Conference noted::equitation

    Maybe its just the receptionist.  They sometimes will just state 
    standard policy, but the vet may make specific exceptions for 
    specific people that he or she knows.  (For example, when my 
    cockatiels possibly needed antibiotic injections, the avian vet 
    told me that they don't make a practice of setting people up to do 
    them.  But when she found out that I already do intramusculars on 
    horses and subques on cats, she showed me how to do birds).
    
    Mary

    
    It could just be the big ta-do about rabies and the government (?)
    making it mandatory that cats get vaccinated, along with dogs.
    There is no "proof" that you vaccinated your own pets, i.e. like
    a vet record and possibly a tag.

    I tend to agree with Lynne.....by the vet giving it him/herself, should
    your horse be exposed to Rabies you will have proof positive that the
    horse was given his shot and that it was administered properly and by
    a liscenced vet....all of which you would want to have proof of should
    you be faced with a crisis and state beaucracy at the same time. During
    this time when rabies is becoming such a problem in New England, you're
    better of to keep yourself covered as much as possible. Im sure it has
    nothing to do with your vet not having confidence in your ability to
    administer the shot properly (or at all), but the vets need to protect
    themselves, as well.
    

    re .3
    
    Proof? What proof? The few times I had a NH vet give rabies shots to
    our horses they didn't give us any certificates, etc. In fact, I'm not
    even sure that it was recorded AS a rabies shot....just said 
    "innoculations" on the bill.
    
    re .0
    If you're really ticked about this, why not buy your vaccines from a
    mail order catalog? You can buy anything from them that you can from a
    vet. Some states don't allow sale of rabies and I think NJ doesn't
    allow catalog sale of vaccines at all but other than that you can get
    anything you want. In NY & NJ (and CT?), you have to have a certificate
    of need to buy syringes & needles but those are the only restrictions I
    know of.

    
    There may be local laws about rabies.  
    
    For example, in Iowa, if my dog bites someone, I have to provide proof 
    (by way of a form signed by the attending veterinarian) that the dog was 
    vaccinated for rabies within a certain period, OR the state and/or county 
    has every legal right to destroy the dog immediately to examine the brain 
    for evidence of rabies.   
    
    (I know this because my dog did bite someone and we had a terrible time 
    trying to find the certificate and the county was on its way to impound 
    my dog.  Fortunately, my vet worked for Iowa State and was able to 
    provide evidence from his records when and where and by whom the dog was 
    vaccinated and the state accepted that information.)
    
    There was a period that rabies was so prevelant that the county 
    could insist any animal suspected of rabies be destroyed if a person
    may have been infected AND there was no 'proof of vaccination' as decreed 
    by the county or state.  
    
    I would check out the local and state laws and comply.  Its scary when
    you are confronted with the possible euthanasia of an animal just
    because the right paperwork is not available.  

    RE. -2
    
    My vet gives a reciept the specifies every shot given, and the date. He
    also keeps a record of all his patients on file at his office, and can
    tell you over the phone when and what shots your horse had last. These
    records are maintained by his secretary. I would imagine that most 
    reputable vets would keep history records of their patients.
     

    RE .5
    
    Iowa is one of the states which doesn't allow the sale of rabies
    vaccine to plain folk. Besides, I don't think there are ANY states
    which require rabies vaccinations and proof of vaccination for horses.
    So, the only issue here is whether or not a horseperson can buy the
    vaccine mail-order. I did when I lived in NH. I can't now that I live
    in WA because state law prohibits it...Strangely enough, they don't
    require that you vaccinate DOGS for rabies here so I don't know why we
    can't buy the vaccine.

    In PA only vets are allowed to give rabies shots. Anything else you can
    give yourself, so I get the rabies with the Coggins also. It is a state
    Law that mandates it here, a vet could lose his license for giving the
    vaccine to an owner.

I entered a note in the FELINE conference, and I'll replicate the information 
in this one.  

There is a small-animal vet at our barn.  According to MASS rules and 
regulations, and due to the increasing occurrances of rabies in the area,
if your pet has a bite wound of UNKNOWN origin, and it has NOT had a current
rabies shot on record [with a veterinarian, I believe], you have 2 choices:

		1) DESTROY the animal
		2) QUARRANTINE it for 6 months.

Personally, I would not be surprised to see this extended to horses (if it 
hasn't already). Neither of these would be a pleasant solution for horse 
owners. I'm not sure what the exact guidelines of quarrantine are, but I don't 
think it just means staying on the farm.

    Thank you for this information.  The owners of our farm have 4 cats, a
    dog, a herd of cattle and 3 horses.  So far, they have only vaccinated
    the horses and dog!  I have spoken to them about the cats and will
    speak to them one more time about the cats and also the cattle.
    
    After that, I am very tempted to make a call to the Division of Animal
    Health.  They dragged out getting our horses vaccinated last fall for
    over a month ... I am unwilling to wait that long this time.
    
    mary

    
    	Kathy, I think the other option is to vaccinate the animal
    	for rabies immediately and observe. Six months seems an awful
    	long time when the incubation period is 10 days, is it not? I
    	work at Tufts and they have a lot of rabies propaganda, in all
    	of it I have never heard the six month quarantine mentioned. (?)
    
    	Sherry
    

    UPDATE TO 0;
    
    This is an update to my original memo. I took the the dogs and 
    cats for their annual checkups/shots.  
    
    I had a chance to speak to the vet directly about the rabies 
    shots. He stated that they are no longer giving out the shots 
    to the owner. They prefer to administer the shots themselves so
    that they have proof that the shot was actually given to that
    animal.
    
    So, I said you're going to charge the $25 call fee and the $20 
    visit fee = $45 to give a $7.00 shot? He replied yes. I said
    I live right down the road, I'll put my horses in the trailer and
    bring them here so you can give the shots and that way I can 
    avoid the $45 fee??? He said no, they are not zoned to have horses
    on the property. 
    
    I told him that where the economy is so bad, people will just say 
    the heck with it and not get their horses innoculated. Or they will 
    change to a vet who will be more flexible. I guess I will choose the
    later of the two.
    
    The reason he feels so strongly about this issue is that if anything
    should happen, and he gave the shot, the vet clinic would be liable
    and he feels that is where the liability should be. If I gave the 
    shot myself, and the horse somehow contracted rabies, I would 
    basiclly have no proof that I gave the shot because my name doesn't
    end in D.V.M.
    

    I wonder how many people will actually NOT give the shot at all if
    they can't do it themselves? I know very few people who actually give
    any of their innoculations themselves anyway, all my horsie friends
    consider the annual visit as a check-up, etc and do everything all
    at once anyway. Do a lot of noters in here give their own shots as
    a regular thing?? Why? Does it save a lot of money when you must then
    also pay for a vet visit for the annual check-up, or do people not
    have check ups annually? Im just curious, Id be awful surprised to hear
    of people not giving the shots at all if they cant do it themselves
    with an epidemic going on. I AM surprised to hear that the basenoters
    vet would not allow the horses to be brought to him, though!
    

    What I find amazing is the concept that a farm would purchase
    innoculations, have a record of the amount and type of vaccine
    purchased, not to mention corresponding tags when it is Rabies Vaccine,
    and someone would come along and assume you went through the expense
    and documentation but you didn't innoculate your animals?
    
    That would take an interesting type of owner.

    
    My vet has a couple of 'deals' for vaccinations. 
    
    1.  He has open 'clinics' on a few Saturdays in the spring and fall
    where you can trailer in and he does the inoculations at a reasonable
    fee and no call charge. 
    
    2.  He will come to your farm and if you have 5 animals or more to be
    vaccinated he drops the call charge.  And if you have 8 or more
    animals, then he drops the call charge and gives a 10% discount. 
    
    He prefers to be able to give the vaccinations so he can keep in touch
    with his human and animal clients.   So he makes it VERY easy for us 
    all. 
    
    NOTE that I said 5 ANIMALS -- it doesn't have to be just the horses. 
    When he comes out, all the horses, dogs and cats get vaccinated.  

    When I owned 1 horse it was easier to just have the vet come out and do
    it.  Now that I two, with one on the way, it's much more cost effective
    to buy the annual (and pregnancy) vaccines and give them myself.  An 
    added benefit is that I can spread it out and do them one per week so the 
    horses don't get sick or sore (and I don't lose riding time).  I also 
    think it's easier on the animal who isn't turned into a pin cushion,
    and a wreck by the comotion of the vet visit.  I just walk into the 
    stall and stick 'em (no halter or prep or anything).  99% of the time,
    they don't even know it's happened.
    
    As a precaution, the vet will give my foal it's first set of vaccines, 
    as I don't know if it would be susceptible to an allergic reaction.  
    I'll just have the vet give the rabies vaccines at the same time if we 
    can't get them.
    
    Why did I go this route?  I paid $54 for the vet to give the first 
    pregnancy flu/rhino shot, that costs about $3 to $4 depending on the 
    type.  I know the vet has their bills to pay, but so do I.
    
    Anyone else?
    
    
    

    Hi Michele,
    
    Ditto. I find the savings significant. And my animals are more
    comfortable with me.
    
    Due to the large volume of pets I usually have it is necessary for
    the Vet to make one or two trips at years anyway and I have check-ups
    done when he is there versus a separate bill.
    
    We are talking about significant saving if you have 4-5 + horses and
    other livestock.
    
                                                   Amy

    We give all our own shots to the horses. We do everything for the dogs
    except rabies. We can't give rabies here in WA. The vet won't even
    vaccinate the horses himself. We've asked several times. BTW, I checked
    the list of which states prohibit the sale of rabies vaccine to plain
    folk. It's longer than I thought but MA and NH are NOT on the list! For
    completeness, here's the list: AK AL AR CA CT HA IL IN IA KS MD MI MO
    MN MT NJ NM NY NV OK OR PA RI SC SD TX UT VA WA WV and WY.
    
    With 3 horses & 9 dogs, it saves us a lot of money. We pay a MAX of $6 
    per shot but most of them are under $4. Our vets charge a MINIMUM of $12 
    per shot. We vaccinate the horses for flu, EWT, rhino, PHF and
    strangles annually. That's 4 shots per horse. Rhino & flu boosters are
    recommended every 3 months for show horses during the season. For us
    that's 2 more shots per horse. So, we figure it saves over $100 a year
    per horse even if we had the vet do it when they were out for something
    else. If we had to have them out just to give the 3 month booster
    shots, it would cost us an extra $100 or so. I'll save $300-$400
    anytime I can especially whne we're using the same vaccines as the vet!
    
    Similar logic applies to the dogs. We do 3 shots every year which saves
    us $24 per dog x 9 dogs = $216

just a word of caution - allergies can develop at any time.  Maybe not the 
first shot, maybe not the second, but maybe the nth shot.  Procaine reactions
are like this, and you don't get a whole lot of time to react to that one.  

As to why buy the shots and not give it to them?  The 'I forgot' and 'I didn't
have time' and 'It wasn't convenient' excuses all come to mind.

To the basenoter:  see  if you can hook up with a barn that is having the/a 
vet come and then truck there and get the shots you need.

    
    Also, isn't rabies (and others) a shot that must be given
    intramuscular, rather than Sub-q?   Giving a shot incorrectly
    can mean no protection, and even can cause death......

    
    True, and no one should be giving shots without training which
    is available as assistants to some Vets and by local farmers who
    have been giving intramuscular shots for years. 
    
    I have never heard of a death related to a poorly given shot.
    However, allergies are another subject but most vaccines are sold
    with appropriate warnings and instructions in case of reactions.
    
    RE:  Forgot to give you shots, wormers, etc or were too busy ?
         Than you are a d*rn fool and/or you should pay someone else
         to give them.
    
    Sorry, but that is just not a reasonable thing to imagine if
    you are in the habit of running your farm and protecting your
    live stock. If you don't CARE you don't spend the money at all.
      

    
    	Just for the record..  one "poorly given shot" can produce
    	an anephelatic (I'm sure I spelled that wrong) reaction..
    
    	What that means that an IM intended injection mistakenly
    	into a vein which sends the contents to the brain and with
    	in minutes you have a dead horse.  
    
    	It happened to best friends of mine, who had been trained, had
    	given their own injections for years, and that one time made
    	the mistake of not checking the syringe for blood ... they spent
    	the next five minutes watching their horse go into a crazed
    	shock, drive himself into the walls of the stall and die.
    
    	Not pretty... and cause to consider.  Like you said, no one should
    	be giving injections with out training.
    
    

    I am sorry to hear of this sad event. It is the first I have heard
    of. I was raised on a dairy farm and have worked with my own horses
    and with stables for over 20 years and have had the good fortune
    to have not experienced such a horrible event.
    
    I admit if, by an accident, I had to go through such a thing it would
    have a major impact on me for life.
    
                                  A sad point and I pray rare.

    RE: 15
    
    Boy, I wish my vet gave clinics or discounts!
    
    To the other noters, I agree that a shot given in the wrong
    location can be dangerous if not trained properly. But let's
    say for discussions sake that a person is trained, what is to
    say that the Vet can't make the same mistake?
    
    And while we're talking about dangerous drugs and allergic
    reactions.........
    
    Did you ever read what is in wormer medication? We poison
    the poor animal every 8 weeks. Next thing you know, we won't
    be allowed to give our own wormers! (ok, well I am being 
    a little silly here :-)  )
    
    t

    I always watch my horses *very carefully* after worming,
    for just that reason!  (that it IS poison, and it can cause
    a reaction)

�        <<< Note 1721.11 by MPO::ROBINSON "you have HOW MANY cats??" >>>

�    	of it I have never heard the six month quarantine mentioned. (?)
    
Sherry,
    
Six months may be long for rabies but a six month quarantine isn't usual... 
I believe that animals going into Australia are six months.  Hawaii and UK 
are three months...  (and these are with health certificates.)

    1. All horse vaccines are given IM not just rabies
    
    2. If you don't know how to give IM shots & are afraid to learn, I hope
    your horse never has an injury or infection which requires daily shots
    of medication like penicillin or something. Our vets ROUTINELY leave
    antibiotics , anithistimines etc and expect us to administer them IM.
    Do you really want your vet to come out 1x or 2x a day with a service
    call and procedure fees each time to administer 10cc of penicillin?
    
    If giving IM shots was dangerous or hard to do, do you think vets would
    show people how to do it and leave them drugs? Or that magazines like
    EQUUS would publish "how to" articles and guides on the subject? Get
    real! They'd be sued for mega-bucks if it was dangerous/difficult.
    
    3. Anaphylactic shock RARELY occurs the first time a drug or vaccine is 
    given. Usually, it is caused by a developed sensitivity. In cases where the
    drug gets directly into the bloodstream(like Holly described), a shock
    reaction can occur ANYTIME. 

    Practical horseman had a one page lesson this month on it. They have
    you insert the needle first, then check for blood, then attach the 
    plunger tube to it, etc.  
    
    Sharon

    
    	And.. like John and Sharon have identified... it just requires
    	a bit of knowledge.  
    
    	The only point I was trying to make was that *it* can  happen..
    	And, we just need to be aware.  
    
    	that's all..........
    
    

    I too know someone whose horse died from an improperly given shot. 
    It is very possible and their are plenty of people out there who don't
    know how to give shots and call their vet and have the veterinarian
    administer them.  If you have your horse insured you may null and void
    your policy by administering your own vaccinations.  
    
    Another problem is disposal of needles.  This is becoming a problem
    with all the what ifs of AIDS, do your vets take all their hazardous
    waste with them???  
    
    My vet is very flexible and we have taken our horses to his small/large
    animal practice next door to a restaurant when we had to take a horse
    who was having twice weekly treatment and sometimes he just couldn't 
    get away from his practice.  We have also needed health certificates
    done that way.
    
    Karen