Conference noted::equitation

    I'd think twice, or even more, about corrective shoeing.  When this 
    horse was unshod, she probably wore her hooves into whatever angle
    worked best for her particular conformation.  It could be that your
    farrier, in trying to even up her hooves, did more harm than good, and
    her hooves now no longer match the rest of her leg position.  In a
    mature horse, it frequently doesn't make sense to try any radical
    corrective measures.  Most farriers know this, and will just simply
    balance the hoof itself.  
    
    You might also be able to get away with just shoeing her in front. 
    Hind hooves don't bear as much weight as front, and lots of people find
    they can get by with no shoes behind.  
    
    It would probably be a good idea to check with you vet, too, of course.
    
    -ellie
            

    also, being cow-hocked is a conformation defect - nothing you did.  The
    shoeing might have aggraveted it but you didn't cause it.

    I said she was cow-hocked, maybe that is the wrong description, as she 
    did have straight feet until she was used on the riding school two 
    years ago, it is only in the last year or so her feet have began to 
    turn outwards ????????    Anyway, will it effect the way she is ridden 
    as she seems to be OK as long as you warm up properly?
    
    Lynda

    
    How cow-hocked is she?  Are you saying that she wasn't cow hocked at
    the time she entered the riding school?  
    
    Usually, horses who are cow-hocked were born that way...ie; a
    conformation "defect" passed down from a parent.  I suppose that
    improper shoeing/trimming might worsen conformational tendencies.  It
    probably depends on what kind of care and work she was subjected to
    at the schooling barn.  If she was worked too hard, I suppose her hocks
    could've broken down a bit/or maybe were weak to begin with? 
    Anything's possible.
    Was she vetted out when you purchased her?  If she passed the flex tests,
    etc. without a problem, then you're probably ok in terms of soundness.
    If you're planning on doing a lot of jumping, or high level dressage,
    you might want to consult your vet and get her hocks x-ray'd (if you 
    haven't already).  You might want to get a couple of opinions from
    some reputable blacksmiths in your area, too.  
    In most cases, the greater the severity of the conformational defect,
    the greater the likelihood for problems like unsoundness, etc...
    BUT...I've also seen many horses that were cow-hocked, over at the
    knee, long/short pasterns, blah,blah,blah, that never had an unsound
    day in their lives.  
    
    Good luck
    
    
    
    

    Lynda,
    	My thoroughbred gelding is slightly "cow hocked" and he certainly doesn't 
    lock up.  It sounds more like it has a problem with the stifle ligament.
    At our yard is a mare, which locked up both back legs regularly.  She recently 
    had a small operation at the Royal Veterinary College at Newmarket, during 
    which the vets cut the ligament which "locks" when a horse sleeps standing 
    upright.  This took about 15 minutes under a local. The mare is now well on 
    the way to recovery.  The owner has had other horses with this complaint, and 
    the operation has cured the problem each time.  One of the horses became a 
    good showjumper. I guess you should check with your vet.
    
    Regards  Ian French  Colchester, England

    This is interesting to me because we currently have a horse with
    stiffness in the left rear leg that looks as if she has a wooden leg
    when she first leaves her stall after a few hours of stall rest.  At
    first, she always loosened up, but lately it persists.
    
    She is currently under vet care and is taking bute.  After one week of
    two Tablets a day she showed little or no improvement so the vet upped
    her dosage to 3 tablets per day (1 & 1/2 tablets twice per day).  After
    2 more days she has shown quicker recovery after stall rest but is
    still stiff-legged.  She remains willing to walk and doesn't appear to
    be sore, but she just can't seem to extend her leg normally during her
    periods of stiffness.
    
    Do you think this could be the stifle ligament problem recently
    mentioned?  If so, I would like more details to discuss with my vet.
    
    Thank you.
    
    JW

    Horses with the stifle ligament problem referred to in .-2 have the
    stifle joint lock up while they are in motion. In the severe cases, the leg
    can literally lock into the extended position. So, there you stay with the
    horse's leg sticking out behind until it releases. I think gentle
    traction is sometimes used to unlock the leg and get the horse moving
    again. In milder cases, the stifle just "catches" and the horse takes a
    funny stride or two. The operation prevents the stifle joint from locking.
    
    This is a common enough problem that any competent equine vet would
    recognize it. If your horse is under a vet's care, I'd rather leave the 
    diagnosis to them.

    My mare is fine whilst I am riding her, she just feels stiff, mind you 
    I haven't trotted her for a while so not to cause any strains.  It is 
    when she has been stood in that her leg *locks* and once she has walked 
    she seems to be OK (apart from being stiff).  But standing in does her 
    no favours, twice this week she has not been turned out as the lady who 
    is *supposed* to turn her out hasn't been turning up.  This is really 
    depressing as I have been hacking her every day for the last fortnight 
    to loosen her up (as instructed by my vet).  And it looks like I am 
    going to have to start again.  AHHHHHHHHHHG
    
    By the way the vet only thinks Cloud has strained her leg, but would 
    this cause her leg to lock?
    
    HELP!!!

    Depending on *exactly* which muscle was strained and how badly, a strain 
    could cause the joint to lock or at least be so stiff as to appear 
    locked. Since the joints of the hind leg are tied together and flex/extend 
    at the same time, a strain to one of the flexor muscles would affect 
    *all* 3 joints(stifle, hock and pastern). If it were a muscle that
    flexes the stifle that were strained, it could lock up.
    
    The best and most conservative 'treatment' for a horse with stifle
    locking problems happens to be fittness! Based on personal experience
    with a mild stifle problem years ago, it may well be that your vet has 
    diagnosed a stifle strain and is trying to resolve it with bute to keep 
    her comfortable and exercise to solve the problem. Why not talk to
    him/her, if you haven't already, and find out the details, etc.
    
    
    According to our vet and a couple books on lameness that I've read(1 each 
    by Rooney and by Adams), the most common cause of stifle locking is poor 
    muscle tone. By riding the horse in a way that will increase its fitness, 
    the muscle tone is improved and 'cures' the stifle problem. I've actually 
    used that 'treatment' for one of our horses many years ago. Today, she's 
    still sound even when she's unfit due to a winter layoff or something 
    because she's learned how to use her hindquarters in the meantime. Basic 
    dressage and hacking are the only treatment she ever had. 
    

     You could try taking your horse swimming, I have a 16.3hh Novice
    Eventer and have found swimming him a tremendous help, I did it to help
    maintain his fitness as we were working up to a 2DE.  I had no idea
    that his dressage marks would improve as much as they have done, I took
    him 4 times before my 2DE and I was compeating at One days inbetween
    and he certainly loosened up behind...The judges comments certainly
    changed, I think with swimming him and doing loosening up exercises
    might help providing your horse is not lame.
    
    Wendy
    
    

    Clouds leg problem continued for quite a while, but seemed to be worse 
    when she had been stood in all day.  So it was suggested to me by some 
    of the people on the yard that I should treat it as arthritis, puzzled?  
    What they meant by this, is not that she has arthritis, but to feed her 
    cod liver oil and cider vinegar.  So far this is working great and the 
    cider vinegar seems to have improved her appetite!!!  She has been on 
    this for two months now and her leg locks only occasionally when she 
    has been stood in her stable.  But....touch wood....she has not been 
    affected when I'm riding.
    
    Thanks for listening.

    Anyone have any ideas what this could be?? Saturday morning I tacked
    up for our usual trail ride, and as soon as my mare stepped off I could
    feel 'something different'.  I hadn't noticed her being off at all
    during the week, but I could have just not paid close attention.  We
    walked down the road a bit, thinking she may walk out of whatever the
    problem was. When we got to the nearest dirt road, I got off and walked
    beside her, and could see the 'something different', too.  WHAT I can
    feel and see, I cannot identify. It appears to be the right front, but
    is only slight. Still, I know this horse, and I *know* something is
    wrong.  She seems almost reluctant to bring her right front forward,
    after she does she seems to step on it more quickly/heavily than
    normal. Same situation at the trot...nothing obvious but defineatly not
    normal, either.  Her usual walking stride is very long, and is now
    shortened.  In examining, I can find absolutely nothing....no
    tenderness, no swelling, no heat, anywhere in any legs. I tapped her
    soles with a hammer, no flinching.  No heat in the hooves, no bruises
    or cuts anywhere.  She is wearing boriums, with pads on front.  She IS
    slightly long, I've been putting off the next farrier visit in hopes
    the snow will go away soon (we still have about 2' and a lot of ice), I
    really don't want to spring for another set of boriums only to replace
    them 3 weeks later with summer shoes.  She is turned out with a
    gelding, and they do get to playing, could she have pulled a muscle or
    a ligament in play that would produce no obvious manifestations? How
    long she has been like this I cannot be entirely sure...defineatly 3
    days, no longer than 6 (she was fine last Sunday).  She has only been
    ridden lightly all winter, and I have done nothing strenous with her
    lately that would have caused sore muscles.  She IS 19 years old now,
    and arthritis has occurred to me, but I dont' know what the symptoms of
    arthritis would be.  I do long distance riding with her (10 - 30 mile
    rides), and have never had any lameness at all in the 10 years Ive had
    her.  She did spent her first 6 years of life as a harness
    racer,though, and although I was told she'd had no problems and she
    vetted sound at purchase, I have to wonder.  
    
    The vet is coming to look at her tommorrow afternoon, I was just
    wondering if anyone in here has any thoughts or similar experiences?
    
    - Linda
    

    Also, I meant to include that when I hand walked her Sunday, she 
    seemed the same, but I walked her longer this time. It did seem to walk
    out slightly.  Going up and down hill made no difference.  She was
    stalled overnight, and when she came out of her stall this morning, she
    was stiffer, so it would almost appear to be something that works out
    slightly with exercise and stiffens with rest.
    

	Could it possibly be stifle? I know you said front, but the "coming
	down hard on the right front" part made me think of it. This could
	be in order to get the weight quickly off the left rear.

	I usually look at the horse's head to tell where it's lame, if I
	can't quite decide - sounds very strange, I know. But if the head
	bobs UP on one of the steps, it's to "pull" the weight off a front
	foot or leg. And if it bobs DOWN on a step, it's to lighten the
	weight on the back. Sort of leverage.

	Also, you were speaking of her age and current fitness: if a horse
	is older, or just not as fit as usual, it's easy to pop a stifle -
	even more so if they've ever popped one before.

	And another thing you mentioned - boriums. I don't ride a whole lot
	in the winter, so my personal preference is barefoot rather than
	borium. But they really grab the ground (as well they should) and
	allow for no "scuffing", turning or dragging of the horse's foot.
	Sometimes this causes a little jolt in the knees - so, thought
	stifle.

	And you referred to it as "stiffness" - that's what it feels like
	to me, like they can't bend their back legs and are "poking" their
	toes into the ground as they walk. And all of their steps get
	short - front and back.

	Try backing her up - if she just won't go, it's probably her stifle.
	There are notes in here on it, but it doesn't "walk out" - it just
	gets better over time. Lots of trotting helps to strengthen the
	muscles around the stifle and will help it to get better faster
	and less apt to happen again soon. But once it happens, you can
	be pretty sure it will happen again, especially when they're less
	fit. Don't canter, though, until she's about over it. It hurts, and
	cantering doesn't do any good. You can have her stifles blistered
	if she doesn't seem to be getting any better in a couple of weeks.
	It sounds awful, but it's an okay thing, and seems to work pretty
	well.

	Been there... Good luck!
	
	Julie

    Julie,
    
    That DOES sound like a possibility, and one I hadn't really
    considered. Your comment about her coming down on her right front
    to relieve the left rear caught me attention particularly....many
    years ago when she was being shod once she suddenly cranked her left
    hind as high up towards her body as she could and stood that way for
    a minute before very slowly lowering it.  She walked off fine, and 
    the farrier commented that harness racers frequently have stifle
    problems due to the stress placed by trotting and pacing so strenously.
    That was years ago, and never happened again.
    
    Then, last fall during the last few miles of a 20 mile ride, she
    started stiffening up in back, and when I go off she did the same
    'cramped up' movement, then walked off fine again.  I could defineatly
    feel the lameness coming from behind then, though.
    
    Still, it does seem she has some sort of stifle glitch in her left
    rear that acts up occasionally, perhaps in play she did it again and
    while I wasn't there to witness it this time, it's still causing 
    achy-ness (is that a word?).  I will defineatly mention her past
    occurances to the vet tommorrow, thank you for reminding me of them!
    
    And yes, I did watch for head bobbing....there is none on any
    particular leg that I can detect...but Im not good with lamenesses,
    I could be missing something someone with a better eye than myself
    could detect.  I just know the feel of my mare, and I know she 'feels'
    different....kinda like an old comfy familiar chair, you know when
    someone's gone and restuffed it on you! :-)
    
    - Linda
    

    Another trick of the trade for detecting lameness is to *listen* to the 
    hoof beats while the horse walks/trots over a hard surface. Sometimes,
    you can hear a difference in the amount of noise the hooves makes or
    hear a difference in the rhythm of the foot falls when you can't see
    anything. 
    
    The value of that technique was really impressed on me once when I a
    musical but non-horsey friend was at a clinic with me. While watching one
    rider work, he leaned over and said "What's wrong with that horse? The
    right hind foot seems to strike the ground more softly than the others."
    Yes, the horse was lame in the right hind.

    Well, the vet's verdict was a pulled/torn muscle in the elbow area.
    Yesterday afternoon when I got home, lo and behold, there was swelling
    around the elbow and extending down toward the knee on both sides of
    the leg.  I was a bit embarrassed when the vet arrived because I had
    told him on the phone that I could find NO swelling, but he explained
    that fluid buildup could easily have taken 3 days to extend down low 
    enough to be visible.  He feels she was probably bucking around and 
    playing and pulled something.  I asked if the boriums could have had
    a part in it, and he said that, yes, it is possible because they allow
    no give, but after having put down several horses over the winter whose
    owners had left them barefoot and they went down on ice, he strongly
    recommended I continue to take my chances with the boriums...so they
    stay on a few more weeks at least.  He gave me a week's worth of bute
    and recommended light exercise, plenty of turnout, and start riding her
    again Saturday.  Thank goodness it was something simple!  He also did
    a general overall exam, and pronounced her to be in excellent health/
    condition for her age (19), and recommended that I continue distance
    riding with her until *she* decides it's time to slow down (which,
    with her attitude, could take years!).  
    
    Thanks to everyone who replied both in here and offline, I appreciate
    the tips!
    
    - Linda
      

    I wasn't sure where to put this, so 'stiffness' seemed appropriate. 
    I bought some 'flex' for my horses this spring, the cost is quite high,
    and so I've fed much less then the required dosage to the horses.  They
    didn't have any distinct problems anyway and I haven't noticed any
    difference, but, one week after I got the stuff my 14 year old dog was
    really going downhill.  Some mornings he started not being able to pick
    up his hind end and then he could hardly bend his legs til he got them
    loosened up.  I called the flex company and they told me they had some
    for dogs but also I could use the horses stuff for him. I started
    giving him 1/8 teaspoon.  It's been about 3 months and he is never
    stiff anymore, he's playful again and can get up stairs easy again.
    This is not scientific, it could be the weather, but I'm real happy
    he's no longer appearing in pain. Just wanted to let you know. 
    Has anyone else tried this type of stuff?
    
    Sharon

    Hi Sharon,
    
    Do you mean Flex Free made by VitaFlex?  I bought some this spring
    for my mare and have continued to feed it, though it's a different 
    brand.  I am using Flexxion by Paragon, I got it at Stateline Tack
    which pound for pound was a bit cheaper than FlexFree.  I am very
    pleased with the results.  In the past I've had trouble with my mare
    having stiffness in her stifles but I've noticed an unbelievable
    difference since I started giving her this stuff.  I've also been
    feeding it to my 2 year old who is growing so quickly (she's already
    almost 16 hd and has the body to go with her height!) that her
    stifle was stiff in the morning.  I really can't say enough about 
    the stuff.  Paragon also makes a biotin supplement called Biotin
    Plus that I've been giving my mare.  She's been prone to quarter
    cracks in the past but knock on wood hasn't had any this year.
    
    Linda  

    Yes, the one by Vita Flex.  I bought it mail order through Valley vet
    supply after doing a lot of research as to the cheapest prices, but
    it's still big bucks to feed. Glad to hear your horse is doing well
    on it. Maybe the smidgon I give mine helps them a bit.
    
    Sharon

    
    Sharon, 
      Could you post the ingredients?  I might be interested in it for my
    dogs.
    
    Thanks!
    
    MaryAnne

    Flex and most of the other joint lubricants contain 'chondroitin
    sulfates', advertizing it in one way our another as being the more
    purified than the competitors. 

    A non-noting friend from Europe, Switzerland to be exact is looking
    to buy Flexfree for her horse.  Does anyone know where she can buy
    it so she doesn't have to pay a large fee for having it shipped from
    the US?  If so, please contact Christine or post the info here so
    others can see it also.
    
    Christine Petta@GEO
    DTN 821-4478
    
    
    Thanks for your help
    
    Linda