-Bass to do the second half and showed it as a made-for-TV
    special (this is why it seems to start in the middle of things).
    
    Which certainly makes it one of the oddest two part movies in history.
    Sort of like having Dali paint the first half of the Cistine chapel
    and having a street caricaturist finish it off.
    
    
    --  Barry

Path: muscat!decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!ukc!reading!onion!
From: [email protected] (Dominic Dunlop)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers
Subject: BBC LORD OF THE RINGS tapes
Summary: Officially released in UK through EMI 12th October
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 9 Oct 87 10:47:23 GMT
Reply-To: [email protected] (Dominic Dunlop)
Organization: Sphinx Ltd., Maidenhead, England
Lines: 68
 
    Following up my postings to the net of last month (the references
for which have gone the way of all standard-expiry items), here's the
text of a press release I received from BBC Enterprises (together with
a poster, which I might pin up in the computer room to make up for my
current lack of beard, sandals or long, unkempt hair). 
 
    Dominic Dunlop
 
		       TRADE EDITION
 
		   THE LORD OF THE RINGS
 
		       J.R.R. TOLKIEN
 
    The celebrated Radio 4 production of LORD OF THE RINGS was first
broadcast in 1981.  This brilliant adaptation of Tolkien's epic fable
soon attracted an enormous popular following. 
  
    It was repeated earlier this year to mark the 50th anniversary of
Tolkien's most famous creation - THE HOBBIT. At the same time, BBC
Records made the whole series available by mail order. 
 
      "The response has been staggering, with triple the
       anticipated orders.  In view of this, we are releasing
       a trade edition of LORD OF THE RINGS on October 12th,
       which we are sure will be stocked by all major book
       and record stores.  Furthermore, this success means
       additional Radio 4 series, dramas and readings, are
       actively being considered for release next spring"
 
       (David Risner, Head of Home Entertainment, BBC Enterprises)
 
    The set consists of thirteen hour-long cassettes attractively
packaged in a black and gold box, with a map of Middle Earth and full
production details.  The all star cast includes Ian Holm, Michael
Hordern, Robert Stephens and Peter Woodthorpe. 
  
Catalogue number:	RINGS 1
 
Release date:		12th October 1987
 
Distributor:		EMI Records [telephone] 01-561 8722
				    [international +44 1 561 8722]
 
Retail price:		#39.95 (including VAT [of 15%])
 
In store poster.
 
Stephen Oliver's specially composed music for the series
 
		      Album:    REH 415
 
		      Cassette: ZCR 415
 
For further information please contact:
 
Brian Gibson ................. 01-576 0600
 
Anabel Cottrell .............. 01-576 0602

Hi. I'm new to this file and I wanted to read all the past replies before making
any new ones. I've got all kinds of questions, and comments to make.  First of
all, I have really enjoyed my numerous readings of JRRT's works (with the
possible exception of the Silmarillion, which is interesting, but which I am
still trying to wade through). 

I've noticed how well Tolkien has managed to keep careful track of the phases of
the moon when jumping from one book/location to another. However, I believe I've
found one error in The Hobbit. 

At the entrance to Erebor, on Durins Day, the thin crescent moon shows just
above the rim of Earth as the sun is setting, nearly a new moon. However, a few
days (how many?) later, after dark the sentries see Smaug flaming across the
lake towards them. Then, as Bard is about to shoot his Black Arrow, the thrush
tells him to wait for the moon to rise over the mountains on the eastern shore
and light up the bare patch in Smaug's "armor". For the moon to rise AFTER
sunset, it must be full or on the wane, at least TWO WEEKS after the new moon. 

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong, but at one point, the entrance is described as
"five feet high the door and three may walk abreast". At another time, the door
is stated to be three feet wide. Am I wrong? 

Another question: Why didn't Frodo simply hitch a lift from Gwaihir to Orodruin?
It certainly would have avoided a lot of trouble for all concerned.    ;^) 

Were Galadriel and Celeborn actually married or did they simply live together as
Galadriel said "...I have dwelt with him for time out of mind..." or some such
thing. Also, if they were married, why didn't Celeborn follow Galadriel into the
West? 

I haven't heard anyone make mention of a three record set of Nicol Williamson
reading "The Hobbit".  He does a very good job narrating the story and brings
life to each of the characters with close to twenty different recognizable
voices. This is an Argo album, #ZPL1196/9. I first heard it played on Jean
Sheppard's (sp?) radio show, 5-10 years ago.  

I've also listened to and recorded the BBC series mentioned earlier when it was
broadcast on PBS in 1982 or (84?). It was very well done and my only complaint
is that too much had to be left out for the sake of brevity (Tom Bombadil,
etc.). I just returned with the family from a Thanksgiving trip to Syracuse,
which just by chance took 13 hours, "there and back again". Just enough time to
listen to the tapes for the umpteenth time. 

I'm a railroad model builder and I've built numerous dioramas with a railroading
theme. I've often thought it would be fun to build small dioramas depicting
scenes out of the Hobbit and tLotR. Some scenes that come to mind are: 

	Smaug swooping over Laketown. 
	The exterior and interior of The Prancing Pony.
 	The west entrance to Moria. 
	The passage of the company through the Argonath. 
	The meeting with Beorn. 
	Bilbo's first meeting with Gandalf.
 	The last homely house. 
	The meeting with Galadriel in the Mallorn tree. 
	Helm's gate and the deeping coombe. (BTW, what's a coombe, anyway?) 
	The window on the west. 
	The crossroads. 

I've ruled out any scenes that include Orcs, Nazgul or any other evil creatures
since giving them form would only tend to lessen the fear and terror of the
unseen (unless the creature is VERY clearly described in the text. Any other
suggestions for your favorite scene(s)? 

Dave Busch 

    Re .225
    
    Moon: I think several days, perhaps enough to move the moon around,
    are mentioned, but no exact figure given.
    
    "Three abreast" is three dwarves.  I admit that dwarves always struck
    me as more than one foot wide, but no figures were ever given.
    
    Gwaihir's airlift: Presumably the skies over Mordor would not be
    safe.  After all, until moments before Gwaihir's takeoff, they had
    eight pterodactyl-riding Nazgul; there might have been other evil
    air forces as well.
    
    I believe Galadriel and Celeborn are spoken of as married, though
    I can't recall where.  I feel quite certain that Tolkien would not
    casually put such important goods guys into an irregular relationship;
    he might do it, but he wouldn't be casual about it.  Celeborn did
    linger a little longer in Lorien, but that need not imply anything
    odd in an elvish marriage.  Once, Arwen popped over to Lorien for a visit
    with grandmama; meanwhile, Elrond had taken in Aragorn as a fosterling;
    he grew to manhood and THEN, fifty years after she left, Arwen came
    back.  Aragorn had never seen or even heard of her before, because
    the elves did not regard the separation time as significantly long.
    
    Iron Crown Enterprises has a large collection of maps for their
    Middle Earth role-playing game; this might help you in constructing
    your dioramas.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Re .-1 & .-2

With regard to the phases of the moon and the time between the opening of the
door to the tunnel and the death of Smaug: 

After entering the door at sunset, Bilbo goes down the tunnel and returns with
the gold cup and returns that night. The next day he ventures down the tunnel
again and has his confrontation with Smaug and learns about the bare patch in
his armor, and that Smaug has missed the cup and found their camp and eaten the
ponies. That evening, he tells the Dwarves (and the Thrush) what he has learned.
Shortly after that, they shut the door and Smaug attacks the door with fire,
etc. This fire is what the guards at Laketown are referring to the next evening
when they mistakenly believe that the King under the Mountain is forging gold
again. A short time later, Smaug attacks the town and is killed. Unless I've
forgotten something, that makes two days, which for the moon should have taken
two weeks.

<     Gwaihir's airlift: Presumably the skies over Mordor would not be
<     safe.  After all, until moments before Gwaihir's takeoff, they had
<     eight pterodactyl-riding Nazgul; there might have been other evil
<     air forces as well.

After the incident at the ford of Bruinen, the Nazgul returned to Mordor
without their steeds, presumably on foot. This would have given Frodo a month
or two before the Nazgul took to the skies. However, I only asked the question
tongue-in-cheek. Obviously, if Frodo had flown, there wouldn't have been any
story to tell, or at least, not the same story.  ;^)   Also, was it 8, or 7?
Didn't Legolas shoot down some flying creature over the Anduin shortly before
the breaking of the fellowship?
    
<     Iron Crown Enterprises has a large collection of maps for their
<     Middle Earth role-playing game; this might help you in constructing
<     your dioramas.
    
Actually, I wasn't looking for that sort of help. I was just curious as to 
what scenes out of Middle Earth other folks considered to be their favorites,
and would enjoy seeing a model of. Just taking a poll, if you take my meaning.

Dave

    Thanks for starting this note up again.  Here are two of my favorites,
    along with quotes (quotes by memory, so please be kind ;-):
    
    
    
    "The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun!"
    
    				-- Gandalf, at the bridge of Khazad-dum
    
    
    "But I shall not be dark, but bright as the morning sun!  All shall
    love me, and despair!"
    
    				-- Galadriel, near the Mirror of Galadriel
    

    				=ELB=

    How about the scene at the Prancing Pony where Frodo is dancing
    on the table singing "Hey diddle diddle ..."
    
    Or the scene in Fangorn Forest when Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard.
    
    Or Sam carrying Frodo on his back up the slopes of Mount Doom.
    
    ... Bob
    

    I'm new to this note , and have attempted to read through most of
    the replies . 
    
    And there I was , thinking I new a bit about Middle Earth .
                      
    The scene that will always stay in my mind from Lord of the Rings
    is the battle on the bridge at Moria . Two super powers locked in
    a duel to the death . 
      
    I was only eleven or twelve when I first read the book , and this
    particular piece ..... , well , if it didn't damn well bring a few
    tears to the eyes . 
    And later on , when he re-appeared , I actually had the hairs on
    the back of my neck stand up when I half guessed who the stranger
    in white would be .
    
    I was very fortunate to have friends who recommended the book ,
    but didn't spoil it by saying 'wait till you get to the bit when
    .... happens' . 
    
    Nearly twenty years later (oops!) , it still remains the book it
    was .......... and probably always will .   
    
    
    John J
    
    p.s. If some of you have not listened to the BBC radio series ,
    do not waste any more time . 
    The voice of Gollum (Peter Woodthorpe) is outstanding .
    
    I think he won an award for it .
    
    
    
    

From:	DECWRL::"[email protected]" "Mark Mandel  10-Dec-87 1331 EST" 
	10-DEC-1987 14:15
To:	ldp::busch
Subj:	 ringworm notes

Well, I've just read through 1-100 with enjoyment.  There are things I'd
like to comment on, but I haven't the time, etc., to do it all now.
Just one point I ask you to enter for me:
 
Please, get the man's name right:  John Ronald Reuel Tolkien.  That's
TOLKIEN, "I" before "E"!  The second syllable is pronounced like "keen",
not "kine".  (BTW, Reuel is a Biblical name.)
 
                                        Pocks,
                                          Mark
 
========================================================================
Received: from BCO-MULTICS.ARPA by decwrl.dec.com (5.54.4/4.7.34)
	id AA19635; Thu, 10 Dec 87 11:10:24 PST
Message-Id:  <[email protected]>

    My, leave a topic for a while and all sorts of things will be waiting
    for you when you get back.  Whenever this topic slows down, someone
    new always comes around to liven things up.  Thank the Valar
    for that. :-)
    
    Probably one of the most poignant scenes is the death of Denethor,
    a proud man broken by the will of Sauron.  I also liked the scene
    between Faramir and Eowyn in the House of Healing (in the garden
    or on a balcony? I forget.)
    
    Here's an interesting question.  If you were to find yourself in
    Middle Earth, what would you be?  You can base this answer on what
    you'd like to be, or what would fit you physically and emotionally.
    
    Being oriental, I guess I'd probably be an Easterling, (hopefully like
    Bor who fought for the Eldar during the First Age.)  I'd probably be
    apprenticed to a shaman or some sort of loremaster.  Maybe I'd be an
    archer.  But, if I had the choice, I think I'd want to be a Noldorin
    loremaster (or at least an apprentice to one if the Noldor had such
    things, apprentices I mean).  What an experience to hold the tales of
    all those bygone ages for other elves to ask about -- the Awakening,
    the Great Journey, Life in Valinor, the Tale of the Two Trees, the Oath
    of Feanor, and the list goes on and on.  Of all the races of Middle
    Earth, I've always loved the Noldor the best, I think.  So stubborn and
    noble, so talented, but foolish in their pride.  *sigh*  I'd better
    stop before I get even more maudlin than I am now. :-)
    
    Nam�ri�  (Namarie for you VT100 users ;-)
    
    Wook 

    Gee, what I'd be in Middle Earth... What a concept!
    
    I'd probably be a hobbit, or one of the random humans who lived
    on farms or in the woods. By preference, I'd be Eowyn, though probably
    not as nice - gimme that sword and get out of my way!
    
    -b

    I'd have to cast my vote for being a wizard.  The lore that they
    study, the childlike delight that Gandalf got from his fireworks,
    the smoke rings from his pipe....
    
    Regards,
    
    Keith R>

< Note 89.232 by WOOK::LEE "Wook... Like 'Book' with a 'W'" >
                 -< Who or what would you be in Middle Earth? >-

>    between Faramir and Eowyn in the House of Healing (in the garden
>    or on a balcony? I forget.)

Balcony, I think.

A couple of my favorite scenes would be those of Sam and the tower of Minas
Morgul (?).  First, where he confronts the Watchers with the Phial of Galadriel,
and the scene where he confronts the orc Grisna (?) on the stairs - to the orc
he is merely a large shadowy person with a great aura of power (The Ring, which
the orcs seem to be able to sense at short distances).  I laughed my head off
at this - Sam as an Elvin Warrior!

kevin 

    What would I be in Middle Earth?  Well, if I lost about three feet of
    height and grew hair on my feet I'd be a perfect hobbit (perhaps one of
    the Bracegirdles).  I'm about as brave and heroic as a hobbit, too. 
    
    What would I LIKE to be?  That's easy.  Since I've always been in
    love with Galadriel....
    
    Celeborn!		;-)

    				=ELB=

	No doubt about it.  Hobbits eat six meals a day, and I try!

	-- Linda H.

    
    Aw, come on.  Who's gonna believe a Dread Pirate Roberts with fuzzy
    feet. :-)
    
    I'd end up a very big hobbit.  I'd like to think I could be a wizard,
    though...
    
    DFW

    Now if I could be transplanted to Middle Earth as anybody, I'd pick
    Tom Bombadil.  Talk about a carefree existence!
    
    Hey merry dol ...
    			... Bob

Does any one remember who Bladorthin was.

Dave

    He was an elf prince who ordered some spears from the Dwarves of
    Erebor, but Smaug came and interrupted the delivery schedule.
    
    				=ELB=

Re .-2   Who was Bladorthin...
<                       -< HA!  That's an easy one!  ;-) >-
<
<    He was an elf prince who ordered some spears from the Dwarves of
<    Erebor, but Smaug came and interrupted the delivery schedule.
    
Wrong.... O dragons breath... (actually, you're right, kind of...)

That is correct, as of the current printing of The Hobbit. But I was refering 
to what may be called ancient history, but not the history of Middle earth.
Bladorthin was the name used for one of the characters BEFORE his final name 
was adopted for publication.  Who did he become?  Any more takers?

Dave

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
				    GANDALF

    
    HMMPH!  "Dragon's Breath" indeed.  You wouldn't be saying that if
    you knew I had Vilya in my pocket....
    
    
				     =ELB=

    Well, at least J.R.R. decided to call his Hobbit Bilbo instead of
    Bingo!  There was a Hobbit (not a dog!) and Bingo was his name-oh!...
    
    Wook (Elrandir) Lee

    Does anyone know which publisher has translated the Hobbit and LOTR
    in German .
    
    Extensive(ish) searching in Munich has found one German copy , in
    the most awful da-glo green covers (3 books in a box) . Guaranteed to
    make your bookcase shine in the dark !
    
    I'd like to introduce a friend to the wonders of Tolkein , but if
    I give her one of my English copies , it'll take 3 years to complete.
    
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    
    John J
    
    I do not have the BOOK conference at present , so any pointers to
    there would also be helpful
    
    thanks
                               
    

    	Try the DSSDEV::BOOKS Conference.  Press the KP7 or SELECT key
    to add BOOKS to your Notebook.
    
    	You should check out the TLE::EASYNET_CONFERENCES Conference.
    It lists the latest VAX Notes Conferences; and you might want to
    write to LSTARK::EASYNOTES to get on the mailing list for the weekly
    VAX Notes update notices.
    
    	Larry
    

    
    ........... there he is .
    
    Thanks , Larry
    
    
    John J
    

    I am new to this topic.  I think it is fantastic, and a lot of holes
    have been filled for me.  I am presently reading LOTR for the third
    time.  I just finished reading The Council of Elrond.  Something
    Elrond said got me wondering.  I do not have the book with me now
    so I can't quote him.  It was about "nothing being evil at first,
    not even Sauron."  I realized that I don't know much about Sauron.
    Who is he, when did he become evil, etc.  
    
    Why isn't The Lord of the Rings its own file.  It certainly could
    be.
    
    Tom Muldoon

re: .-1

Check out the Silmarillion for more background information on Sauron.

-Joe

    But if you don't want to bother reading the Silmarillion for that
    tidbit of news, I will answer you here.
    
    In the beginning, Eru (God) created the Music that became the world.
    He also made a number of semi-divine helpers.  Some of these helpers
    entered the world and "started construction" according to the Music.
    
    Fifteen were of surpassing power, and were called Valar.  One of 
    these is Varda (Elbereth), whom the Elves honor above the rest.
    Another Vala was Melkor, who fell from grace and became Morgoth,
    the Black Enemy of the First Age.

    The Vala Aule the Smith, responsible for the solid parts of the
    world (and who created dwarves) had among his followers a lesser 
    Vala, or Maia, who was knowledgeable in all of his arts and who
    he appointed as the chief of his people.  This Maia served long
    and faithfully, but eventually grew dissatisfied with his place
    in the Blessed Realm (my assumption).  It was not long before this 
    Maia was tempted into doing evil by Morgoth.  He served Morgoth long
    and well, and became his most trusted lieutenant.  He became quite
    nasty, and people began to call him "the Abhorred": in Sindarin,
    "Thauron" or, in Quenya, "Sauron".

    Morgoth also seduced powerful Maiar of Fire into his service, and
    these became the Balrogs.
    
    At the ending of the First Age, Morgoth was conquered, but Saruon
    (and at least one Balrog) escaped.
    
    When Sauron began causing trouble, the Valar got together and decided
    to send five Maiar, equal in power to Saruon, to battle him.   These
    were the Wizards.  Gandalf in his origin was the Maia Olorin.

    
    				=ELB=

    I didn't ask the question , but thanks for that anyway .
    
    Sort of filled in a couple of blanks .
    
    John J
    

    Re .250 & .251
    
    I don't recall that the Five Wizards were EACH as great as Sauron
    (and in fact, even the risen Gandalf seemed dubious of his ability
    to beat Sauron in a head-to-head conflict), but perhaps they were
    in TOTAL as strong as Sauron.  Yes, Saruman was greater than Gandalf
    to begin with, as far as I recall.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

In re-reading "The Hobbit", I was surprised to find reference made to one of the
other wizards, Radagast, in Gandalf's conversation with Beorn.  I guess I never
noticed that before.  Besides Gandalf the Grey (later White), Radagast the Brown
and Saruman the White, who were the remaining two wizards, and where are they 
mentioned?

Dave

re: .-something or other

I seem to recall Galadriel speaking of the Counsel and why Saruman was chosen
as its leader.  It seems that Saruman was chosen for power, while it was the 
contention of most that Gandalf had the greater wisdom.  

Radagast was mentioned several times, one that you mentioned and another wherein
he was instrumental (albeit accidental) in getting Gandalf released from the 
clutches of Saruman at Orthanc.

-Joe

Saruman may also have been chosen for his power of speech to stir the hearts
and minds of men.  I seem to remember Gandalf saying something to the effect
that the wizards were not sent to confront Sauron openly with force, but to
influence others and provide leadership.  I love the little speach Gandalf
delivers to Denethor about being a steward also, not only of Gondor, but of all
Middle-earth ( "Did you not know?" :-)).

As for the other two Istari (wizards), I don't believe they are named anywhere;
there are only vague references to them going far South and East and not coming
into the story...

There is a chapter on the Istari in UNFINISHED TALES.

Jim

    Patron	Valinorian	Sindarin	"Mannish"	Color
    ------	----------	--------	---------	-----    
    Aule	Curumo		Curunir		Saruman		White
    Manwe	Olorin		Mithrandir	Gandalf		Grey
    Orome	Alatar	  	  ???		  ???		Blue
    Orome 	Pallando	  ???		  ???		Blue
     (or Mandos)
    Yavanna     Aiewendil	  ???		Radagast	Brown

    
    Various Valar chose the messengers that would come to work against
    Saruon.  They would take the forms of old men, and were ordered
    to not use their power, but rather to rally the forces of the Free
    Peoples.  This is probably because the last time the Valar really
    showed their stuff the War of Wrath caused Beleriand to sink beneath 
    the sea.
    
    Curumo, Alatar, and Olorin were the first chosen, but then Alatar
    requested that his friend Pallando come, and Yavanna begged that
    one of her people go, because the others would not care for nature,
    her province.
    
    Curumo, Alatar, and Pallando came first, and journeyed far to the
    east.  Curumo returned alone.  Presumably the blue wizards did their
    work in the east and/or south.  Their connection to Orome could
    be significant here, for in the earliest times Orome jouneyed the
    length and breadth of Middle Earth, so maybe these two were familiar
    with those lands.  All that we know about the fate of the blue wizards
    is that they failed in their task, for it was said that Gandalf alone 
    of the wizards returned to Valinor when the age ended.

    				=ELB=

    RE: 250
    
    < When Sauron began causing trouble,
    
    Can you be more specific.  How about Sauron's history thru the second
    and third ages.  You have filled holes and your input is much apprec-
    iated.
    
    I think I can settle the Orc-Goblin issue.  We all know in the Hobbit,
    Bilbo and Company were assailed by goblins in the Misty Mountains.
    And the issue was "Is there a difference between orcs and goblins?".
    In my copy of "The Fellowship of the Ring", Tolkien's prologue sums
    up "the finding of the ring."  Well, the company ran into trouble
    with orcs in the Misty Mountains.  Conclusion, orcs and goblins
    are one and the same.
    
    Tom.

    RE:  Earl, some replies back
    
    When I said that the Istari were equal to Sauron, I meant that they
    where of the same rank, that is, they were Maiar (lesser Valar).
    Their personal power could have been much less.
    
    
    RE: Sauron's history
    
    Okay, I'll see if I can put in some more stuff about our favorite
    Dark Lord in a few days (unless Wook or Earl beats me to it   ;-).
    
    				=ELB=

>    Okay, I'll see if I can put in some more stuff about our favorite
>    Dark Lord in a few days (unless Wook or Earl beats me to it   ;-).

Or let him go directly to the source :-).  There is nothing like getting
it 'first hand'.  And he is looking to fill in holes; so let him fill in
the whole excavation :-).

-Joe

>    < When Sauron began causing trouble,
>    
>    Can you be more specific.  How about Sauron's history thru the second
>    and third ages.  You have filled holes and your input is much apprec-
>    iated.

Ah, what an interesting subject this is, and how wonderful are the powers
of sub-creation! But as for your question, let me tunnel back through my
memory, throw out a few worms, come out like a floured dumpling, and present
this outline (which is undoubtedly slightly inaccurate, but it gives the
idea):
                  
         I. Sauron during the Second Age
            1. In Middle-Earth
               a. First habitation in Mordor
               b. Among the Nolder and dwarves of Eregion
               c. Rejection by C�rdan, Gil-Galad and Elrond
               d. Forging of the Seven and the Nine Rings
               e. Forging of the Three Rings
               f. Forging of the One Ring
               g. War in Eregion and the destruction of the
                  dwarves of Khazad-Dum; the death of
                  Celebrimbor [creator of the Three Rings].

            2. In N�menor
               a. Ar-Pharaz�n and the rebellion of N�menor
               b. Ar-Pharaz�n brings Sauron to N�menor as
                  a slave.
               c. Sauron charms the King and gains power in
                  N�menor. Sauron persecutes those faithful
                  to the Valar.
               d. The wrath of Eru and the destruction of
                  N�menor.
               e. Sauron flees to Middle-Earth; the Faithful
                  flee also, "on the wings of the storm."
                                                     
            3. Back In Middle-Earth
               a. Sauron takes up the One Ring again, and
                  proceeds to build his power.
               b. Isildur and Anarion found the realms of
                  Arnor and Gondor.
               c. The N�menoreans of Middle-Earth grow in strength.
               d. Sauron "grows" also, challenges the N�menoreans.
               e. The Last Alliance is formed, to defeat Sauron.
                  Its chief members are Gil-Galad, Elrond,
                  Elendil and Isildur.
               f. The members of the Last Alliance challenge
                  Sauron on the slopes of Orodruin. Sauron
                  is vanquished, but Gil-Galad and Elendil
                  are slain. Narsil [later And�ril] is broken.
               g. The Ring is taken by Isildur. He is slain, and
                  the Ring is lost in Anduin, near the Gladden
                  Fields...

Much of this, other than the rebellion of N�menor, is discussed in the council
of Elrond. You can read about N�menor in "Lost Tales."

Namari�,

Ron

Re. Sauron.

What precisely became of Sauron when the ring went into the fire with Gollum?
Was he destroyed?  Did he die?  Did he depart (to where) and if so, will/can he
regroup his forces only to plague Middle Earth sometime in the Fourth Age?

I suppose that it's true that he lost all hope of regaining the ring and its
power but he seems to have had plenty of power even before the ring was
destroyed.  Did he lose that also?  Besides, since it was Sauron who made the
ring in the first place, why could he not make another?  Had he forgotten the
necessary knowledge and skill? 

Dave

    The key, I think, is that when Sauron made the One, he put much
    of his own power and vitality into it.  This increased his overall
    power as long as he kept it.  When the One was lost, Saruon lost
    the USE of that power, but as you say, he still possessed quite
    a bit.  
    
    When the One was destroyed, however, that part of Sauron that went
    into the One was destroyed as well, and he lost the power to manifest
    a body in Middle Earth.  Since the other Great Rings were tied to
    the One, they lost power too.

    I am not sure if Sauron was destroyed completely.  I have always
    assumed that he fell behind the Void to be with his old master Morgoth.
    
    				=ELB=

>Re. Sauron.
>
>What precisely became of Sauron when the ring went into the fire with Gollum?
>Was he destroyed?  Did he die? 

   The text is not completely clear on these points. I believe that
   Gandalf states somewhere that "Sauron will become a mere spirit of
   malice, gnawing himself in the wilderness, but unable to grow or
   take shape ever again." But clearly he did not "die;" he was of
   the spirit-folk (Maiar), who may not be slain.
                                                                           
> Did he depart (to where) and if so, will/can he regroup his forces
> only to plague Middle Earth sometime in the Fourth Age?   

   I wonder. I suppose he lives still in the "Eastern Waste," or maybe
   he accompanies Shelob...

   In relation to this, I have heard (secretive) whispers of a text
   called "The New Shadow," which Tolkien supposedly began after the
   publication of the Lord of the Rings. He never finished the project,
   but [according to Mythlore, the official publication of the
   Mythopoeic Society], Christopher Tolkien is preparing what there
   is of the text for publication. There was no hint of when it will
   be available, however.

> I suppose that it's true that he lost all hope of regaining the ring and its
> power but he seems to have had plenty of power even before the ring was
> destroyed.  Did he lose that also?

   Well, the Ring is an interesting object. It contained "much of Sauron's
   native power," because "it must be a thing of surpassing potency in
   order to rule the holders of the Three." I surmise that Sauron
   put nearly all of his power ["will?"] into the Ring. While the Ring
   survived, that power survived also. When the Ring was possessed by
   others, Sauron could wield only a small part of its power. If he
   would have regained it, he would, of course, have been  able to use it all.
   But when the Ring was destroyed, the power that was invested in it
   was lost forever, thus maiming Sauron and, seemingly, destroying
   his ability to "grow."

> Besides, since it was Sauron who made the
> ring in the first place, why could he not make another?  Had he forgotten the
> necessary knowledge and skill? 

   Yes, I suppose he could make another such Ring. But remember, the
   Ring itself did not acquire its power out of nowhere, nor out of the
   magic used in its forging. It had power only when its maker let
   part of his power flow into it. In his maimed state, it would do
   Sauron no good to make another Ring, even if he could do so.

    Here's something to give you nightmares.  While Sauron does not
    have the power within himself to remanifest himself, perhaps because
    of his knowledge of the Rings of Power, he might be able to seduce
    other maiar to start the ring process all over again.  Or perhaps
    some evil (or even not so evil) men discover a way of hoarding power
    to energize a ring or even channel it directly into Sauron's wasted
    spirit to revive him!  Human sacrifices have been used in some occult
    religions in order to achieve such an end (if you believe the rumors.)
    
    Of these possibilities, the seduction scenario has the greatest
    likelihood of coming true.  It would continue the trend of temptation
    by power followed by ultimate downfall.  First Melchor the Valar (ie.
    Morgoth), then Thauron the Maiar (Sauron), and Saruman the Istar
    (anyone remember his original name? Curu-something, I think). I'd
    predict that the next in line would be an Eldar, someone who had stayed
    behind and harbored a great resentment towards Men. Maybe a Man, even.
    
    One might want to include Feanor in the above list of those who fell
    from grace, but I don't think it's quite the same.  Feanor was more
    destroyed by pride in his own skills and creations rather than lust for
    power over others per se.
    
    Interesting thought though, huh?
    
    Namari�
    
    Elrandir (Wook I was in high school which is forgotten. :-)
    
    By the way, don't forget that there was a Numenorean King before
    Ar-Pharazon who humbled Sauron and (I think) forced him to pay some
    tribute.  It was back when the kings were still taking their royal
    names in Quenya.  Tar-Minastir, maybe? (Was there ever a Tar-Minastir?)

>    Here's something to give you nightmares.  While Sauron does not
>    have the power within himself to remanifest himself, perhaps because
>    of his knowledge of the Rings of Power, he might be able to seduce
>    other maiar to start the ring process all over again.  Or perhaps

I think Tolkien states that, after the fall of Numenor, Sauron lost his ability
to change guises, and thus could never seduce again.

This discussion prompted me to re-read the parts where Sauron and Saruman
"died," and Tolkien gives a similar description for each.  This makes sense,
since they were both Maiar.  In both cases, he describes a rising cloud of
smoke (Sauron) or grey mist (Saruman), which forms a shape which is eventually
dispersed by the wind.  In the case of Sauron, the shape is that of a
threatening hand reaching out towards the Captains of the West.  In the case of
Saruman, the shape is that of a shrouded figure which looks towards the West.

I believe Tolkien is using this symbolism to indicate that they have either
died or were tremendously weakened in power and stature.  In either case, they
are not likely to be the cause of significant evil in Middle-Earth again.

Jim

>I think Tolkien states that, after the fall of Numenor, Sauron lost his ability
>to change guises, and thus could never seduce again.
    
    There is more than one way to seduce someone.  Power and the promise of
    it can be just as seductive as a noble face and fair words. Perhaps
    another discontented Maiar will actively seek out Sauron and Morgoth in
    order to profit from the knowledge that they possess. Men are probably
    even more likely to try something like this, especially since they have
    a tendency towards short-sightedness and seem to forget the lessons of
    history more often than the other races.
    
    While I tend to agree that both Morgoth and Sauron will not likely have
    a direct role in the evils of Middle-Earth, you can bet that they will
    in some way be the cause, if only through the memory of their evil.
    Just as Sauron was Morgoth's lieutenant, perhaps the next shadow to
    rise in Middle-Earth will be some underling of Sauron's, lesser perhaps
    than his (or her) master, but able to cause great suffering none the
    less.  Does anyone remember what happened to the "Mouth of Sauron"?
    
    This would follow the trend of the Great Evil of the World becoming
    lesser and lesser in stature.
    
    New question:  What is you favorite artifact from Middle-Earth?
    		   This could be a ring, a stone, a weapon, a piece
                   of armour, clothing whatever.
    
    Namari�
    
    Wook

    The 20 Great Rings are by far my favorite magical "things" in Middle
    Earth (or if you want to be picky, then the Three, or even pickier,
    then Nenya, because we got to see it actually operate).
    
    The Silmarils didn't seem like any more than a prize, and while
    Orcrist, Glamdring, Anduril, etc are loads of fun, they don't seem
    as menacing.  All good magical items should have some sort of
    disadvantage or curse connected with them.  They should be DANGEROUS.
    
    
   				=ELB=

< Note 89.266 by WOOK::LEE "Wook... Like 'Book' with a 'W'" >
    
<    New question:  What is you favorite artifact from Middle-Earth?
<    		    This could be a ring, a stone, a weapon, a piece
<                   of armour, clothing whatever.
    
I would like to see the gifts of the lady Galadriel. In particular, the phial,
the "imperishable crystal" in which Gimli set the strand of Galadriels hair, and
the box in which Samwise was given the silver nut from the Mallorn tree. I would
someday like to make a "replica" of that box out of rare woods and inlay in it
the letter "G" for Galadriel/garden. 

Dave

>someday like to make a "replica" of that box out of rare woods and inlay in it
>the letter "G" for Galadriel/garden. 
    
    Be sure you use the Tengwar character or the Cirith rune for "G".
    
                                                    ##  ##   ##
                "Anga"                              ## ##   ##
                                                    ###    ##
            ####  ####  ###                         ##   ##
             ##    ##   ##                          ## ##
            ##    ##    ##            or            ###
            ##   ###   ###                          ##
             ####  #### ##                          ##
                        ##
                        ###                        "G" rune
    
    I tend to favor the tengwar character because it is more graceful.
    
    Wook

Path: muscat!decwrl!labrea!agate!pasteur!ames!ptsfa!pacbell!pbhyc!djo
From: [email protected] (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers
Subject: Re: Tolkein society.
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 26 Jan 88 17:28:55 GMT
Reply-To: [email protected] (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Lines: 48
                
    In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (James
Fitzwilliam) writes: 

>Well, I'm a Lewis/Tolkien fanatic, and I'll bite.  What is the Mythopoeic
>Society and how does one enter the wardrobe?
  
    The Mythopoeic Society
 
    In the 1960s, an organization called "The Tolkien Society of
America" was active throughout the land. 
 
    In the early 1970s, it collapsed.  Its principal successor is the
Mythopoeic Society. 
 
    The MS was founded by (I kid you not) Glen Goodknight of Southern
California.  Its charter, taken literally, is to discuss the work of
"J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and Charles Williams" - the fantasists
involved in Lewis's circle, the "Inklings." 
 
    Activities include the publication of a monthly newsletter
(MYTHPRINT) and a quarterly journal of scholarly works (MYTHLORE);
monthly meetings by geographically-local "branches" to discuss some
work of fantasy; annual conventions (MythCon); and special interest
groups, such as the Mythopoeic Linguistic Fellowship. 
 
    While the official charter is to study the works of the Inklings,
most branches have expanded the actual field of their study, by
including the larger field of fantasy literature in general.  The
Society's central organizing body, the "Council of Stewards," has
acknowledged the independence of the branches while maintaining a
loosely-knit governing function which provides the magazines and the
conventions. 
 
    For further information, you may write the Society at:

	P.O. Box 6707
	Alta Dena, CA  91001
 
    Subscription prices for the journals:

	Mythlore -- $12/year
	Mythprint -- $7/year

    Subscription to either journal includes one year's Society membership.
 
    Mythcon 1988 will be held in Berkeley, CA from 29 July to 1
August.  Membership is $25.  For information write to: 

	Mythcon XIX
	90 El Camino Real
	Berkeley, CA  94705
 
    Room and board for Mythcon (encouraged) are available for $130,
and must be paid by 1 July.  (Includes meals from Friday dinner
through Monday breakfast.) 

    This file is EXHAUSTING!  It takes DAYS to read all this wonderful
    information/speculation/etc., but worth it!
    
    I haven't read LOTR for a few years, but I'm inspired to dig it
    out for another go-round.  (You zealots with tens of readings stun
    me!)
    
    Minor trivia...
    
    I have an LP recording of Donald Swann and JRR Himself reading some
    of the poems and (UGH) singing some of the songs...too painful to
    bear!
    
    In college in Kalamazoo, Michigan, one of my favorite eateries
    was Bilbo's Pizza, decorated with Shire-esque carved wood booths
    and runic-type calligraphy on menus and signs.  When they opened
    they offered free pizza to Tolkien trivia buffs who could answer
    the riddles.
    
    On a more somber (??) note, when I taught high school art way back
    in seventy-five or so, I had a student who thought it was great
    fun to call me Shelob!  (I, being five-feet tall, more closely resemble
    a hobbit, I guess.) Teenagers!
    
    On dioramas, back when I fantasized about free time, I had a lovely
    set of (unpainted) Tolkien figures meant for "war-gaming".  A complete
    fleet of Nazgul, a balrog, Gandalf, hobbits, Smaug (I loved that
    dragon!), and more.  My intent was (for years!!) to make a sort
    of time-lapse Ringquest diorama, probably several feet wide, with
    dramatic lighting and all that.  Last year, after moving the cigarbox
    full of figures a dozen times, I gave up and gave the figures to
    a friend who plays D&D and other FRP games, and who might actually
    use the figures.  (I feel twinges of regret every so often about
    that decision...)
    
    Never loan books -- I had a wonderful copy of The Road Goes Ever
    On, the song cycle, given and autographed by dear friends, which
    I stupidly loaned to a "friend"...he never gave it back and I lost
    track of him (and MY book) years ago...never to find a replacement.
    
    (I never noticed how many Tolkien anecdotes I have...guess I HAVE
    to re-read the books!)
    
    If I were in Middle Earth, I'd like to be Goldberry.  Just because!
    
    My favorite artifacts are Galadriel's gifts.
    
    My favorite scene for a diorama (there are MANY) might be Bilbo
    and Smaug...like I said, I love that dragon!  (Well, dragons in
    general!)
    
    My pet peeve is the Hildebrandt art...to me, Aragorn never would
    have a beard and Galadriel shouldn't look like a hefty German farm
    lass!  (If anyone disagrees, could you explain why?)
    
    Lots of questions came to me over the last few days of dropping
    into and out of this file, and, of course, they are gone now!  But
    I'll be back!  This is just too much fun!
    
    Sherry

>    On a more somber (??) note, when I taught high school art way back
>    in seventy-five or so, I had a student who thought it was great
>    fun to call me Shelob!  (I, being five-feet tall, more closely resemble
>    a hobbit, I guess.) Teenagers!

I really hate to mention it, but SHELOB was more of the Spider variety :-)
Did this person dislike you that much? :-)

>    If I were in Middle Earth, I'd like to be Goldberry.  Just because!

Much better than Shelob, you know.....

>    Lots of questions came to me over the last few days of dropping
>    into and out of this file, and, of course, they are gone now!  But
>    I'll be back!  This is just too much fun!

Seems like this is a good place to ask.  Where else can you finding writing
that rivals the original books in mere size, let alone content :-) ?

-Joe

    I just got a copy of a recording done by Decca records in the early
    70s of _The Hobbit_ recited by Nichol Williams (If you caught Excaliber
    a couple of years ago, he played Merlin.)  Highly recommended if
    you can find a copy.)
    
    Re: -2 I thought that the bros. Hildebrant are by far the best of
    the fantasy illustrators.  With a name like Hildebrant it's not
    hard to see way they like German lasses! :-)  I'd be interested
    to hear of an other artists that are serious GOOD fantasy workers.
    
    Regards,
    
    Keith R>

    re:.273
    
    The Brothers Hildebrandt the *best* of the fantasy illustrators?!
    Gack! I think their art is (with one or two exceptions) hideous.
    
    Take a look at Darrell Sweet's work for high quality fantasy art.
    
    --- jerry
    
    (I don't normally read this note, since I'm not a Tolkien fan ---
    emphatically not --- but I just happened to catch this reply while
    NEXT_UNSEENing through.)

    			>>>GASP<<<
    
		      NOT a JRR fan?

    	   Why, Jayembee, I thought everybody was....

    
    			 =ELB=

Speaking of art, I'm somewhat partial to the drawings by JRRT himself. While
not GREAT, and certainly not phantasy art they posess a certain charm and 
character all their own. I recently was given a copy of the 50th anniversary 
edition of "The Hobbit" (I wasn't aware that September 21st was the original
date of publication of The Hobbit.  So that is where Bilbo's birthday comes 
from.  Also, since it was in the Spring of Bilbo's fiftieth year that he 
started on his fateful journey, I guess this is the year to celebrate it.)

Anyway, as I was saying about the art, I really enjoyed seeing the scenes of 
Middle Earth as depicted by Tolkein. The only negative comment I could make is 
that the pictures of Bilbo (and the Dwarves, Fili and Kili, I think) were not 
very well done, and indicated to me that perhaps JRRT didn't really know what 
they were supposed to look like ;^).  However, the pictures I liked best were 
the ones of Hobbiton, Gwaihir (actually, it was one of the other eagles, if I'm 
not mistaken), Laketown, Smaug, and the entrance to the Elven King's hall.

Dave.

P.S. I found one or two typographical errors in the text. Does that make the 
     book more valuable (� la philately) or should I report them to the 
     publishers?   ;^)

P.P.S. With all of the discussion in the new forward about the wrangling over
       what the original edition and it's cover should have looked like (eg. 
       binding colors, etc.) why is the new re-edition nothing like what JRRT
       wanted in the first place. The original compromises had to do with costs
       and the concerns that the book may not have been a success. I would have
       thought that that would no longer have been a concern.

    Just thought I'd add another voice to the "Hildebrandt?  Yuck!" chorus. 
    Their work just doesn't fit my mind's eye view of *any* of the aspects
    of Middle Earth.

    The Hobbit & LotR that I read the first time had pre-Hildebrandt covers
    which were much better.  They were loaners, and when I went to buy my
    own set, I was upset at the awful new art they'd gotten.  I have one or
    two of the old covers - I'll see if there's an artist's credit on them.

    I've seen random stuff at cons and on friends' walls that was much
    better than tBH.

    Beverly

    In my opinion the art done for the LOTR role-playing supplements
    (Iron Crown Enterprises) is pretty good.  There is a "Bridge of
    Khazad-dum" scene that has Gandalf's hat complete with orc arrow
    (mentioned in passing in the text).  The "Eowyn vs Witch King" scene
    is also perfect in my mind.  The artist is (I think) Angus McBride.
    
				=ELB=

My first copies of The Hobbit and LOTR came in a paperback boxed set.  The
cover art was by Tolkien.  Later, I received a special "Collector's Edition,"
which is a hardcover version containing all three books in the trilogy.  The
cover is, appropriately, red, with a drawing in gold and blue resembling the
top half of the picture on the doors of Moria rotated by 90 degrees.  It also
comes with a protective box.

We've now heard of special editions for The Hobbit and LOTR, does anyone know
if there is a special edition of The Silmarillion?

re: Hildebrandt
I seem to remember one of theirs from the 1980 or 1981 calander which I didn't
care for, called "The Death of Boromir."

re: Sweet
Sweet's rendition of Gollum and the hobbits are not at all how I imagine them.

There are some from the calanders that are very good, however.  I don't
remember the artists' names, but some of them were:

"The Mouth of Sauron" depicts Gandalf confronting Sauron's servant.  Gandalf
stands with his arms outstretched, staff in one hand, and a light seems to
eminate from him.  "The Mouth" shrinks back in fear.

"The Eagles are Coming" depicts Frodo and Sam on Mount Doom, after the ring has
been destroyed.  Lava streams down the side of the mountain, and Barad Dur is
crumbling in the background.  In the distance, Gandalf and Gwaihir are coming
to the rescue.

Another one of my favorites, which I don't even remember the title of, was a
centerfold showing Gandalf on Shadowfax confronting the Nazgul at the gate to
Minas Tirith.  The Nazgul sits on a black horse, rearing, and with fire blowing
from its nose.  The other Nazgul are flying through the air in the background.

Enough for now,

Jim

    I just hired into DEC 2 months ago and I just discovered this
    conference.  I was pleasantly surprised to see how many LOTR fanatics
    were out there besides my wife and myself.  The book really isn't
    as well read now as in the 70's so there's less people to discuss
    it with.  What I really miss is my opportunity in the 70's to get
    a color wall map of Middle Earth that was widely sold at that time.
    I've looked all over for it recently and sadly, no one even knows
    what I'm talking about.  Can anybody help me find a place where
    I can order one?

    You're speaking of the Baynes map?
    
    	<Insert evil smirk here>

    Next time you're in Colorado, I'll show you my copy, but I'll not
    sell it.
    
    I'm afraid it's long out of print.  I got mine in Cincinnati in
    1977.  I wanted to pick up another, but on the budget of a high
    school junior....
    
    				=ELB=

I attended Mythcon this past July, and, alas, I could not locate a copy
of the Baynes map anywhere. There were oodles and oodles of maps from Iron
Crown Enterprises, though, but they're just not the same. I really appreciate
the authentic feel and look of the Baynes map. Oh well.

Ron

    There are very nice maps of Middle Earth in various ages in the
    hardcover editions of the various Tolkieniana edited by Christopher
    Tolkien.  He drew the maps for his dad, so in that sense they are going
    to be as gennuine as they come.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    The Atlas of Middle Earth by Karen ........  Fostead??  Sorry, I
    spaced her name, but it does begin with "F".  She has done several
    other atlas books on Pern, Covenant's Land, and the Dragonlance
    world.  
    
    The Middle Earth version is absolutely great!
    
    			=ELB=

    Favorite scene:  almost any of the scenes in the Battle of the Pelenor
    Fields.  Among my favorite, when Eomer throws up his sword upon
    the unfurling of Aragorn's standared on the Black Ships, Eowyn
    defeating the Lord of the Nazgul (with the help of Merry, who is
    NOT a man), the banter between the LotN and Fandalf at the riven
    Gate of Gondor and (from slightly earlier) the rescue of Faramir.
    
    Trivia time!
    
    Name the spear of Gil-Galad
    
    What is the name of the device that broke the Gate of Gondor and
    cite the history of the name.
    
    Tony

    Gil-Galad's spear was Aiglos.  The battering ram was named "Grond"
    after the war-hammer of Morgoth.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    RE: 284
    
    The artists name is Karen Fondstadt.  I have her Atlas of Pern and
    it is very good.  In the UK Atlas of Middle Earth is available in
    hard copy only and costs about #25 (pounds sterling).  I've been
    hinting that I'd like a copy for Christmas or birthday for ages,
    butno one has yet to take notice.  Think I'll have to treat myself.
    Anyway, I know it can be ordered through Smith's or Hudson's.
    
    Michelle
    (now of the newly opened) Nottingham Office, UK
    

    re: 286
    
    Very good!  
    
    Also, from Silmarilion, Grond was the weapon used to kill Fingolfin.
    
    Tony

I'm re-re-reading The Hobbit, and last night I got to the chapter "Inside 
information". In his dialog with Smaug, Bilbo refers to himself as "he who 
buries his friends alive and drowns his friends and draws them from the water 
again" as well as a whole bunch of other clues to his identity, which is, of 
course, the correct way to talk to dragons. I can't recall the episode that he 
is refering to when he talks about burying his friends. All of the other 
references are obvious to me. Any suggestions?

Dave

    re: .829
    
    Was that in the home of the barrowright?

    No, the barrow wight incident occurred some 70 years later to FRODO,
    not Bilbo. 
    
    At a guess, could Bilbo be speaking of the trek through the Goblin
    caves or in the caverns of the Elvenking?  (Yes, I know the first
    is likely the "over hill and under hill" part.)
    
    Maybe, on the other hand, he is "burying" them in the water....
    
    				=ELB=

    I have often commented, since moving to the UK 12 years ago, that
    the reason Tolkein could write so convincing of the gloom of Mordor
    was that he was English and had, therefore, experienced the delights
    of the English winter.  Roll on Spring!!
    
    Michelle
    

Ya oughta try winter in Chicago!

/Ron

    Been out of it for a bit...Back a few notes there was a discussion
    of LoTR artwork and calendars.  Does anyone remember who did the
    calendar about 1976-78?  Tim something?  I no longer have the
    calendar, but it had everyone *right* as far as I was concerned.
    If anyone comes up with the artist's name, did he do anything
    else, LoTR or otherwise?  More important, is it still available? 

    As I remember the calendar's centerfold, it had Gandalf talking to
    Frodo at the door of Frodo's dwelling, both standing, Gandalf
    facing us and Frodo facing Gandalf.  I think it was airbrushed,
    with a lot of blue colors and overtones. The "same color" pattern
    is one I associate with Michael Whelan--but surely I would
    remember if he'd done LoTR artwork!

    -- Linda

    Not the Hildebrandts -- I first saw their work on a calendar
    the year after the-calendar-by-the-artist-I-really-liked.  I
    didn't like their work then, as being so much different than
    the previous, and I still don't like H brother's work.
    Tastes differ, but all the Hildebrandt figures look lifeless
    to me, like they were painted from clay models. 

    While writing this, the name Tim Kirk crept out from a
    cobwebby corner of my mind.  Could this be the name of the
    artist of approx 1976/78, or am I just hallucinating?  If
    I've got the right name, (it feels right), who is he anyway?
    Is he still around? 

    -- Linda 

    re .296 - yes, that sounds right.  I think I may have a copy of
    the calendar you remember.  I'll check tonight.
    
    len.
    

    
    Whoever it was, I agree that they were much better.  I remember rushing
    to see the new calendar, and being *really* distressed at the inferior
    quality of the new drawings.
    
    Beverly
    

    re .296 et seq. - Yes, the 1975 Tolkien Calendar from Ballantine
    Books was done by Tim Kirk.  Kirk was an art major at California
    State University at Long Beach, and did a portfolio of 26 paintings
    from The Lord of the Rings for his thesis.  13 of these paintings
    were used in the calendar:
    
    	January		Smaug
    	February	The Riddle Game
    	March		Fire and Water
    	April		Frodo Meditates
    	May		Moggot's [sic] Farm
    	June		The Well in Moria
    	centerfold	Gandalf and Bilbo
    	July		The Mirrormere
    	August		Galadriel
    	September	The Road to Minas Tirith
    	October		Two Orcs
    	November	The Cracks of Doom
    	December	The Last Shore
    
    Kirk also did a map of Ghormenghast that was used in a Worlds of
    Fantasy Calendar from around that time.  I much prefer Kirk's style
    to the Brothers Hildebrandt.  I believe I saw someplace that the
    Hildebrandts use live models suitably costumed as the basis for
    their paintings.  Their stuff is too self-consciously "heroic" for
    my tastes.
    
    I wonder what became of the other 13 paintings Kirk did for his
    thesis.
    
    len.
    
    

    	It just goes to show it takes all types. 
    
    	I *despise* Tim Kirk's calendar.  It looked too unrealistic
    and "cartooney" to me.  
    
    	The H brothers however, paint very realistically and with great
    detail. 
    
    	(Of course, I've always liked the Dutch and Flemish genre painters
    more than I did impressionists so I suppose I'm at least consistent
    in my artistic taste...)
              
    tlh
    

I've been listening to the tape of the LotR, at the Council of Elrond, and I've
got a question. Elrond begins to tell the history of the ring(s) and continues 
it to the time of Isildur's death. Some of this he was a witness to and some of 
it (the death of Isildur and the disappearance of the ring) I believe was 
recounted by one or two of the few survivors of the battle when Isildur died.

However, how did Gandalf learn about the episode of the finding of the One by
Deagol and it's subsequent theft by Smeagol. Did Gollum reveal that story to the
elves after his capture, or did Gandalf discover the truth before Gollum was 
caught, or did Gandalf simply make a lucky guess.

How long before Gandalf's visit to Frodo (during which his suspicions about the 
ring are revealed) was Gollum captured?

Dave

    RE: 301
    
    Gandalf found out about Deagol after many days of interrogating Gollum,
    who was in the elves' custody.  Don't remember the time of the
    interrogation in relation to Gandalf's visit to Frodo. 
    
    Wook

    
     This is Valandil Lambiemdur again.  Sorry I'm late.
     News: I got this GREAT thing about Tolkien's world, a whole set of
    campaign booklets about Middle-Earth.  They are a product of ICE (Iron
    Crown Enterprises) and are basically aimed for role-playing games (real
    fun), but are also really interesting coz they contain all sorts of
    stuff about ME (climate charts, lands beyond Harad, Rh�n and
    Forodwaith, climate charts, detailed plans of Edoras, Dol Amroth, Caras
    Galadon, Ost-in-Edhil, Linhir, trading routes, description of monsters
    and stuff).
     They include:
    	- Bree and the Barrow Downs
    	- Rivendell, the House of Elrond
    	- Havens of Gondor, Land of Belfalas
    	- Riders of Rohan
    	- L�rien and the Halls of the Elven Smiths
    	- Hillmen of the Trollshaws
    	- Cirith Ungol and the Lair of Shelob
    	- Lords of Middle-Earth (vol 1 to 3)
    		vol. 1: Valar, Maiar, Elves
    		vol. 2: Men
    		vol. 3: Dwarves, Hobbits, Orcs, Trolls, Ents, etc.
     	- Isengard and Northern Gondor
    	- Umbar, the City of Corsairs
    	- Moria I
    	- Moria II
    	- Angmar
    	- Ardor
    	- etc.
     They're really well-made.  Of course they've some invention in them
    but they do fit in the Tolkien logic.
    
     Another thing for Eldarendil.  I've developed that rule for Quenya
    plurals.  Here is most of it:
    
    	- Nouns finishing with consonants take -i in the plural.
    		Ex. elen, eleni.
    	- Nouns finshing with vowels:
    		- a: take -r in the plural.
    			Ex. alda, aldar
    		- e: take -i in the plural, except -i�, which takes -ier.
    			Ex. s�le, s�li; enquie, enquier.
    		- o: take -ar, if followed by single consonant.
    		     take -or, if not.
    			Ex. Noldo, Noldor; rauco, raucar.
    		- u: take -ur.
    			Ex. heru, herur.
    
     See you - nam�ri�!
    
    					Valandil Lambiendur Dagnir Terega
    

    
    Back to notes .189-192 and .224...
    
    Regarding the BBC Radio 4 production of Lord of The Rings.
    Has anyone in the US found a distributor for this.   I have
    tried several places (includeing B Dalton's) and no one has
    listing for the BBC production.  They do have the Mind's Eye
    production but thats not the one I want.  I have all the 
    phone numbers from the afore mentioned notes but would like to
    save myself an international call if I can.    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Keith
    

For what it's worth, The Disney Channel will be airing the Rank (no pun 
intended) and Bass version of The Hobbit at 6:00 P.M. this Wednesday. I know, 
I know, I should be shot for promoting such a miscarriage of ...  whatever, 
but every once in a while, what the hey. 

Dave 

    Actually I rather liked that version of the Hobbit.  Smaug is VERY
    intense.  The voices they got for the characters were also very
    good.
    
    Tony

< Note 89.306 by MILVAX::SCOLARO "A keyboard, how quaint!" >
<                                -< YEAH SMAUG! >-
<
<    Actually I rather liked that version of the Hobbit.  Smaug is VERY
<    intense.  The voices they got for the characters were also very
<    good.
    
I previewed my copy on tape last night and I will agree with you about Smaug.
His voice and the way he was drawn WERE good (even had the wings over the center
of gravity .  ;^)  I also think they did a good job on Bard, but who ever heard
of an elven king speaking with a thick German accent?  Also, aren't the elves
supposed to be FAIR to look upon? The only place I've seen Gollum described as 
he was in the film was when one of the Orcs near Cirith Ungol describes Shelob's
"sneak" as looking something like a starved frog. Still, I stayed up till 3:00 
in the morning to watch it, so what do I know?

Dave

P.S. Re .-2, that should have read Rankin and Bass, not Rank. Sorry.

    
    RE: .189-192, .224 and 304...
    
    I'm still trying to find a US distributor for the Lord of the
    Rings on cassette.  I spoke to someone at BBC Enterprises in 
    London.  They gave me the order information for getting it from
    them (which is already in the previous notes).  They said that
    Warner Audio is the US distributor.   Does anybody know who or
    where the Warner Audio offices are?  Is this a division of 
    Warner Brothers?   
    
    If I do have to order it directly from the BBC would anyone care
    to speculate on how the currancy would be handled.  Will they
    accept US money orders???  (I forgot to ask when I talked to them)
    
    I'll continue to pursue this but if anyone has any information or
    suggestions I would greatly appreciate them.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Keith

    Re: .308
    
    Ask them if they take credit cards.
    
    /dana gould/

    O.K. Let me join in this Tolkien conference. I've been searching
    for it for a while and now that I've found it it's going to take
    me a while to read everything. Anybody who loves Tolkien should
    work here. The people who named our nodes certainly did. As you
    can see, I'm working from Shire. We also have Bilbo, Gandalf and
    Frodo. Nothing better to keep you thinking of Tolkien than to have
    to type " >c shire" every day. "You are now entering the world of
    computers and the Middle earth all at once." :-) Once I've been
    through eveything, I'll probably start joining in for some comments,
    and stuff.
    
    Natacha

    When I started for DEC back in '79 in at TWO, we had a HUGE banner
    that ran right along the outside wall of the computer room welcoming
    you to middle earth.  At that time, BILBO, FRODO, etc., were all
    in the PDP-11 line.
    
    Vaxes'll come and go but ole JRR will still be around. :-)
    
    Scott.

Last night, someone made reference to a quote from LotR and we were trying to 
place the speaker and the incident. The quote, third hand, was something like:

	"Go not to the elves for advice for they will say yea and nay."

Anyone have any ideas?

Dave

    Frodo quoted it to Gildor, the elf he met at Woody End.  He had
    asked Gildor for some advice about Black Riders and why Gandalf
    was late.  Gildor gave him some analysis of the problem, some gloomy
    hints, finished by saying the choice was still Frodo's, and said, 
    "It is said, Meddle not in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle 
    and quick to anger."
    
    Frodo's response was, "It is also said, Go not to the elves for
    council, for they shall say both No and Yes."  Gildor was amused.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Somewhere in the BBC tape version of the LotR I recall Gandalf telling someone 
(Pippin, I think) that the Palantiri could not "see" in the dark. Does anyone 
have any idea of where that quote is? I've looked and can't find it. 

I can think of at least a few times that one WAS used at night. 1) When Pippin
first "borrowed" the stone from Gandalf, 2) when Denethor used it, a light was
seen from the tower window at night, and 3) although I'm not sure of the exact
time, when Aragorn communed with Sauron from Helm's Deep. 

Dave

    I do not recall any reference in LotR to palantiri being blinded
    by darkness, but Christopher Tolkien brings this out in one of the
    "archeological" works, "Unfinished Tales," I think.  The rule is
    that  palantiri can see through solid objects but cannot see anything
    unless light falls on it.  Thus, you could use a palantir to find
    out what was happening in a cave far away, but only if there were
    lights in the cave.
    
    When Pippin used it, he saw a star-lit view of the Black Tower,
    presumably as it really was at that moment.  He then saw Sauron
    or at least his eye; this may have been a real visual image or it
    may have been a telepathic image; telepathy was clearly involved
    in that part of the experience.
    
    We do not know what Aragorn saw, only that he encountered Sauron
    and won a battle of wills for control of the palantir.
    
    I remember the light from Denethor's tower, but I don't recall any
    indication that the ligh came from the palantir or was necessarily
    coincident with using it.  When Denethor used it, he saw the Black
    Fleet coming up the Anduin.  Unfortunately, he did not realize it
    was under Aragorn's command.  If it was night when Denethor used
    it, he might still have been able to see by moonlight or starlight.
    
    Or he could have seen the fleet by yesterday's sunlight.  Gandalf
    wonders if he could use the palantir of Orthanc to see back across
    the Sea and the ages to "behold the unimaginable hand of Feanor
    at work."  That would have been back in the First Age.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

<    Palantiri can see through solid objects but cannot see anything
<    unless light falls on it.  Thus, you could use a palantir to find
<    out what was happening in a cave far away, but only if there were
<    lights in the cave.

Why couldn't Sauron have used his Palantir to seek out The Ring and it's bearer?
With such an affinity to the ring, it seems that it shouldn't be too great a
task. 
    
<    Or he could have seen the fleet by yesterday's sunlight.  
    
I don't recall at what time Aragorn set sail up the Anduin, but if it was night
(and the sun sets early in March) how could Denethor see the ships at their 
current position by the light from an earlier time? Also, after having used the 
stone for as long as he did, it seems to me that he would have had a hard time 
bending his will to see anything other than what Sauron wanted him to see.


<    Gandalf wonders if he could use the palantir of Orthanc to see back across
<    the Sea and the ages to "behold the unimaginable hand of Feanor
<    at work."  That would have been back in the First Age.

By extension, do you suppose that the stone could also be used to see into the 
future? No comment.

Dave

    Re .316
    
    The reason Sauron couldn't just dial up the Ringbearer on his palantir
    is that you have to aim the things.  Palantiri show you what lies
    exactly on the far side of the palantir from the viewer.  Sauron
    would have had to find the exact direction of the Ringbearer, and
    then will a focus of exactly the right distance.  Since Ringbearers
    typically kept the Ring hidden all the time, this would add another
    layer of "security."
    
    When I spoke of seeing the ship's by yesterday's light, I meant
    seeing back into yesterday itself.  Sorry for being obscure.  Since
    the sight of the Black Fleet is what drove Denethor to suicide,
    I expect that Sauron DID direct his vision that way.
    
    I don't think Tolkien allowed the palantiri any vision ofthe future.
    If there was any, it would probably have been the shifty, unreliable
    kind offered by Galadriel's Mirror.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    I don't recall there being any reference to the palantiri having any
    particular affinity to the One Ring.  The palantiri were originally
    gifts given by the Eldar of Tol Eress�a to the Lords of Anduni�(?) of
    whom Elendil was the last.  Perhaps it was when Sauron was a hostage in
    Numenor that he first found out about them, though, if the palantiri
    were made by F�anor, then it's possible that he knew about them before
    the poisoning of the trees.
    
    Wook 

<    The reason Sauron couldn't just dial up the Ringbearer on his palantir
<    is that you have to aim the things.  Palantiri show you what lies
<    exactly on the far side of the palantir from the viewer.  Sauron
<    would have had to find the exact direction of the Ringbearer, and
<    then will a focus of exactly the right distance.  

That would have made it very difficult for Pippin to zero in on Barad Dur, 
wouldn't it? Likewise for Denethor.
    
<    When I spoke of seeing the ship's by yesterday's light, I meant
<    seeing back into yesterday itself.  Sorry for being obscure.  Since
<    the sight of the Black Fleet is what drove Denethor to suicide,
<    I expect that Sauron DID direct his vision that way.

I don't believe the fleet was actually sailing "yesterday". Even if Aragorns 
party was on board, they weren't actually doing any sailing, since the wind 
didn't freshen 'till after midnight. (I know, I know, picky, picky, picky. 
Anyway, its just for entertainment, isn't it?)
    
By the way, what became of the slaves "chained to the oars" after the pirates 
etc. abandoned ship and Aragorn came on board? Were they freed, and did they 
join with Aragorn? Or was it a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire?

Dave

    According to Tolkien's notes in "Lost Tales," Pippin was just "lucky"
    to set his stolen palantir down in the proper orientation.  Actually,
    I suspect there was a bit of a spell on that particular palantir,
    making it very likely to get set up for a straight sight to Barad
    Dur; Gandalf felt Pippin was tempted to peer into it from having
    handled it accidentally earlier, and spoke about Saruman having
    been "compelled" to report through the palantir at regular intervals.
    
    Aragorn freed the slaves found in the holds of the ships.  I don't
    recall if any joined in the fighting or not.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

>    The reason Sauron couldn't just dial up the Ringbearer on his palantir
>    is that you have to aim the things.  Palantiri show you what lies
>    exactly on the far side of the palantir from the viewer.

My impression was that the user determined the time and space coordinates
purely by force of will.  (Does it say anywhere that you have to aim them?)
Since Sauron had one in his possession, a very strong will was required to
direct the Palantir to the time and space of your own choice.  Otherwise, you
would see the times and places he wanted you to see.  Yet he could not invent
what the Palantir showed; he could only trick you into believing something by
choosing certain events.

As for finding the ring using the Palantir, there was no special affinity
between the two, as stated in another reply.  Other than trial and error, it
was catch-22.  In order to find it, he had to have known where (and when) to
look.

Jim

< As for finding the ring using the Palantir, there was no special affinity
< between the two, as stated in another reply.  Other than trial and error, it
< was catch-22.  In order to find it, he had to have known where (and when) to
< look.

Ok, try this one on for size. After questioning Gollum, it's obvious that Sauron
knew where and when Gollum last had the ring, and who got it from him. Why not
tune in to that time and place with the Palantir and simply follow Bilbo's
travels? 

Dave

    Another one that always puzzeled me:
    
    If Sauron showed Denethor the Black sailed fleet and knew it to
    be a false image, why didn't he warn his field commanders?
    
    I don't think the palantiri were all that useful for recon.
    
    Why have winged Nazgul recon if you can get the same quality info
    with a palantir?
    
    Tony

    Re .321 (I think)
    
    The rules for aiming palantiri were given in some notes Tolkien
    left, printed posthumously in "Unfinished Tales."
    
    Re .323
    
    Sauron himself may have thought the Black Fleet was sailing up the
    Anduin under his own commanders.  I know of no reason he would think
    otherwise.
    
    Even if he knew, how would he inform his commanders at Minas Tirith?
    The only ways I can think of is couriers or telepathy.  But even
    the fastest courier (a Nazgul on wings) would take time to fly the
    distance.  As for telepathy, Tolkien's rules for telepathy are never
    made clear.  Sauron's fall INSTANTLY demoralized ALL his troops,
    but that might have been a sort of telepathic death-cry, not to
    be repeated.  Long distance telepathy might be exhausting, even
    for Sauron.  And was there anyone at Minas Tirith to receive him?
    I'm not sure any but Nazgul were "atuned" to him, or that there
    were any Nazgul at the battle other than the Witch King, who was
    very busy until he was very dead.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Perhaps the ring did not want to return to SAURON and thus hid the
    ring bearer ?
    

<    Perhaps the ring did not want to return to SAURON and thus hid the
<    ring bearer ?
    
Good point, now that you mention it. Since it was the ring that found Bilbo, 
rather than Bilbo who found the ring (and remember that "last trick of the ring 
before it took a new master") and it was probably the ring that "decided" to 
fall off of Isildur's finger, who is to say that Sauron was ever fated to regain
the ring at all.

Re. telepathy, when the ring finally went into Orodruin, and Sauron fell, wasn't
there a large tower of smoke in the sky (either from Mt. Doom or from Barad Dur)
which the forces of Sauron would have seen? Wouldn't that have been a
demoralizing sight enough for them? 

Dave

    re .324
    
    If the palantiri were aimable and not exhaustable and if I were
    Sauron, I would be continually watching the various pieces of my
    plan during its most critical time.  With continual observation it
    is not concievable that Sauron could not have known about Aragorn's
    capture of the Black Fleet.
    
    As per conveying the information, look at the map.  The distance
    from Barad-Dur (sp, its been a while) through Minas Morgul to Minas
    Tirth (again sp) is far shorter than from "the vales of the Anduin"
    to Minas Tirth.  And messengers do not have to row/sail against
    the current following the stream path, but can fly via the shortest
    path.
    
    Tony

    Re .327
    
    A palantir is exhausting to use, according to Tolkien in "Unfinished
    Tales."  Also, Sauron was also busy attacking Lorien, Mirkwood, and
    Dale, and mustering tributary resources coming in from the east and 
    south.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    What is exhausting for a human may not be exhausting for a Maia
    (sp? - means demi-god)
    
    Honestly, I believe most if not all of Sauron's attention was on
    the attack on Gondor.  Boromir stated and was not challenged that
    if Gondor fell, the rest of middle earth was doomed.  Clearly if
    Souron won at Pelenor and the seige of Minas Tirith, any military
    hope, he** even presence, in the war would have been dashed.
    
    Tony

    Consider that Sauron had to watch two fronts, since there was an attack
    on King Dain Ironfoot and King Brand at Erebor (The Lonely Mountain)
    and Dale at the same time as the Battle of Pelennor Fields.  Also, does
    anyone remember the timing on the assault on Dol Guldur that Galadriel
    led from Lorien? 
    
    Sauron had to keep watch over various fronts, wrestle with Denethor,
    check up on Saruman, and look for the Ring.  He probably also had to
    brief his Nazg�l from time to time.  In short, I think he had his hand
    [sic] full trying to keep up. :-)  Even a demigod can handle so much. 
    
    Re: Ring not wanting to be found.
    
    I beg to differ here.  Sauron was actively calling the Ring to him.
    Even when Isildur was dog-paddling the Gladden, the Ring was wanting to
    get away from him and to return to Sauron, but was too stupid (if
    you'll pardon the expression) to realize that slipping off would only
    land it in the muck for hundreds of years. 
    
    So there it sits trying to get back to Sauron but is able to do nothing
    until D�agol finds it.  Sm�agol kills D�agol and steals the Ring, but
    instead of bee-lining it to Sauron, Sm�agol, now Gollum, goes and hides
    under a mountain.  Another deadend for another few hundred years.
    
    So Bilbo comes along and finally gets it out from under the mountain.
    Then Frodo actually takes it in the direction it wants to go.  It tries
    to reveal itself to the Nazgul at Weathertop and gets stronger and
    happier the closer and closer it gets to Mordor.  All in all. I don't
    think you can make a very good case for it wanting to avoid being found
    by Sauron. 
    
    Elrandir

    Re: .330
    
    By the time of the Battle for Pelenor Sauron knew than Sauruman
    was out of it, Aragorn had used S's Palintir.  The second front
    was just that, a side show.  Win or lose at Erebor was not really
    important, Gondor is key.  Gladriel's attack on Dol Guldur was 
    after the ring was destroyed.
          
    The Nazgul probally was somewhat self guiding.
    
    I really think he should have been paying more attention to that
    fleet!
                                                  
    Tony

    The ring had so much of Sauron's power it did not want to be under
    his control, please remember this is pure speculation, the ring was
    urged to return to Sauron, it avoided him, Gollum, hid it and kept it
    and did not journey to Sauron until he lost it.
    
    Chris

    So what if Saruon DID look at the fleet?  What would he see?  The
    Corsairs of Umbar, enemies of Gondor (and perhaps his own troops
    as well).
    
    So why didn't he look closely?  Well, maybe he did.  Maybe he
    identified Captain Bob of the Umbar Horde.  Maybe he missed Aragorn's
    attack on it.  So when he looks later to check on progress, he thinks,
    "Good.  Captain Bob is going to arrive at just the right time to
    demoralize Gondor."  Remember, Aragorn didn't fly his standard until
    the last minute.
    
    				=ELB=

Remember, the ring did not have a mind; it is not really appropriate to speak
of it "wanting" to do one thing or another.  Its power had an evil influence
over the bearer; but it was not in itself a living entity.  Sauron actively
sought for the ring - his Nazgul were attracted if it was near - but the ring
itself could not seek out Sauron or anyone.

Jim

    No, I think the Ring DID have a mind.  It was spoken of as "deciding"
    to fall off of Isildur's finger.  And who gave to command to Frodo
    to put the Ring on?  Was it a Nazgul?  Or the Ring?  
    
    Sauron put much of his own life energy into the Ring.  It could
    be that because of this it possessed a rudimentary intellect.
    
    				=ELB=

< Remember, the ring did not have a mind; it is not really appropriate to speak
< of it "wanting" to do one thing or another.  

JRRT hinted at the possibility that the ring had a will of it's own when he
wrote of Bilbo's encounter with the goblins after finding the ring...

     "Whether it was a last trick of the ring before it took a new master,
      ...it was not on his finger." 


< His Nazgul were attracted if it was near - but the ring itself could not seek 
< out Sauron or anyone.

At both encounters with the Nazgul, first at Weathertop and later at the bridge
leading to the pass of Cirith Ungol, and also during their first encounter on 
the road to Bam Furlong now that I think of it, Frodo was compelled to put on 
the ring. Whether it was a telepathic message from the Nazgul or a force that 
the ring exerted on the wearer, I don't know.

Dave

re: last several

Since the Ring is being mentioned, I have a 'what if' question.

Sauron had the Nazgul out looking for the Ring.  What would have happened if,
say, the chief Nazgul got hold of it?  Would he REALLY have returned it to
Sauron?  After all, Gandalf and Galadriel were both afraid of taking it for
fear of replacing Sauron as the Dark lord.  Since the chief Nazgul was a
powerful sorcerer in his own right, and since he was already a bit on the
evil side :-), why wouldn't he have claimed the ring and then challenged
Sauron?  It seems he also would have had a very good chance of winning (he
was most likely in on a lot of Sauron's 'secrets' anyway).  So why wouldn't
Sauron have expected treachery from him?


And another...

Why did the Ring go to Bilbo in Gollum's 'cave'.  After all, Orcs went that way
numerous times (well, relatively speaking over the long time Gollum spent there)
Could it not have been found sooner by an Orc?  Was it only 'activated' when the
Dark Lord arose again?  Was that actually when he was in Mirkwood or later when
he actually set up house again in Mordor?

-Joe

    RE: .331
    
    Okay, Erebor probably was a side show, but the point about Aragorn
    having used the Orthanc palantir is interesting. Sauron sees Aragorn
    revealed as Isildur's heir.  Sauron also sees And�ril, which is of
    course his old bane, Narsil, reforged.  Now he's thinking maybe this
    guy has got the Ring, too.  Sauron now expects that Aragorn will go
    straight to Minas Tirith to rally the forces of Gondor.  He certainly
    doesn't think Aragorn will go through the Paths of the Dead to waylay
    the Black Fleet at Pelargir (or was it Umbar?).  He probably couldn't
    even conceive of the notion that the Ring was entering his own land
    for the purpose of being stuffed down the throat of Orodruin.
    
    Who remembers what exactly was going on at Pelennor when the Black
    Fleet was being ambushed by Aragorn and the Army of the Dead?  Could
    Sauron have been preoccupied enough to have missed the battle?  Had the
    Red Arrow been sent to Rohan? (Does anyone remember the Elvish name
    for the Red Arrow?)  Maybe Sauron was worrying about cutting off
    the reinforcements from Rohan.
    
    Wook

    The Nazgul were TOTALLY dominated by Sauron.  Even the powerful
    Witch-King would have taken the thing and calmly dropped it in Sauron's
    hand.  This is stated SOMEWHERE, I think by Gandalf.
    
    I think that the Valar (or Eru) had a hand in Bilbo just "lucking
    out" and finding the One.
    
    				=ELB=

>    No, I think the Ring DID have a mind.  It was spoken of as "deciding"
>    to fall off of Isildur's finger.

Quite right.  I went overboard in saying it was not appropriate to use
personification, since Tolkien uses it himself.  But what of the nature of
the Ring?  I don't think it had its own mind or will; indeed, its will was
that of its maker.  I think of it more as being "programmed" to exert its
evil power in certain ways.

>                                      And who gave to command to Frodo
>    to put the Ring on?  Was it a Nazgul?  Or the Ring?  

It's hard to say, but I think the command was coming from the Nazgul, one of
whom was a powerful sorceror.  The Nazgul may have wanted him to put it on so
that he would enter their world of shadow.  The Nazgul also used other
"spells," like the Black Breath and at the Ford when the leader raised his
hand and Frodo was smitten and passed out, and his sword was broken.

Jim

    This came up in the topic about _Willow_, but has a lot of bearing on
    this topic.  The suggestion was that a live action _Lord of the Rings_
    film could have been done judging from the performances in _Willow_.  I
    heartily agree.  I thought the actor who played Willow would have make
    a great Pippin or even Frodo and Billy Barty would have been perfect as
    the Gaffer.  The actor who played Willows companion could have been an
    acceptable Samwise.  And the little girl who played Willow's daughter
    would have been perfect as little Elanor, Sam and Rosie's first child. 
    
    Any other opinions?
    
    Elrandir (aka Wook) 

    Re .341
    
    I have seen LotR mangled a couple of ways on the screen, and generally
    feel it should not be attempted in any kind of live action -- stage,
    screen, or television.
    
    The thing is so long, that if you MUST attempt a performance, you'd
    best do it as a monumental series or pick a chunk of it, produce
    it as a standalone work, and write some really good introductory 
    material to explain what these midgets etc. are doing.
    
    I don't think real human midgets are a good choice for hobbits.
    The first impression hobbits made on people in the books was that
    of children; children don't look like midgets, at least not most
    kinds of midgets.  Put VERY good child actors in mature-looking
    make-up (but it needn't be too mature), or find very pedomorphic
    adult actors (the way Michael Fox used to look).
    
    Midgets would be a reasonable casting choice for dwarves.
    
    There is an enormous casting problem with elves, in that they are
    consistently described as superhumanly beautiful.  This is another
    reason I don't think a stage production should be attempted.  No
    mortal actress will satisfy enough of the audience in the role of
    Galadriel, for instance.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    
    		I recently attended a performance of Peter Brooks
    	Mahabharata, the indian historical epic. The Mahabharata
    	is 15 times as long as the bible. It has characters ranging	
    	from talking vultures, monkey kings who lift mountains, snakes
    	with ten heads, God himself revealed in full glory, all the
    	way to demons who can make themselves into anything they desire.
    		Brooks used humans only, and it was the best performance
    	of anything I have ever seen.
    		Granted, this play is on a far more abstract plane than
    	is LOTR, but I feel that it could be done.
    
    						sam(17)
     
    
    		

    I have mixed feelings on this one. First of all, I'd LOVE to see LoTR
    done on the screen, providing it was WELL done.  All the previous
    attempts have done is disappoint even the casual JRR Tolkien fan.
    
    On the other hand, I tend to agree with Earl that it would present some
    unique problems in the casting of hobbits and elves.  While I think
    the technology is there to overcome this, I also think there's an
    interpretive problem (beauty IS in the eye of the beholder after all)
    and no matter WHAT you do it won't "match my sweet imagination" when it
    comes to characters like Galadriel or Arwen.
    
    Also, I don't think this should be done as a stand-alone movie.  If
    you're going to do it right it would have to be done either as three or
    four separate movies, or as a TV miniseries.  You'd need a lot of hours
    to present the story right.  And I just wonder if that'd EVER prove to
    be a profitable venture (probably why it hasn't been done right yet).
    
    ... Bob

<    Also, I don't think this should be done as a stand-alone movie.  If
<    you're going to do it right it would have to be done either as three or
<    four separate movies, or as a TV miniseries.  You'd need a lot of hours
<    to present the story right.  And I just wonder if that'd EVER prove to
<    be a profitable venture (probably why it hasn't been done right yet).
    
I agree. Even the BBC dramatization, which ran 13 hours, and which I've listened
to more times than I can remember, had to leave out certain episodes, such as
the visits with Tom Bombadil and the Barrow Wights, which, although are not
essential, are to me a very enjoyable part of the narrative. It is not
sufficient simply to tell the story of the Ring. What makes the story come alive
are the relationships between the characters and the descriptions of the scenes,
the smells and the sounds of Middle Earth. In a movie, you may be able to show
all of the scenery, for example, but, to make an analogy with computers, it
would be in a parallel sense, such that everybody viewing it would see a part of
it but no one person would see the entirety. The book presents the story and the
scenery in a serial sense so that we all have the chance to absorb all the
details at our own pace. 

Dave

    
         I've got a question that I haven't seen addressed yet.  It
    concerns Glorfindel, who rides out from Rivendell to intercept Aragorn
    and the hobbits.  Tolkien has been famed for his painstaking
    consistency, yet there is a great lord Glorfindel who dies in the
    Silmarillion in the battle of the fall of Gondolin.  For the Glorfindel
    of LoTR's to have power against the nine, it is stated that he must
    at one time have come from the blessed realm, ages ago.  Does this
    mean that way back when, there were two lord Glorfindels?
    What's up?
    
    Brian

    Well, I am named Edward.  So is my father.  So is one of my best
    friends.  So is a co-worker.
    
    It could be that Glorfindel is a common elf name, or that the
    Glorfindel of LOTR is a relative of the balrog-slayer.
    
    Or since the Silmarillion was incomplete at the time of JRR's death,
    perhaps he decided to change part of the story and have the Glorfindel
    mentioned in the First Age tales survive after all, but didn't get
    around to changing it.
    
    				=ELB=

    According to various listings of elf-names I have seen compiled
    by Christopher Tolkien and others, these are simply two elves with
    the same name.  There was an elven knight of Tirion and a king of
    Gondor both named Ecthelion, too.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    It just is unusual for him, though.  Only three(?) great houses
    existed over the sea, making any duplication of names seem improbable.
    In the case of Gondor, it wasn't unusual to name kings after other
    people, as I remember.
    
    Brian

    "Only three(?) great houses existed over the sea, making any
    duplication of names seem improbable."  Yes, it was three, the Vanyar,
    the Noldor, and the Teleri.  But they were whole tribes
    or nations of elves.  "Hosts," I think they are called somewhere
    in the Silmarillion.  In any case, I don't see grounds for
    inconsistency here.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    RE: "three great houses"
    
    It could be that the reference here was not to the three races of
    elves, but rather to the three houses of Noldor princes descended
    from Finwe, ie, the Houses of Feanor, Fingolfin, and Finarfin. 
    If so this would limit the number of members.
    
    We do know that the LOTR Glorfindel is descended from the golden-haired
    Finarfin, and I believe that the earlier one was called the "Lord of
    the House of the Golden Flower".  This and the name element "fin"
    for "hair" probably makes him from that line also.
    
    Wook, how about a translation, my elvish has gotten rusty.  What
    does "Glorfindel" mean?  "Glorious-hair-star" or something?
    
    
    				=ELB=
    

    
                     <What's in a name?>
    
    I am a newcomer to SF and have been reading this note for days now.
    
    Can/will anyone translate my name "Vincent" (meaning Conqueror).
    I am fascinated by the insight some of you have gleaned reading
    TLOTR.
    
    Thanks,
    
    To Be Determined 

    Well, "Turgon" means "Powerful Commander" or "Commander of Power".
    
    I'll see if I can come up with something closer.
    
    
    				=ELB=

    
    Thanks.  I started rereading TLOTR again for the umpteenth time
    last night but never with a keener eye.
    
    ELB, I'm looking forward to your next try at my name.
    
    Vince

    In Quenya, the High Elvish tongue, the word "dacil" means "conqueror".
    Gondorian kings were in the habit of adopting royal names with that
    phrase, like Romendacil, literally "East-Victor" after he trashed
    the Wainriders.

    That's "Dacil", pronounced "Dakil".

    The bill is in the mail.
    
    And the name is "Ed".

    				=ELB=

    
    
    Thanks alot Ed!  It will really enhance reading TLOTR with and elvish
    name of my own.
    
    "Ed", hmmm, funny you don't sound elvish!
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Dacil

    RE: "Dacil"
    
    Vincent, what does your last name mean?  Perhaps it could be used to
    enhance your name.  "Dacil" seems a little plain.  Perhaps there is a
    Sindarin equivalent.  I would think that there would be some relation
    to "dagor" or "battle" as well as the root "(c,k)ir" meaning "cut" or
    "cleave". So that "dacil" means "victor" in the sense of cleaving one's
    foes during battle or some such. 
    
    Elrandir (aka. Wook)

    How about Dagordacil (pronounced how?  DaGORdakil?) for "Battle
    Victor".
    
    Well, Ed is really short for "Edhel", which means "elf".   ;-)

    				=ELB=

Just received in the mail yesterday: an offer from the Franklin Heirloom (AKA 
Franklin Mint, etc.) to buy a 22" doll of "Queen Galadriel", the heroine of the 
"Lord of the Rings". Designed by Greg Hildebrandt and licensed by the JRRT 
estate, you can have one for only $280. 

From the copy, I wonder if the ad people ever read the book. It's a nice looking
doll, if you're into those things, but as with much of the Brothers Hildebrandt 
art, it's not exactly as I envisioned her. I wonder if this is the first of a 
series. If so, how about one of my favorite characters, Gollum. Then again, at 
>$200 per, maybe he doesn't have enough appeal. Any other votes? Now taking 
orders B^)=

Dave Busch

    Has anyone noticed that _The_Hobbit_ is 50 years old this year?
    
    There was a pretty good article in the Boston Globe about it last
    Sunday (8/21).
    
    Did you know that the first paragraph of _The_Hobbit_ has become
    so famous as to be included in _Bartlett's_Familiar_Quotations_?
    
    Did you know that JRR once started re-writing the Hobbit to put
    it more in the tone of a serious prequel to LOTR?
    
    The article included as picture of a book cover representing, I
    assume, Durin's Door, with a rune carved frame around the picture.
    Is this the original dust-jacket? 
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    
    FYI:
    
    The Mind's Eye
    Box 6727
    San Francisco, CA 94101
    
    (800) 227-2020
    
    This company is offering cassettes of The Hobbit and The Lord of
    The Rings.  The Hobbit is 6 cassettes in wood-branded gift box.
    The Lord of The Rings is 12 cassettes, also boxed.
    
    Has anyone heard these?  If so, your review and opinion would be
    appreciated.  If the cassettes are good I'd like to buy them.
    (The Hobbit $29.95, TLoTR $59.95).
    
    

    Re: 50th anniversary --
    
    I received a boxed 50th anniversary edition for my birthday this
    June.  It includes some sketches, notes, and I believe 1-2 pages
    of manuscript facsimile in JRR's hand.  It is a very nice edition,
    and I recommend picking it up.
    
    Unfortunately, by some strange happenstance, I had just re-read
    The Hobbit for the first time in years this May...
    
    Brian W.

What was the relationship between Gollum and Shelob? Had they met before (when 
Gollum first escaped Mordor)? Were they actually in cahoots or was Gollum just 
using Shelob for his own ends? Gollum had been refered to as Shelob's "sneak". 
Wouldn't Gollum be in any danger in Shelob's 
lair? 

Dave

    Re .363
    
    Gollum had met Shelob on some previous occasion.  Tolkien doesn't
    say what, but his escape from Mordor is a good guess.  She was,
    as far as the narrative tells, just a very nasty animal; Gollum
    knew that all she would do would be to kill and eat the hobbits,
    discarding any clothes and ... jewelry they might be wearing.  Some
    orcs referred to Gollum as Shelob's "sneak," but there is no indication
    he ever really ran errands for her on command.  Yes, he'd be in
    danger in her lair.  But the mad little creature might not realize
    that, or reckon it of any importance.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    I believe that in her origin, Shelob was a [great-great-grand?]daughter
    of Ungoliant, the Unlight demon of the First Age that with Morgoth's
    help poisoned the Two Trees.  Thus, there is a bit of divine blood
    in her.
    
    I think she was the mother of the Mirkwood spiders.
    
    I'm not sure where I remember this from, but it sounds good.  ;-)
    
    				=ELB=

The narrative of the BBC tapes refers to Shelob as "the last child of
Ungolliant". It also states that "...whether or not she was killed, or simply
returned to her lair to nurse her malice, this tale does not tell." (not exactly
in those words). In other words, she may still be lurking out there. 

It's interesting that JRRT included the spiders of Mirkwood and Shelob in his 
cast of "baddies". Probably had something to do with the fact that he was 
bitten, or had a frightening experience with a spider when he was very young. I 
think his family was living in South Africa at the time.

Considering that spider silk is among the strongest (tensile) substances known 
to man, I wonder if perhaps the elven ropes given to the travelers in Lorien 
might not have been made of the stuff? 

Dave

There was also a sentence or two in, I believe, The Return of the King, to the
effect of

	"...Earlier Gollum had bowed down and worshipped her..."

I suspect that this had happened during the time Gollum and the hobbits were
travelling east along the Morgul road, after they had crossed the glowing bridge
and witnessed the march from Minas Morgul. The hobbits fell asleep on a landing
of the narrow stairs, and Gollum continued upwards to Shelob's lair. I
distinctly remember that when Gollum came back, he saw the hobbits asleep
there, and he felt a kind of affection for them, and pawed at Frodo's knee,
thus wakening the ever-vigilant Sam.

Ron

    Anbody else find it as curious as I do that while Tolkien depicts
    spiders and wolves as bad guys, I don't recall any snakes being
    cast as heavies anywhere in The Hobbit or LotR.
    
    len.
    

    True, there are no snakes on stage, but "worm," "serpent," and "viper"
    are used as terms of abuse, and the Haradrim are led under a red
    banner with a black serpent (or was it the other way around?).
    
    Everyone has their pet pests.  Lovecraft, for some reason, seemed
    to hate frogs; lots of his monsters turned out to be nothing much
    more than giant carnivorous frogs.  Personally, I'd use ticks.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Tolkien used "worm" for certain dragons, Smaug among them.  Wasn't
    there a snake in Mordor?  I forget.  I'm pretty sure that there
    were no truly snake-like major beasties, besides dragons.
    
    Wook

Gandalf refers to Grima as a snake when he denounces him in front of Theoden. He
says "...down on your belly...here is a snake...you can't safely take him with 
you nor can leave him behind..."

Later, at Isengard, Saruman is called a serpent (I think by Theoden) with a 
forked tongue.

At the battle of the Pellenor fields, one of the enemy (Harradrim?) is carrying
a banner with a red serpent on it.

At one point, Sam exclaims "...snakes and adders...". I think it is when they 
first see Gollum climbing face down the cliff just before they capture him.

Then there is the guardian in the pool outside the gates of Moria. To the 
travellers, it is not quite clear whether the creature(s) is in fact many snakes
or one being with many tentacles. 

Then, there's the scene when Indy is trapped in a crypt which is crawling with 
snakes of all sorts...but that's another story. ;^)

Dave

  Yes, yet another newcomer to this note.  I've been reading all the entries
in this note for while.  But now that I've at least looked at all of the entries
and read (and enjoyed reading) most of them, it's time to add some of my own.
So here goes.

- Question -
   The only thing that I'm not sure about that really bothers me, deals with the
three elven rings.  As far a I know, Sauron never laid a hand (or finger) on any
of them but he designed the one so that it would have power over them.  I would
imagine that when the one was destroyed, far from losing their own powers, the
three would liberated, leaving the elves better off than when the one was only
missing.  Does anyone have a good explanation why they lost thier power instead
of regaining thier freedom?

- Art -
   A little while ago there was a discussion about 'Lord of the Rings art'.  I
also happen to dislike the brothers Hildebrandt.  Is anyone out there familiar
with Frank Frazetta's work though.  He really doesn't do much LOTR art (more
fantasy in general) but one picture which sticks out in my mind is called "The
Death Dealer" and always reminds me of (and I think is intended to be) one of
the Nazgul riding a dark steed.  Wether or not it is intended to be a Nazgul,
the painting and most of his work in general is excellent.

- Music -
   Does anyone out there enjoy listening to music while reading?  I know I do.
In fact I think the proper music playing in the background can really enhance
the story.  I have read LOTR a number of times (not as many as most of you most
likely) My favorite music to listen to while reading it is Jethro Tull's "Songs
from the Wood."  In fact, The second time I read it, I had that album playing
for almost every page (that's a lot of repetitions of the album).  I think the
two go together perfectly.  In fact, sometimes now when I listen to "Songs From
the Wood" it conjures up images from LOTR in my head.  Especially the song
'Pibroch (cap in hand)' which always reminds me of the Battle on the Pelenor
Fields.  Anyway, the gist of all this is, I would like to know if any of you
have favorite music to read LOTR by.  If you don't generally listen to music
while reading, I hope you will give it a try.

- JJ (Jonathan)

    Welcome, welcome, JJ.
    
    How can I resist a question about my very favorite LOTR items: the
    Three!
    
    My suspicion:

    In several cases there is mention of a person's vital energy going into
    his creation: Sauron and the One, Morgoth and the things he made, and
    I'm sure a couple of others.  The implication is that the semi-divine
    types can get tied down to one form, lose a great portion of their
    power expending it in the Mortal World, and all that.  It seemed that
    the Balrogs and Saruman were diminished for desiring power in the
    Mortal World, and for using their semi-divine power to get it.

    Also, the Three could not be made without knowledge gained from Sauron
    by Celebrimbor, the chief elven smith even though Sauron never touched
    them.
        
    When the One got nuked, Sauron got scattered to the four winds, his
    vital energy dispersed.  Things that he made, such as the Barad Dur,
    fell to pieces.  I would propose that all things connected with
    Sauron, even things made with his knowledge, also were diminished.
    
    Thus, the Three became pretty baubles.
    
    Anybody buy that, or have a better idea?
    
    
    				=ELB=

    Re .372 & .373
    
    My impression was that the chief function of the One was to control
    the Three, Seven, and Nine, all other functions being peripheral.
    Sauron would have been able to seize control of the Bearers of the
    Three had they not slipped off their rings the moment Suaron first
    put on the One.  So the One had a certain potential for power over
    the Three even though Sauron never touched the Three.
    
    I also have a dim memory of an ambiguous remark by Gandalf or the
    narrator, implying that the Three (created according to Sauron's
    guidelines, after all) had deliberately designed-in triggers to
    go dead if the One was destroyed.
    
    The main advantage the Three had was that they were not intrinsically
    evil and did not immediately start seducing your soul, the way the
    One, the Seven, and the Nine did.  Or so I thought.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    
    When SAURON's ring was destroyed I though he became a shadow of his
    former self and lost much of his former power.
    
    Also I seem to remember GANDALF saying somthing to the effect "the
    evil will return at some stage "
    
    Chris
    
    

    Celebrimbor became aware of Sauron's intentions when Sauron spoke the
    spell that empowered the One and placed it on his finger, so it seems
    that the link between the One and the Three is two-way to some degree.
    
    If someone with a strong enough will were to put on the One, that
    person would become aware of all the other rings and the thoughts of
    their owners.  All the works done by those rings would be revealed to
    the wearer of the One. (Or at least that's what my memory tells me.)

    Also recall the words of the spell:
    
    "One Ring to rule them all.  One Ring to find them.
     One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
    
     In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie."
    
    It seems that the spell that invested the One with so much of Sauron's
    power also changed the very nature of the other rings of power.  The
    One was created to control the other rings, to locate them and to bind
    them.  By determining what the nature of the binding is, we could
    perhaps find out why the Three lost their power instead of being freed. 
    
    I'd need to check the books for references, but our other resident
    loremasters I'm sure will have plenty to say. :-)
    
    re: 375
    
    I believe Sauron became a shadow of his former self with the loss of
    his ring to Isildur.  He could no longer assume a form pleasing to the
    eye after his body was broken during the Fall of Numenor (see the
    Akallab�th or in Quenya Atalant�).  After that, his spirit fled back to
    Middle Earth to gradually reform.  After the Last Alliance of Men and
    Elves laid seige to Barad-dur we don't know much about what happened to
    Sauron's body, though we do know that he eventually came back as the
    Necromancer of Dol Guldur.  After the One was destroyed his spirit was
    dispersed and I would presume banished to the "outer darkness" where
    Morgoth is hold up until the final battle ie. Armageddon.
    
    As far as Gandalf saying the "the evil will return..." I think he means
    that the evil that Sauron bred still exists in the world and will
    return to cause suffering for humankind.  Thus as Sauron who was of
    lesser stature than Morgoth rose up after his master's defeat, so too
    will some Orc chieftain gain enough power to cause trouble for the
    combined kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor.  My prophesy so to speak.
    Or perhaps, it will be some easterling tribe or the Haradrim.
    
    BTW,  I think my brain is going, but what is the name for the combined
    north and south kingdom after Aragorn was crowned?
    
    Nam�ri�,
    
    Wook "Elrandir"

    They called it the "Reunited Kingdom", I believe.
    
    And you're wrong.  The Mouth of Sauron will be the next Dark Lord.
    Bet'cha!  	;-)
    
    				=ELB=

I have a question about the one ring.

Why didn't the ring appear to effect the Numenorians.

Sauron was taken to Numenor before the fall and he apparently still wore 
the one ring.

What was the ring's power?

Was it just over the 3, the seven and the nine (where are the five?)?

What enabled the numenorians to resist it?

Indeed, why didn't they take it form Sauron and destroy it?

I am sure most of these cannot be answered, because although I am 
somewhat widely read on Tolkien, I don't ever remember discussion of 
these items.

Tony

    On second thought, the next Dark Lord might instead be one of the Blue
    Wizards.
    
    				=ELB= 

    re .378
    
    Somewhere in the Akallabeth after Numenor was trashed, there is
    a comment to the effect that Sauron "returned to Mordor where he
    again took up his Ring."  I believe that he left it in Middle Earth
    while he vacationed in Numenor.
    
    				=ELB=

    One of the Blue Wizards was a follower of Orome, the other (Pallando,
    I think) was either a follower of Orome or of Mandos (it seems that
    JRR was himself undecided at the time).  Since both wore the same
    color, I would suspect they both came from the same Valar.
    
    But there is one more thing that we know about the Blue Wizards:
    they failed in their mission.  It is explicitly stated that Gandalf
    was the only one who succeeded.  Even Radagast (a good enough fellow)
    failed in that he became obsessed with birds and beasts, and not
    the Free Peoples.
    
    				=ELB=

    re: .380
    
    Sauron probably stashed the One just before he surrendered to the
    Numenorean Armada.
    
    re: .377 & .379
    
    I agree that the "Mouth of Sauron" is a good candidate for the next
    rise of evil, (in fact I think I may have even mentioned it before
    in a previous reply) but Alatar and Pallando aka the Blue Wizards
    or "Ithryn Luin" are difficult to judge because they are so obscure.
    We hardly know anything about them other than that were representatives
    of Orom� if memory serves me correctly and that they passed into
    the east and were never seen again.
    
    Elrandir

    re: .382
    
    Darn!  I just posted a correction to my reply .381 and found your
    reply.  Oh, well.  It'll teach me to double check my info before
    posting.  (Been burned by that a couple of times in this topic!)
    
    A previous reply around .250 states that Curumo (ie. Saruman) went
    into the east with Alatar and Pallando, but only Curumo returned.
    
    Wook

>    I agree that the "Mouth of Sauron" is a good candidate for the next
>    rise of evil, 

Why?  What actions of his depicted any great evil or power?  Wasn't he simply
a messenger (that is the impression I had gotten) aka Mouth?  Seems he was too
intimidated by Gandalf and Aragorn to become the Dark Lord; he just did not
seem to fit the qualifications (imagine writing the resume for the job, tho :-)).

-Joe

    Well, the Mouth of Sauron WAS a powerful sorcerer, and he was the
    Lieutenant of the Barad-Dur.  That should amount to SOMETHING.  It was
    also stated that he had magically extended his life, until he was so
    old that he had forgotten his true name (I think he was faking it;
    everyone KNOWS that wizards don't reveal their true names ;-). 
    
    His final fate was never mentioned.  
    
    As I said, the next Dark Lord should be either the Mouth or one of the
    Blues.  There simply isn't anyone else with enough magical energy
    around in the Fourth Age to do it.  Morgoth is gone.  Sauron is gone.
    The Nazgul are gone.  Saruman is gone.  Radagast is not nasty enough. 
    
    				=ELB=

    This whole discussion of who will be the next evil power to rise
    in Middle Earth points to a related question:
    
    What are some possible scenarios for further adventures in Middle
    Earth?
    
    I for one would like to read about the last days of Gimli and Legolas.
    I also think that it would be interesting to see what would happen
    if someone found one of the missing palantiri.
    
    The stone at Minas Tirith shows only burning hands unless you have
    great will.  The Orthanc stone is in Elessar's possession. The stone in
    the Elf towers west of the Shire are oriented only towards Valinor.
    These are the ones that are accessible.
    
    One went down in the Ice Bay of Forochel, another is the main stone at
    Osgiliath which is on the bottom of Anduin. There's also the Morgul
    stone which may or may not have been destroyed in the downfall of
    Barad-Dur.  These are the ones I know are lost.  That's six stones.
    Trouble is there are seven stones.  Does anyone remember where the
    seventh stone is?  (This is probably in this topic already, I just have
    to find it. :-) 
    
    What is your adventure idea?
    
    Wook

    TWO stones were lost with King Arvedui at Forochel: the Annuminas
    Stone and the Weathertop Stone.  He snatched them up when he was
    fleeing the destruction of his kingdom of Arnor.

    As far as scenarios, how about some dweeb finds the Morgul Stone
    in the ruins of Barad-Dur, and Sauron starts instructing him
    (controlling him?).  It could easily be the Mouth, as I suspect
    that he knew where the Palantir was located.
        
	    			=ELB=

    There migh even be some rings of power left.  Not, to be sure, the
    One, Three, Seven, or Nine.  But Gandalf made passing mention of
    other such rings, made by the elven-smiths, that did not lengthen
    life and were much less powerful than serious Rings of Power, "but
    still dangerous for mortals, I deem."  Being small fry, they might
    not have been included in the destruction of the One.
    
    As for powerful people, other notes have mentioned the Mouth and
    the Blue Wizards and Radagast.  Elrond's sons, Elros and Elrohir,
    succeeded to the rule of Rivendel after their father sailed West,
    and Celeborn came to live in Rivendell after Galadriel left.  Tom
    Bombadil and Goldberry are still there in the Old Forest, as is
    Old Man Willow.  There might also be some left-over Barrow Wights
    and Goldberry's mysterious mother, the River-woman.  There's a whole
    elf-kingdom in the Greenwood (formerly Mirkwood), plus the Ents.
    
    Plenty of raw material there.  The road goes ever on and on.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

  The wizards had to check their Mayar powers at the door before being
  allowed to visit Middle Earth.

  -- Bill B.

    Re .391
    
    The Blue Wizards could presumablly be nearly as powerful as Saruman,
    who was first of the order but in qualitatively the same position.
    Even Radagast, the most minor wizard we hear of, was "a master of
    changes of shape and hue."
    
    By the way, Tolkien occasionally hints that there may have been
    more than five wizards, the Five being just the leading members
    of the order.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Re:< Note 89.390 by ATSE::WAJENBERG "Make each day a bit surreal." >
>    There migh even be some rings of power left.  Not, to be sure, the
>    One, Three, Seven, or Nine.  But Gandalf made passing mention of
>    other such rings, made by the elven-smiths, that did not lengthen
<    life and were much less powerful than serious Rings of Power, "but
<    still dangerous for mortals, I deem."  Being small fry, they might
>    not have been included in the destruction of the One.
    
There are definately more rings.

Didn't Suroman (Definately sp), make one and show it to Gandalf when he 
trapped him in Isengard?  

BTW where did that one go?

And in a world of reduced magic, even lesser rings would assume 
monstrous poprortions.

As per who would be the chief evil (or source of excitement to us) in 
the fourth age, it would be hard to say, but I believe two possiblities 
are apparent.  A Black Numenorian, as the Mouth of Sauron (but I think 
not him, for he is a man and will perhaps soon die after Sourion's 
death), may unify the Kingdoms of Harad, the Coursairs, etc.  Another, 
more interesting possibility is that a Balrog with interest beyond 
terrorizing Moria may be unearthed.  Didn't Morgoth have something like 
1000 Balrog's?  I am sure many were unaccounted for and each would be 
very powerful in the 4th age.

Tony

When I was a kid, I had a funny idea of what Heaven was like, you know, clouds 
made of cotton candy, walls and furniture made of chocolate, old folks sitting 
around playing chess, etc. I can't divorce myself from those early images when
thinking of what the "after-life" might be like for Frodo and Bilbo after they
sail into the West. What do you suppose they actually DO wherever they are go-
ing to. Also, where do they go from there. Arwen, when giving Frodo the jewel,
says that if his pain is too much to bear, he can pass into the West until all
his wounds are healed. What then?

Did Aragorn and Arwen have any offspring to carry on the line of the kings?

If Elves and Dwarves are the first and second born of the races of Middle Earth,
when did the Ents enter into the picture? Gandalf? Tom Bombadil?

There are a number of instances of special or significant trees in the LotR.
These include the Two Trees (don't remember their names), Fangorn, Old Man 
Willow, the Mallorn (Mallyrn?) trees in Loth Lorien and later in The Shire, the 
White tree in the court of the fountain in Gondor and Nimloth the Fair(?) as 
well as the Party tree in The Shire. There are also numerous descriptions of 
trees throughout the story, such as the holly at the gate to Moria, the 
gateposts of Treebeard's home, etc. What are some of the other references to 
trees of interest, and why did trees in general hold such fascination for JRRT?

Re.- a few: In a sequel, I would like to see the Ents finally have a
reconciliation with the Entwives. Of course, that would mean that there would 
still be Ents at large in the world today, thus diminishing somewhat the magic 
and mystery for us.

Dave

re .394  > and why did trees in general hold such fascination for JRRT?

    Isn't "the Tree" a common mythic symbol?  The Tree on which
    Christ was crucified, the Bo Tree beneath which the Buddha
    meditates, the Tree of Life, the tree in Norse mythology
    which sits at the center of the world (or has roots going
    down to same, I forget which)...possibly represents the
    connection between the world-as-we-see-it and the hidden,
    spiritual world where one draws power/life/sustenance from
    Mother Earth?

    -- Linda

    Elessar and Arwen had one son: Eldarion who was king after his father,
    and a number of daughters who aren't named.
    
    
    The order (I think) that the races came into being were:
    
    1	Elves (with the kindling of the brightest stars)
    2	Orcs (which Morgoth bred from captured elves)
    3	Ents (who the Elves awoke)
    4	Dwarves (unless you count Aule's mistake)
    5	Men (With the first rising of the Sun)
    6	Hobbits (a form of Man?)

    I'm not sure when Trolls were made, probably after Ents.  

    Still, the Elves are the Firstborn children of Illuvatar (God) and
    the Men the Secondborn.

    
    				=ELB=

    The thing to notice with the titles of Elves and Men is First- and
    Second-born of *Iluvatar.*  Only these two races are direct creations
    of Iluvatar.  Dwarves were created by Aule; Ents by Yavanna; the
    talking Eagles by Manwe; the Orcs and Trolls by Morgoth.
    
    In Tolkein's eschatology, everybody goes West eventually.  Typically,
    elves do it in the body, while everybody else goes only in spirit.
    The elves just Live Happily Ever After; even if they were slain
    by violence and arrive without bodies, they eventually acquire new
    ones.  Dwarves wait it out in the Halls of Mandos until Doomsday.
    Men (and presumably Hobbits, who are a sub-race of ours it seems)
    tarry for a while in the West, then "pass beyond the circles of
    the world."  The Ringbearers are in the unusual position of arriving
    bodily and, eventually, passing on beyond the circles of the world.
    Tolkien is careful not to give any more details about this "beyond."
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Trolls were made in mockery of the Ents (according to Treebeard)
    by the enemy (presumably Mogorth).
    
    Bonnie

    RE .396
    
    >> 3   Ents (who the elves awoke)
    
    I think I remember reading that the ents were either the creation of
    Yavanna (as previously noted) or were created by Illuvatar at her
    request.  This occurred after Aule created the dwarves, when Yavanna
    perceived that they would be builders and therefore a threat to her
    beloved trees.  The dwarves were subsequently put back to sleep till
    some later time, and therefore the ents were considered the older of
    the two races.
    
    Treebeard noted that the elves taught speech to the ents and taught
    them the lists.
    
    ... Bob

    (I couldn't resist creating the 400th reply!)
    
    The order that I listed the races back in .396 was the order that
    they became active in Middle Earth (as near as I could discern).
    If you want to be technical, both the Dwarves and Ents predate the
    Elves, but they weren't active until after the Firstborn.  Of course,
    Elves and Men were PLANNED in the Music, before any other race.
    
    When I said that the Elves awoke the Ents, I did not mean to imply
    that they created them.
    
    				=ELB=

    RE: Ents and Elves
    
    The Elves gave the Ents the desire to speak, but the Ents had a speech
    all their own.  Often the Ents used the elvish language, but in their
    own unhasty way.  Also, I rather thought that the Elves woke the trees
    to learn their language and not the Ents, but I'm not firm on this.
    
    RE: the Music
    
    Remember that the Music had three themes: the first was taken up by the
    Ainur who added their variations until Melchor began his dissonance. 
    The second theme was a response to that discord and somehow transformed
    the discord into even more beautiful music.  When Melchor redoubled his
    discord, Iluvatar began his third theme, and in this theme, Iluvatar
    sang alone.  It is said that the Ainur did not comprehend the third
    theme and it is here that Iluvatar conceived his children.  It is also
    why the actions of the children of Iluvatar are such a mystery to the
    Valar who had no part in their making.
    
    I presume that the Eagles, conceived during a mingling of the themes of
    Manw� and Yavanna were part of the variations on the first theme and
    that the dwarves were part of the first or second.  I think it is clear
    that Elves and Humans are responses to Melchor or should we say Morgoth
    at this point.
    
    It would be interesting to compare the chronology of the Music with the
    history of Arda.
    
    Nam�ri�,
    
    Elrandir (aka. Wook who's been at AI school for two months)

Re:< Note 89.401 by 57897::LEE "Wook... Like 'Book' with a 'W'" >

I could be real confused about this, but:

>    I presume that the Eagles, conceived during a mingling of the themes of
>    Manw� and Yavanna were part of the variations on the first theme and
>    that the dwarves were part of the first or second.  I think it is clear
>    that Elves and Humans are responses to Melchor or should we say Morgoth
>    at this point.
    
Didn't the music all happen well before the creation?

If so Aule(????and sp?) definatly made the dwarves AFTER the third 
theme, they were to be in praise of the children.

I would assume the eagles also were AFTER the third theme.

Tony

    Tony,
    
    My understanding is that the history of Arda is simply the Music of the
    Ainur given form and substance by the will of Iluvatar.  What is
    created in Arda was conceived during the Music.
    
    Wook

	Sorry to interrupt, but I have this problem. I am writing an essay
    on Tolkien's myths, and I am trying to translate cold-drake into
    Quenya.
     I have tried Ringl�ki, based on Urul�ki (which means heat-lizard or
    hot-drake), but if anyone had any suggestions, please mail to
    VISA::GEOFF2.
    
    
    
    						Thanx
    
    
    
    

             I have, for the same reasons, another translation problem:

             In Tolkien's cosmology, there are three elements, corresponding to
           the three Silmarils and the three elven rings. These elements are:

              1) Air (= vilya)

              2) Water (= nen)

              3) Fire/earth (= n�r/*???*0)

             The earth bit is my problem, what does earth as matter sound like
           in Quenya? "Cemen" is the earth as opposed to "menel", the heavens
           and "arda" is the planet earth, but what's the element earth?

             Any suggestions to VISA::GEOFF2

             Thanx

I'd be interested in learning the origins of the names of various characters in
Tolkein's works. Some of them are obviously made up (although what looks like a
made up name to me may in fact have some historical background) but others, such
as Gandalf, have their roots in Norse, Icelandic or some other national
mythology. What inspired me to pose this question is that the other day I heard
on the radio that Beorn (sp?) was Danish (?) for "Bear", which in the context of
"The Hobbit" makes perfect sense. 

Are there similar explanations for such characters as Galadriel and other elven 
folk, Dwarvish names, Ents, Hobbits, creatures (eg. Smaug) etc? What is the 
origin of "Dwimmerlaik"? Niggle? Gwaihir?

Please don't be limited to the names I've suggested. I'd like to hear about as 
many as you're willing to explain.

Dave

    ALL the Dwarven names, except "Gimli," are the names of dwarves in the
    Norse Eddas.  "Gimli" is the name of a hall in Asgard.
    
    "Dwimmerlaik" means, roughly, "illusion of evil magic" and is something
    old and Germanic, I forget what.  Most of the odd words used by the
    Rohirrim are old German or Old English.  For instance, their name for
    hobbits, "holbytla," means "hole-builder," but, in Tolkien's imaginary
    linguistic history was worn down to "hobbit."
    
    The names of hobbit towns and families are compounded (with
    considerable wit and artistry) from the elements found in real English
    place and family names.
    
    The elven names are almost entirely made-up, although when Tolkien
    calls God "Iluvatar" and then translates this as "Allfather," it's hard
    to believe him when he breaks this into the evish roots "iluv" and
    "atar" when it looks so much like "ilu" and "vatar."
    
    For a comprehensive treatment of Tolkien's names, I recommend the book
    "The Languages of Middle Earth," by Ruth Noel.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

I've just finished reading all the replies to this note - took me
over 2 days to do that!  Nice to know I'm not the only person who
enjoys LoTR!.

I found most of the notes interesting, but got a bit lost in the
more esoteric (??correct spelling) bits.  To me, LoTR is, quite
simply, just a darn good story - each time I read it I get lost
in Tolkein's superbly descriptive narrative, especially towards
the end of the book when Merry and Pippin get captured by the
orcs, meet the Ents and Frodo and Sam finally enter Mordor (plus
all the other bits in between).

Maybe I'm a bit simple (:^)), but I just don't want to read any
more into the book than JRRT initially intended - it was written
around WWII and that must have influenced his style, but I don't
think he ever meant it as any more than a folk tale, even though
it was on a rather grand scale.

I've read LoTR 8 times now (every odd-numbered year since 1973),
so I suppose I'm due for another re-reading this year.  I know
I'll find something else in it that I missed the first 8 times,
but that's the beauty of the book - it's different each time you
read it.

As a complete aside from all this serious stuff, I've read LoTR in
4 different countries on 3 different continents:
	Melbourne, Australia in 1973,
	Leicester, England in 1975, 77, 79, 81 and 83,
	Kingston, Jamaica in 1985, and
	Toronto, Canada in 1987 (soon to be 1989 as well).
Can *anybody* beat that???!!!

	Peter B.

    Anyone out there as bothered as I am by this year's Tolkien calender.
    I got one for Christmas, and from looking at the first two pictures
    (the Haven at Morionde and the Fall of Gondolin) I get the impression
    that the artist didn't even bother to read the book.  The depiction
    of the elf in the first entry doesn't look ANYTHING like I'd imagine
    from JRRTs description.  And WHERE did he get the idea for mechanised
    dragons in the fall of Gondolin??
    
    Don't know who the artist was, but I've definitely seen better.
    
    Incidentally, I also feel they did a poor job with the cover art
    on the latest paperback version of LOTR.  Frodo more like a short
    fat human than anything I'd think of as a hobbit.  And Aragorn doesn't
    look anything like the dark, hardened ranger described in the book.
    Haven't seen a less accurate portrayal of a well-known character
    since I looked at an illustrated version of the Catholic Bible.
    
    ... Bob

    Has anyone read the new release from Christopher Tolkien? It is
    apparently the "first draft" of _The_Fellowship_of_the_Rings_.
    The title is something like "The Return of the Shadow" or "The Shadow
    Returns".
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    
    Ballantine Books ought to be ashamed of themselves.  They didn't even
    change the art credits in the front matter!  Those gosh-awful cover
    paintings are credited to Tolkien!
    
    Gack!  Such sloppiness!
    DFW

	"Return of the Shadow" is Christopher's decyphering and
	commentary of the various drafts of "The Fellowship of
	the Ring".  I haven't finished it yet, but it's interesting
	to see how the story and character developed.

    I too, just recently found this notes topic, and have enjoyed reading
    others praises to my unparalled favorite series of all time.  After
    ten or so readings, I only have one wish...
    
    		that I could forget everything about them so I
    		can rediscover them again!
    
    But, no-can-do.  Oh well, guess I'll just pretend.
    
    Cheers!
    
    Forrest.
    
    

    Re .413
    
    I understand the desire to have over again the thrill of the first
    reading, but I hope you will find, as I did, that there are other
    pleasures that belong specially to RE-reading.
    
    For one thing, you begin to appreciate Tolkein's "architectural" skills
    more thoroughly, and in more detail.  You notice patterns in the plot
    and systems in the setting that you missed on first reading.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    
    Re .414
    
    Oh believe me, each time I've reread the LOTR I've found something
    new.  Some of the foreshadowing that Tolkien provides goes unnoticed
    unless you know what will happen to the character.  Also, characters
    that at first, appear purely evil, turn out to be somewhat likeable
    chaps who just got caught up in a bad situation. (i.e. Gollum).
    
    Also, the council of Elrond is probably one of the hardest parts
    to wade thru as a first-timer, but thoroughly enjoyable once you
    understand its significance, and its references to the past.
    
    As you see, no knock to rereading the series, but the first time
    for everything (well, never say everything) is usually the best.
    
    Forrest.

Re .415

I'm currently considering a re-reading of the LOTR, Hobbit, and Silmarillion
right now.  It's been a while since I was active here, but life gets busy on
occassion.  Welcome and good noting.  Does anyone know where I can get a copy 
of _Languages of Middle Earth_?

Wook (aka Elrandir Eldarendil)

    Thank you. I have spent most of a Saturday at work reading the 
    notes in this conference. Not only has it done my heart good to
    see people discussing LoTR again but it is great to see people
    who share my view of the "animators" at Rank-n-Crass.
    I loved the book "The Last Unicorn" also.
    
    George
     

    re.225
    How about the Death of Theoden, as he said goodbye to Merry(?).
    George

    RE.274
    Darrell K. Sweet-the artist who's subjects schnozzes rival those
    of the Bros. Hildebrandt?
    I may be commercial, but I really like Micheal Whelan's works-
    especially any illustrations he has done for C.J.Cherryh or Julian
    May. I enjoy looking for his signet in his art.
    George
     

    re:.419
    
    That may well be true for the Tolkien covers (which I don't have
    copies of), but not true in general.
    
    When Whelan is at his peak, he's astounding, but for the most part,
    I find his work uninspiring. The only one of his Cherryh covers
    I really enjoyed was for THE GATE OF IVREL. In fact, I came very
    close to buying the original at an sf convention. I ended up spending
    the money on a Wendy Pini original instead (and one that hasn't
    yet worn on me, which I think the Whelan might've done after a while).
    
    --- jerry

    Jerry,
         I agree that Whelan's work for the Morgaine Novels are
    among his best(including "Exile's Gate) and that some of his
    works are "listless". I also think that he is one of the very 
    few fantasy artists today who could draw a Tolkien elf with
    the proper "otherworldly" beauty.
         Met Richard Pini once at Atlanta Fantasy Fair a few years
    back. I was working on staff-remind me to tell you of the marriage
    he performed at the "Dead Dog" party. 
    
    George

re.225 & .418

<    How about the Death of Theoden, as he said goodbye to Merry(?).

Also, the death of Thorin. There were quite a few notable characters present, 
including Thorin (of course), Bilbo, Gandalf, and probably Bard, Beorn and the 
Elven King, although I'm not quite sure of the last three. Might even include 
the Arkenstone.

Dave

I'm in the process of trying an unusual experiment.  I'm reading the Hobbit in 
chucks of time corresponding to the timeline of the story.  I'm also 
synchronizing according to the season.  At this point, I'm in Rivendel staying
with the elves in Elrond's house and in the meantime, I'm reading stories from
the Silmarillion and other antebellum (from the stories perspective) tales until
midsummer's eve when I and the rest of the party will be meeting with Master
Elrond to get his counsel for the rest of our journey.

Of course it means I read at a nearly unbearable pace, but I like being able to 
just step outside to get a flavor of what the weather might have been like.  It
also gives me a better sense of the waiting involved in a lot of these stories.
It also means I don't blow through the book in one sitting either! :-)

I'm hoping to do the same with the trilogy (without the wait in between of 
course, otherwise I'll be well out of my irresponsible tweens and not prone to
go off adventuring!)  

"If anyone would wish to join me, I'd welcome anyone who would be a merry 
companion or good in a scuffle.  (We've already had one run in with a trio of 
rather nasty trolls.)

"Perhaps I should keep some sort of journal.  I suppose I shall call it, 'There
and back again (one would hope)'.  Well, perhaps not.  I don't suppose I shall 
call it anything until it's finished.

"Well, enough for now.  There's tale-telling tonight after supper.  They say 
Master Elrond himself will tell the tale of the Two Trees.  How exciting!

"Elrandir Eldarendil (know by this companions as 'Wook')"

    Sure, Wook, I'll read with you...:-)
    
    Bonnie (who can't remember right now the elvish name you gave me)

re: .423

It would be interesting to hear your explaination to the police about why you
are out, just before dawn, trying to get the feel of Trolls turning to stone :-)
:-).

-Joe

    
    But Officer!! I was just watching the trolls get stoned.....
    
    grins,
    
    clark.

That would go over real well.  I can see the headlines now.  "Digital employee
arrested for vandalizing local monument."  But officer, I was only trying to 
to pick the troll's pocket when he turned to stone!

But seriously, it should be fun.  Perhaps we should start a separate topic for
journal entries.  I'd like to keep the dates according to Shire Reckoning though
I haven't figured out the correspondence to the Gregorian Calendar as yet.  I'd
also like to use Hobbitish names for weekdays and months as well as years.
In the meantime I'll put my journal musings here in quotation marks.

Note:  The question of what weekday names should be used is not trivial.
Tolkien translated the days into English equivalents, but there is a shift 
in the order because the Hobbits' equivalent of Sunday would have been "Highday"
which corresponds to our Friday (according to the appendix on calendars in LOTR)
I'll put what I remember of the order of the Hobbit weekday names (translated of
course) and the equivalents that Tolkien used.

Translated	Translated
Hobbitish	Old Hobbitish	Tolkien used

Sunday		Sunnendei	Tuesday
Monday		Monnendei	Wednesday
??????		?????????	Thursday
Hensday		Hevensdei	Friday
Trewsday	Trewesdei	Saturday
Highday		?????????	Sunday
Sterday		Sterrendei	Monday

Gad, the memory is mush today.

"I've been thinking back on our adventure with the Trolls, most particularly on
the Trolls purse which Bilbo says was his undoing.  How curious and wonderful to
have a talking purse, supposing of course that it possessed reasonable good
manners... I'd rather think that troll-purses in general would have nasty 
dispositions, being so attached to the troll as to pick up his favorite phrases.
I wonder if the trolls made them?  More likely they stole them from somebody 
they had for breakfast.  Terrible, really.  I've had quite enough of them and 
if they're the last I see on this adventure, that will be three too many."

Well, here's some of what I've found out.

The Hobbits used the following weekday names:

At the time
of LOTR		Earlier form

Sterday		Sterresdei
Sunday		Sunnendei
Monday		Monendei
Trewsday	Trewesdei
Hensday		Hevenesdei
Mersday		Meresdei
Highday		Highdei

Highday, though corresponding to our Friday, would have felt more like our
Sunday since Highday was a holiday after noon.  Tolkien actually didn't use
the shifted version except in one poem in which he substituted Saturday and
Sunday for the Hobbit's Mersday and Highday.

The Shire calendar known as Shire Reckoning was unique in that the year always
started on the first day of the week and ended on the last day of the week.
Also, any particular date fell on the same weekday every year!  It's interesting
to note that with this system, no month ever started on a Highday (Friday).
The way they managed this was to take the odd day of the year (52 weeks + 1 day)
and declared that it did not belong to any week and thus had no weekday name.

The day they chose was Midsummer's Day which this year should be around (our)
June 22.  This day belonged to no month and no week and was a Holiday.  The 
Hobbits found this system to be very convenient as long as they didn't travel
any farther than Bree.  Once beyond Bree, their system clashed with other forms
of Reckoning, and it was very difficult to convert between systems.

All in all, the appendix on calendars covers at least 4 systems: the Elvish
system which was based on six and twelve, the King's Reckoning used in Numenor
Arnor, and Gondor until the end of the line of Kings, the Steward's Reckoning
which was prevalent in the Third Age, the finally the Shire Reckoning used by
the Hobbits in the Shire and in Bree.

I'm continually re-amazed by the depth and breadth of Tolkien's world scheme.

I'll post an equivalence calendar if I can find the time to work on it.

Wook

    Just as an aside does anyone remember how hours were recorded?
    I remember during the Siege of Gondor that I got confused trying
    to track how many hours went by during that particular time.
    
    Regards,
    
    Keith R>

    I think the Gondorians counted hours from sunrise.
    
    Wook, you are twisted.    ;-) 
    
    But then, so am I.  Welcome to the club.
    
    Are you into role playing games, by any chance?  In the Boston area?
    
    
    			=ELB=

All the Dunedain counted hours from sunrise.  I guess they just didn't like 
going to sleep and waking up forgetting what time it was.

I've always preferred counting the hours starting in the middle of the night
when you can (weather permitting) see the stars.  The Eldar counted hours from
dusk as the Jews do.

The Eldar tended to note the years only in passing (if you'll excuse the pun!)
Elves though more in units called y�ni, sing. yen which amounted to 144 of our
years which they called loas or coranari, sing. coranar (around-sun).

The Hobbits had interesting names for the months.  For example, June corresponds
roughly with the month Hobbits called Forelithe, lithe being the three days 
around and including Midsummer's Day.  In leap years, the extra day was added
after Midsummer and was called Overlithe.  Overlithe also belonged to no week
thus preserving the tidiness of Shire Reckoning.  By the way, Overlithe did not
occur during the War of the Ring.

Nam�ri�! (Anyone figured out how to say that in Sindarin?)

Eldarendil

Re: twisted

Well, Ed, I was a bit of a contortionist during high school.  I've got the 
yearbook pictures to prove it. ;-)  As my wife puts it, "Wook, you're weird,
but I'm used to it."  Still we have kept this topic going for over 430 replies 
along with a host of our fellow Tolkien noters (Noterdrim?  Tolkienoth?)

Re: RPGs

I used to game in high school and college (I played rangers most often in D&D,
but I once played a chaotic-evil thief, that was hard!)  I preferred RuneQuest
and The Fantasy Trip (an elaboration of Mel�e and Wizard) and occasionally 
played Traveller (too easy to die from laser blasts).  My college roomates
and I used to play every weekend during freshman year, but that frequency
diminished rapidly as through our college careers.  We still get together
now and again.  Fortunately we are married to relatively indulgent spouses.

Well, here's a bit of what I've calculated as far as Shire Reckoning goes.

This is all based on the assumption that the summer solstice is typically
on June 22.

Midyear's Day		June 22
2 Lithe			June 23
1 Afterlithe		June 24
...
8 Afterlithe		July 1

I'll put in a more complete conversion later.  It's interesting to note that
our year is shifted by about ten days.  If you take into consideration the
extra-monthly days in Shire Reckoning, -- the yule days and the lithe days,
the first day of our months usually start on the 8th, 9th, or 10th of the
corresponding Hobbit month.

BTW, today is 7 Afterlithe which as everyone knows is a Sterday. :-)

Eldarendil

I was just wondering...  As I was reading LOTR for the nth time, I noticed that
Anduril means "Flame out of the West" and Dunadan means "Man of the west"  (I 
never really got into the languages that much).  What is the root for "West"?
Bilbo says something like "Dun Adan, man of the west" kind of implying that 
Adan == West.  Yet anduril doesn't have "adan" in it just "an" - Is that it?
Can anyone give me a full translation of both words?  Thanks.

I was also wondering.  None of the Hobbits in the party, save Samwise seems to
have had a job.  Perhaps Pipin can be forgiven, not yet being out of his tweens.
But as far as I can see, Frodo never had a job (nor did Bilbo for that matter)
nor did Merry.  Certainly, the hobbits had a seemingly 'normal' society, where 
does this bunch get off without working?  


	-Jonathan

    Bilbo was independently wealthy, and Frodo, as his heir, was likewise.
    Even before Bilbo's first adventure, I got the impression that he had
    inherited enough land and money to be a sort of country squire, with no
    need to do any work himself.
    
    Merry and Pippin were both pretty young, but were also scions of
    wealthy houses themselves, I think; if they had had to work at all, I
    expect it would have been some "gentlemanly" occupation. 
    
    There were plenty of examples of the class structure in the Shire, and
    though it may have been milder than that in the human cities it was
    still very much present.
    
    -b

While I don't have my books in front of me, I think the basic difference is that 
Anduril is basically Quenya or High Elvish while Dunadan is Sindarin or Grey 
Elvish, but I'm not sure.

I can't say for sure how to break up Anduril.  I'll check up on it tonight 
unless someone else beats me to it.  Dunadan comes from "dun" which means "west"
and "adan" which is Sindarin for "man" and is derived from the Quenya "atan".

The plural of "adan" is "edain" which is pronounced "eh-dine" I think, while the 
plural of "atan" is "atani".  That is why the rangers are referred to as the 
Dunedain i.e., "Men of the West".

In Sindarin, I believe the compass directions were adun=west, annun=east, 
forod=north and harad=south.  In Quenya the directions are numen=west, 
romen=east, formen=north and hyarmen=south.

Wook

    I checked in the appendix of the Silmarillion and have these
    corrections to my previous notes.
    
    There are two forms of west in the Eldarin languages.  In Quenya the
    forms are "andune" meaning "sunset" and "numen" meaning "the way of the 
    sunset".  The corresponding forms in Sindarin are "annun" and "dun".
    
    I basically blew it on the Sindarin for east and west.  East should be
    "rhun" which I should have known.  At least I was correct on the
    derivation of "Dunadan".  Here is how "Anduril" breaks down.
    
    "Andu-" from Quenya "andune" meaning "west".
    "-ril" from Quenya "rille" meaning "brilliance".
    
    Wook

    Well, I've gotten as far as the rescue from the Wargs and Goblins. 
    I've got couple of interesting things to report.  First of all, Gandalf
    refers to the cave in which the party was captured as the Goblins' new
    front door and that he was thinking of asking an obliging giant to plug
    it up.  Now, he could be speaking in jest, but the tone and the
    circumstances make me wonder if he wasn't serious.  It was said rather
    matter-of-factly for one and besides, he was in the middle of bragging
    about their escape.  Seems to me that if Gandalf were bragging he would
    have muttered something about plugging it up himself.
    
    Secondly, we see various examples of Gandalf's magic.  He causes a blue
    flame to appear on the end of his staff/wand.  He causes a couple of
    big explosions (one of which kills the goblins that were trying to
    capture him at the "front door".)  He lights a bunch of pinecones with
    some magical fire that burns in a variety of colors and seems
    especially good at burning wolves.  That last bit could be more due to
    the pinesap that any special magic of Gandalf's, but he certainly used
    magic to get them started.  And of course he was preparing a truly
    tremendous strike just before he was wisked away by Gwaihir.  It seems
    that under some circumstances, he needs quite a bit of time to prepare
    a spell (cf. his comments about rescuing the dwarves from the Great
    Goblin.)  At other times, he seems to have spells that he can use at a
    moments notice.
    
    The third thing I noticed was the fact that Gandalf understood the
    speech of the Goblins, the Wargs, and the Eagles.  Goblins I can
    understand, but Wargs and Eagles seem to be more in Radagast's area of
    expertise.  About the only way I can see Gandalf knowing Warg language
    is that he learned it to aid him in the spying that he sometimes did. 
    Eagle speech is easier since he may have known it while he was Olorin
    in Valinor.  Of course, he would have had to re-remember it once he
    reached Middle Earth.
    
    I haven't identified any specific dates after the Midsummer meeting
    with Elrond, but I'll keep on looking.
    
    Now what day is it today?
    
    Wook

    
    Well guys, I have to thank you all. By reading this notesfile, Eru
    Il�vatar inspireth unto my �r� the devising of an essay about comparing
    Tolkien's myths with "real" ones (esp. Norse and Celtic). I also
    tried to treat Tolkien's mythology as if the LotR, Silmarillion,
    etc. were mythological and traditional literature (as the Iliad,
    Odyssey, Theogonia for the Greeks).
    
    And believe it or not, Christopher Tolkien read it!!! And sent me
    a nice letter, with autograph and all. I was out of my mind!!!
    
    Anyway, thanks, and keep the notesfiles going, OK?
    
    							Tim.
    

I can't speak for others, but I'd like to read that essay of yours.  Any chance
we net-dwellers will see something on-line?

Wook

My re-reading of the Hobbit has taken me to the house of Beorn.  Now, here's a
pretty unique character.  He's a werebear of the controllable variety.  He seems
to be able to speak with various animals and surrounds himself with animals that
are very, er, talented.  To say that he has a dislike for orcs and wargs is a
gross understatement.

Gandalf speculates that Beorn is either a bear that has the ability to become a
man, or a man that has the ability to become a bear, though he favors the second
explanation.  Apparently, Beorn lived in the Misty Mountains (Ered Hithlum?)
before he was driven out (presumably by orcs) to live in his house by Mirkwood.

Beorn is one of those enigmatic figures in Tolkien's world.  Perhaps not as 
unique as Treebeard, nor as strange as Tom Bombadil, he's one of those weird
characters that you wish you knew more about.

In the trilogy, there is a reference to a group of men called Beornings.  I
believe they were said to be descended from Beorn, but I don't remember any
mention of Beorn's family.  It's not even clear how old he is.

Curious.

Would anyone care to speculate further?

(Tangent:  I wonder whether the name 'Bombadil' translates to anything.)

Is anybody else re-reading?  Bonnie?  I haven't hit on a recognizable date since
Midsummer's Day.  I'm still working on a conversion table or something.  My
preoccupation with calendars must mean that I have some Hobbit blood.  Tolkien
writes that they seemed overly concerned with them since after the War of the 
Ring.  Seems they grew fond of figuring the conversions between Shire Reckoning
and all other calendar systems in Middle Earth.

Wook

    
    RE .439: My essay has been typed with VAX Document and the SDML
    files are on the network, but the language is (ugh) French. If you're
    still interested, I can send you the SDML, LN03 or POSTSCRIPT file(s).
    
    RE .440: I speculate that Beorn is not unique, although he is most
    probably very powerful among his ilk. There *is* mention of his
    son Grimbeorn taking over the leadership of the Beornings after
    Beorn's death. I think therefore that:
    
    	1) Beorn was the leader of the Beornings.
    
    	2) Beorn's office had somthing religious about it, probably
    related to a cult of the bear. (Might be some relation with the
    bear "totem" of the Meduseld).
    
    	3) Beorn's office is probably hereditary.
    
    	4) Beorn is mortal.
    
    From the above, I further suppose that Beorn is just a Beorning
    (related to the Eotheod of the Anduin), but has acquired through
    office or practice, some magical powers (by contact w/ Radagst in
    Rhosgobel maybe).
    
    Bombadil: it is said in the LotR, that Tom Bombadil is the name
    the Hobbits gave Iarwain Ben-adar. I suppose and beleive that is
    has practically no meaning in English, being a anglicization of
    genuine Hobbitish.
    
    		T�k -> Took
    		W�k -> Wook (ha ha)
    		*Tomba Ombadil -> Tom Bombadil (or somthing like that)
    
    
    							Tim.
                 
    

    Re .441
    
    Um, I thought the chief animal symbol of Meduseld was the horse.
    
    ESW

    
    re .-1
    
    The chief animal of Rohan is the Horse (Eotheod = the Horse-People),
    for B�ma's (Orom�'s) animal is Nahar, the "divine" horse, from which
    the mearas are said to be descended.
    
    However, there are other "totems" in rohirric "religion". These
    are (if I remember well) represented in the Meduseld; they include
    (if I remember well again):
    
    	* The Horse
    	* The Bear
    	* The Tree
    	* The Stag
    	* + some more... (the Earth I think)
    
    I have to tell you that much I say about Tolkien's world is just
    my own theory, so it may well be that some of it is not very well
    thought out.
    
    I maintain what I said about Beorn, but I'll check the Meduseld
    bit out tonite...
    
    Hmmm, this is interesting.
    
    							Tim.
    

    Tim,
    
    Where is the reference to Grimbeorn?  The name tickles my neurons.  The
    point about Radagast is interesting.  It implies that at least some
    wizards were able to impart magical powers to "ordinary" humans.  I'd
    like to propose a scenario.  Tell me what you think.
    
    Beorn was a man descended from the stock as the first house of the
    Edain.  He lived with his wife and son in the Misty Mountains.  One
    day, his homestead is attacked by orcs.  His wife dies in the attack,
    but he and his son escape, though Beorn receives fatal wounds in the
    process.  Perhaps they wander through the foot hills, perhaps Beorn
    collapses somewhere near a bear's cave.  The bear is a friend of
    Radagast the Brown who happens to be visiting.  Radagast heals Beorn's
    wounds, but does so by calling upon the bear's natural strength,
    thereby conferring upon Beorn the power to change into a bear. 
    (Another possibility is that Radagast is trying to heal the bear [also
    wounded by orcs] when Beorn stumbles upon them.  Radagast, unable to
    save either one separately, combines their life forces into a single
    being.)  Beorn becomes important among his people and also maintains a
    special relationship to Radagast and his animal friends.
    
    Well, what do you think?  Do we have a story here?  I'm conjecturing
    wildly, of course, but it's fun.  Perhaps the animals in Beorn's
    service are friends of Radagast, trained or perhaps magically modified
    by the wizard to have more anthropomorphic qualities.  I think I'll
    check out the Eotheod connection this weekend.
    
    I agree.  This IS interesting.
    
    Wook (or �k, in my native tongue, and no, I'm not an orc! :-)

    
    RE: .444.
    
    Yep, nice story BUT... Beorn's name is Old English for "bear" and
    Grimbeorn has "beorn" in it. It is possible that Beorn took thim
    name after becoming a "werebear" but why did Grimbeorn get that
    name also? Did he get a similar power (probably through the bear's
    cub..)?
    
    There is one thing which is sure, is that Beorn *is* of Edain or
    Northman origin, related to the Eotheod and the "Princes of Rhovanion"
    (Vidugavia).
    
    Btw, I think the reference to Grimbeorn is during the Council of
    Elrond, although I'm not sure... If you have an index in your LotR
    or Mr. Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-Earth, he'll be in it.
    
    								Tim.
    

    
    RE: .444
    
    Forgot to say, your story could be good as a "legend" of the Bear
    Cult's origin, the Beorn you talk about being the direct ancestor
    of the late Third Age Beorn. Whaddya think of that?
    
    							Tim.
    

Re: .445 (Tim)

I'd be interested to know how you support the Eotheod or Rhovanion connection.
It's not that I don't agree with you.  Indeed I do agree that Beorn must be of
at least the same basic stock as the Edain, I just don't have the evidence.

Re: Grimbeorn

Regardless of whether Grimbeorn (or any other Beorning) had werebear powers, 
just being related to Beorn would be enough to warrant a name change.

I'll check in my copy of Foster's Guide about the reference.

Re: Bear Cult

Yes, it would make a good founding myth, wouldn't it?  The question is whether
Radagast could perform the necessary magic.  Where would you put Radagast in the
Bear Cult pantheon?

Wook

BTW, The adventurers have entered Mirkwood and poor Bombur has fallen into the
river of forgetfulness (perhaps the Middle Earth version of the River Lethe).
They're all out of arrows and very hungry.  Mirkwood is a creepy place.

    
    Re: Edain origins of Beorn
    
    Well, I can't really remember where I read that or if I ever read
    it, but certain details must have hinted me:
    
    	* Beorn's size: if Beorn is human, then Beorn must be related
    to the Edain or Northmen, the other Northmen being the �oth�od,
    the Vidugavian Princes, probably the Woodmen of Mirkwood, the Rohirrim,
    some Bree-men, the Men of Esgaroth and Dale. I believe that Beorn
    is related nearest to the �oth�od, because they lived in the Vales
    of Anduin beside the Carrock.
    
    	* Beorn's relationship with nature: I feel that Edain-men are
    very fond of nature (especially the Haladin).
    
    	* Beorn's hate of Orcs and friendship with the Free people makes
    him more of a Northman than a Common Man.
    
    All this assumes he is human, which is still a matter of conjecture...
    
    Re: Radagast
    
    If the Bear Cult theory is accepted, I think Radagast would have
    but a counseling r�le in it. I suppose he would not like being
    worshipped for having "created" the "werebear". He would be like
    Prometheus in Greek mythology, considered a major benefactor of
    mankind, but not worshipped. One difference, the Greeks could not
    go and visit Prometheus.
    
    More anticipation: Rhosgobel is a holy place in Beorning beliefs.
    Radagast has frequent contacts with the Chief Bear (leader of the
    Beornings) and has plans to make use of his people against Sauron
    in some way, but he finally became entrapped in the Wildlands'
    beauties.
             
    							Tim.
    

    
    Hey, what about this:
    
    Morgoth made the Fell Beasts in mockery of the Eagles, the Orcs
    in mockery of the Elves and the Trolls in mockery of the Ents. What
    about him making the werewolves in mockery of the werebears
    (Beornings)?
    
    To tell you the truth, I like it but it doesn't convince me...
    
    What do you think?
    
    								Tim.
    

It definitely would be in Morgoth's style to create werewolves in mockery of
something, since mockery is all that he is capable of.  Still, if you take the
stance that the first werebears are maiar, then werewolves would also have been
maiar.  The maiar (all of the ainur, actually) seem to take on forms that are
somehow intrinsic to their nature.  It seems that certain forms are more natural
for them.  So it's likely that the werewolves were not created in mockery, but
rather were manifestations of intrinsic similarities and differences among the
maiar.

There are several instances of animals or beings corresponding to some 
primordial being.  For example:

Evil:

Ungoliant -> Spiders of Dorthonion(?) and Mirkwood, Shelob
?	 -> Bats
Ancalagon -> Dragons and Cold Drakes
Drauglin -> Wargs and Werewolves

Good:

Nahar	 -> Mearas (horses of Rohan)
??	 -> Beorn and the Beornings
Thorondor -> Eagles of the Misty Mountains

Some of these primordials are certainly maiar (Ungoliant), but others are
definitely created (Thorondor and Ancalagon).  The point is that some are
clearly mockeries and others are not.

What do you think?

Wook

    
    Beornings:
    
    I believe they're just humans, the maiar theory was just a crazy
    speculation. Werebear ability is, to me, a priviledge of Beorn's
    (and probably others). I'll have to read the Hobbit again (it's
    been ages).
    
    Ungoliant:
    
    I think I read somewhere that Ungoliant was not a true Ainu, but
    something called a Spirit of the Void. I'll have to read the
    Silmarillion again.
    
    Mockery beings:
    
    It is explicitly said that:
    
    Orcs were made in mockery of Elves
    Trolls                       Ents
    Fell Beasts			 Eagles
    
    I don't know about the others.
    
    Wargs:
    
    I've always wondered if wargs were kinds of crosses between werewolves
    and wolves, and if and how they're related to werewolves.
    
    Shelob:
    
    It is also explicitly said that Shelob was an offspring of Ungoliant.
    
    To conclude:
    
    The Ainur's physical manifestations (or fanar, as JRR calls them)
    seem to be able to produce children: Melian, Ungoliant, Morgoth,
    Thorondor, Nahar, etc...
    
    I'll have to think it out...
    
    								Tim.
    

    Re: Fanar
    
    The question is when do the offspring become strictly mortal.
    
    BTW, I knew about the explicit statements of mockery and about Shelob's
    being an offspring of Ungoliant.  In fact, I believe the Silmarillion
    states that the spiders of Mirkwood and Dorthonion are as well.  I just
    wanted to make some generalizations.  I'm not convinced that Thorondor
    and Nahar were of the same nature as the maiar.  I lump them in with
    Huan, Drauglin, and Ancalagon, though I don't know what to call them.
    
    I have a problem with the Spirit of the Void designation for Ungoliant,
    but it's been a while since I read that part of the Silmarillion.  I've
    always viewed Ungoliant as one of those maiar that aligned their music
    with Melkor during the ainulindale.
    
    It's interesting to note that many of Tolkien's animals are capable of
    human speech.  Bilbo can understand the Spiders of Mirkwood and the
    Eagles of the Misty Mountains.  Then there are the Ravens of Erebor. 
    It's odd that they should all know Westron, let alone speak it.
    
    Wook
    
    P.S.  Thanks for reminding me about the term 'fanar'.

    Re: "Divine" offspring eventually becoming mortal...
    
    There is a trend that as Time passes, the Fantastic becomes weaker. 
    People (Elves/Men) become weaker.  Recall that the High Elven King
    Fingolfin was able to fight Morgoth, a VALA, for a good long time
    before getting smashed.  We  had Turin killing Glarung.  We had Hurin
    and Huor doing some marvelous things too, but I forget them now.  
    
    And didn't Beren kill that terrible wolf demon?
    
    It seems that the mundane world corrupts.  The godlike Ungoliant begat
    the monster-like Shelob, who begat the still-wimpier Mirkwood spiders.
    Likewise, the most powerful Elves tend to be the older ones (but then
    again, one would expect that).
    
    Time passes, and the Elves of the early fourth age seem well on their
    way to becoming a forgotten folk of hill and dale...  before the Three
    lose power.
    
    				=ELB=
    
    
    		P.S.  Glad to be back; my system couldn't get me here for
    			almost a month!
    
    

    
    Okay, it's about time to set things clear...
    
    Firstly, the bear totem of the Meduseld is a complete hallucination
    of mine... (I don't know where I got it from...)
    
    Secondly, I'd like to quote ole JRR, concerning Beorn and the Beornings
    + some of my comments...
    
    OF BEORN:
    
    In the Hobbit, Gandalf tells Thorin and company: "... He is a
    skin-changer. He changes his skin: sometimes he is a huge black
    bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge
    arms and a great beard. [...] Some say that he is a bear descended
    from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there
    before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from
    the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into
    this part of the World, and before the goblins came into the hills
    out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true
    tale. [...] At any rate he is under no enchantment but his own.
    [...] he keeps cattle and horses which are nearly as marvellous
    as himself. They work for him and talk to him. He does not est them;
    neither does he hunt or eat wild animals. [...] I once saw him [...]
    watching the moon towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl
    in the tongue of bears: �The day will come when they will perish
    and I shall go back!� That is why I believe he once came from the
    mountains himself."
    
    A few comments:
    
    �At any rate, he is under no enchantment but his own�. I do not
    relly think that Beorn is clever enough to master true magic, but
    that he is naturally magical is obvious. I think that his own
    enchantments are more inborn and instinctive magicks, more than
    arts he has devised himself...
    
    �I cannot say, though I fancy ...�. The fact that Gandalf doesn't
    know much about Beorn excludes Beorn of being a Maia. I think that
    Beorn must be a quite recent newcomer (in the Gandalf scale) in
    Middle-Earth, for otherwise Gandalf would have finally found out
    more about him. (Beorn doesn't even know Gandalf!!!).
    
    OF BEORN AND HIS RELATIONSHIP TO RADAGAST:
    
    In the Hobbit, Beorn says of Radagast: "... not a bad fellow as
    wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again..."
    
    That destroys the Radagast/foundational hero myth (boohoo!).
    
    Okay, that's all for now. I'll put something in about the Beornings
    later...
    
    							Tim.
    

    
    The first thing notice about Beornings, is that there is no reference
    to them in the Hobbit! If Beorn really were the lord of the Beornings,
    certainly it would be noted somewhere in the Hobbit and even some
    of his "subjects" should be present. And he lives alone...
    
    Is Beorn really lord of the Beorning? I should think not...
    
    In Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien defines the Beornings as
    "Men of the Upper Vales of the Anduin."
    
    In Appendix F of LotR, Tolkien writes: "Most of the Men of the northern
    regions of the West-lands were descended from the Edain of the First
    Age, or from their close kin. [...] Of this kind were the peoples
    of the Upper Vales of the Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen
    of Western Mirkwood."
    
    Aragorn, meeting �omer in the plains of Rohan, talks to his two
    companions, Gimli and Legolas, about the Rohirrim: "It was [...]
    long ago that Eorl the Young brought them [the Rohirrim] out of
    the North, and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale,
    and with the Beornings of the wood."
    
    That settles the Beornings' origins question...
    
    During the Council of Elrond, Frodo "learned that Grimbeorn the
    Old, son of Beorn, was now lord of many sturdy men [the Beornings]."
    
    Grimbeorn is called "the Old", and that's in 3018. Let's give him
    80 years of age. That would have been 3 years old in 2941 (the Hobbit).
    Well, let's give him 70. It would do, assuming Beorn was probably
    not lord of the Beornings yet, and that he had not married yet,
    etc.
    
    I've been thinking that the Beornings are probably a group of Northmen
    who have gathered around Beorn, a werebear chased by the arrival
    of Orcs in the Misty Mountains. What do you think?
    
    							Tim.
    

I just read those references in the Hobbit.  It looks like a little wishful
thinking on my part when I came up with the "Founding Myth".

So Beornings probably gathered around Beorns lead sometime after _The Hobbit_.
Perhaps it was Beorn's participation in the Battle of Five Armies that earned 
him a leadership role among men.  When Sauron was "driven" from Dol Guldur, men 
probably began to live in the Vales of Anduin again.  Now was this soon enough 
that they would have gathered around Beorn or would it have been his son?

What do you think about Gandalf's repeated references to giants?  What about the
"great and ancient bears?"

Wook

Hi, Ed!  Welcome back.  Node address changes are terrible things.

    RE: Beornings
    
    I suspect that the Beornings were always there, but that they weren't
    called Beornings until after they started following Beorn as a leader
    or priest.  This could have been after the Hobbit.  It is also possible
    that they were in a community that kept apart from Beorn, who treated
    them with indifference.  But since he was their focus, the person they
    went to when they were in trouble (like from orcs), they were called
    Beornings.  Of course, all pure speculation.
    
    
    RE: Ungoliant
    
    I am convinced that Ungoliant was a Maia/Vala of some order.  The
    reason I say this is that she possessed a (rudimentary) intellect and a
    free will, as demonstrated when she demanded the gems and Silmarilli
    from Morgoth.  Thus she was created with Fire, which only Eru can
    wield (recall the dwarvish "robots" of Aule before they were "burned").
    Thus, Eru made her (though, I suspect, not in the form we see).
    
    
    RE: Giants
         
    I suspect that these are alternate names for trolls.  We see no
    evidence of giants anywhere else in JRR's works.  It was just a clever
    reference in the Hobbit that got lost when the bigger things got built
    around it.  "Ent" means "Giant" in OE, but I don't think they were
    being referred to.
    
    				=ELB=
    

    
    There's something really interesting about Beorn and what he does
    after 2941, in the last chapter of the Hobbit...
    
    About the JRR notesfile. I'd really like to type
    
    	Notes> open jrr
    
    every morning...
    
    								Tim.
    

    
    The Hobbit says, approximatively, that Beorn became a great leader
    of men, and that most of his descendants had skin-changing ability.
    It is understood that these men (which most likely came to be known
    as the Beornings) gathered around Beorn after and because of the
    Battle of the Five Armies.
    
    The Beornings are probably �oth�od in origin, the descendants of
    those few of the folk of Eorl to remain (there must have been some).
    Anybody has another suggestion?
    
    I wonder about another thing. The Hobbit says that most of the Orcs
    of the Misty Mountains were slain or scattered and that the Mountains
    were safe for many a year. Why then didn't Beorn return to his ancient
    home? Is it because he finally prefered to stay with his new followers?
    Or is it because the Orcs have nothing to do with his exile?
    
    What do you think?
    
    								Tim.
    
    P.S. Sorry I didn't say all that in my previous note, but I lacked
    the exact reference and quote. But realizing your unanimous impatience
    of knowing, I had to say something. I'll probably add another note
    with the exact words of ole JRR (if I happen to remember to do so).
    

    
    Wook,
    
    I've been reading the earlier replies (around .170), and you mention
    about studying the linguistics of Middle-Earth. Has that produced
    something? 'Cause I'm essentially a language-maniac (both real and
    imaginary), and I have been building a few rules in Quenya and
    Sindarin, and devising extensive word-lists (including glimpses
    of Rohirric, Dunnish, Westron, Ad�naic, B�orian, Silvan, Orkish,
    Black Speech and Wose-language (forgot what it's called). All these
    words can be found in LotR, the Hobbit, UT and Silmarillion. There
    are also loads of interesting material in the "History of Middle-Earth"
    by Christopher Tolkien, especially for Quenya (called Qenya in the
    books) and Sindarin (called Gnomish). Yep, some elves used to be
    called gnomes in Tolkien's writings around the 1930s or so.
    
    								Tim.
    

    You absolutely need to get Noel's Guide to the Languages of Middle
    Earth (not the true title, but pretty close).  It does what you seem to
    be trying to do, but stops with the Silmarillion.
    
    				=ELB=
    
    P.S.	I'm not THAT impatient....   ;-)

    Well, I've put in a request to my manager to host the JRR Tolkien
    conference on my cluster.  I'll know in a few days whether Tim can
    start his day with "Notes> Open JRR".
    
    Re: .466
    
    I've been looking for the Languages... book for a while though I must
    admit that the effort has been fairly casual.  
    
    Re: .465
    
    I also admit that I haven't really put much effort into "reverse
    engineering" Tolkien's languages.  I have only noted some of the
    patterns that I mentioned back a few hundred replies ago. (I can't
    hardly believe it's been so many.)  Other than the Sindarin gerund and
    imperative forms, I'm not certain of any other verb conjugations.  The
    plural rules are about all I have on Sindarin nouns, though there is a
    hint of masculine versus feminine forms ('hir=lord' versus 'hiril=lady')
    
    I haven't done anything with Quenya, yet, though I'd like to analyze
    Galadriel's song of farewell that she sang when the Fellowship left
    Lorien.  It's the one that starts "Ai, Laurie lantar lasse surinen..."
    though I can't do the accents from my Mac at home.
    
    I'd be interested in any additional rules that you've come up with,
    especially Quenya.  When the JRR conference gets started, I'd like to
    devote a note or two to analyses of elvish passages.  I've been
    rereading the first volume of _The Lost Tales_ and find the evolution of
    the various languages to be quite fascinating.  I think I've spotted a
    misinterpretation by Christopher Tolkien concerning the reading of one
    of the labels that his father wrote on one of his early sketches.  It's
    the one at the beginning of the first volume, but I'll wait to discuss
    it another time.
    
    Re: Beorn
    
    I knew I'd read that info about Beorn before, I just couldn't remember
    where.  It seems to me that once he had helped to eradicate the orcs in
    the Misty Mountains, a lot of the reason for going back there was gone. 
    There must have been some bitter memories tied up with those mountains.
    
    Re: Calendars
    
    Today is Wedmath 15 (as far as I can figure), which is always a
    Trewsday.  I haven't figured out what year it should be and can't even
    begin to make an educated guess.  Maybe someone else can give that a
    try.  As soon as I have Shire Reckoning all figured out, I'll try my
    hand at the New Reckoning, and then perhaps the older Stewards'
    Reckoning and the Kings' Reckoning.  Halimath will soon be upon us and
    we all know that Winterfilth can't be far behind.  Winterfilth in the
    muddy Shire!
    
    Wook

    RE: Languages
    
    All kinds of verb forms and sentence structures are analyzed in Noel's
    book.  All non-english words from LOTR, Hobbit, and Sil? are translated
    as much as possible.  
    
    
    RE: Conference
    
    How are we going to do this?  Dismember this note into a number of
    topics, or just start fresh?  Assuming it comes through, of course, but
    I have faith in Elbereth.   ;-)
    
    				   =ELB=

    Re .467, calendars
    
    What year?  I don't think we can even say what AGE we're in!  Aragorn's
    reign started the Fourth Age, but that was so long ago that all the
    landmasses have changed shape, according to Tolkein.  Rationalizing a
    bit, I would suppose that means it was at least an ice-age ago.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

                       The Lord of the Rings
                      The BBC radio production

Almost two year after my original note (.304) I finally have an original copy
of the BBC radio production of "The Lord of the Rings".  It was sent
to me by a dear friend who found it in a book store in Reading England.
It is as great as I had hoped.  An excellent production!

Now for more good news.  It is now available in the US.  It has been
repackaged from it's original black and gold cardboard box into nice
plastic bookshelf albums (one for each book).  In addition, the set now
includes the BBC production of "The Hobbit".  Making the entire set
consist of sixteen cassette tapes (17 hours) broken up into the four 
bookshelf albums (one for each book).

I don't know who is producing it but I do know where it's available
from.  It's a Catalog company called "Wireless".  The set lists for eighty
five dollars in their Spring 1990 catalog.

Wireless
P.O. Box 64422
Saint Paul, Minnesota
            55164-0422

You can order a catalog (I believe it's free) by calling their 800 number,
(800)669-9999.  You can also place orders via that number.  (M/C, AE, V, Disc)
The catalog number for "The Lord of The Rings" on tape is #10879

Keith
    
    P.S.
    
    I didn't know there was a Tolkien conference till I caught up on this
    note.  If somebody wants to post this note there, feel free.
    

    I have listened avidly to many an hour of the "Lord of the Rings"
    tapes - the Voice of Gandalf (John le Mesurer - sp??) is absolutely
    brilliant - I still remember my diappointment to the Cartoon/film
    that was made many years ago.
    
    The taped version of the "Hobbit" is a sad disappointment however.
    There is only one voice for all the characters to the extent that
    it becomes very difficult to tell who is talking at anyone time
    - I wish they would make a new version of that radio series in the
    smae spirit as the "Lord of the Rings" one 
    
    _Tahi_

The Tolkien Conference has reopen for business. Press Select or KP7 to add this 
conference to your notebook.  DNS object is .easynotes.confs.personal.tolkien
The conference pointer in .475 has been updated as has the entry in EASYNET_
CONFERENCES.

Wook Lee, Conference Host

    This topic has been quiet for the last two years since the Tolkien
    conference was started.  I don't happen to follow that conference.
    However, Tolkien being the writer who got me started in fantasy, I
    thought it might be worthwhile to mention the following book, which
    isn't actually a Tolkien book.
    
    Oh, btw, in case you weren't aware of it already (I wasn't) this is the
    centenary year of Tolkien's birth.
    
    --Simon
    
    From:
                       -< The J.R.R. Tolkien Conference >-
================================================================================
Note 5.19                           Book List                           19 of 21
EPS::LEPINE                                          45 lines  14-JAN-1992 13:26
                              -< After the King >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The book is 

	After the King - Stories in Honor of J.R.R.Tolkien

It is edited by Martin Greenberg with an Introduction by Jane Yolen.  My son 
got it for me for Christmas.  From the jacket notes:

	No writer has had a greater influence on the literature of fantasy than
	J.R.R.Tolkien.  His beloved creations -- The Silmarillion, The Hobbit 
	and The Lord of the Rings -- have not only delighted millions of readers
	around the world, they have inspired an entire generation of writers to
	continue the grand tradition which was his life's work.

	Now, an extraordinary group of Tolkien's literary descendants have 
	contributed original works of fantasy to this unprecedented memorial 
	collection honoring the 100th aniversary of his birth on January 3, 
	1892.
					.
					.
					.

	These stories were not created to imitate the master, but to celebrate
	the dazzling diversity of fantasy which Tolkien's work has inspired.  
	So while there are heroes and wizards, elves and dwarves, dragons and 
	trolls in this volume, there are also alien beings, and distant worlds,
	contemporary people and modern problems.
					.
					.
					.

The authors of the stories are:
	Stephen Donaldson		Terry Pratchett
	Robert Silverberg		Elizabeth Ann Scarborough
	Poul and Karen Anderson		John Brunner
	Patricia McKillip		Harry Turtledove
	Andre Norton			Charles de Lint
	Dennis McKiernan		Emma Bull
	Karen Haber			Peter Beagle
	Mike Resnick			Jane Yolen
	Barry Malzberg			Gregory Benford
	Judith Tarr

Has anyone else read it?  What did you think?

Norm

================================================================================
Note 5.21                           Book List                           21 of 21
EPS::LEPINE                                          13 lines  17-JAN-1992 15:35
                      -< After the King - Publisher info >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After the King is a TOR Fantasy book, published by

	Tom Doherty Associates
	175 Fifth Ave
	New York, NY

I received my copy as a gift, but the jacket has a price
of $22.95 listed.  Since it is a 1st edition, Jan 1992
book, I doubt that it can be had for much less.  I do 
know that my copy was purchased at the local (Nashua, NH)
Barnes and Noble Bookstore.

Norm