Conference noted::equitation

   I think they probably mean "Selle Francais". "selle" is french for
   "saddle". So what you have is a French Saddle Horse. It is listed
   in books as a breed, and probably will have a registry here soon, 
   if it doesn't already. They are gaining popularity rapidly among the 
   dressage and jumper circles. Congratulations, you are on top of
   a new trend! :^)

    The breed is "Selle Francais", literally French Saddle (Horse). I
    believe that "Sou" is a coin no longer in use.
    
    It is frequently referred to as a French Thoroughbred but that is 
    inaccurate. The French do breed Thoroughbreds (for racing, etc) and 
    many of them show up in the Selle Francais registry. 
    
    To refer to the Selle Francais as a Warmblood would also be inaccurate.
    They are mostly Thoroughbred but have some crosses to other breeds
    including various breeds of European racing trotters. I think there are
    also some crosses to Andalusians and/or Lusitanos...All "hot" blooded
    breeds...which is why I think warmblood is an inaccurate description.
    
    That's about all I know on the subject. Except that ALL French
    equestrian teams are mounted exclusively on Selle Francais!

	Thank you!

	She really is French! I was talking to her last night, and
	instead of saying "neigh", she said "au contraire"! (yuk yuk)

	Thanks again for the information. Figures - I'm in on a trend...
	purely accidentally!

	-julie

   Over the holidays I was scanning the stallion issue of Practical
   Horseman and noticed about a half-dozen "Selle Francais" stallions
   advertised. (Pretty darn nice looking horses, too, I thought!)
   Anyway, I also noticed that some of the Hannoverian stallions had 
   the notation on their ads that their foals were eligible to be 
   registered as Selle Francais. So people are breeding to a Hannoverian
   and prefering to register the foals as Selle Francais...seems like the 
   Hannoverian is no longer king of the warmblood hill! :^) 
   So Selle Francais *is* a bloodline, but it does have a registry.
   How's that for confusing? 

   (As a side note, it seems like they have registries for everything 
   these days, including grade horses! I even know of some people that are 
   trying to start a registry for "Horses That Look a Lot Like Arabs, 
   But We Can't Prove It". No I'm not kidding! Next thing you know there 
   will be a registry for "Horses With Three White Socks".)

   Anyway, my point was that some of today's most popular (and expensive)
   breeding stallions are Selle Francais. Julie, you might want to borrow 
   or buy a copy of the latest Practical Horseman and take a look. Do you
   have your new mare's pedigree?

    Wow! I'm getting to be high-mucky-muck, and didn't even know it!
    That's the only way I ever will... anyhow, thanks very much for that
    information. I'll buy a copy - is that the January issue?

    I have no papers for her, as she was a t-bred/SF cross, and not
    registered. But I'll try to find out more about her sire and
    dam.

    Thanks again!
    -j

    There was also a 2 page ad for the North American Selle Francais Horse
    Association, Inc.(NASFHA) in the stallion issue of "The Chronicle of
    the Horse". The ad listed Selle Francais, "Facteur Selle 
    Francais"(presumably partbred Selle Francais) and Anglo-Arab (Arab x TB) 
    stallions that were approved for inclusion in Selle Francais breeding 
    programs.
    
    For additional info:
           NASFHA, Inc.
           P.O. Box 646
           Winchester VA 22601
           (703)662-2870
           FAX: (703)662-3628
    
    There was also a 2 page ad for Hamilton Farm(So Hamilton, MA) which
    stands Galoubet and Bonjour. Both are Selle Francais stallions approved
    by German Warmblood breeds.
        
    I thought it was interesting that most of the Selle Francais stallions
    were listed as being approved sires for Hannoverian or other German
    Warmblood breeds. 

    I remember one of my college roomates, who was from Paris, raving
    about a French breed used for dressage, jumping and CT that was 
    somewhere between t-breds and European warmbloods, but (in her opinion, 
    of course) much better than either.  I don't remember the French name 
    (it may well have been Selle Francais) she mentioned, but she said it 
    would translate as "French Blood."  Sounds like the same breed to me. 
    Hmmmm...small world.  It was some 20 years ago!
    
    Mary

	Thank you for the NASFHA information. I will certainly contact
	them for whatever they can send me. I'll also try to find
	out who her sire and dam were. 

	Kiirja sent me copies (thanks!) of the PH ads and the wording
	is interesting. For instance, Aerobic, advertised as a Hanoverian
	stallion, "is approved by the French National Stud as a Facteur
	Selle Francais breeding stallion." And "Bonjour: Selle Francais...
	Approved in Germany by the Hanoverian, Oldenburg Registries."

	I don't know much about about warmbloods (except, from the
	dressage note, that they're not the "only" dressage horse to
	ride). Are there strong similarities between Hanoverians and
	Oldenburgs?

	-julie

    Hi Julie
    
    I got a book for christmas which gives a two page description of
    traits, conformation, gaits and usage per breed.  It also details
    connections between similar breeds, plus the pictures are great.  Where 
    is this going, well they did 2 pages on the Selle Francais, and if I can 
    remember I'll copy them and send them to you.
    
    Michele
    
    p.s.
    
    This is the first book I've seen with an accurate description of the
    Icelandic Horse.
    

        <<< NOTED::DISK$NOTES1:[NOTES$LIBRARY_1OF5]EQUITATION.NOTE;2 >>>
                          -< Equine Notes Conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1567.10                     Selle Francais                         10 of 10
KOPEC::ROBERTS                                       47 lines  10-JAN-1992 08:17
                                -< Warmbloods >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    About warmbloods -- they are not "breeds" by the strict definition, in
    that their stud books are not closed.  Thoroughbreds and Arabs, for
    example have closed stud books, so the only horses accepted for
    registry are those with parents which are registered.  And every horse
    with registered parents is eligible for registry.  But with an open stud
    book, horses whose parents are not registered with a particular breed
    can be accepted into the breed based on some criteria or other, which
    varies with the registry.  The standardbred breed, which now I believe
    has a closee book, started out by accepting for registry any horse that
    could trot a mile under a specified length of time (2 min?  3 min?).
    But then, at some point the book was closed.
    
    So with warmbloods, you can have horses registered as, say,
    Hannoverians which are half thoroughbred. or half Oldenburg, or 1/4
    whatever.  Quarter horses have an open book, too.  In fact, the stallion
    Berry Impressive, who stood at Wayne  Cashman's farm down the street 
    from my old farm in Middleboro, had a lot of Thoroughbred blood -- his 
    sire, Impressive, was 7/8 thoroughbred.  Don't know what his dam's
    breeding was.
    
    BTW the warmblood names derived from the areas in which they were bred. 
    Sort of like French wines!  8^)
    
    -ellie

	Thanks! I'd love copies of those pages - this is very interesting.

	I phoned the NASFHA, and they're going to send me information on
	Selle Francais'. When I explained that I had a t-bred/SF cross,
	they said just to get written documentation from the breeders/owners
	of the dam and sire to put her on the register. This is apparently
	a *very* open book! However, having asked around this weekend, it
	looks as though there's no way I can trace her parents. Fortunately
	I'm not interested in breeding her. 

	When the flyers come from the NASFHA, I'll add them to this
	note.

	By the way - the horse's name is Courtney, and I can NOT warm up
	to that name. I've been told I should think up a show name for
	her - any ideas? Something French, feminine and "gray" that
	the announcers won't butcher! I was thinking "La Belle Contraire"
	- 'au contraire' being French for 'neigh'...nay...

	Julie

	I received the package today from the NASFHA. There is a piece on
	the NASFHA and the horses they represent which I'll put in the next
	reply (it's pretty long...). There are also a list of approved
	stallions, a list of French horses for sale, an application to
	the NASFHA, and a brochure which I'll put info from in another
	reply. If you'd like copies of any/all of these, send mail.

	-julie

	NORTH AMERICAN SELLE FRANCAIS HORSE ASSOCIATION, INC.

Introduction

    The North American Selle Francais Horse Association, Inc. (NASFHA) was
    formed in early 1990 to promote and register Selle Franceais, Anglo-Arab
    and other French breed horses. Under official agreement with the French
    Ministry of Agriclulture, National Stud Farms Division, and the
    Institut du Cheval (S.I.R.E), NASFHA has been authorized to register
    North American bred and born Selle Francais and other French horses
    foaled on this continent from 1980 onwards. All French horses registered
    through NASFHA will be entered into the appropriate stud book in France
    and issued a French passport and identification documents.

    Dr. Jean Claude bouffault, a former French Show Team member and President
    of the Paris International Horse Show, had been working with the French
    authorities over several years in order to reach this agreement.
    Regrettably, Dr. Bouffault died suddenly in Paris in May, 1990 after the
    official agreement was reached. Mrs. Bouffault, who shared his love of the
    French sport horse, succeeds Dr. Bouffault as President of NASFHA and
    continues to work for the recognition of the Selle Francais as an
    outstanding sport horse.

    With the formation of NASFHA, French horse breeders now have the
    opportunity to pursue a breeding program of registerable Selle Francais
    and other French breed horses. This was not the case prior to NASFHA,
    and many French breed horses have been registered in other breed
    registeries.

The Selle Francais

    Over the course of many years, and especially since World War II, the
    French have pursued an aggressive breeding program with the goal of
    producing a superior sport horse. Toward that end, they selectively
    crossed the sturdy native horses from the Normandy, Vendee, Anjou,
    Charolais and other regions with Thoroughbreds. By continuing to
    introduce Thoroughbreds in the Selle Francais pedigrees, the French
    breeders have otained their ideal: a big horse with good movement,
    capable of covering ground, with a big-boned Thoroughbred conformation
    and a calm temperament.

    Two early Thoroughbred stallions (both from Ireland) who contributed
    to the Selle Francais ideal were Ultimate (sire of stallions Diable
    Rouge, Kultimate and Prince dy Cy and the broodmare Girondine, who
    produced Alme) and Furioso (sire of Mexico and Furioso II). Certainly
    one of the most influential Thoroughbred stallions was Orange Peel,
    whose descendants include such outstanding sons as Jus de Pomme, Plein
    d'Espoirs and The Last Orange (sire of Ibrahim who sired Alme, who in
    turn produced Galoubet A, I Love You and Jalisco B). Other Thoroughbred
    stallions having an influence are Fra Diavolo (who sired Nankin and Nykio)
    and Rantzau (sire of Kalmiste and Starter). This is, of course, only a
    partial listing of influential Thoroughbred stallions and their offspring.

    Today, the Thoroughbred's influence in Selle Francais production is
    decreasing due to the number of exceptional Selle Francais stallions
    currently at stud. In France, these stallions include Alme (who died in
    the spring of 1991 but whose influence will live on for generations),
    Double Espoir, Elf III, I Love You, Jalisco B and Noren, to name a few.
    In the United States, some of the Selle Francais stallions are Bonjour,
    Galoubet A, Olisco and Ouragan du Vouge ("Rockwell"). Approved Selle
    Francais stallions also stand in Canada, Mexico, Panama and Columbia,
    South America.

    Additionally, the Selle Francais breeding program incorporates Anglo-Arab
    stallions to impart brilliance and agility in gaits and density in tissue,
    and French Trotters (especially as broodmares) to bring energy, simplicity
    and character to the performance horse. For instance Jappeloup, the
    reigning Olympic champion grnd prix jumper, is by a French Trotter out of
    a Thoroughbred mare.

THE FRENCH ANGLO-ARAB

    Another important French breed is the Anglo-Arab, whose breeding in
    France dates back to the mid-1700's. This breeding endeavor was interrupted
    by the turmoil of the Revolution, but after the Restoration the first true
    Anglo-Arab foundations were set. In 1880, the  National Stud defined the
    Anglo-Arab, its principal qualification being a minimum of 25% Arabian
    blood. The breed continued to develop up until World War I and was greatly
    appreciated by the army's cavalry. With the decrease in cavalry during World
    War I, the National Stud encouraged Anglo-Arab breeders to produce a
    competition horse; one result of this foresight was the Anglo-Arab Linon,
    who was the silver medalist in dressage at the 1928 and 1932 Olympics.
    After World War II, the following were among successful Anglo-Arab
    competitors: Harpagnon, Olympic dressage medalist in 1948 and 1952;
    Aiglonne, gold medalist in combined training; and Ali Baba, gold medalist
    in show jumping.

    DThus, the Anglo-Arab long has been successful in all equestrian
    disciplines. Today, the French Anglo-Arab is a somewhat larger horse
    (ranging from 15.3 to 16.1 hands) which continues to excel in
    international competition, especially combined training and show jumping
    where the breed's speed, endurance, agility and courage are showcased.

S.I.R.E

    The Institut du Cheval (S.I.R.E.) in Pompadour is the central registering
    body for French horses. Through its completely computerized system, SIRE
    is able to store and retrieve an enormous amount of data on each horse
    registered, as well as its ancestors and offspring, and to track
    performance records for all.

    The National Institute for Agronomic Research (INRA), through its genetics
    center, works wit hSIRE to calculate the BLUP (Best Linear Unbiased
    Predictor) for each horse competing in show jumping. BLUP is a genetic
    index which is calculated from the entire family of the individual
    (ancestors, descendants and "collaterals") and takes into account the
    value of the mares bred to the stallions. The BSO (BLUP in show
    jumping) is recalculated each year to take into account new recorded
    performances, whether by the individual or another family member.

    In addition, individual indices are calculated in each of the three
    Olympic disciplines: ISO for show jumping, ICC for three-day eventing,
    and IDR for dressage. The individual index takes each winning horse's
    results and compares them to the rest of the population. Median winners
    obtain the index of 100; 15% of the winners reach 120 and 3% of the best
    reach or go beyond 140. For instance, in 1988 Jappeloup had an ISO of
    184; Hymen de la Cour had an ICC of 178 and Hopal Fleury an IDR of 151.

    This computerized data helps the French breeder to select the best horses
    in each discipline and predict with some accuracy the outcome of a
    chosen mating. Through NASFHA's compatible Minitel system, we are able
    to directly link to the SIRE computers for instant retrieval of stored
    data on each horse registered, including its BLUP and individual index.

    This careful and modern breeding program established in France has
    resulted in the creation of an outstanding sport horse, capable of
    competing and winning at the highest international levels. At the 1990
    World Equestrian Games in Stockholm, the French team placed first in
    show jumping and French riders first and third individually; this
    is certainly a testament to the talent of the French sport horses and the
    integrity of the French breeders.

NASFHA's Role

    NASFHA is pleased that the North American breeders of French horses now
    have the opportunity to continue this fine French tradition of sport
    horse production. North American breeders are also fortunate in that
    several good French stallions stand on this continent, and through the
    use of artificial insemination and semen transportation the stallion can
    be as close as your local airport. If a Selle Francais stallion is bred
    to a Selle Francais, French-registered Anglo-Arab, or Jockey
    Club-registered Thoroughbred mare, the resulting foal will be registerable
    in the Selle Francais stud book. If a Selle Franceais stallion is bred to
    a wamblood mare other than Selle Francais, the foal may be registered
    as a Cheval de Selle. If the wamblood mare is inspected and approved as a
    "Facteur Selle Francais", the foal may then be registered as a Selle
    Francais. Additionally, the foal resulting from a registered Thoroughbred
    or French Anglo-Arab stallion and Selle Francais mare may be registered
    as Selle Francais.

    All Selle Francais stallions must be inspected and approved as breeding
    stallions. There is an annual inspection when representatives from
    the National Stud in France visit the United States. At the same time,
    horses of part-French origin are also inspected for approval as "Facteur
    Selle Francais". Each horse is evaluated on three main criteria: pedigree,
    conformation and movement, and performances. The French place a great
    emphasis on the performance background of horses being inspected,
    expecially those seeking approval as Facteur Selle Francais, where
    the pedigrees and backgrounds of the "foreign" relatives are not as well
    known as horses of French origin. If a horse has a slight conformation
    fault, this can be overcome in the evaluation if he/she has a solid
    performance history at the upper levels of his/her discipline.

    Blood typing (parentage verification) is required for all horses being
    registered. NASFHA also allows registration of horses born as a result of
    artificial insemination and/or embryo transfer.

    NASFHA provides year-end awards in each discipline (show jumping, hunters,
    dressage and combined training). Additionally, an award is presented
    anually to the high-scoring French horse at the International Jumper
    Futurity finals as well as to the sire of that horse. One of NASFHA's
    goals is to promote French breeds, educating horse people and the public
    as to the virtues of the French horses. One way we hope to do this is
    through year-end recognition of superior performers.

    The response from Selle Francais owners to the formation of NASFHA has
    been encouraging. If you would like to join NASFHA as a member or 
    register a French breed horse, please contact us.
    

Here's additional info on the Selle Francais, received from the NASFHA.

SELLE FRANCAIS or FRENCH SADDLE HORSE

Origins: This term originated in December of 1958, and describes the old
	local breeds in various French provinces improved by thoroughbred
	crosses and through selection

Stud-book: The Selle Francais stud-book was created in 1965 and unites in one
	volume the various local stud-books. The term Selle Francais actually
	covers 19 different types of crosses.

Physical Type:

    Conformation: generally of good size, with good bone, both energy and power
    (in the case of middle and heavy weights); good muscular development

    Size: 15.3 to 16.3

    Cannon: 20 to 23 cm

    Color: chestnut, bay, brown, grey, roan

    Weight: 450 to 650 kg.

Characteristics of the Breed: good placid temperament; powerful; energetic
    gaits; jumps well; adaptable

Principal Breeding Areas: Normandie, Charolais, Vendee, Anjou, Dombes,
    Eastern and Northern France

Uses: equestrian sports (training, jumping, military); pleasure riding; harness;
    racing (Selle Francais); stallions

Some Champions: Furioso II, Cor de la Bryere, Zeus, Nenuphar, Galoubet A,
    Jappeloup, Jalisco, Je'T'Adore, La Fayette, Val de Loire, Noren,
    Silbersee, Jexico du Parc, Volvo's Lifetime, If Ever, Lutin V,
    Globetrotter, Gulliver B, MOHICAN V

    
    A girl at Maplewood just bought a Selle Francais. He is just 
    beautiful - solid BLACK and what a mover!  I want one!!  :-)
    
    Louisa