Conference noted::equitation

    My horse has not increased his appetite, it remains the same as
    when I first got him. He was on the fat side of things do to lack
    of exercise. I in turn cut his daily grain rations down gradually by one
    pound. I have been working him lightly for three weeks since his first
    day and he lost weight, so now I've brought him back to his previous daily
    feed. If he continues to thin, I'll increase more. The previous
    owner had puchased a younger, therefore was not exercising mine
    on a regular basis. In turn with his daily feeding, he got fat.
    
    As for worms, he was done just prior to my receiving him (three
    weeks ago)  and is scheduled to be done by our vet after the first
    frost along with his fall shots.
    
    As far as plenty of hay, what do you consider plenty. He receives
    four to six flakes of hay daily, purchased from a local Sudbury farm.  
    I don't want the hay belly look again. His first visit from a freind
    who's worked with horses for 26 years commented four to six was
    fine and that he is fat and should be thinned to retain good health
    meaning a fat horse at age 15 is not healthy. I will, for the horses
    warmth, increase roughage come winter as recommended by her. 
    
    Presently, he is looking a lot better than he did, more energy by
    the day, acheived by just walking and slow canter daily for about
    1 hr. but no more than 3 hrs. . I also feel his personality is a
    lot more open now after three weeks. He's a sweet hart and a gentlman,
    but he still is the leader of the pack. 
    
    I will, once started, but him on a 6-8 week worm program, watch
    for continued thinning as an indication of worms and keep the
    interested posted of his progress. Thanx for the replies. It's 
    reasuring to know that others care and show a concern. If any, by
    reading this reply, see areas missed or mishandled, please comment.
    I just purchased another over the weekend. This makes two and no
    more stall space for rent. He is a 16.3 T.B. Gelding used by his
    owner in jumping events. I road him this weekend and could not get
    over his long stride and smooth ride, so of he goes to my place
    for a while. My plans are to become more familiar with there needs
    and more experience in riding so I can in turn, look for a younger
    horse to bring up.
    
                               Again, Thanx.
                             

    Re: plenty of hay - this really depends on the quality of hay that
    you have and whether or not the horse is able to graze on pasture
    or not (although now the grass isn't going to give him too much
    nutrients).  If the hay is 1st quality & mostly alfalfa, he would
    probably do well on 2-3 flakes twice a day, if it's poorer quality
    or mostly grass hay, he'll need more to get the same amount of
    nutrition out of it.  That's a hard question to answer with out
    seeing the hay and knowing how easy a keeper the horse is - or even
    if he's on any type of supplements.
    
    I'm sure you'll notice a difference in the amount of feed that this
    horse and the new one get.  How old is the TB?  What is he getting
    for feed now?  Are you going to continue jumping him?

    At the risk of igniting thousands of flames across the network,
    I'll share with you what I have heard from several vets and have
    found to be generally true myself regarding `Too much hay'.  You
    can't feed a horse too much hay, but you can feed too much grain.
    Our horses decide for themselves how much hay they want to eat since
    it is in front of them most of the day (the rest of the day they
    are grazing).  A horse has a very small cecum in relation to its
    size.  This is because they have evolved as natural grazing animals.
    Since they spend so much time doing this in small but continuous
    feedings, their bodies have adapted to these feeding habits.  Colic
    in grazing animals is considerably less than horses fed high
    concentration feeds.  Horses with adequate opportunity to exercise
    themselves and with a supply of good quality hay and clean water
    will not develop hay bellies regardless of how much hay they eat.
    I regulate the weight of my horses by varying the grain they are
    fed but never the hay.
    
    Regards,
    
    Bob
    

    I agree with Bob (no flames from here) about horses not eating too
    much hay.  If our horses don't want to eat all the hay we give them,
    they leave it.  We only feed our horses hay (plus they get to graze
    from 1-3 hours a day) because they are easy keepers and don't work
    hard enough to need the extra protein from grain.  When we get to
    the point in our conditioning program where they do need the extra
    protein, then we start them on grain (gradually) and haven't had
    to feed them more that 1 quart of grain a day each.
    
    						Jan 

I too feed unlimited hay... My horses have always had as much hay as they
want.  But this has always been a problem when I've boarded anywhere. Since hay
is more costly than grain, most boarding stables only throw a couple leaves
of hay morning and night.  My "hayburners" eat about a bale a day (30 pound
bales).  

    There are basically two types of hay.
    1) Grasses;                2) Legumes (peapod family-seeds in pods)
       - Timothy                  - Alfalfa
       - Prairie hay              - Red clover
       - Orchard grass            - Other clovers
       - Bromegrass
       - Bermuda grass
       - Kentucky bluegrass         
    
    Legumes are good source of protein, produced by taking nitrogen
    from the air.                                                              
    
    Timothy reaches peak quality when seed length reaches approx. two inches.
    Quality is less if seed length is larger or smaller than, although
    timothy hay is low in protein and minerals. Other grass hays are
    also low in proteins and minerals. Broodmares and growing horses
    should be supplimented with protein.                 
    
    First cut is usually of better quality than the later cuts because
    of the amount of sun available-stronger from spring into summer.
    
    Indications of good quality would be;
        - Early cut (1ST)
        - Leafy
        - Good color/greenish indicates good vitamin A & D content.
        - Free of weeds & stuble, dust and mold
        - Fine stemmed and pliable
        - pleasing aroma
                    
    The higher the quality of hay, the greater the nutrient content.
    As the crop matures, the protein and energy in it gradually decreases
    and the fiber content increases.
    
    I check for bad bales that may have got wet or baled when hay is
    still not cured by inserting my hand into the center of the bale.
    You should not feel extreme heat from the center for this usually
    indicates problems (combustive/mold).
    
    Mixed hays consist of both legumes and grasses, usually timothy
    and alfalfa, or red clover and timothy. They are generally excellent
    feed for horses.
    

    Generally 2 and 3rd cuttings of alfalfa hay are considered superior
    to 1st cutting alfalfa.  The 1st cutting alfalfa tends to be higher
    percentage stems and fewer leaves.  Also with alfalfa, depending
    on where the hay comes from--beware of blister beetle.
    

    	Just a couple of other tips,,if you get hay in or from the
    southwest(I'm in Colorado), it may look very yellow or brown. That's
    because it's often stored outdoors and bleached by the sun. Unlike
    in more humid,storing outside is a good practice here. In any case,
    it's a good idea to get a look inside a few bales of that hay to
    see what it's really like. You'll often find that the inside is
    green and leafy,and really fine hay.
    	If you're in New England,any bale that's significantly heavier
    than the others in the same lot,is a good prospect for being wet
    inside. When I lived out there,(and when I was just starting with
    horses) I once got a deal on hay "in the field" to get a good price,
    all I had to do was go get it and load it myself. I promptly noticed
    that some bales were much heavier than the rest,and loaded all of
    these. When I opened the first one at home,it was wet,mouldy,and
    HOT inside. I soon discovered that nearly every bale was like that.
    Since I'd picked it myself,I had no comeback on the person I'd bought
    it from. Fortunately for me,when I talked with him,he was sympathetic,
    and let me swap the unopened bales for good dry ones. Double the
    work,but a very good lesson. So in New England,extra heavy bales
    aren't always a bargain.
    
    	George
    

    
    Thanks for the info! It was just what I was looking for.  But now
    I have a couple more questions...
    
    RE:.1  So does this means that the following is true:
    
    	- The legumes are better sources of minerals/protien etc
    	- the grasses are better "filler", but not so good for minerals
    and protiens
    	- Thus, the best is to get a combination  so that their benefits
    will be compenstated for?
    
    

re: < Note 482.4 by STAR::NAMOGLU >

Your conclusions about the combined hays seem to be the common wisdom.
That is what the dept. of agriculture and the Clemson ag. extension
say. In order to qualify for drought damage replacement in SC two
years ago, I had to plant at least 10% legume.

    In addition to hay, you probably are allowing access to a trace
    mineral block. Free access to this often helps to compensate for
    missing nutrients in the hay. The only way to know for sure what
    nutrients are in the hay is to have it tested. A good book for
    reference on nutritional needs of horses is "FEEDING TO WIN". I
    have 5 reg. Belgian draft horses and each have a different diet
    geared to his/her own metabolism and nutritional requirements. I
    developed specific feeding programs for each horse based on research,
    advice from other owners and my vet, and close attention to the
    condition of each animal. Additionally, in my opinion, all feeding
    programs will fail if equal attention is not paid to worming, housing
    conditions, vaccinations, and exercise.
    
    Specific examples:
    
    1/ Yearling stud - 750 lbs.
           Timothy/alfalfa hay in front of him 24 hrs. per day.
           4 qts. plain crimped oats, 1 lb. Calf Manna, 1 oz. WBZ
           supplement, mixed together in a grain bucket twice a day.
    
    2/ 4-yr. brrodmare, in foal for April - 1900 lbs.
           25 lbs. Timothy/alfalfa hay per day.
           6 qts. Blue Seal "Charger", 1 oz. WBZ - twice a day.
           1/2 lb. Calf manna in the evening.(Extra protein source).
    
    Individual feeding programs seem difficult, but once we learned
    what each horse needed, my wife and I quickly fell into a routine
    and it goes quite quickly. We have found it takes 2-6 weeks to learn
    about a new horse sufficiently to desing an individual program.
    I should note that individual feeding is more expensive, but we
    only have as many horses as we can afford.
    
    Additionally, each horse is wormed every 8 weeks, vaccinated as
    needed, and exercised every day.
    
    When I get a new horse, I feed a standard ration the first few weeks
    until I get to know the horse. For every 1000 lbs. of horse, I feed
    20 lbs. of Timothy/alfalfa hay, 2 qts. of sweet feed, and 2 oz.
    of WBZ supplement. I then adjust amount/type of feeds from there.
    As an example, we got a 2-yr. old filly whose digestive system was
    upset by the richness of the sweet feed, so she had to be switched
    to a pelleted complete feed ("Trotter"). I don't usually pay much
    attention to what the previous owner may have been feeding, unless
    I learn that a particular feed may have caused problems. I find
    most people do not spend enough time studying horse nutrition, or
    their horses, to be reliable references as to what a particular
    animal should be fed.
    
    Unlimited FRESH water is also supplied each horse.