Conference noted::equitation

Article 38733 of rec.equestrian:
From: [email protected] (AMY TETERVIN)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: vaccine alert
Date: 27 May 1994 09:46 EST


Unfortunately the states also have their hand in restricting access to 
vaccines- in NJ it is now illegal to buy vaccines via catalog. A lot of the 
catalogs still will ship most of the vaccines except for rabies. The vet lobby 
certainly is growing greedy - it has cooled relationships between clients and 
vets. I will certainly contact my 'representatives' in Washington but I think 
the vets have more influence than we do. Let's try anyway. -Amy 

Article 38787 of rec.equestrian:
From: [email protected] (MikeB15600)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Vaccines
Date: 28 May 1994 00:48:01 -0400

I'm not sure the greed thing is the real issue. Have you ever seen a
beautiful 1000 lb horse drop dead 15 minutes after vaccination?? Do
you know what to do in the few short minutes between the onset of
anaphylaxis and death?? Do you have the drugs and the 8 years of
education to use them?? Do you know that some vaccines are not
effective if they are not given in very specific locations?? Do you
know that some vaccines can cause the very disease you are trying to
protect against?? I'm not really sure you understand the reasons why
veterinarians and the federal government don't want you to have
access to vaccines; that is the best reason why you should not have
access to them. In reality, when all is said and done, the average
large animal veterinarian only makes a few dollars on a vaccination,
so greed is not what its all about. Time to look beyond the end of
your nose.

Michael A. Ball, DVM
College of Veterinary Medicine
The University of Georgia

Article 38823 of rec.equestrian:
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Vaccines

Michael A. Ball, DVM writes:
> Have you ever seen a beautiful 1000 lb horse drop dead 15 minutes after vaccination??
Have you ever seen a horse die of rabies or tetanus?  Please don't make people
afraid to vaccinate their horses!
> Do you know what to do in the few short minutes between the onset of
> anaphylaxis and death?? 
Yes. 
> Do you have the drugs and the 8 years of education to use them??
I don't need "8 years of education" to give a shot of epinephrine, which I
always have on hand when doing vaccinations. I've done hundreds of vaccinations
and never used it: the risk is small.  Procaine penicillin is more dangerous.
> Do you know that some vaccines are not effective if they are not given in very
> specific locations??  
Yes.
> Do you know that some vaccines can cause the very disease you are trying to
> protect against?? 
Yes.

I think that many, if not most, of the horses in my area would receive no shots
if the owners had to call a vet.  Very few of the cats would be taken to the vet
for a rabies shot.

> I'm not really sure you understand the reasons why
> veterinarians and the federal government don't want you to have
> access to vaccines; that is the best reason why you should not have
> access to them.

This is one of the most arrogant statements I have ever seen.  

> The average large animal veterinarian only makes a few dollars on a vaccination,
> so greed is not what its all about.

Rabies vaccine is about a dollar a dose and the needle and syringe about $.15.
Do you do rabies shots for $3.15?

Mr. Ball's proposed law would greatly reduce the rate of vaccination and
increase disease while only very slightly decreasing the incidence of bad side
effects.  We give every horse (and every cat) on the farm a free rabies shot
every year.  We couldn't do this if we had to pay a vet to give the shots, and
we would lose boarders if we required them to pay for it.  Our vet would sell us
the vaccines for only slightly more than we pay the mail order places, but
others aren't so lucky (they may have Mr. Ball for a vet).

Actually, the law mentioned in the original post seemed to affect only the
single dose products.  We would be largely unaffected, but our neighbors would
not be able to buy a 5-way shot at Fleet-Farm for $5.50.  Many of our 4-H'ers
would stop coming to the fair, and some of their horses would get tetanus.  Have
you ever seen a horse die of tetanus, Mr. Ball?

We have worked with a dozen or so vets over the years.  None of them have told
us we should not vaccinate our animals ourselves.

-- 

John Hasler uunet!hasler!root  (use this address, not the one in the header)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI 54740

Article 38848 of rec.equestrian:
From: [email protected] (Lori Kowal)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Vaccines - !!FLAME BEWARE!!
Date: 30 May 1994 19:18:04 GMT

A number of the points Dr. Ball makes are absolutely valid. He sounds like a
caring individual.

But aside from that. When vets STOP charging $40.00 for a visit, and
$18.00 for each shot then maybe people will stop buying and giving
their own shots! I know about overhead, I know about the benefits you
have to pay. I've got the same expenses. 

And before you chastise the majority of people that really care about their
horses why not go blast some race track people who give every drug and
do every treatment under the sun, legal and illegal without a vet! How
do I know, cause I worked at the track! 

And don't hand me the *&^% about the profit you make. I buy my vaccines
for $6.95 and get charged $18 when the vet does it, plus the call charge.
I'm sure there are vets who do not grossly overcharge, but I only know
of a handful.

Article 38882 of rec.equestrian:
From: [email protected] (Edgington, George)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: RE: Vaccines
Date: 31 May 1994 11:36:37 -0400

>I'm not really sure you understand the reasons why
>veterinarians and the federal government don't want you to have
>access to vaccines; that is the best reason why you should not have
>access to them.

What ARE some of the reasons?  I have been trying do do some of
the basic health care work for my animals for many years now,
with no ill effects.

>In reality, when all is said and done, the average
>large animal veterinarian only makes a few dollars on a vaccination,
>so greed is not what its all about.

The vet may only make a few dollars on the vaccination, but he/she
might charge $40 for a farm call.  My expenses might be $10 for a
self administered vaccine as opposed to $50 dollars for the same
vaccine administered by a vet.

>Time to look beyond the end of
>your nose.
>
>Michael A. Ball, DVM
>College of Veterinary Medicine
>The University of Georgia
Are there some practical seminars offered to horsemen through the
various colleges to assist us in learning the proper techniques
     (vaccinations, palpation, etc)???

Article 38888 of rec.equestrian:
From: [email protected] (Rebecca Hayhurst)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Vaccines
Date: 31 May 1994 16:08:41 GMT

I agree about the need to be able to vacinate my own animals.  With a lot of 
animals (many who "can with the place" and are half wild), no horse trailer, 
and a $45.00 call fee for the vet to drive out, it is the only way that 
adequqte health care for my animals is feasible.  As a former nurse, I 
resent the arogant assumption that I am to unable to safely give injections.

Luckly my vet doesn't insist on giving shots and all care himself.  This type
of legislation will just continue to trend to make having horses ( or any
animal) only a possiblily for the very well off!

Rebecca

Article 38903 of rec.equestrian:
From: Kristen Anderson <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Vaccines
Date: 31 May 1994 18:12:04 GMT

In article <[email protected]> MikeB15600,
[email protected] writes:
>anaphylaxis and death?? Do you have the drugs and the 8 years of
>education to use them?? Do you know that some vaccines are not

Do you know that sometimes the local vet comes and does more harm then
good?  Do you know that even with 8 years of education vets still cannot
be right in every situation?  That doesn't mean that everyone is going to
trailer his horse to the nearest veterinary college every time he needs a
vet.  Due to economic necessity, we compromise.

BTW.  I've asked 4 of our local vets (who probably have 50 years
experience between them) if they have ever seen an anaphylactic reaction
in a horse (from vaccination).  None of them had.  I figure my horses
chances are good in spite of my tender ministrations : ).

Article 38913 of rec.equestrian:
From: [email protected] (Vern Stant)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Vaccine Alert!
Date: 31 May 1994 20:22:34 GMT

> "A Needling Notion"

I'm going to call my senator and congressman and the American Veterinary  
Medical Association. My vet as never acted like he didn't want me to  
provide for my horse. We have had to inject antibiotics per the vet's  
instructions, every day from time to time without the vet present. A horse  
requires so much care, (hoof trimming, sheath cleaning, teeth floating,  
worming) that the cost could get too high if we can't do it ourselves. I  
guess we are lucky to have the vet we have.

Thanks for the alert! I wish the government would stay out of my hobbies.

Vern

PS. I know an MD that makes a million a year. See what can happen? What do  
you think Clinton would do about the high cost of HorseCare? Clinton has  
said that a part of the solution to the high cost of human health care is  
to not require an 8 year educated person to provide routine health care.
 
--
Vern Stant              
Hand Held Products, Inc.
804.784.3090 voice      
804.784.3147 FAX        

Article 38918 of rec.equestrian:
From: [email protected] (John D'Addamio)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Vaccines
Date: 31 May 1994 22:08:41 GMT


In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MikeB15600) writes:
|>I'm not sure the greed thing is the real issue. Have you ever seen a
|>beautiful 1000 lb horse drop dead 15 minutes after vaccination?? 

No. Neither has my vet who has been practicing for over 35 years. He says
that the only anaphylactic shock reaction he's ever seen was from penicillin.
Have *you* ever seen a horse go into anaphylactic shock from vaccination?

|>Do
|>you know what to do in the few short minutes between the onset of
|>anaphylaxis and death?? Do you have the drugs and the 8 years of
|>education to use them??

Yes, I do know how to administer epinephrine and keep it on hand. However,
it does not take 8 years education to administer the drug. I know many vets
who routinely have their assistant give injections of all sorts. Many of them
have no education beyond high school. 

|>Do you know that some vaccines are not
|>effective if they are not given in very specific locations?? 

Sure, that's why they come with labels and package inserts. I can read.

|>Do you
|>know that some vaccines can cause the very disease you are trying to
|>protect against??

Sure. How would having a vet give the vaccination change that?

|>I'm not really sure you understand the reasons why
|>veterinarians and the federal government don't want you to have
|>access to vaccines; that is the best reason why you should not have
|>access to them. 

Dr Ball, you are an arrogant person to speak for all veterinarians! My 
veterinarian has never suggested that only he and and members of his
profession are qualified to give vaccinations. In fact, every veterinarian
I have ever dealt with encouraged their clients to do their own vaccinations
whenever practical. Many have even told their clients that they could either
buy the vaccines from them or mail order which ever was cheaper.

Come to think of it. Several of the mail order places I've used over the years
are run *BY* veterinarians. Surely, they don't support your position!

|>In reality, when all is said and done, the average
|>large animal veterinarian only makes a few dollars on a vaccination,
|>so greed is not what its all about. Time to look beyond the end of
|>your nose.

Look beyond the end of your own nose, Dr.! The simple fact is that not
everybody with a horse can afford to have a vet vaccinate their horse.
The veterinarian's overhead essentially triples the cost of vaccinations.

I have never had a veterinarian charge me less than $12 for a vaccination. 
Nowadays, it's more like $15-$18 plus a $35 fee for showing up. By the time 
I have a vet vaccinate for rabies, PHF, Flu-encephalitis-tetanus, Rhino and 
strangles, I'm looking at a bill of $75 to $90 per horse plus the call fee. 
For our 3 horses, that's about $300 for just their annual shots. If one boosts
for flu and rhino during show season, it's another call plus $18 per horse 
which is about $90 total. 

I can buy the same vaccines our vet uses and vaccinate all 3 horses for about
$120 including the flu-rhino boosters. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that
vets are greedy. Their profit may well be only $2 per shot. It's just that I
can't afford to pay for all a vet's overhead for something I am capable of 
doing. 

John

Article 38922 of rec.equestrian:
From: [email protected] (Vern Stant)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Vaccine Alert! Va. Senate Phone #
Date: 31 May 1994 20:57:27 GMT

In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Melinda L.  
Gierisch) writes:
> "Listen up!  New, proposed FDA regulations would severely limit your  
right
> to purchase equine vaccines.....
> write/call your senator or congressman, and say you're opposed to Animal
> and Plant Health Inspections Service Proposed Rule 9-CFR Part 112.  You  
also
> can call the American Veterinary Medical Association to state your  
opinion
> at (708) 925-8070."

If you feel inspired and live in Virginia, your senators are:

 D VA Robb, Charles S.           1-202-224-4024
 R VA Warner, John W.            1-202-224-2023

It can't hurt! They count the number of calls for and against. It is a  
routine call: they get them all the time. Remember, even if you use a vet  
now, someday you might live in the middle of nowhere and a vet call will  
be extremely expensive. And, someday you might not be able to get your vet  
in an emergency because he is out in the middle of nowhere giving routine  
vaccinations. Or he will get to you a little too late. 

Someone voiced a concern about proper use of vaccines. Instructions are  
available. It's how vets get their information. Diabetics inject  
themselves. I saw a sig: "don't use whilst stupid" and I think it applies  
here! 

You will need to know your district to get your congressman's number.
I would limit the distribution to Va. but I don't know if the grazer will  
do it, and some people who are residents of Va. may be at school in  
another state. 

Vern Stant              

Article 38924 of rec.equestrian:
From: [email protected] (Anne Judge)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Vaccines
Date: 31 May 1994 17:07:09 GMT

MikeB15600 writes
-. . . Have you ever seen a
-beautiful 1000 lb horse drop dead 15 minutes after vaccination?? Do
-you know what to do in the few short minutes between the onset of
-anaphylaxis and death?? Do you have the drugs and the 8 years of
-education to use them??

All well & good, but as I remember it the vet would have been 10 minutes down  
the road & out of reach by then. 

--
Anne Judge      Danbury, CT

    I think that perhaps you ought to get your priorities right here. 
    You've got horses, you know the expense, you *chose* to take it on. 
    Over here (UK) we have to give annual injections, okay so there aren't
    as many as you have to give but we call the vet out.  My horse is due
    for her flu and tetanus jabs, she has them both done at the same time
    and at a guestimate this year it'll cost something like #15 for the vet
    to come out and a further #10-15 per injection (roughly).  You can then
    whack VAT on that and no one here quibbles.
    
    I personally would not welcome the idea of vaccinating the animals
    yourself unless you have professional training (like the nurse, vet
    etc.)
    
    Like I said, you choose to take the animals on then you sacrifice other
    things 'cos of the cost, enjoy it while it's cheap for you.
    
    Liz

    I have to agree with the others in this note.  It's extremely
    expensive to have one horse vaccinated, never mind 3 or 4!  Where
    I keep one of my horses, we do all our own vaccinations and have
    done so for years.  I buy the shots from my vet and give them
    myself to the other horse, so he has a record of what she's had.
    My vet is very good about doing whatever he can to save me money,
    and I also don't expect him to come out twice a day to give
    antibiotics if a horse is sick!!  I learned to give shots when I
    was 15 years old and had a horse that was very ill and required 4
    injections a day.  
    
    Linda

    Liz,
    
    Are you saying that in the UK it's already the case that only a vet can
    give vaccinations? If so, my sympathies. If not, you're right in saying
    that you knew the expense and chose to have the vet give the shots.
    
    Are you saying that we should just "shut up and take it lying down?"
    I think you've missed the point. Yes, we know chose to have
    horses. But, many people have based their decision on what the costs
    are *now* with do-it-yourself injections whereever possible. Many of
    those people simply don't have 3 times as much money to spend on
    vaccinations. 
    
    The problem with that is that one doesn't *have* to give vaccinations!
    There's no law that says you must give vaccinations X, Y and Z. So, if 
    you can't give them yourself and it will cost 3 times as much to have a
    vet do it as it cists now, some people won't vaccinate.
    
    That's increased risk for everybody! Even those who can afford to pay
    the vet $35(#20) fee and $18(#12) per injection...
    
    John

On February 21, 1995, USDA rule no. 9CFR,112 goes into effect. That rule
requires all animal vaccines to be sold in the manufacturer's original
packaging. Because most vaccines are shipped in packages of 25 doses, this 
rule will preclude selling single doses of vaccines.

If you vaccinate your own horses, this rule will probably cost you a lot
of money. For example, our equine vet charges $52 to vaccinate one horse 
with the recommended annual boosters against flu, Eastern & Western 
encephalitis, tetanus, rhino and Potomac horse fever. He also charges a 
$35 call fee to show up. I currently buy the same vaccines(and I mean the 
same brand, the same combination, etc.) through catalogs for less than $21. 

Most veterinarians recommend flu & rhino boosters every 3 months for horses
that travel(i.e. shows, trail rides with strangers, clinics, etc). For
the flu & rhino booster, our vet charges $22 per horse plus the $35 call fee. 
I buy the same vaccine for less than $8 per horse. 

Because of this new rule, it will cost us an additional $359 per year to 
vaccinate 3  horses. I'm afraid that such cost increases will cause many 
horse owners to stop vaccinating which will in turn increase the risk
of disease outbreaks. 

The cost ratios for dog vaccinations are even  worse: local veterinarians 
charge $25 for the recommended annual vaccinations. I buy the same vaccines 
for less than $5.

This new rule will only affect people owning small numbers of animals! 
Namely, you and me! For example, if all vaccines were shipped in 25 dose 
packages and I owned 10 horses, I could buy a 25 dose package and throw away 
15 doses!  I would still save money because of the $35 call fee and the fact 
that I don't have to take time off from work to meet the vet.

I think this rule is silly. We have been vaccinating our own animals for 
nearly 20 years. Our veterinarian at the time taught us how to do it. 
We have bought vaccines from at least 6 different suppliers. Not once 
in 20 years have we had vaccine arrive that was not properly packed or 
that did not have an accompanying copy of the manufacturer's instruction 
sheet. What do they think they are protecting us from?

If you want to express an opinion or request that USDA require vaccine 
manufacturers to offer vaccines in smaller quantities, write to:


          U.S.D.A.
          A.P.H.I.S.
          John Payne, Director
          Federal Building
          6505 Belcrest Rd.
          Hyattsville, MD 20782

�  <<< Note 1893.15 by DECWET::JDADDAMIO "Seattle:Life in the espressolane" >>>
�                          -< Buy your vaccines SOON! >-

Wanted to make one comment here - buy your vaccines soon but don't keep 
them past their expiration dates either.  Many medications do change and 
you could be risking a problem with injecting an expired vaccine.

�sheet. What do they think they are protecting us from?

As for this comment - IMHO, the gov't doesn't have enough to do with their 
time :)

(in addition, with limits on budgets, there is only so much $$ they have to 
waste so I personally suspect that gov't in general spends alot of time 
legislating nonsense that doesn't cost $$ since they don't have any (and 
they've gotta do *something* with their time to justify their existance)).

In case you can't tell, government regulation and legislation isn't high on 
my personal favorite list :)

There is an easy way around this new regulation. The manufacturer need
only make vaccines in smaller packages to sell. According to a quick blurb
I've read, several companies are already planning to do so. So a quick note
or call to the vaccine companies would probably help them decide whether to
change their packaging so that smaller orders of the vaccine can be
sold to the public.


Vicky