Conference noted::equitation

    
    		oh boy, you came up with a great one.....
    
    but the way I see it is plain and simple!  no drugs.. period.
    if horse your horse is sick or hurt, he should stay at home.
    I feel if any drugs are used people try and push it no matter what.
    what happens when you see a nice filly on the rail, that you saw
    in the sale program. you decide to buy her the following day at
    the sale.  you get her home... and  taaaa ddaaaaa....the mares
    lame as hell?? now what? sell her.... ????? not to me you won't
    ;^)
    		wendy
    				

	The use of Bute in horses during competition has been a hot topic
in New Hampshire the last couple of years. I've discussed this subject at
hearings before the State Legislator, the New Hampshire Horse Council, 
and the New England Draft Horse Association. After listening to all the
arguments, it appears to me to break out with the race horse crowd strongly
favoring the legal user of Bute, the show horse people opposed to declaring
the use of Bute illegal, and the horse pullers favoring a total ban on the
use of Bute in competition.

	Personally, I agree with Wendy. No drugs means no drugs. I don't
believe a sound horse needs Bute and only sound horses should be in
competition. 

    I have to agree totally about _not_ allowing Bute.  I'll relay a
    story that may help to clarify why position on Bute in the show
    ring.
    
    I judged a show where a spiffy kid was showing a spiffy quarter
    horse.  The horse was lame, so I could only use her in the equitation
    and showmanship classes.  Halfway through the day, the kid's father
    approached me and wanted to know why I had used the kid so
    inconsistantly.  I explained that the horse was lame and that it
    couldn't be used against her in eq and showmanship, but that there
    were too many other good horses that were going sound for me to
    use her in pleasure, etc.
    
    The guy went wild.  He said that it wasn't fair for me to judge
    that way.  That the horse had arthritis, that he'd just administered
    Bute, and that if I'd be patient he'd prove her sound.  It is at
    that point I had to walk away.  Bute does not make an unsound horse
    sound.  Period.  It only gives the horse comfort.  It is my opinion
    that allowing people to show a drugged horse (any drug) borders
    on abuse.  Showing is stressful enough on an animal mentally, why
    should be allow further stress on them physically.
    
    My $.02.
    
    Ann

    
    		hi ann, I have been interested in judging since my 4h
    days, used to be on the judging team.  How as an adult can i become
    a judge???   
    
    			second, if you knew that the horse was lame,
    why?? didnt you just excuse the horse from the ring???  If my
    horses pick up a stone before a class, and they are off , i'll excuse
    myself before the judge gives me the gate.
    
    		wendy
    

    It's all either black or white right? Last year my daughter and
    I travelled to Oklahoma City from Colorado Springs so she and our
    Morgan could participate in their first Grand National. The trip
    was expensive. Anyway, once there for the very first time the horse
    got girth galls. What to do? I went to the show vet who told us
    that besides putting on a fleece covering, to give him some bute
    which he gave to us. We did that, the horse was comfortable, and
    we were able to finish the show. Was it wrong? Under the circumstances
    I think not. Any thoughts on this?
     

    Re .4
    
    Wendy, there's a lot to tell about becoming a judge (carded).  It's
    rather extensive, but if you'd like to contact me off line I'll
    be happy to talk/write to you about it.  CTOAVX::IZZO or DTN:
    255-5377.
    
    The reason I didn't give the kid the gate was because the rules
    governing the show said that _in equitation and in showmanship_
    the horse had to be "reasonably sound".  Technically, she was
    "reasonably sound".  She just didn't move correctly and seemed 
    a bit ouchy in the hips.
    
    Re .5
    
    I think it almost has to be a black or white issue for a couple
    of reasons.  I do not mean to say that what you did was wrong (under
    the current rulings), but things happen and if the rules said you
    couldn't have shown, I'm sure you wouldn't have.  Your daughter
    would have had a broken heart and you would have had a broken bank
    account, and you would have gone home.
    
    I have a friend who's Appy filly was invited to the world's.  They
    trucked the filly from Connecticut to Oklahoma City with no trouble,
    but once there, she developed what the vet told her a minor cold.
    They didn't show her.  They took their lumps and came home.  (BTW,
    the filly did not have a cold, she had pluresy (sp?) and died a
    couple of days later at Tufts.)  
    
    I know a girl who has a horse with navicular.  The horse lived on
    Bute every day of his life.  Her students pin well on him (when
    he goes good) but should he be out there at all?  The horse was
    ultimately nerved...he's still shown all the time, even over fences.
    
    I'm not saying it very well, but my point is that it's not only
    the slimey people trying to cheat a judge that this ruling affects.
    Because Bute makes a horse more comfortable, a small problem can
    develop into a more complicated problem without anyone noticing
    it in time.  This is one of those rulings that will make a lot of
    exhibitors mad (similar to the AHSA hard hat ruling) but is put
    in place for physical protection.      
    
    Ann

    		
    		SLIMEY PEOPLE????? THANKS FOR SAYING THAT FOR ME!
    I just didnt know how to say it, but you said nicely.
    		wendy
    

    I would like to thank everyone who has responded to this topic so
    quickly (and those who will respond!)  The reason that this came
    up is because of a local though large county 4-H Fair in which I
    saw a few kids with older, athritic horses who were giving them
    Bute because of the athritis.  I understand that the kids want to
    show at just this one show, etc but my feelings are (and what I
    think 4-H kids should learn as a practice) that no drugs should
    be allowed also, including Bute for the same reasons as mentioned
    before, masks other problems etc.  I am on a show committee for local
    4-H shows and requested that the growing drug problem at least be
    addressed by putting something in the premium/entry list that states
    that no drugs be allowed.  I met with opposition from fellow committee
    members who felt that "Bute is like aspirin and you (meaning me)
    take aspirin, don't you?"  I know that Bute is nonthing more than
    an antiinflammatory however if there is a reason to need it at all,
    than at least at the 4-H level, my feelings are that there is also
    a reason for the horse to stay home.
    
    Again, thanks and please keep the replies coming on this topic!!!!
    
    Linda
    

    		
    		you stating it that way, makes me really feel for some
    of those kids. I know whats its let to have an older horse. my father
    bought me a horse for my 11th xmas. he knew nothing about horses,
    the horse was sold as a six year old, turns out, thank God she was
    sound, just some minor wind puffs, she was a retired 23yr old
    GRA barrel horse.  we found this out 2 years after we moved her
    out of the show barn.  for all you people in denver.... that
    was Don Wyatt, remember him????  anyway she taught me alot, and
    i had her  til she was 25, then i sold her. anyway...
    enough rambiling.  as for bute.. well... you said 4h kids?? right??
    well... this might be going over board a bit *BUT* are you teaching
    kids at an early age that drugs are ok for horses, and kids????
    think about it...  and when they get older, winning means everything,
    even put a sick or ouchy horse to work. oh well. I better get outa
    here before I get beat up.... ;^)
    

	re: .5

	As far as I'm concerned the issue is black and white. I do not believe
your use of Bute was wrong. Under the same circumstances I may have done
the same thing. The problem is that one cannot limit the use of Bute or
any other drug. It's allowed or it isn't allowed. 

	I know, and I'm sure Ann knows, horses that have been injured pulling
while on Bute. The argument used sounds much like yours. "I've sent alot
of money on this horse, I've sent time and money getting him ready and I've
trucked him a long way." How about the owner who insists that his horse
is only a little sore up front because he was trimmed too close. At least
one horseman has a horse "a little sore up front" the last two years and
he's still using Bute and he will until the horse is a cripple or he's stopped.

	I'm not opposed to the general use of Bute. I'm against the use
of Bute or any other drug in horses during competition. 

	This is somewhat unrelated but this past summer at a large fair
I saw a lady blowing Coke into her horse just before going into the show 
ring. There were several competitors watching and no one objected or filed
a complaint.

    All I am saying is that this was an issue that came up at a show
    committee meeting of which I was attending.  The show in question
    is a 4-H show.  My own feelings are that if a kid has to give a
    horse Bute to be able to show them then maybe the horse is better
    off being left at home.  I, fortunately, have never had a need to
    use Bute and would not compete any horse of mine if they were on
    Bute, however I do understand that it is done for whatever reason.
    
    I have mixed feelings about allowing Bute at a 4-H show.  On the
    one hand, I would love to see every kid who can only afford to ride
    a 23 year old, sweet, arthritic gelding be able to show it and enjoy
    the horse in every possible way.  On the other hand I feel that
    if there is a need to give the horse Bute, then that is probably
    a good reason for the horse to stay home.  I personnally left the
    decision up to the other members of the committee but I felt that
    it might be an interesting topic for EQUITATION so I mentioned it
    here.  The final outcome (decided by the other members on the
    committee, I abstained) was to mention in the premium list that
    all drugs (including Bute) were disallowed.
    
    Linda
    

    In reference to -.9, that was exactly my point - I feel that we
    should be teaching the kids that drugs are NOT okay for horses in
    competition (as T. Frost mentioned) however other show committee
    members felt that Bute was not really a drug but instead wsa just
    like aspirin and was therefore alright to use.  Don't worry about
    getting beat up!  I am just trying to get others feelings about
    a topic which has been thrown around by AHSA, AQHA, ApHC, etc for
    a few years now and has just recently reached the 4-H level.
    
    Thanks for the comments!  Please keep them coming!
    
    Linda
    

    
    regarding 158.10:  you saw a lady blowing Coke into her horse before
    going into the show ring????
    
    
    THAT'S GROSS!!	
    
    The poor horse...people like that should be shot!
    
    

    
    		well.... we might be just a bad as the people who are
    doing things (coke) to their horses.  I would have reported it the
    police(prosession) and humane society.  If we stand by and watch
    we are just as guilty.
    
    			wendy WHO_SOME_PEOPLE_HATE_IS_ALSO_VERY_RESPECTED_
    		WITH_THE_MAJORITY_OF_THE_SHOW_CIRCUIT
    

    I would like to sidestep (for a note or two) the issue of whether
    bute should be a permitted drug at horseshows and events. Instead
    I would like to understand a little more about the drug itself.
    From previous notes I get the impression that some horse people
    think of bute as "horse aspirin". The pracctice of allowing its
    use by AHSA may have encouraged that attitude. My question: "Is
    bute really the equivalent of horse aspirin? If it is no wonder
    that there is so much controversy! Some people will take aspirin
    at the first symptoms of discomfort, others have to in severe pain
    before they'll take anything! What is bute?
    

    Sometimes when you read a topic like this one you just know there's
    going to be a controversy.  If anyone is interested, this month's
    Equus magazine did a feature article on equine drug use in general.
    It has changed some of my ideas about drug use (abuse) but not all.
    Its easy to see the abuse spectrum because it usually ends up with
    a horse or rider getting hurt or its just plain illegal (like blowing
    coke on a horses nose).  It's also pretty easy to justify some drug
    use on the benificial side (like wormers or the theraputic use of
    a drug like banamine).  Its the gray area in the middle that causes
    the controversy.  I personally think that we have made this drugged
    society and we now own the obligation to correct it.  I'm therefore
    opposed to drug use in the show ring for any reason.  The first
    place to start is with our future (all those little persons that
    we put all the pressure on) riders.  We should enforce the idea
    that drugs shouldn't be a way of life even if it costs us financially.
    
    my $.02
    
    Bob
    
    
    BTW how would you propose to enforce drug use rules?  Drug testing
    can get pretty expensive for a 4H show.
    
    

    Neither Bute nor Aspirin, for that matter, cure the underlying condition
    that causes a horse (or a person) pain. They merely mask the symptoms.
    In most instances, showing involves a higher level of stress on
    a horse than its normal routine does. Therefore showing an unsound horse
    on Bute is doing the horse no good whatsoever and can aggravate
    whatever injury causes the unsoundness. I don't have any reservations
    about absolutely prohibiting the use of Bute along with all the
    other drugs in any kind of show. Bute has its place in the treatment
    of injuries but not in the showring.
    
    On the few occassions my horse has shown some lameness, I stopped
    riding him completely until he recovered. In one instance that meant
    dropping out of one of the only novice event in the area on the
    suspicion of a problem.
    
    Another related issue is keeping the older arthritic horse going
    on a continuous diet of Bute, whether it's competing or not. I do have
    reservations about doing this no matter what the emotional attachment
    to the horse. I have yet to face this dilema myself.

    As mentioned before, this month's Equus is a worthwhile buy since
    it covers many of the popular drugs being used on horses today.
    It describes Bute (phenolbutozolidin sp?) as having its roots in
    the same chemicals that are contained in "good ole asprin".  Note
    that it has some of the same side effects like burning a hole through
    the lining of the stomach.  It's only one of many drugs used to
    make a horse feel better.  A drug gaining in popularity on the show
    circuit is Banamine (tm), especially for horses with a propensity
    for sore backs.
    
    Bob
    

    What a question.  Needless to say the discusions that have gone
    on in this notes file, happen here on this side of the water too.
    
    If I may put in my two penneth -
    
    Bute, like many drugs is used to ease pain and discomfort making
    life more comfortable during the treatment and the recuperation
    process.  It is a symptom inhibitor and as such should surely be
    used with caution.  As pointed out in a previous reply a multitude
    of other problems can be masked by using such drugs.
    
    The controversy arises from the 'true reason' for employing the
    drug.  I think most people would have sympathy with using available
    drugs to ease suffering and premote recovery.  If,however, such drugs are
    used as an attempt to 'cover up' or defraud then few would condone
    such action.
    
    Surely the problem is why are the drugs being used, and to what
    end.  Is it really to make life more bearable for the horse until
    recovery is complete, or is it to allow us to continue doing the 
    things we enjoy ?
    
    As to the question of drugs being used on competition horses ?
    Apart from the moral issues, I find it difficult to accept an
    animal that is under any treatment as being a suitable candidate
    for being placed in the top positions over 'sound' animals.
                                                               
    As you may have gathered, I have not been placed in the position
    of having to make such decisions.  Should that time come, I will
    obviously have to make up my own mind - as easy or difficult as that
    may be ?                                    
    
    Thanks for listening.  Keep the good words rolling as your help,
    advise and opinions are greatly appreciated.
    
    
    Judy
    
    
    
    

    To reinforce Bob's reply about the Equus article, if anyone is
    interested in this topic, I strongly suggest you get that issue
    and read the articles word for word.  The drug topic was a special
    feature for that issue and they put a lot of research into it. 
    They talk about drug use in the various industries from TB racing
    to the QH congress to Eventing and showing.  
    
    I know that the AHSA has been adding a $4.00 charge to cover drug
    testing at some of the Dressage shows and Events I went to this year.
    In one of the Equus articles, it mentioned that the AQHA has started to
    do its own testing at recognized shows, and they arrive unannounced at
    various shows during the year.  They noted that some entries scratch
    from classes when they hear that the drug testers are at the show,
    but maybe this will help control the problem, because when you've
    paid a lot of money to enter classes, then have to scratch because
    you've drugged your horse, it's going to cost a lot in the long
    run, so you might as well not bring the horse unless he's sound.
    
    As far as 4-H is concerned, I agree that is important to teach the
    kids the proper treatment of a lame or sore horse, and not to give
    them the idea that there is a pill for every illness.  Teach them
    how to apply heat during the first few hours of an injury then to
    hose the leg with cold water over the next few days to reduct the
    swelling.  Teach them the proper bandaging methods, furacin sweats,
    how to use protective boots etc, and let them know that the vet
    is responsible for prescribing medication when necessary.  Stress
    the fact that if they let the horse recover on his own, that he
    is less likely to reinjure himself than if he was worked while on
    bute, therefore masking the fact that he is in pain.  

     If I may add my 2 cents also...

     I just wish people could stop treating their horses like they were 
machines.  Owning a horse is much more complex than a motorcycle or car.  We 
have to take on the responsibility of caring for their every need.  In return
they give us their all...  How can people be so insensitive to this living,
breathing, simple minded creature?  How can earning points or ribbons be more
important than their comfort and happiness?  When a horse breaks down we owe 
them the decency of caring for them until they are well.  When you purchase a 
horse you take the risk of losing your investment if something should happen.
(Unless, of course, you buy insurance).  

     And another point - I was a 4H'er as a kid - and I really enjoyed having 
horses.  I spent alot of time learning about nutrition, care, health, etc.  
Hopefully, what I gained was knowledge to become a good horseman, becoming a 
good rider is another category in itself - this is where the shows come in.

     I've only had the experience of using Bute once.  This was when my mare 
turned up lame 2 days after purchasing her.  I can't be sure she had been given 
Bute the day I bought her - anything could have happened - she could have hurt 
herself in the trailer, etc.  So I called the vet in.  He took x-rays and 
assured me that she had only a minor injury.  He prescribed a few weeks of 
rest, walking her when she seemed better and Bute to ease the pain (which I 
did give her).  In two weeks she was fine.

     -Janice

RE: .15
>                                               ...My question: "Is
>    bute really the equivalent of horse aspirin? If it is no wonder
>    that there is so much controversy! Some people will take aspirin
>    at the first symptoms of discomfort, others have to in severe pain
>    before they'll take anything! What is bute?
    
Bute = Phenylbutazone = 4-Butyl-1,2-diphenyl-3,5-pryazolidinedione
One common brand name is Butazolidin from Geigy.

According to my 1980 Physician's Desk Reference, phenylbutazone is 
"...a nonsalicylate, nonsteroidal, anti-imflammatory drug.  It has 
anti-inflammatory, antipyretic, analgesic and mild uricosuric properties 
that produce symptomatic relief but do not alter the disease process."

It is similar to ibuprofen = (�)-2-(p-isobutylphenel) propionic acid, which 
is sold under the brand names of Motrin (prescription only, Upjohn), Advil 
and Nuprin (I apologize, but I don't have info at hand on who owns the last 
two tradenames).  According to the PDR, ibuprofen is described as a 
"...non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agent that possesses analgesic and
anti-pyretic activities." 


I'm sure everyone recognizes Nuprin and Advil as analgesics currently being 
heavily marketed as replacements for acetominophin or aspirin.  Thier 
presence on the market and widespread acceptance (to mention nothing of the 
clinical studies drug companies do) indicate that an anti-inflammatory 
agent can act as an effective general analgesic in low doseages.

Ibuprofen is a replacement for aspirin.  Phenylbutazone is an 
anti-inflammatory agent like ibuprofen, one which is more widely prescribed 
for horses.  It is essentially "aspirin for horses" and more literally
"Advil/Nuprin/Mortin for horses".  Note, however, that in larger doses, 
phenylbutazone in horses, like ibuprofin (and phenybutazone) in people, 
becomes a potent drug rather than an over-the-counter analgesic.  The vet 
supply houses that I deal with require a vet's prescription before shipping 
bute, also.


I'm not advocating using drugged horses in shows.  I wouldn't want to ride
dressage, barrels, rope, cut, jump, etc. on a horse that was on bute.  I 
owe that to the horse and myself not to get us killed or hurt if I can 
avoid it.

I keep bute around the house to give to one of mine should they turn up 
with a pulled muscle from running around chasing each other (you should see 
the two young geldings!) or slipping on the snow (while running around 
chasing each other...) or whatever.  But I don't work 'em while they're on 
bute - just a little exercise to keep 'em from getting stiff.  I have only 
really used the stuff on an old gelding we had while he was recuperating 
from a serious wire cut on his front leg.  I don't ever want to use it 
again at all...




Greg

    re: .22
    Greg, thank you. You have done a pretty adequate job of describing
    what bute is. I have also gone out and bought the current issue
    of Equus. I've been meaning to subscribe to that mag anyway. Again,
    Thanks.
    
    bobk
    

    I too keep bute around to treat certain types of lameness. One almost
    has to be versed in the use of drugs like this if you keep performance
    horses and can't afford a lot of unnecessary vet bills.  I only
    use it when a horse is recuperating from an injury and I certainly
    wouldn't want to be woking a horse that's on bute (for my sake and
    his/hers).  I do combine bute with a variety of forms of physical
    therapy, normally I don't use it alone.
    
    Bute is a useful drug, but it's not one that should be used lightly
    or without education.  Long term use of bute can leach calcium from
    bones (the orthopedic vets at Ohio State use it only sparingly for
    long term recovery patients - like broken legs).  It also can lead
    to gastrointestinal problems when used in high doses or over a long
    period of time.  And finally, it's not a drug that should be combined
    with any other (excepting antibiodics), especially tranquilizers
    and muscle relaxants.  They can amplify the effect of each other
    and are particularly prone to masking of problems.
    
    One more bute note... About five years ago, I broke my back in a
    fall.  Since then I've used bute myself to keep mobile.  For me
    it seems to work well and without a lot of complications.  It's
    important to remember that people bute is different from horse bute.
    The active chemical is the same but the base for horses is not healthy
    for people.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    This discussion concerning the use of Bute is most interesting.
    We have shown saddlebred horses for several years.  My general
    observation is that the majority of saddlebred horses in training
    suffer from some sort of injury that requires Bute in order to
    work sufficiently hard to be ready for the ring.  In most cases,
    the owners have invested a substantial amount of money in their
    horse(s) and it is not practical, from an economic point of view,
    to simply put them up.  Like human athletes, horses quickly lose
    their condition when not worked on a consistent basis.  And I would
    point out that human athletes often use legal drugs which permit
    them to continue training when injured.  Judicious use of Bute,
    in particular, permits the equine athlete to continue in competition.
    
    As regards the 4-H world, my daughter was involved with 4-H here
    in Georgia for many years.  Bute is used routinely, when needed,
    at the area, state, and regional contests.  I agree with others
    in this conference who feel that this is appropriate so that the
    youngsters can compete.  In particular, it allows the child with
    an older, somewhat arthritic animal to show.  Remember, 4-H
    requires that the kids OWN their horses in order to show them. 
    Can't be leased or borrowed.  4-H horse shows are great experience
    for children.  They are very much oriented to the child, not the
    adult. 
    
    Children should learn that drugs are another tool to assist in
    equine management.  If we want horses to be "natural", then we
    should not ride them.  Once, however, a person climbs on the back
    of a horse, he/she should be prepared to deal with the injuries
    that will inevitability occur over time.
    
    					=paul=

    I really don't agree with you at all.  It is different for an
    athlete to take a pain killer he knows what he is doing he
    is not being forced to take the pill.  An athlete can decide
    when it is to dangerous to mask the pain.  When you give a horse
    bute you are forcing an injured animal to perform and since
    the horse can't talk you may be adding to the injury.
    
    What is more important the horse or the investment in the animal?
    If the investment is the most important forget about horses and
    invest in cars. 

    I have a Saddlebred which I show Country Pleaure.  When I bought
    her 7 years ago, she was two and a half and had been broken as a
    5-gaiter.  I chose not to show her as such seeing as how I was 10
    at the time.  Three years ago she colicked and had to undergo major
    surgery.  She had a very high fever for several weeks.  This caused
    her to get laminitis last year.  She is a very successful show horse
    and this outbreak caused us to lose a state championship.  Since
    then, she has been lame on and off.  I have missed several very
    important shows as a result.  
    
    	Obviously, her condition is going to remain uncertain for quite
    some time.  I have cut no corners in her care; she is shod at the
    University of Ga. vet school every month.  Still, nothing more,
    except using bute,  can be done.
    
    	Another point I'd like to make is that several of the best show
    horses in this country have permanent or recurring ailments.  These
    require the use of bute to keep it showing sometimes.  This is not
    bad- it is necessary.  The use of bute in such cases does not hurt
    the horses any more than they already are.  It just allows them
    to be the fabulous show horses that they are.
    
    Julie

    Just as a reply to one of the previous replies, 4-H does NOT require
    the kid to own the horse.  The horse may be leased, borrowed or
    owned as long as the 4-H member provides at least 75% of the care.

    4-H was founded in the state of Georgia and ownership is required
    here.  It would not surprise me if Yankees did things differently.

    
    		Now hold on now, my family are all rebels.;^)
    
    	well paul, you might have to own in georgia,HOWEVER...in
    DENVER you do not.  and we also DONT allow any type of drug
    administered to the horse.     I have seen the way saddlebreds have
    to be worked and i can see why they would on occasion need bute,
    thats why i would never own one.  because of the special care
    they require(sometimes). 
    		lets look at it this way, say i had a fancy stallion and 
    the horse was lame or ouchy,for whatever reasons and i show the horse 
    with bute in him. and i have a couple of mares bred to him, and
    people see him in the ring and they also want to bred to him.
    	arent you just passing bad genes along the bloodlines?
    if i had a horse that needed bute to go good in the ring... i wouldn't
    show plain and simple. and if i bred my mare to that same horse
    and later found out he was lame i would be pis*ed, and thats putting
    it mildly. please correct me if i'm seeing things the wrong way.
    
    		wendy.
    

    re: .29
    
    I think the reason that kids aren't required to own the horse in
    New England is because at this point there is so much industry and
    such moving into the area, there are fewer and fewer places for
    kids to keep horses without having to pay an arm and a leg to board
    them out so if the kids can get ahold of a horse, then it is felt
    that as long as they provide at least 75% of the care (feeding,
    riding, grooming, etc.) then it is fine for them to be in 4-H.
    
    I don't think there is any reason for you to attack Yankees just
    because things are done a little different up here than in Georgia.
    If I am misunderstanding your reply in .29, then I apologize.
    
    Happy Thanksgiving all!
    
    Linda
    

    Let me say first, that I do not enter the following comments to
    intentionally antagonize anyone.  I enter them in the interest of
    clarity of position.
    
    >.25
    >We have shown saddlebred horses for several years.  My general
    >observation is that the majority of saddlebred horses in training
    >suffer from some sort of injury that requires Bute in order to
    >work sufficiently hard to be ready for the ring.  .  .  .  .
    
    I find it interesting that you specifically reference saddlebreds.
    It has been _my_ general observation that of all the breeds,
    saddlebreds are more often pushed beyond their physical limitations.
    How many times saddlebreds are left in their stalls 24 hours a day,
    less the 15-20 minutes they're worked.  They're brought out of a
    stall all hot and bothered and rushed through a complete workout
    in the time most breeds take to warm up.  
    
    To further complicate the matter, these horses are asked to perform
    on extremely long feet.  This just adds to the physical stress they're
    subjected to.  There are lots of saddlebreds in the world who do
    not have the conformation to support working in long feet....just as 
    there are lots of thoroughbreds who do not have the conformation to 
    support the stresses of jumping activities.  Quite honestly, I'm 
    amazed that there aren't more bowed tendons and pulled suspensory 
    ligaments in saddlebreds.
    
    I am not niave enough to believe that _all_ saddlebreds are handled
    in this manner, but I've been in enough "saddlebred barns" to know
    that it's not out of the ordinary either.  Don't you believe in
    retiring your horses?  No one, that I've noticed, in this conference
    has suggested that Bute be outlawed all together, but as use it
    as a medical tool, not a tool to allow inconsiderate or uneducated 
    owners to _show_ injured animals for the gain of the all mighty
    dollar.
    
    Ann
    
    P.S.  I did a majority of my growing up in North Carolina...4-H'ers
    were not required to "own" there either.  They were, however, expected
    to provide X% of the animal's care.

    As the owner of two non-showing saddlebreds I would like two put
    in a good word for this breed.  My mare has been a very sound
    intelligent trail horse.  I have owned a thoroughbred, a quarter
    horse, an arab/appy cross, a walker, a passo fino/quarter cross,
    but my last three have been saddlebreds.  Since I ride huntseat
    or dressage and use to show huntseat, I think I can be considered
    a fairly impartial judge of the breed.   This breed has been
    very der rated by those who do not ride saddleseat.  I have also
    found that the saddleseat riders of my aquaintaince do not use their
    horses half as hard as the hunterjumper people.  The "long
    toe" of the park horse is offset by an equally long heel, this keeps
    the angle of the hoof correct.  It is the ANGLE not the hoof length
    that will make a horse lame.  Seven years at saddleseat stables
    has managed to clear up some of the misconceptions I had from spending
    fifteen years at hunter/jumper/dressage stables.  I have found good
    and bad horsemanship is dependent on the person not the breed or
    style of riding.
    
    Cher
       

    re .33
    
    Cher - I'm sorry if I left you with the impression that I was picking
    on saddlebreds as a breed.  That was not my intention, and I tried
    to indicate that in my original note.  I enjoy a nice saddlebred
    as much as the next guy, and have played around with some gaited
    horses in my day.
    
    My intent was to point out to .25 that perhaps he was using a
    justification for the use of bute based upon his specific experience
    in _his saddlebred show barn_ rather than looking at the how the
    drug can be mis-used as well.
    
    Ann _who_doesn't_always_express_herself_very_well

    Thank you for your observations, Wendy.  I can't say that I agree
    with the way 4-H is run in Georgia.  This very topic of horse ownership
    is a continuing controversy.  As you can well imagine, it comes
    up every year.  There are other unwise aspects to the pony club
    side of 4-H in Georgia . . .
    
    Anyway, Saddlebreds do seem to have considerable leg problems; no
    doubt because of the way they are worked.  But probably also because
    of some of the breeding.
    
    At the same time, most of the horses at our current barn are hunters.
    The ones that show (and jump) likewise have frequent problems,
    especially with their feet (navicular).  Bute is administered in
    order to keep them showing, so it isn't just the saddleseat folks.

    Well, Linda, I guess maybe I was a little sharp with my remark about
    Yankees.  Actually, I was raised in Mississippi, where it never
    has really been accepted that the War of Northern Aggression ended
    in 1865.
    
    Your point about the shortage of places to board up North makes
    a lot of sense to me!  Since I will probably be moving up the the
    GMA one of these days . . . what is the boarding situation like?
    There are PLENTY of good stables in the Atlanta area, with a wide
    range of boarding arrangements.  Is it difficult to find a place
    up there?  
    
    =paul=

    Ann, I very much agree with your observations concerning the saddlebred
    world.  As for retiring the horses, it is not all that uncommon
    for them to be shown into their early twenties.
    
    I might also comment that it is easy to get caught up in the
    competitive side of showing, which is not always best for the animals.
    Nevertheless, this happens and will continue to be common, especially
    in professional saddlebred barns, as long as there is money to be
    made.  Perhaps the new IRS code will make some difference.

    Paul, I live in Massachusetts (about 205 miles away from Boston)
    and have had to (unfortunately) rely on boarding my horse at stables
    in the area.  The number of stables has been drastically reduced
    because of urbanization, etc.  The stables that remain are mainly
    large training/boarding/showing stables where the board runs fairly
    high and you pay for everything.  I currently pay around $225 per
    month to have my horse fed 3 times a day, turned out daily in a
    field, stall cleaned, indoor arena, worming and excellent care however
    I think that is extremely low for this area.  I have to drive
    25 miles to get to the barn but it is worth it!
    
    I would say that people in this area generally pay $275-??? for
    decent care (feeding, stalls cleaned, turnout) which doesn't
    necessarily include an indoor riding area for winter riding (too
    dark to ride outside)!
    
    I have only been to Georgia twice, once to Atlanta for an overnight
    trip and once to Savannah for a vacation, but what I saw, I really
    liked.  If you come north with your critters, don't forget your
    blankets for the winter!!!
    
    Linda
    

    re: .38
    
    That's supposed to be 25 miles, not 205 miles out of Boston!  Oh
    well!
    

    This probably should be a separate note, but Linda is right
    in saying that $225.00 is very reasonable.  There aren't very
    many barns in the area that you can really trust.  Prices
    range from $150 and up, but finding a truly nice barn with 
    adequate facilities is like finding a needle in a haystack!
    I have two of my horses boarded out for the winter for 
    convenience, but am fortunate enough to have my own barn.  I
    know I wouldn't have more than 1 if I had to permanently board.
    
    Marianne
    

    HAVING JUST MOVED BACK TO NEW ENGLAND FROM VIRGINIA I"VE BEEN AMAZED
    BY PRICES AN SO FORTH ALSO FOR BOARD,I'M LUCKY I GUESS I WAS ABLE
    TO BOARD MY FOUR MARES AT MY BROTHER-IN-LAWS PLACE..THE REAL QUESTION
    THOUGH-----BUTE----BEING A SHOWPERSON OF MARES AND A STALLION IN
    THE PAINT/PINTO WORLD BOTH HERE AND DOWN SOUTH I'VE SEEN QUITE A
    BIT OF "STABLE GOINGS ON"NOT JUST W/BUTE.CURRENTLY FROM WHAT I'VE
    BEEN ABLE TO FIND OUT FROM THE APHA(AMERICAN PAINT HORSE ASSOC.)IS
    THEY HAVE ONLY ALLOCATED $2500.00 NATIONWIDE FOR RANDOM DRUG TESTING
    OF SHOWS,SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? SELF-POLICEING BY THE MEMBERS THEM-
    SELVES. I CAN GUARANTEE IF I SEE A PERSON DRUGGING A HORSE AT ANY
    TYPE SHOW-THEY WILL BE REPORTED.I TOO HAVE AN INVESTMENT IN MY HORSES
    ESPECIALLY IN MY STUD,AND IF HE NEEDED ANY TYPE OF DRUG TO PERFORM
    THEN IT'S STAY HOME TIME.IT IS THAT BLACK AND WHITE-WE OWE IT TO
    ALL THE YOUNG PEOPLE NOT JUST THOSE ON HORSEBACK,THEY ARE INDEED
    OUR FUTURE-     WELL I GUESS I'VE PREACHED ENOUGH
    
    THANKS FOR LISTENING,AND KEEP THE REPLIES COMING
    GARY

    
    	YEAH Gary!
    
    	I saw lots of NASTY things going on in the "professional" world
    	of showing and after seeing this for awhile I walked away and
    	I haven't seen a show for over five years.  Mind you, most of
    	the time I was just there to watch and enjoy these beautiful
    	cridders.
    
    	I am not saying things go on at every show but I did see my
    	share.
    
    	All I know that _sometimes_ when horses are your business, you
    	are sometimes pushed too far.  A good show barn - means winning
    	only to _some_.  The horses stop being living, breathing creatures
    	and become "things" to use as you need them - like a car... 
    	You do "what you have to" to make sure you get the end result
    	and your money's worth.  "If he/she breaks - I'll buy another
    	one."
    	
    	It all comes down to what each of us think is important.  I
    	still have my very first horse, we grew up together, he saved
    	my life twice, and we have traveled countless miles together
    	and through it all - he is sound.  I am not saying he hasn't
    	had his share of bumps and bruises...  But, with all the miles
    	we have traveled - not ONE time have I ever pushed him too far
    	brought him home lame.  I would hope not to ever want something
    	bad enough that I would not consider him first.
    
    	He is now retired - he will be 31 this February and I am only
    	now considering using Bute on him because his hips seem to be
    	starting to pain him.
    
    	Bute does have it's place - as with all drugs.  But it should
    	be used for helping and not for covering up problems.  If a
    	horse is pushed so far that they are not sound - doesn't that
    	ring a bell that there is SOMETHING wrong in the way the horse
    	is being handled??????????????????????
    	
    	As far as 4-H... Well, when I was a kid, I couldn't join because
    	I was told that I had to OWN.  That was really too bad, because
    	I really could of still learned so much from 4-H.  I hope they
    	do away with that rule.  My parents couldn't afford to buy me
        one... so I had to save and buy my own.  It took 9 years, but I 
        did it.
    
    	I am not trying to toot my own horn - but I don't believe that
    	drugs = soundness.
    
    	My 2 cents worth....  I hope I haven't offended anyone.
    
    	Susan  

    
    
    	WOW!!!
    
    	Was that a hot one or what???  I had to read all the replies in
    this topic.  I myself have used bute but NEVER at shows.  I have always
    been told if you use bute on a horse they will most likely make the
    problem worse.  
    	I had a Peruvian Paso who was a bit accident prone, ok I'm lying,
    he was and accident looking to happen.  One of his worse mishaps was
    getting his head stuck between the barn and the padock post.  The post
    was almost flush to the building.  we belive he was rubbing his neck
    and somehow sliped and fell into the crack.
    	when he was found he had been doing some strugeling and had crushed
    his temporal bones.  The vet and I were pulling bone fragments out of
    his head for 2 hours.  In the end, he was stiched up.
    	by morning, his face was so swelled up he couldn't see.  I couldnt
    even find his eyes.  Anyhoo, the vet said to give him bute if he
    started shaking his head around.  I wasn't sure why he said this untill
    about an hour latter when he acted like a crazy man.  The poor thing
    had a raging head ach.  He was on bute for 2 weeks and it kept him from
    bashing his head again.
    
    
    virginia