Conference noted::equitation

    When I had my horse vetted for eventing, we X-Rayed all parts
    of the leg (including hoofs).  Also, I was not planning on going
    past Training, but my vet told me that he would not vet-out my
    horse for prelim level without scoping him.  (Don't know if you
    thought of that)  My vet and coach advised me that to save a few
    dollars on the vet check could result in spending a lot more in
    the future.  I did not do the scope as I didn't plan on going
    Prelim and didn't.  We've since switched to the hunter circuit
    as my horse is 18 and eventing became too much, but he still loves
    to actively show, so we do.  The cost of the X-rays would not help
    as it was over 6 years ago -- my advice is that you should do all
    X-rays; I've seen many a horse retire after only a year or so of
    eventing due to problems that could have been detected early on.
    
    Dawn

    Based on my current experience with our horse (see note 178) I'd
    say get those feet Xrayed! Need two different views one for navicular
    and the other for founder. Last night we had our horse's feet Xrayed.
    Guess what! He has foundered in the past. It's been at least six
    years since he did not have sinc we owned him. In the long run it's
    cheaper to get those Xrays done up front rather than later.
    
    

    
    
    Hi Julie, looks like you've gotten some good responses on the x-ray
    situation..  you asked about insurance and I have a little info
    to offer.  I have my morgan mares insured through Ark Agency in
    Minnesotta.  They were very professional to do business w/and offered
    competetive rates...  their policies are based on several factors,
    like what kind of horse you have, sex, age, intention for use, ie;
    a broodmare vs showhorse vs fun to have at home horse...  they use
    a couple of different bigger insurance companies (like Lloyds of
    several larger companies (like Lloyds of London) and specialize
    
    a couple of large (like Lloyds of London) companies and specialize
    in animal insurance.  They were markedly less expensive than Rhulen
    for exactly the same coverage.  You need to read the different typs
    of policies carefully and understand the requirements for coverage
    in case of illness or accident.  The address for Ark Agency is Box
    223, Paynesville, Minnesotta  56362.  Hope this helps..
    
    Holly Butterman

    EQUINE INSURANCE---Ive used the following agency and have been very
    satisfied with them.Maybe cause I haven't had a claim yet.
    
    THE INSURERS
    P.O.BOX 185
    S.SIOUX CITY,NEB 68776
    TEL # 1-800-228-8664
    
    Ask for CONNIE/or her dad ROGER ----They are really helpful and
    they are not a one insurance agency so they can shop for the best
    company for your needs and ultimately for the best price.I called
    this morning before writing this and Connie said right now the average
    rate is 4% for mares,stallions to about 9% for geldings(because
    people aren't as likely to save a gelding--natl.avg)about 5% for
    my 8 month old filly....I had forgotten to think of insurance for
    her....there going to send me an application for her...
     Currently the only one i've got insurance on is my stallion and
    its not too expensive (versus total loss).Also they do require a
    signed vet check so you might include that with your next farm call
    lets say to avoid a vet call just for that ----I hope this helps
    and HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL
    
    Gary Reynolds (DTN 221-5425)

    I'd like to thank everyone who responded so far.  The replies have
    been helpful.  I found out that the current owner had the following
    x-rays done when she got the horse as a 4 yr old: front feet, knees,
    hocks and I think cannon bones.  I'm hoping she still has those,
    since the vet can look at them and make a better decision which
    ones to retake.  I'm more concerned with ankles and knees, but I
    guess it is better to take more than necessary.  I did think about
    having the horse scoped, since I was riding a horse this year who
    had an operation on his windpipe, and could event, but probably
    not do prelim. too heavily.  This horse did not make any noticeable
    sounds at the trot or canter (indicative of broken wind, etc.) so
    I'll see what the vet thinks.
    
    I welcome any more comments on the x-ray question or the insurance
    question.  Is it less expensive to go through an insurance company
    that does not specialize in just horses?  Would a signed pre-purchase
    exam be enough for the insurance company?
    
    Thanks again,
    Julie

    We insured our Morgans with Lawrence & Motta for a few years under
    a regular horse policy (probably like Rhulen).  We had to pay a
    certain percentage (based on breed) of the purchase price.  They
    would only insure up to the purchase price unless you could prove
    that the horse was worth more.  You also had to get a yearly vet
    exam.
    
    Now we insure our horses under a farm policy with our local independent
    insurance agents.  You can insure the horse for whatever amount
    you want, and it's a lot cheaper than the horse policy.  You don't
    need a yearly vet exam.  Of course, the coverage isn't quite as
    extensive as with the horse policy.  So you can save money if you
    don't want total coverage.  Our policy basically covers accidental
    death, whereas the horse policy included things like being destroyed
    because of EIA or if the horse just lost capabilities to perform
    (like leg injury on race horse or jumper that made it impossible
    to continue, but they did not have to be put down because of the
    injury).
    
    You might want to talk to several places (including local agents)
    and compare prices and coverage.
    
    						Jan
    

    Hello Julie!  Glad to hear that you're getting another one! My horses
    have always been insured through Rhulen but, up until now, they
    have all been mares so I only put mortality insurance on them. 
    I will be insuring my gelding this year and putting surgery on him.
    Rhulen required a vet exam every year to renew the policy.  The
    fee for mortality only was about $40.00 per $1000 of insured amount
    (2 years ago).  I had to submit records, letters, etc. to prove
    the horses were worth the coverage that I had on them so if the
    horse has a past show/event/whatever record, get copies so you can
    submit them with your insurance application.  I imagine this is
    probably the case with almost every insurance company.
    
    About X-rays, I would definitely suggest the scoping (there are
    many more potential bleeders out there than people realize) especially
    since the horse will be eventing.  If the horse has been used for
    any type of jumping over the last 2 years (since the last set of
    X-rays) than ypu might want to have everything re-done so you'll
    be sure of starting out clean.  The X-rays as a 4-year old are fine
    but the horse probably wasn't being used as hard as a 3 and 4 year
    old as he would have been as a 5 and 6 year old.
    
    Good luck and maybe I'll see you next season!
    
    Linda

Insurance is by definition an economic proposition.  You should 
therefore treat it as such.  If you are a single horse owner, 
there is no question that insurance is attractive.  If, on the 
other hand, you have a herd, it may be better to self insure.  
The closer you get to a large number of healthy animals the more 
attractive it will be.  After all that is what keeps insurance 
executives in Mercedes'.  Here is an admittedly oversimplified 
example:

You own one horse whose worth is $10,000.00 and insure it at a 
rate of 5% for full mortality (this does not normally include 
loss of use).

                    WORTH = $10,000.00
                    RATE  = $50.00 PER $1,000.00
                    PREM  = $500.00 PER YEAR
 SELF INSURED BREAK EVEN  = $10,000.00 / $500.00 YR = 20 YEARS


This means that you will break even if your horse lives for 20 
years.  That situation is clearly high risk.

Assume a herd of 10 horses each with a worth of $10,000.00.  The 
business situation becomes much more attractive.

                    WORTH = $100,000.00
                    RATE  = $50.00 PER $1,000.00
                    PREM  = $5000.00 PER YEAR
 SELF INSURED BREAK EVEN  = $10,000.00 / $5,000.00 YR = 2 YEARS

This now means that you will break even if you lose a horse every 
two years.  I'm willing to take this gamble.  Every situation is 
not as simple as this since horses are seldom ever valued at 
exactly the same rate.  You would take a chance therefore that 
your most expensive horse would die and cost you lots of money up 
front.  On the other hand you could invest the $5000 every year 
and make a few bucks (thats what the insurance company does with 
your money).

Whatever you decide, be sure to read the fine print in the policy 
because like snowflakes, no two insurance companies are alike.  
There are lots of special instructions like you have to notify 
them within an hour of the vets prognosis or you lose the payoff. 
Some require second opinions etc.

By the way, I do insure some horses through Agririsk who I think 
are very professional and easy to deal with.  I have also insured 
through Rhulen but I wouldn't deal with them again because of the 
difficulty I've had (I've never tried to collect from them) in 
getting policies written.

Regards,                                        

Bob

Being from the 'other side of the water' I'm not really in a position
to advise you on your more immediate questions surrounding X-rays
and Insurance.  However I thought you might be interested in some 
advice passed to me.

As you know, I have fairly recently bought a pony which I had examined
prior to purchase.  My own vet did say to me that it pays to be wary
when submitting a pre-purchase certificate to an insurance company.
This document will often have more information on it than required 
by the company and some of it might be mis-construed.  What he suggested 
I do was to approach the insurance company first, find out their 
pre-requisites and if possible obtain their certificate.  He could then 
carry out both examinations for the price of one.  
This is always supposing that the insurance company are happy with your
chosen vet carrying out an examination on their behalf.

Good luck, Keep us posted (if you can spare the time).

Best wishes for a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
    
Judy
    

    It so turned out that I won't be getting this particular horse for
    a few reasons:  I wasn't able to find anywhere to board him in this
    area, I couldn't find someone to lease my horse (not until March),
    and the horse was lame in the left hind leg when the vet did his
    pre-purchase exam - so, I now have more time to investigate insurance
    companies, local boarding places, and other horses.
    
    Do insurance companies require you to insure the horse you bought
    before trailering him  to a new stable?  

    
    
    Guess the good news is that you found out what you needed to
    know about the possible new horse...  and the time you have
    to look for another will be helpful.
    
    My experience w/insurance companies has been that you determine
    when (month/day/time) you want the insurance to begin... if that
    is true w/most companies then it's up to you.  If it were me, I
    would insure as soon as I passed money/papers to cover my invest-
    would cover as soon as I passed money/papers to take care of my
    investment.......

    Im with Holly on when to insure.  If you go through the trouble
    of insuring an animal be sure that it is from the instant of ownership.
    My experience is that Murphy's law prevails and if you need insurance
    it will be one day late.  Most companies will cover a horse from
    the time of transaction if you work the details up front.  Good
    luck on your search and don't forget the lesson you should have
    learned from this incident (i.e. always get a pre-purchase vet check).
    As a dealer I can say that it protects both parties.
    
    Bob
    

    Julie - to bad about the horse being lame!  Oh well, there will
    be more!  I think that the insurance can be started on a certain
    day (as in the seocnd the ownership papers are passed) provided
    that the insurance company has the necessary papers (proof of value,
    etc.)  You could mention in the letter that you were going to be
    transferring ownership on xxx date and you would like the coverage
    to begin then.
    
    Best of luck both in finding a new horse and in getting a lease
    on your horse.
    
    Linda
    

    Bob - just to clarify things, I didn't buy the horse, because
    as a result of the pre-purchase exam, the vet noticed that the
    horse was off in the left hind, and recommended x-rays if I did
    want to buy him.  Now that I have time to look around for horses,
    I can get in touch with different insurance companies and see what
    they require for coverage to begin as soon as papers are passed.
    I suppose it might take longer to get the horse home if the insurance
    needs to see the results of the prepurchase exam before they can
    start the coverage, but then again, the delay would be justified.

    AS FAR AS THE INSURANCE GOES...WE INSURE THROUGH AGRI-RISK OUT OF
    NEW YORK.  HAVE HAD NO PROBLEMS WITH THEM.  THEIR RATES ARE GOOD.
    3.1/$1000 IF YOU FOLLOW THEIR VET ROUTINE WHICH WE FOUND WE DO 
    ANYWAYS.  BY THE WAY THIS IS ON ON AN ARABIAN...ONE OF THE 
    HIGHER RISK GBELIEVE.
    BELIEVE...
    
    SOMETHING IS HAPPENING WITH THE LINES...EVERYTHING IS COMING
    UP GIBBERISH.  IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN MORE INFORMATION ON THIS
    
    PARTICULAR COMPANY PLEASE LET ME ME KNOW.
    
    KTHIE KATHIE
    F10