Conference noted::equitation

    His name is Johnny Lyons.
    
    I can see the ad as if it were in front of me.  It's in a lot
    of magazines on a regular basis.
    
    I know a trainer who worked with John a while ago.  Don't know
    when I'll run into him again (he trains horses for the Massachusetts
    State Police) but I'll ask him when I do.
    
    Cheryl
    

    Hi Simone - 
    
    	The ad is for John Lyons.  Search on his name - there may be
    a few notes on him.  You can buy his books and videos anywhere
    - and they're worth every penny.
    
    	I was able to attend one of his clinics in Scottsdale - very
    good.  I have my reservations about the quick-break methods but 
    everything else is just good solid horse sense.  His book "Lyons
    on Horses" is very good.
    
    	Good luck,
    
    		Janice Bennett

    Moderator hat on:
    
    I did a dir/title="lyons" and nothing showed up. With DIR
    *.*/title="lyons", I found only note 1381.65. A related note is
    1381.56 but the title doesn't mention Lyons. 
    
    So, I took the liberty of changing the title of the base note of this
    topic to "Hello?? Anyone know about John Lyons?" so that people can
    find the topic more easily. 
    
    Topic 1381 is mostly about bucking and methods of training & management
    to stop/prevent bucking. I have added the keywords BREAKING BEHAVIOR and 
    TRAINING to both this topic and 1381 so they'll show up in the index.
    
    john

    
        I just recently rented a few of his tapes. He actualy uses green
    horses in his tapes and is very impressive!!. One of them is called
    "Round Pen Reasoning" , in this tape he works inside a 60' round pen
    and in a short while he gets a head strung horse to follow him like 
    a puppy dog.  A must see if your interested in his work.
    
    Tom.

       Where can one rent/buy these tapes? I would be very interested
    in seeing his work.

    I have seen them on the carosels by the registers at feed stores.
    
    

    Around here(Western WA), most local tack shops and feed stores have a
    video rental section. The charge about $5 per tape and most of 'em let
    you keep it 2 days. Some expect you to return it the next day. Check
    'em out in your area.
    
    Most tack catalogs sell tapes and some equine book sellers carry tapes.
    Most of them carry Lyons' tapes. See notes 583 for catalogs and note
    1651 for book sellers.
    
    Probably the best place specializing in horse video rentals/sales right 
    now is "Horseman's Source". See note 889.10 for details

    
       I rented mine from Pinewood Saddlery in Plastow N.H.  right on
    RT125.  They charged me 1.00 per tape, per day.  They also had a 6 part
    symposium (sp?) That was done by John in Texas, I rented part one and
    will be going back for 2-6.  I looked in State Line, also in Plastow, 
    but didn't find one with John Lyons.
    
    T.

    
    
          Re: Last few,thank you!
    

    	I have the whole series...nice pressie from my hubby!
    
    	I saw some of the round pen reasoning tape at a clinic this
    	fall and decided I had to haver the whole series.  He does a great
    	job! 

    
    He will be appearing in Amherst, MA in May, in case you want to
    see him "in real life"....(8
    
    

I've seen the Round Pen Reasoning tape a couple of years ago  and
thought it was great.

My instructor has gone to a few clinics or week long sessions with
a guy named Buck Branagan (sp?), who she has described as one of the
3 or 4 people whose work is very much like John Lyon's work.  She 
also has a round pen, and uses the round pen reasoning techniques
(or maybe they're Branagan's variations-- I don't know but it sure
looks to me like the same thing that is on the tape).

In fact the roundpen is left "open" in the indoor hall all winter,
and we pull it closed when we want to use it.
I've recently started a little round pen work with my horse, starting
with having my instructor do an hour with him. He's a pretty easy guy,
and I was able to have him following me around without even having any
formal instruction  before that (and with using just the indoor, not the pen),
but it's amazing what you can learn by watching how your horse acts and
moves in the roundpen. It's great for learning about a horse's attitude, and
for getting a horse to focus on you.  

I don't know how well the techniques transfer to the saddle work, but
I'm sure there is some transference.  My horse hasn't done any "stick spooking"
under saddle since our sessions, but I dont think that proves anything yet.

Carlee does do roundpenning sessions or lessons, if you want to get a 
taste of it before (or after!) doing the John Lyon's stuff.
Her number is 508-433-9728 (leave a message on the "george burns" answering
machine).  Her barn is sort of on the borders of Groton/Dunstable/Pepperell.
--carrie  

    I also own the entire Lyons Video series and feel that they are some of
    the best.  I used his methods to train my last two horses and I swear
    by his techniques.  I think that one of the things that make him stand
    out as a good trainer is his ability to explain his techniques.  In
    many ways is methods are not unique but his explaination are so common
    sence and down to earth they are simplier to catch onto and therefore
    put into practice. 
    
    I have signed up for both the weekend and three day seminar in Amherst
    MA.  Hope to see some of you there.
    
    Karen Bibeau

    I went to the John Lyons clinic this weekend.  It was Really GREAT! It 
    can change the way you think about your horses and your relationship
    and communication with them.  I would highly recommend it to anyone, in
    any style of riding.  
    
    Sharon

    
    	Sharon... If you have time I'd love to hear more about how the
    	clinic went.. what the agenda was..  what sort of problems and
    	philosophies he addressed.  
    
    	I've read a lot about John Lyons - he seems to do a lot of
    	clinics out here (New Mexico/Texas/etc).. and I've read some
    	articles hes written.  
    
    	Sounds like it was worth the time and money...
    
    	tell us more!
    
    

    I also had the opportunity to attend all six days of John's recent 
    Massachusets Symposium.  I could not agree more with the last reply.  
    His methods, in my opinion, far exceed those of any other single
    trainer I am familiar with.  His techniques are common sence and
    gentle.  His training method is based on teaching the rider how to
    properly teach the horse.  And Sharon is right in that it can give an
    individual a new outlook on their horse and why they do what they do
    and what some of the reasons are why they behave the way they do. 
    
    It was a GREAT week.
    
    Karen 

    
    
    My local (Albuquerque) feed/tack store has a hard cover book that 
    was written about (or by) John Lyons.  Anyone read it, recommend?
    
    I'm sure he's best in real life, but ..
    
    h

    
    "LYONS ON HORSES"  - it's an excellent book!

    It's hard to explain what I saw at the clinic, I'm sure different
    people see different things. Since I was looking for communication
    ideas I think that's what I saw the most. He communicates so well with
    his horses, to an observer it looks as though they are reading his
    mind. There is no obvious reason for them to respond the way they do as
    he uses them for examples of what your untrained horse might do, how to
    react and then how your horse will respond. The horses play the 'bad'
    horse and the 'good' horse, and it's not obvious to the audience how he
    is telling them what to do.  But then he does tell you how they know
    the difference, and it's so simple!
    
    The things I learned could easily be said to be just plain common
    sense, but I guess we need a common sense refresher once in a while:
    
    I can be very subtle with my commands, I don't need to 'scream' my
    signals. The horse will then 'tune in' to listen more closely.
    
    If I find myself correcting my horse all the time, I'm not keeping her
    busy enough. Each time I punish it will only create more things I will 
    need to correct. Lyons -"If the horse is doing something I don't want 
    him to do, I'm going to replace it with something I do want him to do."
    
    Repeat,repeat,repeat. Many people think their horse understands
    something, then when he doesn't do it, they punish him. Understand that
    he doesn't really know it until he's done it consistently correct 600-800 
    times.
    
    Wait for a response, don't force it, make it his choice, and he'll
    learn it faster. Be patient.
    
    Make a good explicit goal.  Break it into small steps. Get each step 
    consistently before going to the next. If you have problems you went
    too fast, go back to the earlier steps.
       
    If your horse is dragging you around in hand by the halter (no, not
    my horse :-] ) it's going to drag you around by the bit as well.
    Teach it to be soft and responsive when ever you handle it, starting 
    on the ground.
    
    Well of course there was much more, on spooking, trailering, etc.
    It was very good.  I was a little disappointed when I read his book. I
    think it needs more polish. I found the diagrams confusing, and the
    subject matter as well. It tends to jump around. He's much easier to
    understand in person. 
    
    Sharon

    
    thanks Sharon...  I suspected that sort of approach... people have
    used the word soft when they talk about John Lyons.  
    
    and it is great to be reminded of the commonsense things.  I find
    if I'm not sharp (ie; bad day at work) then I lose touch with
    the common sense things way too fast..... 
    
    I'll thumb through the book at lunch to day and see what it looks
    like.
    
    h
    

    Just curious -
    
    Has anyone in here actually followed Lyon's roundpen methods on their
    own horses?  I hear a lot about it, have read the book, seen the
    videos - but have not run into anyone yet who has actually taken
    their own horse through his program by themselves.  
    
    I did the very first lessons on my own new horse this weekend - up 
    to the point of getting her to turn and face me on command - took
    about an hour, and I felt it was very successful!  Consider that
    this horse spent the first 5 years of life in a feral herd and abused
    badly by a 'cowboy' who used to chase the herd and rope them, 
    has had limited handling since and is quite mistrustful of people -
    I was impressed with how easily his steps seemed to get through to
    her.  I can now even walk up to her and touch her in the paddock 
    (this is not a problem in the stall, but she's always been
    unapproachable when loose).  Saturday morning it took two hours
    to get a halter on her - in the stall! (I know, I shouldn't have
    taken it off in the first place :-) , but after Sunday's roundpen
    work, it took all of five minutes. 
    
    I'm a bit surprised at my own success (or percieved success, anyway),
    and am wondering if it has gone so easily for anyone else working
    on their own?
    
    Stories?
     

    I'm using his loading method now, after total failure with the usual
    methods (broken halters, lead ropes, lunge lines,... loose horse 
    playfully galavanting about the yard, me in tears of frustration).  
    
    Since I have to work alone, there was really no other choice
    for me.  You just can't "make" a stubborn horse load by standing at
    it's head, unless you have an assistant or two behind.  So far, she 
    now loads in by herself on cue, I have only put the butt bar up a few
    times, I have yet to take her anywhere because I have trouble with the 
    last.  A few more lessons and I'll feel secure enough to take a trip.
    
    Sharon

    I've had great success with Lyon's methods (the ones I've used anyway).
    I've done the round pen training and credit it with taking my previous
    Arab's attention span from that of a knat to that of a large horse fly
    and that was a MAJOR accomplishment.  My current beasts have all had 
    some "round pen" training and all come to me on command (or at least
    turn and face me and "plant it").  And I don't even have a "true" round
    pen to do it in.  When I approach my horses I don't see rear-ends even
    if that is the direction I approach from.  My farrier can even catch
    them for shoeing using the same commands when I'm not around.
    
    I've used his trail training techniques for teaching water crossing (or
    bridge crossing or anything else scary that must be passed) with equal
    success and marvelous results.
    
    And I think his trailer loading training techniques are unbeatable.
    I've personally worked one horse through it (not my own, waiting 
    until spring for that), had a friend use it on 2 of her horses and
    another use it on her horse and all have had 100% success.
    
    I've found the key to success with his methods is PATIENCE and
    REPETITION.  If you have the self control his methods actually tend to
    work in much less time that other methods I've tried in the past and
    with much more predictable results.
    
    I'm a believer, I've never attended a clinic or seen a video, just
    read his book.

    Hello all,
    
    having read all these replies with interest, I`d now like to ask you for
    some more details (training methods, basic principles etc.).
    
    I own 2 Thoroughbred horses (gelding and stallion) near
    Frankfurt/Germany. We are primary working outside, sometimes just
    riding around, but I`m often working on the ground. Especially the
    stallion (nearly 6 years old) needs a lot of education and training. 
    
    I`ve never heard about John Lyons. The only person from US who is very 
    popular here is Linda Tellington-Jones who is quite good in my opinion.
    
    Is her working method comparable with Lyon`s method? Could you please
    write me the name of his book? Did you ever hear about Lyon visiting
    other countries?
    
    Re.-1: Could you please write some more about your crossing water
    exercises etc. - I`m trying to train it with the stallion but he is
    still unreliable. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. And if it
    doesn`t work there is mostly no possibility to get him go through the
    water. 
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Iris

    Iris,
    
    I can't tell you much about Tellington-Jones methods, as I haven't
    really studied them.  They center around massage and touch to teach
    the horse to relax.  I'm sure someone else in here knows far more about
    her system and can tell you more.
    
    I am becoming very familiar with Lyons, though, very quickly.  The
    basis for his work is to have the horse think that what you are asking
    him to do is the easiest thing for him to do, thus he *wants* respond
    to your request properly.  It begins in a roundpen, or other smallish,
    enclosed area, and centers around the philosophy that horses are
    basically lazy and will attempt to take the easiest way out of any
    situation - which you teach them is to listen to you.  His book is
    "lyons on horses" - and it's very good, easy to read.  He also has
    a series of videos that are even better.  I can attest personally
    to the fact that this method works, quickly, painlessly, and very
    effectively!  The mare I mentioned in my last reply can now be
    caught for the first time in her life after a total of about 2 hours
    of roundpen work.  She will give me her full attention on command,
    will follow me around without a lead, will move away, stop and approach
    me, and turn and face me.  Considering her past life, this is very,
    very good.  
    
    I have no idea if Mr Lyons does clinics outside the US or not.  He is
    doing a symposium (as he calls them) in Kingston NH in April, though -
    although unfortuneatly he will not be working with a green horse, just
    demonstrating with his own, already trained Appaloosa stallion.  My
    friend and I have signed up to go though, as I'm sure it will still
    be an informative 2 days!
      

    
        RE:LAST
    
             John Lyons will be working a 2 year old at the symposium
       in Kingston on April 8 and 9 .  My wife called a week ago to see
       if he came up with a volenteer but unfortunatly he was set on 
       using a 2 year old.  State Line Tack in plaistow N.H. is taking
       the forms for tickets.  $40. a day $50 for both days, hours are
       8:am to 5:pm... at The Black Magic Farm  E. Kingston..
    
       Tom.

    Thanks for the update!  When my friend called a few weeks back,
    she was told he'd only be demonstrating on his own Appy stud
    (Zip, I believe the horses name is) and we were a bit disappointed!
    Glad to see we'll get to see him work with a 'real' greenie instead!
    
    Were you able to get tickets? Megan was told they were selling out
    fast.  We both got our confirmations in the mail about 2 weeks ago,
    though.  Hope to see some other Deccies there!
    

    Hello all,
    
    thanks for all informations on Lyons.
    
    I`ve been looking around for books or videos but it seems I can`t buy
    them in Germany. I've asked for him even on the Equitana but no one
    knows Lyons. As I wrote before all you can get is things like Linda
    Tellington-Jones and Pat Parelli.
    
    I`ll keep on searching.
    
    Iris

    
    RE:27
    
         He had intended on bringing "ZIP" with him but ZIP came up lame.
      I do have my tickets and will be there both days. I've seen four of
      his tapes and read many many articles, even own a few of his books,
      and by the way he will be at State Line Tack Friday prior to
      autograph his books. 
    
     Tom.