Conference noted::equitation

    We've had great luck with a slat-sided four-horse livestock trailer.
     The openness of it lets the horse see out; he won't feel
    claustrophobic.  Maybe you can borrow one to try the tying and then
    carry him in the trailer for short distances.  Praise him after
    the ride and treat him to carrots, if you're so inclined.  If he
    can begin to think of the trailer as HIS place, a safe retreat,
    he'll like it even more.  Without knowing how big your trailer is,
    perhaps you could let him stay in it for a while, loose on a bed
    of straw like a stall.  My trailer becomes two box stalls (the front
    has plywood on the divider and on part of the sides) when we go
    to shows that don't have stalls available.
    
    I assume your trailer is hitched to something whenever he enters
    it?
    
    Some horses also prefer to be tied backwards.  When the front box
    if full -- and those horses are tied to the divider, facing backwards
    -- I can tie one horse in the back box facing either the left front
    corner or the rear right corner.  The single horses seem to like
    standing on the diagonal...more security with all four legs at
    different angles to the trailer.  (Is that what I meant to say?
     What I mean is, he's standing like the points of a parallellogram.)
    

	I Once owned a pony who was terrified of boxing, OK the lack of
	size did help (13 hh) but by the time I had finished with him
	he was sold with the genuine description of "good, quiet easy 
	boxer".

	The methods I used were - he was always fed in the box, starting
	with putting the feed bucket on the ramp, so that he had to be
	standing on it to eat, the bucket was progressively moved 
	further and further into the box.  Once he was moving fairly
	easily into the box, it was moved into his field and as well as
	still always leading him into the box for his feed, his haynet
	was also hung at the far end of the box.  After a couple of days
	his normal shelter in the field was blocked off so that if he
	wanted to get out of the wind, rain, flies etc, he had to use the
	box. It took about 3 weeks from start to finish for him to become 
	totally at ease with moving in and out of the box.

	The box should be filled with fairly deep straw or peat as this
	helps to deaden the "boom" his hooves make and provides safe 
	non-slippery footing.  If the ramp is slippery as well, it will
	help if you get some hessian cloth or matting and nail it to
	the ramp, this will give the horse more confidence.

	Go slowly, reassure him all the time.  The bigger the trailer
	the better, and once the horse is confidently entering the box 
	by himself, start putting the partition back in stages, first
	so it is attached at the front with the back end pushed 
	diagonally back against one wall, so the horse has to work out
	how to back out of the box, and gradually move the partition 
	back until it is in travelling position over a number of days,
	
	It does take time, and as long as you take it slowly at the 
	horse's pace, and if he ever frightens himself for some 
	reason, go back a few stages and work up again.

	Hope this helps.

	CJA

    
    I have one horse that was in a terrible trailer accident.  For
    years we had trouble loading him after that.  The only way he
    will load now is for one person to lead him on and two others
    to come up behind him with a rope.  Usually, just the feel of
    the rope is enough to propell him forward onto the trailer.
    We've never had to drag him onto the trailer with the rope.
    
    Just a suggestion, but it worked for me.
    
    

    Do you keep your horse in a paddock with electric fence around it?
    I have a friend who leads her horse to the trailer, but the thing
    just will not get on. So now she holds a little 3-food piece of
    electric fence wire behind her back until the horse is standing 
    at the ramp, then she pulls it out and around back of the horse.
    The horse sees it, and loads himself!

    
    YOU DIDN'T MENTION IT, BUT HAVE YOU TRIED LOADING ANOTHER, QUIET
    HORSE FIRST? ALSO, IF THE TRAILER HAS A SIDE EXIT DOOR, OR PREFERABLY
    TWO, LEAVE THEM OPEN. OTHERWISE, THE OTHER SUGGESTIONS ON SLOW AND
    EASY ARE ALL YOU CAN DO.
    
    I HAVE HEARD OF ONE OTHER TECHNIQUE, BUT IT SOUNDS A LITTLE ODD.
    ONE FARM I KNOW USES AN OLD "JUNK" TRAILER WITH THE FRONT CUT OUT
    AND A RAMP AT EITHER END. NEW OR YOUNG HORSES ARE WALKED THROUGH,
    AND TIED IN, THIS "TRAILER" UNTIL THEY SEEM SECURE ENOUGH TO GO
    ON TO A REGULAR TRAILER.
    

    If anyone knows all the tricks to trailering balky horses, it's
    us.  It seems that every horse I have ever owned has had some bad
    experience at one time or another, and for some, it was all in their
    heads!  I'll tell you some things that I've done. (They weren't
    always the most practical things, but they worked.)
    
    Blindfolding- I assume you have tried this.  If your horse isn't
    high strung, walk him around blindfolded, over sheets of plywood,
    or anything else you can convince him to go near, all the while
    rewarding and praising him in your best "good boy" voice.  Try to
    lead him into the trailer that way (after a lot of priming beforehand)
    If you have a failed attempt, lead him around in a few circles to
    confuse him then try again (how quickly they forget!)
    
    Make it a big joke- I am very playful with my horses.  We play "tag"
    and all kinds of other games. My horse loves to play.  I can sometimes
    fool around with him for awhile, taking him all over the place on
    a leadline, over bridges, etc. and I can laugh him into the trailer
    before he realizes what he's doing.
    
    Hmm.. nothing else off the top of my head, but NEVER hit or try
    to force a horse.  Braingames are more effective and best for their
    future trailering.  A horse at my barn once reared and fell over
    trying to be pushed in-that horse will never forget that.  It used
    to be a "hard trailerer" now it's a "non-trailerer!"
    
    stacie

I am having a small trailering problem.  I wanted to get some fresh ideas
from you.

There are 2 horses involved.  The 1st is a 8yr old Arab mare named Shree.
Shree used to trailer w/out a problem when I had Joey (I have sold Joey
recently)  Shree loved Joey and would do anything he did and do anything to
be with him.

Now that he is gone, she will not do anything, especially trailer!  We praticed
for weeks coaxing her in w/ her grain.  She will know walk in w/out a problem
and she is not scared...but as soon as she takes a bit of grain she walks 
out immediately.

As soon as we put up the bum bar she gets nervous and she rears and scoots
under the bar and out of the trailer...then we are back to square 1, and it
takes us days to get her back to walking in the trailer w/out fear.

The trailer is a ramp style.  We tried to get close the ramp and forget about
the bum bar but she is to quick for us.

The second horse is a 7yr old Arab Gelding named Sultan.  Sultan has trailers
before.  Infact when I went to get him he only gave us about 5min of grief,
but he did go in.  

I was going to go to a show and I thought "No problem" for Sultan, he will
go in..well..he didn't.  So the next few weeks I praticed w/ him to get him
to walk in on his own.  I again tried to coax him w/ his grain.  It worked
at first, he would walk right in w/out a care but he would take a bit and
run out before we could get the bar up or he door closed.

We did get the bar up on on occasion.  After that, he shook but was basically
fine...well since that day..we can not even get him to steep foot on the
ramp.  

I have a feeling that Sultan is board w/ this whole idea of going on the
trailer, but I do want him and Shree on!  It has been 1 month since we have
been praticing and we are no where better off then when we started.

Let me point out that we do not have any walls we can park the trailer near.
we do not have a fence we can park a trailer near..we have tried the lunge
line behind the bum w/4 men on each side of he lunge line...and a lunge
whip tickling them behind the back leg.  They do not want to go on easily.

Any Another Ideas....

Thanks,

Louisa

    I have tried these methods (lunge whip, ,etc)
    
    I had this mare that *USED to walk  into the trailer when you flipped 
    lead rope over her back , and she still to this day 
    likes the trailer, but there are times she doenst want to
    get in only after a fight with her. but after harrassing her for
    30 minutes she figured she had enough and then she'd just walk in.
    horses goes through this stage... i think they associate trailer
    loading with different surrounding , even tho its home from a horseshow
    .
    rearing i'm not to sure about, if it were my horse and you had a 
    place to back to horse trailer next to the paddock (hitched up)
    feed her in the horse trailer for a couple of weeks, let her 
    get her grain  and hay in there. 
    she doesnt want to go into the trailer she/he doesnt get grain.
    (i'd try grain first since she might not to decide to go in for a
    couple of days.and the horse could get a little ribby :*)
     and then after a week hay in the trailer.
    then do the water. she sounds like shes just be rowdy and rather than
    fighting her this might be a better way. and then take her for 
    rides later (not always to shows, they figure out fast that a trailer
    ride means ; new stall, different water, different noises and 
    lots of riding :*0
    
    
    wendy o'
    
    
    
    
    		wendy o'
    
    

    
    Since your horses are reacting by rearing and shaking, my first 
    question is -- 
     
    1.  How big is your trailer.  Is the trailer BIG enough for your horses?
    2.  Is the floor in sound condition?  The horses may be reacting to 
        not-so-solid footing.  They sometimes sense when the floor is not
        good before us humans do. 
    3.  Is the trailer securely attached to your towing vehicle when you
        try to load them?  If it isn't the extra movement may be causing
        some problems.
    4.  Is the trailer bright and open or is it like walking into a cave?
        Are your front windows open so the horses can see out?  Many horses
        get a little claustrophobic walking into something very dark. 
    
    If none of these are the case, then I suggest schooling the horses on 
    the ground WITHOUT the grain to go forward when you ask (a lungewhip 
    tapping just below the widest part of the behind is effective).  I am
    not talking about BEATING here.  Just tapping so they respond by 
    going forward each and every TIME you ask and WHERE you ask.  
    
    I would work along or with just one other person at the most.  Don't 
    try to get them to go forward by pulling.  Use the tapping on the rear.
    Very often when you start pulling on the head or pulling on a butt rope
    the horse responds by flying backwards.
    
    Get each horse to step up on the ramp by asking with your voice and
    the tapping.  Then stop.  If they backup before you ask, convince them
    quickly and surely that is NOT the correct response.  And just keep 
    at it.  Reward them with kind words and/or a pat when they do what you
    want.  And reward them with strong words and/or a pop with the
    lungewhip when they don't.  The severity depends on your creatures.
    
    Mary Jo

Thanks for the words.

To answer some more questions:

>1.  How big is your trailer.  Is the trailer BIG enough for your horses?1.  

	Yes, it is big enought for 2 horses

>2.  Is the floor in sound condition?

	Yes, the floor and the trailer are in very good shape

>3.  Is the trailer securely attached to your towing vehicle

	Yes, we allwasy have it hooked up to the truck when we pratice

>4.  Is the trailer bright and open

	Yes, it has a door on each side and a very large opening door/window
	in the very fround of the trailer...it is very bright inside

Shree will walk in w/ the lead over her back and she is *not* scared on her
way in...she will just [not] stay in the trailer for more then 1min.  We hae
been doing this every day for 1 month.

Sultan was going fine and he was standing there for about 3min, before backing
out...so the next time he went in, we put up the bum bar and close the ramp.
we left him in for 20min and then let him out and told him what a good boy
he was and the next time...he would go near the trailer.  We keept the doors
open and we talked to him from outside the trailer and watched him eat his
grain....I thought we had made a major break throught...till the next time
we tried.  now we are back to square #1

last night he did step up in 1/2way...but that was it.

We have had 30days of this..I know it's not a long time, but it is just so
fustrating...I want to show in the worst way...I have a great horse under
saddle and a nice trailer...and I can't get anywhere...I guess I just need
moral support from my fellow horses people.

Thanks for listening.

Lousia

We have found that a regular broom sometimes works better than a lunge whip.

I also think that, once you get the horses into the trailer, it's a good idea
to go for a ride.  That way they have to focus on balancing with the motion
and they forget that they want out. I've known horses who stand very calmly
while in motion to get very agitated if they have to stand on the trailer
while it's not moving. 

We just shipped out a 3 year old gelding who has never been anywhere or done
anything.  This little charmer is a problem child.  Not mean or nasty but
most definitely not signed up for the work ethic.  The trailer he left on is
a stock trailer and we had the dividers arranged so he had a box stall and
wouldn't have to be tied because he doesn't know how to do that.  It took us 
only about 10 minutes to get him loaded.  We let him walk up to the trailer,
sniff, look, and then walked him away.  (The experts say it's all just walk
and whoa, walk and whoa.)  Anyway, we then walked back to the trailer, he
sniffed and decided "Weeeelll, maybe I don't want to do this."  So I just
touched his back end with the broom and he very calmly walked right up.
No problem.  We closed the doors and he stood calmly looking out.
We didn't make him stand for very long though...started up the truck and
got on the road so he wouldn't have time to think.  He arrived safely at
his destination (only two towns away, about 20 minutes), strolled calmly
off the trailer and that's it.  Nothing to it.

gwen

    I had a trailer about two years ago and when I got it, I knew it need a
    new floor, so I put a new floor down had some welding done and
    generally tided it up - it took about 6 months in total and then the
    day came to try my horse in it.  I tried all sorts of things to get him
    in, and eventually I managed, but one day I went to a show and he would
    not box to come home, so I had to hack him home, it was not funny,  I
    then decided that the trailer was too small for him and I sold it as I
    was not really happy about him travelling in it as you hear so many
    stories about accidents happening.
    
    I am now lucky enough now as I have my own lorry which can take up to
    three horses and my horse loads and travels really well in it, and he
    can see where he is going.  I have found in the past that he traveled
    a lot easier with another horse so that might help if your horse is a
    nervous traveller and you want to get them used to travelling.
    
    Its so frustrating when your horse wont load, I have been there and I
    know what its like, but dont give up and don't loose you temper with
    them as it just dose not work.
    
    Good luck
    
    Wendy

    It sounds to me as if the horses know they can get away with not
    loading, but please don't take that as an insult!  We've all been
    there, and know that if a horse even slightly senses that he
    doesn't have to do something, he won't!!  
    
    I recently learned a trick that really works.  Run a chain lead
    rope through the ring on the left side of the halter, underneath
    the horses top lip along his upper gum, and back out to the ring
    on the right side of the horses halter.  All you do is apply very
    little pressure, because thats all you will need, and the horse
    will be just uncomfortable enough to follow you anywhere.  Its not
    mean or cruel, and won't hurt the horse unless of course you really
    start yanking on the lead.  Personally I feel that there is no 
    excuse for a horse that has ridden in a trailer not to load, unless
    of course he has had a very bad experience in the trailer.  I have
    also used the broom trick, but have in certain cases seen it make 
    the horse more agitated.  Then again, I hate nothing worse than 
    wasting an hour or so trying to load a horse!
    
    Let us know what happens.
    
    

    I have a bad loader as well, at least semi-bad. He has been known to
    take as much as an hour to decide to cooperate, and also to load as
    fast as immediately. He's not scared, he just knows darn well that
    being loaded onto the trailer means leaving his pasturemate behind.
    Put her on the trailer first and he'll push you out of the way to get
    in beside her.  In fact, this weekend we are going to do a small local
    show. We have decided to try the idea of bringing his buddy along for
    ease of loading, but Im worried that this may backfire once we get
    there in having them neigh for each other back and forth while he's in
    classes without her. If this happens, he's just going to have to learn
    to load by himself. 
    
    I like Linda's chain over the lip idea! In my horses case it is blatant
    disobedience, this sounds like a worthwile suggestion! We have tried
    will very little success the longe line behind the butt routine...he
    learned very quickly that all he has to do is swing his butt to the
    side regardless of the longe line.......unfortuneatly unless you have
    several people at the other end of it, a horse will outpower you
    everytime. The longe whip was useless, too, he'd rather get cracked
    than leave his buddy behind.  Feeding him in it is fine, he'll do it
    no problem. Will go in, stand calmly and eat his grain, and wait to be
    told to back out. Unless the trailer is hooked up to the truck...I
    know, it's not recommended to load a horse into an unhooked trailer,
    but I do block the wheels  and the hitch is resting on cement blocks,
    it's never been a problem.  All this and not once has this horse ever
    gotten away with not loading, once we attempt it we keep at it until
    he's on there one way or another. Some of them are just downright
    obnoxious at time. :-)   
    
    Good luck, and no you are not alone! :-)
    

    We solved the backing off the trialer problem with a rope and a chain.
    
    1. Hook about 50 feet of rope to one side of the rear of the trailer.
    
    2. Measure off an appropriate amount of the rope ( about the width of 
       the trailer ) and attach a snap or a clip so you can connect the
       rope to the other side of the trailer at the appropriate moment.
    
    3. Hook a 6-7 foot chain to the opposite side of the rear of the
       trailer.  The chain should also have a clip allowing it to be
       attached to the first side of the trailer.
    
    4. Loop the rope out on the ground behind the horse being loaded.
       As the horse is lead toward the trailer, a second person picks up
       the rope and follows the horse, eventually wrapping the rope
       around the rear of the horse as it loads on the trailer.
    
    5. Encourage the horse up the ramp, if necessary, with the rope
       around its rear.  By now the rope is stretched out across the rear
       of the trailer, blocking the horses exit.
    
    6. Snap the rope in place with the clip ( it is now the appropriate
       moment ), while picking up the loose end of the chain and stretching
       it across the rear of the trailer and attaching it to the first
       side. 
    
    7. Now the horse is convinced that it really can't back out and you
       have time to close the tailgate on put the butt bar in place.
             
    We found that you can practice this a few times even without the horse.
    By the time the horse is brought up to the trailer for loading you can
    be well-practiced and convincing.
    
    Good luck.
    
    John Wood

re:.7
Well you have EXACTLY the same situation I ran into with my horse. I tried
everything, I even had the help of experts (who got the beast loaded after a
hour of trying everything mentioned before.) But it was an exercise in "who
is the most stubborn". The horse did not want to load simply because it
decided, "I will not go." I could not very well call for help every time I
needed to load him. That's ridiculous. 

We went through the stages of get one foot on the ramp, then another, bribe 
with grain, (which he turned his nose up at) tap behind the legs, (which only
annoyed him) use a corn broom (which really got him mad), butt ropes (which
did nothing) chain over the nose, (which made him more stubborn) and each
time it was always starting all over again. I wasn't going to spend an hour-
plus each time attempting to load the horse. The horse was smart, it knew all
it had to do was stand there and do _nothing_. Until... I produced an apple.
I almost couldn't get out of the way fast enough as he lunged into the
trailer after the apple I was holding. Since then I've had no problems. 
He even loads by himself now.

Fluke? strategy? who knows? Sometimes the simplest thing works.

Ed P

    My horse hasn't been trailered much, so he is very
    aprehensive of that "thing" we try to put him into!
    He has gone in with very little fuss every time but
    this past Sunday!
    He refused to follow me in for the first time!
    After about three tries, with hubby trying to drive
    him in from behind, I could tell he was playing
    a game, just being stubborn, and not wanting to leave
    his pasturepal...
    My hubby took the leadline, I got behind, and all I
    did was say one word: "get" and touched him near the tail
    so he knew I was behind him.
    
    He went right in!  
    
    We couldn't figure it out!  Of course, he's only been trailered
    maybe a dz times in his life, but we intend to fix that lack of
    experience every weekend this year...
    
    L-  
    

    When I was a kid, I had a mare who would do anything for an treat,
    including loading.  I didn't have a trailer though and I used to hire
    other people to trailer her.  When I a had a new guy trailering her, he
    had a step up and she decided not to go in.  I told him I just needed
    to go and get a treat but he told me that would *never* work.  For the
    next hour he, another guy and I tried to get the horse in.  Believe me,
    they almost lifted her and carried her in.  They finally gave up and
    said they couldn't trailer her.  I convinced them to stay a minute while
    I went and got an apple.  She followed me quietly into the trailer when
    I showed it to her ;^)
    

    
    	re.16, Ed -  A friend of mine told me a similar story, but she
    	could not find an apple to tempt her horse into the trailer with.
    	Knowing he was a curious horse, she rooted in her fridge to find
    	something that would pique his curiosity. The only thing she could
    	find was a large onion, which she cut in half. Sure enough, he 
    	went right into the trailer to investigate this strange smell and
    	even tried a big bite of it. At the show, they were doing well in
    	Model class, but suddenly the judge stopped short, sniffed, walked
    	back to her horse, sniffed again, and said `excuse me, but do I
    	smell ONION?'. :)  She still won the class....
    
    	Sherry
    

    We spent over an hour Saturday trying to get a stubborn gelding
    into the trailer to go home from the Paint show.  We had lots of
    help and advice.  The gelding has started having problems trailering
    just recently, and it's getting worse.
    
    We tried everything Saturday, grain, apples, chain over the nose, on
    the gums, lung whips, butt ropes.....this horse just planted all four
    legs on the ground and wasn't moving.  It was really funny to see one
    person try to do the `one leg at a time' thing with his legs locked
    straight.
    
    We ended up getting him in, finally, when 2 strong people linked arms
    and lifted his butt off the ground and shoved him in, and closing the
    door quickly behind him.  This bugger had also wedged his rear feet
    under the trailer so we couldn't lift them.....talk abut stubborn!
    
    The gelding wasn't the least bit scared and no matter what we did, we
    definatly didn't inflict any pain - he just wasn't gonna load.
    
    I always had good luck wrapping a long lead rope across a center pole
    and reeling the horse in, this way if the horse pulled back the rope
    wouldn't slide out of your hands and he wouldn't be able to go
    anywhere.  I've seen others do something similar but also looping the 
    rope behind the legs.  
    
    Good luck, nothng ruins a day more than a horse that dosen't load.
    
    M

    Re .19
    
    Hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa
    
    

    
    
    
    	This may sound really funny .. but my mother always uses 
    	a broom  ( a straw one).. 
    
    	My sisters horse never goes in.. we loop the line
    	around the center pole also but, to break
    	this bad habit we feed her in her trailer (left
    	the trailer right out in the pasture and if she
    	wanted to eat she had to go in.)
    
    	I never forced her because it just reinforced her
    	fear.  
    
    	The baby (1 year old) loads like a champ but, I have
    	feed her when I didn't need to go anywere in the trailer.
    
    	Best of luck.. It can be such a pain.. 

i've seen the "reel the horse in" trick work, but it's worth being careful
with. if the horse _really_ panics and starts to struggle they may fall and
slide under the ramp and/or trailer due to the lever action of the attaching
line. 

you may then have the dual nightmare of a horse that needs hospital 
attention quickly, and _still_ won't load ...

    
    Thanks for all your notes.  I will try and not give up.  Sultan will
    not let you put a chain anywhere on his face...if he feels a pull he
    will rear.  
    
    I hired Paul Hebert to come up and school him..and Paul came lastnight.
    Well I feel better about myself..Paul could not get Sultan in for
    anything...He work on him for 2hrs!
    
    We are now going to build a shoot..like a cattle shoot.  and that way
    it will give Sultan no where to go but in.
    
    The ropes do not work, apples, corn and starvation do not work.  So
    it's shoot time....buy the time I done w/ buying a trailer and buying
    a horse and paying for a trailer and building a
    shoot....gaaawwed...just don't tell my husband his tax check is spent.
    
    Lou

    Since I trained Sultan to trailer, I guess I should enter my two cents.
    I am surprised that Paul could not get him in but sometimes that
    happens to us all.  
    	First of all I generally use two leads when starting a horse.  One
    is a regular cotton lead which is very long and it what is used as the
    primary lead.  The second is a chained lead which I put OVER the nose. 
    The chain is only used to punish unacceptable behaviour, one of which
    is rearing.  You should never put the chain under the chin since the
    natural reaction will be for the horse to move away from pressure (in
    other words up).
        The leads are only used for directing the head, never for pulling
    the horse in.  All impulsion must come from the rear so thats where you
    start.  I use the Shiela Varian method of safety zones.  You allow the
    horse to find a place in front of the ramp which is comfortable for
    him/her.  When the horse is settled (10 to 15 seconds) in this safety
    zone, you move it forward about a foot.  This means the horse must move
    forward until in the new safety zone.  Wait again until settled and
    repeat the process.
        Moving the horse forward can be done several ways but I usually use
    a small whip and tap the horse low on the back leg lightly with slowly
    increasing tempo and pressure.  When movement begins, reward by backing
    off but make sure that the horse moves well into the safety zone.  You
    don't have to be abusive about this, but you should make it more
    unpleasant the further away from the safety zone the horse gets.
        If the horse rears, use the chain lead once or twice and
    concentrate on getting back to the safety zone.  It is important to let
    them know that you will not tolerate this behavior but you should do
    this in a workmanlike manner - Don't lose you temper - .
        When you get inside, if the horse backs out, don't try to stop them
    since you want them to think it is more pleasant inside than out, just
    start the process over until they will stand quietly in the trailer. 
    At that time I would button it up and go for a ride.  Arabs will get
    bored quickly but they are smart enough to concentrate on a good
    footing as you are moving down the road.
        Using this method, and some others for extreme cases I have not had
    a horse that couldn't be loaded in almost twenty years.  If you would
    like some help, I'd be glad to come over and give it a try.
    
    Regards,
    
    Bob
    

    
    
    Hi Bob,  Paul did all the things you talked about and Sultan still
    would not go in...you know Paul and you can take comfort that Paul
    never looses his cool.  He was gentle but firm w/ Sultan.
    
    Paul said that now Sultan reliezs that there is a way out (by going
    off the left and right side of the ramp)  and he is being bratty about
    going on.  this is where the shoot is going to come into place, he
    will not be able to go to the left or to the right.
    
    We could of gotten him on, you can *almost* allways get a horse on, I
    want Sultan go want to go on and to allways go on w/out a problem. 
    Pual is going to come up twice a week, your more then welcome to come
    up and lend a hand..
    
    One good note!  Shree is loading perfectly now! :-) she walks right in
    all by her self and stands there!  yahooo!  1 down and 1 go to.
    
    Lou

    Hmmm....building a cattle shute....interesting concept! (:
    
    Mine is just being a spoiled brat, but he is going in!
    My trailer is a step up, no ramp...I think this week will be 
    the crop technique on the hind end.  It nerve racking enough
    going to a show, without them acting bratty...! (:
    
    L-   

    Building a cattle shute may just transfer the problem from the trailer
    to the chute! Just imagine the difficulties you could get into with the
    thing!
    
    I'd be VERY desparate before I tried a chute.
    
    John

    How about loading another horse (a buddy) first, and then yours next.
    My Morgan one morning gave me much grief loading, then I decided to out
    smart him by loading our mare first, then the morgan, then unload the
    mare, and off we went. He didn't know what hit him... by the way, he got 
    an extra feeding of grain for that one and the situation never surfaced 
    again.
    
    Yet we also have an Appy who never loaded properly since the day he
    was purchased. The trailer was parked in his paddock for the summer,
    of which he would eat and drink out of exclusively. Once he got the
    idea that this was a food bin, I walked him in, tied and closed it
    up, and feed as usual. I must ad that the first time I walked him in
    and tied him, he was in unbreakable gear. He tried with all he had to
    break it and exit the trailer, but he lost and gave up after much
    swet. He was then fed his normal dinner. When he finished his grain, 
    I would open and untie, and calmly ask for a back. At first he shot out 
    like a cannon, which was to be expected. When he did, I closed up the 
    trailer and that was the end of dinner. He finally came to the conclusion 
    that if he backed out calmly, the trailer would remain open, and he could 
    finish his chow. Then I loaded him, went around the block, back to the
    paddock, and fed dinner. Few times of this, we would load, trailer
    someplace local, hop out and have dinner. This gave him the idea that
    trailering always ment food, his favorate passtime.
    It all worked out in the end, but it did take a while.
    Haven't trailered since the year before, but I'm sure he'll think twice
    about not loading.
    
    It comes down to out-smarting. Find what he enjoyes the most (food)
    and make this a reward for proper behavior. I'm sure if he missed
    breakfast, he'd listen to the dinner call.
    
    Dave'
    

    The idea of the chute will work.  We have often done this using people
    on each side to keep a horse from escaping that direction with no ill
    effects.
    
    I'm glad to hear that Paul will be helping.  I have full confidence
    that he will be able to help you get him loaded again, so I'll just
    hang in the wings.
    
    Bob
    

    
    Just wanted to tell you all that I and Sultan trailerd for the 1st time
    this weekend and we had a blast.  He was the most perfect loader I
    could ask for (now that is).  Thanks for all your concern and ideas!
    
    Louisa

    alright.. I'll bite..
    
    
    what x-actly did you do.
    
    (you told us you would tell us now ;*)  )
    I'm making you keep your word :*)
    
    wendy-o

    
    Wendy, I had a trainer come up for a few days.  One of Sultans problems
    was that when ever you got infrount of him and gave the slightes tug
    he would rear.  The trainer got him over that problem.  Once Sultan
    learned not to rear and to walk when he was given a slight tug, he
    just started to walk on by him self...he was never affraid of the
    trailer to begin with, he was just stubbon.  We have trailerd a few
    tiems not and he has not even tried to hesitate!
    
    With Shree, we did that food approach.  She is the type of horse that
    will do anything for food (unlike Sultan who could care less) we worked
    w/ her for a few week..when ever she took a steap inside we have her a
    hand full of grain and told her was good.  We only got her 1/2 way in
    for awhile...then she just got use to the trailer and she walked all
    the way in and stayed and eat.
    
    now all she has to do is see her grain bucket insdie and she's on!  WE
    can't keep her out of the trailer now.
    
    If you want to here about the how the trainer got Sultan not to rear
    you can call me for that one, it's kinda hard to explain in a note.
    
    Lou_who_is_off_to_another_show_sunday
    
    

    Has anyone ever dealt with a horse that rears *in* the trailer and
    ends up hanging front legs over the chest bar?
    
    Background: this is a 3.5 year old colt.  He is generally
    well-mannered, but has had limited handling/training (in my opinion,
    anyway).  He belongs to a friend, who is planning to move him from
    the Concord NH area to Concord Mass for some time with a pro trainer.
    She has tried trailering him a few times in the past, and while he
    will go on with a bit of prompting, once he's in there he rears up and
    hooks both front legs over the chest bar.  While he hasn't been hurt,
    he has done some nasty dents to the front of her trailer with flailing
    hooves.  Once hung up like this, he panics, struggles, and in general
    it's a real mess until he can be unloaded.  Last year, he was shipped
    from Michigan to NH by a commercial shipper - who reported that he
    was nervous the whole time and at one point actually escaped the stall
    by doing exactly what he tries to now - climbed over the bar into the
    compartment.
    
    

    Hi Linda,
    
    That's really scary when they act like that on the trailer.  I would
    talk to the vet and get some tranquilizer for him before she ships
    him.  That will at least prevent him and his handlers from getting 
    hurt.
    
    Linda

    Well, I don't have specific experience with this particular 
    fear-of-the-trailer related behavior, but I do have experience with
    other equally dangerous behaviors (going under the breast bar and out
    the escape door, flipping around and exiting forward instead of backing
    out) which spring from the same source, fear.  My horse too, had been
    hauled before and would get in with a little bit of prompting.
    
    It seems to me that the problem stems from this colt's extreme fear of
    being locked in a place he feels he can't get out of.  To overcome the
    problem you have to overcome the fear.   Trailering him (i.e. closing
    him in and hauling him) while he is still in this stage is dangerous
    (as you have already witnessed)  and counter-productive (he ain't
    getting better about it is he).  This colt must learn to feel
    comfortable in that trailer before he can be safely hauled.
    
    Teaching him not to rear in the trailer won't address the root of the
    problem (at least what I think the root of the problem is), his fear.
    Address the fear and the rearing will cease.  
    
    I fixed my horse using John Lyons methods.  I used only his book, I
    think to have seen his video would have been nice too.  It took me alot
    longer than John says it should to get my horse comfortable. But hey,
    it was my first time trying this and I've got the grey goose of the
    century!.  My horse  is now a safe hauler even though he'd rather not
    be in the trailer.  He loads on his own, stands quietly (though he is
    still nervous he is no longer dangerous), and waits to back out until I
    give the command. He gets more accepting of the trailer with each ride.
    FWIW.

    Linda:  I suggested she contact her vet about tranqs beforehand, but
    she's reluctant to use them.  I also suggested she at least try the
    'calm and easy' paste, which she is thinking about doing.  I wish she
    would, Im concerned for her own safety, he's a big colt at ~1200 lbs
    and very powerful. Still, the problem needs to be solved, she can't go 
    tranq'ing him everytime she wants to go somewhere.
    
    The Lyons method is certainly what I personally would do, too, and I
    asked her if she has considered it - she has, but hasn't had the time
    to do it and now needs to move him in the next few days.  She does
    believe that it's a fear-induced reaction; that he probably doesnt 
    realize that he can and will get off and that's he not expected to 
    spend the rest of his life in there....once she teaches him to unload 
    properly he'll get better.  
    
    A previous trainer she consulted the first time this happened had told
    her to 'just leave him that way' and let him learn figure out that it's
    getting him nowhere - apparently this theory is based on the idea that
    he's learned that if he does this, she'll let him out of the trailer.
    I personally don't agree with this, and certainly wouldn't try it -
    it's just too dangerous to horse, trailer, and handler.  
    
    
    
    
    

    I also used the Lyon's method and would recommend it.  It also took me
    much longer than he suggested, but then retraining always takes longer
    than new training.
    
    Sharon

    Let's she...she doesn't want to trank the horse but she wants to move
    him right *NOW* and doesn't have time to train him...sounds like she's
    the real problem but you can't tell her that...so I've got 2
    legitimate suggestions:
    
    	1. find somebody with a big van that's high and roomy ; You know
    	   what I mean? they look like a furniture van equipped for horses
    	   that might be less scary because they're roomy and not
    	   dark(usually)
    
    	2. hire a pro to move the horse
    
    and a wisecrack suggestion: tell her to lead the horse wherever she
    wants to move it to... ;-)

    John,
    
    The hiring a pro or trying a larger, roomy trailer are both decent
    ideas - I'll suggest them to her.  
    
    FYIW - I agree, she's being a tad unreasonable not wanting to tran'q
    him if she needs to move him so soon.  I didn't ask *why* she won't 
    do it just this once and then work on getting him trained before
    hauling him long distance again, she can be very stubborn and I didn't
    think it was worth it. I also didn't ask why she hasn't spent the time
    trailer-training him in the year or so she's had him, I personally 
    consider it a basic that all horses should have; god forbid he need to
    be moved in an emergency! But, everyone has their own opinions on what
    they expect out of their own horses, I guess.
    
    I believe she is planning on doing this tomorrow - I'll let you know
    who, if anyone, survives. :)
                                                 

    Well, the 'monster horse' (as I call him) moved yesterday; without
    tranq's, in his own trailer.  I am told he loaded well, and promptly
    jumped up on the chest bar as expected.  However, instead of panicking
    and taking out of the trailer completely like she had done in the past,
    the owner simply dropped the chest bar to get his feet back on the
    ground and get him settle back into the proper position.  Actually,
    this guy is large enough that he can rear over the bar like this and land
    with at least one foot touching the floor on the other side.  He rode
    for about 45 minutes well, but did his trick again when she had to stop
    in traffic through a construction area in Nashua.  At that point, she 
    had no choice but to leave him that way until she could get to a nearby
    rest area, where she let him down again but did not unload him.  He
    rode the rest of the way to Concord Mass without incident.  Not as bad
    a report as I expected!  Apparently there *was* incident when he was
    unloaded and realized there were other horses around, but that's
    another subject. :-)  The trainer who has him had 3 major comments:
    - she will get him trailering safely, before sending him home
    - he will not ever walk over her again 
    - he will be greenbroke within 2 weeks
    
       

    I've had some severe trailer loading problems with my mare who has
    loaded willingly all her life and I'd like some advice.  I started
    having the problem right after I bought a new Brenderup trailer. I am
    NOT an experienced loader or hauler, this is new to me.  We went to
    our first show with the trailer, she loaded to and from without
    question.  The next show I went to I was careless (didn't know any
    better) and didn't make sure the ramp was level on the ground (the
    right side was touching, but not the left. When she stepped on it, 
    it sunk down, she balked, I didn't understand why, I pursued and 
    put this whole loading idea into a new perspective for her.  In the
    weeks that followed I think I made things much worse, she became 
    downright dangerous, quick and clever.  
    I finally gave up on the "force her on" idea (she's 16.3 and heavy)
    and used the Lyons method.  Now she loads completely and quietly after
    one or two requests, but she shakes and shivers after she's on for only
    a minute.  The WHOLE trailer shakes, she so scared.  I'm trying feeding
    her morning and evening grain in it, I've taken her for short rides, I 
    don't know why she so scared.  I'm afraid the trailer may be too small,
    but the manufacturer assures me that "this is what they ALL use in 
    europe for horses just as big as yours".  Since my horse is a trakehner
    from Europe, I guess I have to believe him that it's not the trailer.
    She's especially frightened after I've taken her for a ride, then it
    might take up to an hour to load her the next time.  I've read
    that most loading problems are driving problems, maybe it's how I
    drive?  My other horse balked the other day when I went to load him,
    I thought, "OH NO, not you too!"
    How do you all drive?  Any hints on turns, stops, whatever?  
    There are some very steep long hills surrounding my house that I can't 
    avoid.  The roads are also rutty and potholed, maybe I should wait til
    spring?  I really want to take her to an indoor to ride regularly.
    I also ordered a "bungy cord type" trailer tie which is supposed to
    help (at least "Tack in the Box" says so), anyone try these?
    
    Help!
    Sharon

    Hi Sharon,
    
    Though I don't have any answers for your problem, I may have a similar
    problem and was wondering if you could share the Lyons method.  I have
    a filly who turned 3 on Jan 1 as all standardbreds do, though her
    actual bday isn't until June.  She's big, almost 16 hands and seems to
    be very claustrophobic in small places.  This is all new, since I
    bought her in NJ 1.5 years ago, and during this time she hit her head
    going into her stall.  It's to the point now where I have to blindfold
    her every night to get her in the stall.  I'm afraid if her ears ever
    touched the ceiling that she'd absolutly freak out.  Though she's 
    trailered well in the past, I'm afraid to put her back in now.  A
    race mare that won't get in the trailer isn't much good to me so
    I really need to get this resolved somehow.  
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Linda

    I don't think it would be logical to explain it myself. You may want
    to buy or borrow his book "Lyons on Horses". I also just ordered 
    "Trailer Loading Success" ($28.50! whew!), hopefully that might also 
    help me. I let you know how it is, it looks like a similar method
    (you stay out, horse walks on by himself)
    
    Sharon

�                      <<< Note 305.43 by DELNI::KEIRAN >>>

�    Though I don't have any answers for your problem, I may have a similar
�    problem and was wondering if you could share the Lyons method.  I have

Linda,

Check most of the current issues of the horse-related magazines (say, 
Practical Horseman) and look for the John Lyons ad.  The current ad has
a listing of his seminar schedule around the country for 1996.  If you
can attend on, I'd recommend it.  The one I saw was pretty educational.
He started with a slightly halter-broke gelding and 4 hours later was
riding him with saddle and bridle.  He doesn't believe in force and 
works on asking the horse to do something and persisting until the horse
does whats asked of him and then John stops and rewards the horse (by
stopping the request).   John has a few books and tapes and videos but,
if possible, I'd recommend the clinic or seminar to be able to watch him
work in person.

    >How do you all drive?  Any hints on turns, stops, whatever?  
    >There are some very steep long hills surrounding my house that I can't 
    >avoid. The roads are also rutty and potholed, maybe I should wait til
    >spring?   
    
    How do I drive? In a word, slowly! Ruts and potholes are a problem.
    Just about every place we've lived in the past 20 years was on a poorly
    maintained dirt road. They were all full of potholes. The only way
    I've found to deal with them is to *creep* along with my foot on
    the brake so the speedometer doesn't even get off zero! Once we make
    the hard top road things are better but getting the mile out to the
    county road can take 20 minutes or more.
    
    Stops: slow down very gradually.
    
    Turns same way: slow down gradually and then make very slow and smooth
    turn.
    
    
    If you've ever had to stand in a crowded bus or subway, you'll
    understand how everything the driver does affects your balance,
    especially, stops, turns and bumps. So, when I'm towing, I try to be 
    more careful than if I were the passenger because horses can't yell 
    "Hey you! Slow down a bit, eh?"
    
    Hope that helps

    
    When I first got my horse he was trailed quite a few times w/no
    problem.  When I got him, he would not trailer at all and I mean at all
    - I did everything and got help from some of the best.
    
    When I got to know him more, I found that he didn't like our trailer,
    it was small and dark inside.  He is a small horse (15.3 arab/narrow)
    but he did not like small places, or being croweded.
    
    I asked a friend of mine who had a very large sterling trailer if we
    could see if Sultan would load - and sure enought w/out even a wink he
    ran in!  I got ride of my small QH size trailer and I bought him a
    brandi new Keifer - since then I have had NO trouble at all.
    
    So, there is a *small* possibility that your horse does not like the
    shape of the brenderup - I've seen them and been in them and I have to
    say, I don't like being in a brenderup.
    
    for the  heck of it, borrow a large horse trailer and see what your
    horses reaction is - it wont hurt and maybe you can rule something out.
    
    Louisa

    
    I second the suggestion of borrowing a larger trailer.  
    
    A lot of horses do not do well in trailers that us humans think are 
    big enough.  And just because someone says a trailer 'should' be 
    big enough, it may not be.
    
    Does your center partition go all the way to the floor?  If so, try
    a half partition so your horse can brace her feet way out. 
    
    I have a 16 3, 1400 lb mare.  And I know she would not fit in a 
    Brenderup unless she had the whole trailer to herself.
    
    Mary Jo 
    

    I'm afraid you may be right, I just hope not.  this is a larger
    Brenderup for larger horses, the normal one is for horses up to 16.2.
    I called the Salesman and he suggested I buy the offset kit. This would 
    allow the middle partion to be 2/3 open during travel, she might like
    that extra room (I hope it works for $250!)
    I do think I've been too fast on the roads though.  This morning I
    didn't have to start work til 11:00 so I brought the other horse to the
    indoor. I crept along Much slower and he was not even warm after the
    ride, he is usually hot and slightly sweaty (of course 0 degree temps
    this morning may have had something to do with that!)
    If I still have the problem after a bit, I'll really have to try a
    larger trailer.  Thanks for the help!
    
    Sharon

    I can't offer any more advice on loading, but will add to those
    that say try another trailer.
    
    Since I started towing my mare, I've met many folks who have to 
    travel their horse with the center partition out of a two horse 
    trailer.  Similarly I have friends who have had to change trailers for
    their new horses.  Some horses don't take too kindly to certain makes,
    much as we find one type of vehicle more comfortable to ride in than 
    another.
    (My own mare doesn't like certain lorries, and appears to prefer
    trailers, so she can face forward).
    
    As to driving technique, an old farmer always told me to imagine that 
    you have a passenger beside you holding a full glass of beer, and that
    you must drive so you don't spill a drop. :-).
    
    Good luck.
    
    Judy

    Well yesterday I got my "trailer Loading Success" book, my "bungy cord"
    trailer tie and a gel pad (nothing to do with trailer, just something
    I've always wanted ;-).  I have a friend making me the 2/3 1/3 trailer
    butt bars (I couldn't afford the $250 through the manufacturer, and I
    can't afford another trailer, I still have big payments on this one),
    but now that I have the "Trailer loading Success book" I'm not even
    sure if I'll need them.
    
    The book takes less than a couple hours to read (all $28.50 of it!),
    but it's WELL worth the money!  It fills in all the holes that the 
    John Lyons book left out (and I've even been to his seminars).  It
    is really the same as the Lyons method, but goes into far greater 
    detail on the little stumbling blocks along the way.  I read and 
    reread Johns book trying to get this detail of "what to do if?" but
    he simplified things I'm sure to fit it into one chapter. 
    
    Today my mare loaded many times, she no longer shakes, she no longer
    tries to back off all the time. She waits til I give her a cue (I tug
    her tail).  This is a great book, I highly recommend it.  Taking
    the horse away from the trailer after each successful load (or partial
    load if that's what your asking) is what I think we were missing. My
    mare really responded to that (the book said she would begin to relate
    the trailer to the rewarding comfort of leaving it) it really works.
    
    I did my other horse (the "good" loader) as well his ground work took
    much longer than the mares. I think with practice it will really help
    him get confidence and overcome his extreme fears. (he loads through
    fear, but panics at anything new because he thinks he'll be punished).
    
    Great book, get it if you have loading problems!
    Sharon