Conference noted::equitation

    For the most part, I don't think dogs need to be at horse shows.  
    Especially the one day shows.  I just don't see any reason for it. What
    is wrong with leaving the dog at home?  Riders should not have to be
    worried about the prescence of a dog at the trailer parked next to
    them. If the dog was brought along to protect the trailer/belongings,
    how do you think the people in the trailer parked next to you are going
    to feel about being snarled at everytime they move around (you know
    how close together trailers are parked at most shows)?  If you say your
    dog doesn't act protectively, why was he brought along as protection in 
    the first place? 
    
    At longer shows, where staying over is required, I can see more logic
    behind taking your dog along in some situations.  Still, I'd prefer to
    see people find a dog-sitter and leave Fido home.  If he must go along,
    though, I tend to agree with some of the rules outlined in that
    article.  I don't remember what they all were, but I defineatly agreed
    that a 'dog fee' should be charged, that all dogs must be leased at all
    times, that any owner whose dog causes a problem will be asked to leave
    the premises (and take the dog with them!).  I would also tend to think
    that dogs should be restricted to the camping/trailer areas, especially
    considering that the general reason people give for bringing them along
    is to protect their belongings.  So, okay, leave the dog with the 
    belongings and away from the warm up/show rings.
    
    We have a large, intimidating-looking neutered male German Shepard.
    He's good with people, very well-behaved, quiet, and very accustomed
    to horses.  He never has been and never will go to a horse show.  I
    like knowing he's at home, protecting the house when everyone is off
    at the show (he is very territorial and lets strangers know their
    on his property until he sees it's okay with myself or my husband).
    
    

    I take mine to nearly every show I go to. She's perfectly happy to sleep
    in (doors are open) or under the car when I'm in a class, and to "dog"
    my heels when I'm around the trailer site. She likes the people, horses,
    atmosphere; is well-behaved and on a leash when I'm not there, or 
    I keep an eye on her at all times when she's not. She loves to go.

    A lot of people at horse shows have their dogs, and the only problems
    I've ever seen are when the dog is not on a leash and unattended.

    The "charge" for dogs that you mention was at some fair; there were
    also articles in AHSA's "Horse Show" magazine. My recollection of
    the story was that they first excluded dogs; people were really upset
    and took their dogs anyway, threatened to leave the show, never come
    back, etc - a *lot* of people. So the show managers backed off and
    decided those with dogs had to pay an entry and keep them tied at
    the stalls only in a certain area, or on leashes when with the owner;
    they were fined or sent home if these rules were broken.

    I believe the majority of horse people have dogs and want to have them
    with them - I do; she's my buddy and wants to go. Sometimes she has to
    wait by the car for me, but that's okay by her because she has water,
    treats, company, and can take a nap. And the majority of dog people are
    responsible about seeing to it the dog is not a nuisance and is cared for
    properly when at the show (has water, is not locked in a hot car, etc).

    And yes, there are irresponsible people whose dog is a pain in the <fill
    in here> and the people should be fined or asked to leave the grounds.
    But I don't think those few should put an end to something enjoyable for
    the rest of us. It's the easy solution that happens too often - one or
    a few people abuse privileges and everyone has to suffer for it.

    Julie

    
    When I pull my self to the a show, I would never think about brining my
    dog.  I'm way to busy to give the dog the attention and time she would
    need.
    
    When my hubby pulls the trailer, we like to bring the dog (leashed).
    This give my hubby something to do and I feel good about not leaving
    my dog home all day alone.  She is alone 5 days a week, she does not
    deserve to be alone on the weekends.
    
    I get very annoyed when I see folks w/there dogs at a show and they
    are not leashed, they think there dog will be 110% at there heel, but
    you never know...Iv'e seen way to meny well behaved dogs run into
    the riding ring while a class is going on and spook horses who are not
    accustomed to dogs.
    
    Lou 

    Imagine if you ever took a horse to a dog show!
    
    Karen

�                       <<< Note 1921.5 by SALEM::ROY_K >>>
�                                 -< How about >-

�    Imagine if you ever took a horse to a dog show!
    
I can just imagine that :)

"How'd you ever expect my dog to sit-stay with that *horse* there???" :)

However, this weekend I was at a fun match ("practice" dog show) which was 
right next to a carnival (right next to = 30 yds) with an elephant!  I 
think all the dogs checked the elephant out but at least in obedience, no 
problems :)

    I was also thinking along the lines of weekend trail rides....and other
    events
    
    

    As some of you may know, we have a number of dogs(10 at the moment).
    None of them has ever been to a horse show. None of them will ever go
    to a horse show, even a weekend or 3 day show. They simply don't belong 
    there. We're too busy to look after them while showing and, if they were
    loose, they'd be all over creation ; eating horse manure, terrorizing 
    horses, and licking the faces of little kids.(Kids are another example
    of living beings who do *NOT* belong at a horse show.)
    
    

<begin strong statement>

Dogs should be leashed at shows, with one end of the leash attached to a human
or a stationary object. The length of the leash should not allow obstruction of
any right-of-way. 

I do not like the practice of taking a dog to a show, attaching one end
of a leash (or rope) to the collar, and leaving the other end free.  The
dog is 'leashed', right?  He's got a leash on, so what's the big deal, you say?

Well, I prefer not to have my hay (or any other of my gear) urinated on,
my food eaten when it's left unattended, my brushes or bandages carried
off to become toys, slobbered on when I am sitting there trying to relax,
have to weave my way around a bouncing dog on my way to my stall/trailer when
there's minimal space to begin with, etc.  Not to mention the fact that there
may be people in attendance that are a) afraid of dogs for some reason or
another, b) allergic to them, or c) simply don't like them.

For your dogs safety, I don't want it near my horse's feet.  He may step on it
or kick it, or shy away from it and get hurt in the process (spooking horses are
not graceful).  I don't need to deal with those worries.

Loose dogs can get into fights with other dogs on the show grounds.  

Don't get me wrong.  I like dogs. I enjoy their company. I don't own one 
because it doesn't fit my lifestyle (being away from home for 12-14 hours/day).
I kind of like 'registering' your dog at the entry booth, and making it wear
a number all day, so when the show management finds it loose, they know who
to call/charge. Dogs caught without a number should be held in a 'pound' and 
need to have 'bail' posted.

If you have a well behaved dog that stays in or under the car or trailer
all day, keeping it on an unobstructing (for others) leash shouldn't be a
hardship.

<end strong statement> 

    Michele,
    
    What were you planning to do with your dog on weekend trail rides while
    you are out on the trails? I've never seen anyone with a dog along out
    on the trails and I'm sure it's against organization rules...if not it
    certainly should be.  Dogs have no place actually out on trails with
    horses, mainly because a loose dog in the woods is a major hazard to
    wildlife, land owners, and other riders.  What if he comes bounding
    out onto the trail in front of a green horse, who consequently spooks,
    rears, and injures his rider? I've never seen anyone mounted on a horse
    with a leashed dog, I don't think anyone would seriously believe such
    a situation to be safe.
    
    If you are planning to leave him behind in camp, what if you get a site
    next to someone with small children who are afraid of dogs, or as Kathy
    said, anyone who is allergic or just plain unappreciative of them? 
    People who go to horse events go because they enjoy horses.  Not
    everyone who enjoys horses also enjoys dogs, however.  Will someone be
    staying behind in camp to care for the dog, and keep him from getting
    into trouble out of sheer boredom?
    
    I'm sure many people who bring their dogs to shows are very responsible
    and their dogs never cause any trouble.  But if you allow these people
    to bring their dogs, irresponsible owners are going to do so as well.
    It's just they way people are, unfortuneatly.  If it's going to be
    allowed, there needs to be strict rules that are adhered to.  And, IMO,
    it's the people who adamantly want to bring their dogs who should get
    involved in setting/enforcing these rules.  
    
    Oddly enough, I almost agree with John's comment on kids, as well, but
    that's a different rathole. :-)
     

    I was under the impression that most of the 'loose' bothersome dogs
    were ones that lived near the riding area and had found something
    interesting to check out. Maybe I was wrong, I just wouldn't think of
    horse people letting their dogs run around like some I've seen.

�              <<< Note 1921.10 by CSLALL::LCOBURN "Plan B Farm" >>>

�    Oddly enough, I almost agree with John's comment on kids, as well, but
�    that's a different rathole. :-)
     
My husband and I have a name for them... :) :) :)

    RE:  .10
    
    No Linda, we wouldn't bring the dog to the Vt. Foliage ride.  
    We did bring him to one of the Fjord weekend/camping events,
    and he was 95% good and 5% bad (when he showed us he could not be 
    off his leash).  Dogs are welcome there....it's a family fun thing.
    
    My thoughts on the subject were that dogs are out (and you can add me
    to the anti-small child list too).  I've had stuff ruined from strange
    dogs...and nothing aggravates me more.  But, Now that I got this dog
    I feel a lot more comfortable with him around;   when I go to places
    by myself (history: I lived in Boston proper for 5 years and was jumped
    by 5 youths - so I personally tend to be wary) - When I trailer by
    myself,  going out back in the pitch black by myself to fix that
    fence....ya know.
    
    I really wanted to hear what the local community has to say regarding
    this topic.....I wasn't looking for anything personally.
    
    Michele
    
    
    p.s.
    
    I'm glad to see that there are still some folks out there....it's
    gotten pretty quiet out there.  :^)
                                                            

    
    I wouldn't take my dog on an organized trail ride, but I do take
    my dog all trails rides that I do alone or w/ my partner.  I love
    to bring my dog on my trail rides.  She loves to run and she has not
    trouble keeping up, she also has discourages meny a weird-o I have meet
    in the deep woods.

    Here in the UK its very common for people to take their dogs to Shows
    and Events.  I was competing at a Horse Trials this weekend in the New
    Forest which is a very popular venue for people and dogs.  Most of the
    dogs I saw were on leads and tied up to the lorry or the trailer.
    
    I was doing my cross country and I was approaching fence number 6, when
    the fence judge had blown her whistle to let people know that a horse
    was coming when someone with a big black dog (On a lead!) was stood
    right infront of my line!  I couldn't beleive it, so I really had to
    shout to make them get out of my way!  If the dog hadn't been on a lead
    then I don't know what might have happened!
    
    I usually take my dog which is a yellow Labrador with me to Events hes
    very well behaved and had grown up with horses.  Hes really quite funny
    because he looks for me and my horse if we are away from the trailer
    and as sees us coming towards him he starts to wag his tail!  If I
    don't take my dog with me to events I feel as though I have forgotten
    something!
    
    I think if your dog is used to being with horses and is well behaved at
    events, and can be tied up etc then its ok, if the dog is not well
    behaved and has to be locked up then its not really fair on them,
    especailly if they bark alot!
    
    Wendy

    
    
    
    
    
    
    	
    	<flame on>
    
    		This is a great topic.  But I think we should go
    	further.  I think that the only people that should be 
    	allowed to go to shows are those that have perfect horses.
    	You know the type I mean, they never spook or act up at
    	all.  They load and unload from the trailer with no problems.
    	Why even if a car back-fired, the horse would stand as still
    	as a statue.  Sorry, no horses with red ribbons in their
    	tails.  And kids!  No way!  Sorry you single parents, who
    	sometimes may have no other alternative.  You have to stay
    	home.  Why now I feel bad that my wife and I took our son to
    	the state 4-H horse show.  Imagine the nerve of us and
    	the other folks who had their WELL-BEHAVED children there.
    	        Perhaps we should set up some sort of regulatory
    	commission. They would decide who will show and those that
    	won't.  Or hold two types of shows.  One for the no dogs,
    	no kids, no nothin' and one for us other folks, who are
    	there to have fun and do the best we can do and tolerate
    	the real life obstacles that may sometimes be part of a 
    	horse show.
    
    		<flame off>
                

    Gee, Bob you're a little touchy on that subject.
    
    On the other hand I've never in my life *seen* "WELL-BEHAVED children" at
    a horse show. Perhaps, you should take video of these kids. I'm sure 
    they're so rare that the Smithsonian or some other cultural museum
    would gladly pay to have film of them for their archives. 
    
    My experience with kids at shows is that they get bored very easily and
    when Mummy and Daddy are busy with the horseys, bored kiddies do lots
    of nasty things.
    
    Many shows that we've been to prohibit dogs. Others permit only 
    leashed dogs. Perhaps, if the kids were leashed and afixed to the
    car/truck/trailer, they'd be less noxious.

    		I've seen both sides of the coin.  There are some
    children that are well-behaved and some that aren't.  Maybe
    I will video tape next time, just so you can see that there
    is such a thing as a "WELL-BEHAVED child".  That way you'll
    know what they look like and you won't have to check in your
    "Smithsonian Guidebook of Troubled Children".  

    Louisa,
    
    I do hope you are very careful letting your dog run loose through the
    woods when you ride.  We have come across more than a few animal
    traps that could easily maim a dog.  Do you know how the owners of the
    land feel about a dog running free on their property? Many people
    welcome pets on leashes, but not off a leash....we see signs stating
    this at times, as well.  I am sorry to hear that the area you ride in
    has many a weirdo in the woods, though!  In my area I can ride for
    miles upon miles, going through several towns and not seeing a paved
    road once.  I have never, ever run into a 'weirdo' as you have. Have
    you considered carrying a small spray bottle of mace or pepper spray
    with you? I do this, but the only occasion I've ever had to use it was
    on, well, a loose dog. (just a few weeks ago, in fact) :-)  I see a lot 
    of wildlife, but never the two-legged kind, although I do believe that
    the biggest danger to people in the woods is other people in hunting
    season.  I avoid the woods at all costs in the late fall, for that
    reason.  
    

    Thanks Bob. It sounds like you took my response as I meant it even 
    though I forgot the smiley faces. 

I recently took my 2 children to Skowhegan for a weekend show (they are
13 and 10) for the first time.  My son was walking from the barns area up to the
arena and saw an exhibitor struggling to open the gate and ran up to open
it for them.  I almost had a heart attack chasing him because it was the 
trail class and the exhibitor was opening the gate as an obstacle!  

Everyone commented on how polite he was for offering to help and the judge 
cracked up!  I was a basket case all weekend.  You never know what an animal
is going to do (never mind your kids!) and I prefer if they come and watch for
awhile with my husband instead of staying the day.  

Karen   

    I think (imho) that small children can be difficult at shows because
    there is not much for them to do.  Maybe 1 to a few classes (some of
    the shows I do have added a redlight green light game or two to 
    give the small ones more to do).  Even the walk trotters only show in a
    few classes.  And unless these kids are showing a well behaved,
    appropiate sized pony that they can do all the stuff vs a tall horse
    that they have trouble reaching the high spots, I think they get bored,
    and a bunch of unsupervised bored kids can and will lead to mischief!
    
    When the kids start showing in the Youth program, there is a lot more
    for them to do.
    
    I know the time may come for me to have a small tag along....hopefully
    everything will work out.
    
    I like Karen's idea where the kids visit a show w/ someone for awhile.
    
    M

    I think the main problem with kids at shows is basically the same as
    with the dogs....no one is watching them.  I have had, many times, kids
    come running up behind my horse, darting around, etc.  If they are
    going to be at shows, the parents need to take responsibility for them,
    teach them how to act appropriately around horses and ENFORCE the
    rules.  Don't leave them unattended.  If you are showing alone and your
    only option was to bring your child along...well, it is STILL your
    responsiblity to make sure your kid behaves while you are in the ring.
    I'm not really interested in how you achieve this, but if your
    unattended child runs up behind my horse and gets stepped on, kicked,
    whatever (and for which I will not apologize, you and your child should
    both know better) a responsible parent should be fully prepared to take full
    responsibility and punish the child accordingly. 
    
    On the other hand, if your child IS well-behaved and watched closely, 
    by all means bring them along, a horse show can be a great experience
    for a child.
    
    FWIW, I have no children, by choice, and have no plans to have them.
    
    ** Note **  I did not use 'you' and 'your' in this note in reference
    to anyone in particular but rather parents in general.  
    

re: many

    The one thing I ***hate*** when walking either on the street or
    town conservation land is comming accross unleashed dogs...

    Many become alitttle defensive, which is normal, and the owners always 
    find it so amusing.

re: 1921.16            
    
>>    		This is a great topic.  But I think we should go
>>    	further.  I think that the only people that should be 
>>    	allowed to go to shows are those that have perfect horses.
>>      .....

    At a dog show, I agree.
    At a horse show, it is expected.
                

re: 1921.19            

>>    woods when you ride.  We have come across more than a few animal
>>    traps that could easily maim a dog.  Do you know how the owners of the

    I believe this is illegal as heck.  I hope you called the appropriate
    wildlife law enforcement agency.

        

    RE -1:
    
    About the traps.  It is perfectly legal, we have looked into it.  There
    are areas of public land that allow it, providing the traps have proper
    identification, etc.  I have, at home, the details they sent my husband
    when he looked into it.  I don't remember them all, but were both
    rather surprised at the laws protecting trappers.  Moral of the story
    is, if you are going to let your dog run loose, whatever happens is
    your own fault.  The place we have seen them the most is the flood
    control areas around Hopkinton/Contoocook NH (the woods behind DOO
    have plenty of them out there).
    
    Trappers are not even required to post signs stating that they have
    traps set in the area, which I would have thought would be required.
    Trapping on private land is legal as well, naturally, both by the owner
    or a hired trapper, or anyone with the landowner's permission.  Riding
    on private land without obtaining permission, even un-posted land, is
    'at your own risk'.  I ride in large parcels of conservation land, as
    well as Class 6 (undeveloped 'roads' that are mere trails) which are
    public right of way.  I try to avoid land I know to be private, and
    avoid any land posted 'no trespassing' at all costs.  Luckily, in my
    neighborhood Class 6 roads go for miles upon miles.      
    

    Another thought.....
    
    One of the kids from where I keep my horse was out riding on their pony
    riding in the private estate with their dog, he had always been so good
    with horses and used to keep out of the way of the ponies hooves etc,
    and one day Sam (the dog) somehow managed to get tangled up under the
    ponies legs.  The pony panicked and trampled on the dog. Sam managed to
    craw back to the yard which was about half a mile with a broken back,
    he had to be destroyed, it was very upsetting for the kids. I suppose
    the pony thought that Sam was going to attack her and so tried to
    protect herself.

> and one day Sam (the dog) somehow managed to get tangled up under the
>    ponies legs.  The pony panicked and trampled on the dog. Sam managed to
>    craw back to the yard which was about half a mile with a broken back,
>    he had to be destroyed, it was very upsetting for the kids. I suppose
>    the pony thought that Sam was going to attack her and so tried to
>    protect herself.


I hesitate to think that horses/ponies are that logical. My guess is that 
the pony was surprised/spooked and tried its best to get out of the situation.
The dog (unfortunately) happened to receive the brunt of the effort. Imagine
what would have happened in a temporary stabling area especially if the dog was
tied and there was a rope involved, and the larger of the two animals weighed
1500 pounds!

Small animals, be they 2 or 4 legged, do not belong where they could get into 
trouble. They don't think in a 'rational human manner'.

>>    About the traps.  It is perfectly legal, we have looked into it.  There
>>    are areas of public land that allow it, providing the traps have proper

    I was thinking about a law, (which may be Mass only) requiring traps
    be set so the animal drowns, ie Beaver & Muskrat, but forgot about
    others like Foxes & Coyote.
    
>>    Trappers are not even required to post signs stating that they have
>>    traps set in the area, which I would have thought would be required.
>> etc.

    People would vandalize the traps., etc.

    
    I doubt many dogs have been hit by cars when leashed, so I guess
    running loose has it's risks.

    Personally I'd put traps at a relatively low risk....

    Re >Personally I'd put traps at a relatively low risk....
    
    I agree. If you're there to release your dog, they'll come to little
    harm from traps. I took our pack of Cairns out for a walk in the woods
    a few years ago. They range but not more than 30-50 yards. Suddenly,
    Evan, who had dashed ahead and round a bend in the trail, started
    yelping like crazy. I was there in less than 15 seconds to find him
    caught in a fox trap. I open the trap and checked his leg. There wasn't
    a scratch on him. Must have put a good scare into him though because he 
    hasn't gone near a trap since! ;-)

    I'm relieved to hear that you guys have not run into the types we have seen,
    I'm not risking having my dog caught in one of them. Some are small, sure,
    but we have seen others that are large, heavy, and snap shut quickly
    and viciously.  Perhaps there is a unique problem with a specific critter 
    in this flood control area that they are trying to trap for a certain 
    reason. These larger ones are set up off the ground about 3 feet, but 
    on small, weak, broken branches that are just propped up against something
    (tree or large rock).  They appear to be set specifically so that the animal
    will jump up against or climb onto the branch and knock the trap to the
    ground. They are baited with what smells for all the world like skunk
    meat. What eats skunks?  My german shepard could easily knock it down if 
    he jumped up onto it.  I have no idea what they are trying to catch with 
    these things, but I am going to do my best to assure that my dog is not 
    injured by walking him on a leash when I hike in these areas. Actually,
    we don't walk in that area much at all anymore, but a lot of people
    ride horses through there, so I think that warning people who frequent 
    the woods with dogs running loose about the possibility of these traps 
    being around is a worthwhile endeavor.
        

    On the subject of dogs at horse events, I did an organized ride
    yesterday in New Boston NH that had good attendance (20 - 30 trailers)
    considering the dismal weather.  I payed attention, and found only
    one dog in the parking area.  And this dog belonged to one of the 
    organizers.  A small Golden who greeted everyone at the registration
    desk but stayed right there.  He was loose, but I did not see him stray
    more than a few feet from the desk.  There appeared to be no other dogs
    around at all (except for a few loose ones along the trails, and one
    particularly nasty one that I suspect gave more than a few riders
    trouble).  
    
    And I saw only *one* child, too.  She was about 10, and was riding a
    cute little Welsh alongside her mother.  Very well-behaved, and totally
    occupied taking care of her pony.  
    
    I thought it was interesting that dogs/kids were so notably absent, 
    although I'm sure a trail ride is a much less likely place for them to 
    be than at a show where everything is done in one spot.
    
    And Michele, I did actually see a rider ponying a second horse along,
    although I suspect it was just a local following the trail markers
    rather than someone who had trailered in as an actual participant. 
    Still, both her charges were well-mannered and calm and did not seem
    bothered at all about the groups of strange horses passing them.  I
    didn't hear any comments at all about them at the meal after the ride.
    
    

    Out of interest - what are you supposed to do with your dog before and
    after a horse and hound class at a show where you're entering this
    class?  Horse and hound classes being the rider and horse jumping a small
    course follwed by a handler and dog jumping the course.  These are very
    popular and can be found at most local shows in my area - there is
    quite often a dog agility class included as well.

    I have just read something in a National Newspaper here in the UK,
    someone had just bought it to my attention - a non horsey person!...And
    it had an article about a toddler was dragged 100 yards in its buggy bu
    a bolting horse... On reading further it said a "Chestnut Mare" and was
    blown totally out of proportion, the mare had been tied up and had
    spooked at a hot air bollon which was going overhead and took fright
    and ran AWAY from where the bollon was and in its path was this baby in
    its buggy being pushed by its mother, the horse apparently was heading
    straight towards the buggy and somehow got caught up in it and dragged
    the buggy with the baby in it.  The baby suffered a broken leg and arm,
    apparently the mother and baby were spectators at the show......
    
    I don't know the whole story as I wasn't there, but this makes me think
    that surely the general public SHOULD NOT be allowed to wander around
    where the horses are warming up, and the trailers/lorries parked.  At
    some shows I have been to they have roped off areas so that
    "Spectators" can't mix with the "Competitors"  
    
    Wendy
    

re: .30
>>    and viciously.  Perhaps there is a unique problem with a specific critter 
>>    in this flood control area that they are trying to trap for a certain 
>>    reason. These larger ones are set up off the ground about 3 feet, but 

    I asked a local expert, a member of a local sportsmans club who is also
    involved with an authentic mountain men re-creation type group.  You know,
    camp in the winter in the snow with no modern equipment, all clothes must
    be had made as they were in 1820, etc.  They walk in parades and talk to
    school groups too.

    Anyway his best guess is raccoon or possum.  Modern trappers use sents
    and not bait so your probably smelling something like concentrated
    urine from a fox in heat.

    Horse manure don't seem so bad after all !

    The big square traps are body traps, which must be what John released
    his dog out of.

    After reading alot of replies to this topic about traps in the woods
    etc when you go out riding, I can't help thinking how dangerous it
    could be if you took your dog out riding with you, your dog could get
    killed or seriously hurt.  
    
    In the UK *ALL* types of traps are banned.  I have seen some traps and
    they look rather horrifc.  People tend to have the traps displayed on
    their walls as ornaments rather than being laid in the woods...

re: Note 1921.16 by SALEM::ALLORE -< What's next....?!?!! >-

    Actually, I understand perfectly where Bob is coming from, and I
    have to agree with him (and grin at his manner of expressing it!).

    In my earlier reply, I alluded to the too-common practice of totally
    banning all <fill-in-the-blank> because of the common discourtesy
    of a few. The all-too-frequent and all-too-easy solution is to
    stop everyone from doing something because a very few abuse the
    privilege. This goes for dogs at horse shows, riders crossing
    private property, and I'm sure any one of you can think of many
    more.

    Dogs are much more welcome everywhere in Europe - airports, stores,
    I've even seen them in restaurants! And one of our UK noters mentioned
    how popular they were at shows over there.

    But over here, one person doesn't like something, and they're NOT
    GOING TO TOLERATE IT!! ALL CHILDREN AND ALL DOGS MUST STAY AWAY
    FROM ALL HORSE SHOWS!

    Well, chill out. Deal with it. If one dog is loose and causing a
    problem, clip it on a lead, call the owner, and request a $5 or
    $10 fine before returning it. If a kid is whining, screaming or
    getting candy apple on your good riding pants, shoot it - OH!
    Did I say that???! I didn't mean it, of course.

    But why is it that some few people have to set the rules for the
    rest of the world? I see it in the town I live in; I moved there
    because only 2 of the roads are paved, and I can't see my neighbors.
    Some people move in from the city, and want the roads paved, trash
    picked up, put up fences and no tresspassing signs, complain about
    dogs, horses, etc - what the heck did they move to the country for if
    they want to make it just like the city they came from? Why can't we
    deal with things as they are, and on an individual basis? Why can't
    we loosen up?

    I've been to shows where I've had to jump cats, pull dogs out of
    the ring (and off each other), place my body in front of bolting horses,
    help load rearing horses, pick cotton candy off my jacket and mustard off
    my helmet and various other stupid and sometimes dangerous things. It
    happens. Nobody guarantees one a perfectly safe, perfectly happy, perfectly
    perfect life, based on how one thinks *everyone* should live.

    -julie

    P.S. Spikey, my terrier, is coming to the horse show next Sunday!
	 Nyah nyah! (smiley face here)
    

    
    Julie - great note!  good points about city folk moiving to the
    country.  
    
    Lou

    Aren't you being just a bit hypocritical in judging others as being too
    judgemental?
    
    And as to the differences between the acceptance of dogs in public
    places in Europe vs the US, perhaps it's because the Europeans don't
    have this "Born Free" attitude that many Americans seem to have. You
    know, "I want my dog to run free and be totally natural.".... They
    don't seem to care if the dog gets into trouble or gets run over or
    whatever. I've had one such person actually tell me they let their dog
    run in the woods unsupervised despite the coyotes and wolves. WHen I
    asked why, he said, "I'd rather have him die in a fight than from old
    age." sheez, gimme a break
    

    Nope, I'm not - I'm saying THE FEW who are too judgemental (and if
    we even have the concept of a few people being too judgemental, then
    it's because it's happened - it's fact, it's not just my opinion - or
    would you prefer I don't confuse the issue with fact?) should not
    ruin things for THE MANY. 

    Give it a rest? Would you please explain why you said that? Are
    you, as moderator, asking me not to put my opinion in this notes
    file? 

    -julie

    re: "Give it a rest? Would you please explain why you said that? Are
        you, as moderator, asking me not to put my opinion in this notes
        file?"
    
    No, I am not asking you not to put your opinion in this conference. I was
    merely suggesting that we drop the subject. We've beat it to death.

	Oh, okay - just checking. But I also get the impression, based on
	the activity over the past few days in this entry - as opposed to
	lack of activity on most of the other notes - that people are
	interested in this topic, and enjoying putting their opinions in
	here. I am; and I'm enjoying listening to all of the different
	experiences and opinions I find here!

	-julie

re: why stop now?

	Definitely!  ;-)

	I've taken my son to watch events and keep a sharp eye if not keep
	him attached to me.  I DON'T want him 'under hoof'.  He's thoroughly
	enjoyed chiming in with "Horse Coming!"  "Incoming!" and appeared to 
	have amused a few people.

	On the other hand, I have taken him to an event where I was riding.
	I brought a combination horse/kid-holder AND had grandparents 
	attend.  Things were hectic but manageable when it was just Ashley
	and I keeping track of horse & child.  However the grandparents!!
	I had heart failure... they had NO clue how dangerous it was.. and
	thought it was okay for a 2yo to be walking 4+ feet away (unattached)
        from them near xc warmup!!  Worse, they didn't listen to me!!

	Thank goodness for Ashley!  Instead of helping me, she kept my
	son ATTACHED to her - REGARDLESS of grandparents wishes!!  (and they
	were just a little bit miffed)

	If there is a next time... I'm not inviting the grandparents, I'll
	enlist Ashley and send them off to watch xc while I make do.  Better
	yet, I'll bring more horse/kid-wise help!  ;-)

	One definitely needs to plan carefully when bringing children or
	dogs along.

					-Caroline

    I agree with you, Julie...no reason to end the discussion if there
    are still people who would like to offer input at all!
    
    I found your comparison to moving out to the boonies interesting. We
    did so, as well.  When we bought, we had NO close neighbors.  Now 
    3 house have been built close.  No, we cannot see them, they are not
    THAT close, but we know they are there.  Seems the only way to avoid
    the 'yuppies' moving close is to buy a huge piece of land and built
    smack dab in the center of it. (we have 7 acres but are it's long and
    narrow and we are close to 3 boundaries).  Fortuneatly, the area is
    general is still very rural and there are ga-zillions of acres of
    vacant and conservation land around us.  Nice trails!  When they
    start putting in street lights and paving the roads we are moving
    further out again.
    

    Re "I'm saying THE FEW who are too judgemental (and if
    we even have the concept of a few people being too judgemental, then
    it's because it's happened - it's fact, it's not just my opinion - or
    would you prefer I don't confuse the issue with fact?)"
    
    You're the only one who has said anybody was too judgemental. That's
    your opinion...and you *do* seem to be confusing your opinion with
    fact.
    
    Now, as to dogs in the country, etc...Oh forget it it

    Now that we humans have voiced our opinions about the .0 subject,
    maybe we should ask the dogs and horses how they feel about it.
    Anyone know a good animal communicator?
    
    #;>{o  (=just kidding, even though I have a "pounding" headache)
    Carl

>>    You're the only one who has said anybody was too judgemental. That's
>>    your opinion...and you *do* seem to be confusing your opinion with
>>    fact.
    
    John, *what* is your problem?!?

    I enjoy reading about what other people do with their little darlings
    (children) at shows.  They are dangerous for everyone!
    
    Last month when we went to the World Show in Texas my roomie was hit
    by a truck while bringing a horse from one arena across the street to
    another and the driver blasted off.  The guy shot right out of a spot
    and hit her in the chin with the tailgate.  She was fortunate that she
    was leading the horse and it broke her fall.  He took off and never
    even checked to see if she was okay.  
    
    She was very lucky though because she got to get fixed up by some
    pretty famous trainers and now everyone knows who she is!  The horse
    made it to her class and came in 7th.
    
    Karen

    		Well, that's simple enough to explain.  The reason
    	that the driver didn't stop is because it was a child driving,
    	who didn't belong there anyway, and he couldn't see over the
    	dash board, never mind what was behind him.  He was in a hurry 
    	because he also had a dog with him and had to get out of there 
    	before anyone realized what was going on!  Imagine, a child AND 
    	a dog!  At a horse show, never!
    
                   Insert smiley where appropriate,
    
                                Bob

No wonder why!!!  I just remembered that at the show in Connecticut
some people had a cat with a little harness and a nice little house for
him in one of the tack stalls.  He was a little nervous but looked so cool
on his little harness marching around.

How about mini's at all breed shows!  Have you ever seen full grown horses
stampede away from a little herd of mini's waiting for their class?  It
is pretty amusing.

Karen

    >John, *what* is your problem?!?
    
    Julie, I was thinking of asking you the same thing. You're the one who
    stated that others were being too judgemental. You later said
    that, because the concept had arisen, this was fact not your opinion. 
    I was merely trying to point out that the only fact is that it is your
    opinion that other people are too judgemental. The distinction is an
    important one. You were the only one expressing that concept and,
    therefore, it is merely your opinion rather than a fact.
    
    Have you ever seen one of these TV spots about drinking? Someone says
    "If you've ever wondered whether you are an alcoholic, the answer is
    yes. The question wouldn't occur to you if you didn't have a problem."
    
    I think you could apply the same logic here. If you think people are
    being too judgemental, *you* may be too judgemental. Otherwise, the
    question wouldn't occur to you.

    The truck incident Karen related is incredible! I'm really surprised
    we don't see more ambulances at horse shows, dealing with such HUGE
    animals in such an exciting environment - including all of the horses,
    riders, spectators, pets, etc.

    Which reminds me - there is going to be a llama show here in New
    Hampshire - I just saw it advertised in this morning's paper - it
    will be at one of the UNH facilities in Durham. One of the things
    mentioned was how gentle they are. There used to be a llama owner
    reading this notes file - are you still out there? Do people bring dogs
    at your shows? 

    I was trying to think of all the horse people I know that do *not*
    own dogs, and it amounts to less than 10 percent - less than that if
    I count the number of dogs they do have! Is that common? About
    what others experience? If that's the case, it seems that dogs
    and horses go together in some way, somehow. I wonder why? Or maybe
    we're just plain general all-round animal enthusiasts.

    -julie

    (P.S. I have to acknowledge the foolishness that has gone on in this
    note between John and myself, since you all have been so patient and
    might appreciate some relief! I'm out of that part of the discussion
    from here on in, since it could go on ad nauseum.)

    In thinking of your question regarding what % of horse owners also
    own dogs, I realized that:
    
    During the two years that I boarded I knew many horse owners (fellow
    boarders) who did not also have dogs.  I don't know why not, I expect
    some lived in apartments or situations where keeping a dog was not
    feasible, and I expect others just plain did not want a dog.
    
    In the past 8 years of having my horses at home, as well as all through
    my childhood growing up on a farm with the usual assortment of farm
    animals, most of the people I know who keep horses at home do also have
    dogs.  My closest horse-owning neighbors do not have other pets, but
    most in the area do.  Perhaps because they live in a situation where
    it's very easy to have/keep dogs, etc.
    
    But honestly, I can see a sizable difference between having a dog at
    home on a farm with your horse(s) and bringing said dog to a busy,
    hectic show situation where you are going to be too busy to keep an
    eye on him and where you don't know whether or not his presence will
    be appreciated by other attendees.  At your own home is a different
    situation...all my family and friends know I have a german shepard,
    and that he is part of the family.  If they don't like him, they
    don't need to come over, we can visit just as easily at their home
    where they are more comfortable (and where I would not consider bringing
    my dog along). 
                  

>    During the two years that I boarded I knew many horse owners (fellow
>    boarders) who did not also have dogs.  I don't know why not, I expect
>    some lived in apartments or situations where keeping a dog was not
>    feasible, and I expect others just plain did not want a dog.


I'm one of those horse owners that does not have a dog.  I do not have one
because I am not available to give it the attention a dog requires.  I board
my horse out, at a place 20 miles from my home. My home is a condominium, and I
cannot leave a dog tied outside. The farm where I keep my horse is between work
and home, so I do not go home after work until AFTER I have been to the barn. I
leave the house at 7:30 AM and often don't return home until almost 9:00 PM. 
It's not fair to ask a dog to stay indoors that long.  Even on the weekends, I
usually travel a route that keeps me gone for the better part of the day
(between the barn, errands, and other committments).

If I could live at the same place where I kept my horse, I would probably have a
dog, as long as I knew my living situation was not likely to change.  I like
dogs.  I just don't like rude/obnoxious dogs. (And remember, one person's 'cute'
or 'funny' can be another person's 'rude' or 'obnoxious'.)

    Untill I moved into my place last year, my husband and I lived in an
    apartment and boarded our horses.  WE had (and still do)an indoor
    kitty.
    
    I also used to *strongly dislike* other people's dogs ay shows.....but
    these dogs were the type that were unattended and usually got into your
    stuff.
    
    Now that we live in the middle of nowhere, and have a great place for
    many types of animals, we got a dog, and I look at the whole issue
    differently.  
    
    I was at the annual Fjord horse show this weekend and GMHA (the place 
    w/ the obnoxious horse show rules and requlations), and there were dogs
    and kids there.  80% were probably restrained, the other 20% were not,
    but they didn't seem bother anyone (ie there were mentally attached to
    a body or two).
    
    Kids....the usual bunch of leadliners through Junior hunters....most
    were very well behaved.  For those of you who don't know GMHA...they
    have a small creek running through it that keeps the kids occupied!
    
    We had a great time.  I would have like to have brought my dog along,
    but I didn't....because I know he would have been bored and
    mischevious.
    
    Has anyone else experienced a change from dislike to liking regarding
    dogs?
    
    
    

    
    FWIW - I was a show this Sunday, there were meny dogs, some leashed
    some not. all had perfect behavior.
    
    lou

	re .52

	Someone call a llama owner?  Probably the person you were
	thinking of was Jan Brown.  Since she's no longer with
	Digital, and since I'm the other half of Weeping Willow 
	Farm...

	We generally ask that dogs not be brought to llama shows
	or events.  (I know this is true for the Big E, having worked
	as barn crew there, and for the Llamas and Alpacas Fall
	Festival, the event this past weekend.)

	The reason is behavioral.  Canids have been the primary
	predators of llamas and the other New World camelids.
	Foxes living in the Andes prey upon newborn llamas.
	Llamas are fine with household dogs as long as they've
	been introduced -- the llamas accept the dogs as part of
	their home environment.  But llamas can easily distinguish
	between "their own" dogs and strange dogs.  

	This makes llamas excellent guard animals for sheep and goats.
	They'll let Rover be, but drive off feral dogs or coyotes.
	The size of llamas, and their tendency to approach
	things to investigate tends to confuse and intimidate
	North American predators.  If seriously threatened,
	they are perfectly capable of using their strong front
	legs to defends themselves.	

	So, you can see why bringing a pooch to a llama show could
	tend to disrupt the proceedings.  We've had very few people
	get upset at our request when we explain the biology in
	back of it. 

	Ron

    We have dog obedience classes in our arena on Monday evenings that
    usually end at 7:30.  Well, last night they went until 8:00 and their
    were several horses waiting to use the indoor arena standing in the
    aisle.  Now I know how dogs would act if you took a dog to a horse show!!
    
    Karen

    I meant to say a horse to a dog show!
    
    Karen

    
    
    WEll tell us what happened Karen!
    
    

    Well, it sure looked like a couple of arms got stretched!
    
    Actually, PeeWee thought that the Pomeranian was pretty unique looking,
    "sweeping" up the all the dirt in the arena.  He was staring at that
    one.  They weren't paying attention at all, whining and staring when
    they were doing their "stays". 
    
    Karen

    For the most part I strongly agree with NOT bringing an dog to 
    horse event. BUT...
    I have a keeshound that is very well trained and gets very upset if she
    does not get to go on the trail rides with me. She stays far enough
    away never to bother the horse(s). If I am working barrells she gets out
    of harms way and waits.                                              
    I have brought my kees to a 3 day event, she is charming and sweet
    to other animals and kids. I just can not get her to ride behind the
    saddle yet!
    Now my dalmation is another story. she MUST be chained in a kennel.
     
     Carl