Conference noted::equitation

Re: < Note 358.0 by IMAGIN::KOLBE "Vacation countdown - 9" >

>	She then went on the say her arab was a little cow hocked but
>	that most arabs were and it was OK. 

What does "cow hocked" mean?

Also, in the dressage note, somebody was talking about "sickle hocked".
Can anyone tell me what those two terms mean?

thanks,

/ed

    cow-hocked is when the horses hocks turn in - it is noticable when
    standing behind the horse; the hocks turn in which causes the lower
    leg to turn out. 
    
    sickle-hocked is when a horses hocks are set too far under him when
    viewed from the side. The "ideal" hind leg conformatin is to drop
    a line straight down from the rump and it should touch the hock.
    if the hind legs are in front of this line (too far under the horse)
    then the horse is sickle-hocked.
    
    I hope these descriptions are understandable (I couldn't figure
    out a good way to draw them!)
    
    Linda

    Regardless of the breed, when it comes to world class breeding
    standards, all conformational defects count.  The difference is
    when you get to having to sort through the horses you will get in
    the less than world class ranks.  After showing halter horses for
    many years on the Arab circuit I can tell you that conformation
    faults and whether one is worse than the other depends more on the
    judge than the breed.  There are also many myths that are passed
    around on the rail like - All Arabs are cow-hocked so that doesn't
    count against them.  I'm not saying that lots of Arabs aren't
    cow-hocked but they do get it counted against them in the show ring
    and the sales ring.
    
    By the way to .1
    
    Stand behind a horse and draw two imajinary lines from the hip
    perpandicular to the ground.  If the hocks are on the inside of
    the lines then the horse is cow-hocked.
    
    
                     |     |
                     |     |
                      \   /
                      /   \   <-- Hocks
                     |     |
                                       
    
    Stand on the side of the horse looing at the hind quarters.  Draw
    a line from the point of the butt perpandicular to the ground. 
    If the cannon bones non-parallel to this line to the front, then
    the horse is sickle hocked.  This line is also used for numerous
    other conformational checks.
                            <    /|
                             \  / |
                              \ \ | 
                               > >|  <--- Hock
                              / / |
                             / /  |  <--- Cannon
                            '_'   |  
    
    

    re .0
    
    A lot of QHs are cow hocked too.  Some conformation problems seem
    to appear more in some horses than in others.  For instance, it
    is more common to see low withers in Arabs, Morgans, QHs than it
    is in TBs or Saddlebreds.  I've seen a lot more occurrences of parrot
    mouth in TBs than in other breeds.
    
    re .1
    
    'Cow hocked' refers to the angle of the horse's hocks when viewed
    from behind.  If you stand directly behind the horse and look at
    him standing fairly square, the hind feet toe out a bit which causes
    the lower legs to angle towards the outsides slightly instead of
    being staight forward.  This causes the hocks to be closer together
    than normal.
        
    Correct me if I'm wrong on this one:
    I think that 'sickle hocked' means that when viewed from the side the
    lower leg (from the hock to the hoof) seems to be angled too far
    forward under the body instead of being perpendicular to the ground.
    It almost looks like the horse will collapse because he doesn't
    have the firm support of the hind legs holding up the rear end.
                         
                                  
                        
    

    
    CALF KNEED!!  No not all quarter horses are not even a little.
    calf kneed... well i would have to say i wouldnt be haltering then
    if they were, cowhocked and sickle hocked seems to be somewhat..
    somewhat, now...acceptable for halter horses.
    
    tied under or tied out, or under the knee, or over the knee they
    will put undone stress on the knee, because the knees with this
    construction dont have the shock-absorbing mech. the horse needs and
    you will have greater chances
    of blowing out a tendon...in reining, a calf kneed horse hastrouble
    spinning because every time he puts his foot down, the knee locks
    back. to overcome the locked knee,to turn he needs to work harder
    to move the leg forward.
    
    cow hocked is another story... i was taught in denver when we were
    judging (ten years ago) that you want some cowhockness so that the
    qh can get around their bellys. today...(present) i'm not so sure
    of that now, especially if you rein that horse isnt going to stop
    straight and will have to step out so he wont fall on his face.
    hind end view... the cow hocked horse will have his toes turned
    out slightly and the hock will tip toward the tail. 
    sickle hocked is being tied under, so when you look at a horse,
    his back legs will be slightly under him. the angle of the leg
    from the hock area down to the fetlock will not be vertical.
    (side view)
                                              
    
    hope that helps... the show ring i think judges are looking for
    the most straight/correct horse.. studs should be near perfect,
    they can be producing 50 horses, a mare is a little less forgiving
    cause she'll produce one a year.
    
    	wendy .
    

	Thank you for all the replys. This then brings up the question,
	for those of us who will never be able to afford a world class
	horse, what is acceptable for you. When the vet did my pre-purchase
	exam he told me Taff's knees were more tied-in than he liked but
	that she would be fine for my purposes which are some low level
	jumping and competative trail. Several of you have mentioned very
	specific horse sports and which defect may be serious for that
	sport.

	Is there a book out that describes what conformation areas are
	important for the different sports. The problem I've had with
	some of the books I own is that they use terms I don't understand.
	It's become obvious to me that whats acceptable depends on what
	you plan to do with the horse. Several times I've looked at the
	compare a horse section in the practical and performance horseman
	magazines and I sure don't see most of what those guys are talking
	about when I look back at the pictures. 

	Also, this isn't conformation but I hear it mentioned all the time.
	Someone will say this horse has a kind eye and will be good, or that
	horse has a roman nose and will be stubborn. How can the horse's
	eye tell that? isn't that like saying this woman has blonde hair
	she must dumb. What's the connection? liesl

Thank you for all of the explanations. That's a pretty good
picture you drew, Bob.

Is "calf kneed" another condition or is that a synonym for cow hocked?

thanks,

/ed

    
    
    RE .7
    
    first of all i guess maybe we should ask how much... being tied
    under or over are just as bad... if i remember right you are from
    denver, there are plenty of good horses out there at a fair cheap
    price.  long comp trail rides he might be ok..but jumping, not me.
    	my suggestion to you is to buy in the fall early winter when
    people dont feel like feeding the horses out.  thats when we usually
    bought,or early early spring.
    
    	just my thought.
    
    	wen.
    

    re .8
    
    Ed,  'calf kneed' is a term used to describe the front legs. 
    I think it is used when looking at the front leg from the side,
    the knee joint is behind the imaginary vertical line you draw from
    the front of the forearm down perpendicular to the ground.  I'm
    not going to attempt to draw it, but viewed from the side, there
    seems to be a very slight concave curve to the leg from right above
    the knee to below the knee, almost as if someone stood in front
    of the horse, put a hand on each knee, and pushed towards the back
    of the horse (I guess this is how a calf's leg looks?).  
                
    
         
           
         
        
        
         
    
    

	Hmm, now I am confused. I thought calf-kneed and tied-in at the
	knee was the same thing (see what I meant about the terms). It
	was someone at our barn that had me thinking they were the same
	but by your description they aren't. As I understand it many of
	the warm bloods have a tendancy to be tied-in. This (to me) is
	when right under the knee the back of the leg seems to go in a 
	bit. When I look at my picture of the "ideal" QH this part of
	the leg is a bit (a small bit) less in circumference than the
	leg above the knee. 

	I worry some about whether I'm doing the right sports for my
	horse (or is that the other way around?) but I have also read
	more than one article where an experienced competitor has said
	they are still surprized at times by horses that are wrong being
	winners and horses that are perfect not cutting it. I do realize
	that those are exceptions rather than the rule. liesl

    Re: ....earlier note on "kind eye"
    
    The first thing I do is look a horse straight in the eye....it might
    sound crazy but I truly believe it is a real indicator of a horse's
    overall temperament and attitude.  It's hard to explain what a kind
    eye looks like but somehow, I guess it's instinct, you get to know
    that look.   Some people say that if you can see the white of a
    horse's eye it's a sign of a temperament problem (this might be
    true in tb's, qh's, etc), however, because I have apps (and the
    white sclera is a characteristic)....that couldn't apply to apps.
    
    Incidentally, I do the same thing with people.   
    
    J.

    Leg faults are relative (since there are "few" who are perfect.
    
    For example, a horse can be "tied in" at the knee and still be strong
    if the degree of "tie in" is not great and it is accompanied with
    STRONG knee joints, strong solid cannon bones with tight flat tendons
    as is the case with many of the warmbloods.
    
    Same thing with a horse that has other minor leg faults.  
    
    MANY years ago I had the opportunity to purchase a beautiful mare who
    was perfect except that she toed out.  I gulped and bought her,
    gambling that she would stay sound--because her legs were like iron,
    had nice big joints, and she traveled so straight it was not like she
    had any deviation in the leg at all.  (I always wondered if she had
    been trimmed incorrectly as a youngster--her breeding indicated she
    had no right to have such legs.)
    
    Now at the age of 25 and many years of extensive riding she is still
    going strong (teaching riding at my church camp back in Iowa).  Her
    legs are CLEAN and sound.  In fact she holds up better than the other
    horses at the camp (physically and mentally--loves all the attention).
    Plus she had about 10 foals, all straight legged and fancy movers. 
    
    Everything is relative (but the "rules" are certainly good guidelines). 

    After reading this note regarding "terminology", I have one question.
    What is a "warm blood"?  I've seen this term used throughout this
    conference, but have never heard it before.
    
    Thanks,
    Jeanne

    Hot/Warm/Cold Blood Horses.  
    
    A hot blood horse such as an Arab or Thoruoghbred is full of life
    and energy (although you might not always use the energy in the
    right direction).
    
    A cold blood horse such as a Shire or Clydesdale is normally a more
    placid animal, bred for this feature to make it more tractable for
    working the land.
    
    A warm blood is a breed in between these two most likely the breed
    was created as a cross between a hot and cold blood.
    
    Although the Thoroughbred is now considered a hot blood, when the
    breed was created (around 250 years ago) as a cross between four
    Arab stallions and the English cold bloods (Shires etc.) they would
    have been considered as warm bloods.
    
    Although the hot/warm/cold blood is an indication, in general, of
    temperment. Do not use it so, it is possible to have a placid hot
    blood and a lively cold blood.
    
    Mike.
    

    Mike's last statement is very true. I know of someone who owns a
    TB/draft cross (percheron I think), and the horse seemed to have
    inherited the body of the draft horse, and the mind of a TB instead
    of an even 1/2 and 1/2.
    
    The most common use of the term warmblood today is when people are
    referring to the European breeds such as: Dutch/Danish warmblood,
    Swedish warmblood, Hanoverian, Holsteiner, Wesphalian, Trakehener
    (although the trakehener can sometimes display characteristics of
    the 'hot'bloods).  In actuality, most of these breeds were light
    draft horses, but a lot of TB blood and perhaps Arabian blood have
    been interspersed into the breeds to refine them.  Certain registries
    have not closed their stud books since they are still developing
    the breeds, therefore, a horse that is 1/2 Swedish warmblood, and
    1/2 Hanoverian (or other warmblood) can still be registered as a
    full Swedish warmblood.  As you can see it gets pretty confusing!

    
    A recent reply in the dressage note mentioned Dr Deb which reminded me
    that I've been meaning to dust off this topic.
    
    Now, I thought I knew what a good horse was and how to pick 'em. I've 
    been evaluating them for a gillion years & read all sorts of books and 
    articles on conformation. Even some of Dr Deb's articles in EQUUS but
    I never made a habit of reading them because I didn't think I needed
    to!
    
    We're brushing up on the subject because we'll have to buy a young
    horse in the next year or two. So, I decided to read all 3 volumes of
    Dr Deb's books on conformation analysis. They are based on her EQUUS
    articles but include more discussion of structure & function as well as 
    more pictures showing anatomy, etc.
    
    I've finished the first two and am I ever embarassed at how ignorant I
    really was! So far, I've learned more about our horses than I knew
    before...such as:
    
    	The one that looks like it has a long back has the shortest back
    	when compared to its body length...(this one's my battleship, Melinda)
    
    	The one that looks like it has the shortest back has the longest
    
    	The one that looks like it has the most bone in its foreleg has the
    	least when compared to its body weight
    
    	Why it's been so hard to teach Ben collection and why the mares are
    	so good at it
    
    	Why Ellie can't extend well but Ben and Charity can
    
    	Why our horses have so much "bottom" & endurance
    	
    	The one that looks like it has a short neck  doesn't
    
    
    You still have to watch out for Dr Deb's breed specific
    generalizations which are sometimes wrong, uninformed or at best
    offensively worded. But, when it comes to form and function, she does know 
    what she's talking about. 
    
    These books will help you pick out the right sort of conformation for
    your type of riding. I know I'll be able to pick a better horse for
    having read them. Don't misunderstand me. The horses we have now are 
    pretty well built. But, through ignorance, I overlooked one or two important
    conformational flaws which impact how good a dressage horse these guys
    could be. 
    
    Before you buy or breed another horse, you might do well to read 
    Dr Deb's books.