Conference noted::equitation

    I was just looking through the class list for an upcoming show,
    and have again discovered a class I have not before seen...Hunter
    Pleasure? What, pray tell, is the difference between this and
    Hunter Under Saddle, or English Pleasure....I realize that English
    Pleasure is open to saddle seat riders as well as hunt seat, but
    is Hunter Pleasure judged differently? This year I have begun showing
    a TB gelding who is proving to be decently competitive, and I'm
    finding the hunter divisions a bit confusing at times! What with
    "special" hunters, and "low" hunters, and Gawd knows what else,
    how does one know where to go? Can anyone recommend a good book
    or two on showing hunters at a not-so-high level? I do local shows
    mainly, and I'm not interested in taking on Madison Square Garden
    by any means, but even at this level there seems to be so much
    to choose from!
    
    Linda, who is starting to feel lost in the world of hunters before
    I've even begun!
    

   A book which I found very helpful is Anna Jane Whyte-Mullin's book
   "Judging Hunters and Hunt Seat Equitation". It won't answer ALL
   your questions, but it will help you to know what some of the 
   different classes are and how they are judged. She explains faults,
   how to rank them in pinning, as well as a section on conformation.
   If you are going to show hunters this is a must-read book, because
   it tells you how you are being judged. Altho not ALL judges are
   going to judge identically, the better judges will judge by the
   standards in this book. She also explains where the discrepancies
   might occur.
      
   One thing I did was read as many class lists as I could to see
   how different shows define the different divisions. Some class
   lists will give the requirements, some assume that you know.

    
    It is important that you know the asha ASHA rating of the show and if
    in New England the NEHC rating. That will tell what the quality of
    most of your competition will be. Next is doesn't say amauter in the
    title you are most likely going to be competing against professionals.
    The Special Adult division is for 1)beginning adult riders and 2)very
    green horses starting over fences with professional riders
    The Low Hunter is usually an open division - open to juniors, adults
    and professionals - the fences generally do not exceed 3 feet.
    Amauter Adulter Hunter - limited to amauters over 18, fences do not
    exceed 3 feet, the rider does not have to own the horse
    Local Hunter is the same as Lows but there is a limit to how far from
    the show grounds the entry can reside.
    Amauter Owner - fences re over 3 feet - 3'3" or 3'6", riders are over
    18, amuaters and own the horse they are riding.
    Pleasure classes - the horses manner is given lots of consideration,
    NEHC pleasure classes will have western, hunt seat and saddleseat all
    in the ring at the same time.
    
    Now you are really confused - the prize list usually states the
    restrictions - pleasure classes are a good start.
    
    Nancy
    

    Yep, sure does sound confusing! I doubt I'll be competing in shows
    that any pros would bother with, though, or classes over fences
    until next year. We have been doing super in Pleasure classes, and
    I'd thought to try a few Hunter Under Saddle type ones....now at
    least I have an idea of what's out there! Thanks for the
    descriptions...it sounds like there's a lot out there above our
    level, but even some of the smaller shows I've been doing break
    the classes into these divisions. Thanks again!
    
    Linda
    

    Things have changed a lot since I showed in Hunter 15-20 years ago.
    
    Maybe we could start a note containing the definition of things - not
    debating whether those things are good or bad (that's for another
    note), but I have some questions about classes that just weren't around
    years ago.
    
    And I hope other people who have questions will join into this note!
    
    What is short stirrup?
    
    Do they have medal classes for adults?
    
    Are good hand classes only for saddleseat or all disciplines?
    
    What happened to Ladies Handy Hunter?
                                                                        

   Since no one else has answered this I will try.

   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   >>>    Do they have medal classes for adults?

   In MA the Medal classes for Adults (that I know of) are:

    NEHC (NE Horsemens Council)
    MHC (Mass Horsemens Council) (this is new this year)
    SSHC (South Shore Horsemens Council)
     
    Some of the shows in western MA are Affiliated with Connecticut 
    Hunter/Jumper and have CHJA Medal classes.

    There may be more that are specific to regions I am not familiar with.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>    What is short stirrup?
    
    There is Short Stirrup Equitation and Short Stirrup Hunter. These are
    classes for children under 12. (I think it's 12...I looked in the AHSA
    book for an official definition and didn't find one in the hunter section)
    Like the other divisions, Equitation is judged more on the rider, hunter 
    is judged more on the horse. At some shows you will see "Long Stirrup" 
    divisions, which is a division for adults in their first year of showing. 
    
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------    
    >>>    What happened to Ladies Handy Hunter?
           
    Hunter shows used to be gatherings where people could show off their
    field hunters (horses that actually go out on hunts) but the general 
    trend in hunters has been away from that. Norfolk has a show that 
    has classes for field hunters, which judge how the horses act with
    the bellowing of horn and hounds, and behavior in the company of other
    horses. This type of show has become rarer in this area, but these 
    are where you are more likely to find handy hunter classes. I am not 
    familiar enough with field hunters to describe how they are judged. 
 
    Most "hunter" shows these days are geared to the "show" hunter, which
    in many cases is a horse that never has, and probably never will, 
    gallop through an open field following the hounds. In fact, many 
    show hunter trainers shudder at the thought of their precious babies
    risking limbs in open country! :^)  The field hunter people are often 
    equally disgusted with show hunters for the emphasis of beauty over 
    'substance'. (It's not unlike the debate dog people have over bench 
    vs. field dogs.) 

    The emphasis for show hunters is more on equitation and form over 
    fences. As a thumbnail description, they are judged on steady pace,
    whether they have the right number of strides between fences, whether 
    they take off at the right spot (not too early or late) and whether 
    the horse changes to the proper lead either over, or immediately after, 
    the fences. (Preferably over the fence if you are getting into the 
    higher levels of rated shows.) 

    The "good Hands" class has always been for saddleseat riders.  It has
    been around fo at least 30 years that I know if, probably more.  It is
    the equivalent of the hunt seat "Medal" class -- you gain points at
    local shows to be eligible to compete at the finals, previously in
    Madison Sq. Garden.
    
    -ellie

    Thank you very much.  I'm getting back into horses after a lot of
    years, and a lot of these terms are new to me, and I suspect not
    everyone reading the file knows what they all mean either.
    
    I guess I just wonder why the changed the name of children's equitation
    12 and under (or whatever the ages ) to "short stirrup."  I didn't know
    if that meant some sort of riding with specially short stirrups or
    what.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tina

 As fate would have it, the prize list for Norfolk arrived today
 but I don't see any classes for "field" hunters listed.  
 Maybe someone else knows which show has field hunter classes.

   Required reading list for hunt seat riders:

        "Hunt Seat Equitation" by George Morris
	"Judging Hunters and Hunter Seat Equitation" by Anna Jane White-Mullin
	"Winning: A Training and Showing Guide for Hunter Seat Riders" by
					Anna Jane White-Mullin

	Any others?

    I assume you are including hunters over fences and not just the "hunter
    on the flat" classes. If that assumption is correct, I think the
    following are very useful:
    
    "Make The Most of Your Horse", Jan Dickerson (Basic flatwork)
    "Cavaletti", Reiner Klimke (who used to be a 3-day rider)
    
    John(Who used to be a hunt seat rider)

  AHSA Recommendations for Standard
  Distances between fences for Horses**

	Strides		3ft		3ft6in		4ft

	1		25		26		27
	2		36		37		38
	3		48		49'6"		51
	4		60		62		64
	5		72		74'6"		77
	6		84		87		90

  These distances are based on a level ring with good footing.
  Adjustments to these distances should be made for poor footing,
  unlevel terrain, size of arena or any other performance degrading
  factor.

  (**There is another chart for Ponies if anyone is interested)

    

  I found this quote in Anna Jane White-Mullin's book 
  Winning: Training and Showing Guide for Hunter Seat Riders
    
  "In the early 1960's, hunter courses were frequently set in a field
  with the fences so far apart that the number of stride between them
  was of no concern. You simply maintained a steady hunting pace around
  the course, [which was] often built on uneven terrain, and tried to
  find a bold, but safe, take-off spot to each fence. The open field
  allowed the horse to reach a true hunting pace. Riders who rode too
  slowly were strongly penalized, based on the idea that an overly slow
  pace during a hunt would cause you to fall behind the field of horses
  and get lost in the countryside."

  "All of this began to change in the latter half of the decade. More and
   more hunter classes were held in arenas, which required less land, allowed
   the classes to run in shorter time, provided level and controllable
   footing, and gave the rider a greater advantage over his horse, since
   a railing aids steering and pace control. This containment, however,
   necessitated the measurement of strides between fences, for it soon 
   became apparent that poorly set fences resulted in bad performances
   and accidents."

   "Today, the correct measurement and setting of courses is one of the 
   most important and complicated elements in putting on a successful horse
   show. Any serious rider or coach should understand the basic principles
   of course designing, so that he can set good practice courses at home
   and correctly analyze courses at shows."

    Kiirja,
    
    Since you brought it up, what distinguishes a "Hunter over Fences"
    class from what is commonly called showjumping? With the old style hunter
    courses, there was a clear difference. The hunters did the outside 
    course and the showjumpers jumped in the arena. But I'm not so sure what 
    the difference is anymore. Besides, the size of the course and the purse 
    money, I mean.
    
    Some shows actually offered hunter courses into the mid/late 70's because
    there were "diehards" who wanted them and they were available at show
    sites which also held horsetrials.
    
    John

    re .-1
    
    Showjumping classes count only on the number of faults incurred in
    jumping the course.  In a hunter over fences class, faults are only
    part of the "scoring".  The horse is judged on way of going, manners,
    etc -- sort of a pleasure class with bumps!     8^}
    
    (Yes, I know this is an extreme simplification!)
    
    
    -ellie

    Thank you Kiirja!  I have a question for hunter equitation riders
    showing at the rated shows.  What is the current prefered method
    for reverse of direction in equitation on the flat?  For a while it 
    seemed to be a turn on the forehand.  Now I see most people just 
    half-circling.  And is a turn on the forehand ever seen in an under 
    saddle class?
    
    What sort of divisions are you hunter people competing in?  
    -Kate

    Good question! I wasn't sure what the answer to that was, so I asked
    Kris, who just won her NEHC Eq Medal. I'm riding in Amateur Adult Hunters. 

    In Equitation on the Flat classes, the proper thing to do is a turn
    on the forehand, away from the rail, with the horse *on the bit* and 
    relaxed. However if the turn on the forehand cannot be accomplished 
    while keeping the horse quiet, (ie, no ear-pinning or tail swishing!) 
    on the bit, and with the front feet planted in one spot, then a simple 
    turn away from the rail, without the horse on the bit (horse in a long 
    frame) is suggested. 

    Since my horse is a classic tail-swisher and ear-pinner :^) I opt for
    the second choice which is to keep the horse in a long relaxed frame.

    Kiirja

    re .-1
    
>    Showjumping classes count only on the number of faults incurred in
>    jumping the course.  In a hunter over fences class, faults are only
>    part of the "scoring".  The horse is judged on way of going, manners,
>    etc -- sort of a pleasure class with bumps!     8^}
    
    I agree with Ellie and would only add that "way of going" is defined
    as a long low rhythmic stride (sometimes called "daisy cutters", or 
    "toe pointers"), with the horse in a "training level" frame. In 
    Equitation classes on the flat and over fences, you will see a frame 
    more like a first level dressage horse, and courses that demand 
    sharper more balanced corners (10m circles) as well as collected
    and extended canters required to make the correct number of strides
    to the fences. And then there are 19 AHSA tests that the judge can ask 
    for if he/she wants to break a tie or simply test the participants.

   AHSA Hunter Tests 1-19 

   1. Halt (4-6 seconds) and optional rein back
	(Judge is looking for quality of the downward transition; horse
	 stays collected, engaged and comes to a square halt.)

   2. Hand gallop.
	(Judge is looking for rider in two-point position, and a 
	 controlled three-beat gallop, collected in the corners.)

   3. Figure eight at the trot, demonstrating change of diagonals.
	(Judge is looking for two round circles of equal size, horse
	 bent correctly, with prompt and accurate change of diagonal 
	 and bend at intersection of circles.

   4. Figure eight at the canter, demonstrating simple change of lead.
	(Judge is looking for two round circles of equal size, horse
	 bent correctly, with prompt and accurate change of lead 
	 and bend at intersection of circles. The change of lead may
	 include a few steps of trot.)

   5. Work collectively at the walk, trot and canter. 
	(Judge is looking for quality of rider's position.)

   6. Halt 4-6 seconds. (Not sure why this is separate from test 1.)

   7. Jump obstacles on a figure eight course. 
	(Judge is looking for a horse to change leads either over, or
	 immediately after, the fence. Looking for riders ability to
	 collect and extend gaits in order to meet the fence at a good
	 distance.)

   8. Ride without stirrups. (Drop and pick up stirrups.)
	(Judge is looking for secure seat and quiet leg, with foot and 
	 leg resting in a position as if they were still in the stirrup.
	 Knees may be slightly higher and body slightly more inclined
	 when jumping fences.)
	
   9. Jump low obstacles at a walk and trot as well as canter. Maximum
	height for walk obstacle is 3 feet. Maximum height and spread for
	a trot obstacle is 3 feet high and 3 feet wide.
	(Judge is looking for collection and impulsion on the approach
	to the fence, so that, especially when approaching the fence at
	a walk or trot, the horse has enough weight in the hindquarters 
        to get over the fence. Breaking into a canter just in front
	of the fence shows lack of control. The approach must maintain
	the gait right to the bottom of the fence.)

   10. Dismount and Mount.
	(Judge is looking for a horse that stands quietly and a coordinated
	 rider.)

   11. Turn on the Forehand.
	(Judge is looking for horse to maintain bend through out the body 
	and flexion through the neck, also whether the front feet remain 
        in the same spot.)

   12. Figure eight at canter with flying change of lead.
	(Same criteria as 4, but with flying change of lead promptly at 
	intersection of circles. Cross cantering is incorrect. Horse must
	maintain collected frame through the change and not fall onto
	the forehand at the change of lead.)

   13. Execute serpentine at trot or canter on correct lead or diagaonal,
       demonstrating correct change of diagonal or flying change of lead.
	(Judge is looking for prompt changes at the change of bend, 
	maintain collection through the change of lead, and serpentine of
	three equally sized semicircles.)

   14. Change leads on a straight line demonstrating simple or flying
       change of leads.
	(Same principles as outlined in other tests requiring change of
	lead, as well as straightness. Demonstrating that the horse
	changes lead on cue, and not just because there is a change of
	bend.)
	
   15. Change horses.
	
   16. Canter on counter lead. 
	(Judge is looking for balance coordination and obedience of the
	 horse.)

   17. Turn on the Haunches
	(Judge is looking for the hind feet to move no more than nine
	 inches from original position during the turn. Horse must maintain
	 bend and flexion through the neck.)

   18. Demonstration ride of the rider's choosing.

   19. Verbal test.

   Tests are usually presented in combinations, and given as verbal 
   instructions to the rider, to be carried out immediately.

    I have a question that maybe some of the hunt seat riders can answer.
    In watching international Grand Prix showjumping, I've noticed a great 
    deal of variation in stirrup length. 
    
    What are the advantages/disadvantages in super short stirrups versus
    moderately long stirrups?
    
    What I've noticed is this:
    	Most American riders use "short" stirrups in proportion to their
    		length of leg. Examples: Leslie Lennahan and Margie
    		Goldstein. Notable exceptions are Bernie Traurig and 
    		Michael Matz. 
    
    	Canadian riders tend to ride longer than US riders with Ian Millar
    		riding about the longest.
    
    	European riders ride longer too with the French using long reins as
    		well as stirrups. In fact, the European riders look like
    		they ride w/nearly dressage length stirrups(Maybe 2 holes 
    		shorter?) . That's about how much I shorten my stirrups for 
    		jump training or riding out when we gallop or we expect
    		jumps on the trail. For cavaletti work, I don't bother
    		shortening my stirrups.

    John, I used to do a *lot* of jumping, and did some open jumping as a
    teen.  I find that I need to jack up my stirrups at least 4 holes, if
    not 6, from my dressage length in order to maintain a stable leg and
    balance in flight and on landing.  I'm sure that, at least to a certain
    degree, it depends on your individual proportions.  Although I'm very
    leggy (my legs are the same length as my sister, a former ballet
    dancer), I am not real tall.  So I need to be able to open and close
    more (proportionally speaking) in order to follow a horses movement
    when jumping.  If my stirrups are too long, my leg tends to slide
    forward and interfere with my ability to balance on big jumps (3.5-6
    feet).
    
    mary

    Is it true that Europeans learn to ride balance seat / Dressage
    with forward seat jumping comming later.

    ie, there ain't no hunter equatation...

    or is this dressage propaganda ?

 > What are the advantages/disadvantages in super short stirrups versus
 >   moderately long stirrups?

  Advantages to short stirrups are that you can get off the horse so 
	that it can jump more freely (same idea as a jockey's short
	stirrups) and I find (as many do) that I can shift my weight
	more quickly and effectively with shorter stirrups. Disadvantange
	is you need a really strong leg and/or a really well broke horse
	if you are to be able to effectively steer the horse around
	with your legs. (Theoretically you need the reins only to lightly
	balance/collect the horse, right? ;*} )

  Advantage to long stirrups is that a rider can get "around" the horse
	and has more leg to use to get the horse "up in front" (aka "into
	the bridle".) Disadvantages are that it's harder to get yourself
	up off the horse when he jumps. 

  Most riders will adjust stirrup length by some amount for the change
  from flat to jumping work. What length depends on the size and shape
  of both the horse and the rider. I use different lengths for different 
  horses, although, mainly, the better broke they are the more I shorten. 

  When I do flat work, (especially schooling a horse in lateral movements)
  I'll lengthen my stirrups a lot (or more often I just drop stirrups 
  entirely for the entire time since I hate stopping to readjust them).

  Which is better? Whatever works for you and your horse. (The key word
  here being "works"! ;*} )

  Anyone else go to the Greg Best clinic this last weekend?
  He had several of the riders lengthen their stirrups because they weren't
  able to *sit* on the horse and ride it into the bridle. (He was kind...I
  would have taken the stirrups away! ;*} ) He also took away their spurs
  (and some of them had huge spurs!) so they *had* to use their *legs*,
  not rely on the spur!

    I guess Kiirja hit it on the head because one of the things I've
    noticed is that the rider's with longer(relative to their leg length
    and horse) were able to maneuver better around the course. That extra
    maneuverability seems to shave time for them so that a relatively slow
    speed got them similar times to those of the "Run and Gun" or "Flap and
    Yak" styles. 
    
    Does that mean that those who ride long have to be stronger to get out
    of the saddle?
    
    Re Kiirja's comment "more often I just drop stirrups entirely for the
    entire time"....
    I've always said one had to be a bit masochistic to like hunt seat! ;-}
    
    John

>    Does that mean that those who ride long have to be stronger to get out
>    of the saddle?
 
	Not necesarily. It depends on *what works best*. Depends on how
	the horse goes, how well it moves off the leg, its jumping style,
	(a flat jumper won't throw the rider out of the saddle as much
	as a horse that really rounds over his fences)
        whether it needs lots of support from the riders leg, whether it
	needs the rider to sit back on it to balance or to get off its back, 
	how the rider is built, how secure their seat is and how strong 
	their leg is. There are a lot of variables.

    Am I missing something? If "it depends on *what works best*", wouldn't
    all those variables apply to Europeans, Canadians and Americans alike?
    
    I mean, sure there's variability in the way Americans ride but MUCH 
    less variation among the Europeans, especially within a given
    country. Does that mean that they are ignoring the variables you
    mentioned? Or have they somehow managed to reduce the differences
    between horses?
    

    I have found in my jumping that the shorter I went with my stirrups,
    the less balance I had.  I was taught to right with a good seat and
    started jumping without stirrups at all.  I find leaving mine long
    works best for me.
    
    virginia

    There is no such thing as Huntseat in the UK, at least there wasn't
    when I left.  Hunter classes were "horse judged", of course it helped
    it you had a good rider.  There are "professional riders" - who solely
    ride in Hunter classes (against people like me), they are well known and 
    tend to have the knowledge and ability to show a horse at it's best.
    
    Also the judges may ride the horses in some classes.  This can provide
    hours of amusement especially at the smaller shows!

    
    Years ago when I was in training and showing in Europe, I was taught
    to adjust my stirrups (and thus manner of riding) to the horse - and
    not vice versa.  Mind you, I'm the female counterpart to Ian Miller
    (in height only of course) being 5'11" tall, and most of that is leg.
    
    I have ridden a stylish Connemaragh hunter with long stirrups, and
    a 17.1 hand open jumper with my knees almost brushing my chin.  If
    I was riding cross country eventing I tended to **shorten** my
    stirrups so I could react quickly and get out of the horse's way
    over rough terrain.  Same thing for a particularly rough open
    jumping sequence where we might have to do some severe athletics
    to make the round.
    
    None of my trainers at that time (in Europe) had me adjust my stirrups
    due to "style", but I was frequently told to raise or lower them to
    improve my cues or balance depending on the activity and terrain.
    
    FWIW  -  and by the way, that was +/- 30 years ago.....
    
    Diana
    

    I think 20.30 has the answer.  My understanding is that to maintain a
    solid leg you need the shorter stirrup to maintain security. 
    Where would your leg be and how stable if you are long legged and the
    horse has a narrow barrel?  I agree that the horses confirmation, the riders
    conformation and the combination of the two for a secure leg position
    determine stirrup length.  I'd question a longer stirrup if a rider's
    knee and calf shift back over a jump.                           

 I answer a lot of questions off line for people and since others may 
 have the same questions I thought I'd post some of my replies.
 ------------------------------------------------

	>In the show ring (hunter) when you are at a walk and the
	>judge ask you for a canter.. must you canter from the walk?
	>or can you do a bit of a trott and then canter if it's done
	>in a reasonable amount of time?

 No, you don't *have* to canter from the walk. If your horse can do a 
 very *quiet* transition from walk to canter, then do it. If your horse
 jumps into the canter from the walk, then do two or three steps of
 trot first. Be sure that you do no more trot than that. If you trot
 more than five or six steps than the judge will mark you down as 
 having an unresponsive horse. However--if I was judging at a schooling
 show I'd rather see a few more trot steps and a quiet canter than a
 horse that jumps and rushes into the canter even from the trot. 

 One of the reasons horses rush into the canter is that the rider, upon
 hearing the command is frequently in a rush to follow the instruction.
 TAKE YOUR TIME to establish the canter. Especially if you are in a crowd
 where the horses might get competitive or feel crowded, take your time.
 Wait for the other horses to canter, then get your canter. This looks
 very good if you can get your horse to stay calm while the others are
 moving away. 

 If you tense up when you hear "CANTER" then have someone yell "CANTER" 
 at you and practice *relaxing* when you hear the word! Don't pick up 
 the canter until you hear the word and feel relaxed. (This is also good 
 practice for horses that know what "Canter" means and don't wait for 
 your cues.)

 I ask for a canter NO SOONER than two seconds after I hear the command.
 I count "ONE-thousand. TWO-thousand" during which time I am organizing
 myself (if I need to shorten my reins or whatever) and I LOOK around to
 see where the other horses are so I can plan my ride (whether I need to
 circle, etc). 

 The canter should happen no later than five or six seconds after you hear
 the command, provided you are not crowded in. In that case use whatever
 time it takes to get a nice canter depart.

	>and can you wait until your on the corner to canter or must
	>you do it from where ever you are?
 
 Ideally you should get the canter from wherever you are. If you are thinking
 ahead and the ring isn't too crowded you can circle your horse or walk to
 a corner. If you are along a straight side when they call the canter then
 move your horse's head *slightly* to the outside to encourage the correct 
 lead. 

    Well, since we're on a hunter/hunt seat roll, I'll ask a question about 
    seat/position. When I was taught jumping many moons ago, the position I
    was taught was very different than that which one sees in hunter
    equitation classes today. The position I was taught was based on the
    normal dressage position but with shorter stirrups and enough forward
    lean to bring the rider more onto the pubic bone than the seat bone.
    
    What one sees in many equitation classes, especially the juniors, is a
    "fanny out, arched back, head up" position that looks extremely 
    uncomfortable to me. The position I was taught for jumping/galloping is
    fairly comfortable in that the back is kept flat and you lean forward
    by flexing the hip. 
    
    Here's the question: is what I was taught NOT hunt seat or has hunt
    seat changed in the intervening decades? If it has changed, why? Or
    are these youngsters just exaggerating the position in an attempt to
    place well?

I.   So for those of you in Europe.  If you don't ride hunt seat
     and I can't believe you'd be riding western or saddle seat,
     what are you doing ?

     (I'm sure you have figured out that the hunt seat v.
      dressage styles can be a sensitive subject here.)

II.  I think 99% of the show jumpers jump via forward seat.
     a) is that true and b) what other methods exist.

III. A couple of people have told me that they don't care for the
     politics or either dressage or hunt seat eq and are only interested
     in show jumping.

     How does one do just show jumping ?  As best I remember from hunter
     shows there are classes that are jumping only, ie non-equitation
     but I thought it was a question of how the horse jumps (looks)
     and not knocking down any rails.  Where does time come in ?

Bill,

from my limited (and antiquated) horse show experiences, 

	equitation classes are judged on the rider's style (horse style 
		may/will influence how well you do here)

	hunter classes are judged on the horse's style 

	jumper classes = he with the fewest knockdowns and/or fastest time wins
		(style not considered - purely a performance class)




kathy

    
    I think a lot of us feel slightly "antiquated"!  I know I do.
    
    The last reply was quite correct in the interpretations of equitation,
    hunter and jumper classes.
    
    Some of the "politics" were (perhaps still are) simply personal
    preferences on the part of judges, and classes such as equitation
    and hunter - by definition - are largely pinned based on the
    personal (and subjective) opinion of the judge.  It's nice when
    you are performing for a judge who consistently is him/herself in
    the ribbons, because at least you know their "opinion" is shared
    by lots of other judges!  It's also very very difficult for a
    lanky, rawboned person (me!) to compete against a neat looking
    person of medium build, because no matter how beautifully you
    technically perform your riding, you can't LOOK as good as the
    more compact, well-put-together rider.  The same is true for a horse
    competing in the hunter classes.  A horse that can jump like a cat,
    but tends to look like an octopus in motion just can't take a
    ribbon from a neat mover - especially when carrying one of those
    picture perfect riders!
    
    The open jumper classes are judged solely on the horse's ability
    to clear fences with the least amount of faults (points off for
    knock-downs, points off for knocking the rail).  Some open jumping
    classes are also timed, so between two (or more) horses with zero
    faults, the fastest speed would win.
    
    Going back to the noter who is confused about the "SEAT" - well,
    I think that's where some of the controversy in the equitation
    classes comes in.  Way back in history when I started riding
    jumpers, an arched back (butt sticking out, shoulders up - sitting
    on the front of the tail bones) was intended to throw your weight
    forward, but force your head up.  Even flattened onto your horse's
    neck with your arms stretched forward to follow the nose, your
    head was up and eyes looking between the horse's ears.  Lots of
    good results from the horse with that balance, but it takes legs
    of iron - your stirrups were also quite short.
    
    Later, moderation was the watchword, and the back straightened,
    the stirrups lengthened slightly - and I started to get calluses
    right on my tail bones(!)  Even later some folks went to a slightly
    rounded back - behind the tailbones and "drive the horse forward with
    your seat" became the cry - even more prevalent in beginning classes
    than "keep your heels down"!!
    
    I feel the same way about these styles that I do about length of
    stirrup leather.  What way suits you and the horse best, and what
    gets the best performance out of both of you???
    
    I know that's a pretty controversial attitude.  It used to get me in
    trouble way back when I was teaching and training for a living, and
    consistently in the ribbons - in open jumping.  I wouldn't have
    dared compete in hunter or equitation!!
    
    I don't know a single successful Gr I or II rider who cares one
    way or another what anyone thinks about his/her riding style.  S/he
    does care how well the horse performs.  The biggest problem is that
    you have to have put your time in (LOTS of it) with different styles
    before you can really consider yourself qualified and confident to
    make the right decisions on performance issues.
    

    Thanks, Diana. I think I understood what you said about hunt seat
    position. Would it be fair to summarize it as follows?
    
    There are fads or fashions in equitation. The various styles may suit
    some folks and not others. What one was taught depends on what
    style was fashionable at the time and whether or not your teacher
    followed the trend. 
    
    John

re: .37

>    There are fads or fashions in equitation. The various styles may suit
>    some folks and not others. What one was taught depends on what
>    style was fashionable at the time and whether or not your teacher
>    followed the trend. 
 

	definitely.

(there are also fads in fashion (are pinstripes in or out, do breeches
have a flare or not, do you wear white/buff/canary/rust/grey/etc breeches,
do you wear field boots or dress boots, do you use a quilted saddle pad or a 
fleece one, does your saddle have knee rolls or not, laced, rubber, or plain
reins, brass on the bridle or not, white on the bridle or not, and on and on 
and on........) which can influence judges' impressions of you in the 'style-
oriented' classes.  What you or your horse wears can date you as easily as 
how you ride.)

    "What you or your horse wears can date you as easily as how you ride."
                                      ^^^^^^^^
    Thanks Kathy,
    
    I needed a good laugh. I just imagined everybody going around the
    arena with the year of their birth(either as a human or rider...doesn't
    matter) in big white letters on their back instead of the usual
    competitor number.  Maybe I'm feeling sensitive about my quickly 
    approaching birthday......Naw, never bothered me before......
    
    For the amount of jumping I do, I'll just stick to the flat backed "on
    the crotch" position because it's easy for me. And, it's closer to my
    dressage position so it's not as big an adjustment.

    
    I second that John!
    
    If you want a real laugh - I had an invitation to dust off my saddle
    and ride with a new friend a couple of weeks ago.  I thought I had
    better clean off the boots as well (if your muscles have totally
    fallen apart, they do help).
    
    Well, the "new style" jeans are too narrow-legged to get the boots
    under, so I dragged out an old (used-to-be-too-large) pair of
    breeches and tried them on.  "Not bad'" said I, and stuffed them in
    the washer.
    
    The next day I pulled out a "horsey" magazine while sitting through
    the evening news.  Happened to see an ad for breeches.  Now they
    didn't look like breeches to me - they looked more like ski pants
    as far as I was concerned.  (As I said, it's been a while!)
    Needless to say, after searching the magazine from cover to cover for
    a single picture of someone in breeches as I knew them, I pulled my
    breeches out of the washer - stuffed them back in the trunk, and
    set out for the local equivalent of My Store For Levis to find some
    wide leg jeans!!
    
    Dammit - those breeches were comfy too!
    

    Ha!Ha!Ha!  It must of been a while :-)  Don't worry, thought.  
    The new 4-way stretch spiderman/skier looking breeches are veeery 
    comfy.  Especially the 100% cotton ones on those hot, humid summer 
    days!
    
    mary