Conference noted::equitation

    
    
    	I had the opportunity to watch the video's of the activity which
    	took place (kuring/koering I'm not sure of the spelling) this
    	summer when the President of the Fresian Horse Association and
    	his appointed judge came to the U.S.  To the best of my knowledge
    	they made two appearences - one in Colorado - and one in New
    	England.  At Christmas I visited Carolyn and Johnny Sharpe who
    	raise Fresians - they currently own 25+ and stand an impressive
    	stallion.  They provided me with a very interesting and in depth
    	overview of the process - what it means to the individual animals
    	and how it effects their breeding process.  I will search my files
    	when I go home this weekend and see if I can find it and translate
    	a little for the folks here if you'd like.
    
    	Basically - the horses are evaluated at 3 months - 3 years and
    	then when they have (as stallions) produced a number of offspring
    	who can be judged to determine the stallions influence.  If the
    	stallion passes that initial test they are then required to
    	perform in hand, under saddle or in harness.  The stallion in
    	Colorado is TOTALLY beautiful and athletic - and a gentleman....
    	He was easily performing 3rd/4th level movements. He is a BIG
    	horse with dense bone and deep body, but his movement is as light
    	on his feet as you can imagine.
    
    	His name is FRANZ and he has been judged with the highest
    	award (ster = STAR)
    
    	Mares are judged on their own merit and then (like the stallions)
    	to determine their influence - they look at offspring.  
    
    	It was facinating to watch the judges with the babies - they are so
    	involved they KNOW each horse personally (hey, they look at some of
    	them almost every year - and a large percentage were born in their
    	country and imported to the US).
    
    	All horses who are given a designation are branded on their neck at
    	the time of the kuring - and their papers are perminently marked
    	as well.  It is a strict process to say the least.
    
    	At the East coast kuring - the judge also took the reins and drove
    	one of the mares in harness.  It seems a very hands on, educational
    	and positive experience.  Even when they would say "this is a BAD
    	croup...." they would show the handler and the audience why.
    
    	I really enjoyed watching - looking at the difference - Fresians
    	are becoming more popular.  Johnny and Carolyn have a stallion that
    	they just use to show - he's a representative for the breed - not
    	perfect breeding quality (so he has no offspring) - but an athlete
    	and beauty to look at.   With their black color (they are allowed
    	to have a small star on their heads), extreme long manes and tails
    	and their feathers they still show all the evidence of why they were 
    	the choices of 
    	knights (in shining armour of course!).
    
    	I'll see if I can find the details this weekend - smiles -  holly

	My experiences with the Dutch Keuring (that's how they spelt it)
	system for Fjords have been in hand, under saddle, draft and driving.  
    	It is very confusing, but I'll try my best to explain it, and then give 
	an example.  I should also note that the Norwegian Keuring system is 
    	very different than the Dutch, and it much harder to get top premiums

	The first part of the Keuring is the `Keuring class'.  Horses are 
	judged against a breed standard and awarded a premium.  It is broken
	down by gender and age.  Horses under 3 are awarded an A, B, or C
	rating.  It doesn't really mean much as they expect the horse to 
	change throughout it first few years.  

	Horses over 3 are given a 1st, 2nd or 3rd premium.  Not all horses
	may get a premium. As Holly noted, the horses are blood typed, branded 
     	with their premium on one rear flank and an identification number on the
    	other.  Micro-chipping is available as well, but they prefer the visual
    	identification of the branding.

	The purpose of the Keuring is for educating horse owners about their
    	breeding stock and how they can breed to improve the breed.  For the 
    	most part it's made up of mares and stallions.  A geldings role would 
    	come in later, although many folks have brought their geldings thru the 
	system to see if the parents were considered a good breeding pair.
    	Only the horse is judged, the handler and rider have very little
    	impace on the overall score.

	The Keuring judge fills out sheets where the areas of the horse's
	body is broken down into sections, ie. head, topline, shoulder area,
	ect.  It is rated good, adequate, not good.

	They stress that although you may get a 3rd or no premium, you may
	still have a horse that is good for you, but breeding it may not
	be desired, or if you do, find a mate that would offset the horses
	undesirable conformation traits.  Even horses w/ 1st premiums may have 
    	an undesirable trait and the Keuring is a good place to learn about it 
    	and find an appropriate mate.

	If you get an 1st, or 2nd (and maybe a 3rd) you have 2 yrs to complete
	the performance tests.  They are called IPOB tests and are in riding
	driving and draft.   You are given an AA, A, B, C, or no rating.
    	B, and C are the usual ratings, A is very hard to achieve never 
    	mind a AA.

	The IPOB test is again broken down into sections, and a scoring
	system similar to the dressage system is used.  You need a certain 	
	minimum number of points to get into each rating class, and you can't
	get an individual score less than xx* either otherwise you go down 
    	one level.

	If you get two A performance tests, your horse earns the performance 
	title `prestatie'.

	They must get at least an A in the IPOB to be included in the `Model' 
    	class.  Again, this is an in-hand class and all the horses are judged 
    	against the standard and each other and are rated accordingly.  If they 
    	get a 1st premium and are in the top 1/3 of all the horses in the 
    	class, then they get a Star rating. Other wise they become a 
    	Star Aspirante.  STAR is the highest rating an individual horse may 
    	earn based on themselves.

	After that all the offspring are judged for the horse to acquire
	any higher ratings.  This is where a gelding may again be judged.

	
	The example:  Sigrid, my mare.

	Keuring class:  1st premium.  Note to find a Stud w/ a strong hock.
	
	Riding IPOB:  B 
	Draft IPOB:  AA 

		In both IPOBs Sigrid got 10's for saddling/harnessing
		willingness to accept the rider/load.  Very uncommon to 
    		get one 10, but we got two!!! (brag, brag.  :^)

	*	In the draft IPOB she got all 9 w/ the exception of one 
		8, for smoothness of movement (novice handler), and in 
    		order to get a AA, she could only have one score of 8.  
		
    Model Mare: 1st Premium, Star Aspirante 

        
	

    
    	DUTCH TERMS used for Fresian Horses - Extracted from information
    	supplied by Johnny and Carolyn Sharpe of Fort Collins, Colorado
    	without permission.
    
    	VEULENBOEK: Foal book. This is the book where the registry of the
    Fresians begin.  The weanlings will be entered into the foal book after
    the judges inspect them. (abreviated vb.)
    
    	STAMBOEK: Stud book.  This is the body of the registry. It is where
    the adult horses are registered.  At the age of 3 the horses are
    inspected and moved into these books.  There is a book for mares, a
    book for geldings and a book for qualified breeding stallions.  Mare
    horses that are not qualified to breed but are still intact remain in
    the foal book.
    
    	PREMIES: These are premimums or awards given by the judges.  They
    are first, second and third premies.  Each award has a given number of
    points assigned to it. The points are tallied by the FPS for the
    parents of the horse that the premie is awarded to.  These points go
    toward acheiving the status of "preferent".
    
    	STUDBOOK MARES & GELDINGS:  fresians that have been registered and
    are three years old and older.  They must be at least 1.50 meters
    (14.3 hands) at the withers.  They must be black and no white markings
    except for a star or a few white haris on the muzzle.  They must demon-
    strate to the judges that their movement and conformation is of
    sufficient qualit for inclusion into the Studbook.  Studbook horses are
    branded with an "F" for Fresian, on the left side of the neck.
    
    	STER MARE OR GELDING: The horse must be previously or
    simultaneously be designated as a Studbook Mare of Gelding.  They must
    be at least 1.55 meters (15.1 hands) at the withers and demonstrate to
    the judges that their movement and conformation are sufficient for ster
    status.  Ster mares and geldings are branded with "S" on the left side
    of the neck to the right of the studbook brand.
    
    	MODEL MARES:  To be judged for model a mare must first be ster. She
    must be 4 years old or older.  She must be 1.58 meters (15.2 1/4 hands)
    at the withers.  She must demonstrate to the judges sufficient movement
    and conformations to be approved for Provisional Model. Within the next
    calendar year the mare must pass an IBOP performance test with at least
    a B designations of 77 points or more.  Performance ability can be
    proven undersaddle or in harness.  The mare is then branded with an "M"
    on the left side of her neck.
    
    	PREFERENT:  This is a designations of quality offspring. A mare
    must be of at least a ster quality and produce at least four offspring
    that are:
    
    	a. ster or model mares or geldings
    	b. approved stallion
    	c. stallion that reaches 2nd level of selection for breeding
           approval
    This award can be awarded to living mares or posthumously. The brand
    for this award is a crown given of the left side of the neck.
    
    	QUALIFIED STALLIONS:  Stallions given the priveledge of breeding.
    Less than 1% of the male population achieves this status. The stallion
    must be at least 1.58 meters (15.2 1/4 hands) and at least three years
    of age. His mother, grandmother and great grandmother must be at least
    ster. The stallions undergo two days of conformational and performance
    testing. Then if they are chosen, they go on to 50 days at the stallion
    schole.  Here they are judged on the quality of their walk, trot,
    canter, performance under saddle, performance in harness, stable
    manners  and training manners.  If accepted as provisional breeding
    stallions they are branded with an "F" on the left side of their necks.
    The stallions then are permitted to breed until theri oldest offspring
    are three years old.  Then the offspring are judged and must show that
    the stallion has a positive impact on the breed. If the offspring are
    deemed unsatisfactory then the stallions breeding priveledges will be
    revoked.  If, on the other hand, the foals meet the standards set by
    the FPS then the stallion retains his breeding rights.  In order to
    keep his approved breeding privleges his offspring must continue to be
    evaluated every year.

    That looks like some of the info that I've seen for the Dutch
    inspection of the Fjords.  The Fresian registry seems stricter,
    but the overall impression is the same.
    
    thanks.

This system is also used for the Dutch Warmbloed breed, with some
variations. Each year of about 4,500 colts, about 800 3-year-olds
go forward for grading and after 2 appraisals, around 60 are passed
to be tried out in the 100-days performance test.

Then, out of these, about 30-40%  are licenced to start breeding, 
and after their first crop of foals are inspected, if they are not
seen to be improving the general level of stock, they can have
their licences removed.

There is then further "foal" testing 2 years later, and they themselves
also have to prove themselves in competitions on a regular basis PLUS
annual reviews by the Breeders Board to make sure that the stallions
are having a positive effect on the breed!!

It is a very thorough system!

Ellen (100% Dutch)

Knowledgeable horsefolk have been breeding horses for centuries and 
improving their stock without "Big Brother" telling them which stallions
were meritorious. I like the idea of testing as an educational experience 
for the humans. But, at the risk of taking us down a rathole, I have to ask: 
"Isn't this really about money?"

Yes, many people are interested in breeding better horses. Yes, testing
is useful especially as an educational tool for those involved with breeding.
But, I think it's really about money. 

For example, the Morgan International Sport Horse Record(MISHR) is a breed 
service organization which promotes Koerung. (I've used the singular 
because I can't bring myself to use "Koerungs" as I believe the German 
plural would be Koerungen...is that weird or what?)

Anyway, one of MISHR's stated goals is to increase the sales price of
Morgans as sport horses by encouraging those breeding Morgans to get their
horses(mares too) approved via a Koerung. These folks feel that they cannot 
get fair prices for Morgan sport horses because they aren't "recognized"
as sport horses. By setting up Koerung situations using European judges
& rules, they feel they can get the recognition and then the prices.

Think about it. The Germans started this process after WWII to salvage their
breeds and make them more valuable commodities. The German breeds became
successful in the show ring and then their prices sky-rocketed. The other 
breeds/countries jump into action to compete with the Germans and recapture 
a share of the market.

Why would a knowledgeable horseperson submit a horse that they wanted to 
use for breeding to the certification process? Again, I have to think the 
answer is money. First of all, a certified stallion would get higher
stud fees and higher priced foals. Secondly, if the breed does not allow
registration of foals by uncertified stallions, the foals, regardless of
their inherent quality, would be less valuable.

John(Who_has_already_got_on_his_flame_retardant_clothing)

I am really surprised no one took John's bait about the Koerung
and money.

No, John I don't believe the Koerung is about money. It is a system
of improving bloodstock that has its roots (I believe and I am sure
you will correct me if I am wrong. :-) :-)) in the 1800's. The money
part is a recent phenomenon.

My practical experience has been the Koerung and the German Shepherd Dog. 
I believe the Koerung gives you a few things:

(1) An horse or dog that is Koerung has met some minimum standards to
be considered a breeding animal. These standards involve a working aspect
(usually) and an evaluation against a standard. It is a means to try to
objectively view the animal. By having a working and conformation aspect,
you try retain a balance between "beauty" (conformation) and "working"
(attitude, drives, trainability).

As a buyer or breeder, I have some objective, standard means to measure a
horse and/or its ancestors who I may never be able to see. This better
probability is worth more money in my opinion - if you want or need this
assurance in your horses. 

(2) As a breeder, I can use the Koerung system check point so that I
don't get "stable" blind (versus "kennel blind" with dogs). I may believe
the horses I breed are really good, but the Koerung system gives me an
objective means to verify that. Shows (in horses and dogs) are subject to
fads, opinions and politics. The Koerung will tend to be less affected by
that. A good horse (or dog) will still be able to meet the minimum requirements.

(3) As a person who is interested in the preservation and/or improvement of 
the breed, I can place some trust in a more objective system like the 
Koerung to keep the less qualified animals out of the gene pool. In how
many breeds of horses and dogs have you seen one animal (which is not 
typical or acceptable for that breed) become widely used due to marketing
or show wins? 

(4) The Koerung system allows a huge amount of data to be kept on the breed.
Those vested with responsibility (Koermeisters) have access to alot of
information to help them with their decisions. Koerungs also benefit the
breeder/rider/spectators because the written critiques are public and 
usually their is a verbal critique at the Koerung. You may not agree
with everything the Koermeister says, but you do learn a tremendous
amount about conformation and ability and what the "ideal" is.

Vicky

A good "argument", Vicky. But, I offer the following as a "disproof by 
counter-exaqmple"...Does this exchange sound like the folks involved are 
interested in improving the breed? Does it sound like the ratings given 
are "objective"?

Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: [email protected] (Jennifer Sullivan)
Subject: Inspect or Don't Instpect? WBs

Help, I'm up aginst decision-making timne... I can either have Woody
inpsected by by the Dutch WB people, or not... It would cost me
around $200 to do it, but IF she passed (35% of TB mares presented do)
her foal would go right into the Main Studbook instead of the Auxiliary.
But I don't know if she's in that top 35%!  I've never been to a kuring
so I don't know what the horses who pass look like.... I think
and have been told by several people that Woody has VERY good build,
but I don't know enough about the standards to judge for myself,

From: [email protected] (Dianne Cooke)
Subject: re: Inspect or Don't Inspect? WBs
Date: 8 Feb 1994 18:20:20 GMT

Another option is to get Woody approved by the ISR/Oldenberg
folks. It is a little less expensive and if she recieves a premium award,
she will be automatically accepted by the NAWPN. Also, the NAWPN will 
accept TBs that are
approved through the Holsteiner folks with at least 43 points (bonits??).
Even if she doesn't receive premium status but is accepted into the main mare
book, many, many stallions are approved with ISR/Old and the foal would still
be registerable with ISR,(and if a filly, could be accepted with NAWPN).
In the last newsletter from the NAWPN, the president STRONGLY implied that
they were going to get even tougher about accepting TBs. They don't want
them to look like racehorses AT ALL.  They want an uphill topline, a well set
on neck and a strong hindquarter. In my experience, the ISR has been a 
little more lenient toward TBs. Either way, if you decide to get Woody 
approved, you need to watch videos of keurings or better yet, talk with
someone who is successful at showing SPORTHORSES in hand.  It is a 
real art that is not easily learned. It is also very physical for
the handler. A good handler CAN be the difference between premium
or not.
Good luck, and keep us informed...
Diane in N.Ca

John,

I think this exchange shows how confused those in the US are about 
the Koerung system.

I don't believe it is the fault of the system but rather
the lack of experience and immaturity of our setup in the
US.

And yes it still sounds like there is some sort of standard.
Because you are dealing with different breeds, you will get
different standards. And as the breed evolves (or devolves
depending on your perspective), those charged with the well
being of the breed, will have to change how strict they are.

In this example, ISR/Oldenburg folks wanted to get some Thoroughbred
blood into the breed. Now they have enough and will start to
back off so that they will only allow really superior Thoroughbreds
into the gene pool. (That's how it sounds to me based on this
conversation.)

Being able to register a horse in more than one registry makes it
confusing and brings on these games. With German Shepherds, you
can't try to register the dog in the Rottweiler registry. :-)

Once the system stabilizes in the US, you'll see less of these
games. But again, in spite of this, I get a sense that there still
are standards, even if the standards are uneven at this point.

Vicky

    The high cost of the Kuering, at least the few  I've participated
    in were related to the costs of flying and putting up the inspectors.
    Branding, blood typing, microchipping, registry paper work and so on
    all have their fees as well.  It adds up quick.
    
    To me the Kuering is a checks and balance system for my breeding
    choices.  I can be sure that my choices are good, and that I'm working 
    on bettering the breed.  If I make a mistake, they'll let me know.  ;^)  
    
    I'm breeding for top quality, so regardless of the Kuering process
    I will ask a top price for my foals.  All the Kuering did was educate
    me as to where my mare stood against the breed standard.
    
    It may be different for other breeds.....
    
    BTW-  The NFHA is not 100% satisfied with the Kuering, so we're 
    developing an `Americain Inspection' process of our own.  More on that
    later....
    

    Vicky,
    
    I think we may have interpretted that conversation a little
    differently. First of all, it sounded like the one with the mare was
    only interested in getting the mare approved so she could get foals
    into the Dutch WB registry. Now, why would she care about that? She
    apparently doesn't know beans about Dutch WBs and isn't interested in
    the breed per se. Only reason I can see is that she thinks she'll get a
    higher price for a Dutch WB foal than for a non-racing TB. 
    
    Secondly, the response said something like "Get a professional to show
    your horse at the Koerung. It can make the difference between getting
    premium or not." To me, that sounds exactly like the situation in the
    various breed conformation/halter classes. People in the "show" world
    use the same logic, "Have a pro show your horse. You'll get better
    ribbons." If it matters who is on the end of the lead, it *ain't*
    objective!
    
    Now, as to the cross registering...that's the nature of many warmblood
    registries. Not only here but in Europe. Registry A will accept foals 
    sired by stallions of Registry B out of a Registry A mare or the reverse 
    cross. Some even permit registration of foals with neither parent in 
    the registry!
    
    In other words, the registries aren't closed. They permit cross
    breeding but the rules vary from register to register. To me, this is
    not a breed but a type. 
    
    John

    I think there's a difference between Fjords and the warmbloods.
    Nobody's in Fjords because they can make money at breeding them. Nor
    can they expect to win wads of prize money in competition. It's pure
    love that motivates people like Michelle.
    
    Now, warmbloods is where the dollar signs come in... Folks are
    getting $15,000 - $25,000 for warmblood yearlings. Older horses(even
    untrained ones) sell for very hefty price tags and some of the 
    competition horses have been sold in recent years for price tags in 
    the $1,000,000 range even though there are only 2 showjumpers who have 
    won that amount of prize money(i.e. Milton and Big Ben)...I don't think 
    there's a snowball's chance in Hades of a dressage horse or event horse 
    winning that much money but there have been some that were sold for 
    prices like $1,000,000...
    
    The point is that breeders who can claim that their horses are "bred
    for" the Olympic disciplines can charge more for their stock. Since the
    Germans were doing Kuerungs and that was seen as "the stamp of
    approval", the other breeds jumped on the band wagon and started
    Kuerungs. Sounds like a money motive to me.
    
    John

    >The high cost of the Kuering, at least the few  I've participated
    >in were related to the costs of flying and putting up the inspectors.
    >Branding, blood typing, microchipping, registry paper work and so on
    >all have their fees as well.  It adds up quick.
    
    Now, that brings up a good point. Systems that are practical in European
    countries don't necessarily work well here. Many of our states have
    geographic areas larger than many European countries(e.g. Holland).
    Such large areas make it extremely difficult to organize a Kuering(of
    any spelling or form ;-) for a particular breed. 
    
    Sure, the answer is bring the inspectors to you but how many Breed X
    breeders are there in the state? OK, so in New England, the states are
    small and you can readily transport a horse to a neighboring state
    which makes the organization a bit easier. But, what about a state like
    Colorado where there's lots of wide open spaces between you and the
    next breeder?

    But John...if only a select few TBs are approved for a specific
    breed studbook, and they (the keurmiesters) tell you they are looking 
    for a specific type.....that to me says that they want to improve
    the breed by adding select, top quality stock.  Top quality brings
    top money.  And again it's the demand that dictates the  selling
    price.  If the top worldwide riders  decided that type Y vs type X
    was the breed of choice for their sport, you can bet the prices
    for stock would swing toward that new trend.
    
    TB are a good breed to mix w/ others.  But I know that the Paint Horse
    registry is starting to discourage crossing TB w/ Paints because the 
    young stock is starting to look more like a tall lanky TB and not the 
    stocky Paint/QH build - it is changing the breed standard too much.
    
    re: professionals showing
    
    The Dutch inspector who came over stressed that it's not the 
    handler, but that horse that earns the premium.  Turnout is
    key, but the handler is supposed to wear all white, as not to
    distract the judging of horses.  There were some top trainers
    (One is a Fjord/Morgan/driving person) whos animals did well, but 
    our mare and another mare earned the only AA of the event (we are
    non-pros).  So there is hope for the non pro.  :^)

From .8

>Either way, if you decide to get Woody 
>approved, you need to watch videos of keurings or better yet, talk with
>someone who is successful at showing SPORTHORSES in hand.  It is a 
>real art that is not easily learned. It is also very physical for
>the handler. A good handler CAN be the difference between premium
>or not.

They didn't say a professional. Just an good handler. Having shown 
under German rules for a German judge in dogs, I am now humbly aware that
just showing up with a horse on lead (or a dog on a leash) is not enough
to get you a good rating. You have to know how to set a horse up to its
advantage. A good judge is going to see a poor croup, but an unprepared handler
can make it look worse than it actually is. Knowing the procedure makes it
easier on the horse to smoothly go through its paces. A judge has to err
on the side of caution. If he or she can't easily determine if the crabbing
trot is a handler interference or a problem with movement, they should be
safe and decide it is the horse. 

In borderline cases, a judge needs something from the horse to move it
up or keep in down. So what are they looking for - perhaps a strong,
effortless trot at the end of a long class, perhaps ready compliance
with the handler or judge in spite of several examinations. A good
handler will know how and when to keep a horse going. 

A good handler can't get a mediocre horse to premium level. There just
won't be enough there to work with.

I do agree with John that geographic distance is a problem in the US.
I don't know how to address it other than to try to promote as many
shows and koerungs as possible in all parts of the US. To counteract
the distance, the US will need to build up a good legion of judges and
Koermeisters in every part of the country.

Vicky

    Actually, I've been playing something of a "devil's advocate" here. As
    I said before, I'm strongly in favor of Koerung as informative/educational
    experiences. Those whose horses achieve high ratings should be
    justifiably proud of their horses. 
    
    The things that bother me about the system are:
    	1. The impracticality of it in the U.S.
    
    	2. It's still only one person's opinion of the animal. Sure, they
           are "qualified" by the respective registry but so are the judges 
           in show ring halter classes. I doubt that you could get any of 
    	   them to place the horses in the same order twice! I wonder, if
           the same keurmiester saw the same set of horses 2 years later
           without knowing it, whether or not they would rate the same 
           horse the same. Frankly, I frequently disagree with conformation
           judges and other "experts" about which is the best made 
           horse in the group so I find it hard to accept the word of any 
           "expert."
    
    	3. The scariest part of this system is the underlying ethics of it.
    	   When a registry says "Only horses that are offspring of horses we 
           say are fit to breed will be registered," that's scary. On the
    	   one hand, the "club" has some rights about who its members will be.
    	   Except of course when somebody can show that there's "harm" of
           some sort to those excluded from the club(e.g. recent court
           rulings that certain men's clubs must admit women, country clubs
           must admit non-white members, etc.) Such registries are really 
           saying something that I find ethically unacceptable. They are 
           expunging the "unfit" genes from the pool and declaring that what 
           they want is the superior stuff. One has to be very careful with 
           thought processes like that. The implications are obvious.
    
    	4. The other thing about this is I'm just waiting for somebody
           to sue such a registry for denying approval to their stallion on
           the grounds that it lessened his value and his stud fee. The
           suit would probably be based on economic loss or restraint of 
           trade issues. Similar things have happened in the Morgan 
           registry even though its a closed registry and the only rules 
           are parentage must be verified, no white above the knees
           except on the face and no blue eyes. People have sued over
           both the "white rule" and verification of parentage.

    Okay devils advocate....I'll bite...;^)
    
    1.  Agreed, it is very expensive, and logistically difficult.  Again
    	one of the main reasons to switch to an Americain system.
    
    2.  I know the Dutch have gone thru some serious training to be qualified
    	as a chief inspector.  For the Fjords, The kuering team consisted
    	of a lead inspector, and a second inspector and an Fjord carded 
    	judge (we don't have approved inspectors in the US) and the total 
    	rating was based on the inputs from the three inspectors.....so
    	it was not really one person.  How is it for WBs?
    
    Some types of faults are very obvious like an over built or under built
    topline, crooked legs, a too thick, thin or short neck.....stuff like
    that.  
    
    John you are right in saying the same horse may not get the same
    rating 2 years in a row.....but that's the beauty of the process.  A
    mare who may be maturing later than others may be over built in the top
    line and may not be filled out appropiatly, however w/ conditioning
    and a year to catch up she may be the top rated horse the following
    year.
    
    
    3.  Ethics....Now I like the Dutch coming over.  I hate the breed
    	politics.  With the dutch coming over, it becomes some what less
    	political.  I will do what I can to prevent the politics from
    	rating horses in our US system.  I can't speak for WB registrys, 
    	but for the Fjord, you don't have to be an approved horse to be 
    	bred.  It only helps.  Some of the people who are against the 
    	system have stallions/mares that don't cut it compared
    	to some of the others- and it shows that way in halter placement too. 
    
    
    
    IT may differ in the WB world, but I really enjoyed and learned a lot 
    from the Dutch.
    	

�       <<< Note 1845.17 by STUDIO::BIGELOW "PAINTS; color your corral" >>>

�    	rating horses in our US system.  I can't speak for WB registrys, 
�    	but for the Fjord, you don't have to be an approved horse to be 
�    	bred.  It only helps.  Some of the people who are against the 
�    	system have stallions/mares that don't cut it compared
�    	to some of the others- and it shows that way in halter placement too. 

I love these philosophical discussions :)    
    
I like the Fjord approach that says you don't have to be approved to be 
bred or registered.  This blends into the approach that the breeder/seller 
can advertise their stud/mare/offspring as appropriate and the buyer can 
make their own value judgement with regards to the individual animals
involved along with the actual animals themselves.

As John pointed out, things (esp in this country) become much more risky as 
soon as one (or a few) people start passing judgement.

What bought this all to mind is the issue that the American Quarter Horse 
Association is dealing with with respect to the stallion Impressive who is 
believed to be the orginator of the HYPP gene (hyperkalemic ?) which is a 
nervous system disorder which tends to make fairly bulked up QHs (popular 
for the show ring - don't remember all the details of this disease but 
Equus did a big article on it about 6-8 months ago).  

It sounds like the Quarter Horse crowd has really run the gamut of breed to
Impressive and his offspring regardless of HYPP gene, breed only if HYPP
negative, bar his offspring from registry or what? 

Personally, I'd like the buyers to perform the policing rather than the 
Association (and hope the buyers have reasonable ethics :)

    At one time I was to buy a Fresian Gelding who was blind in one eye. 
    The owners used him to "train" the younger animals in the tracing.  I
    watched him and even drove him a few times.  I loved the beast but just
    couldn't afford the price, something like $10,000.  They kept going on
    about his ratings and such.  Now, the gelding was truely a wonderful
    fella but I could never really show him and in time the other eye would
    give him problems (he was 8years at the time) to the point where he
    would be useless (I have been around blind horses for some time before
    this.  That is why I went to see him originally).
    
    I'm kinda wondering if he could have been judged with this disability
    or not.  I believe he was blind from and injury about 2  years before,
    that is the only way he could have gotten a rating to begin with.
    
    As for the Keuring itself, I think it's a wonderful idea. 
    
    

    Just curious, was he gelded after the injury? I didn't realize that
    the Fresian registered even bother rating geldings, except to perhaps
    examine them as proof of the eligibility of their sires and dams. 
    My friend/neighbor just this past week bought a 1.5 yr Fresian colt,
    she searched long and hard for the right one, finally finding him in
    Michigan.  He's arriving in NH in mid-April.  In the snapshots and
    video I have seen of him, he is magnificent..15.3 already, with a dead
    quiet attitude.  In his 3 month old inspection, he achieved the highest
    rating. He's required to be inspected again in the fall of 95, at which
    point if he does not become qualified as a premium stallion, she will
    geld him as she's not interested in allowing cross-breeding, etc.  His
    sire was one of only 9 approved US studs, and his dam was also a
    premium mare, so he's got the bloodlines to make it...and he certainly
    has the price tag too! :-)  It's going to be an interesting spring,
    Im looking forward to helping her work with him, etc...and I am
    certainly hoping he can utimately achieve 'approved' status, if not
    he'll probably be the most expensive backyard gelding in NH! :-)
    
    

    You friend's colt sound simply wonderful!!!
    
    I believe he was gelded after the loss of sight.  I'm not sure how he
    lost sight in that eye either.  I am now wondering if it was a
    progressive problem and that's why they gelded him.  It could be that
    he would never be able to compete at the proper level to maintain his
    high ratings.
    
    

    
    	Linda - was that colt by Jeremiah?
    
    	Sherry

    Sherry,
    
    I'm not positive, but I believe the sire's name to be "Ludse" or 
    something like that.  I will ask my friend when I see her this weekend,
    though, to be sure. She also told me the dam's name, but I am drawing
    a TOTAL blank there. I'll let you know, though...
    
    Linda
    

I just bought a 3 yr old Anglo-Trakehner filly (coming 3 June). I talked with 
the breeder and was told that she would have to get a NATA rating before I could
breed her (maybe someday).

Are these things published in the local horsie-papers or do I need to contact 
the registry ? Do they ever do videos of these events? Any ideas about where I 
can learn more?

        Thanks for your help,
                JoAnne

    There was a big write up in the pedlar this month on some 
    WB kuerings.
    
    The local/US breed club usually sponser the inspectors coming over, 
    so they should be able to help you.

    Sherry,
    
    Was it you who had asked if my friend's new Freisan colt was sired by
    Jeremiah?? He was not....his sire was 'Bertardt' (or 'Bert' something),
    I finally remembered to ask her yesterday...but defineatly not
    Jeremiah. Actually, the sire died about a year ago.  The dam was
    'Pearl', I do remember that name right, and the colt himself is 'Boaz'.
    He's arriving here on April 18.  Who is/was Jeremiah?? 
    
    - Linda
    

    
    	Jeremiah is a Friesian stud in Michigan. I had inquired about 
    	him recently and was very UNimpressed with the farm and its
    	owners. I was just curious to see if your friend might have a
    	similar opinion. 
    
    	Sherry
    

    Sherry,
    
    I don't believe it's the same farm.  The place where Boaz comes from
    has only one stud currently standing, his name is Ludse. Ludse is pictured
    in a recent Equus issue, along with the only other 8 'approved' studs
    in the U.S....Jeremiah is not one of them.  Boaz's brother, Pyt,
    is also one them, but he is no longer in Michigan.  Boaz's sire was
    the 10th until his death last year. My friend seemed impressed with the
    breeder, who's name I cannot remember, but the farm name is in the
    Equus issue along with the photo of Ludse.  She did tell me that the
    breeder is a recent transplant from Holland, and a bit tough to
    understand! :-)
     

    
    	Jeremiah's father was Mark 282 from Holland. I can't remember his 
    	approval status, but these people were willing to cross breed with
    	anyone who had the cash. There were a lot of other reasons why I 
    	would not do business with them. Their ad appears in Practical 
    	Horseman, I think...
    
    	Sherry