Conference noted::equitation

    Carl-
    
    My GSD puppy (aka the moose at 6 months of age) barks at and plays with my
    horses.  My horses tend to ignore him, except the yearling, and they play
    `chase me' together.
    
    Michele
    
    p.s.
    
    even when approach by obnoxious barking dogs on the trails and streets,
    none of my horses appear to be bothered....they seem to have the
    attitude of `come a little closer sucker so I can nail you!'.
    Unless of course the mangy mutt takes on the appearance of the
    tommyknockers...and then they might spook a bit....untill they see it's
    a mangy mutt.
    

    I have a horse and a pony and a 6 yr old German Shepard.  The horses
    most defineatly are NOT afraid of the dog.  The TB I had living at my
    horse for a few years used to chase him, as a matter of fact.  My pony
    licks the dog, and my horse totally ignores him.  I have never seen a
    horse really afraid of any dog, actually, unless the dog was snarling
    and making otherwise aggressive moves.  The horses those people tested
    must have been real wimps. :-)
    
    While we do not generally encounter them, like Michele's horses, my mare 
    is not even bothered by loose, strange dogs on trails or road.  
    She totally ignores them until they get right up on her heels, then gives 
    them a pop. She's got pretty good aim, too! Most dogs, however, will back 
    down if you turn the horse to face them.  I dont know why, but dogs 
    defineatly seem to prefer to go at horses from the rear and are 
    intimidated once faced with a head on confrontation. Dogs are one reason 
    I carry pepper spray attached to my saddle, although I've never had to 
    use it (on anyone, human or beast).    
    

    
    Hello,
    
    There is a GSD in our yard and boy can she bark.  When she runs loose
    in the fields she seems to pick on a few of the younger horses/ponis
    and barks at their heel until the horses turn, ears back and chase her. 
    I've seen her getting a good kick too but this doesn't stop her.
    
    Around the yard she lies wherever the sun is under legs if need be and
    none of the same youngsters bother her infact when lifting there feet
    they are really careful.  On a few occasions the dog has been locked in
    with some of the ponies and we've found her lying down slepping beside
    them.
    
    A few of the owners bring their dogs to the yard, a big black Labrador,
    a Jack Russell and a Weirmeraner (excuse the spelling).  Can you
    imagine four dogs chasing each other, six kids chatting, six ponies in
    stages of unsaddling/saddling and a radio blasting out the latest music
    hits and none of the horses/ponies bat an eylid.  Sometimes all this is
    going on and the farrier is there with his van too !!  What a
    place...You need ear plugs.
    
    I don't know how or if this will help,
    
    Regards
    Sandra
    

    >from the standpoint of ordinary human who finds horse behavior
    >fascinating and peculiar.
    
    Gee, gang. If Carl thinks *horse* behavior is "peculiar," I wonder what
    he thinks of *our* behavior! ;-)
    
>Trigger never appeared to be bothered by Bullet!!

I love it! You really know how to hit the "disproof by 
counter-example" nail right on the head. You sure you weren't trained 
as a mathematician rather than a musician?

My own experience has been very similar to that reported by others. 
Our horses basically ignore dogs of all breeds unless the dogs
appear to be in attack mode. Actually, our horses have even 
ignored barking, charging dogs. When we run into dogs on the trail 
and the dogs approach (whether or not they run & bark), I usually point 
the horse directly at the dog for a couple reasons: 1) To make sure 
that my horse has seen the dog and 2) to intimitdate the dog as much 
as possible. Beyond that, I've never had to do anything about dogs 
on the trail other than growl "GO HOME YOU MANGY MUTT!"

It's been about 12 years since I read Ledbetter & Ainslie's book so 
I dug it out to see *exactly* what they said. I think I found the 
passage that Carl is talking about on Page 48 under "Predators":

" ... Horses are also skittish about large dogs of predatory aspect. 
They look uneasily at German Shepherds and Doberman Pinschers but 
quickly accept Collies. Toy Poodles and other small dogs are almost 
beneath notice. If one comes within range, the horse might sniff at 
the wiggling ball of fluff just to see what it is. And a gentle 
Great Dane elicits great curiosity. The horse plainly regards it as 
something not quite dog and not quite pony, but usually does not 
fear it."

All of our horses have, at one time or another, encountered Dobie's.
As best I can recall, they never reacted any differently just 
because it was a Dobie.

I think what Ledbetter & Ainslie mean is that the more a dog looks 
like a wolf(or other wild canine), the more likely they are to be 
afraid of it. I can buy that a horse would be more *likely* to be 
afraid of a dog that looked like a predator than of a dog which 
doesn't resemble a wolf at all. But, that doesn't mean that they 
*will* be afraid of the dog. Heck, our horses hardly take notice of 
coyotes which *are* predators.

Re *BIG* dogs...The biggest dogs our horses ever encountered were the 
Newfoundlands where we boarded 18 years ago. One of the Newfies 
would run back and forth along the fence and bark at horses in 
pasture. My mare thought this was great fun and would run back and 
forth with him! She would strike out and buck and do all sorts of 
things to encourage him to keep playing! Sometimes, she'd even start 
it by coming over to the fence to tease him.


>Carl-who-knows-nada-about-caballos

�Hombre, tu concoces cabllos! You've picked up *lots* of knowledge in 
the time you've been here. Some from us; Some from books; Some from 
your cat and some from straddling a horse(which you confessed to in 
another topic).

John

    The order of the universe revealed below:
    
>    Gee, gang. If Carl thinks *horse* behavior is "peculiar," I wonder what
>    he thinks of *our* behavior! ;-)
    
Horses seem to have pretty good reasons for what they do!!  #;>{)

>You sure you weren't trained as a mathematician rather than a musician?

I find music theory to be ordered and logical like math.  So I'm thinking
they have more in common than most of us think.  Hmmm...let's see...math
and music have similar elements of order, and horses seem to be following
some sense of reason in their behavior.  Maybe there's a lot *we* can learn
from them!!  Isn't there such a thing as "horse sense?"

>�Hombre, tu concoces cabllos! You've picked up *lots* of knowledge in 
>the time you've been here. Some from us; Some from books; Some from 
>your cat and some from straddling a horse(which you confessed to in 
>another topic).

Thanks mostly to you, John.  I look at my equine education kind of like
a scene I saw in an episode of the "Mash" TV series, where Col. Potter's
horse had something wrong with it and the question was asked, "Who knows
anything about horses?"  B.J. Honnicut answered, "I stepped in some horse
manure once."  To which the reply was, "OK, you're in charge."

    Which means, of course, that I don't learn about it unless I've put
    my foot in it!!
    
Carl

    Carl,
    
    In .0, you said:
    "My reading has brought up a few issues which I'd be interested in
    learning more about. The first item that I'm curious about concerns how
    horses get along with dogs."
    
    So, now that we "talked" about horses & dogs for a while, what else?

    In the same book, "The Body Language of Horses", authors Ainslie and
    Ledbetter state that horses are especially aware of changes in their
    environment.  To illustrate this point, they tell about a test they
    performed.  It seems that there were two barrels of different colors
    against the side of a barn, one with a "contraption" on it.  The
    barrels and contraption had been in exactly the same place without
    change for many years.  So they swapped the barrels from under the
    contraption to see if a particular horse would notice.
    
    The horse took immediate notice and went over to check it out.
    Apparently satisfied that it was nothing to get excited about, the
    horse went on its merry way without another thought.
    
    Do horses generally notice changes like this, or is the above example
    extreme?  I know a guy who is color blind and he can tell even subtle
    differences in shade, so if horses are also color blind (I think
    Ainslie/Ledbetter say they're not) it stands to reason that horses might
    also be able to notice differences in shades and colors.  So it seems
    logical that the horse in the above test would have had the ability to
    notice the differences in color from one barrel to the next.
    
    But would a typical horse really notice immediately that the barrels had
    swapped places?  If so, would the typical horse care?  What real-life
    experiences do any of you have?
    
    This Ainslie/Ledbetter book reminds me a lot of the work of the noted
    French child psychologist Piaget who conjectured, after observing only
    his own two children over a period of many years, that all children
    must behave as his had.  Many psychologists thought (and still think)
    that two children is not a large enough sample to base anything on.
    
    It seems to me that Ainslie/Ledbetter have also based their conjectures
    on a limited sample.  While some of what they say seems to make sense
    to me, some of what they say makes my eyebrows raise.  After all, this
    book does not appear to be the result of a discplined study.  I could
    be mistaken, though.  I often am mistaken, just ask my wife!!
    
    May the horse be with you,
    Carl

    Well, my mare certainly 'notices' changes around the barn, paddock,
    and even on familiar trails.  But I would say that for the most part
    she does not care.  She'll often give a cockeye look and sniff a bit
    then go on her way.  Curious, but not concerned.  She's not at all
    the spooky type, anyway.   My pony is the same, but even more curious.
    She too is unafraid, and has the added emotion of 'meddlesome'. She'll
    go up to things and paw at them with a front hoof, nibble on them, and
    see if she either lift them up or knock them over.  
    
    My friend's gelding is fearful, and will eye things for days before 
    approaching, even in his own paddock.  
    

    Mine seem to notice everything. Sometimes, one or another will sort at
    something that I've moved in the barn while were out at pasture. They
    seem to think it somehow came to life and moved itself...After a quick
    snort & sniff to convince themselves it's still the same ole still life
    object it's always been, they go on about their business. Usually...
    
    There was that time we rode out to a neighbor's hay field which we did
    about 3 times a week. This time, the farmer had a fodder chopper parked
    at a different spot in the field. 
    
    Ellie just froze! She thought it was the Loch Ness monster! If you've 
    never seen one of those choppers, They're enormous machines with a 
    chute coming out the top that looks kinda like a swans neck. This one
    was green so it *HAD* to be Nessie... So, she froze. Her heart rate 
    doubled. Her breathing was more like puppy panting...
    
    Me? Of course, I was sitting on her laughing myself silly! Jan was on
    my sensible mare, Charity who took one look at it and said, "What's the
    big deal?" Eventually, we got Ellie to turn around and walk away from
    "Nessie" but it took a minute or 2...

Perhaps I have been lucky to have fairly level headed horses 
or the fact that my preference has been for Quarter Horses. 
My experiences have led me to believe that training and 
handling has a major influence over the natural body language
of horses.

I have found their curiosity fascinating many times particularly
if I want to ride and they don't want to be caught.  It is usually
just a matter of making an unusual noise or doing something
different to "ignore them" and they can't resist having a stickybeak.
    
There is virtually nothing my horses won't attempt if I ask
them to do it.  They may not do it well, but will try and I
have found this a bonus in Trail classes where a judge might
try to throw in something tricky.

When training I try not to push the next step and really reward
achievement, it makes for slow but solid results.  Of course
they have their days but doesn't everyone?  It's all part of 
the learning curve for both them and me.

If anyone has any recent articles on training methods such
as "RIDE WITH YOUR MIND" (forget authors name)
or written by trainers such as Pat Pirelli, I would appreciate
some references.



Angela

The_Land_Down_Under