Conference noted::equitation

    
    
    Try to get a copy of "Legal Hassels with HOrses".  A paperback.
    Some feedstores have it.
    
    This book states that horses are considered an attractive
    nuisance.  An attractive nuisance is anything that is attractive
    (and potentially dangerous) espescially to child that don't
    know better, BUT IS NATURAL, not manmade.  To give an example,
    a pool is manmade and you are responsible for a child's injury
    even if they are tresspassing because they may not know what
    tresspass is.  However, if the child got hurt in a brook or
    pond on your property you are not responsible because you are
    not responsible for having this body of water there.
    
    Therefore, if a child wanders into your horse corral, horses
    are part of nature and the damage caused to the child would
    not be your fault.  If however, they fell off your fence (which
    is manmade) you could be held responsible.
    
    As far as I know this law hasn't changed.  Simply put, if it's
    on your property and a natural part of nature, it is considered
    an attractive nuisance and you are not responsible for injury.
    But if it's an object that is manmade, therefore not natural,
    you are.
    
    As for a horse breaking out and going onto someone else's property,
    you are liable for damage and injury, no if's, and's, or but's
    about that.  However, I have a few questions about this as well
    and maybe someone out there can answer them.
    
    1.  I am insured to $1 million for any damage caused by my
        horses but I believe this only covers me on my own property.
        Or does it cover me off my property as well?
    
    2.  If someone else let your horse out while you were away,
        would you still be responsible for any damage or injury
        caused?
    
    

    	re. the part about the horse(s) getting out, it depends on where
    you live. In Colorado, you are required to have a reasonably
    substantial fence. That's defined as fencing that can reasonably
    be expected to contain the animals. For cattle, this indicates
    a minimum of three strands of barbed wire on sturdy posts.
    	Here, your neighbors are expected to fence out any strays.
    This means that if you have good fences/gates, and somehow your
    horses get out in spite of it, (i.e. someone lets them out), if
    your neighbors sustain damage because they have no fence, you aren't
    liable.
    	This law, however, even in this state is often preempted by
    local (read city) laws. The bottom line is, check with a local
    lawyer.
    
    	George
    

    This is an interesting discussion. Linda, does your
    book cover only Massachusetts?  I remember reading an article
    in one of the horse magazines about "If they sue, do you win
    or lose?"  The case of the child coming to your property
    was one of the specifics mentioned -- the owner lost.  The jury
    felt the horse owner should have better protected the neighborhood
    children from harm (in the case, a horse kicked).  Actually, they
    had quite a few interesting cases (all of which I could have 
    pictured happening) and in almost all of them, the horse owner
    lost.  The article specifically mentioned to make sure you got a
    good lawyer if for no other reason, most jurors think horse people
    are rich and can afford lawsuits.  (Guess the majority of us work
    just for fun!!)  I'll look for the article tonight, but it may
    take me awhile as I'm one of those people that don't throw magazines
    away, and it make take me awhile to find it.
    
    Dawn

    
    
    
    	My husband and I have a real problem that some of you
    	noters might be able to help with..
    
    	Yesterday I arrived home to see my horses run around
    	in the pasture.  Then I noticed that the next door
    	neighbor's grandson was in the middle of my pasture
    	sitting in a tree (he wasn't doing anything but, 
    	sitting there).. He is 10 years old.  I was so angry
    	I told him to get the H*LL out of the tree and get home
    	
    	Then I went to over to his grandparents and she is
    	very disabled and told her that he was in my yard..
    	
    	You know what she said "he does it all the time", and
    	we've told him to stay out but, you know kids.. 
    
    	I was so angry that I said in nice words I don't want
    	him in my pasture that he could get really hurt. 
    
    	She said we've told him.. and I will tell his father
    	when he comes an picks them up.
    
    	I really like these people but, I don't know how
    	to go about getting this kid to stay out of my pasture.
    
    	I am cutting the tree down this weekend.
    
    	HELP........

  You shouldn't have to cut the tree down just because of a bothersome kid,
  espacially if you don't have many trees in your pasture (shade for your 
  horses in the heat of the summer.)

  Maybe you can post your property "NO TRESPASSING".

  I'd talk to the kid's parent(s) first, and explain the dangers involved
  (obviously the grandmother can't/won't control the boy).

  If that doesn't work then try the police.  Maybe if you explain your 
  situation, they can come and escort the boy home and give him a little
  "warning".

   You mentioned the horses were running.  Is the boy throwing stuff at your
   beasties??  If so, Bypass the first two suggestions and catch him and wring
   his little neck!!  (Just kidding!!) 8^).

   Good Luck-

   Simone

    Posting the land will NOT solve your problem. Legally, horses(like
    swimming pools) are categorized as "atractive nuisances" meaning that
    it's YOUR responsibility to keep trespassers out. Simple signs will not
    keep you out of trouble if the little ^%$&*^%$&(* gets hurt while he is
    trespassing on your property.
    
    IMHO, you should persue this aggressively with parents, police and
    lawyers before the brat gets hurt.

    One of the most wonderful things about electric fences....keeps the
    brats on the other side of the fence. How hard would it be to hotwire
    the pasture?
    

    ....or make it more attractive for the kid to visit while you're
    there.  At least you could supervise interactions.

    Why not put shockwire on the tree?  I have heard of
    this being used to keep horses (chimps, too! At the Zoo)
    from eating the shade trees in the fields.
    
    
    Lynne
    

We have electric fence around the pasture.  However, we have a gate on that
side of the pasture.  The kid, of course, knows how to open this gate.  It
is not really a gate, it is the insulators that allow you to unlatch the
wire.

We are thinking of putting a metal gate in place of the opening described
above.  If we then put a lock on that, we still have our access, without
the kid getting through.  He would have to go a bit further down the hill
and crawl under the bottom strand of electric wire.  There is no guarentee
he will not do this, but how far must we go?

If we put this "shock" wire on the tree, won't the horses lose access to
the tree for rubbing and the like?

Ed..

    Re: Shock wire
    
    Unfortunately, the shockwire will keep animals from
    touching the tree, too!
    
    

    I think a gate with a lock sounds like a good idea.  People who have
    swimming pools have fences with lockable gates, and I think this gives
    some defense legally if a trespasser is injured.  
    
    -ellie

	In my town, Lunenburg, we have a pool in the back yard. We have small
children next door and the building inspector told us this. Your pool must have
a fence with a lock. The lock is defined as what they call a complicated latch.
A complicated latch is one that you must lift up and slide to one side. It does
not mean that you need a pad lock but one that takes some thought on how to 
operate. I then asked, what happens if the kids next door climb the fence and
jump in the pool and go down for the count. He said that if my fence was in 
complience then the parents would be prosocuted (MAYBE) on gounds of negligence.

	You can also go to your local judge and get a restraining order against 
him coming into the coral. If he does then the parents will be held in contempt.

	I would also put no trespassing signs around the coral every 16 feet. I'm
not really sure if the law says 16 feet but thats what I remember.

	-Steve-

    Another option, if the trunk of the tree goes high enough, is to put
    the shockwire high enough up that the horses won't normally encounter
    it, but a climber might.
    
    kind of an awful thought, though, wiring a tree against people. i
    assume your primary concern is liability in our litigation-happy
    society, in which case a "complicated latch" and a restraining order
    should give you the protection you need without having to resort to
    extreme measures/expense. in addition (unless your horses were running
    around because of the kid throwing things at them or otherwise
    harassing them) you sounded in your initial note as if you didn't think
    he was doing much harm.
    
    the restraining order is a powerful tool, and it costs you nothing.
    were i in your shoes i'd be inclined to use it.
    
    regards,
    -cj

    note .8 (making friends with the kid) was probably the best advice
    ever. I was going to suggest stern methods but .8 stopped me and
    made me think. He would probably retaliate that could only make
    things uncomfortable and perhaps escalate the situation. 
    
    He's probably quite bored with his grandmother and would jump at an
    opportunity to feel valuable.  You might make him your ally, ask his
    help inform you if he sees a problem, whatever, you could probably
    think of something.  
    
    Sharon
    

    Be carefull of putting shockwire in the tree since if it can be proved
    that the child was attracted by the horses and climbed the tree to get
    a better look but was shocked and fell to his death, you may find
    youself in the unenviable position of a wrongfull death suit/criminal
    negligence proceeding.  I would persue disincentives as already
    discussed, parents, police etc.
    
    Bob
    

    Remember that if you decide to go the route of befriending the kid, his
    parents could still hold you responsible if he got hurt while on your
    property.
    
    Mary

Is our only effective option to get rid of the horses?  If this is the case,
then we will never be effective.  I am so sick of having to worry about
some punk kid getting hurt by breaking the law and trespassing on my
property.  This kid has not been invited and never will be.  I have no
plans on befriending this punk.  He may only be looking for attention,
but let him look elsewhere.

I find it very hard to believe that if a kid gets shocked in the tree and
falls to his death that I could at all be held liable.  The kid was
trespassing.  He has been warned.  His grandparents have been notified.
There is an electric fence around the whole pasture.  There are two strands
of barb-less wire around the whole pasture.  Short of putting a 6-foot
chain-link fence with barbed wire on top, there is no stopping anyone
who wants in.  I refuse to go to those lengths.

This is absolutely ridiculous.  We just want to be left alone to enjoy
our house, our dogs, and our horses.  It makes me really want to move
to where there are absolutely NO neighbors.

Ed..

    You should probably get some legal advice.  Having horses is probably
    equivalent to having a swimming pool -- you have something that kids
    are going to be attracted, and the law sees it as your responsibility
    to keep kids out so thay can't get hurt.  I guess the law in this case
    recognizes the fact that kids will be kids, even if they are definitely
    in the wrong when trespassing on your property.  Wire in the tree would
    be a reqal bad idea, unless it's there to prevent the horses from
    eating the tree.  If the kid got hurt and his family's lawyer got the
    idea that the wire was there just to give the kid a shock, you'd
    probably be in big trouble.  Scary to think about...   It sounds like a
    gate with a "complicated latch" might do the trick as far as liability
    if he does get hurt.  If you really want to keep him out -- and I would
    think that you do -- it sounds like a restraining order would do it. 
    Are you friends with these neighbors?  If you don't want to go that
    far, how about a padlock?  If you get a combination lock, you don;t
    have to worry about having keys with you...
    
    Good luck!
    
    -ellie

    
    
    	The horses have plenty of shade. over 12 pine Trees' that
    	are so high that the kid cannot climb.  I am going
    	to cut down the tree this weekend.. 
    
    	The next thing I am going to do is talk with my neighbor
    	and tell him that to save us from any problems I am going
    	to put a restraining order on his grandson.  
    
    	Ed and I are going to put two new 10 ft gates up and a
    	extra wire near the bottom of the fence so that he 
    	can't skimmy under it.
    	
    	I will also tell the neighbor that I am doing all this
    	just to keep his grandson out of the pasture.
    
    	It's just so maddening.. that I should go to all this 
    	expense just to keep some one off my property.
    
    
    	Recently, MAX our 1 and half year old baby jumped the
    	fence.. she's only 14 hands and she jumped 6 ft fence, 
    	I ended up paying 50.00 to the neighbor for damages.. 
    	If I find this little jerk had anything to do with it... 
    
    	Donna

    Are you sure she jumped it and wasn't let out by the kid?
    
    Kathy

    I'm not at all surprised to hear of a baby jumping like that. 
    Those\little critters can jump anything!  When you figure they have
    almost as much leg muscle as an adult horse, but only a fraction of the
    weight, it's not a mystery.  I had a two-week old filly jump a 4 foot
    barricade

    After the little critters are weaned and to small to be turned out 
    with the big guyes, we put them in a small paddock near the house.
    (It's usually 1 baby per year)
    
    For some reason, every year the baby has managed to jump the fence to 
    be with the big guyes.  Now it's never a graceful jump, but they make it
    over.  We happened to witness one such jump when someone went by the
    paddock and beeped their horn to scare the filly, it did and she 
    went over, and rolled over and over....she was fine afterwards....but
    she made it over the fence.
    
    Since you're not willing to befriend the boy, I suggest talking w/
    a laywer and getting it spelled out.  Sometimes a little kindness goes
    a long way. 
    
    I would be very afraid of retailaition if I told the people I was putting a 
    restraining order and the like on the kid.  I think all restraining
    orders do is p*ss of the other party.

    
    
    	Absolutly... 
    
    	My neighbor was watching them because they were running around
    	and was sure that something was bothering them.. 
    
    	She saw her jump.. I couldn't believe it etheir.. 
    
    	then she turned around and tried to jump back in but,
    	couldn't do it.. 
    
    	She hasn't done it since..
    
    
    	Oh. Ya..
    
    	I called the chelmsford police they are going to come over
    	tonight and discuss some possiblities. and they said sometimes
    	when a kid is talked to the police it scares the
    	*U*(&(*&  out of them.
    
    

    I came home the other night to find a gate left open!
    (Thank goodness it wasn't one to the paddocks..but
    I know someone was up there while I wasn't home....): )
    
    School vacation.....blahhhhh!
    
    Lynne
    
    p.s.  I think removing the tree (too bad, tho') and putting
    a restrainng order on the kid is the best route to take,
    at this point.  

    I like the idea of having the police talk to the kid.  It can give them
    a good scare.  I would also talk to the parents -- leave the anger at
    home, but make it clear to them that their child is trespassing and if
    this continues you may to take legal action.  Also make it clear to
    them that it's for their son's protection as well as yours.
    
    And if it happens even *once* after this, then go for the restraining
    order.
    
    No, you shouldn't have to go through all this, but then has any of your
    horses ever escaped and gotten onto someone elses lawn?  These things
    do happen.
    
    Mary

    
    
      Does anyone know the specific statues in MA that cover the 
      responsiblities of a horse owner to keep their horses off other
      people's property ?. 
    
      I am having repeated difficulty with three horses owned by a neighbor
      that have easy access off their pasture onto my property.
    
      Discussions with the neighbor have produced very little change
      in the security of her pasture. 
    
      I am concerned about the safety of the horses, people and the 
      potential for damages.
    
      The police indicate it is a matter of either neighbor's cooperating
      or civil, rather than criminal law.
    
      Thanks,
    
      Chris

    You might point out that SHE is responsible for any damages that her
    horses cause to other people's property including any cars that might
    hit them should they get onto the road. She would also be liable for
    medical bills......If that don't scare the heck out of her...

    Geez, you'd think she'd be concerned enough about her horse's safety
    with them getting loose continually that she'd do something about it
    on her own accord. I hate hearing about owners like that!
    

    Gees, we had a neighbor that was letting a dog loose and we would just
    tye him up and call the dog catcher. Maybe you could catch the horses
    and call the ASPCA or Animal Care and Welfare if those groups exsist in
    your area. They can do a very good job at educating owners about thier
    responsibilities to the horses.
    

    The owner is responsible for any damage her horse(s) cause.
    Next time they get loose, and trespass on your property, send her 
    a bill for the damage done to your lawn, flowerbeds, or whatever....
    
                       * * *  B I L L * * *
    
            Replant 1/4 acre of lawm......$100
    
            Replace eaten Shrubs..........$50
    
    	   
    It will get the owners attention....Money issues always do!

    I heard once that you can charge someone up to $100 per footprint
    on your lawn!  That should be enough to make them keep their horses
    restrained!

remember, we're not lawyers, so check with your local enforcement officials
and a lawyer.  Laws may be different by town.

    
    
      Here's what little update I have.
    
      I realize that legal issues addressed properly would be addressed
      by an attorney. However, I have a little problem with paying legal
      fees to protect what I consider very basic and clear rights
      (your horse, your side of the fence, they damage - you pay, period).
      It was made clear to me from by police that is the one-line version
       of the law.
    
      There is also the hassle of making a trip to court a couple of times.
    
      Some towns have animal control officers to manage this type of
      problem. Unfortunately, mine town currently doesn't.
    
      Some towns have an office called 'fence walker', an antiquity from 
      colonial times, to determine responsibility for repairs, again
      West Brookfield currently doesn't.
    
      The MSCPA is concerned that the horses are fed, watered, sheltered
      and free of neglect/diseases. Unless they could see them on the
      loose, I doubt if they would consider them in danger.
    
      There has been some marginal repairs to the fence, however these
      mares are plenty rowdy, so I have a wait & see attitude regarding 
      the sturdiness of the fencing.
    
      I have written a letter to the horses' owner outlining the nature
      and duration of the existing problem and my next recourse, which will
      be to insist on cash payment for damages. This also starts a
      collection of documentation for the problem  (If that $100 per hoof
      print rule really exits - I'd be at a Mercedes dealership - IN
      Germany). 
      
      I have also learned that one of the horses is a boarder, if I could
      only find that owner, I'd burn up their ears !! 
    
      Now I'll hope for the best, the horses will be safe, my newly reseeded
      hayfield won't be an annex to their pasture, my front lawn won't
      get trashed and everyone lives happily forever and ever.