Conference noted::equitation

    
    
    
    Hi.  I can give some information that might be helpful to half your
    question.  Since you have the tatoo number of the mare, you could
    write to the Thoroughbred Registry and request the owner's name,
    address, etc ect.  Whether or not you get this information will
    depend on the rules for this registry as to whether or not they
    can give this information out.  If the mare was sold without papers
    to you, then it is possible that she has gone through a couple of
    sales minus her papers.  Many times, when this happens, a long
    ago owner (usually the last one that she was  registered to ) keeps
    her registered in their name.)  This may not be the answer to your
    questions, but it would be a starting point.  Find out who they
    sold her to etc etc until you can actually find out who had her
    bred.  To register your gelding, most registries require info
    regarding Dam's name, Sire's name, date of breeding, date of
    foaling, where foaled and other information.  If you write to the
    T-bred registry, you may as well ask for a registration form and
    then you will know what questions you will have to answer.
    
    I was in a similar position 5 years ago.  I had bought a 3 month
    old Standardbred trotter who was from two registered parents.
    He was, at the time, unregistered, which is not uncommon for a
    foal so young since many people wait until they are yearlings.
    In this case however, I did not know that information was missing.
    My friend owned the mare but had bought her in foal from a man
    who had died.  This person was tracking down relatives to find
    out the information he needed to register the foal.  He finally
    located the relatives that had the information he needed but
    further complications had arisen.  The stallion had been pur-
    chased by this person who later died but the sale had not been
    on paper.  Before the person died, he sold the stallion to a
    person in N.H. who did transfer ownership.  This person was lo-
    cated but he had since gelded the animal and was unaware that
    the horse had ever been used for breeding so he was unable to
    supply the information needed.  Since the person who actually
    bred the two horses had died, we ended up having to locate the
    people he'd purchased the stallion from and tell them the situation.
    They agreed to sign a breeding certificate for a fee of $200.00
    I tell you this because you may run into this if you do ever manage
    to track down the information to register your horse.  Since you
    do not intend to use your horse for breeding purposes, you might
    end up doing a lot of aggravating work only to find that someone
    wants $$ out of you.  But then again, you may not.  It depends on
    the person.
                                                              
    Goodluck in your search.
    
    

    Just why is it you want to register your gelding and as what?
    "Registration" is pretty meaningless these days in many breeds.
    "Registered" Appaloosas need not have a single spot and "Registered"
    Quarter Horses can be indistinguishable form thoroughbreds. You
    can even "register" a single horse with two different breed registries.
    Since your horse can't perpetuate its breeding I am not sure that
    it's worth the effort. Somebody once was trying to establish
    "Thorcherons" as a breed and there's something called the American
    Sport Horse that's trying to be an American Warmblood (since warmbloods
    are all the rage nowadays).
    
    I have seen many "papered" horses, some of which even were related to
    the horse described on these "papers". Xerox machines are everywhere,
    and horses and their papers often part company. In short I don't
    think registration has any value. Even those breed registries that
    do exercise tight control over their registrations, like some of
    the Warmblood associations, don't acknowledge that three generations
    back in their blood lines the forebears of the breed were ploughing
    the fields of Germany.
    
    I also own a Thoroughbred/Percheron cross gelding. To annoy the
    Warmblood enthusiasts, I describe him to them as an Algonquian
    Warmblood since he came from Canada too. I value him for what he
    can do, which is a little bit of everything, while remaining sane,
    sound, friendly and easy to keep. That's worth much more than any piece
    of paper.

re:.2

I could not agree more. I've owned and worked horses for more than thirty
years and in that time I've seen breed characteristics altered, mostly for
show, and 'poor' horses used for breeding simply because they were registered.

When I was a boy growing up on a farm, not that long ago, we had a team of
register Morgans. During the week they were used as a light work team and
on Sunday my Grandpa used them to take Grandma to church. Five years ago, we
tried to find a Morgan team to use for carriage rides. After several months
we gave up the idea. Very few of the ones we tried even looked like Morgans
and none of them acted like a Morgan. They may have looked flashy going 
around in a circle at a show, but they were too hot to use for commercial
carriage work.

The Belgian breed has also changed and is presently in a state of change. 
The horse we know in North America as a Belgian horse bears almost no
resemblance to the European Belgian. The North American Belgian horse is
changing today to reflect the demand for tall, leggy hitch horses. I don't
think that registry in a breed which quickly alters characteristics means
much. Isn't the real purpose of registry to maintain and protect the 
distinguishing characteristics of a breed? Or is it just for snob appeal?

If we really care about horses we should breed for improvement and only for
improvement. Standing a good stud to a poor mare may improve on the mare but
not on the breed. Also a herd sire is usually selected because he passes on
traits the owner desires. That does not mean, however, that all mares will 
benefit from the union. Too often owners stand a stud because it means a fee
or because the mare is ready and there's only one stud on the farm. 

I've strayed from the subject, but my point is that all horses, breeding stock
and general use horses, should be picked by merit and not just because of 
papers. 

    
    Boy oh boy do I agree! We had a stable full of unregistered
    champions that I wouldn't have traded for all the cash value
    of breeding papers in the world.
    
    But I have two comments relative to this discussion - Tyke, if
    you want to keep looking for a Morgan hitch, try to find a
    couple in the Lippet (spelling?) bloodline. We had a little
    (14.3 hh) stallion, Lippett Roscoe, who was just such an
    "old-fashioned" Morgan as you describe. In fact I judged a
    show once and was never asked to return after I placed a
    real classic little guy over a horse that looked like a
    thoroughbred/saddlebred cross!!
    
    Also, I LOVE the perch/thoroughbred cross - we had three that
    I used to teach cross-country riding (I hesitate to call it
    hunting in So. Vermont). Abbadabbah was a big chestnut that
    would have loved to be a lap dog - a real character with a
    personality as kind as a stuffed toy (he stood 18.1 hh!!).
    O'toole inherited his dapple grey color from his percheron
    dam - so gentle I taught brand new beginners on him as well
    as jumping. And Beachcomber took every one of my "graduate"
    class to their first open jumping show. He was a classy
    chestnut with big mattress gaits that I swear memorized
    the layout by watching the horse ahead of him and then
    took the kids over by balancing them on his back!!
    
    Whew - enough memorabilia - those were the years.
    
    Diana

    Re: .4
    	Diana is right about the Lippett Morgan bloodline. If you are
    interested in good "old-fashioned" morgan bloodstock this is what
    you want to look into. If interested, contact me via vaxmail offline
    at PFLOYD::CATANIA. I will put you in touch with a friend outside
    of DEC with the most incredible example of what a Morgan is supposed
    to look like.

    Does anyone know where I could get more information on T/B-Percherons.
    I am very interested in owning one, and would greatly appreciate
    any help or contacts you could give.  Thank you.
    
    Respond offline to Parsec::Scraggs
    or dtn 247-2400.
    

    What type of generation?  re .2
    
    Assuming a horse generation is 6 or 7 years then .2 implies that
    horses were plowing the fields in the mid-sixties.  Unless you are
    talking about East Germany I think it is generally accepted that
    the Marshall Plan did a better job of rebuilding Germany than
    using horses to plow fields would imply.
    
    While I can't speak for any breeding associations except the German
    Hannovarian Verband, some breeding associations do  provide worthwhile
    registrations.  The Hannovarian Verband is now restricting mares
    to be under a certain height so we don't have 8ft. horses.  About
    three horse generations ago they introduced a lot of thoroughbred
    blood so the modern Hannovarian did not look like a carriage or
    plow horse.  While there is some historic value to keeping the
    breeds unchanged, there is even more value to molding them to
    modern demands such as jumping, dressage, and three-day eventing.
    
    In summary, registration is an important method of improving the
    breeed.  The problem is that people breed whatever they have.
    I have heard, for example, that 90% of Arab colts remain stallions.
    For comparison less that 5% of warmblood colts are accepted as
    stallions.  There is some snobbishness to breeding only to registered
    mares and stallions, but if we are too egalitarian then the horses
    suffer.
    
    Gregory Richardson
     

    I find it VERY hard to believe that 90% of Arabian colts remain
    stallions.  There are too many fine stallions to choose from; why
    would a breeder spend the time/money breeding to an inferior one?
    To what end?
    
    Perhaps you might like to follow some of the futurities.  Colt classes
    have about 15-20 weanlings and yearlings.  The number is reduced
    about half by two-year-old classes.  In the three-year-old class,
    there may be three, usually two, colts.  By the same token, the
    geldings have increased their numbers.
    
    I'm curious:  Did you read that percentage somewhere OTHER than
    the Sports Illustrated article last spring about Arabian showing?

    Dear Reader,
    
    Well, maybe not 90%.  Do you know of some source I could
    look at to get a better figure?  Anyway, I think the rate
    of keeping colts stallions is higher in the Arab business
    than say warmbloods.
    
    Gregory

    90% of Arab colts does sound high but I also think there are more
    uncut colts in the Arab breed than in most others.  That is beginning
    to change with the prize money being offered by the IAHA Breeders
    Sweepstakes since Geldings are awarded a 50% premium for their
    winnings.  At the Nationals last week that amounted to $18,750 for
    a National championship.  There is also a resolution before the
    IAHA convention in a couple of weeks that will restrict juniors
    from riding stallions in IAHA sanctioned shows.  I'm personally
    against it as it a way to do it but for all the wrong reasons. 
    Maybe International will be providing some statistics in the future
    on the number of colts that are cut.

    I'll tell you what can be done from my own personal experience.
    
    
    Subject:  20 year old TB broodmare (registered)
    
    Problem:  2 owners previous didn't get papers from sale.
    
    In short (I hope)  We were given a TB mare after she was injured and
    the owner didn't want to take the time to waite for her recovery.  We
    were told she was registered.  
    First problem:  We were told her name was Stealthy's Girl.  I soon
    discovered that was not correct.
    I left something out.......The person we got her from didn't have the
    papers.  >He said the woman he bought her from still had them.  Upon
    finding said woman we discovered she had left them in the truck of the
    guy that delivered the mare to her.  She never thought of trying to get
    them back.
    All hope is not lost  .........
    She did remember the name of the farm where she had bought the mare
    herself.  Upon calling said farm I got all the vital information on the
    mare but he didn't have a copy of her papers.
    At this point I decided to call the Jockey Club.  This was the most
    depressing call I have ever made.  I was told the horses ownership had
    never changed from the farm owner.  I also needed a statement from the
    woman stating how she lost the papers and who had them last.  Well, the
    woman dicided she wanted nothing else to do with this and refused to
    answer my phone calls.  I did find out where she lived and payed a call
    to her.  Upon doing this I found out she had 2 BIG Rots and one big
    husband.  
    Now back to her Wrong name.  When I called the Jockey Club, they Had no
    record of a Stealthy's girl at all.  That was when I found out her name
    was Stealthy period!!!!  
    To make this short.( a little late now ), the farm owner is going to
    fill out a "duplicat certificate" form and send it to us and we are
    going to mail it in along with our $100.00.
    Moral of the story is YES! YES! YES!  REGISTER WHEN YOU CAN!!!!!
    
    Another note.  Alot of registries only do new registrations up to 3
    years.  After that you can't register.
    
    virginia

    RE:  Last
    
    To find out the correct name of the horse, give the Jockey Club
    the tatoo number on the horses upper lip.  They should be able to
    look it up on the computer!  They will also have all the horses
    racing records and pedigree etc.  The pedigree is important if you
    are planning to breed her to another TB.