Conference noted::equitation

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Note 328.65         Horse Service Directory/Also see 824,601            65 of 69
DASXPS::LCOBURN "If it works, break it."             62 lines  12-OCT-1990 13:16
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Note 1375.0               Any trainer recommendations?                No replies
CARTUN::MISTOVICH                                    55 lines  12-OCT-1990 12:49
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    I am looking for a trainer whom I can trust to take good care of my
    horse and get him well started under saddle without my having to
    monitor or supervise closely.
    
    To me, good care is comprised of:
    
    . daily turnout out in a safe pasture (good fencing, grass not dirt,
      minimal rocks, no deathtraps) preferably with a companion, minimum 2
      hours turnout
    . water buckets cleaned at least once per day, unlimited water
    . bedding at least 6" deep
    . stall cleaned daily
    . sufficient food to keep him in good condition, without overfeeding to
      where he is a maniac 
    
    Good training means:
    
    . steering, gas and brakes
    . walk, trot and canter under rider, alone or with another horse in the
      ring
    . introduced to trails, alone and with another horse
    
    A good trainer has the guts to face down a tantrum, rather then
    constantly giving in in order to avoid tantrums.
    
    Quite frankly, I am beginning to despair of finding a good boarding
    situation.  I have been to 3 places in the last year.  At 2 of them
    (one in Lancaster, one in Hubbardston) I was playing premium prices.  
    At the place in Lancaster, the bedding consisted of about 1/2-1" of
    sawdust, until midwinter.  When the sawdust pile froze, there was NO
    bedding whatsoever for days at a time.  Again, in spring, when they ran
    out before the new shipment came in, there was NO bedding for days.  I
    couldn't move my horse because the driveway was impassable.  Additionally, 
    the owner changed my horses' diet directly against what we
    had agreed to.  When I asked her why, she refused to answer and when I
    insisted on an answer, she assaulted me.  I removed my horse under
    police escort the next day.  Against the advice both of my local police
    department and the district attorney, I didn't bother to press charges
    because there were no witnesses and I was not physically hurt.
    
    At my current place in Hubbardston, the situation has remained under
    control only because I go down every weekend to make sure my horse has
    hay and water while the trainer is at shows.  At $400 a month, this is
    unacceptable.  I lost one months training after the fiasco in August 
    (which I described elsewhere).  There have been no further excuses for 
    my horse not to be trained, but the fact is he is making virtually no 
    progress.  As far as I can see, he's "got her number."  
    
    Thanks for any trainer recommendations anyone can make.  I plan to
    spend the next few weeks interviewing trainers, watching them ride and
    am insisting on riding at least one or two horses they've trained.  If
    my horse's progress does no improve substantially in the next few
    weeks, than I will chose another trainer and try again.  If I can't
    find a trainer, then I will put him up for giveaway as a companion
    horse.  I'm pretty much fed up with this whole nightmare.

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Note 328.66         Horse Service Directory/Also see 824,601            66 of 69
CASCRT::BOUTIN                                       13 lines  15-OCT-1990 16:11
                    -< Don't Mean to be defensive.. BUT... >-
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    Sounds like you'd be better off doing it yourself as I know of many
    excellant trainers, but hesitate on recommending them Reason being,
    your requirements seem to be a bit stringent. I have never measured
    the bedding depth, counted the blades of grass, or timed the turn-out
    session. I am paying a professional to use their judgement in these
    matters. Besides, a horse will only make steady progress if it is
    allowed to stay in training with a somewhat regular schedule with
    one trainer and their assistants.
    
    If you can not find someone to satisfy you, have you considered doing
    the job yourself ??
    
    

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Note 328.67         Horse Service Directory/Also see 824,601            67 of 69
CARTUN::MISTOVICH                                    34 lines  16-OCT-1990 17:35
          -< You're right, I am picky.  I'M PAYING FOR THAT RIGHT!!! >-
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    re: last
    
    Believe me, if I had enough money to have my own place, and enough 
    energy left over after work to handle a baby, I would do it myself.
    
    When I'm paying premium board prices, I expect to receive the service 
    I am paying for.  I'm not talking about counting the shavings in the
    stall...last winter he went for days without any bedding at all!  I
    found him in his stall one December night up to his ankles in water!
    
    So far, when I have left his care up to the "professional's" judgement, 
    he has tied-up, colicked, dropped nearly 100 pounds in a week, been 
    dehydrated, gotten a stone bruise that hemorhaged so badly it separated 
    the sole from his foot like a syrian pocket, and sprained a ligament 
    in his stifle.  At last year's place, the turnout was so rocky he kept
    falling down.  I finally spent several hours with a wheelbarrow,
    picking the rocks out of the paddock, to prevent a broken ankle.  
    
    Every single one of these problems could have been prevented by proper
    barn management.  If you would like me to go into detail on how, I'll
    be happy to.  Just as an example, he became dehydrated last August
    because the stable help didn't clean his water bucket...just kept
    topping it off.  His water was so filthy he was only drinking half what
    he needed.  
    
    If I seem picky, its because I'm tired of paying top dollar for help
    from "professionals" and then having to take over in order to save my
    horse's life.  And many of these situations have been life threatening,
    or at least soundness-threatening!
    
    So you're right.  I am picky.  I really don't want to end up having to
    make tough decisions about putting down a horse do to someone's
    negligence.
    

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Note 328.68         Horse Service Directory/Also see 824,601            68 of 69
STNDUP::LMCCROSSAN "Time out for a hot fudge sundae" 28 lines  17-OCT-1990 14:10
                -< Rights of boarders - warning - sore subject >-
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	I have to comment after reading the last couple of replies...

	set flame/on

	I've owned my own horse(s) for the last 15 years (no, that doesn't
	make me anything other than a horseowner) and have never had the
	opportunity to keep my horse on my own property. So, needless to
	say I've had to board them out. I've boarded at more than a couple 
	of barns and, though the barns may have changed, my feelings have
	*always* been that MY HORSE AND I ARE GUESTS.  

	Regardless of what I am paying for, I make it a point to realize
	that my horse and I are guests at someone else's barn.

	Do you realize what these people that offer boarding services go
	through? Have you ever sat down and figured out what their wages
	are for what they give you? When you figure in cost of grain, hay,
	electricity for the barn/outdoor/indoor, water, property taxes,
	shavings, etc. do you know how little is left over for their labor?

	You're really not paying for the "right to be picky". You're paying
	for the luxury of having someone to take care of your horse for you in
	the 95% of the time that you can't be there to feed/water/turn-out the
	horse yourself.

	set flame/off

	

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Note 328.69         Horse Service Directory/Also see 824,601            69 of 69
MRMARS::ALESSANDRINI                                 22 lines  17-OCT-1990 14:44
                             -< This is business >-
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    This is hardly the note to do this, but I will throw my 2 cents in for
    what it's worth.  When somebody is being paid for a service, they are
    providing something in return.  In this case, care for an animal.  I
    know that everyone will have different opinions as to what constitutes
    "proper" care on the small details, ie. depth of bedding etc. but I
    think we can all agree that in general, proper care means a dry, safe,
    secure environment.  That means, water available at all times, being
    fed clean safe food and hay.  Sanitary, ie. clean stalls, efforts to
    minimize danger of fire.  If you cannot supply these, and sometimes 
    things happen, like the shavings man does not show up, than you should
    not be in business.  Many people hang out the stall vac. sign with no
    real idea what it is that they are doing.  I don't think it is unreasonable
    at all to expect that if I visit my horse at any given time, I should
    expect to look into the stall and see clean shavings, a clean bucket of
    water, and decent hay.  The horse should not be looking back at me with
    wet feet, no hay and scummy water.  That is not a service, that is a
    JOKE. For what board is going up to, I had better be getting my monies
    worth, that is not unreasonable, that is business.
    
    regards,
    stephanie
    

    In my 25 years experience with horses, I have kept horses at home,
    boarded them out in full board and rough board situations, provided 
    professional services as a trainer, instructor, barn manager and stall
    mucker, and been a working student.  I've worked and boarded in some 
    of the top dressage barns around and I've been in back yard stables, 
    and everything in between.
    
    In other words, I have been both boarder and boardee.  I know what work 
    is involved, I know how much they cost, and I know what the pay is.
    
    I also know that when I am providing a service, I treat my customers
    with honesty and respect and I provide the service that I've been 
    contracted to provide.  When I am paying $300+ per month, I expect the
    same in return.
    
    If you were a guest at a motel, would you accept dirty linens on your
    bed?  Filthy, damp bath towels?  Dirty glasses in the bathroom?
    
    If you were a guest at a restaurant and you ordered something from the
    menu, how would you respond if the waiter brought you something
    entirely different?  Would you send it back?  And what if, when you
    quietly and politely asked the waiter why he substituted the meal 
    (assuming that he knew something you didn't know), his response was to 
    physically throw you out of the restaurant?  Would you consider this 
    acceptable?
        

    I just have to laugh because I totaly agree that a horse should
    have clean fresh water at ALL times. He should be in at least ankle
    deep in SHAVINGS not sawdust, He should be fed hay at least 3 times a
    day, the owners should be able to come up anytime to see their animals.
    
    The thing that makes me laugh is that I do all these things for my
    boarders and they gave me a hard time when I raised board to 175.00
    and God forbid, asked them to rake the isle when they are done
    grooming.
    
    
    And for 400.00 that horse should be eating out of a silver bucket!
    
    I also think that it is a wise decision to ride and visit as many
    horses that a trainer has supposed to have trained. Then and only then
    will you find out what kind of a trainer they really are.
    
    

I've kept my mouth shut (fingers quiet?) for as long as possible, but this 
discussion has gotten me really annoyed.

It seems that what we're looking at is 2 separate problems, that may need to be
solved separately.  If the issue is the horse's care, then find a stable that
has happy looking horses and you like the arrangements.  That stable may or 
may not have a trainer (any trainer at all).  It may be a private situation.
Since you obviously do not want to have to monitor the horse's daily care on a 
daily basis, FIND A BARN WHERE YOU TRUST THE MANAGEMENT.  Although I agree 
with a lot of what you want for your horse as far as stabling and turn-out are
concerned, there may have to be some give and take.  Maybe the horse goes out
in a SMALL, SAFE PADDOCK, and not a large grassy field.  That's better than not
getting out at all!!  Maybe the shavings aren't 6" deep.  If the stalls are 
clean, that's not as much an issue. 

You have to make a list of priorities. Everything cannot be number 1.  This is
expensive New England.  If you're going to keep a horse here, you have to accept
the consequences.  Land costs a lot to buy and maintain.  Insurance costs a lot.
grain costs a lot.  Shavings cost a lot.  Hay costs a lot. Labor (even at farm
wages) costs a lot. Business practice is that these costs are passed on to the 
consumer (you).  Yes, the barn owners/managers are providing a service, and 
should be held accountable for delivering that service.  It is also your
perogative as a consumer to 'buy' from somewhere else.

The second part of the problem is the fact that you want a trainer.  There are 
at least three ways to solve this problem that I can see.  One, you can put the 
horse in the hands of a trainer you trust (at their barn).  If you trust this
trainer, then you trust them to make the decisions for your horse.  YOU have
to decide what you base your trust on - hearsay, personal acquaintance, seeing
horses that they've trained competing successfully in your discipline, or 
whatever.  Two, you could have the trainer comme to wherever you keep the horse
on some sort of agreed-upon schedule - daily, weekly, twice-weekly, twice-
monthly, whatever you can afford.  Third, you could take your horse to the 
trainer on a periodic basis.

Options 2 and 3 allow you to keep the horse where you feel comfortable about
it's daily care, whether that be in a back yard, or in a large stable.  Option
3 has the added burden on you of needing access to a truck and trailer.  Option
2 means you'll probably pay for the trainer's travelling time.  Both of these
options mean that YOU are responsible for your horse's training in between 
sessions with the trainer. 

Option 1 has the downfall that you may not like the barn that the trainer works
out of.  It may be too far away, it may not have all the ammenities that you 
like, but the trainer is there.  If the trainer is satisfied there, and the
horses seem satisfied, then is that enough for you, or do you still want 
everything else?  Only you can make that decision.

I doubt that you will be able to find everything that you want under one roof.
Personally, I am quite happy with the barn I am at. I tryust the owners/managers
implicitly.  However, they don't meet your minimum requirements in some respects.
The thing that matters to me is that my horse is happy, and so are all of the 
others there.  If I go on vacation for 3 weeks I don't worry.  I know they have
'adopted' him for the time I'm gone.  However, my trainer is not there.  She 
comes on a weekly basis.  

I have found that part of what I enjoy about having a horse is being able to 
teach it something myself.  So, I have a lesson once a week, and then for the
rest of the time, we do our 'homework'.  Maybe this would work with your horse.
Youngsters have short attention spans. Maybe you could get a trainer who would
help YOU start your horse.  If you really have as much experience as you say
in your other notes in this conference, I don't see why you can't start this
youngster yourself, or at least get him started with someone else pointing
you in the right direction.  For example, instructor starts teaching horse to 
long-line on lesson 1. Until lesson 2, you work on everything you learned in
lesson 1 until it's old hat.  After lesson 2, you add a little more. And so on.
However, this method also gives you the satisfaction that YOU have done most
of the instruction.  Since youngsters don't have long attention spans, you 
don't have to spend a lot of time each day with them.  Just so long as it's 
quality. This is part of the responsibility of having a youngster.  You don't 
want the 'extra effort' of doing this?  don't buy a baby.  However, since you
already have the youngster, you have to work with what you have, and make the 
best of what may not be an ideal situation.

As a side issue - horses in the wild manage to cope with amazingly less than
what our pampered critters have. Horses do learn to cope with their environment.
Most of them learn to do so amazingly quickly. My horse lived outside 12 months
a year for 5 1/2 years in NORTH DAKOTA (not warm in the winter).  Now he goes 
out for a couple hours a day, in a paddock. But, he's FAT. He obviously doesn't 
NEED the grass.  Yeah, it's a nice to have, and I would like to have it for him,
but the point is, he's surviving QUITE WELL without it.  Yes, there are herd 
manners that it would be nice for your youngster to learn, but with herd manners,
you take the risk of bites, kicks, and all the other uglies that can come with 
herd turnout (herd being >1).  If you don't want to deal with the consequences 
of herd turn-out, then YOU need to be your horse's herd, and teach him those 
manners.  If it's just for companionship that you want your horse turned out 
with another, then how about if they can at least SEE each other.  Is that
acceptable.

Like I said before, it's up to you to figure out exactly what your priorities 
are and where you're willing to bend a little.  If you're not willing to bend, 
I sure am not going to hand out any recommendations very fast.

The gist of this dissertation is that I think you should try to solve the 2 
problems independently, and not just look for a single solution.  You also may
need to be flexible.  Let's be adults and look at the real world, if the ideal
one doesn't seem to exist. 

I'll crawl back into my hole now.....

    Many thanks to the people who have contacted me off-line and made
    trainer recommendations.  I am in the process of contacting,
    interviewing and meeting with them.  As I've mentioned to some trainers 
    that I've met with already, I realize that there are pros and cons 
    everywhere.  I'm just looking for cons I can live with.  
    
    re: last
    
    You're welcome to keep your recommendations to yourself.  I'm glad
    you've found people that you can trust not to ruin your horse.  I
    haven't been so fortunate.  No need to control yourself, either. 
    You're welcome to let it all hang out.  I'll just hit next unseen.
                                             

   
  >  haven't been so fortunate.  No need to control yourself, either. 
  >  You're welcome to let it all hang out.  I'll just hit next unseen.
   
  I'm sure the .8 meant no personal offense, I for one did not read her
  reply that way. And I am sure that all of you realize that there IS
  a need to control yourselves in spite of the readers 'next unseen'
  option. This is a Digital conference and the policies and procedures
  require me to set/hidden anything that could be offensive, yet I do
  not feel that .8 warrants that action. In any conference, please
  remember that a basic theory in DEC is "valuing differences". With
  that in mind, please feel free to continue expressing your opinions
  on this topic here. Thanks!
                                          

    re:  last 
    
    Maybe I overreacted.  I'm feeling defensive because I keep asking 
    myself a lot of those questions.  I had to look back over the 
    last year to remember.
    
    I started to break him myself. I did groundwork in November, December
    and January.  I sat on his back a couple times in January.  On 1/30 I
    totalled my car, was without transportation for a month and was in a 
    cast for 6 weeks.  I had been unhappy with the situation at the stable
    and had been planning on spending Feburary and March looking for a new
    place, but was unable due to the accident.  (I hadn't complained about 
    the problems because the owner seemed very unstable...I was just biding 
    my time until the driveway was passable so I could get out).  When I 
    returned from my car accident, things deteriorated rapidly.  This is the 
    owner that changed my horse's diet drastically after we had agreed on a 
    diet.  When I asked her why, she refused to answer.  I honestly wanted to 
    understand, since I respected her 30 years experience with arabs (he's 
    my 1st arab).  When I kept asking her to explain, she physically threw me 
    out.  I was concerned that she had changed my horses grain from almost 
    entirely pellets to almost entirely sweet feed.  I also felt I couldn't 
    stay at a place where the owner resolved her problems through violence.  
    On the advice of the local police, I removed my horse with police escort 
    the next day. 
    
    The new place was not my first choice, but the best I could do in the
    circumstances.  On April 1, he tied up.  We then had a series of
    turnout injuries.  In total, he was laid up for 2 months. I did various
    wrapping, soaking, rubbing and handwalking chores on my way to and from 
    work each day.  I also had a few nights waiting for him to pass manure.  
    And the infamous 11pm bath when he had allergic reaction to skin-so-soft 
    fly mix.
    
    At the end of May, I started him back on groundwork.  A couple days
    later, I fell on hard ground and broke my index finger on my right hand. 
    Have you ever tried adjusting a halter or bridle on a young horse that 
    is snatching at flies with your index finger in a splint?  Hah!
    
    I decided that rather than waiting 3 months for my finger to heal
    before I could honestly start him up again, I would send him out on
    training for 3-4 months, get him back in the fall in time for the good
    weather.   I felt that this would give me a reprieve (I needed one. 
    Along with this, other aspects of my personal life were not going to 
    well.)
    
    Why am I reluctant to train him myself now?  Because after watching
    the current trainer week after week, I'm becoming afraid of him.  He
    doesn't really do anything, although he did go up on her once, but she
    always looks as though she's scared to death that he's about to do
    something.  Because after 3 weeks under saddle she thought he was about
    ready to start on trails, but then he had the weight loss/dehydration
    problem so we backed off for a couple weeks.  And now, after 8 weeks,
    when I asked if she'd started him on trails, she asked if I thought she
    was crazy.
    
    And because everytime I started to get him going before, one or the
    of us ended up on stall rest, and I'm starting to think that someone
    upstairs is trying to tell me something :-)
    
    Why did I buy an unbroken horse?  I can't remember, but believe me,
    I've learned my lesson!!!!!!
    
    Mary
    
    Because I'm overtired and burned out.  Because I thought I would get a
    reprieve (and some beach time) and it never happened.
    
    

    Finding a new place to board your horse is akin to finding daycare
    for your children.  At least if your children are old enough to
    talk they can tell you what is going on!
    
    I was fortunate enough when I was younger to be able to keep my
    horse at home so I never had to worry about this stuff until I got
    my last horse and its no picnic!   
    
    I used personal recommendations from an acquaintance who seemed
    to be quite knowledgeable and was definitely very nice and she thought
    the place she was at was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
    I went up and looked at the place and it was functional, didn't
    look like Southfork but had good fencing I knew that the owner was
    responsible and knowledgeable and was easygoing and nice to get
    along with so I moved my horse there.   After I got there there
    was a few minor "misrepresentations" but I adapted to them because
    I was rough boarding and I didn't want to start all over again.
    
    Not to tell you the whole story but I too had a problem with just
    topping off the water (I mean that is disgusting just pouring water
    over the top of dirty water) it took me about 2 weeks to figure
    that one out.   Since I buy my own feed I never looked at their's
    until they got a huge load and I'm not joking when I say a rabbit
    would turn up its nose at it.   No one else seemed to notice so
    I figured I must be too picky.  I didn't want my horse out with the herd
    of about 12-15 horses on 2 acres so I made other arrangements with
    other rough boarders to turn out our horses together.   Probably
    the best thing was when I went out into a smaller paddock that I
    normally didn't turn my horse out in and saw a few nails and bent
    down and picked them up and then found 1/2 of a water bucket full
    of one axe head, one hinge, several pieces of 2 feet long steel
    cables, hundreds of nails, staples, glass you name it, it was out
    there.  I actually had to get a bucket and it filled half of the
    bucket with all my treasure.  It got too dark so I had to stop.
    I asked the manager what the H*(L all that stuff was and he replied
    "oh we burned a lot of old things out there"!!!  No one, but no
    one had ever even gone out there and picked anything up or even
    looked.  I couldn't believe it, there were at least 20 other boarders
    and none of them even ever went out there.  
    
    The bottom line is I don't see any reason for someone paying
    $400.00 a month board not to demand clean water, good feed, plenty of
    turn out space and time and a clean stall.
                             
    As you can see, my friend who recommended this place for me obviously
    thought she was getting a marvy deal (nails, dirty/no water, terrible
    hay, lousy turn out, etc.)!
    
    KJ
    

    re: last  Just for curiousity's sake, how old is your horse? Could it
    be that he would benifit from going back where you were a year ago and
    starting again from there? All this moving around, different places,
    people and horses, could have the little guy in no condition to learn
    anything. A secure environment, with consistant handling by the same
    people, does far more to create an environment for learning. A
    confident well trained horse is the result of years of careful
    handling. Only you know exactly what job you want him for, which makes
    you the most qualified trainer for him. I don't trust my "kids"
    schooling to anyone else, because I don't want to live with their
    mistakes. I also take lessons on school horses to keep myself up to par
    as a teacher.
    Sandy
    

    WOW - After reading this I'm happy about the care Jasper's getting!
    I went through a similar situation (not about training since I train
    him myself - or attempt to) concerning a "safe" stable. I think that
    has to be the #1 priority. I had him at a place for just under 2years.
    It was REALLY close to my house (I could ride Jasper to my house in
    5 minutes) and had an indoor ring. However the paddock was the pits
    and , as time went on, the stable was a fire trap (or extremely wet
    depending upon if it rained).
    I kept on hearing about the "planned" improvements but never saw them.
    Talk about lack of shavings! Ha - I used to get talked to about the 
    extra shavings I would put in Jasper's stall. It was pathatic.
    However, it does take time and effort to look for a new place so,....
    
    The last straw was that the paddock fencing had been coming down for 6
    months - they knew about it. They kept on saying that the wood delivery
    was late - you know the excuses.
    Well, When I discovered that another section of fencing was just about
    to give way, I threw a fit. I told them that I was taking him out of
    the barn and that I wasn't going to give them a month's notice since
    they hadn't been doing anything to correct the fencing problem. They
    threatened a lawsuit but rescinded (told me to get out) when they
    realized that everyone in the barn was listening to me recite all the
    stable's problems.
    
    I now have Jasper at a barn that meets my requirements. I'm realistic.
    I would love to have a huge grassy field for him but I also can't
    pay $400 for that privilege (I'm not sure those barns provide it
    either!). However, I trust Linda (the owner) to take good care of
    Jasper (and he's had his share of problems). The owners really try
    their best. They don't have alot of money but they work hard. 
    I feel that as a horse owner I wasn't going to find the "prefect"
    place simply because I don't have the money unless I could buy a farm.
    Hence I had to compromise on certain aspects.
    
    By the way, I know of a very good trainer based in the Worcester area
    who works wonders on problem horses. She used to teach Jasper and me
    prior to my move upcountry. I don't know how far Bonnie will travel
    but if anyone's interested, I could get her phone # for her. She used
    to be the head instructor for Eagle Rock (down in Grafton) prior to
    it being sold for condos (HA!).
    She's been training my friend Cheryl's horse and let me tell you the
    stories that I heard from Cheryl concerning her horse. Bonnie
    definitely doesn't put up with anything. She would deliberately force
    Goldie into her temper tantrums(basically by making Goldie do something
    she didn't want to do) in order to then train her that it was an
    unacceptable behavior. Thank heavens for Jasper's good temper (most of
    the times!)
    
    GOOD LUCK!! It's difficult out there to find a good stable. I do agree
    with .8 that people need to make a list of priorities because it is
    difficult to find a place that has everything that you want. 
    			Cindy
    

    Sandy,
    
    He's 5.  His training was delayed by his breeders because they got a
    divorce.  After he hung around for over a year, I bought him.  The rest
    is history ;-)
     
    Backing his training up is definitely out...I suspect one of his 
    problems is that he's bored with groundwork and getting bored walking 
    around a ring.  He's a tough horse because he's so intelligent that he
    understands faster than his body can keep up with and faster than his
    confidence in himself can develop.  I agree with what you say about 
    moving him around so much.  That is why I didn't move him out after the 
    weight loss/dehydration/colic last August and that is one of my primary 
    considerations with my current decision.  On the other hand, being
    handled by other people has in many ways been a valuable experience for 
    him.  
    
    In my note asking for trainer references I mentioned that I had made no 
    final decision yet and that what happens in the next few weeks would be 
    the deciding factor.  In case people who gave me references are concerned, 
    I am telling prospective trainers up front that I have made no final 
    decision to change trainers, that I have mixed feelings where he is now 
    and am checking into alteratives.  One trainer asked me to call her back
    after I've made a decision one way or the other.  Others have
    encouraged me to come out and visit anyway.  Either way is fine with
    me.  I recognize that their time is valuable.
    Mary

I started writing this when there was only one reply, so it doesn't
take into account any intervening replies.
(It takes me a long time to phrase my thoughts carefully enough
before I'm comfortable exposing them to public view!)

Moderator: I'm glad a new note was created to accomodate the discussion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm writing because I want to validate both your observations
and your feelings.
(Have you ever noticed that people are reluctant to support/help
someone who expresses anger?  Most people either avoid you or
fight you.)

I've had similar bad experiences, but in another area:  finding
a truly good riding instructor for myself.  I've had absolute
nightmares with incompetent instructors who blithely put me
in physically dangerous situations.  (This was when I was too shy
and unassertive to protect myself.)

There are a tremendous number of untalented, ineffective 
professionals out there!  People who probably really want to be good,
but they themselves never found a good trainer to train THEM.

My advice is:
Do screen for a new trainer carefully.  
Do listen to your intuition about the type of person you're evaluating.

There's no point in confronting the incompetent people with 
hostility.  No amount of force can make them produce something 
they don't know how to produce.  Just keep looking.
Learn from your experience - now that you have hindsight,
were there any tip-offs that could have forewarned you
that these trainers were ineffective?  Look for those same
traits now and AVOID giving your business to people who display
those traits.  They're not good for you or your horse.  That's what pain
and anger are for - to teach you where to go and where not
to go.   The ineffective professionals will take your
money as eagerly as the effective ones, if you're willing
to hand it to them.  And, yes, the good ones CAN BE hard to
find when you don't know where to look.

Anyway, there is hope - usually I tend to get breakthroughs
in solving big problems just about the time I'm ready to give up - 
or HAVE already given up.  

Let me tell you a little of my life story:
I have taken lessons from at least 15 instructors since 1973, and only in the
last year has my riding really improved.  There were times when
I had to face the possibility that I'd NEVER be able to ride 
the way I wanted (dressage).  I thought maybe I'd have to settle 
for walking horses, paso finos, or harness.  I was prepared for the 
possibility that I might NEVER canter in my lifetime.  I thought
maybe I should get involved in riding for the handicapped (because
I felt so handicapped and uncoordinated myself).

Now I'm just starting to get what I've spent my whole life (35 years!) 
seeking.  (I now get compliments from my riding instructor.
She recently told me I have "quiet, forgiving hands."  I've waited 
a lifetime to hear that!)

But the point of telling you about my life is -
It's even OK to give up!  You're not necessarily giving up forever.
Maybe this isn't the right time for you to solve this problem.
If you're a passionate horse-lover (like I am), you might give
up on some aspect for years at a time, but you'll always try one 
more time after you've recovered from your latest disappointment.


Sorry I can't give you a specific recommendation for a trainer.
I found my present riding instructor (the really good one I've been
looking for since 1973) recommended here in the notesfile, so it is 
a good place to go for help.

re: .11

>    something.  Because after 3 weeks under saddle she thought he was about
>    ready to start on trails, but then he had the weight loss/dehydration
>    problem so we backed off for a couple weeks.  And now, after 8 weeks,
>    when I asked if she'd started him on trails, she asked if I thought she
>    was crazy.
>    
>    And because everytime I started to get him going before, one or the
>    of us ended up on stall rest, and I'm starting to think that someone
>    upstairs is trying to tell me something :-)
 

I know this may sound too psychoanalytical, but about this 
mysterious dehydration:

Suppose your trainer had an ego investment in believing she was
qualified to be a professional, and reality was proving otherwise
(the horse was not progressing; she didn't want to admit to you
or herself that she was afraid of the horse), wouldn't it be
*convenient* for the horse to become sick or unsound?  
Subconsciously she may have wanted/allowed the horse to get sick 
so she'd have an excuse for the horse's lack of progress, 
and not have to face your anger.

I don't think "someone upstairs" was trying to tell you something,
I think the trainer herself was "talking" in the only way she could.
Because you have been too stressed out with other problems, you
couldn't offer her ego an easy way out - like saying "Thanks for 
your efforts" and getting your horse out of there before more 
damage could be done!

Please do give yourself that rest that you need.  Maybe even 
sell or lease your horse out for a while.  Take care of yourself
now and you'll have more fun with horses in the long run.
Your own injuries may be trying to tell you something too!
(As you've already suspected.)

    re: last
    
    I agree that there is some ego investment with this trainer, for reasons 
    that I haven't posted and don't wish to go into.  However, the dehydration 
    was no mystery.  I had noticed early on that his water buckets weren't
    being cleaned, but because it was a new working student I wanted to
    give them a chance to sort things out.
    
    My heart tells me to bring him close to home and have a trainer work
    with me and him several times/week.  I will be calling one trainer in
    mind to set up an appointment this weekend, so this will depend
    partially on how I feel after seeing the facility, meeting the trainer
    and seeing videos of her tb that she broke last year.  I would like to
    get on a horse that she's broken, but she's a free-lancer and hers is
    the only one that would be possible.  Unfortunately, he's out of
    commission at the moment.  Also, this is quite expensive and between
    Algiers' and my vet bills and buying a car after the accident, my
    wallet is really feeling the strain.
    
    My head says send him to two trainers that I am meeting Saturday
    morning.  The wife has been short-listed for the olympics twice, they
    are old-timers with established reputations, are good friends with two
    top trainers that I've worked with.  Algiers would be further away
    (70+miles) so it would be harder for me to visit and spend time with
    him and frankly, when I think about this I start to cry.  But he would
    be in the best of hands and I think it may actually be easier on my
    wallet.
    
    As always, its a balancing act of my immediate needs, my long
    term goals, short term best for Algiers and long term best for Algiers.
    I may take a day and get away from it all to help give me the emotional
    distance I need to make final decision.  What's tough is feeling that 
    whatever decision I make, I'm stuck with it till spring, cause I won't 
    move a horse in December, January or February if I can possibly help it.  
    At least this time its not an emergency decision!!!
    
    Mary

re: last

Mary,

You are faced with a hard choice.  But you'll know you made the best
decision you could, given the circumstances.  

A year ago I felt like I was going to explode if I had
to wait any longer to have a horse of my own again!  I inquired 
about a horse posted for sale here in the notesfile, but
just couldn't quite bring myself to make the commitment.
Yet it made me really angry and frustrated to deprive myself for 
a while longer.  Anyway, I found a horse to half-lease instead, 
and it has worked out VERY well.  BETTER for me than owning a 
horse would have, I must admit.
I still want my own horse some day, but for now I'm satisfied
because I know I'm still learning and progressing toward that day.

So, without meaning to be trite, sometimes things that are
painful in the short term DO actually turn out for the best in
the long run.

I would like to know what you decide, and how it
turns out in the long run.  I'd encourage you to put
some follow-up replies to this note.

Good luck.

Michelle

P.S.  I wonder what alternative activites you could do over the 
winter to temporarily fill the gap left by your horse's absence?

    One activity that I'm looking into is what I should have done rather
    than buy a horse last year (better late than never)...a  part-time 
    lease to get me back in the saddle and having fun.  I'm meeting with 
    someone on Friday who has a retired event horse for on-farm lease on 
    a monthly basis.  My "plan" is to start with an old retiree to build 
    up my strength, spirits and confidence, while my guy is with a trainer
    getting the major problems fixed and some mileage.  The idea is to get
    us both to a point where we won't feed off each others lack of
    confidence and also get me to a point that if he zigs I'll be quick and
    strong enough to zig with him.
    
    All other filler activities have to be free.
    
    Mary

                                                     
    re: cost of 'premium' boarding...
    
    Many of the replies discuss how much care one should expect for a certain
    amount of money, usually $300-400 per month.  The assumption being that
    this is a great deal of money for boarding.  While I agree that anyone
    who undertakes the operation of a boarding facility is responsible for
    all reasonable needs such as clean water and bedding, protection from
    other horses, etc., I am also willing to look at a boarding arrangment
    from the barn operator's perspective and I come up with the following:
    
    For good full board, time for feeding, mucking out, watering, walking
    to and from turnout area, checking up (whether in stall or not), etc.
    for each horse comes to 20-30 minutes per day, 30 days per month.  At
    $10 to $15 per hour (I know, generous, but that's me), that $150-225
    per month just for a person to do the basic work.
    
    Add another day's work, per horse, for barn-wide activities:  shoeing,
    vetting, stacking bales, reordering supplies, cleaning the barn (this
    is a hypothetical, after all), and so on... $80-$120 per month per
    horse.
    
    Add human operational overhead such as a barn manager, someone to haul
    the shavings away, etc.  $100 per month per horse.
    
    Add profit for the barn owner (welcome to Fantasy Island).  Another
    $100 per month per horse.
    
    Then add service costs:  electricity, water, heating oil, *insurance*,
    mortgage.  Cost:  sky's the limit.
    
    Finally, lesson and training costs.  With all of this considered,
    anyone who's paying less that $1000/month is getting a bargain.  What I
    conclude from this is that, even in New England, it's a buyer's market
    and boarding fees do not really reflect the true cost of 'materials'. 
    This $1000/month is what you'd expect to pay at Acres Wild *just to
    walk in the door*.  And, believe it or not, Paul Valliere doesn't make
    that much money on the place.  So what's happening locally is that barn
    owners are keeping their margins by special means:  the barn's been in
    the family for eight generations, 10-year old employees who look over
    16, midnight shaving dumps, having too few employees to do the work
    needed, and so on.
    
    Compare this to another sport that I enjoy (infrequently) that requires
    boarding, training, and lessons:  big game hunting.  Premium, in this
    case, means Africa where basic board and care (for one's self) is
    $500-1000 per day for a ten or fourteen day minimum.  Plus airfare,
    tips, cost of rifles ($5000-$100,000), license and trophy fees (up to
    $30,000 for a *single* animal).
    
    The rule is:  If it's fun, it's expensive.
    
    Just another point of view...
    
    						Monty

    
    		There hasn't been any activity here lately, but
    	the title suits my problem, sooo....
    
    		I am boarding my horse 5 min from my home, which is
    	wonderful for me. There are plenty of trails, tons of turnout,
    	riding ring area, no limitations of when I can/can't show up,
    	etc. So here's the problem - they don't believe me about how
    	much to feed him!! I have even consulted with my vet, and she
    	agrees with what I feel he should be getting. He is a Tennessee
    	Walking Horse, which are VERY easy keepers, and only needs one
    	coffee can of Trotter twice a day, with suitable hay and grazing.
    	I have told them this a couple of time, blatantly asked them
    	just how much they were feeding him, etc - only to show up at
    	feeding time and find 1.5 to 2 cans worth, even with sweet feed
    	mixed in!!! He gets ridden approx 4+ times a week, and I am
    	sure he could use more, but the point is HE IS FAT!! 
    
    	So, how do I get these people to STOP stuffing his face? They
    	feed him carrots/apples, too. I know they think they're being
    	kind, but it is obvious that he is overweight, and I am very
    	concerned about founder...I don't want to move him, so that's
    	not really an option. I guess I could get one of those little	
    	feed buckets and mark it as to what he should get, but they
    	do already know how much so that would probably not help. Any
    	ideas???
    
    	Sherry
    

    Your concerns about founder are valid.  I've reached a point where I
    give my instructions and if someone questions me, I explain the reasons 
    for them.  If the stable management has good reasons for thinking I'm 
    wrong, I'm open to discussion because they could be right.  But my 
    decision is the final one.  If they persist in ignoring my instructions, 
    I ask them if they want to be held responsible if such and such happens, 
    because I will hold them responsible.  At some point you may want to 
    give the instructions in writing, keeping a copy for yourself so you can 
    prove you gave specific instructions.
          

    What about asking the vet to give them a call, or a visit, to explain
    to them the situation, the dangers of foundering, etc?? 

    
    
    
    	I am looking for someone to train my tennesse walker how to pull a 
    	buggy.. I am also looking for someone who can train me how to use
    	her in the ring in a two wheel class.. 
    
    	If anyone has any recommendation please send them to me or write
    	them in here.
    
    	Donna

    Donna,
    
    I know Elsie Rodney does alot of driving and training out in
    Weston...... She is listed in Weston, and works hard at the
    Weston Carriage days and various rally's out there.  (I photgraph
    their shows.)  Try her...... 
    
    Nancy