| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
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| 822.1 | | CSC32::M_HOEPNER | | Tue Jun 07 1988 09:42 | 26 |
| Diagonals:
If you show equitation at most recognized breed shows, And if you show
in equitation at AHSA recognized shows (hunter and/or saddleseat) you
are expected to post on the OUTSIDE diagonal. I.E., you go up when the
outside front leg goes forward.
You will see people in pleasure classes posting on either diagonal
for various reasons. Normally people post on the outside, but there
are reasons to post on the inside.
Canter:
What you are talking about is diagonal versus lateral aids. I use a
combination of what you mentioned on greenies. Bend slightly to the
inside. Inside leg at the girth. Outside leg back to control the
haunches and a little push. On many horses you can eventually get to
maintaining slight bend to the inside and sitting on your outside seat
bone (with your legs in position of course).
But I have a friend whose horses all go with STRONG inside hand
and STRONG inside leg (and their haunches tend to swing out).
Who knows on this one?
Mary Jo
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| 822.2 | my thoery i use. | BAUCIS::MATTHEWS | i mite b blonde but i'm not stupid! | Tue Jun 07 1988 10:57 | 18 |
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diagonals:
i have always shown on the outside diag. (suppoed to be easier on
the horse for long distances?) huummmm. anyway i always look for
the should to come back is when i sit down.
leads.
i use the outside leg, if you have a trained horse he should arc
towards the center, the outside leg to controls the quarters from
swinging out too far and do drive him under himself.
and the inside leg to bend his rib cage and to keep his shoulder up.
this can be taken as far as using the outside seatbone and vibrating
the inside leg. the key is elevalating him.... geting him up
and light.
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| 822.3 | | TOMLIN::ROMBERG | Kathy Romberg DTN 276-8189 | Tue Jun 07 1988 13:45 | 24 |
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Trot: rise when the outside foreleg is going forward. This
places you, in your "up" position over the inside foreleg
(approximate center of gravity) which is flat on the ground. Horse
is more/better able to balance going around turns.
A counter-canter looks like a wrong lead canter. What it is is
a canter on the opposite lead while maintaining the bend that is
appropriate for the lead. In other words, in a right lead counter
canter, the horse is on the right lead, bent to the right, and
travelling to the left. Not a particularly easy thing to do in a
balanced manner. Many horses try to switch leads, break or cross
canter to avoid the effort required to balance.
For the canter aids, I use an inside bend, inside leg at the
girth, outside leg behind the girth. Beyond this I won't attempt to
help you, since this is what my horse and I are trying to prefect
right now! (His confusion in a western -> huntseat -> balance seat
transition!)
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| 822.4 | Flying changes | BOEHM::SCHLENER | | Tue Jun 07 1988 17:02 | 16 |
| I have trained my horse to expect a slight pull on the inside rein,
pressure with the inside leg (by the girth) and then pressure/tap
with the outside leg. This is so that the horse will be on a bend
when he/she/it starts to canter. This is the first step in teaching
a horse to do flying changes.
A counter canter is as someone mentioned before, basically doing
the canter on the "wrong" lead. However, it's another important
tool to use in teaching a horse the flying change. Most horses get
used to picking up the "correct" lead without really listening to
your aid. However, to get them used to listening, and then
eventually recognizing when you want them to change leads, you
begin to practice counter canters. In this way the horse will not
assume that you want him to pick up the "correct" lead, but instead
will follow your aid.
Cindy
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| 822.5 | Confuse-a-Horse | SMAUG::GUNN | | Tue Jun 07 1988 19:42 | 10 |
| There are as many "correct" ways to ride as there are people who teach
riding. There is no single "right" way. I have come across horses which
required completely different aids for the same thing, the canter for
example, because that's the way they had been trained.
The risk in having different people with different instructors ride the
same horse is that the horse will become totally confused and turn off
or fight back, depending on temprement. Neither you nor the horse are
not likely to make as much progress under these conditions. My advice
would be to choose the same instructor or different horses.
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| 822.6 | No Confusion in the UK | RDGCSS::RICHARDS | Mike. DTN 830-4533. Reading, UK. | Wed Jun 08 1988 05:42 | 37 |
| In the UK there is only one recognised way people are taught to
ride. This is controlled by the British Horse Society (BHS) which
is also the governing body for the Pony Club, which most children
join. This makes for consistency in learning to ride as all
instructors are qualified by the BHS.
Rising (posting) Trot.
On the trail it doesn't matter which diagonal to rise on, but it
must be changed on a regular basis (ie every 12 strides sit an extra
beat) this will ensure the horse uses the muscles on both sides
of his body evenly.
On a circle sit when the inside hind is on the ground, this is when
the horse is most balanced. To check- rise as the outside foreleg
is going forwards.
Canter
A horse is schooled to strike off in canter by turning his head
slightly to the inside, at the same time as applying the inside
leg to the girth for impulsion and the outside leg behind the girth
to control the quarters. This is normally done on a circle until
the horse has got the idea.
When a horse gets older and always strikes off correctly then the
same aids are used but depending on the horse to a lesser degree.
(ie don't need to turn the head).
This aid does create a slight problem though when you want to do
the higher levels of dressage, as you need a similar aid for lateral
work.
Anyway this is how we are taught in the UK.
Mike.
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| 822.7 | Thanks for the help | FIDERE::NAMOGLU | Sheryl Namoglu : VMS Development | Wed Jun 08 1988 08:45 | 29 |
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Thanks for all the replies!!!
I guess I got myself confused with the diagonals, as the more I
think about it, I remember being taught on the outside diagonal
(as everyone here is saying). I just haven't checked in such a
long time, I managed to confuse myself.
As for the canter - It seems that everyone starts the
same way and the difference becomes what the trainer uses as the
"dominant" aid in the end. However, it appears that this horse
has been trained with the outside weight and inside leg for the
correct lead.
RE: Different Instructors : We are actually working with the same
instructor (who is the same woman who trained this horse). What
we are trying to do is get everyone riding the same way on the horse,
to avoid the confusion that you warned against. The problem we
are having is that us 2 riders have had slightly different instruction
in the past, and we are just learning the differences in our riding
styles. So, I agree about the poor horse's confusion :-), and
we are working on that.
Thanks again...
Sherry
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| 822.8 | | DYO780::AXTELL | Dragon Lady | Wed Jun 08 1988 14:13 | 27 |
| trot diagonals: The "correct diagonal" is the outside, i.e. rising
with the outside front leg - at least in this country in equitation
and pleasure classes. In Europe, some folks use both diagonals
- but for different purposes. The inside diagonal can be useful
for balancing horses around turns and before a canter depart (it
puts your behind in the saddle at just the right time to use your
aids effectively. In dressage, either diagonal is correct, as
long as you are consistent within a test.
canter departs: The "correct" method I learned is active inside
rein, passive outside leg behind the girth (to control the haunches),
and active inside leg to drive the horse into the canter. Oh, and
your own balance is slightly to the outside (to free up the inside
shoulder for the depart. Try to explain this to a beginner! Actually,
any set of aids you use is ok as long as you are consistent and the
horse responds. With greenies, it's more a matter of timing and
balance than specific aids. With other people's horses, I usually
just ask them what they use and adapt.
Countercanter is indeed the wrong (or outside) lead. It differs
from cross cantering (one lead in front and the other in the back).
While counter canter is a true movement (and very useful for suppling),
crosscanter is incorrect at any time.
- Maureen
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| 822.9 | for training... | NOETIC::KOLBE | with the brightness of peace | Wed Jun 08 1988 16:28 | 17 |
| < Note 611.8 by DYO780::AXTELL "Dragon Lady" >
< The inside diagonal can be useful
< for balancing horses around turns and before a canter depart (it
< puts your behind in the saddle at just the right time to use your
< aids effectively.
<
< your own balance is slightly to the outside (to free up the inside
< shoulder for the depart.
I am having trouble getting my mare (a greenie) to take the right lead
canter. Am I understanding what you're saying in that I could try posting
on the inside leg on a circle to help this? When would I give the aids,
at the time I meet the saddle? Given all the desriptions I'd say we have the
countercanter down pat! liesl
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| 822.10 | does this help any? | DYO780::AXTELL | Dragon Lady | Fri Jun 10 1988 11:36 | 39 |
| I ride a lot of real greenies for people. You know... no brakes or
turn signals. When you do this you learn to ride more based on
basic mechanics and balance than any particular set of aids. And
you learn to be a little creative.
I learned this from a hunter seat person a long time ago...
Assuming you are trotting in a circle on the correct daigonal (outside)
and you want to pick up a canter on the correct (inside leg leading)
lead, you change diagonals to the inside one and use whatever leg
aids (aka driving aids) timed with when you seat is in the saddle.
Sounds strange but it works. The other thing that works is to ask
for a canter right before a corner - especially a downhill corner.
The horse has a choice, pick up the correct lead or fall on its face.
Most horses choose the former.
On the other hand, most lead problems are rider problems. A typical
fault is the rider dropping the inside hand and shoulder. This puts
a lot of weight on the inside shoulder and will inhibit its movement.
I teach my beginning riders to balance slightly to the outside and
to raise the inside hand SLIGHTLY as the ask for the depart. This
just counteracts some natural reactions and put them in the center
of the horse rather than leaning to the inside. Most beginning riders
are also not stable enough to sit a canter without causing the
horse to switch lead, so I have them ride in a half seat (two point)
until they get it together. The half seat is also useful for horses
with weak backs.
For broke horses....
You can tell if a lead problem ds a horse or rider problem by
watching the horse play in the field without a rider. If the horse
is tearing on both leads, you can pretty much bet it's a
rider problem.
For greenies...
Some of them are right or left handed just like us. Sometimes it
just takes a while to sort all those legs out.
Whatever you do have patience and be gentle. A balaced slow canter
takes coordinations on the horses part. Give them a chance to learn
where their feet are.
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| 822.11 | How About Sitting Trot B4 Canter ? | OFFPLS::PRESTIDGE | | Tue Jun 14 1988 16:44 | 18 |
| When I lived in England last year, I took lessons at a BHS
approved stable called Rycroft (for you UK riders out there);
and the general rule there was to do sitting trot 3-4 strides before
you were ready to ask for the canter. I found it much easier that
way to use both of my legs (outside behind the girth; inside on),
and drive with my seat at the same time....and it worked better
than any other method I had been taught at the hunt-seat stables
I took lessons at before...
When I returned from the UK, I found a dressage instructor who used
the same method, even for green horses, and it worked just as well.
Anyway, that's my $.02 - I'd be interested to hear what the rest
of you noters think about this tactic...
-Sue
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| 822.12 | | PLANET::KEIRAN | | Wed Jun 15 1988 09:32 | 9 |
| RE .11
I learned the same method during my years in Pony Club. I also
found it to be quite effective, and still use it to get my horse
to canter.
Linda
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| 822.13 | more on the "natural method" of training | DYO780::AXTELL | Dragon Lady | Wed Jun 15 1988 12:37 | 14 |
|
Sitting trot prior to a canter transition is pretty normal in
proceedure in the dressage/balance seat communities. It requires
that the rider be able to sit a trot correctly - not just flop
around. Sometimes it's a bit much to ask of a rider who's having
problems or a horse with a weak back.
Learning to feel the correct timing of departs can be done in sitting
trot by timing your aids to coincide with the inside diagonal. I
find this to be a useful tool for starting to teach riders to feel
what there horses are doing underneath them. Feeling is essential
for schooling correct walk-canter departs, simple changes of lead,
and flying changes.
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| 822.14 | Canter Aids and Counter Canter | LARVAE::CARR | | Tue Jun 21 1988 10:35 | 30 |
|
I thought I might just add my tuppence (UK) to this discussion...
On canter aids, I've always been taught as a dressage rider to create
impulsion with my inside leg on the girth, and then to give the
canter aid with a brushing movement of my outside leg. This engages
the outside hind leg which is the first leg that the horse moves
in a canter pace.
This brushing movement of my outside leg is very
different than the outside leg aid I use for half-passes or other
lateral work - since for half-pass my outside leg stays behind the
girth until the movement is finished. In addition, you then use
the brushing movement of your leg for flying changes - the
horse changes in response to you changing your aid (as long as you
have the necessary degree of collection).
I use counter canter quite a lot as a suppling exercise - and to
ensure my horse is straight. In counter canter, there should be
a small bend to the correct canter lead, but it shouldn't be excessive.
The aim is for the horse to be as balanced in counter canter as
in true canter - and to be able to move in and out of true and counter
canter. As long as he's calm, my horse has finally become supple
enough to really work in counter canter. But if it's a bad day,
all the flying changes come out - and not because I ask for them!
Cheers,
Pamela
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| 822.15 | disunited | TALLIS::MJOHNSON | | Thu Jul 13 1989 11:32 | 38 |
| I would firt try to figure out why your horse gets
disunited. Does he start out right and then switch
behind? Does it happen in both directions? Does
he do it on the longe line or only when a rider is
on top? Does he do it only when the footing is deep?
Most cases I've seen are caused by the horse being
unbalanced, or not strong enough to stay on the lead.
A horse who only does it in one direction may even
be switching behind due to soreness in one hind leg.
Not seeing the horse, I can only guess that he's
probably unbalanced. Also, I'm assuming he starts
out correct and then switches behind. When you first
take the canter, be sure to have a lot of outside aids
to prevent him from popping his shoulder to the
outside. Also, only canter for a short period - maybe
just 3 strides, and then trot again. As soon as they're
worn out they'll often switch back and forth behind to
switch the tired leg. When a horse canters his most
active leg is his inside hind. Since this is the one
working the hardest, this is the one they switch off.
If the horse gets disunited on the longe line then I
wouldn't recommend cantering him on the longe. If
he can't find his balance by himself then you'll need
to help show him. I've found doing counter bending
in the trot prior to asking for the canter can help.
Then just before the canter depart, straighten him
but keep the outside aids (rein and leg) firm. If you
overbend the horse to the inside, his weight will fall
outside and the hind leg can switch more easily. So
even if you keep a tad bit of outside bend while cantering,
it would probably help correct his balance problem.
Good luck,
Melinda
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