Conference noted::equitation

	Situation 1:
    
    Since this is a RATED show, you are showing under AHSA rules.
    
    A judge's decision is NOT protestable according to AHSA rules.  So you
    cannot file a formal protest.
    
    But you have the right as an AHSA member to file an exhibitor's comment
    sheet which should be available from the Technical Delegate for the 
    show.  And as an AHSA member you can file a letter with AHSA.  However,
    mistakes can be made.  And maybe visually to the judge, it appeared the
    exhibitor did not sit (bouncing body or clothes maybe gave the visual
    impression of not sitting.)

    
	Situation 2:

    Since this is unrated, you have NO formal recourse.  I advise not
    getting too excited about the judging at an unrated show because
    usually we are there for the schooling.  And sometimes the judges which
    are there to learn also.  Generally it is well to remember that most
    people try to do their best and you will have a lot fewer stomach aches
    if you keep that in mind when showing.

	Situation 3:
    
    If a judge was stupid enough to put a comment like that in writing and
    it was a rated show then I would have a talk with the Technical
    Delegate and I would also file a letter with AHSA's Judges Selection
    Committee with the evidence.  And if it were an unrated show with a
    judge to may have a rating or one who is trying to get a rating I would
    still file a letter with AHSA's Judges Selection committee (or whatever
    that committee is called).  
    
    
    As an exhibitor at a rated show you have the right to arrange a meeting
    after the show with the judge and having the technical delegate
    present.  When I was stewarding we had several cases of exhibitors
    wanting to talk to the judge for various reasons.  
    
    However, remember you will unlikely change the scores.  But it might be 
    well as in situation 3 to let the judge know that you noticed his
    prejudicial comments.

    
    
    	Well Ed-
    
    	Unfortunately not all Judges are fair, but what I do when I
    	come across unfairness is I take a minute and think to myself,
    	OK this person is a jerk but did I #1. Enjoy self?  #2. Was
    	I happy with my horse and I as team?  #3. Did I have FUN?
    	And if my answer is "YES" then thats it...  I show for my self
    	and for my horse and if someone is unfair or does not like us
    	then thats their opinion and not mine.  Some people may persue 
    	the matter and complain to the show manager and thats fine for 
    	them but a ribbon and trophy are not everything to me, just as 
    	long as I know my horse and I did the best we could is enough
    	for me.

    
    	I hope I didn't hit any sore spots with anyone but thats how
    	I deal when something like that happens.
    
    	Zina

    My two cents worth:
    
    As an offical (not a judge but I've officated other sports) mistakes
    are easy to make and hard to recover.
    
    However, as a member of an officating board, feedback is always
    appreciated especially when it is coolly and concisely presented.
    Nothing makes matters worse than a flaming nasty gram.
    
    Situation 1: You should not expect the decision to be changed but you should
    express your opinion to the correct offical body. Again, a diplomatic
    but direct written complaint is what you need to present. If the judge
    gets enough written complaints, they board has some ammunition to use.
    
    Situation 3: If this was an unrated show, chalk it up to experience and
    don't attend any more shows judged by that person. If it was a rated
    show, complain to the board but don't expect prejudice to be easy to
    overcome.
    
    Officating, judging and managing events are difficult and often
    thankless jobs subject to all the same human frailities as other
    jobs. Hang in there.
    
    Nancy (10 years exp as a basketball offical and 3 as president of the
           Digital Women's basketball league)
    

    Take up Jumping or Western Pleasure :-)
                                
    Seriously, all these different shows having that many "bad"
    judges makes me wonder how they became judges.  i.e. whats
    the criteria used to choose judges for dressage shows?
    
    I would at least write letters letting them (judges and/or
    club holding event) know of your findings and displeasure.
    
    I have run into bad judges before, but never on such a consistent
    basis. (Western showing)
     
    About the judge who actually wrote a note about your type horse;
    
    Tell him to go *&%%*&$ him/herself!  Thats why there are more horses
    *'s than there are horses.   
    
    BTW, what kind of horse do you have?
    
         
    Lynne

    Unfortunatly bad judges reputations and sore losers reputations
    tend to get around.  If I were going to continue to show I would
    be a little careful about telling a judge off.  This is the reason
    I don't show anymore!  Its too political!!

    
    Please remember that in showing your horse you are paying for the
    opinion of that particular judge of you and/or your horse on that 
    particular day.  
    
    No more, no less.
    
    Usually it is a well-meaning opinion.  And honestly meant.  
    
    And what we see from the rail maybe very different than what was seen
    from within the ring.  And what the judge sees is what counts.  Not
    what everyone else sees.  Believe me, these can be two different views.
    
    And remember that the exhibitors' frame of reference is very likely
    different that the judges frame of reference.  I have had the honor of
    officiating with several judges.  I had the opportunity to ask about a
    particular horse or a particular class and always received very
    reasonable explanations of why a class was pinned as it was.  Or why a
    horse was scored as it was.
    
    Just because you was the rider or owner think your horse is the
    greatest thing since Granat doesn't mean the judge is going to think
    the same way.
    
    Case in point:  a champion halter mare was shown at a show I was
    stewarding.  The horse placed at the bottom of the class.  The owners
    were furious.  After all this was a CHAMPION.  The judge told me that
    he really liked the horse--beautiful body and neck and head and
    movement.  But CROOKED front legs.  He hated the crooked legs more than
    he liked the slightly lesser 'beauty' of the horses he pinned ahead of
    it.  I had to agree with him.  But the owners were so used to looking
    at those legs, they didn't notice them any more.

	Well as was mentioned before, at rated shows you can fill out
	a judges evaluation forms.   Also, you can complain to
	competition management, and if they get enough complaints,
	they may very well not hire that judge the next year.   Also,
	when you fill out your entry form, you can request not to be
	judged by a particular judge.    

	Everyone's felt that they were judged unfairly against their favor.
	But I also think I've been judged unfairly *in* my favor.   So
	when I look at it that way, I don't mind at all.  All I did was
	pay for someone's opinion, and got it, whether it matched my 
	opinion or not.

	There was a certain judge way back when, who I seemed to get
	over and over again.  He'd always mark me real low, as compared
	to other judges.  Then as a judges remark -- he'd write 
	'Went well for such a small horse.'   My horse was a 15 hand
	morgan.   So finally it came down to the Neda sweepstakes, where
	you have two judges watching your ride and one judge marked me in 
	the high 60's.  Guess who the other judge was?  He marked me in 
	the high 40's.  I remember it was the only major discrepency at the 
	score board and people were talking about it who didn't even know me.

	But that was back in the days when they could say things like
	'good' and give you a 5.   Today, they're not suppose to make
	comments that don't match the scores.   I've seen much improvement
	nowadays, with judges no longer afraid to give an 8 or 9 when
	they see something 'very good' and also no longer afraid to
	give a 2 or 3 when they see something very bad.  

	One thing that's really important to do is to check the accuracy
	of your score when you get your test back.  There's been a couple
	occaisions when I got home, and took a closer look at my test
	and found some scoring mistakes.   Both cases would have changed
	my pinning.   One case had a coefficent improperly multiplied by 2.
	The difference of 2 points can easily cost a placing.   
		
	If anyone's going to Neda spring May 18-19-20, please stop by
	and say hello.  I'll be riding all three days, with 2 different
	horses between 1st and 4th level.    (gasp - I've never shown 4th!) 	

	Melinda

    Ok. I confess.  I judge AND I (sometimes) make mistakes.  'Course
    so do the scorers, etc.
    
    In an AHSA show you any judge that's stupid enough to deragatory
    comments against a breed will be censured (or at least informed
    of the error of their ways) by the folks who maintain the judging
    certifications.  Those comments are unprofessional and unsportsmanlike.
    You can't do much about them at that show, but you can inform the
    group which santions the show (usually AHSA).
    
    If you really feel judging/scoring has been unfair, you may file
    a protest ($50.00 up front).  Scoring errors and such will be corrected
    but protests involving the judges opinion will side with the judge.
    If you really don't understand how a class is being judged it is
    appropriate to ask the steward/TD (or organizer if there isn't a TD)
    if you may speak with the judge.  Most judges will be happy to explain
    why they placed you where the did, but the will not discuss another
    exhibitors performance.
    
    As for an unrated show with a dumb judge... don't go back!
    
    -maureen
    

    
    
    
    Re: .8
    
    Ed, 
    
>	I hope everyone realizes I am presenting a topic for discussion!
>	I have no gripe, grudge, or complaint that I am airing. Please do
>	not think the examples I gave are necesarily real. (maybe they are,
>	maybe they aren't...) I want your opinions.

    This is as I thought it might be -- you WERE just trying to stir the
    waters.
    
    Regarding your 'editorial' regarding a judge's 'boot camp', I suggest
    that you study the AHSA rule book as well as USDF rules regarding
    judge's certification and the requirements for becoming a judge.
    
    If your opinions are different than what is required by USDF and AHSA,
    then I recommend becoming active in your local dressage chapter, at
    the AHSA Zone Member Forums, and through your local AHSA affiliate
    club.  These organizations are made up of their members and members can
    and do have input.  
    
    Mary Jo ;-)

    What kind of score do you think is warranted if a horse picks up
    a canter transition one stride late (just beyond the letter where
    it was asked for)? What if the comments for the movement were, 
    "lovely transition, but late"? Does this warrant a 0, because the 
    transition was not at the letter, or a 2,3, or 4, because the 
    movement WAS executed, but late. Looking for some opinions here....
  
    K.

    I think part of that would depend on the level of the test.  At
    training level, I would consider it pretty inconsequential and base the
    score more on the quality than precision.  I would probably toughen up 
    considerably by 2nd level.
    
    Mary

                    <<< Note 1240.13 by CARTUN::MISTOVICH >>>

    >I think part of that would depend on the level of the test.  

     It was training level.

	I consider the word 'lovely' to mean at least an 8.  And the word
	'but' means there's a point deduction.  In training level, this
	deduction shouldn't be too severe, I don't think.  Maybe one point.

	Melinda		
	p.s. what score were you given for the movement?

    
    At the seminars I have been too, at training the judging should be 
    lenient regarding precision.  I would have to say at least a 5
    (sufficient).  I would tend to go more with 7 or 8 minus a point for 
    lateness.
    

    
    I feel these judges need to attend some USDF recognized judging
    seminars.

    I know this is a little later than most of the notes in this topic but
    I'll go on anyway.
    
    I seriously believe that MOST dressage judges(especially on the East
    coast) ARE prejudiced. They are prejudiced in favor of Warmbloods. No
    other type of horse can do dressage in their opinions. There are(were)
    some judges who did not show such prejudice but some of them died over
    the past few years.
    
    I'll recant a couple anecdotes which support this well known fact:
      1. My wife was showing a Morgan mare. The judge expressed a comment
    to the scribe which indicated that she didn't think Morgans were any
    good for dressage. How do I know? The scribe was a friend! The scribing
    friend then told the judge that she also rode Morgans. The judge turned
    around and tried to SELL our friend a Morgan that she(the judge) was
    training!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
      2. We knew a woman who lived on a ranch in Colorado most of the year.
    She spent her summers in Vermont where she showed one of her ranch
    horses. This horse was a combination of draft horse, mustang and
    anything else that had been useful on the ranch. It looked like many of
    the coarser type Warmbloods you see around. It also had a BRAND! (Most
    ranch horses do) She swore that this horse was routinely given higher
    scores than she and her trainer felt were justified by the horse's
    performance. I asked the trainer why this happened. Her response was
    something like "Well, when they see a brand on a big horse, they assume
    it's a Warmblood and the scores go up!"
    
    The late Major Hector Carmona (who trained and showed his wife's Arabs)
    once told me that it was extremely difficult to get respect in the
    dressage arena on a "socially unacceptable breed". 
    
    John

I disagree with some of your general opionions.   I don't doubt judges
have certain biases with certain breeds, but I don't think its a fair
statement to say most judges are prejudiced in favor of warmbloods, especially
today.  

Even if we asked the AHSA to gather some statistics about warmblood
scores vs non-warmblood scores across the country, does it mean that
just because warmblood scores tend to be higher, that there is 
prejudice toward warmbloods?  Or could it mean that statistically, warmbloods 
perform better than non-warmbloods in dressage?  

If anyone feels their horse's breed is to blame for lower scores,
then they should see how their median scores measure up to other
horses's medians scores who are of the same breed.  The USDF offers
all breeds awards, and you can ask how you did nationally, (all
median scores are ranked).

We can all cite examples of unfair judging.  I know it exists and I'm
not arguing that.   But in general, and now more than ever, I think judges 
respect a horse for its performance and are not knocking it for its breed.

Melinda  who-placed-over-plenty-of-warmbloods-with-a-morgan

    Well, Jan and her mare do very well compared with Morgans nation wide
    or did until she semi-retired the mare. They were Reserve Champions in
    AMHA's Open Competition Award some years back. They beat their share of
    Warmbloods when the judge was fair. On their best days, they even one a
    few classes! BUT those days were few and far between compared to the
    days when the judge put them down because the horse was small(15.0h)
    and Morgan.
    
    Personally, I didn't like most Warmbloods I have ridden. There are some
    very good ones but... I think it's interesting that some of the
    European riders are coming to the US for Thoroughbreds as dressage
    mounts! The most pre-eminent name I recall that did so is Christine
    Stuckelberger (spelling?) so obviously they don't think Warmbloods are
    necessary mounts. I wonder why so many of us do?
    
    Pot boiler(aka John)

Riding styles and fad breeds come and go but...

Whether it is dressage, CT, racing, jumping, driving, hunting, they always come
back to them........

	........Ride a Thoroughbred and you'll never be out of style ;-)



	-JoAnne_who_is_unbelievably_biased_toward__guess_which_breed


p.s. sound like a car commercial? *8^)