Conference noted::equitation

    
    
    	Karen, my vet Lori Tampowski was talking to us about this
    	recently and I think she said it hadn't been tested thoroughly
    	yet...I'd be interested to hear what the manufacturer has 
    	to tell you.
    
    	Sherry
    

    I too use Lori, and I would trust her judgement totally.
    
    I would wonder if eventually the worms would build a tolerance to this
    constant medication.  Also let's not forget that it is a drug and it
    will effect the host, the horse!  A negative worm count can be
    achieved, it takes stringent adherence to worming schedules and good
    pasture maintenance.  Lori has my gelding on a double dose of
    Strongid-T in August to combat tape worms.  I don't like to tube worm,
    but Lori felt that it was necessary only in that in the event of a
    colic emergency the horse would be used to the tube and not cause undo
    panic and stress.  Today's wormers are otherwise sufficient to keep
    worms under control.
    
    stephanie
    

    
    	Well, it's been two years since we talked about this, and
    	we're putting our horses in Strongid-C next month. I have
    	spoken to two vets about it and read several articles (EQUUS	
    	ran one last month...). Strongid-C is fed from spring to fall, 	
    	and is in a palatable alfalfa base which the horses like. At
    	the beginning of the program, it is suggested to use a double
    	paste of ivermectin to remove tapeworms, and then use a boticide
    	in the late fall. Some horse owners have reported up to a 30%
    	decrease in required grain, which could make up for the approx
    	$15/month for Strongid-C, rather than $15/2-3 months for pastes.
    
    	If anyone would like a copy of the article I have, send me mail.
    	It's not from EQUUS, I just looked and it's out of Gaitways.
    
    	Sherry
    

    You saved me the trouble of finding this note.
    
    Our barn switched to Strongid-C last April.  They were pasted only
    once or twice this fall/winter.  Last week we had fecals done -- all 
    the horses came out clean.  (FYI, all the horses had come out clean 
    before the Strongid-C as well).
    
    I will probably stay with it.  It minimizes "down-time" due to a day or
    two off for worming and I think also decreases the chances of colic. 
    It is a bit more expensive though -- about $17.50/month for ~6 months
    plus two more paste wormings in the winter.
    
    Mary

    
    	Mary, a clean fecal generally means that it falls within
    	allowable amounts of larva present, when using a regular
    	paste worming schedule. On Strongid-C, the fecal could 
    	possibly come out completely (I hate to say 100%) clean, 
    	provided you also pick up your pasture, etc. 
    
    	The way it was explained to me, and I'm not going to get too
    	technical here, some worms are hard to dose for because they
    	encyst in the stomach/intestine wall. Even though the paste
    	will kill whatever is in the horse's system, if cysts release
    	the next day OR your horse is turned out with another that is
    	not on the same schedule, you have basically accomplished 
    	freeing your horse of worms for about a day. 
    

    When Sherry reactivated this note, I decided to re-read the original
    notes. Have the questions of safety & effectiveness been answered? Are
    there side-effects to the horse from long-term use of toxins on a daily
    basis? After all, the de-wormers are poisons and they have to be
    eliminated by the horse's kidneys & liver. What's the effect of
    long-term use on the horse's kidneys & liver?
    
    Mary raised a point that I would be interested in hearing more about. 
    After de-worming with  liquid/paste/tubing , horses are sometimes
    "punky" and lethargic for a day or two. Does that happen with the
    smaller doses used for continuous feed-through-wormers?
    
    Another thing, you are in the frozen north land. What about areas that
    don't get significant amounts of cold weather? Do horses in those areas
    need it 365 days a year? My guess is yes. $$$$$$$
    
    What I was thinking about is adapting a strategy mentioned in an EQUUS
    article. Take fecal samples after paste worming to determine how
    quickly worm levels were building back up in the herd. According to
    studies that EQUUS reported that 1 out of 5 to as many as 1 out of 3
    horses are "heavy shedders" and get re-infested quickly. 
    
    Once I had identified the "heavy shedders" in our herd, I'd put them on
    the daily year-round. I'd probably keep the others on a less frequent
    schedule to keep things cost effective. I can de-worm w/ ivermectin
    every other month for $8-$9 per worming and use liquid Strongid-T
    for $5 per worming in between. Yes, I know that's monthly! The
    recommended interval is 4-6 weeks in this climate! Might be able to cut
    that down to every 2 months and use fecals to make sure things were
    under control.
    
    BTW, several veterinarians have told me they don't put much faith in
    "clean" fecal samples. Their opinion is that a clean fecal just means 
    you don't have a MAJOR problem. As Sherry pointed out, there are several 
    stages of the parasites life that are not only hard to dose against but 
    they are also "invisible" to the fecal exam!
    
    Let me know how this works out. I'd love to hear success stories about the 
    Strongid-C daily. Especially, if there are no horror stories like we used 
    to get with some of the old wormers. Fortunately, ivermectin made most of 
    those old "nerve gas" related de-wormers obsolete!!!
    
    John

    John,
    
    I don't remember Algiers being lethargic at all, except on hot, humid
    days.  The amount of toxin in the daily wormer is supposed to be really 
    small -- part of the reason the farm switched over is because supposedly 
    it uses smaller amounts of toxins overall and therefore releases less 
    toxins into the environment.   According to the barn vet (Paula Orcutt), 
    there are horses that have been on it for more than 5 years (I think she 
    said its been on the market for about 10).  They weren't able to cite 
    any specific studies, though.
    
    Mary

    I asked our vet about his experiences with STRONGID C and his current
    recommendations for its use. He said that he's had very good experience
    with it but that he doesn't recommend it for all horses because of the
    cost.
    
    In the Seattle(or any mild)climate, STRONGID C has to be fed year-round. 
    Therefore, it's very expensive as the cost is nearly $0.60 per day per 
    horse. If you also have to use ivermectin once or twice for bots, etc the 
    total would be about $240 per year per horse. So, he recommends a 
    practical compromise: use STRONGID C for young growing horses, adult 
    horses that have chronic worm infestations which cause diarrhea or other 
    symptoms and horses which are in very high density/use turnout situations. 
    
    What our vet recommends for adult horses with no symptoms like diarrhea
    and less crowded turnout is deworming every other month unless fecal 
    studies show a build up within 1 month. Then, he recommends monthly 
    deworming.
    
    It's very cost effective(compared to STRONGID C) to de-worm 
    aggressively(monthly) with a rotation of drugs(i.e. ivermectin, 
    strongid-t(liquid) and oxibendazole) at a cost of $90-$100 per year per 
    horse. Since ivermectin and oxibendazole are both extremely effective 
    against the migrating larval forms of worms(which are in the bloodstream) 
    and the life cycle of the worm in the gut is about 4 weeks, an
    aggressive de-worming schedule which includes those drugs should be
    very effective keeping worms under control.
    
    In fact, we skipped the fecal studies and assume that they have worms
    based on what several veterinarians have told us about the lack of
    effectiveness with fecals. Besides, our vet charges more for fecals
    than he does for Strongid-T liquid! So, it's even cheaper to worm
    monthly than using ivermectin(w/o rotation) every 2 months and doing
    fecal studies  a month after worming. I also KNOW they are fairly clear 
    of worms. The only drawback to de-worming monthly is that some drugs
    make some horses a little punky the day after de-worming. SO, don't do
    it the day before the big show!
    
    John

    My vets (Mass Equine) are using Strongid as a wormer. It as added
    daily to the horses feed. Since everyone in the barn (CourseBrook
    in Sherborn) uses it we have been too since January. I am always weary
    about new medical inventions. Has anyone heard anythong about this
    treatment: good or bad?
    
    Thanks, Ania

    It's in common use in the UK, has been for years. My livery stable
    uses it (amongst others, they rotate several brands). Not daily,
    though... I've not heard of horses being wormed *quite* that
    regularly ;-)
    
    JJ.
    

    re: .9
    
    I'm surprised they started back in January.  We're doing it only from
    spring until 1st good frost in the fall.  However, we start off with a
    double-dose of strongid paste wormer to clean out everything, then
    follow up with the strongid-C.
    
    re: .10
    
    You're probably thinking of strongid-B -- the paste wormer.  Strongid-C
    is the same wormer, but is a powder given in *much* smaller doses on a
    daily basis.  The idea is that a certain worm burrows into the intestinal
    lining where wormer doesn't reach them.  If you don't get them before
    they've burrowed in, its too late.  Paste wormer is only in the system,
    and therefore effective against these worms, for a few days after
    you've given it.  For the rest of the time, the horse still has worms.
    
    Personally, I think it may be overkill and I'm still concerned about the
    effects of worming daily on the liver, kidneys, etc. -- after all, this 
    is a poison...
                                                                  
    Mary

    re .11
    >I'm surprised they started back in January. 
    Maybe the frost line is different. Out here in WA, the people who use
    Strongid-C have to use it 365 days a year because we don't get severe
    enough weather in winter to kill the worm larvae in pastures. We do get
    enough frost, ice and snow to be a bloody nuisance but not enough to do
    us any good!
    
    The Strongid-C users also have to deworm twice for bots again because
    of the variable weather.

    re: .12
    
    Sherborn, MA is not that far south, and only a little west, of where I
    am (maybe 10 miles south, 15-20 miles west, as crow flies, very rough
    estimate).  Temperature-wise I think they're about the same.  Actually, 
    I'm wondering if we had some warmer weather in January?
    
    Mary