Conference noted::equitation

     
    This is my .02 worth, Since the horse is 14 and has been campaigned
    pretty heavily most of his life I would consider just using him
    for flatwork. Bute has NO recovery action, its just a pain reliever.
    The longer they're on it, the worse it can be for them.  I would
    only recommend bute for a day or two if the horse seemed to be 
    particularly sore.  There is no "cure" for navicular, but some people
    have had success with Isoxuprine. I tried it on my mare, it had
    no effect. Isoxuprine also thins out the blood to a dangerous level,
    again I"d think twice about doing this. As far as nerving goes,
    unless you can eliminate all hills and uneven ground, don't go this
    route. Nerving also does not last, the procedure if done correctly
    must be done every so often to remove the regrowth of tissue. Your
    best bet would be to find out how serious the problem is and put
    on a heartbar shoe, no pads. My mare has a pretty severe case of
    navicular and is very comfortable with heartbars. Her jumping days
    are over, however she is very sound now for flatwork.  She always
    seemed better when left outside to move around rather than standing
    in her stall for long periods. We let her live outside 3/4 of the
    year now.  
    
    I think Myron McLean is probably one of the best farriers to talk
    to in any hoof area problem. He is very hard to get ahold of and
    you have to go to him..but its worth it. In any event, realize that
    the condition is most likely permanent and is best investigated 
    thoroughly. Best of luck in your decision.
    
    Marianne
    

    re. .1
    
    How do heartbar shoes help navicular?  I put them on my mare when she 
    foundered, so I am familiar with the shoe.  Doesn't pressure on
    the frog aggrivate navicular?  Just curious.
    
    Kathy

    My 16.3 hand, 13 year old quarter horse gelding was diagnosed
    as having navicular in both fore feet.  I showed him as an 
    amateur adult/amateur owner hunter for two years extremely 
    successfully.  I had him shod in egg bar shoes with a wedge
    pad and silicone.  He was also on isoxoprin.  He did
    extremely well on it.  I took him off it when I discovered
    it was one of the drugs on the AHSA's illegal drug list.
    He did not do as well with bute.  I finally decided to donate
    him to a riding school for the handicapped where he is the
    barn pet.  I can go ride him if I want whenever I want
    and I know he is treated very well.  They keep him shod
    in the egg bar shoes with silicone and give him bute.
    I can tell he is off by watching him but if you didn't know
    the horse, you couldn't tell.
    
    Kris
    

    re .2 
    
    I'm not exactly sure how it affected her, but with just the heartbar
    shoe no pads, she seemed fine.  The Eggbar shoe didn't seem to give
    her enough support and my farrier doesn't like to use any type of
    pads anymore. I wouldn't say this is a recommended treatment for
    all horses, but it works for her.  Just a sidenote to anyone who
    uses a heartbar, the length of shoe covering the frog is extremely
    important. If just a tiny bit too long extending over the frog it
    can do a tremendous amount of damage. When using the heartbars,
    its best to have them reset often whether using them for founder
    or navicular.
                
    Marianne
    

    I have a 15 yr old mare, who I suspect has unilateral navicular. 
    At the moment it only effects her on very hard ground when 
    jumping, I use bute only for 3 days maximum and it seems to clear up.
    I also do dressage, but bute also illegal for dressage, so I have
    to be very careful when I choose my shows.  I will take the plunge
    soon to get an X-ray (it's not the money but I don't really want
    to know yet).  I will rethink my strategy when and if the diagnosis
    is confirmed.
    
    

    
    When is bute illegal for dressage?  Dressage shows under
    the auspices of AHSA allow bute (and Banamine).  (Recently there 
    is a limit as to how much--decided on at the 1989 convention.)
    
    However, Bute is NOT allowed in FEI shows (like the Olympics
    and World Championships and CCI's)
    
    
    

    
    Bute is NOT allowed under CEF (Canadian Equestrian Federation) dressage
    rules.  Last time I rode in the UK it wasn't allowed there either.
    But it is legal (in very minute amounts) for the dressage in 3 day
    events.  They are talking about changing and allowing it for staight 
    dressage very soon.  Therefore if anyone is coming up here to compete
    be warned.  There are several other anomalious (sp?) rules at
    recognized shows (CEF or AHSA) as a number of us used to compete in
    both US and Canada regularly, and occasional OOPses used to occurr. 

    I have a 13 yr old mare that was diagnosed with navicular 2 yrs
    ago. My farrier started out with the least corective shoeing.
    It took about 3 shoeings before we found what made her the most
    comfortable. Wedge pads didn't work with her. She now wears custom
    made bar shoes with flat pads, and does well with them. I very rarely
    give her bute, but I have chosen not to and only use her for a 
    pleasure horse. I have another horse to ride so I can give her a
    break. She always hated the ring and liked trail riding anyway,
    so now she gets her way. Maybe she's just faking it?   ;') 
    
    
                                             gina
    

    A question from someone who has never had to deal with it. What
    is navicular? I can tell from the disscussion it is a problem within
    the feet but I don't really know what it is, what causes it, and
    is there a way to prevent it?
    Curious,
    Sandy
    

    
    
    This is from THE ILLUSTRATED VETERINARY ENCYCLOPEDIA FOR HORSEMEN.
    
    
    Navicular diesease is a progressive series of degenerative changes
    involving the navicular bone, navicular bursa and deep flexor tendon.
    
    On two sides, the navicular bone meets the coffin bone and short
    pastern bone (much like a wedge) to form the coffin joint.  this
    small bone is bound in the back by the deep flexor tendon.  the
    navicular bursa lies between the the navicular bone and the deep
    flexor tendon, and is simply a small sack filled with synovial
    fluid.  The purpose of the bursa is to reduce friction between two
    surfaces that rub against eeach other; in this case, the opposite
    surfaces of the navicular bone and the deep flexor tendon.
    
    
      Bursitis of the navicular bursa is the beginning of navicular
    desiease.  This is an inflammation of the bursa which causes it
    to produce excess synovial fluid, resulting in swelling.  As the
    diesease progresses, the navicular bone erodes on the rear surface
    facing the tendon.  In some cases, the small fibers of the tendon
    are torn by the roughened edges of the bone, causing progressive
    destructoion of the tendon's surface.  Bone spurs may develope on
    the navicular bone.  This entire process progresses very slowly.
    
    The exact cause of navicular disease is not known, but several factors
    can contribute to it.  Faulty conformation (paticularly small feet,
    straight pasterns, and too straight shoulders) increases concussion
    on the navicular bone.  By way of the coffin joint, weight is
    transmitted to the navicular bone, forcing it firmly against the
    tendon, often resulting in navicular bursitis-the first stage of
    the disease.  
    
    Many types of improper trimming and shoeing have been blamed fot
    the developement of navicular disease.  Examples are: 1)Heels too
    high and heels too low (because the break the angle of the pastern
    axis),  and 2) any sort of trimming and shoeing that interferes
    with the normal action of the frog and quarters.
    
      Strenuous work such as racing, roping, cutting, and barrel racing,
    especially when performed on hard surfaces, make a horse more subject
    to navicular disease.  Nutritional and hormonal influences are also
    thought to be contributing factors.
    
      In the eary stages, the navicular bursa can be injected with
    corticosteroids to temporarily reduce inflammation.  The results
    are varied.  
     Corrective shoeing is used as a means of theapy throught the course
    of the disease.  The primary metods are to shorten the toe and elevate
    the heel,  to reduce pain and pressure in the heel region. roller
    shoes and rocker shoes are normally used to shorten the toe and
    help the foot break over faster.  Heels are more commonly raised
    with caulks, or the branches of the shoe are rolled back for more
    heel height.  In advanced cases, a bar shoe must be used to protect
    the frog.  Shoeing as a theraputic measure has only temporary
    beneficial results, and much depends on the severity of the disease.
    
    Anti-inflammatory drugs are also used to help alleviate the pain.
    Bute is an example.
    
    A posterior digital neurectomy is a surgical procedure to cut the
    nerves that give feeling to this part of the foot.  This operation
    is usually considered to be a last resort because there are possible
    serious side effects which can be even more painful than the disease
    itself.  
      
      These side effects include the formation of a neuroma (tumor or
    mass growing of the nerves), which usually requires another operation
    for removal.    The horse begins to use the foot nomally following
    a neurectomy and this use can tear the deep flexor tendon loose
    from the navicular bone and the weak tendon ruptures.  There is
    no know treatment for this after effect.  Another possible side
    effect is the loss of the entire hoof wall.  This ocassionally happens
    when additional surgury to remove a neuroma is required.  Current
    theories speculate that either the loss of nerve suppky, or efforts
    of the nerve to regenerate,close off the blood supply to the foot,
    resulting in gangrene and subsequent sloughing of the hoof wall.

I'm currently vetting a horse and I'm trying to decide whether to
buy the horse based on the following dispute.  The vet I had to the
vetting, claimed he saw "NORMAL" changes in the navicular bones of
both front feet.    When the x-rays were sent to my vet, my vet said there
is no such thing as normal changes.   The x-rays are now on their way
to Cornell, where I'm sure the radiologist will say "Yes, there are changes
there."  So now what?  This vet I had do the vetting in NY, graduated
at the top of his class from Tufts, and he won't even TALK about the
navicular changes as being a problem.  He said they were normal and acted
like there was nothing to discuss.  He said it was what he would EXPECT
to find in a 4 year old and that he PASSED the horse.

Is anyone familiar with this as being a controversy between vets?  It
seems like every horse I have my vet (Dr Combs in Peterborough NH) look
at, he finds navicular changes and fails the vetting, while other vets
(who I don't know), have passed them.   This has been happening to me
for YEARS.  I think I've turned down 6 horses over the years due to
navicular changes found in one or both front feet.  All the horses I've
ever vetted have been young... between 3-5 years old.   One of the horses
I turned down about 10 years ago is winning Horse of the Year awards and
I read about him in my dressage magazines. 

The thing that worries me a little is even if I'm convinced that the
changes are normal, and buy him, will someone else buy him from ME if
I need to sell him someday?   

I would really appreciate feedback on this, especially if anyone has info
about what the 'latest' ideas are about this in vet schools.  I need
to make a decision fairly soon.

Melinda

    Hi Melinda, as a Quarterhorse owner for many years I am concerned
    with any Navicular Changes. I have had horses with Navicular, some
    with no problems. I would never condone buying or taking on a horse
    with Navicular to anyone who didn't know what they were up against. 
    During the years I have encountered *SO* many opposing opinions about
    the subject from vets that I don't rely solely on their opinions. A
    Vets knowledge on this subject can be so limited, for them to give you
    a statement as to the future of the animal is almost ridiculous.  If 
    this horse is one that you truly believe to be a serious prospect and
    are being pulled in different directions my suggestion would be to not
    go to a Vet for an answer, but to a specialist such as Myron McLean.
    I believe it to be very similar to any problem I may have, If its a
    general problem or checkup I go to a Physician, if its more serious
    you go to a specialist. I wouldn't want a Physician treating a major
    heart condition.. My .02 worth.  Best of Luck!
    
    Marianne
    

    I have heard vets talk about "normal navicular changes" by which they
    generally seem to mean "normal ageing process". I don't believe that
    you will resolve your uncertainty until you put things in context for
    whomever you are asking questions.
    
    What do you intend to do with this horse? What is the asking price?
    Horses can go lame for reasons other than navicular so just
    concentrating on that doesn't get you a sound horse for life. You can
    thank the litigation happy great American public, the avaricious legal
    profession and paranoid insurance industry for the fact that no
    professional will now give an unqualified unambiguous answer.
    
    It ends up being your decision. 

I decided not to buy the horse showing navicular changes.  Thank you
for all your replies. I'm still looking for another dressage prospect
so if someone knows of an outstanding prospect for sale please let me
know.  I'm also looking at confirmed 2nd/3rd level horses under the
age of 8 (also must be a gelding and over 16.2 hands -- no TB's)

Melinda

    
    Melinda,	
    
    		I know this may be a bit late, but Gail Harrington
    of Black Magic Farms in South Hampton (by Amesbury,MA) has a 
    nice selection of big, beautiful dressage horses.  She special-
    izes in dressage and all of her horses are wonderful to ride.
    If you are still looking I would reccommend looking her up.
    
    * Marti *  
    
    Please do not send a mail msg, I am borrowing Diane's acct.)
    

	Thank you for suggesting a place to shop for a dressage horse,
	but I already purchased a new horse last September.

	Melinda

    
                 <<< DELNI::WORK$01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]EQUITATION.NOTE;2 >>>
                      -< - Equitation Notes Conference - >-
================================================================================
Note 1243.0                         Navicular                          2 replies
DYO780::AXTELL "Dragon Lady"                         23 lines  26-APR-1990 16:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This must be my day for new topics.
    
    Yesterday we found out my SO's horse (and my 4th level mount) has
    the big "n" - Navicular.  40% bone loss and he shouldn't have been
    walking... but he didn't even look unsound.  Honest.  Actually he
    went to the vet for something totally unrelated.  The poor beast
    was "nerved" in both front feet.  
    
    We've had Kenora for about a year - bought him from a friend who
    bought him from a trainer we both used.  My friend sold him because
    he stopped on crosscountry.  They both supposedly had xrays done
    and no navicular was present. Now I know you don't loose 40% of
    bone mass out of the clear blue sky - and I'm not real sure I'll
    ever speak to either of these people again.  Not because of the
    navicular, but because IF I had known I would not have used him
    as we did (jumping and eventing).  It hurts my heart to think I
    he may have been in pain all this time.
    
    This note is for discussion of how to cope with navicular horses.
    
    -maureen
    
   
================================================================================
Note 1243.1                         Navicular                             1 of 2
CARTUN::MISTOVICH                                    18 lines  26-APR-1990 17:17
                      -< Not navicular, but may help you >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Maureen,  my last horse developed severe ringbone inside of 1 year. 
    Basically, I had her vetted when I put her up for sale so that I would
    know that she was sound.  She had a very slight positive flexion in one
    ankle, which my vet stated she didn't think would be any problem. 
    She'd had a serious injury to the hind leg on the same side the
    previous year and we chalked up the positive flexion due to the extra
    stress the front leg had taken during her recuperation.
     
    Almost exactly one year later (with the same vet) she had very strong 
    positives in both ankles and x-rays showed ringbone. 
    Within 6 months later (new owner/different vet--they bought her in
    spite of what my vet told them) it was much worse.
    
    I don't know that much about navicular, but apparently some things can
    deteriorate very rapidly.
    
    Mary
    
================================================================================
Note 1243.2                         Navicular                             2 of 2
BOOVX1::MANDILE                                       6 lines  27-APR-1990 09:36
                  -< Wish I knew more about this subject... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Where I used to board, they had a horse with "rotating navicular".
    I wish I knew more about this, but maybe next time the vet comes
    I'll ask a few questions.  He's the same vet from that barn.
    
    
    Lynne

    How do I get a hold of Myron McLean (i.e. Phone number)? Would he have
    to redo the x-rays my vet did? Where is Myron located?
    
    Thanks, Ania