Conference noted::equitation

    I would suggest that if you can, separate them for about a week.
    To pay for my board, I help manage a small boarding stable.  We
    have 9 horses.  Every time a new horse comes we put him in a separate
    paddock where everyone can see the new guy, but they cannot get
    to rough.  After about a week he is put in with everyone and there
    are no problems.  Expect that there will be some rough play over
    the fence, but if you watch carefully, you will see that despite
    the roughness of it they are not killing one another; they are
    establishing a pecking order. (On the other hand they might hit
    it right off and become the best of friends.) I would think though
    that because they have been alone there will be some excited play,
    and for that reason I would separate them, and NOT leave halters on.
    Again, I would not panic when they come in with skinned patches, for a
    horsee this kind of contact is not fighting in the sense
    of an out and out battle, but a form of social play (I have seen
    horses fight to try to kill and there is a BIG DIFFERERENCE!)
    there will be some bald patches but it comes with the territory
    even among the best of equine friends. Good luck.
    
    stephanie 

    I forgot to mention that there will quite a bit of unpleasant
    squealing.  This noise is not really pleasant and can be a bit
    frightening.  Don't panic, expect this noise to go on when one or
    the other feels threatened or insulted.  You will notice too that
    for the amount of "abuse" each dishes out over the fence, they don't
    go away but stay.  It's all part of the I'm getting to know you
    process.
    
    stephanie

    	Denise,,another caution,,be sure that the fence between them
    is stout wood or diamond mesh wire. There's a danger that they could
    throw their fron feet and get hung up in the fence,if it allows
    that. Also,beware of wire fences with steel posts between them.
    These are normally fairly safe,but my neighbor's horse,and our
    colt both got hurt on the steel posts while playing with a new
    horse on the other side. My neighbor's horse died,and our colt
    got a cut on his chest ten inches long,three inches wide and a couple
    of inches deep. These happened at different times,by the way,and
    they were not playing together.
    
    	George
    

    .3
    Thank you George for your advice on the fenceing.  I do have good
    wooden fences. 6 by 6 posts with 8 foot long rails that are 2 by
    8's. Electric that runs with the fencing but not where the fields
    join together.
    

    Keeping them in separate paddocks for a short introductory time
    is a good idea.  Since they are both young and of opposite sex,
    they'll probably become the best of stablemates.  The nose-to-nose,
    squealing, and stromping of front feet is just as .2 said; getting
    the pecking order established.
    
    Putting horses out in pairs usually works out, unless you have a
    studdy gelding and a bitchy mare then watch out.
    
    

    
    
    I would like to add that if either horse has shoes on behind you
    might want to pay special attention when you do put them out together
    for the first time.  If one tends to be a kicker, the other could
    get seriously hurt.
    
    This happened to a student of mine that let a boarder in with her
    pony and the boarder kicked the pony (with hind shoes on) and shattered
    the little pony's leg (he had to be put down).  So just be careful
    if either has shoes on behind and if they tend to be a kicker.
    
    Generally you shouldn't have any problems especially since both
    seem to be good natured and of the opposit sex.
    
    Jenny

    From my experience there is no good indicator of how horses will behave
    when put together. You will have to watch how these two get on. Putting
    them in separate paddocks with a common fence is a reasonable strategy.
    I have known, however, with such an arrangement for the fence to get
    broken by either one horse kicking it or by a horse being so
    enthusiastic to meet its new neighbour that it pushes it down.
    
    My own horse, who is extremely friendly towards people, has a limited
    tolerance for other horses. When he has been turned out with another
    horse or horses, everything was fine for three days and then he
    proceeded to attack the other horses. He now has a small paddock
    to himself.

    Thank you all for your advice: As it turned out the horses were
    put into their stalls for about 3 hours. (New England Weather problems
    SNOW) Holly (The new horse) was quit warm when she came off the trailer
    so she needed to be cooled down before putting her in the paddock.
    After the 3 hours the horses seemed to be getting along fine so
    they were turned out together. All went well!! A lot of running
    and noise but not much kicking. Just a few warning kicks. No Contact,
    Bruises or cuts. Neither have shoes on right now.
    
    Today I am happy to say that they are best of friends. Side by side
    all morning long. Eating, drinking and running.
    
    Calmer owner :=} 

    The next problem will be when you try to take one out without the
    other !!
    

    Re: .9
    Well have run into the next problem. (Taking one out without the
    other) The 4 year old isn't to bad but he is in a hurry to get back
    now and the younger (2 yr) is the problem. She is fine until she
    sees the older one and then she starts prancing. She is a sight
    to see but not to handle! I have been trying to take her out each
    day to get her used to being alone and so far she is getting a tiny
    bit better.
    
    Does anyone have other ideas or methods I could try? 

HI All,

I'm not sure if this is the best place to put this, but here goes.  Moderators,
please excuse me if there was a better note.

Recently, I moved my horse from a barn when my trainer left the establishment.
The new barn that I found is a great place with lots of wonderful pasture
turnout.  However, it is a smaller barn and there are now 9 horses counting
mine.  5 of the horses, all geldings, are turned out together on one
of the pastures.  All of the geldings, from what I can see, have *very*
aggressive personalities.  My horse is turned out on another pasture
with an older gelding (I believe he's 20) and two mares.  One of the
mares is very quiet and the other is quite mean towards people (I've never
seen her be too rude to other horses, but you never know).  Louie (my guy)
has fallen in "love/lust" with the quiet mare.  

My question is, how much trouble can I expect from turning out my gelding
with two mares?  Louie loves to play hard, but is a real wimp when the
play comes back his way.  The older gelding has already established
himself as the 'herd' leader and has walloped Louie several times.  The first
day they turned them out together, Louie went ballistic and ran through
an electric fence when the quiet mare was removed from the pasture.  Then
the barn owner tried taking Louie out first and had to drag him out with
a stud chain (he wasn't being really bad, he just didn't want to leave
and would pay no attention to her until she put the chain over his nose).

My trainer keeps looking at me whenever I tell her about whats happening
like Louie will be dead in a couple of months.  The barn owner is equally
strong in her opinion that every thing will be just fine in a couple of
days (This has been going on for about a week).

Louie isn't getting any more marked up than he usually does (and he asks
for it, too).  I've not seen anything to write home about other than the
day he ran through the electric fence.  He was pretty hard to calm down.
Under saddle he's been just fine, so far.

I'm not the most experienced horse person, so I'd really like your opinion.  My
trainer acts like this shouldn't be done and its kind of got me paranoid.  Should
I just wait and see, or do I really need to worry?

Thanks,

Jan

PS.  The barn owner did give Louie about a week in a pasture alone with
the older gelding so that they could establish a relationship.  And if this
matters, Louie just turned 6.

    From what you say, it sounds like the 2 geldings are getting along OK
    and that there isn't any aggression between those 2. Is that true or did 
    I miss something? 
    
    It also sounds like Louie is getting on well with the quiet mare.
    Geldings and mares usually get along OK. But sometimes 2 geldings can't
    get along when there are mares with them.
    
    Is sounds like the main thing you are really concerned about is the
    fact that Louie "misbehaves" when somebody tries to separate him from his
    new pals, especially the quiet mare. That's understandable. Horses are herd 
    creatures. Louie has been uprooted from his known pasture mates(his
    herd!) and plunked down some place new. He's probably anxious because of 
    that and doesn't want to be separated from his new pals. Perhaps the
    easiest way to handle that(temporarily at least) would be to take Louie 
    and his favorite pal out at the same time.
    
    Have you ASKED your trainer what she thinks or are you just
    interpreting her looks to mean "He'll be dead soon if you don't do
    something?"
    
    It may take a while for this to settle down. We once had 4 mares when
    we brought home a gelding. We introduced him to the "boss" mare and
    once they settled that she was boss introduced the others. The older mares
    picked on him for about a month and then decided he was OK. The two
    young fillies(a 2 YO and a yearling) continued to pick on him and chase
    him around the pasture for nearly a year. I had the impression that the
    yearling had sort of accepted him and didn't really want to chase him.
    I think she just followed her big sister's lead. The 2 YO was really
    the worst of the lot in accepting this gelding into the herd but she
    eventually did.
    
    NONE of the mares ever really did the gelding any harm. Mostly they
    gave him "mean" looks or tried to bite him on the rump. He was kind of a
    wimp so he just ran off whever they threatened him. So, he never got
    kicked or anything.
    
    Does any of that help
    John

Well, the two geldings have a tentative peace between them.  The first
day was a little iffy, but then I expected that.  Since then, there
has been no trouble other than Louie getting a little bit into the gelding's
space and he's (the gelding that is) made it clear that he's the boss.  So far, everything
has been very quiet with the mares.

Yes, I am worried about his misbehaving when removed from the pasture. I
don't feel confident enough with these horses to handle both him and the
quiet mare together when removing him from the pasture.  Also, from time
to time I ride at odd hours and would not be able to take the mare
out with him.  The barn owner told me that he paced the stall and cried
for the mare the time that she took him out without her.  This is all
new behaviour to Louie.  He's usually very quiet and polite regardless
of whether he's alone or with company.

As for the trainer, yes, she is vocalizing pretty directly that she thinks
this is a dangerous situation.  Both for me and the horse.  She's said
quite a few times that she'd never turn out mares and geldings together.

My main concern is that Louie not get hurt seriously.  I realize that
there will be the occasional ding or kick, but I'm more worried about how
he and the gelding will react if it comes to a fight over the mare.  Or
how the mare will react when she finds out he can't really be of any
use to her.  As for me, I know how to get out of the way.  And I know how
to read the signal "leave me alone".  While I trust my trainer to be knowledgeable,
I'm also aware that sometimes they don't know everything. 

I just don't know what to expect and I was wondering if this is a situation
you guys would avoid.  If this situation has a greater risk than ordinary
turnout (they can have fights among just geldings, too), I'd like to be
as informed as possible.

Thanks,

Jan
 

    Hi Jan,
    
    I think that sometimes trainers forget that we can't have ideal
    situations all the time and sometimes have to make due with something
    less than that.  I know that I would love it if I could have everyone
    segregated according to age and sex.  But, at my house, if we did that
    the 20-year-old gelding would pine away for  his girls.  
    
    I think I agree with John...the pecking order issue is a non-issue.
    It sounds like there's a small enough group and a large enough space
    to keep them happy.  Even though they're herd animals, they need their
    space.
    
    And I also agree that the problem seems to be the bond your Louis has
    formed with the mare.  The only (feeble) solution I can think of is to
    put Louie in his stall if the mare gets taken out of the pasture.  And
    I bet this is what your trainer is worried about.  If the only fencing
    is electric wire, Louie will escape whenever he gets left.  And that,
    as we all know, is trouble looking for a place to land!
    
    So, would it be possible for whoever takes Louie's friend out to tuck
    him safely in his stall?
    
    gwen

    Well, after another couple of days, things seem to be going a bit
    better.  I guess that I'm just going to give it some time.  Louie 
    had to be removed from the pasture with all the others when we 
    went for a trail ride this weekend and he behaved well.  On
    the trail ride it was a different matter.  I rode with horses that
    he's never been turned out with and they didn't get along very
    well.  It made for a bit of a raucous ride, but all things considered
    I was fairly pleased.  I sat up, took charge and he did what I
    wanted even if it was grudgingly.  Maybe, I can master this yet.
    
    As for the turnout, I thank you all for sharing your thoughts.  It
    helped to put my mind at ease to find out that this wasn't
    as uncommon as my trainer seems to think.  
    
    Sometimes, I don't know what I'd do without this notes file!
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jan