Conference noted::equitation

    What a tragedy! My sympathies to your friend.  I've seen numerous
    horses colic due to infrequent/improper worming, but I've never seen
    it the direct cause of death.  How sad!
    

    
    	All of our horses have been on Strongid C daily wormer for over
    	two years now and it is wonderful! [don't know if it's available in
    	the UK yet].  Some of these horses require less grain, and those
    	that were prone to colic have not coliced at all in 2 years. Coats
    	are wonderful, even my black horse has dappled out, and they shed
    	out much better in the spring.  
    
    	For those of you not familiar with it, the idea behind it is
    	instead of removing an established worm infestation once a month or 
    	6 weeks, by worming them daily there is never any infestation. For
    	the average 1000 lb horse, it works out the same, dollar-wise, as
    	paste worming and a regular basis and tubing once a year. 
    
    	I can't say enough good things about Strongid C, and neither can 
    	my vet. I have their promotional video if anyone wants to borrow
   	it, just send me mail.
    
    	Sherry 

    
    
    
    
    	More information.. Sherry, how much does it run for a tub of
    	the wormer.. ?
    
    	How much do you feed your horse (how much does a tub last).. .
    
    	Where do you buy it.. Is it distribution local?
    

  We considered putting my gelding on the daily wormer, but rumor (from
  inside the manufacturer) was that there are plans to remove it from 
  the market.  So, this is just something to consider....

					-Caroline

    
    	One tub lasts my horse 3 months. It averages about $55 a tub,
    	you have to get it from your vet.
    
    	Caroline, any rumor an why it would be removed from the market?
    	My vet says every horse her clients' have on it are doing great.
    	Are there side effects we don't know about??

    I don't understand how $55 per tub, lasting 3 months per horse, is
    equivalent to the cost of paste worming.  I'm not great at math, but:
    
    $55 x 4 times yearly = $220.00
    
    Paste wormer, at approx. $12 per tube, used every 6 weeks per horse,
    would be purchased 9 times a year.  Total cost would be ~$108.00
    yearly.
    
    Does your vet charge $112.00 for a yearly tube worming? I don't know
    what mine charges, I've never had it done (and not because I'm cheap
    or unconcerned but because yearly fecals have shown no need for it).
    
    Myself, a $112.00 difference per year, times 2 horses ($224.00) is a
    lot of money. I wish my income were enough not to have to consider
    $224 a lot of money, but I'm a lowly secretary on a tight budget.  I
    think I'll have to stick with the paste method. 
    
    I do remember my friend's vet (we use different ones) telling her that
    the long-term effects of daily wormer were not yet well enough
    determined for his comfort.  I've heard good things about it from other
    horse owners who do use it, though.  
     

    I've never heard of any side effects, either through "anecdotal"
    evidence or scientific studies. Strongid-C is a well regarded product 
    by every veterinarian I've ever talked to about it. Except for the
    high price, it is highly recommended by equine vets in this area.
    
    I know you can get Strongid-C through mail order catalogs but I can't
    recall whether or not it requires a prescription.
    
    Remember that rumors are just that. They often have no basis in fact.
    Remember the rumor back in June that DEC was going to require all
    employees to take an unpaid "sabatical" in July? 
    
    The only reason I can imagine that Strongid-C would be removed from the
    market is economic: If there weren't enough demand for it to make it
    *profitable* to keep producing it.
    
    Besides, why would such a rumor prevent anyone from starting your horse on
    the product? A fear that s/he'll get addicted and go into withdrawl
    if it becomes unavailable?

    I was chatting w/ my vet and she said that she is hearing rumblings
    that it might be better to worm your horseevery 4 weeks during peak
    worm season, and every 8 weeks on the off season.
    
    My vet sells the strongid-C, but does not push or recommend it to
    anyone  (or not recommend it).  It is very expensive, and she's not too 
    comfortable w/ the lack of long term effect type research on feeding
    your horse a poison/chemical on a daily basis. (I'm not trying to knock
    the product...sorry if it comes across like that....I just was
    inserting my own 2 cents) 
    
    I picked this vet for this very reason, as she's great w/ the animals,
    very affordable (especially when you have many animals) and she will
    present information in a manner so that you can make the best decision.

    Linda,
    
    There's nothing wrong with your math! Strongid-C is more expensive
    than paste wormer, especially if you have to feed it 365 days a year.
    Not only would it cost you $220.00 for 4 tubs of Strongid-C but you
    still have to use ivermectin at least once a year to kill bots. You
    could have the vet tube-deworm the horses but who does that any more?
    (See note 426 for details about Strongid-C routine.) So, the total cost 
    for Strongid-C would be more like $230-$240 per year per 1,000# horse
    IF you have to feed the Strongid-C year-round in your climate. We would
    have to do that here in WA because the winters are so mild. I've been
    told that it isn't really necessary in New ENgland but that many people 
    feed it year-round anyway.
    
    Strongid-C kills basically strongyles(blood worms) and little else. Of
    course, strongyles are the major parasites that cause problems in
    horses and *every* deworming program should be aimed at them. So, that
    isn't a major problem.
    
    Do you really pay as much as $12 per tube of paste wormer? We buy ours
    through catalogs and have never paid more than $9.50 for ivermectin.
    I know the tack shops etc around here charge $12 plus 8% WA sales tax
    which would make the total about $13 per tube. The catalogs are much
    cheaper and don't charge sales tax. Most of them don't charge for
    shipping either if you buy $40 or $50 worth of stuff. Ordering a 3
    month supply of wormer for 2 horses would easily meet that minimum.
    
    We deworm monthly with a rotation of drugs. We use ivermectin every other 
    month(6 times per year) and use Strongid-P/Strongid-T and Anthelcide-EQ 
    the other months(i.e. 3 times each per year). The other wormers we use
    are cheaper than ivermectin. I think the Anthelcide-EQ is less than $4
    per tube. I can't remember the cost of the Strongid-P tubes but I'm
    pretty sure it's less than a tube of ivermectin. Anyway, let's say it's
    $12 just to be safe.
    
    To worm 12 times a year, we spend a *maximum* of $105 which is half the
    cost of using Strongid-C daily! Here's the math:
    ivermectin		(6 x $9.50) = $57
    Anthelcide-EQ	(3 x $4)    = $12
    Strongid-P		(3 x $12)   = $36
    				      ___
    Grand Total                      $105.
    
    
    John

    
    
    
    Thanks, John re:last
    
    
    A small nit, but I do believe that "De-worm" is the proper term for
    ridding your horse of parasites.  "Worming" implies the opposite.
    
    I used to say I "worm" my horse, as well, but my vet has such a hangup
    about the common misuse of the word that I've also become sensitive to
    it.
    
    Simone
    

    >"De-worm" is the proper term for ridding your horse of parasites. 
    >"Worming" implies the opposite.
    
    Logically, you're right. And, a what horrid concept "worming" a horse
    would be! But, language ain't necessarily logical! 
    
    According to my standard college dictionary, "worm" is a verb meaning 
    "3. To cure of intestinal parasites." So, the use of "worming" as most 
    horse people use it is correct English. 
    
    Besides, "worming" is so widely used to mean "de-worming" that
    people look at you weird when you say "de-worming" I get enough
    weird looks as it is so I usually go with the more common term even
    though I know it's illogical. ;-) 
    
    And, imagine how snooty people would think we were if we used even more 
    correct terms like vermifuge or anthelminitic! ;-) I can see it now:
    
    "Sorry I was late today, Boss. I had to give my horse a vermifuge."
    or
    "No, I can't go out with you next Saturday. I'm planning to give my
    horse an anthelminitic remedy."
    
    Look 'em up! ;-) 
    John

    Re: 1922.2
    
    In the UK we don't have a wormer that you feed everyday, I didn't
    realise there was such a wormer.  Are there any side effects?  
    Where I keep my horse people are advised not to ride the day after
    worming (They are all wormed together) as the horse might be feeling a
    little uncomfortable.
    
    Also the price of your wormers in the US appear to be slightly cheaper!
    
    Wendy
    

    John,
    
    Actually, no I don't pay $12 a tube for ivermectin.  More like 8.95,
    but I have seen it go for as much as $12 at the more pricey places so I 
    used the highest I'd seen in my estimate in comparing it to the price
    of the daily.  Even at it's most expense, it's still coming out
    considerably cheaper. I rarely mail order my equine supplies, although
    I know it can be more convenient, but I enjoy my trips to the tack
    shop.  Which is a bit odd considering that I absolutely detest any
    other form of shopping usually mail order anything that cannot be
    bought in either a tack shop or hardware store. :-)
    
    Personally, I worm every 6 weeks with ivermectin and Strongid-P on a
    rotating basis.  I've never had to tube worm, and yearly fecals are
    clear of problems.  I've known people who wormed as much as monthly
    (as you do) in the summer and then reduced it to every 8 - 10 weeks in
    the winter, but I stick with the 6 weeks year-round because it's
    convenient, easy to keep track of, and seems to be an effective system
    for my two charges.  I also remove the manure from the turnout area
    daily (I just consider it part of stall cleaning, and done on a daily
    basis it's easy to keep up with), which goes a long way towards
    keeping worm problems down.
       
    

    
    	re taking Strongid C off the market: I spoke to a friend who is a
    	veterinary pharmacist, and she said it was going to be pulled from
    	mail order because it costs so much to ship, etc.