Conference noted::equitation

    I have just played the same ball game that your about to play. Our
    horses destroyed our pasture in just a few months last fall. In
    addition we opened up a new area that required many trees be cut.
    
    What I did, and it's just a guess as far as what the soil had/needed
    (did not have soil analyzed in which case, many may comment on), was
    cultivate soil mixed with last falls manure that was decomposed, added 
    the recommended amount of lime based on field size (asuming acidic),
    and left it for a weeks worth of rain. 
    
    I had purchased from Erickson's in West Acton, a 50 lbs. bag of
    pasture seed which contained Timothy, Alfalfa, Red/White Clover
    and local eastern grasses (small percentage of weeds) for $100.00.
    I spread most of the seed (saved some for later repair) over the
    field and lightly covered with soil (raked). Two weeks later we
    had germination. I have been watering the seed every two days if no 
    rain and been hitting bare spots where the seed didn't take and
    so far, it looks like we are of to a good start.
    
    Let me comment though that we do not intend to allow our horses
    to graze all day thereby eliminating hay. This is just an area for
    one hour turnouts and I thought the fellows would like something
    to do/chew. This was basically my reason for not having the soil
    analyzed. You may choise to do so if this will be replacing your
    hay.
    
    Anyways, just thought I would shed a little light on the subject.
    Hope I helped some on seed price and location.
    
    Good luck!
    

    	I am also interested in clearing some land and planting grass
    for pasture. We would like to cut the trees ourself, but what do
    you do with the remaining stumps? Do you have to remove everything
    (brush,trees,stumps) and rotatill the soil before you plant the grass? 
    Don't some types of clover and grasses take awhile (1-2yrs) to 
    establish themselves? After planting the grass in the spring (May)
    is there any type of seed that would allow the horses to graze 
    during the same year in the summer or perhaps fall? Does Agway or
    Blueseal carry any seed you'ld recommend planting?
    	
    		Thanks, Nancy

    
    What we did was burn everything. Cut down the trees (oak save for
    fire wood) and burn all. We burned the stumps right out of the ground.
    What was to small or small enough, we tied a chain around a pulled
    them out with a 4 x 4 pickup. Any large rocks were dug out.
    
    You may want to burn very soon for the season ends May 1ST.
    
    It will take 1-2 years to establish a good root base, depending
    on soil, growing season and type of grass/legume.
    

    We have been in the process of clearing and planting in tree acre
    chunks.  Our land was pretty heavily covered and I opted to save
    my poor back and had a bulldozer come in to do the work.  After
    grading, I fertilized and limed although I also did not have a soil
    sample tested.  If you want the job to be perfect, you really should
    have an assay but you can probably assume that the land will be
    acidic if there were trees there (especially pines).  We planted
    a combination of winter rye, oats, timothy, and clover.  Since we
    planted in the fall, we added the winter rye for good fall cover.
     The oats will grow fast in the spring and give the timothy and
    clover a change to set a root system.  It is very important to harrow
    in the seed after sowing or you will be responsible for an avian
    obesity problem.  I'd keep animals off for as long as possible up
    to a year because hooves will really tear up the area.
    
    Good luck with your project
    
    Bob
    
    

    We are thinking about buying a house and land in Wilton, NH.
    
    The obvious problem is this:  The current owners used to have horses
    and have a sturdy run-in shed still standing.  However, it's standing
    in the middle of the woods!  Trees about the size of a man's arm have
    grown up over the past few years (since the horses have been gone
    awhile).  Not to mention the usual wild shrubs and weeds.
    
    The house is everything we've *ever* wanted but the "pasture" leaves
    alot to be desired!  
    
    
    If we limit the horses to a small paddock - just for the winter when
    there isn't much grazing to be done anyway - and cleared the remaining
    acre or two before snow fell ...
    
    1) should we plant a winter grass or seed the pasture to be?  if YES
       what types would you recommend?
    
    2) how long should we wait until we allow the animals to graze on this
       pasture?  
    
    3) what has been your personal experiences with actually *creating* 
       your own pasture from out of the forest?
    
    
    What we don't want to end up with is a giant dirt_bowl for a pasture.
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    Cheryl
    

    
    After 12 years of continued work, we enjoy 8 acres of nice rolling
    pasture that originally was woods - cleared some 25 years before us
    and planted w/scotch pines that no one cared for - and grew up (alders
    taller than your head)...
    
    We cut down or pulled out most of the trees - we tilled and seeded
    the pastures and the following year we put the horses on just a 
    couple of acres.  The longer you can keep them off a newly turned
    piece of land the better your chances of having the grasses really
    grab a hold.........
    
    Now they are rotated regularly - the acres are divided into three
    pastures - and it is almost all mowable w/a bush hog, or mowing
    machine...
    
    	good luck - holly

    Please be careful what type of seed you plant for the pasture. 
    I lost two horses last year to Alsike Clover poisoning as a result
    of reseeding a pasture.  Alsike is a common ingredient in many
    companies pasture/forage mixes.
    
    Kathy

    Thanks Holly,  How many horses would you recommend per acre?
    we only have two (but a 3rd is planned).  We're hoping to end up with
    almost 5 acres total.  That's cleared and seeded before winter really
    sets in.
    
    
    And, thanks Kathy,  that is one of the BIG reasons I even started this
    note.  Was the alsike in a mix?  Was it labled as such?  I remember
    reading about that very problem and it broke my heart -- dosen't matter
    who's horse it is!
    
    Does anyone have a tried and true planting mix they could recommend?

    Yes, it was in a mix.  I did some checking around after the fact,
    and found it is in many mixes by different companies.
    
    My local grain store carries quite a variety of mixes, so you might
    check with whoever you buy grain from.  Just specify you want something
    without alsike clover in it (in any quantity!).  I forgot what I
    planted last year, but it was by Blue Seal.
    
    Kathy

    You mean that the bag of seed DOSEN'T list the types of seeds actually
    in it?  Do you recall the brand name of the "alsike" seed mix?
    
    
    

    The bag does/should list all the ingredients.  The product I purchased
    was from Stanford Seed, however they are by no means the only ones
    that contain it.
    
    You shouldn't have any problem.  Instead of checking labels first,
    just state that you don't want anything with Alsike in it, then
    check the bag once they bring it out from the back room (or wherever
    they store it).
    
    Kathy

    Great, thanks.  We'll be sure to say (*demand*) NO ALSIKE.
    
    About having the land cleared... does anyone know of someone who would
    come in and log, de-stump, and grate the land for us?  I've heard that
    there are folks who use a team of horses to do this but don't know how
    to "find" them.  (the property is in Wilton, NH ie: Rte. 101)
    
    Would just any contractor/builder do this?
    
    Might be faster and cheaper in the long run to just have it done asap
    after moving in.
    
    

    
    There is a man in Mason, NH, who uses his team of horses to clear
    land, and you can hire him to do so. However, I can't remember
    his name!!
    
    But, if you call Gerald Anderson, in Mason, he could tell you - he's
    the person I know that has had it done. The man who does it lives
    just northwest of Mason center, on rte 123. Gerry's field is just
    beautiful! And I've watched the man and team work - those horses
    are wonderful...he said that one of the horses in the team is "hot"-
    so I watched very carefully. The one that was not hot stood absolutely
    still while waiting for the sled to be loaded with logs; the one that
    was hot tossed his head a little, and stomped his foot from time to
    time. I wish ol' Ray was that hot; maybe he'd stop running away with
    me!
    
    Good luck!
    -julie

    Oh, and I got an estimate last summer for clearing an acre. They
    would clear, stump, haul away and burn, having the land ready for
    seeding - one acre for $2000.00. This is with a bulldozer.
    
    -j
    

    Thanks Julie!!!
    
    Sounds like just the guy!  Will start trying to contact your friend
    Gerald Anderson in Mason tonight.
    
    That's *hot*?!  You're right... wish mine was that *hot* too! ;*)
    
    Looks like I'd better plan to take vacation that day... couldn't stand
    to miss the horses!
    
    hmmmmm....maybe seeing these big beasts will convince my husband that
    they would make a nice addition to the "heard".  One of these should be
    slow and calm enough for him! :-)
    

    re: 9
    
    Who did the estimate for the bulldozer work. Was it a construction
    company? 
    
    		I need an acre cleared...Nancy
    

    
    	RE:11
    
    	Where do you live?  We have had and continue to use a local
    	man that does a super job...  and he only charges $40.per hour.
    
    	We had him dig a 10' ditch from the house to the barn and he
    	also did all the prep work for the site (of the barn)
    	Susan

    
    RE: .11
    
    I don't remember their names. But if you live in the Mason/Wilton/
    New Ipswich area, their is a little bi-monthly free paper that
    is delivered called the Jo-Marc advertiser. It's great! I get all
    my "hired help" out of it. The advertisers in it are all local
    people.
    
    Also, check the PICA::NEW_HAMPSHIRE notes file for local business
    people; the JOET::HOME_WORK file may also have something.
    
    julie

    
    Re: 12,13
    
    I live off of Rte 101 in Candia area (near Deerfield/Raymond/Chester)
    If anyone knows of someone that could do the work...please let me
    know. 
    		(I really would like reasonable rates, if possible)
    
    				Nancy 
    

    I found the note on the Alsike Clover, but I recall reading something 
    both here and in a magazine about the Fescue type grass being harmful.
    
    Any pointers?
    
    Is Agways `paddock mixture' still a good type to use?
    
    Thanks

    
    
    Fescue is not recommend for use as pasturage for horses as it 
    can be infected with a fungus that causes abortion in broodmares and
    other problems in foals.  There was an excellent article in BLOOD HORSE 
    about this problem recently and another article in ?EQUUS? possibly.
    
    
    Pat
    

    I did a lot of research on grasses for horse pastures last fall. One
    thing I looked into was the fescue problem Pat mentioned.
    
    It turns out that only fescue grown from seed that was infected with
    this fungus causes the abortion problem. Once the seed has sprouted,
    the grass cannot be infected with the fungus. So, if you buy seed that is
    certified to be "endophyte free", fescue is a possibility. The
    advantage of fescue is that it forms a dense turf and therefore stands
    up to horse traffic fairly well. And horses do like to eat it. 
    
    We decided against the "endophyte free" fescue because it is expensive
    and less vigorous than the common stuff so you have use more pounds per
    acre to get good grass.
    
    We decided on a mixture of white clover, timothy and bluegrass. We got
    advice from the county agent about which varieties do well in the NW
    climate etc. You might check with your county agent to find out what
    works best in your area.
    
    We told them what qualities we wanted (durability, horses will eat it,
    will tolerate wet ground in winter and long dry spells in summer, etc)
    and they said try, X,Y or Z and if you want something for a "sacrifice
    paddock" use W.
    
    Good luck
    John

    This looks like as good a place as any for my question.  Does anybody
    know how much pasture you need for one horse, in order to replace the
    horse's hay ration.  I currently have 7-8 acres of pasture that I use
    for growing hay.  It makes a wonderful hay crop BUT the fellow who cuts
    it is *useless*!!  He still hasn't done my first cutting this year! 
    And last year, when some people got 3 cuttings, I got one dried out
    cutting, because he didn't get around to cutting it until August!  So
    out of all this land, I got 125 bales of dried out hay.  This translates 
    into 4 months supply of hay, since I use about a bale a day.  
    
    So, I'm wondering if this same land could provide grazing for four
    horses fo more than 4 months.  (actually, they'd have even more to
    graze, since two of them now graze in a 2-acre paddock.  But they've kept 
    that right down....)
    
    -ellie

    I've always heard the rule of thumb to be one acre per horse. Back on
    the farm when I was a kid we grazed 4-5 horses and/or ponies at any
    given time on about 10 acres of pasture, and everyone of em was fat as
    heck and only fed hay in the winter months. At my childhood playmates
    farm, they had 2 horses and a small, varying herd of cows on about the same
    acreage and their horses fared just fine, too. We fertilized by
    spreading the manure in the pastures and the grass always seem lush
    enough to keep them well. All of our horses were fed grain twice a day
    as well, the ponies never were fed anything other than pasture in
    summer and hay in winter. Good luck, I'd love to have pasture someday!
    I have 7 acres, but its mostly wooded..ah, for a good, cheap bulldozer!
    :-)
     

    re .9
    
    Thanks!  One more question, though -- how early or late in the spring
    did you start letting them graze, and how long into the fall did it
    last?  Also, (well, *two* questions) where were your pastures?  I'm in
    Mass.
    
    -ellie

    Hi Ellie,
    
    They began grazing as soon as the snow melted, they were turned out in
    the same pastures even in winter, being brought in at night and having
    boriums on (except the ponies, who were of course always barefoot).
    Consequently they started eating as soon as they could manage it. :-)
    I dont remember exactly when it was we stopped feeding the hay, mid-May
    I believe. I'll ask my father, he'd remember time frames more clearly
    than I. I do recall that we started feeding hay after the first frost
    of the fall/winter. 
    
    Our farm was in Nashua, NH. It's still there, but the houses are rented
    to tenants and my folks moved to Amherst NH a few years ago. The
    fields are leased to someone who hays, there are no longer animals
    there at all. It's currently for sale, with an agreement pending, much
    to my distress, I'd love to be able to keep it but I cant' possibly pay
    the taxes on 50+ acres of vacant land in Nashua. :-(((
    
    Good luck, I really do envy you!
    
    Linda
    

    Thanks -- I guess my grazing season will be the same, since my farm is
    in Chelmsford.  I would probably use this just as a summer pasture,
    since it's not adjacent to the barn, and would be hard to get water to
    in the winter.  
    
    Now, I just have to figure out the easiest way to fence it.
    
    -ellie

    Hi Ellie,
    
    We turn our horses out at the end of May, in 75 acres of mostly
    pasture.  That way the grass has had a good chance to grow and they
    don't trample or chew down the brand new grass.  They are out all
    summer long (except during hurricanes *8^}) and don't come in until
    the first snow, or around thanksgiving time.  If it gets really cold
    in November and the pasture is eaten down pretty good, they get a bale
    of hay a day between 9 horses.  None of them has ever been skinny, and
    they hate it when they have to come in for the winter!!