Conference noted::equitation

Tina,

I commute about 50 miles to work and have three horses turned out all
day (without halters) unattended.   I've made sure my fencing is virtually 
indestructable.  Its 4 rails high with electric fencing running on three of
the four rails.  I have emergency numbers written on the barn door in case 
a neighbor notices something wrong and needs to contact me or a vet.  I also
have a situation where the horses can have shelter, if they choose.  My stall 
doors open into the paddock so they have free access (although they NEVER 
choose to be in).  One last thing I do is check very closely for any sign
of injury/sickness.  I've always checked for this, but I take EXTRA time now
since I'll be gone all day.  

I admit, it worried me quite a bit at first.  The worst part is knowing they're
standing outside in the dark on those short winter days.   I would have to rely
on my neighbors catching something wrong during the day.  But since I have no
alternative, I have to take the risk.   As you said, make sure all the horses
get along fine first.  Also, try to keep a close eye on them for the first
couple of days before leaving them unattended all day.

And finally, congratulations, on setting up your own horse farm!  

Melinda

    	As Melinda said,the key is excellent fencing,and double checking
    your turnout for hazards,and no halters. We turn three out every
    day,and bring them in at night. This is the time that we check for
    injuries and /or illness. We've had a few minor nicks and scratches,
    but so far (notice the crossed fingers) things have been fine.
    	We have a thirty mile,one-way,drive to work,so getting home
    isn't a quick proposition. our only neighbor has our work phone
    number,but he's never used it. He has horses of his own,so we help
    each other out.
    	There's no way to guarantee that all will always be well,but
    with reasonable precaution,you should be OK.
    
    	Best of luck in your new enterprise.
    
    		George
    

    I agree with the both replies.  I prefer to have them out than couped
    up in a stall all day.  The only time we have had a problem is when
    one of the youngsters kicks up a commotion (yearling colt tried
    to get fresh with his mother in another pasture...everything worked
    out okay after a few stitches).  This is not a normal happening
    though and we have ours out for almost 12 hours a day for the past
    ten years.
    
    Good luck on your farm.
    

    I also agree with the first replies.  All of my horses get about
    12 hours of outside time every day.  My stalls open right on to
    the pasture so if the weather gets bad (or the BUGS in the summer)
    they can go inside.  So I don't have to feel guilty if they're 
    out in bad weather.
    
    One thing I have noticed about their behavior in a group is that
    the more space they have outside, the better they behave toward
    each other.  If the paddock space you have is on the small side,
    it's possible your horses may be more inclined to wrestle with
    each other.
               
    Gwen
    

    Hi Tina,
    
    I do not like to Halter unless it is needed. I just bought a 
    mare and haltered both horses for the first week only. This was
    done in case of injury but as it turns out both horses get alone
    fine and are now turned out without halters. So far everything has
    been fine. I also post numbers on my barn just in case something
    goes wrong. 
    
    Best of luck with your horse and boarders,
    -Denise-

    Just a side note.  Due to insurance increases and liability, make
    sure you are COVERED thoroughly in the boarding situation.  You
    will probably find that it does not pay to have boarders.  It is
    a trickly situation and if not looked into you could very well find
    yourself liable if anything happens to a boarders horse.  I hate
    to rain on any parade but the shocking new is - is that many riding
    stables are closing down because of liability insurance.  Too much
    money needed to cover the fact that you the stable owner are liable
    for anyone on your property ie. boarders and their guests (trainers
    included)  Your insurance agent will be able to advise you better.
    You will probably find it easier on the pocketbook and your mind
    to fill the two stalls with your own horses....what's two more anyway
    
    regards,
    stephanie

    As far as the insurance goes, it is important.  We currently go
    through the Farm Bureau and have an umbrella policy.  Maybe your
    insurance agent could check it out for you.
    
    Good luck...
    

    in resp to .6 and .7,
    
    Is it mandatory to have insurance on boarders? As for my horse,
    I wouldn't insure him. Can't I have the boarders sign a waiver
    that I would be held harmless in case of accidental death or 
    injury to said horse?
    
    At the barn I board at with Sue and Bill Woods, that's what my contract
    states, so I know that they are not to be held responsible if 
    anything happens. I know up front that it's pass at your own risk.
    
    Can I be sued if something did happen even though they signed a
    contract specifically stating no recourse?
    
    

    
    Let me add some info from my experiences.  I looked extensively
    into insurance last summer and had many a long talk with my insurance
    agent and my lawyer.  Yes, a waiver does cover you to a point. 
    And of course it is always a good idea to have boarders sign one.
    BUT, they don't always stand up in court.  If a horse is injured
    or killed and the owner can prove that it was due to your negligence
    then you could be in big trouble.
    
    No, you don't HAVE to have insurance, it's only for your own good.
    It's not the same as HAVING to have insurance on a car.  But having
    insurance on a stable and it's boarders is only good sense.  It's
    risky not to - but keep in mind that everything is risky, and the
    decision is yours.
    
    I would just add - see a lawyer and an insurance agent before you
    take on any boarders, they are your best chance at getting proper
    advice.
    
    Good luck and don't get discouraged until you have covered all the
    bases.
    
    P.S., regarding your original question.  I leave my four out all
    day while I am at work.  As long as they have shelter and good fencing,
    they should be fine, just make sure a neighbor has an emergency
    number just in case.
    
    Jenny
                     

    In the eyes of the law, you, as operator of the stable, are responsible
    for the "care, custody and control" of the horses on your property.
    If one of these horse gets out while you are away and causes some
    kind of damage to someone or something else, or bites the kid whose
    family is passing by and stops to pat the "nice horsey", you are
    liable. No amount of waiver signing alters that situation.
    
    Now if it's only your own horses in your stable or on your property,
    your homeowners' or similar insurance can be extended to provide
    liability insurance. If it's a boarder's horse, you are still liable,
    so you should have explicit liability insurance. The fact that your
    boarder explicitly signed away in a waiver his/her right to hold
    you liable for anything that happens to his/her horse, does not
    alter your liability to the kid or owner of the car hit by the loose
    horse. This is why third party liability insurance is needed.
    
    There is the famous story of Digital and the Cow which illustrates
    one possibility of what happens when the legal profession smells
    a "deep pocket" (someone with lots of money). Digital owns some
    property in Lancaster, MA. Adjacent to this property is a farm.
    One day a cow broke out of the farm, wandered across the Digital
    land and on to the highway. It was hit by a car, to the detriment
    of cow, car and occupants. The resulting lawsuit was filed against
    Digital.

    I also leave my horses outside together, unhaltered all day.
    One thing that reassures me while I am away at work is to have
    a neighbor who knows where I keep my grain (in case they decide
    to leave) and an emergency phone number.  Luckily the situation
    has never risen, but good fencing and general pasture maintenance
    both keep the horses in and safe.

    I have to agree strongly with the replies posted by Ian and 
    Jenny. Last month at the Mass QH meeting, Joe Lombard spoke
    on Insurance. I can't tell you the number of surprised faces
    I saw in the crowd. People were just unaware of what could 
    happen. All I can say is talk to a lawyer or Insurance broker
    before you do anything. Waivers do not stand up in court! 
    In Mass, you can't force anyone to give up the right to sue
    under any circumstances. A Waiver, will just keep a more 
    honest person from going to court.
    
    -Marianne-
    

    In reference to my earlier reply on insurance and an umbrella policy.
    The umbrella policy referred to people liability and not to the
    horses.  I believe there are more problems with people getting hurt
    than horses getting hurt.
    
    MOST of the folks connected to horses, or at least the ones I have
    come across, wouldn't hold the person boarding their animal responsible
    for the loss of their horse unless it was rally GROSS negligence.
    I know I wouldn't.
    
    Any inputs people might have on this would be appreciated.
    
    GOOD LUCK
    

    The barn where I board has a boarding contract that states that
    the barn is liable for only $300.00 if the boarders horse should
    die on the property and specifically requests that boarders get
    their own coverage (mortality, medical, etc.) if the value of the
    horse is more than that.  A case in point, at the barn next door
    one of the boarders had a broodmare, the mares weanling filly and
    two geldings.  The boarder wanted all of her horses fed three times
    a day with two scoops of sweet feed--including the filly.  The barn
    owner said that that was too much feed for that young a filly and
    refused to feed her more than one scoop twice a day so that she
    would not develope growth problems.  The boarder said that the owner
    was not taking care of the baby right and started to feed her extra
    grain every time that she came out.  Sometimes as much as three
    scoops at a time three to four times a week.  The filly developed
    growth plate problems in her knees and hocks to the point that she
    could not get up and down.  The boarder moved the filly and the
    broodmare out of the barn and the filly died about a week later
    from complications.  The boarder is now going to sue the barn owner
    for gross negligence in not taking care of the filly correctly.
    I haven't heard the outcome of this yet but will post it when I
    do. 
    
    
    Pat

    
    
    We had a previous note on leaving horses haltered in a paddock.
    DON'T DO IT.  I left them on mine because I live on a busy route
    and wanted someone to be able to catch them if they ever got out.
    I came home one afternoon to discovered my fillies leg through
    my colt's halter.  She was strangling him to death.  His head
    was about six times it's normal size.  If you can picture this,
    her leg was through his halter up over her knee so that his
    head was pulled downward and everytime she tried to get free
    she pulled him with her and vice versa.  I won't tell you the
    condition of my filly's knee, it was a mess.  I almost lost
    both of them.  They were probably pinned together in this
    condition for anywhere from 2-8 hours on a 90 degree summer's
    day.
    
    I turn them out without halters now and make sure a halter
    is handy in the barn or near the fence.  If they get out,
    most people know where they belong and will come to my house
    and if not find me, find the halters, and attempt to catch
    them themselves.
    
    

    My horses are out all day without supervision and I have never had
    a major problem.  As noted before....just make sure you have good
    fences and the ones going out together get along.  I know it's a
    controversial subject but I always turn my horses out with
    halters....the cheapest, weakest leather halters I can find.  If
    the horses get into trouble they break, and if they were to get
    loose, atleast they are somewhat easier to catch.   
    
    I just updated my general farm insurance policy and it costs me
    an EXTRA $237 per year to insure 3 boarders horses for third party
    liability (that's with the stipulation that all boarders ride only
    their own horses).   These premiums sure cut in to the profits!
    (But then, they're aren't any $ profits with horses anyway, right?) 
                                           
    Jeannie

    My response to the origional question is to leave them out as long
    as you have good fencing and they have enough room to get out of
    each others way.  You'll find they are much happier and healthier
    that way.  As Kathie mentioned in an earlier reply, we leave ours
    out without halters.  We are in a pretty rural area which has lots
    of horses.  If they do get out, they aren't too difficult to catch
    and everyone in the neiborhood has a halter of their own to use
    if they need it.
    
    On the subject of Boarders (slowly I turn... step by step...), I
    have found the experience to cost me more money than its worth in
    most cases.  We have a couple of boarders now which are excellent
    but it hasn't always been that way.  We've even had them bring a
    horse in and leave never to return.  The insurance we cover is because
    of all the activity associated with our breeding operation primarily,
    so extending it for boarding was not bad.  The problem with not
    having insurance is that even if you are well within your rights,
    it costs to defend yourself.  If you pick your boarders well you
    can do more to limit your liability than anything else.  
    
    Its nice to be back on the air but I wish I could find some better
    hours.
                                                             
    Regards,
    
    Bob
    

    I KNOW THIS IS GETTING TO BE RE-RUNS BUT I TOO LEAVE MY HORSES OUT
    24 HOURS A DAY WITHOUT HALTERS ON....IN FACT I NEVER USE HALTERS.
    MY HORSES WILL COME AND GO FOR ME WITH NECK LEADS AND EVEN WITH
    THE VET THEY STAND QUIETLY WITH JUST MY HAND ON THEM. I HAVE THE
    OPTION OF BRINGING MY HORSES IN AT NIGHT BUT THEY REALLY DO LIKE
    IT OUT BETTER. WHEN I TRY TO LEAVE THEM IN THEY BANG AWAY AT THE
    DOORS.MY VET AND MY TWO OTHER NEIGHBORS DUE THE SAME THING AND I
    MUST SAY THAT ALL OUR HORSES ARE VERY HEALTHY. I DO LEAVE THE MARES
    AND FOALS IN AT NIGHT UNTIL ABOUT MAY TIME AND THEN THE WEATHER
    IS WARMER THEN AND THEY DO GREAT. 
    
    I HAVE WOOD FENCING 2" X 10" RAILS THAT ARE 5' HEIGHT TO THE GROUND.
    I ALSO HAVE SHEEP THATS WHY THE FENCE GOES TO THE GROUND. I ALSO
    HAVE ELECTRIC ALON THE TOP SO THAT THEY DO NOT GET ANY IDEAS OF
    TRYING TO LEAN OVER.
    
    I ALSO HAVE A MILLION DOLLAR UNBRELLA ON MY FARM INSURANCE TO COVER
    ME IF THE ANIMALS SHOULD GET OUT AND INJURE SOMEONE OR DAMAGE THEIR
    PROPERTY OR IF SOMEONE SHOULD GET HURT ON MY PROPERTY BY MY ANIMALS.
    I DO NOT BOARD ANY HORSES AT ALL DO TO THE LIABILATY COSTS. IF THIER
    ANIMALS SHOULD HURT SOMEONE YOU AND THE OWNERS CAN BE SUED FOR DAMAGES.
    PEOPLE ARE SO CRAZY OUT THERE NOW A DAYS THEY THEY DREAM OF GETTING
    RICH WHEN SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS.
    
    YOU MAY ALSO WANT TO LOOK INTO THOSE BREAK AWAY HALTERS.....FARNAN
    USE TO MAKE THEM YEARS AGO AND THEY WERE GREAT...WHEN SET UP RIGHT
    THEY WOULD RELEASE FROM THE ANIMALS HEAD AND THEY WERE FREE...BUT
    IT ALSO GAVE YOU A HALTER THAT SOMEONE COULD CATCH THE ANIMAL WITH.
    I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN STILL GET THEM...ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO WHEN
    I GOT GOT SOME THEY WERE ABOUT $20.00 PLUS IN COST.
    
    GOOD LUCK AND HAVE FUN HAVING YOU "KIDS" AT HOME....
    
    TERRY
    
    

    Thanks everyone for your replies. I was getting really worried
    about leaving my "BABY" out all day. The big moving day is coming
    and I can't wait! 
          The next thing to do is get him a "pet" to keep him happy!
    
    thanks,
    
    Tina
    

                 <<< DELNI::WORK$01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]EQUITATION.NOTE;1 >>>
                      -< - Equitation Notes Conference - >-
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Note 565.0          The grass is greener on the other side..          No replies
SEDJAR::NANCY                                        69 lines  20-APR-1988 10:44
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    I agree.................NEVER leave a halter on an unattended horse in
    the paddock/pasture. I would like to share with you an experience
    that I do not wish to repeat, concerning leaving horses unattended
    while at work. I am really new to horses, at this time I have only
    owned my horses for 7 months. . .
    	When my horses came home to live, I did not have a fenced
    in area for Turnout. To explain...we had just completed building the 
    barn (building it ourselves). We were paying for the horses to be
    boarded elsewhere, and they came home at the end of OCT 87. 
    	I knew I needed a fence desperately, so I made an appointment
    to see a dealer of STUD rail fencing, for NOV 87. However, during
    the first weekend after the horses arrived, we decided to put up
    something temporary until we purchased our fence. My father offered
    some 5 ft high wire fencing with approx. 6X4 inch squares, from
    which he and my husband errected a 100x30 ft. paddock area. 
    	I was told to watch my horses for approx. 1-2 weeks before 
    leaving them out unattended all day in the paddock. At the farm
    where they were boarded..they had shared a paddock in preperation
    for coming home..and were steadfast friends..so I never had a problem
    with them not getting along. In fact they became inseperatable. 
    	A portion of our backyard that had just been planted with grass
    in August..was were we errected our Temporary paddock. The grass
    was a few inches tall when the horses came home. During the first wk.
    we turned the horses out all day (weather permitting) and nothing 
    happened...they never even seemed to go near the fence. We put plenty 
    of hay in with them, although they prefered the grass, they did eat a
    considerable amount of hay. Everything went so well...that after
    9 days, we decided to leave them home unattended while we went to
    work...everything was okay for a few days. On the 4th day we came
    home to find our 2yo filly standing outside the fence grazing!
    Fortunate for us, she would not leave the other horses' side.
    Luckily she only had two minor scrapes on her legs. 
    	At first we thought she might have possibly been spooked by
    a neighborhood dog. Needless to say, they were never left unattended
    again...and we finally figured out what happened, when a few days
    later she began to lean on the fence (pushing it down) and stretching
    her long neck over, attempting to eat the green grass on the other
    side of which there was virtually none left in the paddock.  
        To make matters worse, the ground was frozen by this time, and
    we were unable to put a "proper" fence in. This week we should be
    getting our "STUD RAIL" fencing...and I am looking forward to being
    able to turn our horses out unattended during the day. 
    	So...when people say the proper fencing is important, they mean
    it! I would also hot wire at least the top rail and bottom one..as
    horses will try to get to that green grass from over or under your
    fencing. I WILL NEVER use wire again! I now have a colt who has
    already caught his feet in it, while I was watching him do it. I
    am lucky, because he did not struggle at all...and waited for me
    to get to his side and help. His mother is now trying to reach over
    the fence to grab a few mouthfulls of grass. I must be stupid, to
    not have it hot wired yet, but...my husband insists we wait until
    the new fence is in (hopefully next weekend). I think I am going
    to die of "stress"! I never imagined that in trying to do what is
    best for my horses (giving them turnout space), that the ground
    would freeze, leaving me with a temporary fence that presents a
    potential HAZARD.   
       	If I want the horses to go out, I have to take the risk..but
    as with the colt, things can happen even when your horses are not
    left unattended. They never get to go out for the whole day, except
    on weekends. I have to watch them every minute, so this is how I
    spend my days...I'm lucky again, to have a new foal...because he
    keeps me amused. 
    	I only hope that you avoid wire fencing, and hot wire your 
    fence as suggested...then you can go to work and leave your horse
    unattended with peace of mind.
        Remember...the grass is always greener on the other side, just
    make sure they can't get to it!              
                                   Regards, Nancy