Conference noted::equitation

    Can you give more details about what this is all about? 
    
    How does the carriage horse association fit into this?
    
    Tina

    h*lL with that I wanna hear about this cease thing...
    
    

    the thing with the Aquarium was probably about the dolphin being
    sold (or not sold)to the Navy - altho I'm not sure about that. 
    Anyway, I cannot tell from the base note which part is from the
    paper and which is the noter's comments.
    
    About CEASE - I hope this note doesn't turn into a flame on; flame off
    note. Also - from experience in another notes conference, any
    comments made about a particular organization (CEASE) or about
    an institution (the Aquarium) have legal implications. So please
    exercise judgement about comments made. 
    
    Pat
    

    Also about the carriage horse thing- it was about filing legislation
    to allow carriage horse in Boston "X" number of hours off during the
    hot summer days so they would not have to cart tourists around the
    city all day- 7 days a week - in the hot sun without a rest.
    
    I don't have the particulars, - just the basics.
    
    And if it IS the dolphin thing- it was about the dolphin who was
    raised in the Aquarium, was used to people, but was not particularly
    friendly to other dolphins. So the Aquarium decided to sell him to the
    Navy for research - not medical but some kind of demolition research.
    It implied considerable danger towards the animal, and because this 
    particular creature was people-oriented, CEASE - and others- felt that 
    this one dolphin was not a suitable test case. So he was not sold to
    the Navy.
    
    Again, the base note didn't give any specific information - maybe the 
    Lowell paper didn't say much either. 
                

    re. while we are on the subject of animal rights.. do we have a
    notesfile ... on animal rights stuff>>?????
    
    The reason being I have a pet store that I dont agree with the 
    pratices, and there was a sick liitle dog, I convinced them he needed
    a quiter place, becaseu of his brething/heartrate... he was under
    stress and very very ill (eyes glazed,watery, hair matted ,etc)
    they took him out back (where they proably ignored him ) I just
    thought he need medical attention right then and there. someone told me
    they take the sick animal out back and they die eventually.. isnt there 
    something we can do here ?? I need some direction, I'm sick of pet
    stores that have water out for these bunnies (babies) and its so high
    they couldnt reach it.. I came back three hours later and told her
    they could reach thier water (she fixed it) i mean come ON, HOw
    stupid!!
    
    	wendy o'
    

    I don't think we have a conference like that - wish we did. But I think
    the reason we don't is because Digital is opening itself for a lawsuit
    from these various organizations and businesses. This was discussed in
    great length in the Feline files.
    
    The stongest recourse we have is through organizations like the MSPCA,
    CEASE, town authorities, and the newspapers. Also, if you have a 
    complaint you can go directly to the manager or owner and threaten 
    to go to the newspaper. Too often nothing is done because people just 
    don't carry thru with their complaints.
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Pat                     
    I believe that SOME businesses do practive what you have heard - but not
    all busineses. Maybe someone here has suggestions to what can be
    done - other than the above organizations, and working toward 
    legislation of these businesses. 

    Putting your complaint IN WRITING and sending it to the 
    MSPCA (Massachusetts Chapter) worked for me.
    
    Lynne

I worked as a volunteer for the Education Department for the New England
Aquarium for several years in the early 80s. The Aquarium is also the 
site for the Marine Mammal Stranding Institute, responsible for rescuing and
rehabilitating hundreds of marine mammals every year.

It is an institution dedicated to education and conservation. Knowing the
folks their as I do, I know that they are all very committed to this end. I
really would find it hard to believe that their activities could legitimately
provoke animal rights groups (CEASE, MSPCA or others) to call them out on 
the carpet.

I am a strong supporter or animal rights, but I would have to say that I'll
send in a donation to help the Aquarium. 


	-JoAnne_who_used_to_croon_over_the_baby_seals_in_the_rehab_tank_*8^)

p.s. does anyone know how the anti-cruelty laws work for horses, living
conditions, physical condition? i assume that there is some set of standards
that they must go by to legally determine what is considered *cruel*.

    JoAnne-
    
    The laws vary by State.  You would have to check.....
    
    Lynne

    The pedlar had some articles in it fighting the carriage horse
    legislation. The issue was not as cut and dry as was stated in the
    earlier note. The legislation would have affected all driving of
    horses, including any in your own backyard and shows, etc.
    
    I get a little nervous about animal rights groups.  Many animal rights 
    activists would like to ban all ownership and use of animals, even dogs 
    and cats. Maybe loving animals that much is over my head... 
    
    I guess it just depends on which newspaper you read.
    Sharon
    

    I believe the problem with the New England Aquarium was about supplying
    the Navy with one or more dolphins.
    
    My understanding is that the Navy trains dolphins to locate underwater 
    mines with a harness strapped to their backs.  They then use them to 
    locate real mines, with explosives attached to the harnesses.  After the 
    dolphin is trained, it is released into areas where they are trying to 
    find mines.  When the dolphin finds a mine, the dolphin and mine are 
    blown up.  That is why animal rights activists protested.
    
    Mary

    Geez, I though that even the Navy would be smarter than that! 
    
    I doubt that anyone active in this notes conference could ignore
    the animal rights issue completely but let's try for a minute.
    
    It sounds pretty STUPID to spend time and the almighty military dollar to
    train a dolphin for a kamikaze attack on 1 underwater mine! Wouldn't it
    be more effective to give the dolphin time to swim out of harm's way
    before detonating the mine? Or is my ignorance of naval mines showing?
    
    I know that mines explode when they are hit by ships or triggered by
    the magnetic field of a ship...Couldn't they make up some kind of
    detonator that the dolphin could leave in the vicinity of the mine
    which would explode after the dolphin swims away to "fight" again?
    
    Anyway, back to the animal rights side of it. IMHO, if we are stupid
    enough to want to kill each other in wars and other such conflicts,
    it is pretty cruel of us to ask animals to risk their lives so we
    can kill each other! That's why I was perfectly happy to see the US
    Cavalry become obsolete with the advent of tanks! I just wish we could
    get the dogs and dolphins out of the military's hands too! (Fat chance
    though)
    

    
    The rumor mill has it that animal rights fanatics (not everyone
    concerned about animal rights is a fanatic) have started disrupting
    dog shows. Friends of mine in Michigan claim that one group has
    bee going to shows releasing dogs from crates (portable kennels, or
    airline carriers) on the grounds that crating is  cruel. There was
    also a rumor that a similarly-minded crew was going to show up at the
    4 days of shows in Boston a week ago.
    
    Dunno if this is true, but it sure seems misguided to me...
    

    
    	Stu, they did show up at Boston, an acquaintance of mine
    	was there. I guess show stewards escorted people with dogs
    	back to their cars when they were leaving to prevent any
    	confrontations.
    
    	About the Navy, I find it truly hard to believe they would 
    	blow the dolphin up, it takes MANY months if not over a year
    	to train a dolphin, esp when it is expected to go into open
    	ocean and return. When I first heard this story, the navy had
    	a dolphin they didn't feel fit their program and wanted to
    	TRADE him for `Rainbow' at the aquarium, (so why didn't they
    	just blow him up and get rid of him?). 
    
    	Sherry
    

    re: last 
    
    That's so hard to believe that I'd believe it possible that anti-animal
    rights people are doing it to make the animal rights people look bad. 
    I mean, if they want to prevent cruelty to animals I can think of a lot
    better targets than dog shows!  On the other hand, there are people
    that are really ignorant about non-human animals...
    
    I'm with you John.  Just because we humans choose to go around killing
    is no excuse to draft the poor animals into it!
    
    Mary

    re: the dolphins
    
    That's my understanding of how it works -- the dolphin detonates the
    mine and goes with it.  Remember, we're talking about a government 
    agency, so the money & time spent training them is irrelevent. Also, 
    we're talking about the government, so dolphins, like troops and other
    pawns in their chess game, are expendable.
    
    Re:  why did they want to trade their dolphin for Rainbow?  Maybe it
    simply wasn't trainable?
    
    Mary

    
    	Mary, I understand that and would not be surprised if it were
    	true. But I'd like to think it wasn't. The aquarium dolphin (I
    	don't know why I remember his name, but I know it was Rainbow)
    	was too aggressive - I did see him perform and he was bullying
    	another dolphin between shows and inattentive during the show.
    	The navy dolphin was supposedly not reliable enough to send out
    	into open ocean but he was trainable (ie to do all those cute 
    	little tricks...), so it was deemed a mutually appropriate trade.
    
    	I wish I remembered more, it would help all of us if someone
    	had the whole story (?). 
    
    	Sherry
    

    The first paragraph was the only info the paper printed.  Yes
    I think the original issue was dolphins.

    My point is that I would not put the MSPCA or the "original"
    Humane Society in the same category with animal rights.

    This is NOT a cruelty issue.  Prevention of cruelty is not RIGHTS.
    (this sentenance is my opinion, and I don't want to start a
     notes war.  Il'l stop.)

    (There are TWO groups who call themselves the Humane Society.
     One is the traditional one most all of us think of and the
     other one is a true animal rights group.  Their full names
     are different.  I'm really not that current on the subject.)

    The discussion that followed worked out pretty well, thanks esp
    to the past worker at the Aquarium.  I can't imagine losing a
    trained animal to a "regular" mine.  In a real war there would 
    10's of thousands in use wouldn't there ?  Maybe if the "target" 
    was a submarine or something.....

    The dog show stuff is most relevant.  My riding interest is
    Dressage and I can't see these people attacking racing as
    it is a billion dollar industry.  If I was doing CT or
    endurance riding I'd be real worried.  It would not take
    much go get a few short takes of spills over a fence, etc.
    to get a campaign started.  

    The scary part is there are people who believe any animal is equal to
    any human in all ways and as a previous noter said, they think humans 
    should never use an animal for anything as they are equals.

    Bill

    I totally agree with the previous noters last paragraph.
    
    Karen

    
    
    	I like to put in my two cents.. 
    
    	I was as at our club meeting the other night (NETWA) and 
    	we had discussed these animal right people..  Some of these
    	people have been cutting down fences and letting horse to roam
    	since they feel all horses are free animals.  
    
    	They have been showing up at show an protesting.  
                      
    	I don't mind people who feel that the rights of the animal is
    	in jeporday but, if some one cuts down my fences my horses are
    	very close to route 3 so they would be dead horses no free ones.
    
    	I'm not going to continue since I know that it is only a few 
        people who have gone over the deep end and not the hole
        organization.  

    
    
    	I believe (if it hasn't been mentioned already) that CEASE
    	is agianst `animal suffering and exploitation'. Unlike the
    	humane society, they are not concerned with the care given
    	the animal, but with animals being used by man in a manner 
    	that is not their natural destiny, ie horse pulling a cart,
    	dog being shown, dolphin jumping through hoops, etc. None 
    	of these animals would normally do these things in the wild,
    	therefore why should they do them for man's benefit. 
     

However, it is groups like this that give animal helpers the image of radicals
and criminals.  Unless an animal is being treated cruelly or abused in some
manner, I don't believe these people have the right to try to rule what I
can or can't do.  I know that the view of cruel is open to opinion.

I have not and probably never will, give money or support to any group purporting
to help animals.  I, possibly unfairly, view them as radicals and the kind of
people who who sooner do a criminal act than work through honest means.

These are only my feelings and not meant to cause anyone any anger.  So, please
do not take offense if you work for one of these organizations are not one
of the radicals to which I refer.

Ed..

    Like somebody said a ways back, preventing cruelty is different than
    animal's rights.
    
    Cutting down fences to allow horses to roam freely because roaming the
    prairie is a horse's "rightful destiny" is CRUEL and STOOOOPID! The poor 
    critters thus "liberated" are likely to die horrible deaths in fairly
    short order; hit by cars, starvation, dehydration...We are not living
    in the Pleistocene(sp?) era anywmore folks. Horses, cattle and sheep
    are domestic animals whose natural habitat when they were wild has long
    since vanished.
    
    Yes, cruelty is a subjective term. As those of you who are CANINE
    cross-noters may know, Jan and I are also Cairn Terrier breeders and
    work with a Seattle-based group that rescues abandoned/unwanted dogs.
    Last spring, we invited a woman who was interested in adopting a Cairn
    to visit our farm so she could see what a Cairn was.
    
    She reported us to the county Sheriff for cruelty to animals because
    we:
    	A) crate our house dogs when we are not home
        B) have our kennel runs indoors (in the garage) and
        C) stable our horses
    She never asked any questions about the horses but she did ask about the 
    dogs while she was there. We explained that leaving unsupervised
    terriers (especially bitches) loose could result in fatal fights and
    that the house dogs got into mischief when left out alone. We also
    explained that our kennel runs were indoors because there is a large
    population of coyotes in the area and that the previous owners claimed
    to have had two dogs killed by coyotes. We also told her that we took
    the pack out hunting whenever we could.
    
    Apparently she didn't accept that reasoning but she gave us no
    impression that she thought we were doing anything wrong. However, she
    called the Sheriff and spun such a convincing tale of horror that the 
    Sheriff had to formally investigate us, the rescue group had our kennel 
    practices inspected by a local Humane Society inspector....And all of 
    this was dropped on us one evening WITHOUT warning!!! Needless to say, it 
    ruined our day.... Of course, the unannounced inspections worked to our 
    ultimate benefit as they proved that this woman was a flake! The rescue 
    group tried to extract an apology(No hope!). The Sheriff and the Humane
    Society inspector found our practices to be first rate and told her so.
    She turned around and complained to the County about the Sheriff's
    office!
    
    Damn,telling that was good therapy...good thing too because the new
    medical plans won't pay for trips to the shrink! :-)

    I'm glad I started this, and I could not have INVENTED having
    a past Aquarium employee among us.

    Two new thoughts,

    1.  My memory is returning, and I think I have seen shows on TV about
        trained dolphins doing Navy recovery work, attaching a hook and
        line to a 'lost' torpedo so it can be recovered.  There are such
        things as nuclear torpedo's, which should not be left lying around
        down there !

    2.  I read that in one of the Scandinavian countries a law has been
        passed that farm animals have the RIGHT to pasture.  I believe
        this resulted from an anti-"factory farm" campaign.

        Now Dressage & CT (I think Oct '91) just quoted M Poulin and the 
        woman who won some big show in CA (sorry, can't remember her name)
        that they never turn out their horses but ride them every day.

    The couple of real-life examples entered are worth a 1000 philosophical
    discussions.  Thanks,

    There's always the danger of radicals spoiling any valid cause! ;-)
    
    John,  she complained because the horses had a barn!?!  Sheesh! 
    Wonder how *she* would like staying out in freezing rain...
    
    FYI, the Spanish Riding School Lippizaners don't get turned out either
    (once they're off the breeding farm). 
    
    
    Mary

    I know of many horses that never get turned out, either.
    They are at Dressage, Jumping, or Western show horse barns.
    
    
    
    

    Mary,
    
    She sure did complain because the horses were in a barn! Never asked
    why they were in or how long we keep them in between turn-outs or even
    whether or not they EVER got out...Although it's pretty obvious from
    all the fenced pasture around the place that they DO get out!
    
    It is a VERY common practice in Europe(more so on the continent than
    the British Isles) for a horse to get no turn-out. This is especially true 
    of school horses, competition horses for dressage and show-jumping and 
    horses which are in/near urban areas...which includes lots of Europe! Why? 
    Land is too expensive and horses are not a food crop...but they are a CASH 
    crop...just ask anybody who has imported a European Warmblood :-)!
    
    Anyway, it is very common for European riding horses to only get out of
    their stalls when they are being ridden. A German friend once jokingly
    said "Zey come from zee farm to zee riding hall never to see zee light
    uvf day again!" Well, that's the best I can imitate her accent in a
    note but you get the idea!
    
    John

    I just wanted to set the story straight about the dolphins being
    trained by the US Navy.  They do not - repeat - DO NOT send them out to
    be be blown up!  The responsibility of the dolphin is to locate mines,
    torpedoes, etc and either buoy-mark them or lead a diver to them.  The
    humans do the detonation or disarming work.  Dolphins trained for this
    type of work are extremely valuable and not easily replaced.

    Thank you *very* much for entering that!  
    
    Mary

>>    I just wanted to set the story straight about the dolphins being
>>    trained by the US Navy.  They do not - repeat - DO NOT send them out to
>>    be be blown up!  The responsibility of the dolphin is to locate mines,
>>    torpedoes, etc and either buoy-mark them or lead a diver to them.  The
>>    humans do the detonation or disarming work.  Dolphins trained for this
>>    type of work are extremely valuable and not easily replaced.


    Tonight (Tuesday 13-Jul) on Boston public tv, Ch2 the New Explorers...
    9 pm

        The first look at the U.S. Navy's top secret Marine
        Mammal Facilities includes footage of three decades
        of behavorial research.

    I guess it's a repeat but I didn't see the first run.
    Now we can all see for ourselves.

    
    

    Military security signals weakness.  The major weakness of the
    Navy is being vunerable to a diver planting a bomb under a ship
    which is in port.

    The solution is to train dolphins to act like guard dogs
    signaling when they find someone.  No they do not attack or
    kill as the military wants information from anyone captured.

    I can't do the story justice in writing, youl'l have to
    catch the show yourself next time.

    Now some of this makes sense, the out-of-context linking
    dolphins with bombs.