Conference noted::equitation

    I guess the answer to some of your questions lies in what you consider
    to be a draft horse. It's certainly impractical to use an 18 hand 2,000
    pound Percheron as a saddle horse. However, there are lots of other
    smaller breeds that can make good saddle horses. For example, the Irish
    Draft horse is often used as a saddle horse and is crossed with other
    breeds(e.g. Thoroughbred) to produce hunters and cobs. There are also a
    lot of breeds that are/were dual purpose coach/riding horses. The
    Cleveland Bay is a good example. 
    
    Yes, crossbreeding of draft horses with light horses is common. Some US
    breeders are crossing Shires and TB's to make a new warmblood type.
    
    If you've never sat on a Percheron/Belgian sized draft horse, I'll give
    you a hint. I know from first hand experience that your groin will ache 
    from the stretch that their *huge* backs puts on the muscles on the 
    inside of your thigh! Do you really want that kind of pain on a regular 
    basis? Sure, your muscles will stretch out(eventually) and then it won't 
    hurt so much. But, what about the strain it would put on your hip joints?
    Bones & ligaments aren't designed to stretch.
    
    Sorry to be a spoil sport 
    
    John

    I've seen people make riding horses out of Belgiums occasionally, and
    certainly cold-blood crosses are very common, particularly in eventing
    it seems.  I rode a neighbor's Belgium bareback once, it was kinda
    fun, but basically the horse felt like a big clod who couldn't get out
    of his own way. :-)  I can't imagine them making very good trail
    horses, certainly they have the calm temperment, but will all that
    muscle mass to cool down in hot, humid summers they'd tire real quick,
    I don't imagine you'd get very far very fast. :-) If you like the
    look of a big, bulky horse, perhaps a Cleveland Bay, Freisan, or draft
    cross would be more suitable.  As far as eating more, I have always
    heard that as cold-bloods, they don't nessesarily require more feed
    than an average horse, but then I've never tried to feed one, either.
    :-)
    

    Thank you for your opinions.  I never thought the size would make it
    uncomfortable to ride.  I would like to know more about the
    alternatives you suggested.  How much would it cost to get a cross of
    some sort?  Where can I find one?  The only people around here (that I
    know of) that deal with draft horses are the Amish and they, of course,
    are not the ones to ask such questions.  Do the TB crosses have trouble
    with their feet as is characteristic of TBs?  Do you have names/numbers
    of anyone who breeds these crosses?  I know you're somewhere on the
    coast and I'm in the midwest, but what I'm looking for is just as much
    information as I can get!  
    
    Thanks!
    
    Paula
    
    PS  If anyone else has an opinion to contribute, please write!
    
    

    I have ridden several draft horse while learning to ride and have owned
    a Percheron/Thoroughbred cross for the last sixteen years. Depending on
    who you are and what you want to do, draft horses can be extremely
    comfortable riding horses. If you are a vertically challenged person
    then you may find them less suitable than a smaller horse. I have not
    experienced any of the discomforts mentioned in previous replies but
    then I am six foot five and 240 lbs and all the draft horse I rode had
    been trained to be riding horses as well as driving horses.
    
    Draft horses do eat more, a lot more if they are in work, so I wouldn't
    count on grazing being sufficient for them. Not all farriers will deal
    with draft horses but some specialize in them. They are no more or less
    difficult to shoe than any other horse, but, of course, take a much
    bigger shoe. Properly cared for draft horses are more robust than some
    other breeds. However, although they can jump, their conformation
    doesn't encourage a career as a jumper.
    
    Agility varies by the horse. I have found very few clumsy draft horses.
    One to me disturbing trend in show draft horses is the emphasis on
    sheer size and "action". A good working draft horse for farming needn't
    be much bigger than 16 hands, 17 for driving. 

    It is quite common to cross Quarter Horses with Percherons for 'circus'
    horses.  These animals have the wide back and heft for handling
    vaulting and the other tricks but also don't look quite so heavy as a
    straight draft.  
    
    In one of the replies I thought I detected a relationship being made
    between feed requirements and 'cold-blooded' - ness.  It's important to
    remember that draft animals are not Cold Blooded in the sense of
    reptiles - they are mammals, with a constant body temperature, just
    like the lighter horses.  My understanding is that they are the same 
    species as all of your
    riding horses.  Just like a chihuahua is the same species as an Irish
    Wolfhound.  Obviously the chichuaha would require LESS food than the
    Wolfhound.  Your Thoroughbred will likely require LESS food than the
    draft.  (All things  being equal - your horses may vary)
    
    -Dana

    In response to .4, does the Percheron blood give your horse a more
    docile disposition?  Per your comment about size, I am 5'6 110 lbs and
    fairly flexible.  Does it take a larger, stronger person to handle a
    horse of that size?  I assumed that if the horse was a "gentle giant"
    and not prone to crowhopping or any of the silly tricks associated with
    a nervous type, staying on would not be a problem.  Am I wrong?  What
    type of saddle do you put on yours?  Will a quarter horse sized western
    saddle fit?  What type of bit do you use?  Does it have to be specially
    made to fit a larger mouth?  Does your horse tire/overheat easily? How
    much would one cost?  Will it fit in a standard horse trailer?
    
    I plan to use this horse for nothing more than touring around the farm
    with friends.  I want one that can bear the weight of another person
    riding with me.  I'll keep my mare for barrel racing and general
    goofing around.  Since she likes to run away with strangers, I don't
    let people ride her alone, and she gets sore if I put another person on
    her with me.  Will a percheron be O.K. for this?
    
    

Hi

I own an Irish Draught x Thoroughbred mare - 16 hh.  Of course I am going to 
be totally biaised, but I believe this is the most reliable cross ever!  The 
Irish Draught is strong, sturdy and has a very reliable, easy going, kind 
nature, and crossed with thoroughbred adds a bit of quality and scope ideal 
for show jumping/hunting/riding club etc.  Crossing other draught horses like 
shire with the thoroughbred does happen here in the UK - but you don't often 
see the pure bred shires being ridden - I would agree that you'd have to do a 
fair bit of callentics/gymnastic exercise before you attempt to sit on 
something that wide!!!  This type of draught horse really is put together for 
strength and is more commonly seen pulling rather than being ridden.  But 
going back to my dear Irish Mare, she costs next to nothing to feed, is a 
very good doer ... in fact she spends most of the year on a diet!   Highly 
recommended!!!!!

Bye - Jo

don't forget that generalizations are just that.  Not all 
quarter horses are quiet.  Buying a particular breed does
not _guarantee_ a particular disposition or hardiness.

An example:  I own a quarter horse.  Quiet breed, right?
I've been dumped from this horse more times than I care
to admit because he spooked at something. Now this horse 
is not an appendix horse.  His only non-QH blood are 4
great-great-grandsires, and 3 of those 4 were Three Bars.
He acts more like a thoroughbred than the other QH's at 
my barn (and there are probably at least 15 of them)

Not all TBs have bad feet.  Not all Appys are stubborn as
mules, etc. You have to look at the individual animal you 
want to acquire.  Looking at the breed may help narrow the 
search for potential matches, but, there are many variations
within each breed.



k.

I've enjoyed the two draft crosses I've worked with.  Both are Percheron
crosses and both are somewhat on the 'heavy side' of their cross.  I
selected the horses for their owners for numerous reasons.  One of the
reasons was cost.  They tend to be less expensive than TB's or European
warmblood varieties.  Another reason was that the people truly wanted
something that would 'stand out' in a crowd... and believe me they do!
They have the 'noble' head of a trojan horse and their massive hindqarters
suggest they have the potential to make the earth move.  When they are
going correctly, they can be quite striking.  For those that appreciate
a powerful 'presence' without enormous cost, I think they are a good option.

Like any other horse, their conformation may not be suitable for every sport
and they have limitations. Every individual varies, but generally speaking, 
I think their heavier and flatter stride will undoubtedly take its toll on 
their skeletal system. For dressage, they may never achieve enough collection 
to be competitive against breeds whose gaits are naturally more elastic.  
For jumping, this skeletal pounding is far more extreme and depending on
the intensity, level, and frequency of the jumping, I might worry about 
safety and unsoundnesses developing down the road.

But, I like them!  They can be super pleasure horses while also being
very competitive at the lower levels in dressage and eventing.

Melinda

    Does the "heavier and flatter stride" make them a bumpy riding horse
    (i.e. will I get rattled to pieces on an hour long ride?)  At
    approximately what age would skeletal problems become evident and what
    types of problems would occur?  Would they be considered more capable
    of handling a heavier load on their back than an average quarter horse?
    Or could it be that the weight of their own body is already a strain?
    

>    Does the "heavier and flatter stride" make them a bumpy riding horse
>    (i.e. will I get rattled to pieces on an hour long ride?)  
    
Good question.  Not necessarily.  I wish I really understood all the
physics behind what makes one horse have an easier trot to sit over
another.  I'm inclined to believe flatter moving horses are less
pleasurable to ride, although in practice this isn't always the case.

One of the crosses has what I call a 'stone boat trot' which I attribute to 
its conformation and flat moving stride.  Her trot isn't hard to sit (as
far as following the motion), but it would wear on you over time, much like a 
car without shock absorbers.  The other cross has a nicer, more fluid trot 
and his trot is much more comfortable to sit.  I've just been speaking of
the sitting trot, but its also harder to post a 'stone boat trot' since 
their back doesn't give you much lift out of the saddle.

Melinda

    It sounds like you need a Fjord.  Before you say they are too small, 
    please come out to my farm (Douglas MA) and check them out!  My husband
    as well as many other folks larger than you or I look quite sharp on
    them!
    
    My mare is 13.2 hh, and she weighs in at about 1100lbs.  She gets
    a cup of sweet feed am and pm.  She eats a lot of hay and pasture,
    and we have a tough time keeping her on the slim side of 1100lbs.
    
    Fjords may be classified as a pony, but some are over 14hh, and close
    to 15hh.  Typically these are geldings, or non-breeding mares, as
    the height is out the the breed standard range.
    
    Fjords are wonderful family animals.  They require someone who knows
    horses, and need to be challenged all the time.  They can be quite
    stubborn if they think they can get away with it. 
    
    They don't require special shoeing, and could probably go barefoot
    if they didn't have a lot of rocky area to ride or work on.
    
    

    Re: some previous
    
    A horse's tractability has nothing to do with its size and everything
    to do with its training. I have seen very large draft horses easily
    handled by very small girls. On the other hand I have seen totally
    unmanageable ponies.
    
    Draft horses have descended from the Medieval War Horses - the Knight's
    Charger - so weight carrying is not a problem. At the height of the
    medieval arms race both the knight and the horse were completely
    encased in armour. The knights had to be winched on top of their horses
    in the worst cases. Then somebody changed all the rules by bringing
    gunpowder back from China.
    
    The only requirement for riding tack for draft horses is that it has to
    be bigger. A snaffle bridle is all that I have used, though it might
    have been a six inch snaffle and everything was let out to the last
    hole! A saddle with a wide tree and very long girth is the other
    requirement.
    
    Two large draft horses in a "Thoroughbred" sized trailer is a tight
    fit, an extra wide trailer would be preferable. One draft horse fits
    into a thoroughbred trailer if you move the partition over.
    
    While, in general, draft horses have quiet dispositions, it varies by
    the individual. I have seen draft horses bolt so never take any horse
    for granted. My horse occasionally reminds me that Daddy was a
    Thoroughbred. There are a many differing opinions as to the relative
    merits of the different draft breeds, the only consistent correlation
    is between the opinion giver and the breed that he/she owns.
    
    If a particular draft horse has only been used/trained for
    pulling, ploughing or driving it will tend to be very heavy on its
    forehand. Leaning in to the collar is the basic action of pulling.
    Depending on the owner/trainer it may also be very heavy in the mouth.
    I have driven a team that really didn't need to be attached to the cart
    by the traces, they would pull by the reins alone!
    
    There is absolutely no reason why a draft horse has to exhibit either
    of these conditions. A good driving horse needs only the gentlest of
    hints on the reins for control. Basic dressage training is just as
    applicable to draft horses as any other breed. But remember that a
    horse needs to be trained to ride as well as drive. So a draft horse
    that has only pulled won't have the slightest idea why you are sitting
    on top of him kicking him in the ribs!
    
    A disadvantage of draft horses as trail horses is that being taller 
    than your average trail horse you will have personal encounters with
    overhanging branches and other obstructions on an overgrown trail that
    your companions will scoot under. An advantage of draft horses as trail
    horses is that if you have to bushwhack through the brush you can lie
    down along his neck and he'll stomp right through the stuff whereas a
    smaller horse will balk. 
    
    If I didn't like Percherons I might think Fjords were pretty nice
    horses too! 

    I was surprised recently to see a number of draft crosses in a
    formal hunt here in Georgia.  Two - full brother and sister - were
    Belgian/thoroughbred crosses.  Very athletic - jumped cleanely and
    well the whole ride - lots of personality, and according to the
    elderly lady riding the gelding, the "softest" ride she has ever
    had.
    
    Years ago I rode a percheron/thoroughbred (17hh, 1350 lbs) in the
    Vermont 100 mile.  He had a big/wide trot - sort of like putting
    a mattress on top of a saddle on a long-strided saddlebred, but
    I was used to it, and had a great ride.  He did the full distance
    easily with no effect other than about 30 lb weight loss.
    
    I used to use our percheron mare "Peggy" for "pony rides".  She was
    17.5hh, and weighed 2300 lbs.  She responded to voice commands, and
    I would put 2 to 4 kids on her back and turn her into the ring.
    She ambled around as long as you asked her to, responding to 
    'gee', 'haw', 'up-trot', 'doo-waaalk', 'whuh-ho' - all this while
    I was sitting on my deck 20 yards from ringside.  I rode her myself
    many times - out to the back (of 500 acres) to fix fence, pick
    blackberries, locate other horses that had found a way through the
    fence (I could ride her on voice and lead a bunch in each hand!)
    
    They are great beasties, though as with all animals, can be spoiled.
    As a former stable owner, and with many experiences with all breeds,
    a good GENERAL statement is "the bigger the gentler..." but the fun
    is finding the exceptions!
    
    Diana

    Well after reading all the replies to this topic so far I would just
    like to add my bit.
    
    I own an Irish Draught x TB, he stands at 16.3hh and is dappled grey.
    Hes not big boned at all, I think the TB may have gone to his legs! He
    is a very handsome horse and I think the ID x TB make an excellent
    combination but them I am being bias!  The ID x TBs I know are very well
    mannered and are very gentle and almost go out of their way to please
    you.
    
    I event my horse as well as Show Jump and he has got a very big scopy
    jump which is quite handy when you are riding a cross country course
    when the fences don't move when they are hit!  I have full confidence
    in him and he gets me out of sticky situations!
    
    I would recommend the ID x TB but then it depends on the percentage of
    ID crossed with the TB, I must admit my horse is about half and half,
    but eveyone has their own opinions, but I think there great!
    
    
    Wendy

    In reference to the comment about Fjords, I would like to know how they
    differ from Haflingers.  I have a list of Haflinger breeders in my area
    but have not found any Fjord people.  I am going to start aggressively
    looking for a draft/draft-crossed riding horse but am afraid that I
    won't find any until late summer when we have the Ozark Empire Fair. 
    That is where people with nearly all breeds will be.
    
    Prior to this note, I had never heard of the Irish Draught.  Are they
    rare in the states?  Do they go by a different name, possibly?  Are
    they expensive?  As I mentioned before, price is important.  I don't
    plan on showing or competing in any event.  It's purely for me to play
    with as another pet.
    
    I've talked to farriers and dealers.  Can anyone give me ideas of where
    else I can go to find one?  Any clubs/organizations I can contact? 
    Since I don't want it for pulling, people just don't seem to be much
    help around here.

    I believe that this month's Horse Illustrated has a feature section on
    Irish Drafts and crosses.  Take a look if you get the chance.  They are
    beautiful.
    
    JW8}
    

    Hey, guess what!!!  I went and rode a Percheron last weekend!  It was
    not exactly what I had expected.  He was just a baby (2 years, ONLY 17
    hands) and had only been broke for two weeks!  His back was
    comfortable, unlike my quarterhorse.  I rode him bareback- what makes
    him more comfortable is that he didn't have that bone that makes
    bareback riding similar to straddling a rail.  I noticed that
    Percherons tend to take a smaller, choppier stride, but it is not one
    that would rattle you out of the saddle.  Then, I rode an older one who
    has been used for a year or so in jousting.  His trot was not much
    different from my quarterhorse.  His canter required that I roll with
    it more than I'm used to and was slightly more bumpy than other horses. 
    It did not, however, feel like I was riding a draft horse.  He was easy
    to grip with my legs- not so wide that I felt out of place.  The only
    down side to having a Percheron, I think, is that it costs quite a bit
    to keep their belly full.  All this for a riding horse seems wasteful
    when there are perfectly good, more proportionate horses out there. 
    It's the thought of towering over all the little people on trail rides
    that keeps me interested...
    
    What an impressive beast!

    I don't know too much about Haflingers, so I can't really comment 
    on how they differ from Fjords.
    
    Where are you located?  I can give you several names in your area.
    
    There is a club called the Northeast Fjord Horse Association.  THey
    cover the entire Northeast US (all the way down to MD from ME-and then
    some). 
    

    I'm in the southwest part of Missouri (Springfield).  It's kind of far
    from your neck of the woods.  There's a few Haflinger farms around here
    that I know of but nobody with Fjords.  I've heard that they have great
    dispositions and are perfect for everything, and then I've heard that
    they are nervous and like to bite.  I guess I'll have to judge that for
    myself, too.  
    

    
    
    Fjords nervous?  like to bite?  Not any of the one's I've worked with.
    Although to be honest, I have seen some Fjords that were miserably
    spoiled....but if you spoil any horse, you'll have bad habits to
    contend with.
    
    Fjords are real smart, and need new challanges.  I can't begin to list
    the stuff I've done w/ my mare.  Jumping a flaming and smoking cross
    rail comes to mind.
    
    Anyway  try the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry at:
    		Box 235 
    		Acworth, NH 03601
    		(603)835-6932
    
    My list is from 1992, so you may also want to try:
    
    		Mike May (he is the current registrar):
    		NFHA
    		1203 Appian Dr.
    		Webster, NY 14580
    		(716)872-5199
    
    		Ask Mike to send a Fjord Herald (quarterly magazine) and
    		tell him Michele Bigelow refered you.
    
    Some reputable breeders:
    
    	Vestlandgard
    	Lindsay and Jim Sweeny
    	Box 134
    	RR1
    	Tunbridge, VT 05077
    	(802)889-2462
    
    	(Lindsay is the N.E FHA president)
    	
    	Skoal Farm
    	Joe and Meg Hemple
    	PO Box #38
    	Gilmanton Iron Works, NH 03837
    	(603)364-7757
    
    
    	Fieldstone Farm
    	Pat Wolfe
    	RR #3
    	Ashton, Ontario KOA IBO Canada
    	(613)253-0631
    
    
    	There are many more breeders in the area, but these three
    	are very professional and have very good quality young stock
    	for sale, and also older horses.  These breeders have done
    	many long distance sales work, so they may be able to help you.
    
    	The registry may point you in the direction of some one local to
    	your area, but if you work with one of the three I listed above,
    	you won't be dissappointed.		

    I still haven't gotten a chance to go look at any Haflingers or Fjords
    yet, but am curious to know how the ride feels.  Are they a little
    rough like the Percheron or do they feel like a quarterhorse?  What is
    the average size of the Fjord?  From the pictures I have seen, they all
    are white.  Is this the most common color?  I don't really want a
    pony-sized horse.  14 hands is the minimum size I would be interested
    in.  Is this possible in this type of horse?  Are the larger ones more
    expensive?
    

    
    
    	Fjords range in size from 13 to 15hh.  14hh is average.
    	Fjords are also varying shades of dun, ie brown, red, grey, white.
    
    	Since they are wide and have pony size legs, the ride is
    	different...but quite nice.
    
    	Some of the Fjords recently imported from Holland are more of a
    	riding style...and are probably more what people are looking for in 
    	a riding horse.  Horses bred here are for riding driving and draft, 
    	with builds accordingly.
    
    
    	Price....Fjords can run from $2500 up to $25000.....it all depends
    	on what you want.
    
    	Call Mike May (two notes back)....He'll send you some great literature.
    
    	Michele 
    

    I own a team of Shire mares.  I mainly use them for hayrides and
    logging (check out http://www.ultranet.com/~bhf for pictures).
    I've been riding them bare back and decided that dressage could
    be fun.  I took my very nice dressage saddle in and had the tree
    widen.  The problem is a girth.  Dressage girths come up to 34",
    I need a 42" girth.  For now I'm using a 42" pony girth for an
    all-purpose saddle, but I'd like to have a nice dressage girth
    made.
    
    My saddle shop, Pelham Saddlery, is looking for someone to make
    me a girth but so far no luck.  No one wants to take the time.
    
    Does anyone out there know of someone who could make me a
    very nice dressage girth?
    
    BTW -- Yes, Shires make fine dressage horses.  Although they aren't
    very common in the States, in England they are popular and used
    for dressage.  Check out http://www.ultranet.com/~asha and click
    on "Pictures From the First World Shire Horse Congress."  This
    is the official WWW page of the American Shire Horse Association.
    
    Thanks for the help,
    Janet Schank
    DTN 381-0223
    [email protected]
    
    

    
    I'm not sure where you are, but you might want to try 
    
    "The Saddle Doctor"
    499 Firetown Road
    Simsbury, CT 06070
    203-651-7026
    
    I don't know if he makes girth, but you can ask.

    re: .25
    
    Bill Duffy, of North East Equestrian Products, in Littleton MA, has
    been known in the past to make custom tack. He makes a lot of girths
    for State Line. He is located in the old mill building directly across
    Route 119 from LKG near the traffic lights at the Routes 119/110
    intersection just off Interstate 495.