Conference noted::equitation

    Hi Maureen, does this mare canter/gallop in the pasture or on the
    longe? 
    
    Also, though many people do (unfortunately) use all the "war-gear"
    on western pleasure horses, there are still many others who take
    the extra time to create a nice, relaxed mover who works comfortably
    in a longer, lower frame coming from behind! 
    
    Good luck with this mare, she sounds like a sweetie!
    

    You haven't said what it is you would like to accomplish with her?
     Do you want a trail horse, or do you still plan to show, but not
    western pleasure?
    
    You will have to have this goal in mind before you can think about
    retraining.  Quiet trail rides are good, but you will have to go
    back to the ring eventually.  I would stop all attempts of cantering
    first to avoid goat gear.  A gait like that could very well do damage
    to her back, neck, shoulder and hip muscles.  If it were me I would
    do a small bit of ring work a few days a week on completely loose
    reins or do some longing first to get this mare to relax and loosen
    up.  I would avoid fancy equipment at first and aim at reworking
    her muscle structure and frame so that she begins to move more
    naturally.  By fancy equipment I mean side reins or bitting harness
    ect. I would wonder if such new things might cause her to resist,
    get all tense and sore and sour.  But again, I would have a goal
    in mind, and then backtrack to a program that will get the mare
    there.
    
    Good luck
    stephanie
    

    sometimes second reading gets results. Do I understand correctly
    that this mare will still be used for western pleasure?  If so,
    than I would still attempt to try backtracking to loosen her up
    at the walk and trot, get the hind end moving before asking for
    the canter.  Sounds like quite a project.
    
    stephanie
    

    what i would do no matter what you are goin to do to her, is of
    course move her out. in ref to the person that asked if the horse
    canter on a lungeline? proably not. anyway if you have room to go
    out and run her do so, you would be amazed. if she still gives you
    that goat canter, get her hi (hyper) and try and let her out. be
    prepared that she might always go back to that way of moving, and
    some are built that way and thats how they move? i really dont believe
    that but i have seen horses just starting out with that movement
    you are referring to.
    just broke a paint that moves that way, is a halter horse but they
    are thinking of pleasuring her.
    
    		wendy 
    

    
    You haven't said but I'm assuming that your mare is basically sound.
    I'd try some of Jack Meagher muscle massage to see if she is tied
    up any place. Jack and the people he has trained (Jane Sullivan)
    have go success with looseing tight muscles groups etc.
    
    My mare always moves better after a visit from Jack. Your mare might
    be more willing if she felt better.
    
    Nancy
    

    
    We tried a gallop last night.  Oh My!  We can goat at incredible
    speeds!  After about 20  minutes of this, shes finally gave in
    and moved like a real horse.  I think I'll wait to slow down the
    speed for a while.
    
    The mare is perfectly sound, trimmed properly, and reasonably well
    built.  Her legs are a bit short, which isn't helping matters at all.  
    In the field, she doesn't exactly move fluently, but its better than
    goat gear.
       
    She performs the same on a lunge as when ridden. I'm a little scared
    to try for a speed increase on the lunge - she doesn't look too
    balanced as it is.  Rein contact doesn't seem to affect matters
    either - she's got the most perfect/consistent headset I've seen
    in a long time.
    

    How's the trot?  Maybe some long and forward trot work would help
    encourage the mare to move forward more fluently.  Use some ground
    poles, one placed on the track on each long side, giving the horse
    something to think about and encoraging her to push with the hind
    end in stride over the pole.  Use a series of trotting poles 
    spreading them a little bit farther apart then normal to encourage
    her to reach and use the hind end.  Try cantering a single pole the
    same as you do at the trot.  If all goes sucessful over a period of
    time try two poles spaced at one or two strides apart or where the
    horse is comfortable at the canter.  Get a little creative put
    poles on each long side, maybe one on the diagonal.  Just becareful
    to take your time and not overface the mare with too much at once.
    It sounds like maybe someone used the quick fix methods with her 
    already.  Good Luck, keep us posted, it is always nice to hear about
    progress.
    
                                   Wendy

From the sound of it, it seems like this mare was trained quite well
    for what they intended to get out of her. I have seen alot of quick
    fixes, they tend to show up in a non consistent performance or thru
    different acts of temperment.  If the mare is nice, quiet and even
    tempered, it probably wasn't very hard for them to get her to move
    like that.  My gelding was bred for reining. He too has short legs,
    and a much shorter stride.  Bringing him over to english was fairly
    easy. I worked alot over groundrails, stretching them out a little
    farther than he would have really liked them. (It worked great!)
    I worked at the canter and hand gallop frequently with alot of 
    collection and impulsion from my leg.  I worked alot of different
    bending aids also, when I first started he was very stiff, so used
    to riding with no impulsion and on a very loose rein, he found it
    very easy to get lazy and end up on his forehand.  Once he realized
    how to work in a more collected frame, I could lengthen him onto
    a nice loose rein, but not lose any impulsion or drive. I ride him
    both seats, after one or the other (if worked regularly and not
    let sit for long periods of time) he will accept the other readily
    without alot of rehashing.  Unfortunately he still is built short
    and has a QH gait, never will make a "Hunter", but we've overcome
    the goat stride!!
    
    Marianne
    

    In reference to #5, it would be a good idea to have Jane Sullivan
    look at the mare.  She did a super job on our English Pleasure Mare
    who wasn't lifting the same on both sides in the front.
    She improved her movement, not totally; however, it helped to stretch
    the muscles out until we have an even lift on both front legs.
    
    Good luck
    

    Thanks for the help.
    
    Once she settles down to the idea of working again, we're going
    to tackles cavaletti (the ground poles, you mentioned).  And I'll
    probablt teach her to jump while I'm at it.  Everything else in
    th barn jumps, including the walker; so I suppose she can too.
    
    In the meantime, does anybody make shock absorbers for horses? 
    Just kidding.
    
    Maureen
    

    Shock absorbers -- actually, yes!  have you seen the ads for pads
    and cushion inserts that go between the pads and hoof?

    I HAVE ALL READY HAD THE EXPERIENCE OF DOING WHAT YOU ARE TRYING
    TODO!! WHAT I DID WAS GO TO A PLAIN SNAFFLE AND A FORWARD SEAT SADDLE
    SO MY MARE DIDNT QUITE KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. THEN WE WORKED AT A
    TROT WITH LOTS OF LEG AND LOTS OF GROUND POLES EVENTUALLY WORKING
    INTO ABOUT 2 FOOT JUMPS. AFTER LEARNING TO EXTEND OUT OF THE VERRRY
    SLOW JOG SHE HAD, CANTERING PROPERLY WAS A BREEZE. THE WHOLE PROCEEDURE
    TOOK ABOUT 4 MONTHS OF HARD WORK.
                                         GOOD LUCK,
                                         SANDY
                     

    Since this is a note on training/western riding, I'm putting
    my request for input here...
    
    This is the first year of extensive showing I have been able to do with 
    my horse.  I know it's the first year, but when can I expect him to 
    start improving? (he's been out 7 weekends in a row!)  His trailering
    manners have improved, but he is a basket case at the shows.  Part of
    the problem is that his stablemate comes along to show at the same
    time, and he has a serious attachment to him.  Separation anxiety is
    what I would call it!  He is fine as long as we are moving, but once
    we have to stand in the center of the ring, the dancing and calling for
    his *lover* (: begins.  No amount of correction will get his mind off
    of it and back onto the business at hand.  Next show I plan to take him 
    alone, to see if that improves things.  
    He is also excessively nervous, and literally chomps the bit like he
    has a wad of bubble gum in his mouth.  This continues from the moment
    it's put in, until the moment it comes out.  I have tried all the
    suggestions mentioned by the trainer (get the excess weight off him, 
    leave him in his stall with a bit in, let him eat & drink with it, use
    a flash or fig 8 to close his mouth) with some "slight"  improvement if 
    we are at home.....But, as soon as we go elsewhere, the chomping starts. 
    I mean chomping to the point where his head is moving all over the
    place, he is so bad.....he looks like hell in the show ring.....  
    Lunging him before the show works off some of the nervous energy, but
    the constant mouthing of the bit has got me to the point of going out
    of my mind!
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Lynne  (Showing Western, BTW)
    
    

    I would hold out hope that not having the buddy along will help, I
    learned my own lesson about that one a few weeks ago. We brought my
    mare along to a show the my gelding was entered in, because he trailers
    much better with her along. BIG mistake. He was fine until he went in
    the ring and SHE panicked outside the ring, hollering for him
    constantly. This upset him, he began dancing around and hollering back.
    This horse who has in the past pinned so consistently and won the
    majority of his pleasure classes got a judges comment of "Hot!". That
    was certainly the first time anyone has ever called Ck that before! :-)
    (not that he didn't earn it, he was a real menace that day). We ended
    up loading the mare back onto the trailer, out of earshot fortuneatly,
    and he settled down enough to earn a 6th in his last class. Give taking
    him alone a try first, you may be pleasantly surprised! Good luck...you
    certainly are ambitious to go out 7 weeks in a row, Id be exhausted!
    :-)
    

    Hi Lynne-
    
    Boy can I relate!
    
    There is a nice morgan gelding at my barn that is attached to Jesse
    and another mare at my barn.  and it dosen't help that the two mares
    are attached to him and each other.  
    
    My mare is also quick to become friends (as long as she is the boss)
    with any horse she's trailered with.  She will become unglued the
    second the trailer buddy is out of sight (they actually have to be tied
    on the same side of the trailer).  It is real annoying.
    
    The first schooling show I went to, the mogan gelding came along as
    well.  Big mistake!  Both horses screamed for each other all day. 
    While they were in the classes, all you could hear was the two of them
    screaming.  Talk about embarassing.
    
    I had tied her out to the trailer (she ties like a charm) to watch my
    friend on her morgan, and I was called out becasue my lunatic mare
    was charging around, loose, screaming for her buddy.  No one could 
    get near her.  I caught her and she calmed right down.  But it was a
    long day.
    
    Sorry to be long winded, but what I've learned is that when going 
    to a show, she goes alone.  It isn't worth the time, aggrevation or 
    money spent to have her become unglued.  By herself, she is a dream.
    We have been doing real well.
    
    My instructor claims that the more shows we do, the better she'll be, 
    and I've seen proof that it is true.  SHe now will drink or eat at an
    overnite show.  I may be tempted to trailer her with another horse,
    someday, but for now she goes alone.
    
    BTW - what shows are you doing?
    
    Michele

    Re .15 -
    
    I have been hitting any adult W/T show I can find, along with
    taking him to the 2 Gymkhana club shows that I belong to!
    The look on his face was comical when he saw the lightboard
    running our time during the barrels...He stopped dead around
    barrel 2 when he came face to face with it....our time was
    54 seconds! (giggle)  Of course, I'm only doing the stuff at
    a trot, but the next week we improved our time to 40 seconds! (;
    
    Re .14 - Tired?  Who, me? (;  That's why this weekend is a
    "no-show!" (; (-8
    
    L-

    You could try giving him some B1 and Thiamin, it really helps
    calm nervous horses.

    We have this difficulty with 2 of our 3 horses! If they go to a show or
    clinic with company, they fret and worry anytime they're not in
    each others sight. The third horse could care less! She'll go anywhere,
    anytime, alone or in company and hardly ever makes so much as a nicker! 
    
    One of the 2 "herd-bound" critters is much better when she goes alone.
    The other can be good but sometimes is worse because he's COMPLETELY
    separated from the herd.
    
    Give trailering/showing alone a try. It might help.

    re.
    
    the twins :*)
    
    
    if they have stalls close together ,or paddock, whatever 
    separtate them.
    
    Hes fretting cuase he has nothing else to do, tire him out and the more 
    he does this , work him more.. or another approach is not to take his 
    buddy and go away for the weekend and let him depend on you.
    
    
    		wendy o'
    

    Unfortuneatly, in my case and Im sure in many other peoples, seperating
    two horses who live together is not always possible. Myself, boarding
    one out is too expensive to be practical, and it's impossible for two
    horses to live in my set up ...small two stall barn, one large paddock
    adjoining it and a mid-sized sand outdoor ring right next to that....to
    both live there without constant contact. My two aren't THAT bad,
    though, they can be seperated easily enough, if you are willing to
    listen to screaming, and oddly enough, when one goes out on a trail
    ride alone, only the one that is left behind carrys on, the one going
    out rarely answers, and the one left behind settles down after about
    20 minutes of fence running and noice-making. Too bad classes at shows
    are shorter than 20 minutes long each..:-)
    

    I'm not sure if this is the right note to enter my question in, but
    here goes.  My horse has had good training.  She knows leg queues very
    well and does a nice sliding stop, etc.  She neck reins well, also. 
    Her temperament is often bullheaded (my fault) and she is smart. 
    Recently I took a riding lesson and learned how to "collect" the horse
    (keep it's head low by applying even pressure with the legs and gently
    pulling the reins until head is in position, then letting go).  This
    keeps the horse under control, especially when running which is what
    Susie and I have trouble with.  She wants to go one way, I want to go
    another.  All her life she has been ridden western by children.  She is
    about 12-15 years old.  My question is this, do all western horses get
    trained to be collected, and can a horse forget it if it has never been
    done by subsequent owners?  
    
    She jumps around and wildly throws her head when I try it.  It's almost
    if she is confused about whether I want her to back up or run.  Also, I
    would like to try a tie down on her but don't want to spend any more
    money on her.  Can I just leave the halter on under her bridle and
    attach a cord from the bottom of the halter to the ring on her girth?

    I used to ride western as a kid but my recent experience with that seat
    is extremely limited. So, my comments should be taken as general rather
    than coming from a stock seat expert.
    
    If this horse has been ridden western mostly by kids, it's unlikely
    that she was ever really taught collection. Horses don't usually forget
    things like that. From your description, it sounds like she was *not*
    trained for collection and is a bit confused by it all.
    
    Teaching a horse the basics of collection is esay enough for a moderately 
    experienced rider. I'd recommend that you get a copy of a book called
    "Make the Most of Your Horse"(see note 169.37) and use it as a training
    guide.
    
    A tie down won't solve your problems. Although gadgets sometimes *hide*
    a problem, they rarely solve anything.
    
    John

    
    	If she's tossing her head when you apply pressure to the bit, 
    	you need to have a couple fo things checked before you proceed:
    
    	1] Teeth. If her teeth are sharp you are hurting her when you ask
    	her to collect. She will associate it with pain very quickly. 
    
    	2] Bit. Does it fit her? Is the curb too tight? Does she hate the
    	bit? Have you tried her in a snaffle/mild bit to see if she will 
    	collect?
    
    	I just took my horse from a severe curb bit to a snaffle and I had
    	to work for about three weeks before he understood the concept of 
    	collection and being on the bit. Now he looks for the bit right
   	away.
    

    Her teeth seem healthy.  She passed her vet-check with flying colors
    and I assume that her teeth were properly checked.  She rarely argues
    with the bit when being ridden otherwise.
    
    About fitting the bit to her, I never knew there was such a thing. 
    Until now I thought a bit was a bit.  I guess that is a good place to
    start.  The curb seems to be O.K.  It hangs loosely under her chin and
    when she is all put together I can fit my fingers easily between her
    chin and the chain.  I once tried a snaffle without a caveisson and
    wound up fighting her head through the duration of our ride.  Her mouth
    was wide open the whole time.  She doesn't show that type of difficulty
    with a curb.  How should the bit be fitted?

    
    	My first suggestion would be that you work with an instructor on
    	this, if you can and if you aren't already. I thought my horse was
    	responding to the bit extremely well when he was on the curb bit,
    	until it was pointed out to me that he was very stiff in the neck
    	and jaw and often tossed his head, if only slightly, at cues. It
    	soon became apparent that he was responding so well because it IS
    	a severe bit so he didn't have much of a choice, and he HATED every
    	minute of it, because the bit hurt him. I think any horse will
    	spend a good part of their first experience with a snaffle by
    	trying to aviod it, which is easy to do (open the mouth and throw
    	the head up). It takes work to get them to accept the bit and work
    	off of it. I agree that a noseband would be a great help.
    
    	All that said, I am not going to tell you how to fit a bit, because
    	I'm not an expert on it... There are a lot of variations of
    	palette height, bar width, mouth width, etc... I'm sure there's
    	someone else in here who knows much more about it than I do!
    	(Sandy?? are you listening??)
    
    	Sherry

    
    	Just one more comment - I have good friends who train western	
    	pleasure and reining horses, mainly QH's, and all of them are 
    	trained in a snaffle... I don't know what the regulations about
    	showing with a snaffle are (if that's a concern to you?).

    Get some first hand expert advice from an instructor if you can.
    
    For an introduction to bit fitting etc so you understand what they're
    talking about, you can read:
    	1. Note 1765 General Bitting Discussions
    	2. Dr Deb Bennet's articles on bitting in EQUUS(April 1992 and 
    	   July 1993)
    	3. General De Carpentry's chapter on bitting in "Academic
    	   Equitation"
    	4. Elwyn Hartley Edwards book "Bitting: In Theory and Practice" 

    
    Can't show a QH in a snaffle unless it is a 2 or 3 yr old.
    
    

    At the lesson barn we school all our horses in snaffles and then 
    when it's time for the western classes, we just pop in the appropriate 
    western bit for the horse (it's not really as generic as it sounds, but it
    works for us).