Conference noted::equitation

    
    Have the hay tested....chances are the hay will not be the
    same as the hay from Canada.  The testing service is $12 for
    a printed report.

    What is that stuff, anyway?
    

    Its a trace mineral (that is, a mineral that is essential in minute
    quantities).  Selenium deficiency is linked to tying up syndrome -- it
    somehow helps muscle cells de-toxify after work.

    thanks
    

    Isn't it also easy to overdose on selenium? When my horse needed to be
    on a Vitamin E supplement, I was told to try to get one that had no
    selenium in it, as many grains already have selenium in them (and the
    selenium in the grain, along with the selenium in the Vitamin E
    supplement would have been too much.)
    

    It's possible to overdose, but I don't know how easy it is to.  Too
    much selenium in the soil is a problem in some parts of the country 
    (midwest or west?).
    
    In any event, my horse tied up last Friday, but we caught it very early
    and the vet took blood.  Hopefully the serum profile will shed a little
    light on the nature of the problem.
    
    thanks,
    Mary

    Well, it turns out that Algiers *didn't* tie up after all.  His liver
    and muscle enzymes were normal.  Apparently the problem was just a 
    delayed reaction to his spring shots or a result of not getting out for 
    2 days due to ice!
    
    Mary

    Hey, that's good news! Glad to hear everything's going to be alright.
    
    BTW, did you ever find out about the selenium content of NY soil? I
    know New England is deficient as is our NW soil but I don't know about
    NY.
    
    Like somebody said earlier, it would probably be a good idea to get the
    hay tested so you'd know whether or not to supplement selenium in
    Algiers feed. We have to out here.

    re: (.1) where do you get your hay tested?
    
    Thanks,
    	CArl

    I didn't get the hay tested, but since it wasn't a tie-up, I'm going to
    continue as we have since, once a horse has tied up (which Algiers did
    3 years ago) they are always susceptible to it.  While NY may or may
    not have a selenium deficiency, I'm certain that New England hay doesn't 
    have a surplus of selenium...I read a couple years ago which part of
    the country has that problem, but can't remember.  I think it was
    Colorado or thereabouts.  If I remember correctly (in other words,
    possible but take with a huge grain off salt ;-) excess selenium is
    what puts the loco in loco weed.
    
    Mary

    Some one please explain "Tie-up" for me.....
    
    Thanks, in advance
    Caryl

    My understanding of it is that is kind of a horse's version of lumbago. 
    The large muscle masses of the horse -- mostly in the hindquarters --
    are unable to get rid of the toxins naturally produced when working. 
    Ureic acid builds up in these areas causing severe cramping.  The horse
    will appear cramped, with hind legs tucked well under the body, and finds
    it difficult, if not impossible to move. 
    
    The horse may be unable to urinate, and when it finally is able to, the 
    urine is discolored -- brown or black.  This is caused initially by 
    dead muscle cells, but if the urine has not returned to normal after
    something like 48 hours, it can indicate kidney or liver damage.
    
    It can be caused by taking a horse out of work too quickly.  In fact,
    it used to be known as "Monday Morning's disease" because draft horses
    that worked 6 days a week and then had Sundays off were prone to it on
    Monday.  
    
    The acute form causes the big problems, but nowadays there is a milder,
    chronic form which race horses are prone to.  Vitamin E/selenium
    supplementation has been found to prevent it, as selenium is needed to
    help the muscles detox and vitamin e enables the horse to metabolize
    the selenium.  Electrolytes also help.
    
    It is most prevalent in winter and spring, possible because of the
    sharp temperature changes or perhaps because horses tend to drink less
    in very cold weather.
    
    It will show up in a blood serum analysis with elevated liver and
    muscle enzymes.
    
    When a horse has tied up, the normal treatment is to *not* force him to
    move, keep him warm and quiet, possibly decrease the grain but allow
    him all the hay he wants, keep plenty of fresh water available, and
    administer bute.  As they get better, they can walk further and further
    before they start to cramp up again.  When my horse tied up 3 years ago, 
    at day 3 he could only walk down the driveway and he would start to
    cramp again.  It was 4-5 days before the cramping was completely gone and 
    he could move around and very slowly be brought back to work.
    
    Mary

    In the draft horse field, tie up is also called blackwater. It is one
      of common killer of draft horses.
    
                                                             Gregg
    

    	
    	Re the past few...
    
    	The acid build up in the muscle mass is from lactic acid (I
    	believe).. and Greg is right, they called it blackwater because
    	the color of the urine changes to darker than normal.
    
    	I had a morgan gelding that tied up quite a few years ago, and
    	it is PAINFUL... and it does effect the larger muscles in the
    	back and hindquarters.  
    
    	Vit E helps to process Selenium - and Selenium IS most deficient
    	in the Northeast states (including NY).  When I looked into the
    	situation, I learned a few things, but the best reading was in
    	a back issue of EQUUS.
    
    	h
    
    

    To be safe, I've increased my horse's supplement, although in this case
    it turned out to be most likely a reaction to spring shots combined
    with another supercold spell (was down around zero for several nights
    right after the shots) and not getting turned out for 2 days (which,
    had I known, I would have handwalked him!).

    BTW, a minor caution about supplements containing selenium & vitamin
    E...Don't ever run out! A friend of ours in NH ran out of supplement
    one time and did'nt run right out to get more. She figured she'd get it
    the next time she was at the feed store. Her horse tied up 2 days
    later! The vet told her that she thought it was because the horse had 
    been getting selenium supplement until she ran out. Her theory was that 
    the body went into a "withdrawl" kind of reaction which caused the tie-up.

    
    Following in sort of the same vein...
    
    Has anyone seen Dr. Covert Bailey on PBS?  He wrote the book, "Fit or Fat?"
    
    Anyway, he talks about fat cell metabolism and I was wondering if the
    same type of thing applies to horses.
    
    I'll try to explain, in a nutshell:
    
    Fat cells have a storage function and a depleting function.  When you
    start to exercise, your muscles "call up" your fat cells and ask the
    fat cells to release fat and send it down to the muscle to burn.  For
    optimum performance, fat and sugar must be used up together.  If this
    process lacks a sufficient amount of oxygen, only sugar and a small
    amount of fat is burned and lactic acid starts to build up in the
    muscle.  This is called anaerobic.  ie; if you're exercising and can't
    hold a conversation (gasping for breath), then you don't burn the
    fat and the result is a build up of lactic acid.  Conversely, if you 
    exercise at a slower pace over a longer period of time, you get into
    condition faster (less repair to muscles at night,etc.) and burn fat
    without lactic acid build up.
    
    I hope this came across semi-clearly.  Please correct me if I got any
    of the details wrong.
    
    So, my question is, does this indeed apply to horses in the same way?
    
    It would certainly explain the "Monday Morning" illness.  (I used to 
    board at a place where this one guy would ride only on the weekends and
    get on his horse and gallop the whole time, bring back the lathered,
    wheezing beast and throw him in his stall (probably with a full bucket
    of ice cold water!?) Yikes.  No wonder this horse had a tendancy to
    tie up.)
    
    Anyone up on Equine physiology?
    
    /Simone
    

    It probably applies to horses, but may or may not be related to "tying up."
    I had a hard time following your explanation, but my understanding of
    anaerobic vs aerobic exercise, is that the first builds muscle
    strength, and includes activities such as weight lifting and nautilus.
    The second builds cardio-pulminary strength, and includes activities
    such as "aerobic" dance, running and swimming.
    
    A buildup of lactic acid in your muscles is what causes them to be
    stiff and sore for a day or two after making muscles work harder than
    they're used to.  You can get sore muscles when you first start jogging
    or from carrying a heavy load.
    
    I distinctly remember reading somewhere that tying up involves ureic
    acid buildup -- I will check my books (but can't tonight) to see if I
    can verify this.  When a horse ties up, part the elimination system shuts
    down, making it difficult or impossible to urinate.  It also involves
    the liver, which is why my vet based her recent diagnosis of "didn't tie 
    up" on normal liver enzymes.
        
    What that boarder (who, BTW, should be shot, or better yet,
    horsewhipped and *then* shot) did -- working the horse very hard for 2
    days and then doing nothing for 5, plus not cooling him out properly
    (prolly didn't even bother to warm him up, either, I suppose) would
    absolutely lead a horse to tie up.  Not to mention, foundering him,
    colicking him and leaving the poor thing generally miserable.

    I'm not current on equine exercise physiology but I used to get a free 
    subscription to a conditioning newsletter from one of the vet drug
    companies. I've also seen Covert Bailey's TV shows "Fit or Fat" and
    "Fit or Fat for the 90's."
    
    What you described is very similar to what I remember from my readings
    in equine conditioning. Horses store fat in various body cells. The fat
    is released and burned during aerobic exercise. When the horse
    exercises harder than it is fit enough to handle, they cross the
    threshold into anerobic exercise, stop burning fat and start building
    up lactic acid. BTW, in case anybody's confused, aerobic means
    "occurring in the presence of oxygen" which in exercise means that the
    muscles are getting enough oxygen to function properly.  Anerobic means
    that the muscles are not getting enough oxygen to function properly. 
    
    In fact, equine exercise physiology is similar enough to that of humans
    that many of the human conditioning techniques have crossed over into
    use with horses. Some examples are interval training and carbo-loading.
    
    Exercise programs for horses gernerally include lots of Long Slow
    Distance(LSD) work which is aerobic exercise. Anerobic exercise is used
    to increase strength, prepare the horse to move to the next level of
    fitness and train horses body's to work anerobically(i.e. while lactic
    acid is building up) for short periods of extreme exertion needed in
    some competitive situations.
    
    Sorry,but I'd have to review to be any more detailed than that. It's
    been about 6 years since I read much conditioning literature.
    
    John

    "Tying up" is also known as azotoria (sp).
    
    We are actually feeding supplemental selenium as the hay this last year
    was very deficient in the mineral.  As my horse recieves almost nothing
    but hay it is deemed necessary.  It was a vet who told us about this in
    our area (she also has a breeding/racing operation).
    
    It has been very interesting as both my friends horses have become less
    twitchy when being handled/groomed and more energetic.  My horse is
    alway energetic so I can't tell! (God forbid - more) and he had never
    been a twitcher.
    
    Linda

    Re the basenote's request for info on selenium level in NY hay.
    
    A recent issue of EQUUS(Apr or May 1993) had an article with an
    unlikely title something like "Is oxygen harming your horse". The 
    article turned out to be about how the different body functions react 
    to oxygen and why the minerals in feed are important. One they discussed 
    was selenium and they included a map showing selenium deficient areas. 
    
    The entire state of NY is selenium deficient. But, that still doesn't 
    tell us whether this would have been a change from the Canadian hay you 
    had been feeding because parts of Southern Canada are also selenium 
    deficient. (Surprise! The soil doesn't change significantly at the 
    border! ;-)

    Thanks, John.  
    
    mary