Conference noted::equitation

    A suggestion:  Have the horse's mouth checked to see if
    his teeth need floating, or if he has 'wolf teeth' that
    need to be pulled - this could be part of the problem.
    If not, try the martingale.  It is a leather strap that
    connects from the girth through the front legs to the noseband.
    When the horse throws his head up, he can only go so far
    and ends up punishing himself. 

    
    Clarification  (161.1) describes a "standing martingale" which
    as correctly described gives the horse a "leash". He can only 
    flip his head so far before the martingale restricts him.
    
    A standing martingale does not attach to the noseband. The leather
    attaches to the girth between the front legs just as the standing
    variety does.  The running martingale splits to two pieces at
    the animals chest.  Each split has a ring on the end that you string
    the reins through.  When the horse flips his head the bit will be
    excerting downward pressure.  It's really a pulley type situation.
    
    My two cents on using martingales... it may help the problem but
    treating the source of the difficulty rather than the symptom is
    a better way to go.  If at all possible, don't get in the habit
    of using one.  Use it as a training aid only.
    
    Dani
    

    Re: 261.2, I think (???) that you meant to say in the first sentence of
    the second paragraph that "A running martingale does not attach
    to the noseband", rather than "A standing martingale does not attach
    to the noseband". :^)
    
    I agree with both replies that it is better to cure the cause rather
    then just the symptoms (even though causes can be very hard to find!)
    
    Good luck!
     

>    I agree with both replies that it is better to cure the cause rather
>    then just the symptoms (even though causes can be very hard to find!)

Thank you for the quick replies. A little clarification is in order...

This is just one of several different approaches. The most obvious thing
is to teach ME to be a little less heavy handed. However, my teacher has
decided that even I am not that thick, and that perhaps the horse has
a problem too. I had the vet check his mouth last week, since I had him 
in for some other work. There is nothing obviously wrong, and he did some
pretty serious poking around. I never heard of wolf teeth, but I didn't
think to ask.

She is advocating that I use the martingale as a training aid, not as
a permanant addition (she has the same view about carrying a crop). We
don't know much about the horse's previous training. Her theory is that the
horse was trained to obey Western style commands, and is still somewhat
confused by my awkward attempts to retrain it. 

This is what I get for buying another "young" horse. But, my other App
is such a doll, I just couldn't resist!! (I guess that's a common thing
for horse people to say)

thanks,

/ed

    You might try this as an experiment to determine the problem:
    Ride the horse with a halter (in an enclosed area) and attach
    reins or 2 lead lines to the sides of the halter.  See if the
    horse still throws his head up when you pull on the halter to slow
    him (now there is no bit in his mouth).  If not, it might indicate
    that the type of bit doesn't fit him properly or that it is too
    severe for what he needs.  I only suggested the martingale as a
    device to help you from getting injured while you are riding and
    learning to keep your hands light.  It would be better if you had
    an experienced trainer or instructor ride your horse and try to
    eliminate this problem since it doesn't sound like you are at a
    point to try to train the horse while you are still improving your
    riding skills.
    Sometimes the horse can throw his head up too quick - enough to
    give you a smack in the face, so at least the martingale will help.
    You are probably better off using the standing martingale so that
    it won't interfere with your reins and the horse's mouth.

    Doesn't anyone out there use a bitting(sp) rig?? It's one of the
    first pieces of equipment that my wife & I got. It can be used for
    many different types of training, etc. . But no matter what system
    use, just be sure that it does what your wanting to accomplish.
    I also agree about checking the mouth & having the right bit. Hope
    you don't have to much trouble getting your horse in control.
    
                                                 Steve
    
    
    
    
    

    I agree with most other responses of trying to find the cause of
    the problem, but you may end up with the symptom even after you
    find the cause.  Given the experience of the rider, I'd suggest
    that you get professional help, but in case that is not available
    here are a few things I'd try.
    
    I'm a firm believer in ground work, and therefore would suggest
    that you or an experienced friend work in a bitting harness.  It
    allows you to drive the horse into the bit and to see what is happening
    without worrying about what your balance or seat is doing.  It also
    gives you the opportunity to use a martingale more constructively.
    
    If you don't have access to a bitting harness, use a running martingale
    with two sets of reins.  Use one set straight to the snaffle as
    you would normally.  This is the set that you will normally use
    to communicate to the horses mouth.  The second set passes through
    the rings of the martingale to the snaffle (under the first set).
    You will use this set of reins as a modified tie down but unlike
    a tiedown, you will have the flexibility of control.  If you have
    never ridden with two sets of reins, this will be very awkward at
    first.  The principal is to ride on the top rein until your horse
    throws its head, when you use the bottom set to regulate the extent
    of travel.  The difference of just one rein with a martingale is
    that you will disrupt the normal position of the snaffle rein and
    the horse will expect you to then use the martingale.
    
    As a last resort, you could use just one rein with the martingale.
    It may solve your immediate problem but might create another if
    you are not careful.  You need to be sure that you are not always
    pulling on the horses face or you will create a dependancy that
    is very difficult to correct.
    
    In any case don't forget that the position and attitude of your
    horses head is controlled by the motor, and all horses are rear
    engined vehicles.  Be sure to have the motor engaged before you
    work on the steering.
    
    Bob
    

Thank you all for you comments, at least I can understand what may 
instructor is talking about! 

We are going to try a standing martingale. (Primarily because
I am not experienced enough to go with the running martingale.)
My instructor rode him briefly last week and decided that I am 
not instigating the problem, although I am reinforcing it by 
overreacting. The horse is extremely tense and ill at ease under the 
saddle. After it has been cantering, it wants to prance around at 
the walk and just run all the time.

She now has me lunging with loose sidereins for about 1/2 hour before 
we work. This seems to be very helpful because the horse does not 
even start acting up afterwards.

On the weekend, she has us going for very long trots (2-3 hours).
Her idea is to get the horse more confident under my direction. She 
says the long trots will help the horse to relax while the change 
in scenery will keep it from getting bored. This too seems to be
going well. Ring work has gone fine with just these simple changes.

We are also going to experiment with a couple of different bits.
I'm currently using a full-cheek snaffle. We're going to try
something a little harsher next, and if that is not effective
we'll try something a little easier.

Thank you all very much! Any further comments are greatly appreciated.

/ed

    Why not go to something a little easier first? Maybe something that
    will make your horse carry the bit better? I have always gone the
    route of trying something easier first because of the chance that
    the horse is maybe just not able to handle that type of bit. IN
    actuality I don't mean something that is just easier but rather
    a bit that will try to make the horse use his mouth to carry the
    bit. Also, some horses do not react well to a jointed bit because
    when pressure is applied, the roof of their mouth takes a whack.
    Maybe try a straight bar snaffle (or rubber straight bar).
    
    Good luck,
    
    Linda
    

    If you still want to use a jointed bit but want to get away from
    the whack in the mouth problem, try a Dr. Bristol.  We've had pretty
    good success with it especially for young horses who won't tolerate
    some of the problems with a broken snaffle.
    
    In any case I concur that the right bit is important and you need
    to experiment some what that right bit is for your horse.
    
    Bob
    

Another progress report:

We've been using the standing martingale for about 2 1/2 weeks. We've
concentrated on walking and trotting for extended periods. We're
using a variety of tactics (other than pulling back on the reins) 
to keep the horse going slowly: small circles, work over cavellettis,
and pacing with another horse. 

Progress has been bumpy, but we are definately getting somewhere. The 
horse is beginning to relax. He has stopped throwing his head around 
as much.  The long trots seem to pay off primarily because
they tire him out. We seem to get more accomplished in the last
20 minutes than we do in the first hour! He also looks better on
the lunge.

We are going to leave the martingale off occassionally so that he and I
don't always rely on it. We have not yet experimented with the bit.
We'll do so as soon as my order arrives. We may even try a hackamore.
Thanks for the comments.

/ed