Conference noted::equitation

    
    	First of all, confront the trainer. Set up a meeting with
    	him to discuss your horse's `progress'. You are paying him
    	to fulfill a contract, you have every right to question what 
    	is being done with your horse. 
    
    	If that does not work out to your satisfaction, start 
    	looking for a temporary board, maybe someone who horse-sits
    	at their home, it would be worth the extra expense for you if
    	it gets to that point. 
    
    	How do the other horses in the barn look? Do you know anyone
    	else who is or has had thier horse there that you can compare
    	notes with??
    

    
    Definitely arrange a meeting with the trainer.  Have him show you
    exactly what rations the horse is supposedly being fed.  Have that
    person show you the schedule for the horse's training. (Most reputable
    trainers have some kind of schedule -- or training plan.)
    
    A horse being plump has little or nothing to do with it 'being able to 
    lift its back'.  Sorry folks, thats a function of correct muscling. 
    And if the horse is just starting under saddle it won't have that
    correct muscling right away.  It takes months of good solid walking.
    
    If this horse is not being fed correctly, the trainer is in effect
    breaking the contract with the owner.  
    
    You need to make your expectations very clearly known to the trainer. 
    And back it up in writing.  But do something before your horse is
    victimized.
    

    It seems to me that all this trainer is interested in is the money
    and not the welfare of your horse, who in their right mind would
    starve a young horse like that? 
    
    You say this "Trainer" has a reputation, a reputation in ruining
    young horses?                               
    
    I would suggest you move your horse NOW! before he deteriorates
    much more.
                 
    Good luck                  

    
    The more I think about it -- 
    
    Do you have pictures of the horse before going to the trainer's?  
    Go take pictures of him now (in case you need them later).  Make sure
    they clearly show his condition.
    
    I get a lot hot when I hear about stuff like this.  About two years ago
    a friend bought a gorgeous thoroughbred who was not fit whatsoever.  
    
    Anyway, he wasn't fed correctly.  And he wasn't worked correctly.  (The
    trainer tried to force him into heavy work immediately while his
    muscles were like mush.)  They ended up crippling him.  (Severe muscle
    and tendon and bone damage due to excessive work on a totally
    unconditioned horse.)

    I have pictures of him from a couple weeks ago and I'm going to
    get more.  I don't have any from immediately prior to his going
    there, but I have some from this winter and also from a couple
    years ago.
    
    I confronted the trainer last night on the phone.  We had discussed
    his diet earlier in the day. When I got there he had a pile of hay
    in front of him and she gave him some more while I was there.  At
    this point I'm also afraid that in her panic she will colic him or
    tie him up.  Anyway, on the phone I told her she was not to get on
    his back for the next few weeks.  I said that she could do light
    groundwork this week and that he should be turned out.  I told her
    that I would be in touch later this week.
    
    I wanted to be very careful not to get into any battles just yet.
    They will be on my terms and when I choose.  I am currently looking
    into a rough board situation near where I live.  If I can rent a
    stall for a couple months, then I will be ready to remove my horse 
    immediately.
    
    I plan to give her a choice--either I totally control his diet and
    his training or he leaves immediately.  If she wants to fight about
    the contract, we can do that later in court.  But it will be her
    choice to end the contract.  With her ego, I'm sure she will not
    submit to my control of either his training or his diet.  After all, 
    I'm just the owner--I'm not a professional trainer like she is! 
    
    Mary       
    
    ps I especially loved when I asked her exactly what she had been
    feeding him and she said "One."  It was not as bad as I first feared. 
    From the description, her scoop is 2 quarts and she meant one scoop per
    feeding.  Not a quart a day.  

    Thanks to everybody for your support, and especially M_Hoepner for the
    comments about lifting his back under a rider.  It helps me to have a
    sanity and intelligence check.  This is exactly what I tried to explain 
    to the trainer last night, when I told her that he wasn't fit to carry 
    a rider.  She lectured me on respiratory and pulse rates.  As usual, 
    when confronted with total idiocy I clammed up. What's the point of 
    trying to explain the apparently foreign concept of muscle fitness to 
    an egotist who's on the defensive?
    
    My favorite part of our conversation was when she finally said that I
    seemed to be implying that my horse hadn't been getting good care and
    that he had been getting only the best of care.
    
    I replied, "Oh, ______, I know that my horse has had nothing but the
    best of care from you.  I don't know why he's so thin.  Obviously he
    has a serious problem.  That's why I'm saying I don't believe he should
    be ridden for at least a couple weeks until his strength has been built
    up!!!"
    
    Mary

    
    A trainer who hangs out his/her shingle may mean to be doing the right
    thing.  
    
    But MANY times, just because a person has had considerable success in
    show ring doesn't necessarily mean they know anything at all about
    feeding, or conditioning a youngster, or running a barn, or running a
    business for that matter.  
    
    I know a trainer who had considerable success as a junior -- won
    Medals, placed in the Medal/Maclay finals.  Now she has her own barn. 
    She is the trainer and barn manager.  Her horses are all underweight.
    Their feet are marginally cared for.  And the clipping jobs on these
    horses you would not believe.  She is considering hiring a barn 
    manager to deal with the general care of the horses.  She does do a
    great job riding.  But has never ever ever before had to be in charge
    of maintaining the day to day care.
    
    Mary Jo

    This trainer actually has not had what I would call considerable
    success in the show ring.  She has lots of experience in managing 
    barns, etc.  And things started out really good.  She was great with
    him when they picked him up--rode in the back with him all the way to
    her place.   Although her technique of adjusting diets daily based on
    how much they worked that day is new to me.
    
    What she doesn't have is what I would call any real understanding of
    training beyond rough breaking.  I find her training techniques to 
    border on abusive.  Not obvious abuse such as beating.  But things like 
    not having prepared him properly for the weight of a rider.  Trying to 
    force him to trot when he could barely walk, and then punishing him for 
    lurching forward.  Lunging him in extremely tight side reins.  She 
    actually wanted to lunge him over a small (6") obstacle that way!  
    Luckily, this was something she asked me about 1st and I told her, in 
    no uncertain terms, no jumping with side reins!  When I explained to her 
    that 1. it would be very difficult for him to get a good look at the 
    obstacle and 2. horses need the full use of their heads and necks for 
    balancing...especially if they should trip, which would be especially 
    likely 'cause he couldn't get a good look at the obstacle, she started 
    talking about everybody doing things differently. 
    
    And things like saddling.  I introduced my guy to his saddle last 
    January.  I spent weeks of slowly increasing the girth tightness, allowed 
    him to work through the initial feelings of discomfort, etc.  When I sent 
    him to her, he saddled very much like a pro...I tightened the girth just 
    a little more slowly than I would with an experienced horse.  He no 
    longer fussed or bothered.
    
    When she first got him, because he was in a new place and being handled
    by a new person, he regressed a bit.  No big surprise.  She told me she
    was taking it very slowly, tightening slowly, etc.  I watched her
    saddle him for the 1st time a couple weeks ago.  She would wait until
    he wasn't paying attention and then tug/yank it up a hole or two.  He was
    surprised each time and started fussing.  She told me she was doing
    this on purpose.  Now, for some reason, there are always to 2 people
    there when they saddle him and he fusses constantly.
    
    To be honest, I now wonder why her reputation is good.  I've only seen
    her on two other horses a couple of times.  She bred, raised and broke at
    least one of them.  They both had pissy, sour attitudes.
    
    Mary

    
    You sure she didn't come from some low class ranch in south Podunk
    Center?
    
    Mary_Jo_Who_knew_someone_like_that_once

    Is it impossible for you to "drop in" two or three times a week? If
    the trainer knows you are concerned and watching her, she would be
    more apt to do a better job. Just telling her not to ride the horse
    doesn't mean she won't. I know this won't help now, but I feel a
    trainer should be selected on the basis of their horses, not their
    reputation. If I did not enjoy riding a horse the trainer trained, I
    would not want my horse to turn out that way. It is terrible that you
    and the horse had to learn her true capabilitys the hard way.
    Sandy
    

    Visits are by appointment only.  I have always been a little suspicious
    of that practice.  From now on I'll take it as a warning.
    
    Your comment about riding horses that they've trained is a good idea. 
    Actually what I'd really like to do is someday end up with my own place
    so that I can do all my own training.  I had started to break him
    myself, but without a good facility its pretty impossible.
    
    I don't think she'll ride him against my express orders.  
    
    Mary

    
    Visits by appointment?   Wow!
    
    Kind of like a halter trainer I talked to about taking my National 
    Show Horse gelding in order to finish his halter points for his 
    Legion of Merit.  He said he would love to take the horse.  But I 
    couldn't come visit for a MONTH.  (Stormy never did finish his
    Legion of Merit, by the way...)

    Mary,
    
       If it's at all possible to move your horse, I would move him if I
    was in your situation.  I once had a horse at a trainer's (I was taking
    saddleseat lessons from her, too) which I brought home, but I didn't
    have a contract.  We came to pick the horse up to go to a show and the
    trainer came out with her head bandaged and arm in a sling and said my
    horse had done that to her.  Well, my horse is very kind and wouldn't
    hurt anyone, but she was lunging the horse with tight side reins
    connected to a curb bit with 7" shanks.  The horse really freaked out
    and flipped over on her, throwing her into the fence.  The horse was
    fine.  I had no idea she was lunging the horse with side reins on the
    curb bit before the accident.  We took the horse to the show and didn't
    take her back.  Fortunately the place where we were boarding the horse 
    before she went to the trainer had room to take her back.  Since then I 
    have been very careful when choosing a trainer for my horses (I've been
    doing most of the training since then anyways).
    
       I don't think feeding a horse based on how much work it does in a
    day is a very good idea.  It doesn't seem like she has a solid feeding
    plan at all since your horse goes from underweight to overweight and
    back.  I've always been told to change feed gradually.
    
       Good luck with whatever you decide.  I know what a difficult and
    frustrating position you're in.
    
    						Jan

    
    I'm curious.....what other than their requesting you not to would
    prevent you from stopping by without an  appointment anyway?  You
    could always smack your forehead and say "I forgot I needed
    an appointment".  
    
    Would they just not let you into the barn?  If so, I would 
    think that there would be some kind of threat you could give them
    that would make them listen.
    
    I have to say that having had experience with a dis-reputable
    trainer this is totally NO FUN!  There are so many good trainers
    with caring attitudes, and it just burns me up to think of
    paying for one that doesnt give the appropriate care.  Much less
    a trainer that takes a quiet animal and turns it sour.
    
    I sincerely hope things work out for both you and the beastie.
    
    
    Jan
    

    Hi,
    
    I really must beg of you to move your animal as soon as possible.
    I have a Morgan gelding, and he has been with a less than caring
    trainer at one point.  I was young and didn't understand that there
    was something I could do about it.  Do not turn the other way, I'm
    not sure about east coaster's, but west coast Morgan trainers are
    anything but caring for the animal.  Sure some pull many blues,
    but when you go walk up to the horses stall to take a look, this
    is the important part.  I don't know about you, but my animal is
    not only a wonderful show horse but a pet and a friend.  These animals
    are nothing more than for show.  In many there is no spirit left
    in them, they are either very shy around people or outwardly agressive.
    These are the horses that the "GREAT" west coast Morgan trainers
    have.  
    
    Where there is a will there is a way, and please get your young
    horse out of that place before some serious damage is done to either
    his mental or physical well being.  It took years of patience before
    mine was an enjoyable animal again (he was only 2 at the trainers).
    Personally, if you need an appointment to see your (key word being
    YOUR) horse, and if you have to instruct a trainer as to how to
    train YOUR horse (these people are being paid our good hard earned
    money, and had better know how to do their own job, thoroughly and
    kindly) than something is very, very, very, very, wrong with this
    picture.
    
    Kelly
    

    
    
    if he really is unweight and* you dont like him that way I would 
    pay him up to the day you take him out and tell him why you are taking 
    him out..
    
    Is this a western trainer????
    
    btw: why couldnt your horse even walk??
    
    
    I have had problems with trainers not riding my horse every day,
    and some problems with feeding but nothing major.. and a less than 
    clean stall and thats been it..
    
    anywhere that an appointment is needed i would comment on it , 
    like *you must be koking to see *my HORSE!!?? HA   , and then 
    tell them that you were looking for a trainer that is interested in
    your sucess as well as the horses..;^}
    
    a trainers nice, sometimes.. but if you cant ride him like he supposed
    to be ridden, why get a trainer to train your horse.. unless he got
    bad habits that you want to him out of.. 
    I see more poeple training /scholling their own horses they cant afford
    it plus they know their horses arent pushed wicked hard..
    	
    

    
    	Okay... I may get shot at here but need to offer a few thoughts.
    
    No doubt that as customers we all need to continue to become better
    and better customers.  We need to make sure our expectations are
    clear with our trainers, we need to make sure that our goals are
    understood (for ourselves as well as our horses that we send to any
    one).
    
    We each need to be very comfortable with the persons we intrust our
    favorite horses to... for me it's got to be JUST LIKE I WOULD TAKE
    CARE OF THEM AT HOME OR **BETTER**.  That goes for mares that are
    sent out for breeding as well as animals sent out for training.  Go
    to these places and spend a day or part of a day while horses are
    being worked... be sensitive that you're watching someone elses
    horse which you may/probably know nothing about.  Be more concerned
    with tools, techniques, mannerisms, voice decibles, cleanliness of
    the facility, consistancy, and how the other horses act - in their
    stalls - on cross ties - while they're being readied - while they're
    being worked.  If we see things we don't like - keep it in mind
    when we're making the final decision about where we're sending our
    best friend.
    
    When a trainer requests owners showing up "By Appointment Only" it
    is *usually* (now I know I'm treading closely on lots of variables
    dependant of each situation) because the trainer likes/wants to be
    able to manage their daily schedule - AND give you the personal
    attention you would like to have when visiting - so that you can
    really see the current status of your horse.  If you show up when
    another customer has scheduled time - and that customer flew in and
    is flying out on a schedule - no doubt the trainer would like to give
    that customer their undivided attention while they're there.  Just like
    you want it when you're there.  If you show up while another horse is
    being worked and the trainer needs to finish with that horse in order
    to give it quality time - then it won't make sence for the trainer to
    stop in the middle of what they are doing....  
    
    NOW**  If we're just talking that you want to stop and give the big
    lug a pat on the nose and a carrot (and that is understood) then it
    would seem ridiculous for any trainer NOT to let you spend time with
    your horse.  For sure.
    
    There was a previous note that felt like every Morgan trainer on the
    West Coast was dog meat.....  I always feel defensive when I read
    notes like that ... not that the persons horse was not treated
    professionally or appropriately... not that the person isn't absolutly
    correct in their perspective.  But this sounded like one horse, and
    one trainer.  Putting all of them in one bucket seems unfair.... and
    it seems to give all Morgan trainers a bad name.  Come on, if you want
    names of GREAT Morgan trainers with many many many many totally
    thrilled amature owners who take their horses home in the off season
    give me a call...
    
    So, Holly - get to the bottom line.  For me in this case I'd be loading
    my horse in the trailer, paying the bill to date, and heading someplace
    else just a soon as I possibly could.  And, I would be asking the
    (person who called themselves a trainer) to not handle my horse as I
    will be removing him/her from the premises.  I'd look at this as a
    learning experience - and KNOW that there are some very professional,
    excellent folks out there who would love to have your horse and your
    business.
    
    Sorry to rattle on but this note really hit a spot for me.  I've had
    my own personal experiences, and learned from others.... just remember
    that some of the greatest showmen(women) are not trainers... and some
    of the best trainers are not the greatest businessmen(women).  Finding
    the right combination for you and your horse is work, and time 
    consuming......  but worth every penny and every  hour invested.

    
    
    	After reading .17, I *can* rememeber overhearing my Morgan's
    	trainer saying `...and she just SHOWED up and expected me to
    	give her a lesson, and I had eleven horses to work today!! I
    	hate when a customer does that...'. So I can agree that some
    	trainers need to stick to their schedule. It sounds like your
    	trainer may be trying to do too much on her own too soon. She
    	is probably trying to build up a business and taking more horses
    	than she can handle just to make ends meet...Keep looking for 
    	somewhere to place your horse, this trainer is not right for
    	you or your horse.
     

I think a few people have commented on this already but if you are unhappy
with the horse's progress/the trainer's methods and you feel that you have
tried to rationally work with the trainer to improve the situation but still
do not feel satisfied that things are going as you want them to, then you 
probably want to get your horse out of there.

Money and finding a stall aside, as with kids, "these are the wonder years" and
problems which are created now will take much longer to undo than teaching them
correctly from the start. From the sounds of it, you'll already have to deal
with re-teaching him to be quiet, calm and *trusting*, never mind how to walk, 
trot, canter, etc. 

Good luck; conflict situations are always hard....

Linda

    Thanks, again, to everybody for their suggestions and comments.  Many
    of them mirrored my own feelings, others added some ideas that I hadn't
    thought.
    
    I'm planning on removing him by the end of the month.  The main repair 
    I think will be in terms of trust of contact with the bit, responsiveness 
    to leg aids and not thinking of riding as something awful.  He used to 
    love workouts and I'm sure he'll come to love them again when he feels 
    better.
    
    Luckily he's a very intelligent and kind horse and I've worked with him 
    a lot for 8 months, vs her doing not too much for 6 weeks (in fact nothing 
    the 1st week or 2).  I've been visiting him with carrots each weekend and 
    he always is real happy to see me.
    
    Mary  

    Things seem to have worked themselves out.  His comeback in one weeks
    time is astonishing.  There were 2 things that needed correcting, both
    related to diet and barn management.  One of them was that his water
    bucket was not being cleaned enough, so he wasn't getting enough water.  
    When they took better care of his buckets, his water intake doubled, 
    but then they noticed that he wasn't assimilating the water, so we've 
    put him on electrolytes.  The other thing was that he needed to get more 
    food.
    
    I'm taking a more active role in his training from here on in.  We've
    broken the riding problems into their component parts and are working
    on the components before backing him again.  Its back to lunging for
    aerobics and long-lining for steering, but I've added in handwalking on
    gentle slopes and hills with weights.  We will gradually increase the
    weight until he is strong enough and coordinated enough to carry 100+
    pounds on hills and around curves without getting his feet tangled up
    or having his back sag.  Then he should be ready for riding.  Based on
    his overall improvement, I anticipate that in 1 month we can go back to 
    walking under a rider. 
    
    The trainer had a vet out at her own expense last week to make sure
    that he was ok.  Now that he's all better, the tension is gone and we
    are able to work together better than before.  We argued over who was
    going to pay the vet--I wanted to because I didn't want to feel like
    she was doing me any favors and she wanted to because she wanted me to
    feel that she cared about him.  We settled by splitting the bill.  I've 
    cancelled out on any thoughts of moving him again until our scheduled 
    training time (thru October) runs out.
    
    Mary  :-) 

    Moderator, feel free to move this.  I wanted to put it in the good
    news/makes it all worthwhile note, but couldn't find it.
    
    Having spilled my guts last August while looking for help with my
    horse, I thought it was only fair to give an update on the good news. 
                                                    
    I got Algiers back at the end of December, cured of balking and with a
    little steering and brakes.  Real basic, but thrilled to have him back
    at last.  We spent 3 months at Miles End (only place within reach with 
    indoor & opening in mid-winter), where we got to know each other again
    and I got my riding legs back.  In April we moved to Deerhorn, which
    meets both our needs better.  He's completely settled in and very
    happy.  He's turned out in a small pasture next to another delinquent,
    so the two of them have a great time every morning, running, bucking,
    talking and just eating.  His stall only has 1/2 wall on the front, so
    he can hang his head out all day and watch the comings & goings, which
    also makes him happy.
    
    He's great on trails!  Our 1st time out, we were "attacked" by 2 dogs 
    and he got pretty upset, so I got off, chased the dogs off and walked 
    him home.  Next time we ran into a dog, he just stood his ground and kept 
    walking dead ahead, while the dog -- who was huge -- ran around us in 
    circles, barking.  We can go on the buckle for a very mellow ride, or I
    can pick up the reins for a working trailride :-)
    
    He's very good at dressage.  I wasn't really able to start schooling
    him till we got to Deerhorn.  On his best days he is excellent training
    level, on his worst days I need to work real hard.  His trot leg-yields
    are routine and he's learning canter leg-yields (finally, something that
    makes him concentrate!).  Trot circles are not usually a problem -- down 
    to 10m.  I don't expect to start shrinking his canter circles for
    several months yet -- his stride is very long so cantering in a ring
    has been tougher for him.  He's learning shoulder-fore/in and officially
    started learning lengthenings last week.  I was considering entering
    him in Deerhorn's schooling show next week, but after riding a practice
    test, decided we better wait.  Not only do we need to sharpen our
    transitions, we also need to practice schooling when other horses are
    around!  Some riders turned up while we were practicing lengthenings. 
    After he finished bolting across the arena in 4 strides (!we were
    "rubber banding" and nicely collected on the short side -- great
    impulsion!)  his attention was gone!  So now we make a point of
    schooling once or twice a week when others are there.  And maybe we'll
    try showing next year!
    
    Mary