Conference noted::equitation

    20 stall barn w/attached indoor riding ring.  Complete observation
    area for visitors & announcers w/a P.A. system that is inside and
    outside.  Sprinkler system in the indoor ring & barn to wet down
    the ring and in case of fire.  Complete lounge for boarders with
    a game room and indoor swimming pool, jacuzzi and locker rooms
    & showers.  A full tackroom with individual lockers for each 
    rider's equipment (locking and will even fit the saddle!)  with
    a special area for cleaning tack.  Running water in tackroom.
    The isleway of the stalls would be large enough to drive a small
    tractor through so manure could be emptied directly into the spreader.
    Each stall would be a 10x12 with a window & door in the back for
    private turnout for each stall.  The front stall door would be a
    slider with a popout bar grill.  Swinging feed & hay bin for each
    stall to make feeding easy.  I first thought of automatic waterers,
    but I don't like them, so individual buckets in each stall accessable
    by a panel on the front stall wall.  10 stalls on one side, and
    a 5x5 split with the entrance to the indoor ring in the middle.
    Indoor wash stall with hot/cold running water and an attached heated
    drying room for the horse during cold weather.  Individual turnout
    for each horse and also fenced pasture (5 1 acre grassed lots) for
    turnout.  All fencing that white PVC stuff.  3 outdoor riding rings
    set up 1 for jumping, 1 for western and 1 for just working horses.
    A hot walker and a 60 ft round pen for cooling and exercising horses
    & training youngsters. Separate parking away from facilities for
    privacy & quiet.  Special parking for trailers coming to shows.
    I prefer wood for this building, but may consider metal for the
    indoor ring walls.  All set back far off the road with 200+ acres
    and room for expansion.
    
    Phew!  What a dream....
    
    Lynne
    
    
    
    

What she said with one addition.....

lets have this vunderbarn adjacent to some park with horsey trails....

Oh and I dont think there was any mention of a premesis sprayer.

And, while your at it, I wouldnt mind having a groom to do all
the dirty work.  Of course, it should be the rough equivalent of
Hazel for horses.

Heating in the barn and indoor riding ring would be nice as well.

I guess that was several additions.....sigh, now where's that lottery ticket?

jan

    So far, so good.
    
    I'll change the watering so that there is an individual faucet in each
    stall with the bucket hanging under it.  Also, a large field 
    for galloping, with slopes for doing 'circles on hill' work.  Could
    also have x-country jumps for the eventers.  And one outside ring with 
    moderately deep sand for doing muscle building work. Also, the olympic
    size (20 x 60m) indoor should be equipped with mirrors on the short sides 
    (at the ends of each long side track)  and in the centers of the long
    sides.  Also some sort of video setup so you can video and review
    rides.
    
    Mary

    Great so far, but a little unrealistic!  I should have made that part
    of the criteria!  I am talking about the inside of the barn, what would
    the stalls be made of, what kind of doors, how would you set up
    lighting in the barn, what can you do to make watering horses in the
    stalls easier, how would you store shavings/sawdust etc.  I may have
    the opportunity to do this in real life and I have some ideas of what
    I like after having done this for 20+ years but wanted to know what
    others found useful.
    
    Thanks

    automatic (computerized_) grain bin..
    
    can be programmed to your feeding (the horses) feeding schedule..
    and the amount.. and walla.....
    
    
    oh yea and a swimming pool (heated) for horses and another for the
    people :*} and a hot walker, and two round pens and another one....
    
    we used to have our barn airconditioned (it lasted one year :*(    )
    
    		
    		wendy o'

    Re .4 -  But you said $$$ was no object!
    
    Why unrealistic?   I went to a show this past weekend, and
    with a few more additions/changes, this place could be.....
    
    Doors - I said what I liked....wood stalls with slider front
    doors with swinging feed & hay bin.....
                                                          
    Shavings-Make a compartment on the outside wall....put a garage door
    on the outside so that you can order shavings delivered from a loaded
    18 wheeler...it backs up, you fill the compartment, and you can
    get to the shavings from INSIDE the barn. (My friend does this with
    an end stall...very handy)
    
    Automatic waterers throughout the stalls. (I do not like them as
    you cannot tell how much water a horse is drinking, but they were
    in a barn I visited....they make watering easy) 
                                              
    Lights - we HAD to have explosion proof light fixtures in my barn.
    (Town requires them in the barn if used for animals).  
    
                                           
    Lynne
    
    

    Well here are some of my ideas....
    
    I would and what I like is a good size barn AT LEAST 30 x 30 so that
    I could put in at least 10 x 10 stalls. I am thinking of my barn and
    I have five stall and they are this in size the last stall area is 
    where the feed bins are and the stairs to the loft. I wish my loft was
    a gambrell (sp) roof so there would be more storrage of hay or bagged
    shaving. I personally like haveing the hay above the horses it
    insolates the barn more during the winter and I do not have to go out
    side as much in bad weather.
    
    I have clay floors which I also like but I do intend to get rubber mats
    I have in the past had concrete and wood floors and I will not again
    have them in the stalls. 
    
    I have a dirt isle and hope to put in concrete withvery small groves
    in it or put down mats again to help stop slipping of the horses. I
    dirt isles my dogs dig up.
    
    My stalls have nice high front 5' so my horses can just put their heads
    over to visit. I personally like this with my horses....but I also
    like my girlfriends barn that they just built and she bought the metal
    hardware to make the bars over the doors and stall fronts so the horses
    cannot put their heads out....BUT she has a section near the feed tub
    that will fully open and swing open so the horses and look out when she
    wants them to.
    
    I like the sliding doors not the swinging doors...( I hope to change
    them in my barn too some day but did what I could at the time)
    
    I would have automatic waterers in the stalls. I worked at a large
    stable in Framingham at one time (which is now gone) and they had them
    and they were great and HEATED no freezing. They were also easy to
    clean.
    
    I like haveing my tack room seperate with its own door to keep the dust
    out and animals. I would also suggest a door on the feed room and fully
    enclosed to keep out the RACCOONS.
    
    I have very high ceilings that a horse can rear up in and not hit his
    head. I have all my wiring in pipes and I have the lights in these 
    BELL JAR type fictures with heavy protective cage around them that the 
    horses can not break and the dust cannot get into the heat of the
    light.
    
    I would like to also have a washer in my barn for my horse blankets.
    
    well there are other Ideas...but not enough time today
    
    terry

    Re .8 - I forgot about the laundry room!!!
    
    Yes, one of those commercial triple load washers that
    I sneak down to the local laundry to use....they do an
    awesome job of cleaning the blankets, pads, etc!!
    
    Lynne

    Oh yeah, don't forget the payphone in the lounge,
    along with vending machines!
    

    I prefer dutch doors for the horses stalls so they can hang
    their heads out.  I find they are much happier when not in isolation
    from their pals.  For the ones that take advantage of the situation and
    attach passers-by, you can always put up a stall guard.
    
    If you have the horses on the second floor over the hay/whatever, be
    prepared for the first floor goods to get "showered."  We recently had
    to move Algiers out of a 2nd floor stall because whenever the owner
    would start the tractor on the 1st floor, Algiers would get nervous and
    pee.  It was leaking between his stall mats and raining on --
    you guessed it -- Frank's head!!!
    
    Personally, I would also opt for a separate shed to store hay and
    shavings...I'm absolutely paranoid about barn fires.
    
    Mary

    I'd like a simple shelter...like on that "mountain-ranch" in Australia...
    Open...wild...without the finiancal-burden...social restrictions...Able
    to live in a little balance...watchin' the wild-side of them...and
    with the wild riding...and drafting a bit for the heavy work...
    
    Dreaming....MK...

    
    Just disagree with the heated barn and indoor ring - yuck and not
    healthly. definitedly heated lounge and tack room however!
    
    N
    

   I worked/rode at a barn in Concord that had skylights (I think they may
   have been plexiglass).  Most barns are dark even with the lights on. 
   Skylights made all the difference in the world - very cheery and cuts 
   down on the electricity bill.

  Simone

    For lights, we're very happy with the 8' fluorescent ones. The vet
    seems to like it much better because it lights the whole stall.
    You probably need high ceilings though which are also good for 
    ventilation. Ours are 11" high. 
    If you got the fluorescent ones make sure you get the ones which
    light in cold weather, (they are more expensive, this is controlled
    by the balast in the light assembly) and get a mesh cover to 
    protect the horse also.
    These lights are also quite a bit cheaper to run so you save in
    the long term.
    
    Sharon S.

    Pegasos Press offers a Barn Building Book..
    COMPLETE PLANS FOR BUILDING HORSE BARNS BIG AND SMALL..
    
    This complete and detailed plans book presents 12 types of barns from
    the smallest shed to an elaborate barn with cottage.  All the barns
    shown have structural drawings, costs, materials, site plans,
    instructions and are attractive and well constructed.
    
    250 pgs, hardbound $24.95
    
    1-800-537-8558
    
    I have not read it - it just sounded like it would be helpful to
    someone.

    My option..
    
    	I like to my horse to be able to come and go out side there
    stalls.. So probably two double dutch doors on both sides.
    
    That way I could lock them in if I wanted.. 
    
    Also,.. would have the cross ties located where other riders wouldn't
    have to around me to go out side... 
    
    I have my barn set up so that my bother in law does not have 
    to into the stall  to feed or water the horse 
    
    I would like to have my brush close to the cross ties in 
    shoe box cubbie holes so I would have to carry them around
    and have my horse step on the box or have the baby take them
    out and throw them around the pasture.
    
    I would put up sky lights.. (like a previous noter) its a bumer
    when you have put the lights on the in middle of the day.
    
    On the out side of the barn I would have hitching posts and
    outside water so I could give bath's out side....
    
    Each stall would have drainage spot under the floor so that most
    of the wet would go out of the stall..
    
    Donna

    
    Special stall doors for wood eaters and windsuckers might be nice.
    Something with metal on the edges or creosote coating to discourage
    eating the wood maybe?
    
    re. -.13
    Out of curiosity, why do you say that a heated barn and indoor ring
    are not healthy? And is this unhealthy for the horses or for the
    humans (or both?). The barn I go to is not heated, but there is an
    indoor ring. It is very dusty in the summer, but then in the summer
    we tend to use the outdoor ring or field, unless it's raining.
    
    Velvet
    

    I'm fire-leary, and would defineatly have an automatic sprinkler system
    in a large barn, and my ideal would be for all stalls to have external
    doors opening directly outside into a pasture that would be somehow
    triggered by the sprinkler/alarm system and the door latches would
    all release, offering the horses a means of escape. I also want
    seperate hay and shavings storage away from the barn itself. 
    
    With luxuries in mind (I consider the above a safety feature), I'm
    a firm believer in free-access turnout, and would like each stall
    ajoining at least a small paddock. I love the suggestion of skylights
    made a few notes back! And individual built-into-the-wall tack lockers
    in the tack room for security and neatness sakes. I also prefer
    a barn that has several short aisles, rather than one long one, and
    a lot of windows for air circulation. All the stalls should be 12x12,
    what I have now is and my mare is dwarfed in it, but very comfy! Also,
    I like the idea of a covered car-port sort of thing on one side of 
    the barn to store my trailer under cover (it's far to big to fit in
    the garage, I already tried that!). :-)
    
    

    Many of the responses to the base note about what would you like in the
    ideal barn describe a barn for a commercial boarding operation. Others 
    describe a barn for private farm use. There's a big difference! For
    example, somebody said they wanted lockers for clothes and tack. I
    would never have even *THOUGHT* of that because we've kept our horses
    on the home farm for about 15 years! Since we do all the work and don't
    teach/train, nobody else uses the place. 
    
    Which are you hoping to build? Where are you getting the building
    design? Like I said in a related note, we are planning a new barn for
    about 2-3 years down the road. But, it's time to start looking at
    designs. We are planning on a large tack room w/heat and hot water; 6
    stalls; a wash stall/rack; some storage space for wheelbarrows etc; and
    some indoor kennel runs so our dogs have a place where they can get
    some exercise during inclement weather and/or when the local coyotes
    are on the prowl. The coyotes around here have been known to kill dogs,
    even fairly large dogs.
    
    One thing that we need in our barns here in the great NW is space to
    dry the rain sheets and New Zealand rugs during the rainy season.
    That's one reason for a large heated tack room. We'll need floor space
    in a heated area so the sheets don't freeze in a cold snap. The rainsheets 
    are needed frequently and even Gore-Tex lined sheets get wet on the
    outside. I'm planning to build some long-legged saw horses to use as
    drying racks. I'll try the saw horse brackets designed for 2x4's and
    just cut longer legs and a longer "back". When we don't need them as
    racks, the modified sawhorses can be stored in a nested stack to save
    floor space.

    We bought the barn plan book mentioned a few notes back.  It has 
    some good ideas.....to start with.  We will probably modify one of the
    designs to incorporate the ideas mentioned in this file.  We are going
    for a private barn, although some of the neighborhood kids asked if
    we'd board their ponys (they don't have them yet...but they will when
    we build our barn ;^)....we like to go away alot, so it would probably
    be a good idea to have them.
    
    We were just in a new barn with wooden floors (except the stalls, which
    were clay).  I like the idea of the wood floors, they seem to feel
    warmer in the winter, and are more forgiving to the feet (mine) and
    knees.  Anyone have experience with them?
    
    
    we've been tossing around whether to put mats or clay in the stalls.  
    Personally I'm for the mats...but there is a new product out that is 
    an interlocking grid placed in the clay.  Benefits of clay for drainage, 
    and benefits of mats so you wont be replacing clay every year.  We use
    mats now, but sometimes I wish they allowed more drainage.  Comments?
    

    I have clay floors w/rubber mats, Michelle.....
    
    Best investment I ever made, too.  Easy to clean, and
    depending upon the horse, you can use less shavings.
    My QH sleeps lying down, and on a wooden floor, he got
    really bad calluses on his front elbows, and spots rubbed
    bare to open sores on his back legs.  With the clay base
    covered by rubber mats, plus a deep padding of shavings,
    his calluses went away, and the hair has come back in
    the back.  He had what looked like a golf ball on one of
    his front elbows, due to the hard wooden floor.  I noticed
    a decrease in the smell, too, as the mats keep the urine from
    soaking into the clay.
    
    Lynne 

    I have a friend who recently built a new barn, with wooden floors
    thoughout. She seems happy with it, but the first thing I noticed
    right off was the noise her horse makes walking around on the wood!
    What a racket! The barn is a 3 story deal with the stalls on the
    bottom, a garage on the second level (yes, it's built into the side
    of a hill) and storage above. She allows her horse free access to the
    stable area aisle, and he clopps around in there constantly. The
    other thing I've asked her about is the effect of the urine on the
    wood in the stall. She uses a lot of shavings, but still anticipates
    having to redo the floor sooner than she'd originally expected to.
    
    My own stalls have clay floors, with hardpacked sand on top. At first
    this was a bit messy, the shavings mixed in with the sand easily, but
    the sand packed down hard quick enough and it seems to be working out
    pretty well now. One of my horses is MUCH messier than the other and
    no matter what I do or how much fresh shavings he gets he just drops
    manure all over the place and then walks through it and spreads it
    everywhere. I'm considering a rubber mat in his stall, if for no
    other reason than to save myself work/money having to use less
    shavings. Seems some horses are just plain slobs and their stalls
    never seem fresh and clean!
    

    Wood floors are nice but they rot quickly. When we moved onto our farm
    in NH, we re-built/converted an existing dairy barn into a horse barn.
    We put in wood floors because we thought we would like them better than
    concrete. We were *WRONG*. The wood floor was hard to sweep, etc. Even
    worse, if a dog or horse peed on the floor, it soaked in. The floor
    started weakening from rot in about 5-6 years. Occassionally, a horse
    would break through a board near their stall door from the moisture
    that collected there. I replaced such rotten boards for another 3-4
    years on an asneeded basis. Then one day, Jan who is pretty skinny went
    through the floor! (Fortunately, it was her and not a horse! I know
    that sounds like a typical MCP husbandly thing to say but she's a lot
    less likely to panic than a horse. She's a lot smarter too!) Anyway, we
    replaced the entire wooden floor with concrete and were happy ever
    after.
    
    The stalls in that barn were filled w/ 12 inches of sand topped with
    about 8-9 inches of clay. The clay was hard to keep clean. It absorbed
    urine and therefore stank. It was hard to keep even close to level
    not only because of wear and tear from the horses but also the little
    bits of clay that we would dig out when cleaning the wet spots. 
    
    I *WILL NOT* have clay stall floors or wooden aisle/grooming area
    floors in the new barn when we build it! We have discussed concrete for
    the aisles etc. and are even considering it for the stall floors.
    
    We actually have a small barn now which was here when we moved from NH.
    It has a concrete slab floor everywhere. We haven't got around to
    putting mats in the stalls yet but use about 6 inches of sawdust for
    bedding. We haven't had any serious problems caused by the floor. The
    only problem we've noticed is that the mares stocks up behind a little
    bit in hot weather. They walk it off in the short walk to the pasture.
    So, we are seriously thinking of concrete floors with mats to prevent
    stocking up, etc.
    
    I've seen that book of barn plans mentioned in a couple earlier
    replies. There didn't seem to be anything in the size we want to build
    so it would mean modifying one or combining two to suit our needs. In
    order to get a building permit, we'd have to get an architect or 
    structural engineer to make up new plans. Wouldn't that be all most as
    costly as having the architect/engineer start from scratch? Anybody got
    any experience with that kind of stuff? HELP!!!!!
    
    

    When we went for our building permit, they accepted drawings
    done by my husband from the book we got our barn design from.
    They were not bad, but they were not *professional* drawings.
    We modified the actual barn to fit our needs, i.e. made it
    much bigger, BTW.  Depends upon how lenient your town is.
    
    Re concrete floors for the stalls....we have a concrete aisleway,
    but I would not use concrete for the stall floors, because of the
    cold it conducts.  Even with rubber mats, the temp difference is
    >very different< between clay & concrete.    

    
    
    Last week's issue of Blood Horse had an ad for a new product that is
    starting to be used in a lot of the major breeding farms in Kentucky 
    for their breed sheds and stallion barns.  They are using bricks made
    from a high density rubber compound. These bricks are installed like a
    regular interlocking paving brick but have the added benefit of the
    rubber in that they provide the excellent footing and resiliency of
    traditional rubber mats. The bricks are installed over a bed of packed
    sand, crushed gravel, or clay and the spaces between the bricks are
    filled in with sand that allows urine and water to seep through.  
    
    I don't know what the cost is on this product, but I will try to look
    up the ad and post the info here if anyone is interested.  
    
    Pat

    Hey, I must have missed that! But I don't read the ads much so I'll go
    look for it too. Sounds great to me

    re: -.2
    
    I think this is the product I saw the add for....it's looks like an
    inch by inch grid that sand, clay or what ever is put in the spaces.
    I think it would be definatly better than clay alone or mats.
    
    re: stinky clay.....we alway use lime to get rid of the stinkies.

    re: .26
    
     I saw an ad for these too, and they seem great.  I was thinking of
    bricking the aisle in my barn with ordinary red bricks, but these would
    be much better.  I wonder if they're slippery when they're wet, though.
    Is there a number to call to get more info about these?  (Especially
    cost!)  

    Another variety of stall floor that I've liked is wood brick.  Yup,
    that's right...we had wood blocks, layed like bricks, with the grain
    end up, and a little sand inbetween.  Had the warm of wood; drainage, 
    almost, of clay; and never needed replacement.  Fairly inexpensive,
    can be obtained easily, and looked very nice.  This did require lime
    occasionally to "sweeten" up the place!

    re .-1.
    
    Wood brick, huh?  SOunds good, too.  Where did you get such a thing?
    I've never seen it.  I guess I could just "slice" pieces off of a
    4X6 with a chain saw, though.  %^)
    
    -e

    re 24.
    My husband and I drew up the design for our barn. we figured out
    exactly what sizes, lengths and numbers we needed for the posts,
    beams and such. A local lumber mill cut rough lumber in the numbers
    we needed. 
    We had drawn the frame in pictures from all four sides, top and 
    details of how the joints fit together. Then we brought this to a 
    structural engineer to check. He made very few changes, a little
    heavier beam here or there, this beam resting on that one instead of
    vice versa. The town approved it no problem. Just try to make the
    drawings look professional with a ruler on graph paper and have a
    drawing of your property with the house and barn on it with distances
    to property lines and each other. It takes a little time, but it's
    fun to do and saves $$$$'s!
         

    re .32 Thanks, that gives me some hope! Probably what I'll do is buy
    some plans, sketch out the changes we want, have the structural
    engineer make modifications and draw up plans to submit to the county.
    
    Yup, the county. Out here, large parts of the countryside aren't
    included in the town or city limits. Everybody who lives in what they 
    call in "un-incorporated" parts of the county has to get building
    permits from the county. And boy is that a *PAIN*! We've been waiting 7
    MONTHS to get a permit to put in a riding arena. (We need the permit to
    haul in gravel and sand for the arena base) So, when it comes time to
    build the barn, I think I'll try to avoid problems by having
    professionally drawn plans. Shouldn't cost too much more to have them
    re-drawn with the modifications.

    re .31, and wood bricks:
    
    You've got the correct answer, although, I'd try a table saw instead!
    The wood bricks were "made" either from 4x6 or 4x8 lumber.  (I know, 
    4x8 is not a real common dimension - perhaps the owners had it milled 
    that way for them.)                     

    
    
    I did some digging around and found the ad for the rubber paving
    bricks.  It was in the 1991 Blood Horse Directory under saftey
    surfaces.  
    
    Equine Safety Surfaces, Inc.
    P.O. Box 4409 
    Lexington, Kentucky 40544
    
    Tel. 606.278.4911
    
    
    They also list an Equine Saftey Surfaces West Region
    P.O. Box 4409
    Rancho Santa Fe, Calif.  92067
    
    Tel. 619.259.0999  Fax. 619.259.8641
    
    The ad says that these pavers are Non-skid, durable and require minimum
    maintenance.
    
    Pat 

    Thanks!  I'll give then a call and get the prices.  I'll also post them
    here, in case any one else is interested.
    
    -ellie

    Please do ellie!
    
    michele

Just happened to be reading through some past notes and bumped
into this "ideal barn" note.  Out of curiosity I called the place
selling the rubber paving bricks for price info.

Cost is $7.00/sq.ft.  Yikes, that's only about seven hundred bucks
for one (10x10) stall.  And that doesn't include freight. For example,
add an extra 50 cents per sq.ft. to ship to the Nashua, NH area.
(That sounds like an awful lot for shipping, but I didn't question it).

FYI, when I called, he asked for my name (spelling and everything)
and asked where I was from when I asked about delivery.  I didn't
ask much after the $7 part, but I did mention Digital and asked
if I could post his prices here.  I guess I should have said "Don't
you want me to post a better price?" ;^)  

--carrie

    I had contacted them about the rubber bricks too but didn't get any
    prices. They sent me a bunch of pretty brochures and the card for the
    West Coast sales manager... I just assumed that since they wouldn't put
    the prices in writing that they were OUT OF SIGHT!!!
    
    I had kind of eliminated them anyway after I saw what the installation
    requirements/procedures were. I think it was 12" of gravel with 4" of
    sand, all levelled and then set the rubber bricks like they were
    regular clay bricks being used for a walkway. Too much labor,
    especially if you are doing it yourself! And just think of the extra $
    the stuff would cost if you had somebody else install it and you had to
    pay labor charges on top of the $700 for a 10x10 stall!
    
    Right now I am investigating a couple other alternatives for the barn we
    are planning to build next year. The alternatives are:
    EquiStall grids w/ sand/crushed gravel, various types of stall mats
    over clay/dirt/gravel/concrete/wood, and finally plain old clay. When I 
    get done, I'll post it in this note or one of the related ones on stall 
    floors.
    
    
    John

    John, 
    
    Have you found out any more on the Equi stall grids?  I keep meaning to
    call for more information but haven't gotten around to it yet.  If they 
    are as durable as they claim, (and not cost prohibitive) they would be my
    first choice with mats over clay as the second.
    
    Michele

    I got an info package from the Equustall(sp?) grid folks. I don't
    remember the prices offhand but I don't recall being shocked by them
    either.
    
    If you can believe the brochure, these grids should be pretty durable.
    They can be installed over concrete in a refurbishing job. For new
    construction or major rehab, they recommend installing them over
    crushed gravel. The stall floor must be level before laying the grids.
    The grids are laid and interlocked. They are trimmed with an ordinary saw
    if I remember right. After the grids are installed, they must be filled 
    with sand or stone dust. The sand/stone dust is then saturated with
    water from a hose. After it drains, bed the stall as usual.
    
    The advantages of this stall floor are: 
         1) it provides good drainage
         2) prevents the horse from pawing/wearing holes as they do in
            stalls with dirt/clay/gravel floors.
    
    The disadvantages are:
         1) the grids provide no cushioning effect for the legs of a stalled 
            horse
         2) the grids require regular maintenance to refill them with sand
            or stone dust which gets lost when it mixes in with bedding
    
    I am not inclined to use these grids as I feel the disadvantages
    outweigh the advantages. Refilling the grids is less work than restoring 
    a stall floor pawed/worn by a horse but it's still grunt labor with 
    material delivered by a dump truck! Sand/gravel (etc) weighs about 
    1.5 TONS(3,000 pounds or 1350 kilos) per cubic yard/meter. You can't get 
    much of it in your pickup truck or station wagon. ;-)
    
    When we had clay floors, normal wear and tear for used up 6 to 10 cubic
    yards of material per year with no mats or grids. That was for 3 to 5
    stalls. If the grids cut that amount down to 1 or 2 cu. yards per year
    for the same number of stalls, it looks great at first.
    
    But... Most gravel/sand outfits will deliver material but they charge a lot 
    for delivering small amounts. In fact, some of them charge by the TRIP so 
    you pay the same for 1 yard as for 6 yards! One company we used in NH
    delivered small amounts and billed delivery charges on a per yard
    basis. But, they charged 4 times as much for delivery as for the material!
    
    Maybe for amounts that small, you could go to the pit in a 3/4 ton
    pickup and get half a yard a couple times a year.

    Filling the grids with sand sounds like a pain we can do without!   I 
    though they could be filled with clay and would last a long time
    without the effects of pawing.  Guess it's the old clay and mat
    routine....... ;^)
    

We are also planning a new barn and a while back, I promised Michele I'd post 
whatever I found out about stall floors when I got done checking around.
We've considered just about everything possible as floor stalls. Things we've 
considered include Clay, Wood, EQUUSTALL, Concrete, Dirt, Pit Run Gravel, 
Crushed Gravel, Wood set in Sand or Crushed Gravel, etc.

We've had 1) Clay, 2) Wood and 3) Concrete at the places we've lived and Dirt 
or Pit Run Gravel the couple times we've boarded out. The only one of those
floors I'd have again is the Concrete w/mats on top. 

Clay provides poor drainage and holds smells something wicked. With mats over 
clay, my guess is you'd get a wicked smelly mess underneath the mats.

Wood rots fairly quickly when attacked by urine. Even if you use treated wood 
which may last somewhat longer when exposed to urine, the horses steel-shod 
hooves tear it up. You also hit the nails and the cracks between boards with 
your fork/shovel when you're cleaning stalls. Wood is also fairly slippery for 
a horse because horses' feet get a lot of their traction by digging into the 
surface they're walking on. So, you end up putting mats over it and you loose 
any advantage in warmth or waterever reason you chose wood in the first place.

Dirt or Pit Run Gravel isn't good without mats or EQUUSTALL grids because
you end up replacing lots of material on a regular basis. The Pit Run Gravel
probably wouldn't be great under mats because it doesn't tamp/pack well 
because the stones are round. On our driveway, we gave up filling holes with 
Pit Run Gravel(which we get for FREE) because the stuff would work out of the 
holes very quickly. A friend who is a civil engineer told me to fill the holes
with crushed gravel and put 2" more crushed gravel on top and I'd have no more 
trouble. We did that and now have a good surface.

We thought about Pit Run Gravel, tamped as best it would with EQUUSTALL grids 
and sand on top of the gravel because it would be well drained and require 
less upkeep than w/o the EQUUSTALL grids. We decided against this because of 
the cost and because it would still require regular filling the grids w/ sand.
The cost was a lot higher for the EQUUSTALL grids than I thought. Something
like $370 + shipping for a 10'x12' stall and $425+ for a 12'x12' stall. That's 
nearly twice as much as mats and the mats provide better cushioning for the 
horse. Plus there's more labor in tamping pit run, adding & tamping a layer 
of sand, installing the grids and finally filling them w/sand. So that's 
more you have to pay for labor if you're hiring it built or more you have to 
do yourself if you're finishing the stalls. 

A lot of the mat manufacturers I talked to when looking for mats said that 
they thought concrete floors were the best things to put in a horse barn IF 
you put mats over them. However, the recommend crushed gravel w/ mats because 
it's so much cheaper and works very well.

Jan and I debated back and forth between Concrete or Crushed Gravel to combine 
with mats in the new barn. We finally decided on compacted Crushed Gravel 
because each of our horses has a wet spot right over one or more seams in the
mats. We figure that anything that gets through the seam would just pool under 
the mats in a Concrete stall. The Crushed Gravel will allow it to drain into 
the ground and compacting it will make a firm level surface for the mats. If 
you don't tamp or compact the crushed gravel, the weight of the horse walking 
around on it WILL compact it where it walks/stands/lies down . That would 
make hollows in those areas and wear out your mats faster. You'd have to 
fill the hollows to prevent premature mat replacement or when you replaced the 
mats. I wanna do it and forget it for the 10 yr life of the mats and then just 
put down new mats!

Now the mat manufacturers will tell you that urine seepage is no problem 
because fine particles of bedding will very quickly work into the cracks and
form a nice seal like caulking. Right ;-) Wanna buy the Brooklyn Bridge? ;-)
They may be right that bedding will work into the cracks but bedding is porous 
and absorbent(that's one reason we use it). So, at best bedding in the cracks 
would slow down the seepage. You'd still get some seepage so we opted for the 
drainage that even the compacted gravel will allow.

Hope that helps
John

    re .43
    
    I had very good luck with using stone dust under stall mats.  I found
    that it does not move around as much as gravel, and it drains well.  As
    you mention, this is a drawback with mats over concrete.  I first
    leveled the stone dust and wet it and tamped it.  When I sold this
    farm, the stalls with the mats over stone dust were still fine.
    
    -ellie

    Thanks, I wasn't very specific was I? I meant 1/4"minus crushed gravel
    which is also called stone dust as all the particles are 1/4" and
    smaller down to dust specks.
    
    One local contractor who specializes in horse barns and arenas told me
    that he uses 5/8"minus in the stalls of barns he builds. We used the
    5/8"minus for a walk between our house and garage so I have some first
    hand experience with that size and I feel the stones in it are too big
    to make a good stall floor.
    
    Thanks for taking the trouble to read all that and clarify it for me.
    I also appreciate you telling about your experience w/ stalls like the
    ones we're planning. Reduces our anxiety level a bit. :-)

I can't say that a wood floor is all that bad.  We avoided having nails 
in each board by butting each board together.  We then used shims to 
make the boards tight.  We then put a trim along the top on all 4 sides.
The trim simply prevents the boards from accidently popping up.  We
have had this for a year with no problems.  This is the stall that we
consider whenever we have someone we need to keep in and not have to
worry about.

The wood can be a bit slippery when they are coming out, if you are not
careful.  But, we have only had a problem maybe once or twice - and
this was caused by the horse (specifically the yearling) wanting to
get out faster than I wanted her to get out.  I held her back, and she
slipped slightly.

I happen to be partial to wood because it is easy to replace and repair.

Ed..

Just thought I'd update you on our continuing barn building saga. 

The county out here is VERY strict. In order to get a permit, you have to
have your plans approved/stamped by an engineer who is licensed in
this state. It doesn't matter where you got your plans U.S. government,
the state university's extension service(!), an architect/structural 
engineer licensed other states or Joe at the corner tavern. The plans 
for a pole barn HAVE to be reviewed and stamped by a WA engineer.(Sometimes, 
I miss the old "Live Free or Die" approach to life!)

Curiously enough, you don't have to have HOUSE PLANS stamped! You can draw
them yourself or buy 'em anywhere and they don't care. The difference is 
that the Universal Building Code doesn't apply to pole buildings. So, the
mindless bureaucrats and clerks that review the permit applications have no 
little cookbook that they can use to say yes or no. Heaven forbid that they 
should have anybody on their staff who was actually qualified to review 
these permits! 

I looked at the plans in the barn building book mentioned earlier as well 
as the stuff that the local extension service had. Didn't find anything that 
was really what we wanted. Considered buying plans from a service in NH for 
a couple hundred bucks. But, they were designed like houses and local 
contractors told me I couldn't afford to build from those plans! Talked to a 
local structural engineering firm estimated that it would cost $1200-$1500 
to have them make up and stamp sets of plans suitable for submission to the 
county. I thought that was kinda high considering they said they had over 
400 different pole barns already in their computer and would just modify 
one of them to suit us!

So, at the suggestion of a local civil engineer, we drew up a sketch of what 
we wanted and got contractors to bid the job on a "design & build" basis.
The contractor's design had to be reviewed and approved by the engineer. The 
engineer's review cost us a couple hundred. That was pretty cheap. 

Besides that, the county made us put in a 100' long sloped swale big enough 
to hold all the rainwater from the barn roof in a 30 Year rainstorm. The 
swale has to have a concrete lip to make sure that the overflow from the ditch
(once every 30 years or so!) would be a sheet flow rather than a point 
discharge. Wouldn't want to cause any erosion around the nearby grass!

Anyway, we now have a permit to build a 5 stall(12'x12') barn with a 12' 
aisle, heated tack room(12x24), a wash stall and a 12x24 area that we'll use 
for indoor dog runs. We're gonna do some of the finishing work to save $ and 
construction starts in June. We expect to have it complete sometime in August.
Since the new barn is right next to the arena, we're having the contractor 
install light poles along one side of the arena. So, we can ride next winter!

John

John,

Congrats on getting thru the brutal permit process.  It sounds like
it will be a really nice barn.  Let me know what you decide for lights.
I settled on some that are like riding by candle-light, plus my electric
bill doubles during the months I need them.  

Melinda

    I live in a non zoned area in Colorado. It is part of a rual
    development. We have one covent cop. The only rules:
    
    	No barb wire
    	The roof has to the same as your house
    	The siding should be simular to your house.
    	no building permits 
    	no fees 
    
    	No boarding horses for a fee.
    
    I can live with that.
    
    Carl

    Carl-
    
    No boarding horses for a fee? 
    
    What if someone was going into the boarding business?  Does
    that require a different type of permit?

�               <<< Note 1486.50 by DELNI::MANDILE "with an e" >>>

�    What if someone was going into the boarding business?  Does
�    that require a different type of permit?

Well, I don't know exactly where Carl lives in Colo Spgs, I can only 
guess...

If this is a residential area and the no boarding is in the convenants, you
would have to appeal to the homeowners in the subdivision that you live in.
Most of the residential neighborhoods with covenants have restrictions
similar to this just to keep the neighborhood from getting too much
traffic. 

The subdivision that I live in has convenants with restrictions on type of 
animal (horses okay, but forget the pigs :), number (2 I think, although 2 
plus a foal is allowed), total square footage for barn and corral/pasture. 
Barn has to be approved by the architectural committee.  No wire fencing.  
Basically, the creators of the covenants didn't want the subdivision 
looking too trashy with large, all dirt pastures and tons of horses and 
traffic.

Around here, a primary recommendation that *I* have is checkout covenants 
of a subdivision *prior* to purchasing land or house.  There is one large 
community which allows no fences and no satellite dishes :)

    
    Ah, subdivisions w/ covenants.....
    
    We have been tossing the idea around about moving, and one
    of the subdivisions we lokked at had a 2 horse limit, too.  
    I told my husband that it would be a cold day in he** when I would
    live someplace where *they* tell me what I can and cannot do,
    including what color I can paint my home!  Too bad, because
    it was a perfect set-up for a nice barn and house....(backed up
    to umpteen acres of non-developable wetlands, too!)

�               <<< Note 1486.52 by DELNI::MANDILE "with an e" >>>
�               -< Lime green barn with a hot pink house! (8 (; >-
    
�    We have been tossing the idea around about moving, and one
�    of the subdivisions we lokked at had a 2 horse limit, too.  
�    I told my husband that it would be a cold day in he** when I would
�    live someplace where *they* tell me what I can and cannot do,
�    including what color I can paint my home!  Too bad, because

I guess it's a trade off :)

I basically agree with you, it's a major pain when someone else dictates 
this type of stuff.  The place with the no fences and no dishes is close to 
autocratic... before you build, the architectural committee *and* your 
future neighbords all have to approve your house (at least the outside, 
coverings, color, etc).  In addition, depending on the natural vegetation 
on your lot, they have *minimum* landscaping requirements and require that 
you put $$ in escrow prior to building so that if you don't landscape they 
can use the escrow money to do it for you.  The lots are 1/2 to 3/4 acre, 
no horses, and pretty expensive...  (however, you couldn't pay me to move 
there :)

However, many of the subdivisions without covenants end up looking pretty 
trashy... rundown mobile homes (rather than houses), 3 or 4 dead cars in 
the front yard, that type of thing.

We tried to find a place with convenants that we can live with (I didn't
have a problem with the 2 horse limit... I didn't want to sign up for more
than I could handle :).  And, they did have nice things like asking all
dogs (well, their owners anyway) not to run loose and be under control, and
restricting things like mobile homes and beat up old cars. 

So far, our subdivision seems to be pretty flexible... there are some 
fences that aren't really allowed but no one has said anything.  Residents 
*have* complained about the loose dogs though.  :)

One of the other things that we did before we bought was not only check the 
convenants but also drove through the subdivision to see if it looks like 
they are being strictly enforced.  If you don't follow the covenants it 
can put the subdivision in a sticky place.  They may be forced to take 
legal action (just to prove that coventants are being enforced) of which
the outcome isn't always predictable.  If you can prove precidence that
covenants aren't enforced then the subdivision may just loose out.  Or, you
may loose but force the issue with who's gonna pay to rectify things?  And,
if no one else in the subdivision complains about your violation, you're
probably safe :) 

I've seen this from a few sides.  I lived in a subdivision where someone
put up a single level ranch style home (definitely against covenants for
both style and color).  The other homeowners briefly pursued the legal
avenue and gave it up when it appeared that even if the subdivision won, we
probably wouldn't be able to make this guy rip his house down... (although 
we had a number of other homeowners that were very interested in ripping it 
down :)

On the other hand, the place with the nasty covenants is still pursuing 
legal action against the guy that put up a satellite dish despite the 
convenants.

    I live around 20 miles east of Colorado Springs. The "development"
    has mostly  5 or 2.5 acre plots. The covenents are not bad. Alot
    of areas in the Springs you can not have out door antennas.
    Like I said we have to use smooth wire. They don't want commercial
    business. Very low traffic. very Quiet except for the sound of my
    neighbor's colt naaaaaaing at my mare, or the meadowlarks, and the
    ground squirrels chirping.
    	My neighbor buy and sells horses all the time. He keeps it
    low key, nobody cares.
    
    PS We had a beautiful sunny day in the ?high 50's today,had a 
    real nice ride.
    
    
    Carl

    A while back, I mentioned that we had finally got the building permit to 
    put up a new barn. Well, they broke ground last wee and have made good
    progress so far. The poles are up the plumbing drains are installed,
    the concrete floor(aisles and tack room) are poured, the crushed rock
    is installed and packed in the stalls(Don't worry. We're gonna put mats 
    on top! ;-) and they are starting to frame the side walls. (Can you
    tell, I'm psyched?)
    
    While that's good news, it not the main reason for this note. Melinda
    asked what we were going to use for arena lights. Since we just made
    the final decision yesterday, I thought I'd tell you.
    
    I started out thinking I would use 300 W halogen floodlights like you
    can buy in hardware stores. Most people use them for driveways, yards, 
    pools etc. We put up a couple of them on our current barn to light up
    the attached paddock so we could turn out in the winter. (winter days
    here a VERY short. Sunrise is near 8 AM and it's dark again by 5
    PM..Although I'll bet that much daylight sounds good to those farther
    north like England and Canada! )
    
    I thought we could get away with 4 of those lights installed at 16'
    high on poles. Of course a 20' pole would be needed by the time you
    bury it.
    
    The contractor thought that was a poor choice because the bulbs burn
    out fairly frequently. That got my attention. I don't want to be changing 
    light bulbs that are 16' in the air too often. So, we looked for more 
    efficient lights with a longer life expectancy on the bulbs. 
    
    At first, he suggested sodium based lights like street lights. I don't
    like the yellow color of the sodium lights so he suggested mercury vapor
    street lights. I didn't like the street light type of fixture because
    they through a good part of their light right under the fixture and
    behind it. I didn't want light poles in the middle of the arena! ;-)
    
    Yesterday, we went thgough his catalog and found a suitable style
    light. It's a 400 Watt "metal hallide" (whatever that is) flood light. 
    First, the good news. 
    
    Unlike street lights and those mercury vapor globe lights that people
    hang off the end of barns/garages to light up the yard, these lights
    can be aimed left/right and up/down. That's important in getting the
    light to where we need it.
    
    They are more than twice as efficient in producing light! They give 3 
    times as much light as the 300 Watt halogens I originally considered 
    for only a 1/3 increase in energy use. That's 2.25 times more light 
    per watt! 
    
    That means we'll get good light for riding for only 1.6 kilowatts per
    hour of use. Since electricity out here is about 5� per KW, these
    lights will cost about 8� an hour to run!
    
    Plus, they have an average bulb life of 20,000 hours of use! If we use 
    them 3 hours a day every day of the year(we won't), that would be a
    little over 1,000 hours per year. It will be a long time before we have
    to change the bulbs. Which is good because here's the bad news!
    
    The first bit of bad news is the price. They're $200 per light! The
    halogens are cheap. You can buy them for about $15 in local hardware
    stores.
    
    A minor disadvantage of these over the halogen lights are that they
    take a few minutes to warm up. The halogen lights are really a
    variation on regualr incandescant light bulbs so they come on instantly.
    However, all the efficient lights have a similar warm up period before
    they give their full light. Solution? Turn the lights on while you're
    saddling.
    
    On top of that, we had to use taller poles to get good coverage of the 
    arena. This would be true of ALL lights because because the area they
    cover is related to how high they are mounted and the downward angle of
    their aim. 
    
    For sports lighting, the recommendation is that the poles be placed
    at no more than 2 times the pole-height from the end of the
    arena with 4x the pole height between poles. 
    
    So, for a large dressage arena(66' x 198' but we used 70 x 200 for easy 
    arithmetic), that means we had to mount the lights at 25' and place 2 
    poles at 50' from each end. This means 2 lights per pole with the lights 
    aimed in different directions to cover the whole arena. Kinda like this:
    
    
    __________________________________________
    |                                         |
    |                                         |
    |                                         |
    |                                         | <- arena
    |                                         |
    |                                         |
    __________________________________________
           \     /              \     /
            \   /                \   /
             \ /  light 1's aim-> \ / <- light 2's aim
              |                    |
              |                    |  <- pole
              |                    |
              |                    |

    We have these lights on our house, as you say they do take quite a
    while to warm up.  3-5 minutes I guess, the longest in the winter. 
    Once you get used to turning them on in advance it's not a problem. 
    Also, if you hit the switch and then change your mind, you have to wait 
    again (could happen while your riding and there's a power blip).  During
    the wait there is a very faint light, but not really enough to see
    anything.  If it were me I would want a simple backup light either to
    switch on separately or a simple bulb that would come on with the
    others and give some kind of immediate light, just for emergencies.
    
    Sharon
    
    Sharon
    

    Am I missing something? Or making false assumptions?
    
    If it takes 3-5 minutes for the lights to warm up completely, wouldn't it 
    take a minute or two for them to cool down completely? So, if I turn
    them off and right back on a few seconds later(or there's a brief power 
    glitch), wouldn't they be pretty bright? Maybe not full brightness but 
    good enough to see?
    
    If there's a genuine power failure(not just a flicker), I don't see how
    any type of light that uses AC current would help. (Where's Jan with
    the flashlight to get me back to the barn?)
    
    As for emergencies, the only thing I can think of where I'd want my
    entire arena lit up "right now" is a loose horse. I doubt that a loose 
    horse would hang around in the open outdoor bark arena instead
    of heading for the grass or someplace else the lights don't shine
    anyway. So, that one doesn't seem too significant.
    
    Are there others that I've overlooked?
    Thanks for your help(especially if I AM missing something!)
    

    Take my word for it, if the lights have been on for hours and they lose
    power even for a second you will be in the dark for a while. When they
    decide to come back on they 'suddenly' flick back on, but not for a
    bit.
    
    It may not be a problem for you, it's not a problem for us, just
    sometimes an annoyance. 
    
    Just thought you would want to know,
    Sharon

    
    What is considered the ideal base/footing for an indoor riding
    arena in MA?
    
    

    Re: .59
    
    The USDF just published a booklet called "Under Foot" which discusses
    footing for riding arenas.  I'm pretty sure they talked about what is
    good outdoors and indoors and also went into proper construction. 
    Although writing the booklet began as a project to get better footing
    in dressage arenas, the advice would probably be useful for any kind of
    riding.  If you're not a USDF member, maybe you can find someone who is
    to lend you the booklet.  I think it was sent to at least all
    Participating Members and may have been sent to Associate Members, too.
    
    						Jan