Conference noted::equitation

    Hi Sherry,
    
    I have had the same problem in my barn this year, both my mare and
    weanling foal were coughing.  Like yours though, they didn't have 
    runny eyes or noses and seemed to feel fine.  My vet put them on 
    1 heaping teaspoon (1/2 for the foal) twice a day of Diamide Iodide
    which is supposed to dry them up.  After a couple of days their
    coughs were gone.  
    
    I couldn't figure out what was causing it, probably just this strange
    New England weather we've been having!
    
    Linda
    
    

    We have had a horse with allergies (like myself) but it only lasted for
    about a month in the Spring of the year.  This had to be 20 years ago. 
    At that time we just suffered it out and did very little work with him
    even though he coughed very little when he was ridden...once in an
    entire ride.  His coughing was usually when he was in his stall.
    
    Now we also had a 3/4 Arab who coughed both in and out of his
    stall...he could come and go as well but the area was very dusty.  We
    tried everything until an "old farmer" said to soak his hay in water
    and lime (sweet).  How we handled this was filled a hay net with hay
    and dumped it in the lime water.  Would sit for four or five hours
    until he was fed the next time and then we would switch hay bags for
    the next feeding.  My husband rigged a pulley system for me as the bag
    would be HEAVY when first pulled out of the water.  By the way we would
    let it drain for about a half an hour before feeding it to him.
    
    Whatever it was, it did work in his case.
    
    Good luck.
    

    I have seen similar allergic reactions. You just have to try a process
    of elimination.
    
    I've seen horses with allergies switched from hay to alfalfa cubes.
    It eliminates the coughing.

    re: .0

	 You don't  say  how  much your horse coughs.  If it's only once
     and  then  he  stops,  I  wouldn't  worry too much.  He may just be
     clearing  his  lungs  of any dust.  If he coughs several times in a
     row,  then  I  would  start  to  worry.  Also, is it a deep hacking
     cough?  When he coughs, is there any phlegm?

    
    	re .4   He coughs several times in the mornings and
    		evenings, while he is in his stall. It is a
    		deep cough that sounds like he dragged it up
    		from the bottom of his lungs, but it does not
    		have any phlegm. When he does it, it's two or
    		three times at once, then doesn't happen for 
    		a little while. 
    
    		It's hard to say if he coughs when turned out
    		during the day, as no one is there to see him
    		do it...
    
    		I'll know more after the vet scopes his throat
    		tomorrow, and will let you know what she says.
    		In the meantime, it's great to know he's not the
    		only one with this problem. By the way, the four
    		other horses that have been in this same barn 
    		are not coughing...

	Could it possibly be his sinuses? With this strange winter that we
	have been having, maybe he has a sinus problem and the coughing is
	caused by sinus drainage (in which case his nasal passages woudl be
	clear but the sinus would be blocked...)

	Just a thought...

	Good luck in finding out!

    Sherry,
    Walkers are more prone to heaves than other breeds, my first one had
    them and two of my friends walkers have heaves. It seems the fact that
    they eat everything their served, not picking through the hay means
    they will eat stuff other horses won't touch, dirt fungus, etc. I would
    treat Ebony as though he has them, maybe even going to New Hope or
    Agway's Respond feeding programs. Tammy coughed like you described for
    6 months before heaves was diagnosed. Respond cleared her right up and
    maintained her at a good weight. An open window away from the wind is
    very important, free access to pasture even better. I am very careful
    about the quality of hay that Summer eats, checking to make sure there
    are no musty or dusty spots because she will eat it. Paraniod
    almost!8^)
    Sandy
    

    
    	Well, the vet came saturday and scoped his throat. She
    	didn't see anything notable, no polyps, obvious irritation/
    	infection. He still coughs, but his lungs still show no
    	congestion. His windpipe sounds a little bit harsh, due
    	to irritaion from dust amd coughing. 
    
    	Again, she could only say to keep him out as much as 
    	possible, even to the extent of building him a shed in
    	the paddock and leaving him out all the time. 
    
    	In the course of the week, he is to be weaned off of loose
    	hay and switched over to alfalfa cubes, and possibly change 
    	him from trotter to respond or something like that.
    
    	He's on tribrissen for about ten days, and for as long as 
    	he is coughing, I am to give him a honey/glycerin mixture
    	before riding. 
    
    	So, we'll just have to wait and see if he improves....
    
    	Sherry
    

    Sherry,
    How is Ebony doing with the cough? Any better....?
    Sandy
    

    
    	
    	Hi Sandy - Ebony has been spending most of his time outdoors, 
    	unless the weather is really bad. We decided not to put him
    	on hay cubes, because of the high possibility that he could
    	founder. After he finished his medication, he stopped coughing,
    	but the weather hasn't been good enough to ride lately, so I 
    	can't say if exertion will make him cough. The vet did mention
    	that all of her `allergic clients' have been worse this year
    	for some reason, so maybe it won't happen again next year...
    
    	Sherry
    

================================================================================
Original Note by:              Veterinary Medical News                      
CURIE::GCOOK                                         27 lines  23-FEB-1990 09:57
                         -< Help for coughing horses >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I know that somewhere in this note there's a discussion of
    coughing horses, heaves, bronchitis, etc.  I have recently
    acquired some information that could be helpful if you're
    dealing with any or all of these problems.
    
    My vet, *Dr. Gill, strongly recommends switching to an Agway
    complete feed called "Respond".  This sweet feed has been
    scientifically developed specifically for horses who have
    problems with dust and/or allergies.  He also strongly
    recommends using a hay substitute called "horsage".  I've
    seen this stuff and it's like hay that's been pickled or
    turned into silage.  It's moist and smells a little bit
    sour.  Horses love it!  I called someone I know who feeds
    horsage.  It's available from a dealer in Connecticut -
    Hill 'n Dale Farm, phone 203.774.8171.  The price as of
    December '89 was $240/ton.  It comes on a plastic wrapped
    one-ton pallet.  Two tons will feed one horse for a year.
    (The $240 is a delivered price to Harvard, MA.)
    
    -----------
    *Just an aside about Dr. Gill.  He is VERY conservative.  He
     doesn't have any use for fads and, in the 15 years that I've
     known him, I can probably count on the fingers of one hand
     the products that he has strongly recommended.  So, I guess
     when he says that he strongly recommends something, I'd do it.
    
   

I know there are other notes about coughing horses in this conference
but not specifically one relating to COPD (called "Heaves" in the USA).

Although he's not officially been diagnosed, I am fairly certain that
my horse has COPD. We've switched him to a less dusty bedding than straw,
and soak his hay, which has helped, but he still coughs regularly during
the winter when he is kept in at night.

Talking to a horse friend of mine yesterday, she said that last year
at her stables, one of her horses was given a medication called
(not at all sure of the spelling!) Ventapulmin and this cleared
up his cough almost immediately. Apparently this can only be prescribed 
through a vet.

Now I know that every horse person has a different "cure" for every
disease/affliction/problem, so I thought that I would ask the notes
community if anyone had ever heard of this medication? 

Ellen

    Yes, we have used Ventapulmin (sp?) on horses before and it really
    helps their breathing, the down side is that its VERY EXPENSIVE!!
    It comes in either a powder or injectable, which I think runs about
    $70-80 per bottle.  It does work though.  Is there any possibility of
    leaving your horse out all the time during the good weather?  Mine has
    her stall door open all the time and is only locked in the stall during
    storms or bitter cold.  She loves it.

    So, what does COPD stand for? I'd guess that the PD part would mean
    something like "pulmonary defficiency" but haven't a clue as to the
    rest of it!
    
    Some minor management changes might help somewhat. A New Zealand Rug
    would permit night turnout if that is possible/desireable.
    
    If the stall has what we call "Dutch doors" (i.e. swinging doors with
    top and bottom sections which open independently), you could leave the 
    top half open for better circulation. The horse still stays dry and is 
    warmer than if it were out.
    
    Our stable has such 2 Dutch doors on each stall. One door opens to the
    paddock and the other to the covered(but wall-less grooming area). On 
    the paddock side, we removed the top section completely. We leave the
    top section on the other door open nearly all the time. About the only
    time we close them is during storms with strong winds.
    
    As for treatment of COPD/heaves, about 8-10 years ago, we had a vet 
    prescribe a drug which was formerly used as a heartworm preventative in 
    dogs for a horse which had symptoms of early stages of heaves. The drug 
    supposedly stimulated the lung tissue into regeneration. Coupled with 
    management changes, the hores recovered and today has no symptoms of
    heaves. Unfortunately, I can't recall the drug and I don't know how
    common this treatment is today.
    
    John

    
    	If the horse is being kept in at night, you need to make sure his
    	stall is VERY dry and put lime down once a week to cut down on the
    	ammonia generated by urine. Ammonia can actually damage the lungs,
    	esp in a horse that already has trouble...
    

I think the "C-O" part of COPD is cardio obstructive. I was never good
at remembering medical terms (probably why I decided against vet
school!)

Rocky's stable ventilation is good - his top stable door is always left
open and there is extra ventilation at ceiling level. Lime to cut down
on ammonia is a good idea, though....I'd like him to stay out 24 hours
but unfortunately that's not an option at his livery stable. It seems
most COPD symptoms can be alleviated through good environmental
management, so I'll have to work a bit more at this. He is on shavings
at the moment, I wonder if shavings is even too dusty?

Ventapulmin (sp?) is around �28 for a tub of powder here, I think. Might
be worth the investment if it really does work as well as everyone
says.

Ellen

    
    Lightly sprinkle the shavings in the stall with water.  That
    will help with the dust from the shavings.....

    I find that sawdust(from a sawmill; not a carpenter's saw) is far less 
    dusty than shavings. Shavings are from a planing operation after the 
    boards have been dried in a kiln. Shavings include small dry particles 
    which make quite a bit of dust.
    
    Sawdust from a sawmill is large and coarse. It's also usually "green" 
    because the boards are sawn before they are dried. That means it has 
    more moisture in it and is therefore heavier and less likely to make
    dust in the air.

    
    We took one of our stallions off Hay, he actually had an allergy
    to the dust in the hay, wet or not...... We switched him to
    alfalfa cubes, which must be wet before feeding since they expand
    alot..... like bran, wet and let sit before feeding.  It worked
    fine...   I believe its something like almost 3/4 bucket of water
    to 1 1/2 large scoops of cubes...  
    
    NMR

�I'd guess that the PD part would mean
    something like "pulmonary defficiency" but haven't a clue as to the
    rest of it!

yep, COPD stands for "cardio obstructive pulmonary deficiency", AKA
Broken Wind, AKA heaves.

Thanks for all the replies. I'll have to discuss with the stable
owner other bedding options (as they buy the bedding for us). Peat is
another possibility (fairly common in UK, not so common in US, I think)
for dust-free bedding.

I am considering switching him to Horsehage in place of hay. My main
concern with Horsehage is that horses tend to wolf it down fairly
quickly and because he's stabled at night, he gets bored easily without
things to constantly munch on. 

p.s. which reminds me, has anyone bought their horses those giant scented
apple toys? Are they worth the cost for bored horses? 

    
    If he's bored........ givem' a toy!  We hand old sturdy plastic
    items, etc in the stall on a piece of hay twine....... they get
    used to them and eventually bat them round quite a bit!  Bobby 
    was afraid to go to the side of his stall we hung it from at
    first, then you come out one day and it is squished!  he musta
    had a ball with it that night..........
    
    P.S.  Ibn Turf, the horse I referred to in my other note also
    had the heaves, they took him off the hay (not easy for a horse, since 
    they are grazing animals) and he rarely had attacks after that...
    
    Good luck
    
    NMR

Actually (rathole here), I bought a couple of giant swedes this week
(huge round turnips, I think they are, not a citizen of Sweden!) thinking they
would take a while for Rocky to eat...but he hacked through those things in
a matter of minutes. So my newest plan is to string twine through the
swede and hang it in his stable so he'll have the "bobbing for apples"
effect while trying to eat the swede...should keep him occupied for 
ages...he is a very determined eater!

Ellen

    >yep, COPD stands for "cardio obstructive pulmonary deficiency"
    
    "Cardio" or "chronic" ?

re: -.1 

yes....! It's "chronic". Don't know what my fingers were thinking when 
I typed that. Probably remembered typing "cardio pulmonary resuscitation"
from my first aid course.

cheers
Ellen

	My chap kept coughing so I started to soak the hay for 24 hours 

	hoping this may solve the problem .... I put him on shaving and put 

	the water on the top because he used to eat his straw even when I 

	did put YUKKA-BED on it,and he still coughed ...so then I called my 

	vet out and he diagnosed Mr Bean as suffering from a type of horsey 

	ASTHMA and recomended that I gave Bean  the Ventapulmin  and it 

	worked @!!!!!! :-)))    I leave him out in his field until the 

	weather gets really bad that I have to bring him in ...and we then have 

	to start using the ventapulmin again .... 


	When I ride he doesnt get breathless like I would assume  an asthmatic 

	horse would ..........????  Is there an explaination for this ..???


Racheal

Well, Rocky does get very winded from the COPD...at times he was heaving
after only a few turns round the school at a walk. The Ventipulmin seems
to be helping. It's difficult controlling the environmental factors
that cause the COPD when many of the horses around him are bedded on
straw - it's then nearly pointless to bed him on shavings when the dust
spores are floating about all around him!

re: soaking hay for 24 hours...I hope you're not actually soaking hay
for a full 24 hours!!! I have read that hay that is soaked for more than 
about 6 hours becomes the equivalent of raw sewage! 

Ellen

Ellen,


	I didnt know that ... about only soaking hay for a max of 6 hrs ??


	My vet has always told me that say @ 7-8pm @ night when they come in soak

	the hay and then feed the hay I just put in to soak the next evening 


	Is this documented in any form or is something that has been passed on 

	as Bean munches his hay like theres no tomorrow ..its good hay as 

	my dad makes it for me :-))))  and it smells very sweet even after 

	soaking ????? 


Racheal

	

�	I didnt know that ... about only soaking hay for a max of 6 hrs ??

I have read this in lots of places, and as long as I remember have taken
it as gospel truth! I will have a look at home and see if I can find
it documented somewhere, if you want an authoritative position. I think
it's been mentioned in a couple of the horsey mags recently in their
articles about controlling COPD...

Ellen

I finally had the time to look for the statements about soaking hay.
I couldn't find it in any of my books, so I looked through back
issues of horsey magazines.
 
I found a couple of references to soaking hay - apparently the longer
you soak it, the more nutrients are leached away (actually, some
magazines recommend steaming the hay instead of soaking it to prevent
this).

A recent issue of "Your Horse" had an article about hay, and I quote:

"Work at Writtel College presented at BEVA showed that 2-4% (DM)
of water soluble carbohydrates and 1.5-2% protein is lost from the
hay into the water. 
If you must soak hay, do not leave it immersed any longer than 4
hours. It has been found that hay in which water was soaked for longer
than this has a pollutant value ten times as strong as raw sewage."

    
    Well, not sure anyone really reads NOTES anymore, but if anyone
    has more information on Ventolin that would be appreciated.  Is this
    a one time type medication or an ongoing maintentance medicine?
    
    Thanks!
    Linda
    

    http://www.hiltonherbs.com/hackaway.html
    
    HILTON HACKAWAY 
    
    Indications for use:
    
    Coughs, mucus, allergies, asthma, C.O.P.D., headshaking (due to
    allergic
    reaction/irritation of the nasal tracts).
    
    This is a blend of herbs designed to have a number of actions on the
    respiratory
    system.
    
    Firstly it will act as an expectorant and bronchial dilator, helping
    the body to rid
    itself of irritants and mucus build up.
    
    Several of the herbs are anti-asthmatic, helping to reduce the allergic
    reaction
    that horses are now experiencing with the increase of air pollution,
    and the
    proliferation of crops with high pollen counts, such as rape and
    linseed.
    
    Anti-biotic herbs will help with slight infections of the airways,
    although it must be
    stressed that if an infection is suspected, (often highlighted by the
    presence of
    green/yellow coloured mucus) then veterinary advice should be sought.
    
    Herbs with a mucilagenous action will help reduce inflammation of the
    respiratory
    tracts, and reduce irritation.
    
    The mix will take 2-3 weeks to get into the system, and very often an
    increase in
    mucus discharge will be seen. The horse will be seen to "blow his nose"
    this is a
    good sign, as the body is ridding itself of the mucus that can cause
    damage to the
    lungs if the horse is put under strain.
    
    The mix has been used successfully as a natural alternative to
    pharmaceutical
    bronchial dilators, and can be used safely in conjunction with such
    products as
    Ventapulmin, Sputalosin.
    
    This mix is free from prohibited substances, and can therefore be used
    safely in
    competition (Britiish Jockey Club, F.E.I.).
    
    This mix with the addition of 2 herbs has been used successfully in
    cases of
    "bleeding".
    
    As with all Hilton products please contact the helpline for any further
    information
    or advice.
    
    Return to Hilton Equine Herbal Mixes 
    
    

    Ventolin is a bronchial dilator and Ventapulmin is apparently that
    plus...
    
    I would say you use it only when needed to treat breathing problems and
    coughing.
    
    Regards,
    
    John

    
    John,
    
       Have you used the Hackaway herbs or know of people who did?
    I will ask about this at the clinic on Sunday.
    
    Thanks
    Linda
    

I just found references to broncial dilators in the article as an explanation
of how and when they are used
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    what did the vet say?
    

    
    As this has been going on since March with various medications - some
    working , others not.  The coughing is better, but the Vet suspects
    the horse is allergic.  We have changed to feeding hay on the ground
    (wet) and are looking into changing the bedding to shavings.  There are
    some more tests that will be run next week...  Since this has been
    ongoing since March, it is hard to include all the information in
    notes.
    
    We also have the horse turned out more in the evenings now which seems
    to also be helping.  Other horses in the barn are also coughing so
    that is another factor.  The barn is extremely well managed, so that is
    not an issue as far as I know.  Original source of the coughing was
    suspected to be caused by 1 bad bale of hay which made things flare up.
    
    Linda

    
    If it is an allergy your horse is suffering from, see 
    if you can find out what ALL his allergies are before 
    spending lots of money modifying his environment.
    
    I found out that mine is allergic to shavings, amongst 
    other things.  Consequently replacing the straw bed with
    shavings didn't help her problems.
    
    Judy

    
    What method is used to determine ALL of the allergies?  We are
    currently on sawdust and the vet recommended shavings (and since the
    horse was previously in Maryland on shavings, this seemed to make
    sense).  Actually, historically the horse did not have allergies.
    
    I appreciate any input as there is not definite solution yet.
    

    >What method is used to determine ALL of the allergies?
    
    We had one of our horses tested for allergies a few years ago. The
    vet drew some blood and sent it off to a lab. About a week later, we
    got a report saying what the mare was allergic to...
    
    John

    
    Additional testing including a BAL and blood oxygen test have been
    done to see if the problem was deep in the lungs.  The BAL came out
    pretty clean, so now it appears the Vet believes it is a virus that
    did not clear up completely.  The horse is now on a mild does of
    Interferon (sp?) for 3 days.  The vet expects/hopes this will clear
    the horse up.  If it reoccurs later (a month or so down the road),
    then there may be more "allergic" tests to run.
    
    Horse is actually doing much better, so that is not the main concern
    at this time - more the ongoing maintenance/plan.
    
    Linda