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Conference noted::equitation

Title:Equine Notes Conference
Notice:Topics List=4, Horses 4Sale/Wanted=150, Equip 4Sale/Wanted=151
Moderator:MTADMS::COBURNIO
Created:Tue Feb 11 1986
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2080
Total number of notes:22383

1949.0. "What do you do with a baby?" by GIGI32::DINGEE (This isn't a rehearsal, you know.) Wed Feb 01 1995 16:50

	I just brought my new baby back to the barn on Monday; she's
	a 2 and a half year old thoroughbred filly, never been ridden
	and never been tacked up.

	This is all new to me - I've only had horses which were already
	trained (no matter how badly!). But now my trainer and I get to
	do this one from scratch! And I don't want to mess her up.

	Any suggestions? My trainer's really good with youngsters, and
	I'm doing all the things she's telling me, but I know that there
	is no one person that knows everything! I'd like to find out more.

	I spent an hour and a half in and out of her stall yesterday
	evening, brushing her, trying to get her to figure out what carrots
	are, rubbing her with a towel, picking up her feet, and putting her
	halter on. She was *so* calm about it all! And curious and affectionate!
	Are all babies like this? All that, and I realized that she's in heat -
	I can't imagine what she'll be like when she's not! This gives the lie
	to those stereotypes about mares and thoroughbreds. I even went into
	her stall and took flash pictures - not a quiver!!

	Tonight I'm going to show her the bridle and saddle, and rub her with
	the saddle pad and brush some more. Maybe lean on her a little to get
	her used to some pressure. Are there other things I can do? 

	I know that I should back off when she acts scared, then move up to
	her again. I'll be doing "walks" - on the lead - this weekend. And
	free longing in the indoor. What else? It will be a couple of weeks
	before I'm on her back, and meanwhile I want us to bond and for her
	to come to trust me and to get used to some of the things she'll
	see on down the road.

	Thanks for any help/suggestions any of you can make. I'm really looking
	forward to this. She's a beautiful hunter type and I want to help
	her to live up to her potential!

	Julie 
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1949.1exDECWET::JDADDAMIOSeattle:Life in the espressolaneWed Feb 01 1995 19:229
    A couple quick thoughts...
    
    Sounds like you're on the right track with the handling. 
    
    recommendations:
    	1. Linda Tellington-Jones video "Starting The Young Horse"
    		low key common sense approach that any amateur can use.
    	2. Look through the topics index under TRAINING and BREAKING. You
    		might find something interesting there.
1949.2MORE GROUND WORKSTOWOA::NICKERSONKATHIE NICKERSON 223-2025Fri Feb 03 1995 12:029
    Personally we do a lot with the babies on the ground...long lining,
    etc. before we get on their backs....to me a couple of weeks isn't
    enough time before I got on her back especially since she is over two.
    Where has she been all of this time, etc.
    
    Good luck...it really is a fun thing to do.
    
    Kathie
    
1949.3CSLALL::LCOBURNPlan B FarmFri Feb 03 1995 12:3122
    I wouldn't be in any big hurry to get on her back.  Let her choose
    the her own pace of learning, it sounds like she has much to learn.
    She's only 2 and a half, with a lot of years ahead of her.  Don't
    forget to include getting her used to movement and goings-on up
    over her head and back - where you will be once you are mounted,
    as well as having her belly handled and upwards pressure put where
    the girth will go.
    
    Doing something similar myself soon with my new girl - 9 yrs old,
    but her only training has been how to lead and as a former
    abuse case is very leery of people.  I don't expect to ride her
    until late in the fall, or even the following summer.  There's
    so much you can do on the ground to make your future mount
    safe and confident.  
    
    Have you studied Lyons' methods? I've been using his theories
    in ground work with 'Crackers' (named for the obvious reason) and
    it's really pretty amazing at how quickly she's responded to what
    little I've done with her so far.
    
    Good luck, keep us posted!
    
1949.4DECWET::DADDAMIODesign Twice, Code OnceMon Feb 06 1995 15:418
    I agree with John on the Linda Tellington-Jones video.  I don't
    remember trying to ride any of ours until they were 3 year olds, but we
    did a lot of lungeing and ground driving.  By the time I got on their
    backs, they knew all the voice commands, were used to a bridle, and
    being steered and stopped with it.  From then it was fairly easy to get
    them used to the seat and leg aids for the things they already knew how
    to do via voice commands.  And it sure is nice being able to steer when
    you get on their backs the first few times.
1949.5take it slowTOOK::MORENZJoAnne Morenz NIPG-IPEG US DTN 226-5870Thu Feb 09 1995 16:2726
I had brought a 2.5 yr old home a year ago this week - 1/2 Trakehner 1/2 TB
filly. The first couple of weeks at my barn - she was quiet as a mouse. I
figured that she would be a breeze.

Once she became acclimated - maybe 2 months - she was more confident snd less
mellow and laid back than she had been initially (I have 1 other elderly horse
and a very low-stress environment - so I don't think we did anything to cause
this).

It will be tough to read how your horse is handling the training until she feels
like "this is my house" and settles into her normal behavior.

Also - as far as progressing with the breaking and training - they don't always
tell you with *fear* that you are moving too fast. Crabbiness, reluctance, and
general agitation can also be signs.

The most important thing is to take your time and resist the temptation to try
too many new things in too short a period of time. Repetition of the basics is
*everything*. Remember - she has NO MILEAGE.

Sounds like you are off to a good start. Good Luck - it is really a new
experience to start a horse that hasn't been messed up by anyone (very different
from re-shooling an abused headcase). I have found it to be alot easier. I have
taken Lily very slowly - but she is doing great (we are going on trail rides,
doing ringwork - walk-trot-whoa-back. I am going to start cantering her in the
ring in the spring (we sneak a few canter strides out on the trails though ;-)
1949.6my experiences so far...GIGI32::DINGEEThis isn't a rehearsal, you know.Fri Jun 30 1995 16:26201
	Well, we've done a lot since I first entered this, and I just 
	looked over the replies.

	First, I have to say that I realized in my mind that I was going
	to deal with a clean slate, but now I really really really (can't
	say that enough times!) appreciate it! I have had a number of
	problem horses - from auctions, private sales, whatever - with
	serious problems that I've worked and worked on and finally gotten
	them manageable. And that was good. But I can't believe how nice
	it is to not have to do that; it's like a headache - feels soooooo
	good when it stops!

	I just looked this over and realized I do go on and on and on. So
	you can stop here if you want! Our training method was slow and easy,
	instill no fears, be partners, ask and she should be willing to give -
	no force or roughness. This isn't for every person or every horse, but
	I set my goal at having her go to her first show next fall, so I knew
	I had 7 or 8 months to do everything. I then could be patient. Anyhow,
	you'll think, when you read some of this "Oh yeah? Well I did that
	in 2 weeks, not a month", or "I got perfectly good results this other
	way." I know this isn't the only way; just like everything, there are
	many many methods that work for different situations. But this is the
	way my trainer and I decided to go, and I am loving every minute of it!
	And the results have been good.

	My trainer told me Cat was one of the easiest horses she's had to
	train, so my experiences with her are not necessarily what you'd
	expect with just any horse. In fact, I've helped her with 2 others,
	since, one of which was very bad, and one which was normal. But here's
	the gist of what I've learned:

	1. Expose them to anything and everything you can. The sooner the 
	   better. Then it's old hat to them. 

	2. Do things in SMALL doses. Their attention span is very short; they
	   get tired quickly; they can't soak much in at once.

	3. Don't expect much from each session alone; but once they've thought
	   about something, you can see the results from the last session in
	   the next one.

	4. If they're going to react strongly to something, it's not necessarily
	   the first time they encounter it. You can put a saddle on them one
	   night, and they just stand there - the next night they might try
	   to get rid of it! 

	5. When you do something with them that they might react to - e.g.
	   bridle, saddle, girth, rider - keep their body bent so the head
	   is curved toward you. When then react, move them in a circle around
	   you. If they get their shoulder in, they've then got control.

	6. Look at their eyes - their ears might go back or flick or whatever,
	   but their eyes will tell you how they feel - a glazed look means
	   trouble brewing!

	7. Sit deep and hold long...forget position and equitation! Feet as
	   far down and a little forward as possible; butt deep in the saddle.
	   And I can't tell you how many times the yoke saved me and the horse.
	   That's the around-the-neck piece of a standing martingale. I'd hold
	   it with one of the hands I held the reins. If she did something quick,
	   that gave me a good hold without jerking on her mouth.

	8. Don't get excited! If they do something stupid, just continue on.
	   If they spook, just push them back into the walk or trot and in the
	   direction you were going in. Don't make a big thing out of it.

	9. Of course, always be calm, soothing, quiet, easy - no rough stuff;
	   But firm.

	10. Once you start, keep going for about 30 days, try not to miss a
	   few days in a row. They forget. That big head means big sinuses,
	   not big brains... (no, not 30 days, 24 hours a day - once a day -
	   although there were times I felt like I was there 24 hours a day.

	Some of the things we did were:

	Lots of work in the stall, at first; bonding! Brushing, showing her
	things like the saddle, saddle pad, bridle; that carrots were treats,
	making her stand still while I brushed her, rubbing her with blankets
	and saddle pad; touching her with the saddle; walking all around her,
	behind her, lifting her feet, pulling her mane. These things became
	really familiar and commonplace to her.

	Going for walks, early on, too. Into the indoor arena where people
	were riding and jumping and just sitting around - showing her all the
	things she was going to do! Telling her to ignore horses that were
	being naughty...yeah, right...She whizzed around on the end of her lead
	at first, but it got to the point where we could stand facing the end
	of a 3 and a half foot jump from about 4 feet away and watch horses
	canter to them and jump them! Horses could pass us close from in front
	or behind. We could stand next to them. This is all in prep for being
	in a show ring with others.

	Walks down the driveway, around the fields; she's going to be a trail
	horse, too! I'm still on foot all this time. So we don't get bored, I
	lay rails on the ground about 3 and a half feet apart and trot her
	over them, in hand. She picked up on that pretty quick, and when I
	finally did get on her, she breezed right through it later. I led her
	over to the mounting block, patted her from up there, leaned on the
	saddle - oh - and all this time, I had her bridle over her halter, no
	noseband, and no reins at first - just getting used to a rubber d-ring
	snaffle. After about the second time, she pretty much ignored it. So
	then I could lead her around by the lead rope and halter.

	When you put the saddle on, slap the flaps against themselves to make
	noise. The girth should be tight enough so the saddle doesn't slip,
	but certainly not tight enough to ride. You should easily be able
	to get your hand under it. When it first goes on, take the lead off
	and get out of the stall - a few crow-hops now are normal.

	I can't remember the time lines, here, but she was pretty broke by the
	end of March; I was riding by the end of January, but it wasn't pretty!

	I was the first person to get on her; the important person in this deal
	is the ground person. You go up quick and land easy on your thighs -
	don't put your feet in the stirrups until you feel their muscles stop
	quiver. Lay your legs along side, but no kicking.

	During all of this stuff, a big "sigh" from them is really good - put
	the bit in, wait for a sigh. First time the saddle goes on, wait for
	a sigh. Lots of rubbing, head and ears before putting the bridle on
	is good for 2 things - they get used to you touching them there, so the
	bridle isn't the first time; they get to like it, and you can do lots
	more to take their minds off whatever new it is you're doing now! First
	time you put weight on, wait for a sigh.

	So, you're on - just sit quiet - don't shift. Talk talk talk talk - they
	are REALLY curious about who it is up there - sometimes they try to 
	turn and look up at you to see what the HECK it is you're doing. That's
	good. If their neck goes stiff and solid, and their eyes glaze, they
	are quivering, and no sigh - you'd best get off while you can of your
	own free will. Wait a bit, til they sigh (!) and try again.

	If there's any excitement now, that's when the ground person has to
	keep them bent, and move them forward and in a circle around themself.
	You just sit still and stay on - lean in if you have to - they have NO
	balance yet. 

	So, next day, they may have thought about all this, and decide they're
	going to get rid of you before you get to land on their back. Fun. 
	But if they don't, your ground person can then lead you around. Just
	a few minutes - and you can manipulate the reins while the ground person
	is actually controlling the horse. For example, "whoa" is a good thing
	to do right away. You pull back gently but the ground person stops them
	with the lead & halter (still on). They lead left, you move the left
	rein - opening rein - no finesse yet. Same with right. 

	Pat them from up there a lot - neck and withers. We waited a little
	bit before patting the rump - about the same time we did "forward" 
	with the feet. Just a little kick - sides of feet are better than heels
	because you can make more noise, but it doesn't have the potential to
	bruise as easily. So then if you have to kick a little more, a little
	harder, use the insides of your feet. So you do a little kick and the
	ground person leads them off.

	Next lesson (or two if they need to do this again) - have the ground
	person just hold the lead while you control them. If this works out
	okay, you can move on to going without a lead. You may need them to
	lead until the "hump" goes out of the horse's back (they've relaxed,
	when they let down the hump), then you can have them disconnect it
	and you can go on your own.

	For as long as you want, get help mounting. Once they learn they
	can skit out from under you, it takes a bit to get them to stand
	quietly again. The longer, the safer, the better.

	My trainer told me many times - never give them the opportunity
	to do a bad thing - e.g. make sure the arena gates or doors are
	always closed, get help mounting, start with a leader, don't have
	any junk around they can get on, don't get too close to another
	horse, etc etc. Just avoid potential trouble. Sounds like the
	Monks of New Skeet, eh?

	You're on your own, keep hold of the yoke, and keep them going
	forward. The yoke gives you a hold and helps you keep the reins
	short enough that they can't get their head down far enough to
	buck. If they don't go forward, sides of the feet flapping, arms
	flapping, legs flapping, growling, yelling (this is you) all in
	increasing amounts until it's enough, will help. You're serious,
	they don't get to make the decisions.

	Oh, yeah - it seemed after a few sessions, each at a different point,
	each horse decided it was all trained and knew what to do and was now
	going to make the decisions. Weird..."I trot off now", "I stop now",
	"I go faster now" - and I was very concious of not getting into the
	habit of doing the same thing over and over. So I don't know where
	they got it. But it was pretty funny.

	Well, this isn't all - we're jumping 2 ft, straight down lines and
	small courses out in the field, now. We can go on short trail rides
	by ourselves - not too far away, yet - but with friends, we can go
	farther. But I've put in more than you ever wanted to hear, I'm
	sure!

	It's been fun; we're working with a horse that's going to the race
	track, now - once he can walk, trot and canter in both directions
	under a rider. My trainer's mare just had a baby and I cant' wait
	til he's 2! I really like this baby thing! But, I was lucky that she
	was so easy.

	-j
1949.7Sounds like fun!CSCMA::SMITHWed Jul 05 1995 14:305
    Wow, that was fun to read, good info too.  I hope someday to get a young 
    unspoiled horse, your note makes it sound like a lot of fun.
    
    Thanks,
    Sharon
1949.8Memories!STOWOA::MCKEOWNFri Jul 07 1995 15:032
    This note brought back such memories.  I really enjoyed it.  Please
    keep us informed as you go to your first show!
1949.9we did our first show!GIGI32::DINGEEThis isn't a rehearsal, you know.Mon Jul 10 1995 11:2550
	Funny you should mention that "first show"!  I took last week off,
	and my trainer decided to go to the New Hampshire Hunter Jumper
	Association annual show on the 9th (yesterday) - she's been doing a
	lot of big AHSA A shows, and three-day and 5-day shows, and shows
	that are a long haul from the barn, so we haven't had much choice of
	"first look" shows. This NHHJA show is at Furnace Brook Farm in New
	Ipswich, and there is lots of room, it's well-run, the rings are huge,
	there are 3 warm-up areas, and it's a really relaxed show - so we took
	Cat!

	I am having so much fun with this baby! She was very very good - she
	did a lot of calling to every and any other horse that even THOUGHT
	of whinnying, for the first hour. But after that she calmed down. She
	would break into a trot on the lead, but that didn't go on for too long.
	We walked around the ring her classes were going to be in - all around
	the edges, inside and out, and I let her sniff the jumps, and see the
	lines from both directions. She trotted a couple of circles around me
	in the ring, but the second time we went in, on foot, she was much
	calmer. I spent a lot of time that morning wandering around with her on
	her "leash". I went prepared to longe her but she needed that about as
	much as I did (and after getting up at 3:30 a.m. I certainly did not).

	When my trainer took her in for warm-up, she acted like an old hand!
	Jumped everything and didn't shy at anything. And she got a 6th out
	of 19 in her first "Easy Does It" (18" fences) class. Her main problem
	in her second Easy Does It was trying to go out the in-gate as she
	came around for the outside line! Pretty funny how the survival
	instinct causes people to move so quickly sometimes...

	My trainer took her into the other ring for a flat class, and she was
	pretty excited - we hadn't walked around in there. So her head was up
	and there was a lot of knee action - not a "plus" in a hunter. But
	she was calmer at the end of the class. She got 3rd out of 4 in that
	one.

	Then I took her in 2 hunter pleasure classes. She was great during the
	walk/trot/canter. But she wouldn't back up! I forgot we had to teach
	her that - so that's her homework for this week. We got a 3rd (she did
	a couple of mincing steps back - I pretended it was all I asked for
	and patted her and came forward again before the paddock master said
	"ok"!), and a 6th (she wouldn't back up at all for that one!) out of
	15.

	Her favorite parts were standing on the trailer eating hay with "the
	guys", and getting carrots. I have to say that she is just so laid
	back about everything, that I'm sure I'm having much nicer experiences
	with all this than I might normally. But that's okay! I'm not going to
	give her back!

	-julie