Conference noted::equitation

    I own a Quarter Horse mare.  I have not been able to ride her
    for about 6month's.  She is 15.3 hands and wiegh's in about 1500 pds.  
    Needless to say she is a moose.
    
    My problem:
    
    	I can see the whites of her eyes.. She is handful when I ride
    her every day so I don't even know how to approach her.  Should I lung
    her to death in a ring and then ride her.. (she hates the ring, I
    competive trail ride).
    
    	Last year when I gave her month off my body paid the price.
    
    I know that I have asked my father to cut down on her grain a bit so
    that will help.  
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    db

    
    
    I have the same problem with my mare when I don't get to ride her very
    often.  I make it a point to lunge her to death every time before I
    ride. I don't always work her with a lunge lunge line as there is a
    round pen where I board and I free lunge her in there for a change of
    pace.  It can sometimes take me an hour or more to get her civilized to
    the point that getting on her is not suicide.  I would lunge your mare 
    every night for at least a week and possibly two sessions on each of the
    weekend days. I would make her do it regardless of whether she wants to
    or not.  You are the boss, not her. Get the lunge whip out and really
    push her to burn off that excess energy.  You could also use the
    lunging sessions to reinforce some discipline.  
    
    Good luck with your handful.  
    
    Pat 

    The comment that you can "see the whites of her eyes" puzzles...do
    you mean that quite literally?? That would make it seem that possibly
    she is afraid of something?? Is riding an upsetting event for her?
    Seeing as she has gained a lot of weight recently, could her tack
    need adjustments...perhaps something is rubbing and making her
    uncomfortable? Is she turned out? Obviously she is some need of
    feed adjustment, perhaps if it is just excessive energy that will
    help, but it sounds like she is nervous about something. Has she
    been vetted lately?? Her teeth need floating?? If it has been awhile,
    perhaps you could consider having a vet check her for possible physical
    worries that would cause discomfort under saddle....if she vets
    fine , seeing as you have not ridden in awhile perhaps you could
    have a knowledgable friend watch you ride to be sure you have not
    unwittingly picked up some bad habits (we all do!) that could be
    upsetting her...just a few ideas...Good luck!
    

       If this is a young mare maybe she just needs time. Do you spend an
    hour or so just brushing her and talking to her, or do you get her
    brush her quickly then jump on and go? If she has not been ridden in 
    six months I would lunge her twice a day for about at least a week
    before I would even get on her. Maybe for about 20mins at first then
    work up longer depending on how she feels. You dont want to take her
    from standing still to over an hours work in a tight circle! You could
    end up with some muscle problems down the road. Also does she get 
    a chance to get out every day? I would be more concerned about spending
    more time with her than cutting back her feed. Maybe take her for 
    long walks in hand, brush her in her stall with the radio on, sing to
    her, ect... so she will trust you and will not be AFRAID of you.
    
    sorry to be so winded but I hope this helps a little.

    My 6 yr old QH gelding is also full of excess energy, and he
    is turned out every day.  I haven't ridden since late Nov, and
    its time to get him ready for it.  I have cut down on the
    feed, and have started the lunging to get him to relax and to
    start conditioning him.  He's lonely as he's by himself, so
    I try to get him together with the horse next door so as he gets
    horse & human company.  He also runs around with the other horse,
    which is good for him, too.  When he's by himself, he just eats
    and stands.  Lunging everyday, then lunging with saddle, then
    back to riding should get us back on the trails.  His need of
    company causes most of his bratty-ness.  He settles down once we
    start going out with the other horse.
    
    L-

    
    Thanks for all the input...
    
    To answers some of the questions I have owned ginger 7 years and every
    spring we have the same games we have every spring .. Who is really 
    the boss...
    
    Ginger is 13 years old (no spring chicken), lives on farm and is turn
    out all day and has a pony as a pal.
    
    One person asked about my comment "you can see the white of her eyes" 
    That is an old term that when you feed a horse too much grain you can
    see a white rim around there eyes.  That there pumped up.  Some horses
    have this naturally like Paints.
    
    Well on Monday I lunged her for about 20minutes and then took her and
    brushed her down and then put her saddle on.  (She is at her best on
    the cross ties Like a little old lady.. You'd never know she had
    anything on her mind)...
    
    As soon as I got on her she walked off like a little lady.  She had 
    some ruff spots but in general she was great.
    
    After riding I put her out with the pony and the took off for around
    10 minutes bucking and rearing and running up a storm..
    
    Thanks
    db/Ginger

    
    Ray is 18 years old, and is the same way - he always looks at me
    and shows the whites of his eyes. And I don't ride in the winter
    at all, and he gets wild - He's turned out with his "herd of mare",
    so he runs her around all the time, and gets plenty of exercise.
    
    The spring is scarey - he's feeling good, hasn't had to behave
    for anyone for a long time, and I'm certainly not as strong or
    comfortable in the saddle, not having been there for a few months.
    But after a few weeks of regular riding, Ray simmers down. 
    
    However, those first few weeks I've had to do a couple of things
    to make him behave better. First, I have a running martingale, and
    a relatively harsh bit - a copper 'screw' type full-cheek snaffle.
    The 'screw' ridge is actually rounded, not sharp, but it gets his
    attention; and the copper keeps his mouth wet and sensitive - in
    fact, he likes to play with it; the martingale prevents him from
    stretching his neck way out, so he's unable to pull the bit away
    from me, grab it and take off with it (and, of course, me).
    
    Second, I *NEVER* give him loose rein; if he can get his nose down
    below his knees, he's bucking! And third, I don't ride him terribly
    hard those first few weeks, but I ride him for long (a couple of
    hours at a time) periods, to tire him out.
    
    And I don't lunge him, since I don't really have the room to do it.
    
    He used to be a bucking fool and a runaway, bit seems every year gets
    a little easier - see, he's a little fatter and a little older - and
    so am I!
    
    Good luck! I know the feeling of "Oh, *BOY*!! Spring is here, and I	
    can ride again!! Oh, no, will I live through it?"
    
    -julie

    I would say his problem is domination.
    
    I have had my old horse now for 23 years and it is exactly the same
    thing - he (and yours) just wants to see whose boss.
    
    However *For Your Safety*, you can't physically dominate that horse
    (well most people can't safely), so you are going to have to do it 
    pyschologically - and for your safety and his, you need to be in a 
    sturdy riding ring - not in an open pasture.
    
   I made the open pasture mistake once, and I won't do it again.
    
    Tina

    My horse does the same thing whenever there is a change in the weather
    or a change in his surroundings. He is eleven and I thought he would
    calm down by now. My advise is to lunge and ride through the situation.
    
    

	My horse did the same thing when I moved him to a barn which had
   several large fields to ride in.  Lunging helps, but riding through the
   antics is critical and will pay off when you go to different places.

   Try to stay in a small area of the field getting your horse's attention,
   as he adjusts gradually increase the area you can ride/work in.  Initially
   a standing martingale may help limit your horse's antics...  remember to
   keep riding him forward (it's hard to buck when the horse is made to carry
   himself on his hindquarters).

	Good luck!
				-Caroline

    Has there been a large change in his turn-out time? My ten year old
    mare becomes a maniac if she is kept in, and she is fed a very low
    grain diet. A 30ft X 50ft paddock attached to her stall with 24 hour
    a day access, turned her into a cupcake. I do not have a ring so not
    riding in fields is not an option. Now she is nice whether she is
    ridden every day or just once a month. Of course they all get a little
    lively in the fall and spring, but that is no excuse to dump you off!
    Sandy
    

    re: 4 
    
    Yes his turnout time increased by hours, they turned him out by 8 a.m.
    and brought into 10 x 12 stall at 3:30 to be fed and bedded for the
    evening.  His present living quarters is a 12 x 12 stall open to his 3
    acres 24 hours a day.  His companions are now 2 kittens instead of 30
    horses.  I think I should learn to get mad at this horse.  I watched as
    my husband was going to mount him (after my second dumping) and he
    started to take off, I watched as he slapped my horse with the reins
    and yelled at him at the same time.  I by nature do not react in
    violence against an animal.  However, "Easy" seemed to pay attention to
    him, however I did not let him mount him as by this time the reins
    broke.

    Did you check your saddle pad for burrs or whatever? your girth?
    Seems pretty unusual that he should change so drastically without
    a good reason.

    Jesse was a wild woman at the western equitation (perfect timing, eh?)
    last weekend.  She tried to buck me off once, but she is good for a 
    happy buck once in a while, and I know she is feeling good now.
    
    It could be the change of season, however, I would suspect (as someone
    else pointed out) maybe a sore or a pinch....something that might be
    hurting him/her.
    
    Michele

	Re: .5

	You also mentioned that he is now pretty much by himself where he used
	to be constantly around other horses... This could also affect his
	somewhat obnoxious (am I putting it mildly ;^)) behaviour. If not 
	having other horses around is fairly new to him, this, combined with
	the fact that fall is arriving, could make him a bit of a silly
	creature.

	He might just plain be "afraid"
	in his new surroundings (especially new ones without any of his
	companions there to placate him...)

	Good luck; we'll be looking forward to reading that he's behaving
	himself again!

    I tend to agree with .8, perhaps he's just upset about finding himself
    without his fellow herd members. When I first moved my mare home
    she was awful lonely at first, and did all sorts of silly things,
    including more frequent bucking, jumping the fences , and chasing
    the German Shepard around, and throwing her feed buckets about the
    paddock. She has since become friends with my cats and that seems
    to help, plus I ride with a neighbor on a regular basis so she does
    see another horse at times. She also went from stall life to full
    time turnout, which bring her energy level down. She does buck still
    when I first let her canter down the nearby dirt road, but it's
    just good spirits and I just sit it out. If your horse seems to
    be attempting to dump you off purposefully, I'd say he needs some
    good strict disipline, though. Perhaps you could arrange to ride
    in company at times, or get him a companion to help him adjust to
    being lonely??
    
    

    Thank you for all your suggestions.  I mentioned this incident and your
    replies to my daughters instructor last night.  She too agreed to the
    fact the when a horse has 30 companions and then none, they tend to act
    goofy.  She then cited 4 different stories all relating to horse in
    large barn and then removed to different home with no friends.  I am
    seriously looking for one of those free horses to a good home, hoping
    it can do small jumps as my daughter (13) would be riding that
    particular beastie.  My other alternative is a radio? Not as exciting I
    must admit.  I wouldn't mind muckin' if he'd just stop buckin'... sorry
    it slipped through my fingers...

    I must admit I have sort of enjoyed this topic -- I thought I was the
    only one with a descendant of the Wild West. My advice is: don't let
    that horse determine where you do and don't ride. That will rapidly
    take the fun out of it for you. I saw good advice in there
    somewhere...ride through it. And they cannot buck when being required
    to move forward, not well, anyway. Good luck.

    Just to put this other theory to rest, ride through it and get him to
    trot.....well, we were at the low end of the pasture and I rode him,
    not less than 150 yards up a slight incline then across the pasture and
    directly to the trees and small shrubs so that when directly faced
    with an obstacle he would discontinue his shannanigans.  HAHAHAHA,
    trotting and bucking is not fun, and facing the trees became more of
    the hump in the back BIG buck which finally got me off.  I am now in
    the process of 1. getting a friend for him, this week as he is fretting
    alot, running back and forth looking for a friend.  2.  Separating a
    riding ring from his pasture.  3. Lunging him with his saddle on from
    now on, till I am a bit more sure of the no antics stuff.
    Thanks for all of your suggestions.
    Ester

    Well, what a difference.  We brought home Max on Friday, (8 yr. old
    standardbred) and Easy became docile.  He is unbelievably calm.  In
    fact, we put Easy in his stall on Sunday so that my daughter could ride
    her new horse and everytime they would go behind the stalls, Easy
    started running in circles and kicking the walls, one time I thought he
    was going to try and jump the half door to his stall.  Then I told them
    to come back and be where he could see them and then he was fine.  I
    guess having a companion was the answer.

    Ok .. somebody FESS up!!!!
    
    who was the person that said that a horse cant buck at a trot!!????
    
    I was riding a 16.3 horse that is in habit of getting riders off.
    I have been thrown 3 times in 20 years.. the third time being
    yesterday :^{
    anyway I rembered what was said about a trotting horse not being
    able to buck, so i brought him from a canter down to a trot, 2 minutes
    later I was chasing a horse in the pasture.. He never got his head down
    just lowered it, i guess i should have had more rein on him..and away
    he went... (just thought you'd like to know)
    :^}
    
    		wendy o'
    

    I'm not sure if there is a related note, if so,
    please direct me to it.
    
    Two months ago I purchased a 15yr appy mare (after
    ten years of being out of horses).  Up until
    this weekend she was great (occassionally
    fly bucking but that's it).  This weekend I took
    her out with my friend as we always do but this
    time instead of fly bucking when cantering she
    took off into the field and started bronco
    bucking.  This is one vice I do not like.  I
    didn't know what to do, I just hung onto the
    horn.  
    
    The stable owner suggested I cut out her sweet
    feed (pacer) and just feed pellets (strider).
    Make up the difference with hay.  I also suggested
    lunging her before riding.  But it seems she's never 
    lunged before (or she just doesn't remember) 
    the stable owner is worried that I will get my arms 
    wretched out of the sockets.  She feels I should 
    just ride it out.  Riding it out isn't my first 
    choice but...  
    
    Winnie (my mare) is very sweet but she
    has an abundance of energy.  Unfortunately, I
    work all week and the stable I board at doesn't
    have a lighted ring so I've been cut to riding
    on weekends only (I do alot of trail riding
    rather than ring work).
    
    Does anyone experience this problem?  What do
    you/would you do?
    
    Thank you, any advise is appreciated - I'm
    afraid to canter her again!
    
    Donna                 

    WHAT were you doing before that all started and does she give you any
    signs befroe she does this?? like toss her head? what gait were you in?
    were they other horses around??
    
    		wendy o'
    
    

    
    	Another question - are you sure that your saddle fits her
    	properly? Assuming you are riding her western...Did you pull
    	the blanket up a little bit before tightening the cinch so
    	that it is not taut across her back under the saddle? Is she
    	used to being ridden with your (type of) saddle? Don't forget
    	to consider physical as well as temperament.
    
    	Sherry
     

    I have been through this with my appy gelding...and actually broke a
    body part because of it.
    
    Here's what we did:  lunged before riding and when cantering keep his
    head up.  I also switched to a chain under the chin and not a leather
    strap.  I didn't cut out his sweet feed until this past summer, the
    results were so good I wish I had cut it out before.  We only feed
    Peformance choice pellets and hay.  He's been great since cutting out
    the sweet and I haven't had to lunge before riding.  
    
    I do think the above coupled with discipline made a big difference. 
    I'm not saying he's become a quiet horse, but he is now fun to ride.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Caryl
    
    P.S. Wendy O's been a great help to me also.

    my sister-in-law and i board together and always ride
    together.  we had a nice system were stephanie went 
    first with pierre and i stayed behind with winnie.
    she was happy with that until recently.
    
    winnie started off in a snit saturday even before i took
    her out.  she was an absolute pill on the cross-ties.
    we have to do about 3 miles in road work to get to the
    trails where we ride.  every thing seemed to bother
    her that day.  when we first got there we just walked
    and trotted.  the first time we cantered we were on
    a nice dirt road with pierre in front and winnie behind.
    pierre was being a plug (just trotting) and winnie 
    wanted to go so i brought her a long side of pierre.  that
    was all winnie needed she shot out into the field and
    started bronco bucking, (if i didn't know better i would
    have thought that i was in a rodeo instead of on a pleasant
    trail ride).  other than letting out a big snort there was
    no other indication for what came next.  well i got angry 
    and slapped her (with the reins) a number of times.  
    i wasn't sure where this behavior was coming
    from and i figured i'd try again so she wouldn't think
    she got the best of me.  we tried again with me keeping
    winnie behind.  didn't work, she shot out into the
    field again and put on her act.  i got angry again and
    slapped her.  she knew i was angry because it made her
    angry too.
    
    the first thing that crossed my mind was that she
    obviously had alot of unspent energy.  presently she
    is being ridden weekends only (weather permitting) and
    until sunday was on a diet of 4 quarts strider, 2 quarts
    pacer and 3 leafs of hay per day (am & pm).  my first
    preventative "action" was to change her diet to 4 quarts
    strider and 6 leafs hay.  she is turned out daily with
    pierre in a  1.5 - 2 acre pasture from 8am - 6:30pm.
    
    my sister is meeting me wednesday at lunch time to lunge
    her for me.  give me some pointers.  she also agrees
    with me in regards to lunging her first.  
    
    what makes some horses do this when your on them?  i just
    don't find it an acceptable way of trying to unspend
    that energy (i.e. trying to toss me off).  how should
    i discipline her if she does it again?  i don't want
    her to think that behavior is acceptable when i'm on
    her.  am i wrong for feeling this way?
    
    actually her saddle and girth are precautions i've always
    taken even before this happened (although i wouldn't
    rule it out at this point).  i check her girth for anything 
    obstructive (i.e. burrs etc.).  i pull her pad up into the 
    saddle as not to be taut across her back.  i check her
    for wrinkles or anything that would make her uncomfortable.
    i believe her saddle fits well and is of the same type
    she was being ridden with before i bought her.
    
    she's a sweet horse by nature so what makes her so ugly 
    when i'm on her is new to me.  
    
    thank you for all the advice off-line.  the advice i'm
    getting has been very consistent to what i also believed.
    now i feel comfortable in taking these preventative actions.
    
    if these preventative actions don't work and she does it
    again.  what should i do to discipline her if anything?
    
    thanks,
    
    donna
    

    I agree on keeping his head up while cantering.  I had to learn the
    hard way myself that giving a horse his head when asking him to canter,
    run, or gallop can put you on the ground.  In my case, the horse was
    young and inexperienced... I had to become the experienced one to avoid
    being bucked off on each outing.  Two years after my problems with him
    my 10 year old daughter, who rides very well, made the same mistake I
    did and he bucked her off.  Fortunately, she wasn't hurt.  She got back
    on and rode him home without any more problems.
    

    
    Yea you might want to cut back on the grain..
    I dont always agree with that (but thats my opInion) I mean how you
    feel if you were used to getting potatoes at night (2 cups) and 
    tonight and there after you get 1 (not a big difference) but 
    still the same... anyways.. I would just increase her work..
    I would lunge her before i ride her and if you was a brat and you are
    done riding. stand her in the cross ties and then go lunge her..
    
    			wendy o'
    
    
    
    

    What was Winnie eating before her move??  

    Speaking from experience, the amount and type of feed can effect horses.
    For example, my horse can not contain himself when fed sweet feed over
    a period of time - it goes straight to his head.  

    When I moved him in October, he was getting 4 qts pellets/oats AM & PM. 
    The new barn started him off at that amount, but they have sweet feed 
    intermixed with their pellets and they feed alfalfa hay.  Within a week, 
    I had a monster.  They cut his grain WAY down and though it reduced the 
    airs-above-the-ground, over time things just got worse.  Increasing his
    work load made no difference, I even spent 1.5 hours one Saturday 
    determined to trot and canter a circle w/o him bolting and w/o my arms 
    getting pulled from their sockets.  The following day I chose to lunge him,
    and he acted as though he hadn't been worked in 3 wks!  At that point the 
    folks at the barn removed the sweet feed from his portions and within 
    days I had he was reasonable again.

    I strongly suggest eliminating the sweet feed if she wasn't having it 
    before.  I'd also suggest comparing the protein level of the feed before
    the move and after... she may feel like she's on "high-test" ... or as
    the barn I moved too puts it "too much Wheaties!"

	Good luck!
				-Caroline
    

    Sounds to me like riding weekends only is not enough work for her. 
    Cutting the sweet feed will help.  If you were riding more frequently
    than weekends only, then cutting the amount of grain won't be out of
    line either.
    
    I lunge my guy occasionally (esp. on very windy or cold days) to let
    him get the bucks out of his system.  To keep him from pulling my arm
    out of my socket, I put the lunge through the bit, over the crown and
    hook it to the outside bit ring (using a snaffle bit only).  
    
    Also, if you have a fenced ring, lunge in there.  If she tries to take 
    off, just stay with her and bring her down slowly, instead of trying to
    lock yourself into place.
    
    Mary

    What about turn-out? My horse is a complete air-head if he is not
    turned out every day. He also gets pellets, no sweet feed, or it's
    rodeo time. If he does try to bolt he gets put into a tight circle,
    and bucking gets rewarded by insisting on collection. The change in
    weather makes them just feel good no matter what you do.

    i kept winnie on the same diet she was being fed before i
    bought her.  the girl (beth) i bought her from had 2 other 
    horses and didn't have time for winnie.  she assured me winnie
    was the same no matter if you rode her every day or
    once a month.
    
    i believe because of winnie's excellent physical condition
    that she was ridden much more than beth led me to believe.
    
    winnie's physical condition is great.  she has a lot of energy
    and endurance.  up until this weekend i had no problems
    with her other than happy bucks.  of course with winter
    she is not being ridden frequently.  other than trailering
    her to an indoor ring there's not much i can do (considering
    i don't have a trailer that's not very realistic either).
    one thing i can do tho is lunge her on my lunch hour which
    i'm going to do tomorrow with my sister helping me.
    
    i changed her diet sunday (no sweet feed).  maybe that alone
    will make a difference.
    
    i do use a chain rather than leather.  i don't seem to have
    trouble stopping her.  she listens to the bit.  the second
    time she did her act i thought i was prepared (in regards
    to her putting her head down) but it happens so fast
    i can't even remember what happened... and the next thing
    i know i'm hanging on the horn getting frustrated and angry.
    
    she has plenty of turn out.  i board with one other horse
    (a QH gelding) and they're turned out from 8am - 6:30pm 
    with about 1.5 - 2 acres to play in.  they've fallen "in
    love" which is one reason she's a pill when i bring her
    in away from him on the cross-ties.
    
    although i've had alot of experience around horses in my
    teen years.  i'm still a novice and my biggest frustration
    is just not knowing what i should do.  i know i shouldn't
    get angry with her and i'll try not to if she does it
    again.  i don't want her to loose trust in me just
    respect me.  it just stinks tho when you just want an
    enjoyable ride and your friends horse behaves like a
    total gentleman at all times and i'm off in the field 
    brushing up my rodeo skills....
    
    thanks for the advice.  i'll keep plugging and see what happens
    when i go out again...
    
    donna

    Hi Donna,
    
    As previous notes mentioned, check her feed and tack, if you rule
    them out as possible culprits, you may want to train her to lunge.
    A horse that knows and OBEYS voice commands from the ground is a
    much safer horse to ride. EVERY horse should know how to lunge 
    BEFORE being ridden. It is a horrifying experience to be galloping
    down the road with an out of control horse that will not listen 
    to voice commands.
    
    If you feel she will be a pill to lunge, begin with lunging     
    on a 15' meter circle, do not give her all of the line. Of course 
    you will only want to walk, trot, and halt on a small circle 
    until she becomes more balanced. She will be less likely to 
    act up if she is closer to the whip. It will also give you
    more control and less chance of you or the horse getting wrapped
    in the line. If she acts up, immediately HALT her in her tracks. 
    She will learn that bucking is not acceptable. Never use the lunge whip
    to reprimand her. Only use your voice, but when she is good,
    make a big thing about it, talk to her, pet her, and give
    her a goodie when you are done.
    
    If she is a brat on the trail, and you feel you need to return home
    before she hurts you, IMMEDIATELY put her on the lunge line when you 
    arrive home and give her a lunge lesson. In this way, she will not think 
    that every time she acts up, she will be rewarded by going home.
    
    If you have an enclosed ring, you may want to "free" lunge her, that
    is, she will not have a line attached to her. She may gallop around,
    buck and rear, but she will eventually calm down.
    
    Don't give up, she will learn eventually that YOU are the boss. I know
    it seems frightening at times but lunge work will help you to put faith
    in her as she improves, and she will learn to respect you. 
    
    Tina
    

    If she's giving you a hard time when brought in from the field, you
    might try tying her to something very sturdy, and let her work it
    out for herself.  Don't interfere when she gets fussy.  Don't give her
    any hay (reward for beig fussy).  Stay nearby until she quiets down,
    then reward her.  Repeat as often as necessary.  We've done this
    with several horses that have gotten bratty, and it works.  Soon they
    figure out that if they behave they will get the attention they want.
    
    Some of the horses have dug to china and try'd to destroy the wall or
    post.....but the final result (nice horse) was always achieved.
    
    

    re .-1
    
    I heartily agree!  Teaching a horse to tie can work wonders.  I had
    (still have) a Thoroughbred gelding who had never been taught to tie,
    and I did just the sort of thing you suggested.  Well, he went nuts for
    a little while (always use panic snaps when doing this...) but
    eventually calmed down.  But the real reward is that they learn not to
    struggle against restraint.  In fact what moved me to teach this guy
    to tie was that he was such a puller when ridden, he'd almost yank my
    arms out of the sockets!  Well, not too long after this session, he
    managed to get a really bad overreach wound and was confined to his
    stall, which had a stall guard across the door. (Yes, I know better
    now)  Well, while doing airs above the ground in his stall, he got
    a hoof hung up in it, and suddenly realized he was trapped.  Just as I
    expected him to explode and break his leg, he stopped fighting
    completely and just stood there while I untangled his hoof.
    
    -ellie  

re. -.1

you might want to add to reply .13 that there are precuationary measures to
take before trying anything like tying a horse to a post and letting it fuss.

Diffenernt horses react differently and instinctively to restraint (fight or
flight mechanism). An animal that becomes frightened tied to a post can become
a very dangerous situation for both you and the animal. Horses have broken
their necks trying to break free from a restraint. You may be unable to
intervene for your own safety sake. It's amazing how fast that 1000 lbs can
become potentially lethal.

If you decide to do something like that, get the help of someone experienced
and make sure that the halter and lead are breakable (leather).  

    i just got back from the barn.  winnie had new shoes put on
    today.  my blacksmith (and long-time friend) has known winnie
    for the past 5 years or so (previous to me buying her).  he
    says she's had several owners in the past 5 years. i know
    beth (owner prior to me) only had her for 5 months.
    
    it got me thinking that she hasn't really learned to trust
    anyone yet.  although she still has alot of spunk which i
    now believe is because of not getting enough exercise in 
    relation to her protein intake maybe she doesn't listen 
    to me because she doesn't trust me at all yet.
    
    she got very fidgety (sp?) while i was holding her for
    the blacksmith and she responded so much better when i talked
    to her soothingly while petting her then when i was trying
    to be firm. 
    
    she's like having a child.  you do what you think is best but
    it doesn't always prove best for the child.  good experience
    for when i have a real child... (-:
    
    donna

    
    re .0
    
    I have a 13 yr old Appy Gelding and he is AWSOME in the ring. but
    get him out of the ring and is a BUCKING BRONCO!  He has broken
    my arms and given me whiplash on a number of occaisons.  He has
    been trained and trained but it does NO good. 
    
    I have lunged him VERY HARD for hours at a time and he still is a
    BUCKING BRONCO when I leave the ring.  There is NO hope for this
    Appy.  After 3 years of tring to break him of this habbit, I have
    chosen to give up and now I only ride him in the ring.
    
    and he will be leaving my barn this summer. I suggust if yours is
    as a bucking fool as mine..save the headace...get ride of your appy
    and find something else you can enjoy.  Dont waste 3 yrs like I did.
    Its not worth you getting hurt.
    
    Louisa & Joey 

    But if she's been getting this same feed all along, why the sudden
    problem? I'd look at more than just the sweet feed, as a lot of
    the previous notes have suggested. You say it's Pacer? I'm not
    sure of the protein level (isn't it 10% or 12%) but I do know that
    it has very little molasses in it....and is it not the molasses in
    sweet feed (ie: the sugar in the molasses) that makes them seem "high"?
    Someone correct me if I am wrong, please.  I feed my mare 4 qts daily
    of Charger (14% and lots of molasses) and 4 qts of Strider pellets.
    She's full of energy. I used to try to feed her all pellets, thinking
    it would reduce her energy level. It didn't. And she didn't like it,
    either, didn't finish her meals. She gets the Charger because of a 
    finicky appetite, and she eats well on it. She's not any different
    personality wise than when she did not get it. She's a hot horse,
    full of spunk, and nothing is going to change it. I do hope you find
    eliminating the sweet feed from her diet works for you, but be aware
    that it does not in all cases and you may need to look for causes
    beyond that.
    
    I'm curious....is the horse she is turned out with, the one you
    say she is "in love" with, the same one you trail ride with? Could
    it be that she is not so much "herd-bound" as "buddy-bound" ??
    Does she dislike being seperated from him so much that her bucking
    could be an effort to go back to him regardless of the fact that
    another horse is with her?
    
    Be careful disciplining her, be sure you punish WHILE she is bucking,
    rather than after she stops and you've regained your seat enough to
    let go of the horn and slap her with your reins. Horses don't reason
    the same as humans, if you punish her after the bucking, she may 
    associate the punishment with the stopping rather than the bucking.
    I don't think that bucking indicates she doesn't TRUST you, but perhaps
    more of a testing of you, to see if you'll come off, or if you'll give
    in and let her have her way. Where she's had so many different owners,
    she could easily have learned to test her riders, having learned that
    they're all different and react differently to her antics.
    
    Good luck, she sounds like a basically sweet horse who just needs some
    time to get to know you and what the ground rules for your relationship
    are going to be! :-)
    
    

    .19
    
    the same horse she's in love with is the same horse i ride
    with.  i've taken her out with another horse (without
    him) and she was fine.
    
    i think pacer only has 12% protein and not much molasse (sp?).
    she's eating the strider with no problem.  she's a little
    piglet anyway.
    
    tomorrow (weather permitting) i'll be lunging her with my
    sister.  we'll see then if she still has that extra
    spunk.  or more than likely i'll find out the next time
    i take her out.
    
    if she was a problem all along then i'd say she needs professional
    training or something i can't give but she's been fine other
    than having lots of energy.  saturday was the first time she
    behaved (with me) like that.  i hope it is just a matter
    of her feeling her "oats".  i can work with that.
    
    donna
         

    re.19
    
    i agree (thats why i really dont like to cut a horses food just like 
    that) 
    
    I mean yea this horse was fine (marginal ok, let say) and then you
    added an extra 6 quarts.. i'd say yea you might want to cut back some
    :*)
    
    i dunno i feel for the horse that gets his DIN_DIN cut in half :*(
    
    		wendy o'
    

    I was working on a green mare last winter. My instructor had me 
    give her a little gentle persuation with the spurs when ever she
    started doing the rodeo thing. Only had to do that 2 times.
     
    After that all I had to do was hang the spurs on the horn. 
    
    
    Good luck,
             Carl
    

Barometric pressure changes are something that horses sense and react to often
before we humans notice.  Saturday (in the greater Boston area) was a day of 
changes.  A lot of horses act strangely when the weather changes. When the 
weather gets cold, a lot of horses discover more energy than they had even the 
day before.  You can't necessarily blame the food.  It may be just right for 
her.  (My horse gets only trotter pellets, and there are some days I don't try 
to do *anything* without a seat belt!!!!)

You know she was being jerk even before you left the barn.  Use that as a key to 
what she may be like under saddle.  If she's being a real toad, don't do what
you might normally let her do (i.e. canter on the trail - she's being a jerk,
so today we walk, and *maybe* trot, if she's behaving).  No messing around. It's
not worth you getting hurt any kind of distance from home (even *at* home).

Horses have bad days too.  You need to be able to adjust so you don't add to 
their bad day (or they to yours).

    we lunged winnie today and she was fine.  my sister had to get
    after her to keep up the pace.  she only lunged her for 5 
    minutes.  winnie definately had no bucks in her today.  i'm 
    sure the weather is a factor too (it was very warm 76 degrees).
    
    it's true.  she was a toad before going out that day.  maybe
    when i better learn to predict her behavior i won't be taken
    off guard next time.
    
    i hope this doesn't sound stupid but.... how do you ensure
    your horse keeps it's head up?  just by keeping a tight rein?
    
    thanks again!
    
    donna

    I have not read all the notes in this file yet...but i have seen 
    several time folks mention...IT MUST BER THE SWEAT FEED.....
    
    Sweat fed is not what makes horses hot. I have to laugh when I hear 
    folks say i feed both pellets and sweat feed.... WHY???
    
    because it tasts better to the horse......yes maybe this is ture....
    but I worked for a while for a feed company. Lets use Blue Seal...
    when these folks make Pacer...which is a sweat feed...10% protein I
    believe they also use the same ingredents in their Strider which is
    pellets....and I believe is 12% protein. The difference is the pellet
    form of feed is run through a machine...corn, oats, molasses, etc....
    and ground up and then packed into these little pellets. They are
    (the pellets) already partically digested for the horse to eat. If you
    feed sweat feed you will notice in the horse manure that you and see
    corn and oats in it. BUT when you feed the pellets there is none of
    that waiste in the manure. The molasses is there but you do not see
    it or feel it.
    
    It is the protein level that will influence the horses. I do not know
    maybe I am totally of the subject here and should finish reading 
    that file but I just thought that this would be of interest to folks.
    
    By adding extra vitamins to your feeds you are also increasing these
    levels. Grain companies make grain for the area that the feeds are
    going out to. So Blue Seal is not sold all over the us. It is a New
    England company as well as Purina and Agway, etc. All these companies
    know what minerals and vitamins are lacking in our area out of the 
    soils and so they add them to the feeds for the livestock. So copper
    in lower in New England so the companies ad more copper to the feeds
    etc.
    
    Well I have rambled on.....I do believe that feeding pelleted forms
    of feed is not only better for the animals because they will get more
    out of it where is is ground up.
    
    

    re .-1
    
    Depends on what type of pellets you are comparing to sweet feed.  I
    use complete pellets to keep my horses off the ceiling, not "grain"
    pellets.  I suspect this is what we are talking about.  The thing to
    check is the calories per pound.  It's extra calories that give horses
    extra energy.  And there seems to be some evidence from different
    studies I've seen that it seems to make even more difference if these
    extra calories come from carbohydrates -- like corn and oats and
    molasses.  (By the way, I don't think grain pellets contain molasses.)
    The complete pellets, however, are lower in calories per pound than
    either the sweet feed or the grain pellets, since they contain hay as
    part of their compositional makeup.  I don't know if Blue Seal lists
    the calories per pound on the tag, but I'm sure you can get the
    information from the dealer, since they are usually very knowledgable
    about the make up of their feeds.
    
    -ellie

    Molasses is unprocessed SUGAR, too, so that can add quite
    a bit of energy!!! (-8
    
    

    I have a question about the bucking horse, and I'm suggesting this be
    used in this case, but....
    
    A place I used to ride at had a wonderful horse, except for one bad
    habit.  He didn't buck, but he would put his head down very fast, and
    yank the young riders right out of their saddle and over his head.  He
    wouldn't run away or anything, but found an effective way to dump you
    off.  For bigger riders he would pull our arms out of our sockets
    trying to hold his head up.   So, the owners put an overcheck device on
    him.  It attached to the dee rings in the front of the saddle, went up
    his neck, down each side of his face and attach to the bit.  
    
    Of course, he never could get his head down with the overcheck device,
    and would ride beautifully.  You can't use that device in the show
    ring, but since they never rode him without an overcheck, the few
    minutes he was in the show ring, he probably didn't realize he had it
    on.
    
    How do people feel about something like that?  Of course, you would
    want to lunge your horse with it on, so they know they have something
    on - not let it be a horrible surprise where they decide to bolt out of
    the fear of finding something new attached to the bit.
    
    
    Oh yes, the overcheck can be adjusted so the horse can carry their head
    comfortably, just not get it down to their knees.
    
    Tina D.

    
    When I was younger and learning to ride at a camp, they had a super
    talented hunter pony with a lot of experience.  His only problem was
    that occasionally he would get his head down and let out some really
    twisty bucks.  Apparently noone was able to stay on him through these
    bucking fits.
    
    They used an overcheck device exactly like you described, and it worked
    wonders!  If he couldn't get his head down, he couldn't buck!
    
    Amy

    Just watch her...when she starts to put her head down,
    pull it up immediately....
    

    I agree with -1, but I would like to add:
    
    1) keep the bit in contact at all times
    
    2) never droop the reins over the horn or pommel
    
    3) when you ask for the canter ( or more ) do NOT give a free rein
    
    That's how I would explain keeping the horse's head up.

    The "check" devices were originally designed for driving horses. they
    were originally used for the reasons you folks have suggested, keeping
    the horse from getting its head down. It's rather difficult to pull a
    horse's head up with the long driving reins from a carriage. If you
    recall your childhood reading of Black Beauty, it was TIGHT checks that
    were considered inhumane.
    
    There are two styles of check, the over-check and the side-check.
    The side-check would be preferable for a riding horse.
    
    The the over-check and the side-check take different paths between the 
    d-rings and the bit. Because of the difference in path, they have
    different action. I'll try to explain it.
    
    The over-check goes up over the horse's poll, between its ears and then 
    down its muzzle to the bit. The side-check has two "reins". One runs up 
    along each side of the neck through a metal loop which hangs near the 
    throatlatch of the bridle and then alongside the cheekstraps of the bridle 
    to the bit. The check is usually attached to a small snaffle or bar bit
    that is separate from the bit used for steering.
    
    When a horse puts pressure on the bit attached to the over-check, it
    puts pressure on the gums of the upper jaw. This kind of pressure is
    liekly to make the horse to stick its nose out and hollow its back. This 
    effect can be exaggerated by certain kinds of bits. With its nose out
    and back hollow, a riding horse is all discombobulated! If you've ever
    ridden a horse who REALLY hollows its back, you know you don't want
    that. You have less control and its bad for the horse's back. I usually
    say that a horse with a hollow back feels like you're sitting between
    the humps of a two humped camel! 
    
    If you are planning to show this horse, the action of the over-check may 
    make it difficult for the horse to flex at the poll which is important
    for most types of showing including Western Pleasure, English Pleasure 
    and dressage.
    
    The side-check puts pressure on the corners and the bars of the mouth
    at an angle similar to that which a rider would apply with her/his
    hands. The action of the side-check is likely to make a horse flex
    his poll when he hits it and he won't hollow his back, etc.
    
    So, if you want to use a chekc as a safety valve, I recommend a
    side-check that is loose enough for the horse to carry his head
    normally but not so loose that he can get his head to his knees(which
    is bucking territory!) Maybe somewhwere about the level of his elbow or
    a bit below would be a good compromise.
    
    John

    Replying to .46. 
    
    	I agree with "when you feel the horses head go down pull it up"
    with one exception.
    
    If the horse is really trying to dump you , if they cann't do it 
    "over the top" the will try to dump you backwards. I've seen them
    go from bucking to rearing real fast. (A friend of mine with many
    years on horses ended up with a brused spleen and an artery severed
    in her leg this way).
    
    When I feel the buck comming first I give it a poke with the spurs
    then a pull up and to the SIDE. This seems to totally prevent the 
    rear. If he wants to spin alittle well ok. I take the head to the other
    side. 
    
    If anybody out there has another way or feels I am way off please
    let me know. I am on a very long and large learning curve and
    invite any criticisms.
    
    Thanks,
    	Carl

    A friend of mine that has raised many young horses advocates 
    spinning the horse when it tries to buck.  It keeps their feet
    on the ground and gets their mind off bucking.  He had one mare
    that was a big bucker and he broke her by carrying one of those 
    quirts with the big leather popper on the end (makes a lot of 
    noise but doesn't really hurt the horse).  Whenever she bucked
    he'd pop her on the side and spin her.  She stopped bucking after
    about one session.  
    
    I'd rather see if it was just a one time occurrence or even too
    much sweet feed before I tried to "correct" the behavior, but
    if the horse kept it up spinning is a good option too.
    
    \Caroline
    

    Depending on the cause, my first trainer -- Lockie Richards -- 
    handled bucking one of two ways:
    
    1.  high spirits or attempt to dump rider as cause -- drive them
    forward hard.  They can't buck (hard) if they're moving forward. (most
    common scenario)
    
    2.  if they're bucking to avoid carrying weight on the hind end
    (1st-2nd level dressage or higher), occasionally he would have me back
    quickly and then ride forward (kind of a high-speed rocker).
    
    Mary

    as far as bucking goes and true bucker (something that can really 
    crank) the way to get them out of that is to spur them out, not
    everyone can ride them out.. these days i dont think i would (too many
    variables.   ...
    
    
    the other way (as someone mentioned ) it to get them in the belly
    ... The way i do that is that those one inch cotton ropes and 
    have two of them (as split reins) and long enoght that the fall to the 
    horses knees. and when they buck just go from side to side... left
    right,left right and getting popped in the belly with those knotted
    ends seems to quite the bcuking spells... you just gotta ride em out..
    
    personally now-adays.. i dont even bother with that..
    

    Many people question why my reins are so long ( Re .51)
    
    That's why!!! (-8
    
    Never had to use them, tho'.....
    
    L-

    what's "spinning" (can't remember which note it was)?
    
    donna

    SPINNING: 
    
    is like a rollback (they keep their back feet or one back foot
    stationary) and a spin is when the horses front feet cross over and
    tehn around..
    
    

    Spinning is a move a reining horse does, too!
    
    

    There is alot of good advice in this note - I've had success with
    changing from oats to low protein pellets, grass hay (vs. Alfalfa) 
    lots of turnout and lunging.  My particular horse just needed lots
    of exercise - which was difficult time-wise - and doing the above
    made all the difference except for bucking on the trail when every
    one started to gallop.  I wasn't sure there was an answer to this
    behaviour which I interpreted as "happy bucks".  Well, I realized
    at some point that my horse was gradually starting to get the upper
    hand with me on the ground, in the saddle, etc.  One day he almost
    kicked me in the face while I was going in his stall to fill his
    water bucket.  Needless to say he wore the water bucket.  After that
    incident, I focused on respect lessons - no need to be abusive, just
    demanding his utmost attention all the time ie: leading, lunging,
    riding.  The bucking stopped and he moved out of my "space" whenever
    I was around.
    
    Another good point was made about tying a horse.  Be very careful.  If
    a horse is a puller when they are tied, they can do themselves and
    those around them serious harm.  There are methods of teaching a horse
    to stop this - John Lyons has a wonderful no force approach - but
    whatever you do, don't just tie them and wait to see what happens.  My
    last two horses were pullers, the Hannoverian almost killed himself.
    The blacksmith, who knew better, tied him with a no-slip knot to the
    hitching post (8" timbers sunk into concrete).  When I got home from
    work the hitching post was destroyed, the cement cracked and my horse had
    a fractured skull bone.  Seems he want right over backwards when he
    panicked and at 16.3H, 1500+ lbs, he did alot of damage to himself. 
    It's a miracle that the blacksmith didn't get hurt.  The horse was ok,
    but the vet said he could have been killed or blinded.  John Lyons 
    explains it this way ... in understanding what's going on in the horses
    mind - the horse thinks the rope is doing all the pulling on him and
    gets panicky.  The solution to this is to teach the horse that he can
    stop the rope from pulling by stepping toward the rope to put slack in
    it - to give to the rope just like he gives to the bit.
    
    BTW - John Lyons is going to be at Heritage Farm May 1-6.  He
    demonstrates breaking a young horse.  His tactics are interesting,
    although I question how tired he gets the horse - his stories are
    entertaining and he does get results.

    re: last
    
    You mentioned that when your horses' bucking problem got worse, you
    focussed on demanding his attention.  Can you tell me how you did this? 
    I ask because getting my horses attention is absolutely the BIGGEST
    problem I have with him.  When I finally got him back from being broken
    last winter, the written evaluation from the trainer's lead off with
    how astonishingly inattentive he is.  I spent most of last winter
    struggling to get and hold his attention without getting rough or
    abusive.  I even tried letting him crash into walls and jump
    standards...all to no avail.
    
    On the ground is not a problem.  Its more, out of sight, out of mind. 
    At this point, I almost invariably end up with a 5-10 minute argument,
    which I win only by yelling at him and smacking him.  Not real classy,
    to say the least.  And definitely a fun-wrecker!
    
    Mary

    Does your horse possibly have a hearing or eyesight problem?
    

    I just can't resist this...
    
    My horse, who is, as anyone who knows me, perfect.  But he has the
    attention span of a flea.  He is also, as is Mary's horse, an Arabian.
    My theory on this is that these horses are smarter than average
    which works against us.  They tend not to do well if they have to
    concentrate and focus for longer than, say, 5 or 10 seconds (on a
    good day).  That's why they always look so bright...they're focusing
    on something way off in the distance...probably on another planet...
    not on what you happen to want to do.
    
    And I also think that trying to force them to do it our way is a
    mistake.  We have to figure out a way to use their brain power
    (now there's an oxymoron) to our advantage.  And as soon as I figure
    out how to do that, I'm going to write the definitive book on training
    Arabians for the space program and retire to my new estate in the
    country.
    
    But in general what seems to work is to vary the scenery if you can.
    Not easy to do in New England in winter.  And what works best for me
    is to get the advice and assistance of a trainer who specializes in
    Arabians.  I'll be the first to say that some Arab trainers aren't
    qualified to clean my barn but there are some who truly are horsemen
    and women, who know what they're doing.  If anyone would like me to
    name names, just contact me off line.
    
    Good luck, Mary.  You have a truly nice horse...he'll figure it out.
    As I say about Back Bey, here he is only ten years old and he's got
    me trained already.
    
    Gwen
    

   
   Well I just have to stir up trouble here! :^)
   I had an Arab, and she had an EXCELLENT attention span. 
   She did both dressage tests and hunter courses well. Those
   activities both require steadiness and empathy with the rider. 
   And she had only three years under saddle with a novice rider
   (no pro trainer) so it did not take her a long time to figure 
   things out. 

   I agree with Gwen, though, that they are *thinking* horses, and 
   not everyone is prepared to understand what makes them tick.    

    re: last 2
    
    I agree with you both to a degree.  I think arabs are very much
    individuals -- some have very short attention spans, some very long
    ones.   They also have different personalities.  The mares I've met
    (admittedly only a few -- 5 or 6 total) have tended to be very sweet 
    and willing.  Algiers tends to be very *macho*, except when he doesn't 
    feel well (when he becomes the world's biggest baby :-). 
    
    In Algiers' case, his attention to a rider is *non-existant* until he 
    *decides* to pay attention.  (Its funny, he's the exact opposite on the
    ground -- follows me like a puppy most of the time).
    
    And I forgot that one thing that led us into trouble is that he loves 
    excitement -- including the excitement of driving me to get tough with 
    him.  However, once he's decided to go to work, he's fabulous.  For 
    example, I took him in a walk/trot test in September (his 1st show
    under saddle and my 1st test in 8+ years).  We started out with a string 
    of fives (he was ignoring me, which actually should have helped since I 
    forgot which test I was riding and started riding the training 1 test 
    right after our entry :-).  By the time I remembered the test enough to 
    really ride it and *got his attention*, his scores jumped to sixes, sevens 
    and eights.  So I figure once I get myself together and get him together 
    right at the start, he should be scoring in the mid-upper 60s on our bad 
    days.
     
    I also forgot that near the end of the long, "dark" summer in which we 
    got onto this bad track, I tried using very short (1/4") dull spurs to 
    supplement my leg when he was ignoring me, and voila!  I stopped using 
    them in the fall, when we started really addressing his canter (he found 
    cantering exciting enough to capture his attention) but maybe now that 
    canter work is routine, spurs will work again.  I should write these 
    things down so I don't forget them when I need them (but then I'll 
    probably just lose the paper I wrote them on).
    
    Gwen, although I'm sortof broke right now, I'd be interested in knowing 
    of any arab trainers that specialize in dressage.  By specialize, I mean 
    have trained horses to at least 2nd level and preferably to 4th or 
    higher.  Algiers is already schooling 1st level, and has offered a little 
    2nd level work (solid shoulder-in, has done a little collected/medium
    trot).  I plan to continue the work towards collected & medium trot, have 
    started to introduce simple lead changes, and will start travers/renvers
    within a couple of weeks.  If travers and renvers work go as well as
    shoulder-in, I expect to be starting half-pass by spring.
    
    Mary 

    I agree that concentration and attention spans can vary from horse to
    horse - my Appy was easily bored and very smart.  He really needed 
    a change of scenery and routine.  When I did work him in the ring my
    biggest challenge was to think up things to do that would keep him 
    interested and not drill him to death.  When he got bored he got
    cranky and everything would fall apart.
    
    When he got cantankerous we worked, worked, worked.  We did circles,
    circles, circles.  Out on the trail if he started up I worked him
    hard in circles or back and forth on the trail.  I'm sure he thought
    twice about that next buck when he realized he paid dearly for them.
    
    I personally think Arabs are very intelligent - my warmblood, well,
    that's another story....
     

    Well, the spurs did the trick!  He was wonderful on Friday night, from
    beginning to end.  Saturday was awful, but that was because I couldn't
    find my lungeline so figured I just start off on his back.  He was
    cranky and full of fight the whole ride, and I let myself get sucked
    into it again.  Sunday, I found my lungeline (I had put it back where
    it belonged -- hadn't thought to look for it there!) and, happily, we 
    had a best ride we've had in a long time.  What I learned from Saturday 
    is that during the winter I have to lunge him at least a few minutes 
    before I get on him.  Like many horses with longish backs, he tends to 
    be "coldbacked."  It really helps, in the cold weather, to warm him up 
    without the weight of a rider and also with the girth not fully 
    tightened.
    
    Teaching him new movements seems to fix the boredom issue best.  
    Plain old shoulder-in is becoming routine to him, but he thinks it's 
    *real cool* to do shoulder-in halfway down a long side and then switch 
    to counter shoulder-in.  To add to his repertoire, I started him on 
    travers and renvers yesterday.  Happily, he took the bait and was trying 
    for them.  They are a bit more difficult than shoulder-in, which is 
    perfect since it gives him a challenge that is just out of reach.
    
    Thanks, all, for suggestions!
    
    Mary

    Hi Wendy,
    
    	Info on John Lyons - the 3 day clinic for horse and rider is
    1000.00 (pricey)!  I attended the 2 day symposium for 80.00 (60.00 if
    you register early over the phone), and there's also a 1 evening
    program which is 2 hours of discussion - price is around 20-30.
    
    The number to call is 1-800-877-1302 (Parachute, CO) you can use your
    credit card.  The Lyons organization also sets up a host hotel for
    out-of-staters, call Heritage for this info, I think they offer a cut
    rate.  I just looked at the schedule and the programs planned at
    Heritage are the 3 day clinic, sat/sun symposium and the friday night
    program.
    
    I enjoyed the weekend symposium in Scottsdale.  He broke and rode a 
    huge 4 year old that had never been touched, other than halter breaking.  
    It was fascinating to listen to his "horse psycology".  Funny thing, this
    horse was looney-tunes when we first saw it.  Every one said they
    wouldn't own a horse like that.  Well, by the end of the program the
    owner had a few offers for the horse.  You could see that this horse
    thought he was king of the barn and needed to be more respectful of
    people.
    
    Later on sunday, he worked with a green broke Lipizzaner.  He was 
    basically trained and really good natured, but wasn't responding 
    consistently to the basic aids.  He really responded well to the
    training.
    
    It's a fun 2 days - John host a "cowboy church service" on sunday am.
    There's booths set up by Orthoflex, Professionals Choice and the Lyons
    company for tapes and books.  Local horse-businesses are encouraged to
    set up a booth as well.  Speaking of Professionals Choice, they sell
    really neat protective boots.  They are like splint boots but cover the
    the entire fetlock area and are used on all four legs.  I checked them
    out and watched them being used .... they're made out of neoprine-like
    material but theres some give to the whole boot, so you can't put them
    on too tight.  I worried about chaffing on the pastern but they are
    spongy and didn't make a mark.  Cost for 4 boots ~ 200.00.
    
    Let me know if you go and if you liked it.
    
    - Janice

    re .56
    
    janice,
    
    you've described my appy perfectly.  i have winnie on low
    protein pellets, grass hay, lots and lots of turnout and
    i've started lunging her before riding.  all to no avail.
    
    when i bring her on the trail she still bucks.  yesterday
    she bucked (at a trot) and when her hind legs came down
    her legs went out from under her so she was actually
    sitting (the ground was muddy)....  
    
    what caught my eye most about your note was respect 
    on and off the ground.  i think this may apply to winnie.
    when walking through the paddock she's so preoccuppied with 
    pierre that she has nearly killed me on many occasions.  
    she bucks, rears and tries to plow my over.  when i get 
    her halter now she takes off.  she's always been a pain 
    on the cross-ties.  she'd rather be with pierre than listening 
    to me.  i don't know how to get her respect.
    
    my sister tells me some horses just like to buck.  i believe
    she may be right.  why did i have to get a horse who
    hollows out her back and gives bucks like you see in
    rodeos.  i'm afraid to do anything with her now.  i'm
    planning on taking lessons in the spring.  maybe that
    will help.
    
    donna           

    A chain properly applied over the nose helps a great deal with respect.
    For your own safety please take the time to get respect on the ground.
    I regularly work with my BRAT on leading, backing and whoa. We
    sometimes walk One step at a time until he decides to be polite. If you
    don't know where to start get someone to help you, it makes the horse
    so much nicer all around.
    Sandy
    

    I JUST WANT TO SAY I BREAK HORSES IN THE OLD "BUCAROO STYLE".  RIDING
    THROUGH AND MOVING FORWARD IS THE BEST WAY.  PERSONALLY, I LIKE A HORSE
    WITH A LITTLE BUCK, IT SHOWS HE STILL HAS A LITTLE SPRIT LEFT.
    
    
    		VLM