Conference noted::equitation

    I used a rubber pelham for a good while on my old horse.  I loved
    it!  He had a problem with tossing his head and this didnt completely
    cure it, but it sure helped the problem.  Each time he pulled on the
    bit he ran right into the curb chain.  Because of this and because
    Rail would often try to avoid the curb if used to much, I didnt
    use a converter strap (which meant double reins, but thats really
    no big deal).
    
    Dont know anything about the kimberwicke, although I've seen them
    on quiet a few of the hunters around here.
    
    One note on the rubber pelham....When I talked to the guy at the
    tack store, he did warn me that if the horse started to chew on the
    rubber bit at all, I should switch to an all metal pelham.  Apparently,
    the bit that I purchased was only rubber with some kind of rope to
    hold it.  If the horse should chew all the way through you could
    be left with no bit at all.  However, the rubber is quite tough.
    
    Jan
    

    
    Well, I had the exact opposite experience from the previous note...
    my horse was a runaway, and I went from a plain snaffle to a
    Kimberwick. The Kimberwick helped, some, but I was still having
    problems. Then I finally went to a slow twist with a running martingale
    and am now the one in control - most of the time!!
    
    But anyhow, about the Kimberwick... on the one I have, the bit itself
    looks exactly like a broken snaffle. But it has a chain, and a "curb"
    thing that doesn't really look much like a curb. The curb-thing is
    where the cheek 'D' would be on a regular snaffle, and has three outer
    holes in it, along with the hole inside the 'D'. If you put the reins
    in the inside hole, you get the same action as a regular snaffle. If
    you put the reins in the first (top) outer hole, you get more curb
    action; if you put the reins in the second, next-lower, hole, you get
    a bit more curb action, and the most curb action on the lower hole.
    
    The graduations for one hole to the next are pretty slight, and the
    third hole still doesn't have as much leverage as most curb bits I've
    seen, but quite a bit more than a regular snaffle.
    
    

    I have been using an eggbut snaffle in the ring, at the shows, and when
    we trail ride alone.  When I trail ride with anyone else I have to use a
    tom thumb.  I think the kimberwick is like a snaffle with a straight
    mouth piece and a curb chain.  The pelham also has a straight mouth
    piece, but has the shanks and curb chain.  A tom thumb has the jointed
    mouth piece, curb chain and shanks.
    
    Michele
    

    We used a Kimberwick on one of our horses who was hard to control.  She
    respected anything with a curb chain and responded very well to the
    Kimberwick (actually we were doing the opposite of what you're doing -
    we were going from a double bridle back to a snaffle with her and were
    using the Kimberwick as an intermediate step).  We also used a Pelham
    bit on her in this process.  You can get a lot more curb-action with a
    Pelham (how much depends on the length of the shank) than you can with
    the Kimberwick.  Also you can ride the Kimberwick with one rein.  We
    were pleased with how it worked, but again, every horse is different. 
    We tried rubber Pelhams and rubber snaffles on a few of our horses and
    they just chewed right through the rubber!
    
    						Jan

    Just an opinion on Kimberwick vs. Dr. Bristol or Slow Twist.
    
    Kimberwicks are rarely used on show circuit. Other bitting solutions
    my work for a strong horse such as Dr. Bristol, a slow twist, corkscrew
    or twisted wire [for the really strong]. All these bits appear
    externally like a snaffle bit. In theory, hunters are supposed to be
    quiet and have a pleasant way of going [even if it's a twisted wire
    making them look that way]. A Kimberwick is a dead give-away.
    
    This only applies to shows. For the trails or at home, of course, you
    use whatever works and you like. Switching bits as required by your
    horse is often done too. Use the snaffle when quiet but be prepared to
    switch to more sever bit when needed.
    
    I also recommend the Practical Horseman article on bitting.

    I would use the Rubber Pelham.  When I was younger I had a very firey
    11.2hh Welsh Mountain Pony.  I rode her in an eggburt snaffle, standing
    martingale and flash noseband, her mouth became very hard and I
    couldn't hold her.  I then went to the rubber pelham.  I used it with
    two reins, mostly riding on the snaffle rein and only using the curb
    when I needed it.  Because the snaffle rein is effectively only a
    rubber snaffle it is much softer than the eggbert.
    
    I found after a few months that I was using the curb rein less and
    less.  It got to a stage when I was only using the snaffle rein.  I
    then went back to the eggbert.  Her mouth actually became softer and I
    only used the pelham if ever I felt she was getting strong again.
    
    I personally think that the kimberwick would hardern your horses mouth,
    so you would end up on stronger bits.  I new someone who had a gag (Do
    you have these in the US?  They are snaffles with a leather peice which
    goes from the headpeice in the bridle through the rings and to the
    reins.  The most survire bit you can buy in England) plus a grackle
    noseband and running martingale and still had difficulty stopping!.
    
    I hope this helps you.
    
    Suzanne
                                             

    Just a question:  
    			What is a GRACKLE noseband??  
    
    I've heard of the word, but never knew what the actual piece
    of tack looked like.  Could you explain it to me?  Is it some-
    thing that is used only in Europe?  
    
    Thanks.  Marti

    Marti,
    
    I might only be used in Europe.  I know it's used in England.  It's a
    noseband that crosses over the horses nose.  It works a little like a
    drop noseband, so it stops the horse from getting it's tongue over the
    bit, but because it crosses you can make it tighter without affecting
    the breathing of course.  Also I think it stops them from crossing their 
    jaw.  Apparently the horse can click their jaw to evade the bit.  But
    I've never had it happen to me.
    
    Suzanne
    
    
    

    I use a Grackle nose band here in Ireland. I believe it is called
    an X or cross nosebank in the U.S. It is very effective on horses
    which hend o open their mouths or have other Mouth/Tongue evasions.
    It is as stated in the last reply two straped which cross over the
    horses nose and are joined by a small leather pad. It also gives
    added control as it works on the horses nose when using the reins.
    
    re. Dr. Bristol. This bit is banned under BHS dressage rules and
    therefore I use a French Bridoon which is very similair except that
    the bars are flat on the horses tongue. Both bits are double jointed
    snaffles and are often mistaken for one another. I have had to call
    in a referee recently to educate the scrutineer on the difference.
    I would certainly recommend the French Bridoon/Grackle combination
    for a fairly strong animal.
    
    
    regards Gareth
    
    
    n.b. You may lose marks for wearing a grackle in show/dreassage
    but they are not illegal.

    One more idea, my horse was getting excited on the trail, but I did not
    want to go more severe, so I added a flash noseband. It made a great
    difference, but I did not lose ground as far as getting her to accept
    the bit and flex.
    Sandy
    

    
    	The Kimberwicke comes in both straight and broken. The one I
    	had was broken.
    
    	-j
    

    
    	maybe dumb question for the day.....
    
    	So, what makes it a kimberwicke?  Is is the fact that there is
    	more than one rein attachment point for different leverage
    	purposes?  
    
    	Interesting point I'd never thought about...
    
    	ideas?
    
    

    Yes--that there is a single rein with a chain for leverage.
    
    Mary

    
    	soooo... sounds like when we share information in situations
    	like this we need to be more specific - ie; "I used a kimberwick
    	with a snaffle mouth, or I used a kimberwick w/a low port..."
    	bla bla bla...  
    
    

    What do you mean by "a snaffle mouth" on a kimberwicke bit?  The
    mouthpiece of a bit does not determine what type of bit it is.
    
    A snaffle bit is any bit that has some kind of ring with a single rein,
    but no curb chain or strap, i.e. no leverage.  The mouth of the snaffle
    can be straight or jointed.  When straight there is usually a "moon" (curve)
    so the bit won't press on the horse's tongue.
    
    A curb bit is a bit with a shank to which the rein is attached. 
    combined with the curb chain or strap, this creates leverage against
    the underside of the jaw when pressure is applied. The length of the
    shank determines the severity of the bit, with a short shank being the
    mildest. Curb mouths can be straight or jointed.  The straight bits 
    have either a moon or a port.  The main purpose of the port is to allow 
    room for the tongue.  Some more sever bits have very high ports--I'm 
    not certain of the intention.  Depending on how it lays in the mouth, 
    high ports will either press against the roof of the horses mouth or 
    prevent the horse from getting his tongue over the bit.
    
    A pelham bit combines a snaffle and curb by using two reins.  The upper
    rein is attached to the bit ring and does not activate the leverage
    effect of the chain/strap.  The shank rein does. Again, the bit can be
    straight or jointed.
    
    A kimberwicke bit is combines the curb chain/strap with the snaffle
    ring.  The idea is that moderate contact will not activate the leverage
    effect, whereas stronger contact will cause the bit to turn slightly on
    its axis and produce the leverage effect of a mild curb.   I've only
    seen these as straight with low ports, but again, that mouthpiece is
    not what makes it a kimberwicke.
    
    Mary

    
    	
    You've said it all in the first sentence of your reply " The mouth
    piece of a bit does not determine what type of bit it is"... 
    
    I made the mistake of using snaffle as an example (because in my
    mind all snaffles are broken...)  that's all.  We have always called
    smooth mouthed bits w/rings "mouthing bits" - not used for riding 
    or driving but acclimating the young horses mouth.  Sometimes these
    were hard rubber sometimes they were steel... 
    
    
    

    Didn't mean to run on...just clarify for any beginners that might be
    reading.
    
    Mary

    
    	Mary, thank you for taking the time to enter all of that,
    	it was very interesting...I'd like to comment on the bits	
    	with a high port - I have a Tennessee Walking Horse, and the
    	bit I (and many other Walker owners) use is a curb bit with 
    	a med to high port, and shanks can be upwards and 8 or 10"
    	long. Mine are 8". The high port combined with the long shanks
    	produce the required Walker head motion (esp) during the running
    	walk - head tucked, but nodding up and down *distinctly*. Side
    	to side is not allowed. Maybe Sandy Peth can explain this more
    	clearly....
    
    	Sherry
    

    Now I'm curious...how does the bit work to make that happen?
    
    Mary

    I don't know if I can help or not.....The high port lays on the tongue,
    many of them are copper to encourage saliva. The long shanks are mostly
    for show, Walkers start in a snaffle but are trained to back off of the
    bit, so if they are not nodding the slightest wiggle will get the head
    moving again. They are generally not ridden with any contact in the
    same manner as a reining horse, though the reins are not drooped to
    that extent. The bit would be quite severe if a poor rider were to pull
    too hard. That is as much as I know as my walker is learning Dressage
    in a snaffle.
    Sandy
    

    
    	Also these bits are not one piece, but jointed where
    	the bit meets the shank. I ride with separate reins
    	(saddle seat, in this case they actually call it Walker
    	seat), with little or no contact on the mouth. He also
    	neck reins very well. The curb chain is fairly loose, 2-3
    	fingers.
    
    	If you have a State Line or Champion catalog, they do
    	have `Walking bits'...
    

    My Morgan was always a little bit more heavy on the bit in the show
    ring, so I bought a snaffle pelham with a very short shank.  It
    worked beautifully.  I use a loose curb chain on it, and my horse
    loves it.  He has always been one to tell me when something is wrong
    (he hates it when I put on the western saddle, not that it hurts
    him because he's fine once I get it on, he just can't stand it)
    but he accepts the pelham just as he does his plain snaffle, bozell
    (sp), and grain from my hand.  It has also never interupted with
    his head carriage, and we've won many a championships on the west
    coast with it.
    
    I hope this has helped.
    
    Kelly
    

    Hi! I have used a jointed ("broken") Kimberwicke in similar situations
    with good results and it is familiar feeling to a horse who's been on a
    snaffle.