Conference noted::equitation

    Sharon,
    
        I once had the same problem with a saddle seat instructor.  She
    was also training my horse.  I started by asking why she needed to do
    certain things (like hit the horse with the whip at that particular
    time) because I felt that she knew more than me and I just didn't
    understand.  But I became more uncomfortable over time.  I think if I
    spoke my mind she would just say I didn't know how to train horses and
    she did so she would do whatever she thought was best.  Through all
    this my horse didn't seem really frightened and she stayed as good
    natured as she always was.
    
        One day we went to pick up the horse to take to a show and the
    trainer came out with her head bandaged and her arm in a sling.  We
    asked what happened to her and was told our horse did this to her. 
    Turns out she was lungeing my horse with side reins on a curb bit and
    really had the side reins tight (I had no idea she was doing this with
    my horse because she never did it when I was there).  When she went to 
    adjust something (forgot what) on the horse, the horse flipped over 
    backwards and smashed the trainer into the fence.  My horse was not hurt, 
    but the trainer sure was.  Well, we took the horse to the show and then to 
    the barn where we were boarding our other horse.  So my horse made the
    decision to leave for me.
    
        Most teachers I've had since then treat horses a lot better.  I
    would just start looking for another instructor.  I'm sure you can
    learn just as much from someone who treats horses in a way with which
    you are comfortable.  I don't think you're being wimpy.  I think I was
    wimpy for not taking my horse home sooner - it was a long time ago and
    I didn't know much about training then - I know better now.
    
    						Jan

    Sometimes having a knowledgable person along with you
    to view this might help.....
    
    

    If the horse is frightened of the trainer/whip and hasn't been
    chronicly disobedient to the point of dangerous (biting, kicking) then
    the punishment is past the point of firmness and goodness.
    
    I try to ask myself the question (hard to do when events are happening
    fast) do I prefer ____(fill in with the results, such as "a late
    transition" or "an unscheduled mastectomy") or an abused, unhappy horse 
    (and being a horse abuser)? 
    
    Other than for a disrepectful, dangerous horse, punishment should 
    not be frightening (note that the word "discipline" means education, 
    not punishment, although we've bastardized it somewhat in this country).  
    The horse should respect the trainer/whip/etc.
    
    I think any punishment should be limited to disrespectful or dangerous
    behavior.
    
    Mary  

    I was recently at the Florida state fair watching a trainer work with a 
    3 year old QH mare.  He was marvelous, light touch and light legs.  The
    horse acted up several time, but never did he tug or pull or hit her. 
    Toward the end of his training we walked over to talk to him and
    compliment him on his style.  He said, an old trainer once told him the
    only strength you need to train a horse is what you have in your little
    fingers.  I only wish all trainers had this outlook!!!
    
    Good luck
    
    

Sharon,

I think you raise a very good question by this topic.  I agree with the
previous replies, particularly one of Mary's points differentiating
'respect' of the rider/whip from 'fear' of the rider/whip. 

But, what some people call 'persuasive techniques' others might consider
to be 'excessive force' and vice versa.   So what I am saying is
sometimes its hard to make that call, and I can relate to your dilemma.

Just this week I was talking with a friend of mine wondering whether
some instruction I've been receiving this winter is too demanding.
From my experience I've learned obvious signs of cruelty or unfairness,
but each situation is different.  I'm working movements that I don't
consider myself an expert in, so its hard for me to know whether
the exercises, and repititions of doing the movements is too much,
or not?   My friends advice was to trust my instincts.

When I think about my own riding (ie from when I was truly just
learning the basics and onward), I've realized that I have  
passive riding tendencies and all my instructors had to show
my how to ride more aggressively.   Now I come across students
and can recognize that trait (which I think is a good one btw).
These people have it in their personalities not to bring any
harm or unfairness to their horses.  But, they need to be
shown how to be more aggressive, while still being fair,
if in fact they want to improve on their horses training.

One of my favorite sayings is 'you can't pat your horse
all the way to grand prix.'  There is a fine balance
of firmness and 'cultivating' that goes on and I (too)
wish I knew that balance for every case.

Melinda

    This is a hard subject.

    I expect horses to stay within certain standards of behavior and am
    'strict' if they go outside those boundaries unneccessarily.

    However, I had the experience of after having a hunter trainer who was
    very slow and methodical and quiet with my mare, I moved and had to
    get a different trainer.  That new trainer was pushy and used a great
    deal of strength with my mare.  The new trainer didn't beat her but
    certainly used more leg, spur, and hand than was necessary.
    (The mare is very sensitive and tries very hard to do her best.  She
    considers a raised voice as punishment.)

    I didn't catch on for awhile.  Then when I started noticing problems
    with the mare, I allowed myself to be convinced that she needed to be
    'fixed'.

    Well, I finally wised up and left (she started 'weaving' while I was
    sitting on her if the trainer was anywhere around).  Her brain was fried.  
    She went from packing me around over the fences to rushing and bucking and 
    panicking.  And went from a very good jumper and mover to a CRUMMY jumper 
    and mover (due to her high level of tension).

    It was 20 months before she started jumping quietly and happily.  And
    her movement and jumping ability is back.

    Sharon,
    
    It seems you have answered your own question in a way. You say you
    dread your lessons(somewhat). You are clearly uncomfortable with
    the instructor and his/her methods. You imply that you don't use your
    instructor's methods when you ride your own horse at home. 
    
    It seems to me that the logical thing for you to do would be move on.
    In your search for a new instructor, arrange to watch her/him teach or
    train. You'll get a sense of their approach and methods that way. Ask
    questions and mull over the answers. If the answers make sense to you,
    the instructor knows what they are talking about. If the answers sound
    like BS or they say "You wouldn't understand", keep looking. My theory
    is if I can't explain it to a novice, I don't understand it well
    enough. I expect that level of knowledge from my instructors.
    
    I prefer "assertive" riding to "aggressive" riding. A rider can assert 
    herself without being aggressive. The difference is one of tone.
    "Please make a 10 meter circle." versus "10 meter circle. NOW!" Of
    course, there are times when you HAVE to be aggressive but they should
    be very few with a good natured horse.
    
    
    John

    If you don't feel you're learning something you want to know from your
    instructor, there's not much point in continuing, is there?  Find
    someone else.  It's too easy to lose sight of the fact that we should
    enjoy our riding time.  It may be hard work, and it may be demanding in
    its own way, but it still should be enjoyable.

    John, you took the words right out of my mouth.  Assertive rather than
    aggressive (unless you're doing 3-day!). 
    
    Another way to look at "discipline" is as being strong enough to be
    tough, as opposed to harsh.  
    
    A very sensitive horse can be raised and trained without ever doing 
    anything beyond raising your voice.  One thoroughbred I knew was 
    approaching Grand Prix and the only time I ever saw him get in trouble 
    (his owner tried to ride him outside on a warmish winter day -- he 
    was racing around her in circles near warp speed.  All his trainer did 
    was gently scold him (Fleury, you stop that!) and he immediately jumped 
    to attention in front of her, looking a little guilty but very happy.
      
    A very sensitive/high energy horse that has been abused will become 
    frightened and will tend to zone out/flip out/go crazy in stressful 
    situations because they don't trust anyone to take care of them.  With
    this type of horse, you need to start over and go very slowly and
    *gently*, rebuilding confidence and trust.  This means not even
    scolding for a very long time and avoiding any potential stressful or
    hazardous situation until the horse has begun to show trust again.
    
    A very sensitive/low energy horse will turn the stress inward.  It will
    show itself in unwillingness to move forward and depression.  Treatment
    is the same as with a high energy horse.
    
    A horse that is very tough inside and has been abused will fight.  This
    horse hasn't been "hurt" by the abuse, but has lost respect for people.
    With this kind of horse, you may end up having to be very severe on
    occasion, but you also must be absolutely fair and consistent and gush
    over the horse any time he (more likely, in my experience) shows positive 
    behavior (willingness).
    
    Over time, with all of these horses, you can bring them back to where
    they are happy and trusting again.  But it does take time, patiences
    and persistence.
    
    Mary  

    I found that the pitch of my voice was enough (except for once) for
    Jasper to understand I was not pleased. He really responded well to a
    low "Bad Jasper" or a high "Good Jasper". 
    
    Of course there was that one time when I actually had to have someone
    hit him with a driving whip while I was on him. When we would go in the
    middle of the ring (to talk to someone ...), he would decide not to
    move. This got progressively worse (it was definitely a test of being 
    assertive). Finally, after a month when even a crop wouldn't budge him,
    my friend had her driving whip and we tried that on him (with me on
    him). I couldn't stop him for 2 revolutions. But from that day forth,
    I never had any problems with him not leaving the middle. 
    
    Actually, the worst way of disiplining him - feed his carrots to all
    the surrounding horses and don't give any to him. That worked well!
    
    There are times when you really need to be firm especially if the horse
    is deliberately putting you in a dangerous position. My friend's horse 
    would dump her but she wouldn't do anything about it. So what do you
    see - an increase in the number of times she got dumped. The horse was
    becoming uncontrollable. It's in that type of case where I would, in no
    uncertain terms, let the horse have it.
    			Cindy

    Mary,
    
    You have characterized Ben very well! He had been abused before I got
    him. He is a very sensitive, timid horse but he's also tough. A WICKED
    combination to try to rehab. 
    
    When we got him 8 years ago, he was TERRIFIED at the sight of a whip,
    hated women, didn't trust people at all, threatened and snapped
    regularly, would flip out at the slightest provocation. Why did I take
    him? Because I knew he wasn't really mean. 
    
    I first met this horse when he was about 4-5 years old. He was a nice 
    horse then. His owner was another of Van Schaik's students and I met her 
    and the horse through him. She later had to stop riding and placed the 
    horse with various dressage trainers before I bought him.
    
    My guess is that one or more of these trainers saw a big handsome good
    moving horse and tried to push him too quickly. I also assume that this 
    person missed the conformational flaw that makes it very difficult
    for Ben to collect. I missed it as did two knowledgeable horse vet's
    who examined him. Anyway, I assume that someone tried to push this horse 
    and laid into him with the whip when he wouldn't/couldn't comply with 
    their wishes. His mind was blown!!
    
    Eight years of careful work have helped significantly. He's safe enough
    to work around and trusts people to take care of him when sick/injured.
    He got over being afraid of women and whips.(A week at an LTJ clinic
    with 25 women fixed that!)  But, he's still not back to the disposition
    he had when I first met him. He still freaks out when you ask him to
    collect too much so we just do 1st/2nd level stuff that he can manage.
    
    This horse COULD have been trained with a raised voice only. Now, I
    have to "threaten" him with a raised index finger when he misbehaves.
    It's actually quite comical to see this massive 1250 lb horse stop dead
    in mid-attack because I stick up a finger!

    There is this German Woman (well known?) who gives Dressage
    lessons in my area (SE MA).  Am I wrong in thinking that
    her comments to riders are way off base?
    
    She tells riders that they are terrible, they don't know how to ride,
    they have no business being on a horse, etc. in what was described to 
    me as a *very* rude manner. (only towards adults, though.  She is better 
    w/ children)  
    
    I was shocked to hear about this.  How could anyone learn from such
    a person?

    RE; Lynne..
    
    Sounds obnoxious to me, Id probably get off the horse and bop her in
    the head or something. :-) Some people seem to thrive on that sort of
    treatment though, they feel it makes them work harder to get favorable
    comments.
    

    Lynne,
    
    That sort of treatment is acceptable *only* for spoiled brats who need
    educating in what's important in life and respect for critters and each
    other (the Leona Helmsley's of the riding world, for example).  For
    anyone else, it can never bring out the best in anyone.  Perhaps people
    who use that as their standard method of teaching *are* the Leona
    Helmsley's of the riding world...
    
    Mary

    
    	Lynne,
    
    	I have a friend who has been taking lessons from Heike Bean
    	for three years and loves her. I have a feeling this is who you
    	are talking about but I have never heard anything bad said
    	about her. (?)
    
    	Sherry
    

    There is such an instructor here in the Seattle area too. He is well
    known nationwide and has produced a couple good riders. However, he is a
    TERROR! He is terribly insulting and most people avoid him like the
    plague. Rumor has it that he hurt his back a few years ago and cannot
    ride anymore or at least like he used to do. The rumor also says that
    BEFORE he hurt his back he was only difficult but has now become
    impossible.
    
    I have never understood why ANYBODY would take such abusive behavior
    from someone they were paying to teach them. Paraphrasing one of the
    figure skaters who changed coaches last year, we students are the
    employers; the instructors are our employees! We DON'T have to take
    that kind of abuse. If a teacher cannot teach and correct her/his
    students without being abusive, perhaps they shouldn't be teaching.
    Such a style will never get the best out of a rider. I hate to think
    how such a teacher rides. If they carry ANY of that style over into
    teaching the horse, they will never get much out of a horse either.

>     Centerline farm in Princeton.  She is quite demanding and incredibly
        It was in Hubbardston actually. I took several clinics from her
	there.
 
     >(Although I think the really tempermental prima-
     >donas tend to be in the huntseat world - imoho). ;^).
	Actually I found the opposite to be true...the thing that really 
        turned us off from dressage was the judges' and instructors' bad
	attitudes. There are a few whackos in every discipline, though.
	
 

    Kiirja,
    
    I can understand how the instructors' and judges' attitudes could turn
    one off.  The reason I am working alone is because I couldn't find a
    teacher locally that even approached the quality of my first teacher
    who is taking students, and I'm not able to do a lot of traveling at this 
    point. The local ones all seemed to think they were god's gift to horses 
    and/or students, yet much of the time I had them  screaming things at me 
    that I absolutely *knew* were dead wrong.
    
    There are some good, fair judges out there and some good clinicians,
    but there are many truly bad ones as well.  I think that teachers and 
    trainers that are truly knowledgeable in dressage and have good attitudes 
    are rarer than hen's teeth.  
    
    I guess that at this point, you have to love dressage enough to put up 
    with a good teacher with a bad attitude, in order to at least learn the 
    right things.  Then the issue is figuring out which one's are truly on a 
    good path.
    
    Mary

    Gee, it sounds kind of like an old dressage trainer we used
    to have in the Springs named Axel.  I heard that he judged
    a show once and told everyone that since it was an English
    Pleasure class and none of the horses looked to be a pleasure
    to ride, he was in a real dilemma as to placement.  He
    also made them canter around a large ring so many times that
    several riders had to drop out.  With him chastising them
    as they went.  
    
    And, I too, have met holy terrors in all disciplines.  In
    fact after my first two years of riding, I'd met so many
    people, both professional and amateur, that had some kind
    of personality disorder that I began to worry about myself.
    
    As I've said before, in this note I think, I flatly refuse
    to take lessons from someone who teaches in this method.  For
    me its counterproductive.  I'm paying a ton of money to have
    this danged hobby and I'm sure not going to spend a nano-second
    unhappy with it if I don't have to.
    
    I'm currently without a trainer after a bad experience with
    my last and I just love it.  I went through a few bad weeks wondering
    if I'd survive without someone to get me through the rough spots,
    but survive it I did.  I'm happy, the horse is happy and for
    the first time since I left Colorado, I feel in control of my
    horse.
    
    Jan
    

    I think it depends on the student.  If I respect a trainer's ability,
    and I think he/she is giving constructive criticism, I tend to be
    pretty thick skinned.  If a trainer told me "You don't know how to
    ride," I would expect that to be immediately followed by instruction as
    to how I should improve.
    
    One think that has helped me is to see a trainer work with someone I
    know he/she respects.  If the trainer starts screaming at this student,
    I know it's nothing personal if he/she also screams during my lesson. 
    I know of some trainers who are more demanding of students with higher
    motivation and talent.  So, what the heck, if I'm going to get yelled
    at, I might as well take it as a compliment. ;-)
        
    Rick

    Re:  last several on instructors
    
    I feel there is a difference between being blunt and abusive.  Having
    someone yell at me doesn't get me anywhere except frustrated and
    anxious.  I have worked with instructors who were blunt, but could
    explain very civilly what I was doing wrong and how to correct it
    without yelling at all.
    
    Some instructors seem to continually yell instructions at you to try 
    to get you to correct what you're doing wrong.  This gets me even more
    frustrated and confused.  I really appreciate someone who can see that
    I'm getting confused and will have me stop, relax, reevaluate what I've
    been doing, and maybe have me try to concentrate on fewer things when I
    start up again and add things in little by little till I can piece
    everything together.
    
    I much prefer someone who encourages me a lot than someone who yells at
    me a lot (whether it's meant to be personal or not).
    
    						Jan

    Re: the few about RL...
    
    I scribed for her once and, after hearing the sneer in her voice in her
    comments about riders/horses, I swore I would never take a lesson from
    her.........BUT
    
    Later, I got to know her as a competitor and she was completely
    different! In her discussions with students and other riders when she
    was not judging, she was perfectly polite and informative...
    
    I never DID take a lesson from her. But, I can see where people could
    think she was either OK or an absolute snot depending on whether
    she had been your teacher or your judge.
    
    However, I disagree with some of the earlier comments. NO instructor
    should EVER prefice instruction with something like "You don't know how 
    to ride!" Statements like that are insulting and just invite anger and/or 
    tears depending on the personality of the rider. If the instructor can't 
    say something more like "It would improve your riding if you...," or 
    "We need to fix the way you ..." then there is something wrong.
    
    I don't want an instructor to go around telling me I'm wonderful...That's 
    what mothers are for ;-)... And, I personally prefer a blunt approach
    as long as demeaning statements like "You don't know how to ride!"
    aren't part of it. Obviously, if I knew all there was to know about
    riding, I wouldn't need an instructor! So, where does s/he get off
    insulting me and telling me I don't know anything? 
    
    end of diatribe....
    
    John

    I think the best instructors are the ones who can figure out what type
    of instruction is needed by which student.  Let me explain.  I ride
    every morning, followed by a man my age who is a medical doctor, and is
    riding about one level lower than I am.  My instructor is constantly
    asking me if I can feel what she is saying is wrong, which is what I
    need, so that I know when and how to fix it.  She occasionally will
    tell me I'm being too soft, to get more aggressive, and sometimes her
    voice rises to express those thoughts as I'm riding by.
    
    However, when it comes to Art, the doctor, it's another story.  He
    believes that he knows everything, just about, and you have to hit him
    over the head with a baseball bat to get him to see the point.  My
    instructor is constantly berating the piece of his riding that she is
    trying to get him to change; such as saying "Art, if you keep
    collapsing your chest like that your horse will never get his shoulders
    out of the ground."  For me the comment would be "Sue, can you feel
    that when you slouch, it's harder for your horse to move freely."  Now,
    if she gave me lessons like his, I would find a new instructor within
    half an hour.  Art has told me the same thing in reverse.  He says that
    if she didn't make a big point about how bad something was, he would
    ignore her.
    
    So, I feel that this is one of the things that make her an excellent
    instructor, is in knowing her students, and adjusting to their styles.

    I scribed for RL once, for a ride, critique, ride type seminar.
    I know where the comments are coming from.  She was gentle with the
    young children, tough on the adults and brutal on the other
    instructors. 
    
    I KNOW I could not hold up as well as some of the instructors did. One
    such instructor got put down for twenty minutes, non-stop, I would have
    had to leave.  But she came back for the second half (I never would
    have had the guts) and she improved dramatically. RL was very pleased
    and I was totally amazed.

==============================================================================
Note 1597.17                  Instructor Attitudes                      17 of 25
ASDG::CORMIER                                        21 lines  12-FEB-1993 13:40
                               -< Not Ms. Bean >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Re: the last few...
    
     Lynne,
    
     I think you must be speaking of RL.  She used to teach out of
     Centerline farm in Princeton.  She is quite demanding and incredibly
     blunt.  I think for the most part, though, she knows her stuff and has
     been around for quite a while.   I remember her giving lessons to us
     during Pony Club (Groton Fairgrounds) and she would certainly yell if
     you didn't do what she told you, or if you slacked off, but she would
     also give praise if you were correct.  Not unlike many other
     instructors around. (Although I think the really tempermental prima-
     donas tend to be in the huntseat world - imoho). ;^).
    
     You probably wouldn't like her style if you're the sensitive type, or
     the faint of heart, or if you don't like someone who calls the kettle 
     black.  I do know of a few people who have been with her for a long
     time and like her just fine.
    
     /Simone

Please be extremely careful when discussing actual people in 
the notesfile, particularly if there are negative attributions.
If you are ever in doubt, suggest contacting you off-line for
more information.

You all did a great job in restraint in this last note series.
The moderators thank you!

Vicky
co-mod

	re: the instructor in question.

	I'm not defending her at all, but she's come up to our barn a
	few times to do clinics. She's definitely not for the "faint
	of heart". She is unwavering in her desire to teach her students
	the classical methods and is very firm in her beliefs. 

	However, because of this desire for the correct following of the
	classical schooling, the proper position, the long-term development
	of horse and rider, she actually does feel that not all people
	should ride just because they want to, and not everyone that
	wants to "ride dressage" should.

	I would not want to be on the receiving end of one of her
	not so favorable discussions, but I have learned alot from her
	and I have to give her credit for being so strong in her desire
	to teach what she believes is correct.

	

    The attitude that not everyone can be a dressage rider is why I find
    the writings of Mary Wanless so interesting. Her goal is to help those
    of us who are not natural riders achive our personal best. Sally
    O'Conners writes for those of us who are not training the perfect
    Dressage horse. I am blessed with an instructor that does not allow
    breed or body type limitations for people or horses, stop her from
    teaching classical riding so that both can be their personal best. An
    open thinking mind is my first criteria for an instructor.

    I think its strange that a teacher would tell someone that they
    shouldn't be doing dressage.  I can see discussing limitations caused
    by their bodies and minds, but I think a correct dressage foundation 
    can be applied to all kinds of riding and can help anyone be a better 
    rider, just as it can help any horse, even though it might not be
    suited to competition or advanced work.
    
    Maybe she just doesn't want to teach the less talented?

    Dear "depraved soul"...
    
    RIGHT ON!
    
    I've been riding dressage for 20+ years and had numerous instructors
    before I met van Schaik. Several of them told me that, when I first
    came to them for lessons, they thought I would be unsuccessful as a
    student or dressage rider because I am tall and muscular...They later
    told me they were WRONG and that my hard work and mental attitude MORE
    than compensated for any "conformational" problems.
    
    BTW, the only comment about physique that VS ever made was that I
    should watch my weight because a paunch is "un-aesthetic!" ;-)

    Hey, is that last comment a hint?  Just the other day, someone was
    commenting on how she envies my lovely sitting trot.  I told her not to
    worry, when t-shirt weather was here, she definitely wouldn't envy my
    extra 10 pounds jiggling and flopping! ;-)

    Yes, it was a hint! That I should stop eating ice cream so I can fit
    into my summer breeches! ;-)

    I found out who it was......but, since we are not supposed
    to but negatives and names together, I would let anyone who
    would like to know contact me off-line.
    
    Lynne