Conference noted::equitation

    I think the latest thinking on laminitis is that you should not
    hose the feet down - I can't remember the exact reason for this,
    but it's something to do with pressure causing the blood vessels
    to expand.
    
    I would bring her off the grass altogether.  What does your vet
    say?
    
    Helen.

    Have your vet look at the pony as soon as possible.  I caught my
    horse in the first stages and the vet gave her Bute and Lasix and
    she pulled out of it just fine.  However that has to be done within
    the first few hours.  It just gets worse the longer you leave it
    and can eventually cause damage to the hooves and cause the coffin
    bones to rotate downward (sometimes they even come out through the
    sole of the foot).
    
    I read up a lot on laminitis (in EQUUS) when my horse had it.  I
    don't remember anything on hosing the feet, but I do remember that
    the recommend walking the horse even though it is painful for them.
    Walking is supposed to help pump the toxins out of the feet.
    
    Re: .1  The blood vessels are already expanded when the horse has
    laminitis, so I don't think hosing can make it worse - not sure
    though.
    
    						Jan

    I agree with the last note, call your vet as soon as possible.
    
    I had a 20 yr old Cleveland Bay/TB founder last summer.  I had him
    boarded at another farm then.  The farm owner called me at work
    in the morning to say that the horse was acting funny.  I did not
    get there until about 6pm to see how bad he was.  I called the vet
    at that point.  When the vet arrived around 8pm, she told me I should
    have called sooner (she was a young vet lacking in "bedside manners".
    She x-rayed, gave him some shots (I think anti-inflamitants), and
    said to leave him in his stall for two weeks.  She said that walking
    would aggrevate it.  This surprised me, as it would seem that walking
    would be good.  We had turned him out earlier that day.
    
    We found out the next morning that this gelding's coffin bones had
    rotated some.  We then decided to have him put down as he also had
    a number of other old age problems.  One of the problems was with
    his pituitary gland which apparently also increases the chances
    of founder.  So we figured that he would founder off and on if we
    decided to keep him around.
    
    Good luck,
    Diana
    

    
    Can anyone tell me where a good source of information would be 
    that in detail discusses this topic?  Where does Founder come 
    from, ie. what triggers it? Can it be avoided? I've only known 
    two cases of it, both horses had to be put down it was so severe.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    Marianne
    

    Thanks so far for all the suggestions.
    
    The reason I have been hosing her feet down as this is what was
    recommended in the TV Vet Horse Book (Can't remember who its by).
    She is a hell of a lot better today and believe it or not is very
    nearly sound, but I think after so many of you have mentioned it
    I will call the vet out anyway.  I have to admit, not being very
    experienced, that laminitus was not that serious.  I certainly know
    different now thanks to everyone out there.
    
    I have had one thought since my original note, that I would like
    your advice on and that is...
    
    Is it just lush grass that causes laminitus, or pony nuts aswell.
    I give Stroller a handful of pony nuts after she has done some work,
    and sometimes more depending on what exercise she has had.  Should
    this be stopped aswell?
    
    Regards,
    BARBARA

    Re: .4
    
    I have all the back issues of EQUUS so the first thing I did when
    I knew my horse had laminitis (after calling the vet of course!)
    was to get out the EQUUS index and find all the articles on laminitis
    and founder.  They have written 4-5 articles over the past 10 years.
    The first 2 or 3 went into causes and what the horse goes through
    in detail.  The later ones dealt with new developments in treating
    laminitis.
    
    Re: .5
    There can be several causes for laminitis.  Two are most prominent
    - lush grass in spring and too much grain.  Since I haven't heard
    of pony nuts, you'd be best off to talk to your vet about them.
    I would limit the amount of grass the pony gets - you might also
    want to talk to the vet about how much/how often.
    
    						Jan
    

    As far as I know, laminitis is actually a blood disorder.  It is
    commonly caused by spring grass (or autumn grass - the grass can
    become very rich again in September, and two ponies at my yard got
    it last September after the wet summer), or by two much hard feed
    (say if a horse gets into the feed room ...), but it can also be
    associated with other diseases, and with foaling.  It can be chronic
    or acute.
    
    It is always serious, and you should always call the vet.  As was
    mentioned in several replies, it can cause what we call the pedal
    bones (I gather you call them coffin bones) to rotate, and come
    through the soles of the foot.  This is now occasionally treated
    by radical foot surgery, which involves cutting most of the hoof
    away.  I don't know how successful this is.  
    
    Once a pony has had laminitis, it will always be prone to it, and
    should not be turned out on lush grazing etc.
    
    I know all this because I own a - shall we say, chubby? - Highland
    pony.  He puts on pounds just by looking at grass at this time of
    year.  He has not had laminitis (touch wood), but I always worry
    that he will!  At present, he is in a field with very little grass,
    together with the two ponies at the stables that do get laminitis.
    
    
    Helen.

    Founder, or laminitis is a deadly serious problem that EVERY horse
    owner should be aware of.  Not only will it cause permanent damage
    to the horse, but in a serious enough case cause the death of the
    horse.  
    
    Founder is triggered by rich grass, cold water in the stomach when
    the horse is too hot, hard fast work on hard ground, retained placenta
    in foaling, regular colic.  
    
    What happens is that the flora bed in the gut is made up of gram
    negative and gram positive ecoli (?) Flooding the gut with a different
    food will change the balance of this.  The gram negatives die releasing
    a posion toxican that permeates the wall of the intestine and goes
    in to the blood strea.  The toxican (Thromboxian (sp?) is a vasio
    constrictor (causes the blood vessals to constrict) and the blood
    pressure to rise ( thus the pounding digital pulse)  The sensitive
    lamini (think of them as a network of supporting blood vessels that
    support the coffin bone to the hoof wall)  these little blood vessels
    constrict and the blood supply slows and backs up, pressure builds.
    The lamini lacking sufficient oxygen begin to die.  Thus you have
    founder.  Hosing the feet with cold water is a small defense against
    the heat build up.  The idea is to bring down the swelling and allow
    the blood to flow.  Walking, there are two views on this.  Some
    will tell you yes walk to get the blood flowing, but many experts
    on founder will tell you no.  The stress of walking on the already failing
    sling to support the coffin bone is too much.  Cold water and walking
    are insufficient efforts to stem the tide of the crippling surge
    o events.  Drugs, like heprin ( to thin the blood), Banamine, bute,
    and isoxophrin are the only methods possible to avert disaster.
    But the biggest most important thing of all to stop founder is
    MAINTENANCE and KNOWLEDGE.  Know Thy Enemy.  That and time will
    keep your horse free from this painful problem. 
    
    I would stongly suggest that for your pony you contact Myron McClane.
    His work with the toe ressection and the hartbar shoe are indeed
    miraculous.  Have NO ONE ELSE DO IT.  No vet in my opinion or farrier
    is or could be better than this man who has done more of this procedure
    than any one else.  But be prepared, it will be expensive, and the
    nursing care involved can be extensive.  But if you want results,
    if you want your horse to grow a new hoof wall with the coffin bone
    secured, than that is the way to go.  I know because my old pony
    mare foundered from a thyroid condition.  The first time she went
    well with shoes and pads on and light riding.  The second time she
    went to Tufts, and I had it done there. Never Again.  Too much pain,
    it was very expensive.  The mare was in the hospital for a month,
    and in a stall for seven months.  Because of the extensive bute,
    her resistance was lowered and the small polyps that were growing
    in her windpipe blossomed and she had to be put down.  One shoeing
    away form a normal shoe and pasture life.  Delight only survived
    because of my extensive nursing and post surgical care.  Her doctor
    and farrier believed that if otherwise, she would have died from
    depression.  It nearly cost me my job and only because I worked
    for Tufts and got their discount could I afford, it.  Tufts did
    a good job, but after seeing Myron do wonders on worser cases (she
    was not terribly bad at all) I would have done differently.
    
    Sorry to ramble on but I hope that this experience helps someone
    else.  
    
    stephanie
    

    
    RE;8
    thnaks FOR THE GREAT INFO!!!
          i enjoyed it.
                         
    

    Laminitus or founder is a nasty condition. I've worked on a few
    horses with it and have one, my daughters horse.
    
    Nobody knows all of the causes of it but it seems to be triggered
    by a stress on the horses system. Some causes can be pigging out
    on the lush green grass when not aclimated to it, pigging out in
    the grain barrel or drinking a lot of cold water right after exercise
    and being hot. It also strikes after a serious illness. When it
    starts the gut bacteria produces toxins and this makes for a vicious
    cycle making things worse. Immediate vetrinary care should be started
    with anti-inflamitory agents and your farrier can reduce the mechanical
    stress on the affected feet.
    
    The classic symptoms are lameness with the hind feet being drawn
    up under the horse to remove the weight from the front (founder
    usually strikes in the front feet). This won't happen if the back
    feet are affected or only 1 foot is affected or all 4 feet are in
    distress. The affected feet will usually be warmer to the touch.
    
    If this happens time is critical, call the vet, hose the affected
    feet with cold water. Bute or Banamine will help relieve the pain
    and bute is a anti-inflaminatory agent. Aspirin (60 - 70 people
    aspirin for a 1000 lb horse crushed and mixed with molasis) can
    also help but ask your vet first about this as you may be dealing
    with something other than laminitis.
    
    Another thing you can do is to tape a rolled up kling gause under
    the frog of the foot, a 3 inch gause roll with a layer of tape on
    it will give support to the coffin bone if it is begining to rotate.
    It should be placed under the frog and not under the sole of the
    foot and can be held in place with a wrap around the foot of gause,
    vetwrap or some tape (duct tape or the waterproof adhesive tape).
    
    Do not walk the horse, keep him a quiet as you can until the vet
    gets there. The horse can usually be stabilized with drugs and after
    this you can consider special shoeing.
    
    The heart bar shoe has had good success with foundered horses and
    in many instances with rotation a hoof re-section can be considered
    which can improve the position of the coffin bone greatly.
    You can have laminitis and little or no rotation, this can only
    be seen with x-rays. Laminitis is an inflammination of the sensitive
    lamini of the hoof. You can also have absesses in the affected area
    also which can complicate matters in a re-section.
    
    You can figure on about $1000 an many months of rest for your pet
    if this happens.
    
    Not every case requires a support shoe or a re-section, this is
    something you should talk to your vet about. I've assisted in doing
    a few of these, it's not complicated but does take a dedicated owner,
    farrier and vet combined.
    
    The sooner the horse is stabilized and mechanical stress is removed
    while the lamini is inflammed the better the outcome will be. This
    really gets to me, if I see a horse in pain from this its like seeing
    a small child come up to you with an arm torn open and broken and
    saying his arm hurts, a damn nasty and serious condition.
    
    John Perkins
    

    One thing I forgot to mention in the prevoius reply is that a horse
    with laminitis can recover. Once a horse gets it they will be prone
    to it again, but with careful horse management your steed can recover
    and never be affected with it again and lead a healthy active life.
    
    Then there is cronic founder when they founder every so often. The
    hoof is charicterized with "founder rings" that is rings that are
    wider apart in the back than in the front of the hoof. When the
    bone rotates down the top of it constricts the blood flow in the
    front of the hoof and the front of the foot grows much slower than
    the back.
    
    I know of quite a few horses that foundered and recovered, you could
    never guess it today to see them even with a trained eye. It is
    very frustrating at the time but some dedication and TLC it can
    be fixed.

   re /last
    
    
    you talked about hoof rings... could that be a sign
    that the horse has founder? (a light case?)
    
    

    
    Have any of your horses had Laminites (sp) before? and what were
    your outcomes?  The reason why I ask is becasue My horse develop
    Laminites (sp) lastnight.  I let him out in the pasture at 7:00am
    yesterday and he was just fine! he lead the pack and galloped to the
    back of the pasture..then at 7:00pm lastnight..He was stoped in his
    tracks..he could not move..all he could do was snicker to me for help.
    
    I got him into his stall (he was in alot of pain) and I called the vet
    she told me it was Laminites (sp) and to call my blacksmith to have
    Hart-Bars put on "or" Lilly Pads..she did put some a type of Lilly Pad
    for the night..and she will keep a close eye on him..Xrasy and Bute
    
    I ask her how this happed in 12hrs..she said it could be a number of
    things..change in diet..a bite..somthing he ate..or ever the shavings
    in his stall...
    
    but there are 3 horses in the barn..we all do the same things..feeding
    is all the same..same amound and same time...I have not changed a
    thing in his diet..his shavings are the same as allwasy..and he shoes
    are done every 6weeks and he is wormed every 6weeks along witht he 
    other horses..i just dont know how this has happed..
    
    The black smith is on her way..I will let you know what happes..but if
    any of you have any infor on Lamitits please let me know about it
    
    Thank You..Louisa 

    Did the vet do anything to help relieve the inflammation@ It is
    important to help the blood vessels dilate so as to improve the blood
    flow inthe hooves. If this is not  done the laminar tissue dies and
    then the coffin bone separates and rotates. That's when the farrier is
    needed to help restore the coffin bone and hoof relationships. If the
    vet can relieve the inflammation and capillary shut down things are
    much better.
    
    We had a horse develop laminitis three years ago. It took two weeks for
    a definitive diagnosis. By that time rotation had occurred. Outcome was
    that after two years of trying to get the horse to recover he had to be
    put down.