Conference noted::equitation

    
    B.t.w.  I *DO* lunge him before riding him.  

If you have lost some confidence, I recommend saving up the pennies and 
sending him off to 'camp' for a month.  A short time with a professional will 
cure most rearing (if it is not due to physical problems).

I may be out of line with several people in this conference, but I really 
believe that for something like rearing it is not wrong to use a lot of force 
to get your agenda across.  A good solid crop between the ears works wonders.
But again, if you are afraid of his reaction, take him to a professional.

Just my two cents

Marsha

Hi

I think the first thing you should do is to try and find out what the
cause of the problem is.  From your descriptions, it sounds to me like your 
horse could be trying to tell you he has some pain or discomfort, - possibly 
a sore back/mouth.  I would firstly get your horse checked out by your vet 
(back/teeth etc). Secondly, get your saddle and bridle checked for correct 
fit.  Horses change shape so much in the early years/plus when they are 
getting fit/muscled - your saddle may no longer fit and could be pinching 
somewhere.  Incorrectly fitted tack is like wearing a pair shoes that are 
too small! - first they pinch and then after a while it goes numb! - this 
could be why he 'seems' to get better!!  Finally, if there is nothing wrong 
physically and the tack fits well,  I would get help from an experienced 
instructor - to take a look a your riding/handling skills and your horses 
way of going. 
At 4/5, most youngsters have been know to go through the 'I refuse to 
cooperate/see how far I can push it stage' (their 'teenage years' my 
instructor calls it!) - most episodes will pass unnoticed and you can sail 
through.   BUT if your horse rears because it's being naughty/stubborn I 
would seriously pass it on for further assessment with people that are 
experienced in handling this situation.  It can be very dangerous - this 
sort of horse is capable of ANYTHING!!!! - and doesn't care who gets hurt - 
just about getting his own way!
The other two situations could be that your horse doesn't understand what he 
is being asked do.  This may be a case of, with the help of your instructor, 
re-covering the early stages of his training, keeping sessions short and not 
asking too much too soon and being very correct with your instructions with 
lots of praise when things go right.  Or he could just be 'VERY EXCITABLE' - 
BUT this is NOT an excuse to be dangerous and should be very clearly put 
right!!!  However, I personally feel that from your descriptions it sounds 
like a physical problem - So give the vet a ring today and see what he/she 
thinks!  Gook luck - JO... on a lovely spring day in UK - who of course 
would rather be out riding than sat behind a desk!!!! 

    
    If he is not in pain or discomfort.. then.. this is what I did.. it's
    a bit crude...but it worked.
    
    I filled a ballon w/water and when he reared I broke he ballon on
    top of my horses head!  He stood stunned!  but he never reared
    again!
    
    The second horse I had would rear everytime I lead him.  So I got
    a stong halter (one that wont break) and a stong roap.  I ran the
    roap (a very long roap) in a kinda pully system way.. when I tried
    to lead him and he took off up in the air....I had another person
    on the other end start the pully process.... this horse could not
    go up anymore... he almost fell over trying to rear (I had him all
    padded up to help prevent injury)...he finally gave up and he 
    he is the best leader there is... now.
    
    Good luck
    
    

    I also, in my younger braver years, broke a horse of rearing with the
    water baloon method.  It was a technique used by my grandfather and it
    worked.  But I and older wiser and break much more easily these days
    and look for a safer means.  The topic discussing John Lyons may be a
    good place to start.  His method of teaching a horse to lower its head
    and thus relax it's head is an excellent exercise which can be used to
    correct the problem.  I have tried this
    method and although it takes a little longer I feel it is a much safer
    method for correcting a very dangerous problem.
    
    I am not sure which one of the John Lyons videos deal with this
    problem but I beleive it is either number six in the series of six or
    the Video titled "Round Pen Reasoning" 
                          

    
    Don't dismiss the old ways so fast.  I sent my horse to a very
    respected well known trailer, who learned alot of his skill from
    John Lyons.  The trainer could not cure my horse from rearing.
    
    I tried the new way 1st.  After 6mo and alot of $$$$ later and not 
    even comming close to working, I tried my old way...it worked the
    1st time out!
    
    every horse is differant and you need to handle each one in there
    own way.
    
    

    ON page 85 in the April 94 issue of Horse and Rider is an article on
    just that subject. " If you're tired of your horse's "up, up, and away"
    routine, you're not the lone ranger.  John Lyons rides to your rescue."
    

    Hi, I'm new to equitation notes but old to horses.  I studied them at
    Cal Poly SLO.  The best thing I've seen used for rearing horses is to
    use gravity.  Get the largest rider you can find (that is accomplished)
    and put him on for a long day of riding.  Every time the horse tries to 
    rear you stand up and lean forward and bop him between his eyes with 
    your fist.  He soon learns it is painful and exhausting.
    
    I had an Arab I was training that flipped over while I was mounting so
    I also was very eager to find an answer.  He almost trashed a new
    Stubben saddle I had just purchased for him.  A great place to do this
    is somewhere the horse has to use his rear end like a long hill.
    I'd put about as many miles as possible on the horse depending onthe 
    age and bone development of course.  It's going to take a couple weeks
    to make sure he won't do it again.  Many of the old cowboys use sticks
    on the head but all that does is make him head shy.  A firm bop with
    your hand will pop him into reality but not hurt him any worse than it
    hurts you.
    
    What ever you do, do not let a light weight rider kick him forward to
    get him down because all he will do is flip over.
    
    I'd also recommending praying before you get on.
    
    Good luck
    Raul

    I used to also use my hand, you have to stand up like you said in order
    to use it, and you can't really hurt the horse without hurting your
    hand.  I hit them a few times between the ears and yell and scream at
    them a lot and make them turn several circles with their nose bent
    around while booting them on.  This was when I was a lot younger and
    probably more foolish, but it scared them half to death and it always
    seemed to be a quick cure. Of course these were not frightened horses,
    they were just spoiled, I wouldn't try it on a frightened horse,
    there's a big difference.
    
    Sharon

    I also used the water balloon technique and it worked wonders.  I heard
    some people also use an egg.  I guess the horse thinks he hit his head and
    is bleeding when he feels the water running down.  (That's what I;ve
    heard.)  My horse was a 4 year old when I bought him and he was very
    green.  For him I think it was his way of trying to get me off his
    back.  I think a lot of young horses go through this.
    
    I would agree with a previous noter regarding checking the tack and
    making sure your horse is not in any kind of pain first.  
    
    I know how terrifying it is when your horse has a habit of rearing, it
    seems like when your riding your just waiting for him to go up.  I hope
    you find a cure!  Try the balloon it seems to work. 
    
    Good Luck and keep us posted.
                                                            

My TB went through a rearing spell one spring. One evening I set out to work
on the rearing problem. The first time he went up, I grabbed a chunk of mane
with the reins and my left hand, leaned forward and slapped him right between
the ears (no very hard but enough to be felt) with my right.

He was so stunned  - when he came back down he just stood there with his legs
sort of straddled and didn't move. I think it scared the daylights out of him.
We trotted a couple of circles and ended on a good note and that was that - he
never did it again.

A couple of people had told me to try this, but I was really skeptical. I had
tried all sorts of other techniques, I had been through the whole - ill fitting
tack, back pain, wolf tooth check-out routine.

This was my last resort and I was really surprised that it worked. Now I am a 
believer (and training another baby). It is definitely in my tool kit for the 
next time.

    I have a 7 year old mare who rears when I make her do anything she does
    not want to, She gives a little sign when she is going to rear,kinda 
    dances around on her front feet, as soon as she does this I power rein
    her in a circle and we will continue to go thru the area where she
    first acted up back and forth until she goes thru without any problems.
    knock on wood... So far the last few rides she has not reared. 
    
    
    
    			Karen

    re: 12...  Karen, that's exactly what my gelding does.  There's been
    so many great ideas here in this note for me to try.  So far since
    my accident with him, I've only been dumped once, which he started
    that dancing around and went half way up, so I bailed off.  I didn't
    get back on him until he worked up a sweat from lungeing.   Now I am
    going to try the John Lyons technique.  I don't know if I'm brave
    enough to wait for him to start rearing again to do the balloon.  
    Although, I've heard in the past that that truly works.  With my
    luck the balloon wouldn't break.   
    But I'll keep you guys posted on my progress with him.  I'm hoping
    by the end of June he will be "rear proof".     
    
    

    My boyfriend has a 2 year old quarterhorse.  He takes great care
    of the horse in feeding, nutrients, hay etc., but when it comes
    to training he doesn't have time..he has so many other things to
    in his life...new business, part-time job, cars etc.  I have a fair
    bit of experience with horses...I owned a thoroghbred that I showed
    for 4 years and I now have a 5 weeks old Hanovarian/Thoroughbred
    cross.  
    
    Anyway, I told him to start lunging the horse lightly to teach him
    commands and discipline etc. on a wide circle (the horse had been
    lunged lightly a few times before)...the horse (STALLION) would
    rear every time he was upset or unwilling...and when I say rear,
    I mean straight up for several seconds and swinging the front feet
    !  I told my boyfriend not to allow him to do this and to show him
    some kind of dissapproval...but he won't listen to me...he just
    keeps telling the horse to move on !!  I told him that this would
    be telling the horse that its OK...when he says "walk on"...the
    horse trots fast...he lets him go !  I am standing furious in the
    background...its his horse and he wants to do it this way..he's
    afraid to be to TOUGH with the horse...I think the horse is more
    a PET to him...I can't stand watching him train this way...it's
    wrong in my books !! I am going to give him a copy of this notes
    file so he can read how WRONG it is to rear !!  On top of that,
    sometimes when you are in the paddock and he knows your getting
    his food or whatever...he will rear or try to right there infront
    of you...he's not being worked or anything..he's just standing there..I
    guess he becomes impatient for his food, thats usually when he'll
    do it, but my boyfriend just frowns and does nothing and I always
    give him my opinion...and he gets upsets and tells me that its not
    my business !!  Anyway, if I could get some feedback as to the
    seriousness and danger or possibilities of this situation...I will
    give it to him without telling him that I asked for the advice !!
    At least he will read it !!!
    
    Thank you...all your opinions will be appreciated !
    
    Ayn

    
    
    re: .14
    
    Ayn,
    
    Your boyfriend does have a point.  It is his horse and he can do what
    he likes with him.
    
    However...
    
    A large part of the problem may be that your boyfriend's horse has not
    been gelded.  Hormones can make a stud unmanageable.  If he were my
    horse, I'd have him cut right away.  It's also a very lonely life being
    a stallion, and they require (IMHO) much more handling and care than a
    gelding, or mare.  
    
    I used to ride a horse that was not handled much and not gelded until he
    was six.  Due to the fact that he couldn't have a pasture mate and was not
    handled often, he became unmanageable and consequently quite dangerous
    because his owner was afraid to go near him.  He used to attack people
    that walked by his paddock and soon had to be enclosed in a six foot
    solid fence you could barely peek through.  They just threw food at him
    and I think all he wanted was a little attention and companionship, but
    neglect and his hormones made him a terror.  Once he was gelded, by a new
    owner, he became calm enough for them to start training him.  I rode him 
    many years later and although he still had a few relapses to his old bad
    habits, he grew increasingly more and more confident in himself and
    came to trust me the more I worked with him.
    
    It's never too late, but it's a heck of a lot easier to nip a bad habit
    in the bud, than to get rid of a habit that has been going on for
    years.
    
    There is one stallion at the barn I board at and I have noticed that
    his owner is very diligent in frequenting the barn and gives him a lot
    of attention.  It seems to be a real pain to deal with as she rides
    when no one else is around and has to take all sorts of precautions. 
    He's a real screamer, too.  Not my idea of a fun time.  You can be so
    much more flexible (not to mention, relaxed) owning a mare, or gelding.
    
    Simone                                       
    

    Please let me know when you plan to tell your boyfriend to geld his
    stallion.  I want to be out of town that day. ;}
    
    Granma::JWood

    He may not like it, but I have to agree that gelding this horse is
    a very very good idea.  IMO, unless you are an experienced breeder,
    have an absolutely top quality horse, the facilities to keep him in,
    the experience to deal with him, the time to dedicate to his
    training and the clientele (interested mare owners) to make a breeding
    program profitable, there is no reason to have a stallion.  Any lesser
    situation is unfair to the horse and dangerous to both the horse and
    owner.  I know there are some non-breeding stallions out there who
    seem to do just fine as pleasure/show horses, some are even handled
    by kids, but these are exceptions.  Rearing is a very dangerous habit.  
    This youngster needs some serious training, and soon, whether gelded or 
    not. His youth is no excuse for this behavior, rearing is inappropriate 
    for a horse of any age or sex. 
    
    My neighbors a few years ago brought home a 4 yr old Morgan stallion,
    with no intentions of gelding him.  He was green broke, nippy, and 
    pushy in hand.  They figured they could work with him.  They also
    figured they'd keep him in a tiny two stall barn next to a TB mare
    with only a bar stall grid separating them, and only one paddock.  They
    rotated the horses in the paddock, so the stallion was stall-bound
    about 1/2 the day and both horses were in all night.  The first week
    of this situation he went right through the fence when turned out
    to get back in the barn with 'his' mare.  He screamed at all hours
    of the day and night, and their attempts at riding him were
    disasterous.  He was gelding a month after arriving, sent out for
    training, and turned into a real sweetie! He's now a 6 yr old with
    an impressive show record in the making, great on the trails, and
    handled by a 9 year old with ease.  He's even a horse that I would
    consider for myself now, and I'm VERY fussy! 
    
    On the other hand, I have a friend with a 2 year old stallion who
    appears to be coming along very nicely.  He's a bit mouthy, and can
    be pushy if you let him, but with firm handling mellows right out.
    He's not yet broken to saddle or harness.  He's also going out
    for professional training next month, and in spite of him apparent
    good manners, will be gelding next fall if he does not pass the
    breed testing required by his breed to stand as a top of the line
    stud.  
    
    Just my opinion of course, Id imagine there are plenty of people
    who will tell you it's okay to have a stallion for other than
    breeding purposes. :-)
      

    If he won't listen to a more experienced person who knows him, why
    would he listen to us? I'd recommend a new boyfriend.
    
    Do you really want a guy with so little for brains to be the father of
    your children?

    As with most horse owners, they are not animals they are out kids... 
    however, they are also too strong not to have control over. Lack of
    control may cause the owner or the horse to be hurt. I have a 2 year
    old who , much like your boyfriends horse, has a mind of his own. When
    he was being lunged, the would do smart things such as buck, run wild
    or challenge me. I picked up a light stud chain. (I personally do not 
    like to see a chain in a horses mouth) I ran the chain over his nose.
    We went for a few walks, when he walked in front of me or stopped at
    his own will, I gave the chain a slight tug. At first he was very 
    surprised, soon he figured it out. I then attached the lunge line to
    the chain and gave him his command to walk out... as usual, he walked a
    little and started to run and be a bu__, I gave the chain a tug, (now
    that he was familiar with what that was) It only took a few times for
    him to figure out that when I do not pay attention, my nose hurts. I do
    not use the chain often anymore, only on days that he wants to go back
    to bu__ hood, then its a nice way to remind him who can be the bigger
    Bu__.
    
    			KS

    THANKS FOR THE ADVICE, I PRINTED THE ENTIRE NOTES AND READ IT OUT
    LOUD TO HIM...I EXCLUDED MY REQUEST THOUGH !  HE LISTENED BECAUSE
    I TOLD HIM THAT THESE NOTES WERE FROM EXPERIENCED PEOPLE WITH HORSES
    AND REAL HORSE EXPERIENCES.  HE TURNED AWAY FROM ME SLIGHTLY WHILE I WAS
    TALKING...BUT I'M SURE HE HEARD 90% OF IT.  HE IS VERY STUBBORN!
    
    HE DIDN'T SAY MUCH ABOUT THE WHOLE THING, JUST "YEH, THANKS FOR
    THE INFO., I APPRECIATE IT".  I ASKED IF HE WAS GOING TO TRY ANYTHING
    DIFFERENT WITH THE HORSE AND HE SAID THAT HE MIGHT CONSIDER THE
    "BALLOON WITH WATER TECHNIQUE"...BUT WHAT HE SAYS AND DOES ARE TWO
    DIFFERENT THINGS SOMETIMES !!  
    
    THANKS FOR HELPING ME AND THE HORSE !!  HE STILL WON'T GELD THE
    HORSE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES....BY THE WAY, THIS HORSE IS LOCATED
    IN A SUBURBAN RESIDENTIAL AREA !  JUST DOWN THE ROAD FROM HIS PARENT'S
    PLACE...CONVIENCE IS THEY KEY FOR HIM.
    
    ALL ADVICE WAS HELPFUL...ANYTHING ELSE YOU MIGHT WANT TO ADD WOULD
    BE MORE THAN WELCOME !!
    
    AYN

    RE:14
    
    Ayn,
    
    Try to explain to your boyfriend that what he sees now in
    lunging the horse will be EXACTLY what he gets when he rides
    him unless the horse is taught all of his commands NOW.
    
    After all, this is the purpose of lunging in the first place!
    Why bother to do it at all if the horse is going to do what 
    ever he pleases???
    
    Please tell your boyfriend that although he does not want to
    be "tough" to his horse, the horse will not hesitate to seriously 
    hurt or even fatally wound your boyfriend if it means he can "escape" 
    what is being asked of him. Horses don't think like people, "if you 
    be nice to me I will be nice to you". It just doesn't work that way.
    
    Horses need guidance and discipline, and will be unruly if 
    allowed, and a 1000+ lb animal can snuff out your life before you
    can react! You can instill obedience in them and at the same
    time, they will still respect you if it is done with kindness.
    
    I've owned a stallion for the past 6 years. He tried to be boss
    a few times and we quickly settled that. Some times it involved
    a few taps from a whip, but now all I have to do is give him a
    loud NOOOOO and he IMMEDIATLY responds, and the nice thing about 
    it is that I know he likes me!
    
    I'd be happy to converse with you off line if you would like.
    
    Tina       

    Tina,
    
    Thank you so much for you advice...is is really refreshing to hear
    this.
    
    I would very much like to speak with you on the phone, my DTN number
    is 612-4818 (Ottawa, Ontario Canada). 
    
    Please leave me your number.  
    
    This will help me because I think the problem is also in talking
    to him, he does not listen to me ever...and he seems to get upset
    when I try to make a suggestion that does always agree with his..maybe
    I am too pushy because I am very much a perfectionist...I just want
    to do it right and help him with his horse...what is so wrong with
    that !  I think my problems with him in this way are affecting
    everything I do with him...anyway, I am getting off topic, I guess
    I just need someone to listen, I am really having problems.
    
    Thank you so much for everything.
    
    Ayn

    Tina,
    
    Sorry, my DTN number is 621-4818 (NOT 612).  Oops!!!!!
         
    Ayn !
    

    Ayn,
    
    Tell your boyfriend to start listening to you.  Take it from
    me, someone that had a horse go straight up and over, and fell
    right on top of me.  They thought I'd never walk again.  But
    anyway..... I'm happy to say, that my horse is not rearing anymore.
    Karen Bibeau was nice enough to let me borrow her John Lyons 
    video on how to stop your horse from rearing.  It takes patience,
    and does take a while, but my horse has not even tried to lift
    his head now.  I am still using the John Lyons technique on him,
    and probably will never stop, but I'm am so pleased with his
    method.  I believe the only way a horse respects a person is
    definately discipline, patience, and agressiveness.  They are
    too big to treat them like little puppies.
    
    Good luck with your boyfriend!!  (sorry, but I have to agree with
    what John said in an earlier note.)