Conference noted::equitation

    I'm no expert, but have been showing at local summer shows in the
    Eastern Mass. area for about four years now.
    
    In Hunter over Fences classes, the judge is probably looking for
    a controlled pace, quiet way of going, soundness, good jumping form
    (the horse, not you!), and (very important) proper striding between
    fences (getting the correct "spot" for take-off).  Correct leads
    also count.
    
    Watch at least a few rounds before you go in for yours, and count
    the number of strides other horses get between a line of fences.
    It's probably four to six, depending on how the course is set up.
    Decide whether your horse is longer- or shorter-strided (or normal!)
    than the others, and then shoot for the "easy five" or "short six"
    or "long four" or whatever.  Just be consistent.  At home, practice
    counting the strides as you're between fences, and be prepared for
    take-off when you hit the right number.
    
    "Chipping in," missing your spot so that you have to take a short
    choppy stride just before the fence, is an error, as is taking off
    "too long" (too far away).
    
    Remember to finish off your course with a canter-down-to-trot circle,
    and leave the ring trotting (you may walk as you reach the out gate).
    They are probably trying to keep things moving, and the next rider
    will be coming in as you are trotting out.
    
    If your horse refuses a fence, consider whether you set him up improp-
    erly before you take a stick to him.  If he refuses in the middle
    of an in-and-out or other "closed" combination, you are required
    to jump the entire combination again, i.e., not just the "out" of
    the in-and-out.
    
    For flat classes, your horse is judged on manners, performance,
    and soundness.  
    
    Martingales are only allowed in classes where horses are to jump.
    They are supposed to be allowed in hunter hack classes (flat work
    and two fences) according to AHSA rules, but at Sunshine Farm a
    few weeks ago they were not allowing martingales in the hack classes.
    
    Hope this is helpful, and if I have made any gross errors or someone
    else can add something, please do.
    

    Hi Julie!
    
    Well, speaking as a carded judge (hunter/jumper and western) I can
    only telll you MY feelings.  First of all you must understand that
    some classes at one show may not be judged the same as the same
    classes at a different show.  Why?  Different organizations use
    different wording which creates inconsistancy across the board.
    As an example, some pleasure classes include suitability of horse
    and rider in addition to way of going, soundness, etc.
    
    Beyond that always remember that when you show you paid and entry
    fee to get the opinion of the judge being used that day.  Whether
    you like it or not.  Further, my opinion may not be the same as
    anothers --- most "rated" shows will not allow a judge to preside
    over the same division within a 28-day period at another "rated
    show".
    
    There are so many things to learn, the best thing I could suggest
    is to join the New England Horsemen's Council, or something like
    that, and read the rules over, and over, and over, and over!
    Appearance is also really important -- at least to me.  You don't
    have to have the most expensive stuff, but I want you and your horse
    clean and prepared to ride the class.  Nothing looks worse than
    to see a lovely pair riding the rail and the horse should be trimmed
    and the rider has hair falling out of his/her hat (YUCK!)  I don''t
    want to use that first!
    
    For what it's worth the best advice I could give you is to stay
    "in training", ride with a mirror when possible, join an organization
    and attend their shows so you know the rules, NEVER approach a judge
    directly (go through a steward or show manager first)--you're at
    a show, not a clinic, unless it's a schooling show where talking
    to the judge is completely acceptable, and don't lose heart. 
    
    There are a couple of thoughts I'd like to leave with you...Judges
    are human, they make human judgements and human mistakes.  They
    are the most hated individuals in the industry behind slauterhouses
    (the only friend a judge makes is the person who won the class),
    know the limitations of you and the animal you are riding, and if 
    you can't win blue, go for white (they dye good!)! 
    
    Best of luck, hope I helped at least a little.
                                                     
    Ann

    HI ! I KNOW THIS IS A LITTLE LATE BUT I JUST DISCOVERED THIS FILE!!
    I AM ALSO AN AHSA, NEHC & 4-H APPROVED JUDGE.  ANN IZZO HAD SOME
    REALLY GREAT ADVICE !!  REMEMBER FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW - THERE
    ARE MAYBE 20 HORSES IN THE RING & WE CAN ONLY GIVE OUT 1 BLUE RIBBON.
    YOU HAVE TO MAKE A GOOD IMPRESSION ON THE JUDGE EACH TIME YOU GO
    BY...... YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE REALLY EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT BUT,
    IT HAS TO LOOK SUITABLE AND NEAT..... ACTUALLY, I DO NOT GET DOWN
    TO REALLY ANALYZING EQUIPMENT BUT THE WHOLE PICTURE MAKES AN
    IMPRESSION.  ANOTHER THING THAT PEOPLE DO NOT REALIZE IS A NICE
    SMILE AND ATTITUDE REALLY SHINES THROUGH TO A JUDGE.... YOU REALLY
    NOTICE WHEN THERE IS A "SOUR PUSS IN THE RING" (AS MY DAD, A JUDGE
    ALSO, LEONARD ROY) WOULD SAY.
    
    I ENCOURAGE A CONTESTANT TO APPROACH ME TO ASK WHAT IT IS I DO NOT
    LIKE OR HOW THEY CAN IMPROVE THEMSELVES ...... ONE THING TO REMEMBER
    DO NOT APPROACH A JUDGE WITH A CHIP ON YOUR SHOULDER ....  YOU WILL
    GET NO HELP THAT WAY -  REMEMBER, AS ANN SAID YOU ARE PAYING FOR
    OUR OPINION.  MY FAVORITE LINE WHEN AN EXHIBITOR TELLS ME THAT THE
    JUDGE 3 WEEKS AGO PINNED HER FIRST ALL DAY WHEN SHE IS REALLY POOR
    IS THIS WEEK ITS MY OPINION.
    
    WELL, IF I CAN HELP WITH ANYTHING PLEASE LET ME KNOW & HAVA HAPPY
    HOLIDAY!!!
     

    Note 483.11 and the beginning fo the show season prompted this.
    
    How many of us have wondered how a judge decides how to place
    a particular class - especially when things don't go just as we
    planned? The way I figure it, judges get blamed for a lot of
    favoritism that just isn't there.  Most judges will have good
    explanations for  how they placed a class.  And most are willing
    to share their opinions (that's what you are paying for) with anyone 
    who asks politely.  Heck, they'll even show you your score card
    and  make suggestions for improving next time around.
    
    Judges are available to talk to at all levels of showing, not
    just schooling shows.  At a AHSA show, you should approach the
    the steward with your request to talk to the judge, and let
    him/her pass along this request at an appropriate time. This is
    important, so as to not disturb an already hectic schedule of
    classes.  
        
    When you do get to talk to the judge, be polite -
    and whatever you do, don't thell them they are WRONG.  You might
    have to show in front of them again, and this tends to leave a
    lasting impression.  And please don't tell them to change the
    class placing because you saw something they didn't - they probably
    saw it anyway. I'm sure judges are born with eyes in the backs of their
    heads.  It is fair to ask for a general critique of you performance
    or to ask specific "technical" questions. I had a judge place one
    of my horses about last in an over fences classes, and then won
    the next one after he explained that my horse should "have a bit
    more pace".

    Given how to find out what the judge is really thinking, perhaps
    we could share our opinions of how they "ought" to think.
    

    How much a blown lead, wrong diagonal or other such error affects
    a horses placing depends on the type of class I'm judging, the
    correction used (if any) and whether or not the error is repeated.
    
    In a pleasure class I may forgive a blown lead, provided it is
    easily and smoothly corrected.  In this class, the horse is being
    judged for the quality of it's gaits and it's ease in being ridden.
    Perhaps it's the rider's fault, and in this case it's not fair to
    penalize the horse, provided there is a timely correction.  This
    correction should not be anything terribly extreme, or you are
    indicating that 1) your horse wasn't really willing in the first
    place and 2) your horse  doesn't accept corrections well.  I heavily
    penalize misbehaviours, and have no problem excusing dangerous horses
    or abusive riders.
    
    The second time a mistake happens, I start thinking of soundness problems,
    and those are certainly no pleasure. And if you don't correct your
    horse?  Then you haven't complied with the class requirements and
    you probably won't place unless I run out of other competitors.
    
    So here's how I place horses in a pleasure class -
    1. Superb mover and no mistakes.
    2. Superb Mover with a corrected mistake
    3. Your basic good horse with no mistakes
    4. Your basic good horse with a corrected mistake
    5. Horses  with repeated corrected mistakes
    6. Horses with uncorrected mistakes
    7. Misbehaving horses

    Comments?

    While I'm at it, here's equitation/horsemanship in a nutshell.
    
    Equitation/Horsemanship classes are judge on the quality of the
    rider, not the quality of the horse.  A fancy horse who makes
    mistakes is not going to do well in this kind of class, regardless
    style.  Ideally you want to be riding something smooth, cooperative
    and somewhat placid. It's pretty hard to look like you know how
    to ride correctly on something that pulls, lists to the right, and
    has gaits like a jack hammer.
    
    In an equitation class I expect the rider to be able to execute
    all the required movements for the class.   This means no blown
    leads.  Given correct performances by two riders, the one who 
    used the correct aids (and looked at ease doing it) will place over
    a less experienced rider on a well trained horse (who is probably
    pleased to have just done everything right).  The correctness of
    a rider's performance is governed by the style of riding you are
    judging, and basic good horsemanship.
    

    
    I pretty much have to agree with the priorities of placing in 591.1.
     
    I have judged a few shows, and have stewarded a few.  Stewarding
    is interesting--you get to hear LOTS of comments regarding the judging.
    And you get to try to smooth over some feelings (hopefully to avoid
    a protest regarding a judges decision.  You can't protect a judges
    decision.)  Plus you get to know the judges pretty well and how
    they feel.
    
    I agree, generally judges try to do the best job they can.  Sometimes
    their best is GREAT.  Sometimes the best job they can do is not
    too hot.  But generally, they try to be honest.  And generally,
    they have a reason for why they place a class.  In addition, they
    tend to be VERY uncomfortable judging a division in which they are
    not qualified (i.e., hunter classes at an Arabian show--most Arabian
    judges are not comfortable).
    
    I feel many exhibitors would benefit greatly by having to do some
    judging themselves.  Having to put THEIR decision on a piece of
    paper and have it read to the entire population at the show makes
    one a little more careful.  
    
    One clinic I was involved with had a portion on judging.  We pulled out
    4 horses to be evaluated for conformation.  Then we asked the entire
    audience to put down their placing on a piece of paper.  THEN we asked
    them to turn the paper in!  You would be surprised how many papers were
    shoved into coat pockets. 
    
    The best "defense" we have as exhibitors is to be as fully prepared
    as we can be to present our animals in the best way possible.  And
    to realize that the judge is probably trying to do the best job.
    
    And if we don't like the judge for some reason, don't show to that
    judge ever again.  And if you are a member of a show committee,
    suggest that judge not be hired again--and back it up with specific
    facts and figures.
    
    A person came to judge a show in the Midwest (a very LARGE show).
    He was prejudicial, rude, and uninformed.  He ran classes not according
    to AHSA rules (which is protestable).  A bonus for us was (after
    we suffered through the show), was that the Arabian division requests
    exhibitors fill out "green cards" (evaluation cards) on the judges.
    
    This show set a new record for the number of cards turned in (around
    460 cards, I believe.  There would have been more but we ran out of
    cards.)  Also his average score (which was very low) from the cards was
    published in the Arabian Handbook.  I suspect he won't judge very many
    shows for a long time. 
    
    We as exhibitors can have input!

	I need an opinion from any judges who judge jumping classes.

	Last Sunday, I was in a small show and I was in a class with two
 2' straight bars followed by trotting the remainder of the ring.

	I took the jumps very smoothly, according to my instructor and others,
 but Skip did not want to slow to a trot, I think he wanted to take the two
 jumps that were on the other side of the ring also.  So I finished the class
 in a canter.

	There were three other participates.  One had a great ride, smooth and
 a nice easy trot afterwards.  Another had two refusals at the first fence and
 the last poped the jumps, again according to my instructor and others.

	I was placed last.  I thought that a refusal was the worst possible
 error.  I realize that my run could be viewed as not running the course
 properly, but I'm confused.  Please help me out of my confusion.  Am
 I wrong or did the judge misjudge????


					Dave.

    Oh, its hard to say what happened.  Did you talk to the judge? 
    Since this was a small show, usually you can get the opportunity
    to talk to the judge to get help on "how to improve".  Usually when
    the judge has done something I can't figure out, and it really means
    a lot to me to find out why, I make sure I get "suggestions on how
    to improve".
    
    Sometimes scores get misplaced or confused (judges are human too).
    Sometimes judges themselves are unsure if they are judging classes
    outside their area of expertise.  
    
    A bunch of us when to a local open show about three weeks ago.  There
    were western classes, english classes and a couple of hunter classes. A
    couple of horses that placed very well over fences cantered around like
    it was a western pleasure class, flopped and fell over each fence (when
    they didn't refuse) and placed over horses who went like real hunters.
    The judge felt it was more important for the horses to canter very
    s-s-s-s-l-l-l-o-o-o-w-w-w-l-y (read 4-beat) than it was to jump safely
    and cleanly.  Then a very good male rider didn't place in English
    Equitation.  He asked the judge why and he was told that "men shouldn't
    ride English".  None of us bothered questioning the judge after that.

    We just used the show as a schooling opportunity.  Sometimes you
    have to proceed with that attitude (or you can go nuts).

    I think I would have placed the class in the same order.  
    
    One of the requirements of the class was the trot after jumping.
    This was included to demonstrate that you had control over your
    horse - and you didn't demonstrate this.  The person with the refusals
    had problems, but they were corrected (barely, I suspect). Don't
    feel too bad about it, most horses who like to jump can be real
    stinkers to get to trot in the middle of a course.  Practice it
    at home.
    
    A refusal isn't the worst thing that can happen.  Sometimes you
    just don't get to a fence at a place where you can jump it safely.
    Personally, I'd rather have a horse with enough sense to stop than
    get us both killed trying to get over it. You aren't going to run
    into that kind of situation over a 2 foot fence, though.
    
    -maureen
    

	I finally was able to get back on to see these responses to my question.

	I did question the judge about my performance and was told that the
refusal, in her opinion, were not as major a infraction as my not trotting.
So my confusion was because another judge has told me before that a refusal
automatically put that person at the bottom, so I was just very confused.

	This judge was also telling people that they were on the wrong lead
when they were not, so I am inclined to ignore the show except for practice.

	I still don't understand why a jumper popping a jump is better than
one jumping smoothly.  Did I not make it clear that the popper got first?

	By the way I don't know it I mentioned it, but I won the Senior
Division Championship for that show, so I'm not really upset about the show
as a whole, but I don't like winning, or losing and not deserving the
desision.  I only want what I deserve.

	Thanks again for the replies.

			Dave.

    Well Hopefully My mare will be off to a good home this weekend.
    In the meantime I would like to start either working towards my license
    for teaching english or Juding some horse shows.. I would be interested
    in Paints/quarter/breed show, but would also love to help out for 4_H
    I used to be on the 4_H judging team for livestock and also horses.
    
    Can anyone tell me how to get my judges card? or anyone I can work
    under. Trveling doesnt bother me if its on the weekend..
    
    thanks for any help on this..
    	
    
    			wendy o'
    

    
    
    You might want to call the breed registries for the breeds you are
    interested in being a judge for.  The Quarter Horse Journal had an
    article on judges and judgeing a few issues ago.  If you would like, 
    I could make a copy of the article and send it to you.  
    
    If I remember correctly, in order to get a card you have to be
    recommended by three current judges and then have several personal
    references.  You would then be able to apprentice with a certified
    judge at breed shows and then take a test.  I think that the also
    require that you attend seminars to remain current on the rule changes
    and to renew your card,
    
    Pat 

    thanks Pat..  I would like a copy mko2-1/f18
    
    I remember a lady talking to me about judging and to give her a call
    but that was i year ago....I would like to work under someone for a year 
    or so..
    		wendy o'

    
    
    	Did you talk with judge.. ?  or ring steward?

    Remember that judge's name, and stay away from shows where she is
    judging the classes you want to take. By the same token, remember
    the judge who gives you good marks and go to those!

    In this case, it may have been "too late", but I've registered
    complaints well after the class (the rider fell off in Hunter
    Pleasure, and pinned in Hunter Pleasure Championship when she should
    have been disqualified - you must complete Hunter Pleasure to be
    in the Championship). In this case *everyone* noticed!

    However, don't ever talk to the judge, and the ring steward isn't
    much help. Go right to the registration desk and file your complaint
    with the show managers. One of their responsibilities is to make
    sure the rules are followed - especially if the show is affiliated
    (e.g. MHC, NEHC, etc). You can also file your complaints with the
    affiliates. And get other people to do the same thing. One voice
    isn't always enough. And if the show managers don't do anything about
    it, then it's arguable as to whether MHC shares in the fault or not.

    But I know what you mean - the prejudices are REALLY aggravating, and
    especially when an equitation class should be judged on the rider,
    rather than the horse. I read "Judging Hunters and Hunter Seat
    Equitation" by Anna White Mullen, which was very good, and now I have
    ammunition when I complain! However, I mostly chalk it up to experience,
    and see what the majority of judges are looking for and go for that.

    Don't let it upset you too much - glad you're showing, and I hope
    most of your experiences are enjoyable!

	-julie

    At least for saddle seat equitation judging in a American Horse Shows 
    Association show (AHSA for our UK & foreign readers members), a judge
    that gets more than 3 written complaints at one show has to go before a
    board to explain their placing.  In fact, I imagine this applies to any
    class that is AHSA rated.  
    
    The previous noter is right - don't say anything to the judge, go right
    to the registration desk and file your complaint.
    
    Also remember - we've all been skunked at one time or another.  For
    whatever reason, judges don't see all or are prejudiced or are just
    plain boobs.  Last year I was in a class that I should have placed
    first or second - two people I know who are horse show judges (and
    friends) were watching me ride were speechless when I got near last
    place.  For whatever reason, the judge just didn't see me or like my
    horse or whatever.  
    
    A person that rides at my stable is the current saddleseat world
    champion in her division and has held that title for several years - a
    top, top rider.  Last year she was in a class that she should have won
    and didn't get a ribbon.  My (our) trainer did ask for permission to
    talk to the judge and got it.  The judge marked on the card that the
    rider missed the workouts.  My trainer put the video tape into the tv
    monitor and they watched the *entire* workout.  The judge was also in
    the video and NOT PAYING ATTENTION but doing "paperwork" in the ring
    with their cards.  The judge just said "I'm sorry but can't change
    anything."
    
    Just remember the judge's name and avoid those shows.
    
      

    MODERATOR NOTE*
    
    Just a reminder, the Digital policy regarding employee interest notes
    conferences states that:
    
    "Statements that attribute improper, illegal, or immoral motives or
     actions to others; statements that cast aspersions on the character
     or integrity of others or that amount to libel or slander are not
     permitted."
    
    In other words, please don't name specific names of judges you have
    had bad experiences with.  Discussing the experiences is fine, and
    an interesting, valuable topic, but please no names! :-)
    
    
    
    

    Another mod heard from...
    
    While I dislike enforcing the policy, I must point out that simply not
    naming the judge is insufficient to be within the rules. If we name the
    location and date of the show, I think it's still a violation of the
    rules because anyone and everyone with an interest would know who you
    were talking about. In other words, we'd still be in trouble if the
    show management or the judge ever read our discussion.
    
    I think it's safe enough to say something like "We went to a show this
    past weekend and had an experience with bad judging" as along as we
    don't name the judge, the show or the facility at which the show was
    held.

    Just a curiousity question, Louisa, I know you show on a fairly regular
    basis...do you often find you run into breed predjudice showing your
    Arab as a hunter? I know they are not the 'standard' hunter type that
    is preferred, but I thought that they were gaining in popularity and
    acceptance at shows.  Am I unfortuneatly wrong? Forgive my ignorance,
    I've been out of the show ring for a number of years now and haven't
    followed the circuits much at all.  I'm planning my next horse to be
    an Arab or Arab/cross, mainly for endurance but would like to think
    I could occasionally do a show without having to deal with the
    prejudice it sounds like you expect.  What a shame you've been made
    to feel that way, Arabs can be such nice, versatile animals.
    

    Linda, 
    
    I've been showing my Fjord at local hunter shows, and I've never
    experienced breed prejudice from judges, but more from actual 
    competitors (cutting me off for example).  We've been in the blues
    (and reds, and greens, and yellows....)for the last two years at local
    hunter shows....not bat for a 13.2hh fat/drafty pony.
    
    M

>>    competitors (cutting me off for example).  We've been in the blues

    Yes! I can't believe how cutthroat some of the competitors are! I
    need to stay away from other horses because my mare will take their
    faces off, given the opportunity. But do they let me? No - and cutting
    us off is a favorite thing! Oh well - just makes showing tactics more
    interesting.

    The larger the shows, the more prejudice, I think. I'm looking for a
    new horse, so I've been looking at what is getting pinned most often
    at the larger shows, to see what the current "climate" is. (These
    are hunter shows - breed doesn't (shouldn't?) mean *quite* so much as
    "type"). But I guess the thoroughbreds display the typey-ness more
    than the other breeds or cross-breeds.

    For a while the warmbloods and warmblood crosses were really cleaning
    up, but now they seem to be pinning the more refined thoroughbreds,
    instead - not the big tall ones, either, but the smaller, more fine-
    boned ones. And they *STILL* call the classes "working hunter"! I don't
    believe that most show hunters have ever actually hunted, or that
    they'd even be good at it, or that some of the "typey-ness" is
    even indicative of a good hunter. But...you want to win, you play
    the game.

    Here's one I heard on the internet (or was it earlier in this conference?):
    If a horse drags one rear toe, bad stifle; if it drags both, good hunter. 

    -julie    

    
    Yes, I do find predjudice at all the hunter type shows I go to.  I go
    to low-level types to A-B types.  I've been doing this for the past
    3yrs, and I have not once had a good non-predjudice expierance.  
    
    I only show at hunter shows because my best friend shows hunter, we love 
    to ride together and we have fun no matter what type of riding we are 
    doing.  My passion is in endurance and dressage. My best friend and I
    take turns ever month on what kinds of show will will do, Aug was her
    month (and 1 weekend in Sept) she wants to do the Tenheath 9/4.. The
    rest of Sept/Oct will be my turn - endurance/hunter-pace/dressage.
    
    I look at the hunter shows as expierance for my horse.  He acts so
    much better now at the shows and he has learned to leave his stable
    mate for a period of time.  Even if I come home w/ 0 (which I allways
    do) I am happy, and I feel like my horse had learned and grown more.
    
    I just can't take it when the predjudice juding is so obvious!
    
    Lou

�     <<< Note 360.27 by EPS::DINGEE "This isn't a rehearsal, you know." >>>
�                                 -< drag toes >-

�    Yes! I can't believe how cutthroat some of the competitors are! I
�    need to stay away from other horses because my mare will take their

This problem isn't just with horse shows - I think it shows up in every 
competition...

I've seen many tricks at dog shows... when the dogs are lined up (nose to 
tail) placing your dog not in line but offset closer to the judge... 
leaving bait (food treats) in the ring to distract other dogs... crowding 
the dog in front of you...

I figure you've got a few choices... if you identify the judge is a pill or 
doesn't like your dog, don't show under that judge again... if the handlers 
are pills, don't get in the ring with them (may have no choice), stay away 
from them (not always possible), or try to play the game right back 
(sometimes tough too).

Most people aren't jerks but the jerks won't go away :)

>>    are hunter shows - breed doesn't (shouldn't?) mean *quite* so much as
>>    "type"). But I guess the thoroughbreds display the typey-ness more

&

>>    they'd even be good at it, or that some of the "typey-ness" is
>>    even indicative of a good hunter. But...you want to win, you play

    For those of us who do not or have not shown hunters, can someone
    please define type.  I have a general idea...but this note requires
    an agreed upon standard.

    

    As I tried to make clear yesterday, we should not mention the name of
    the facility/show when discussing unpleasant experiences, especially
    those in which we think prejudice was obvious. Therefore, I have set 
    notes .15, .17, .18 .19 .20 hidden because they mention the show
    grounds by name or initials. 
    
    If the authors of those notes edit their notes and remove references to 
    the stable, the notes can be restored to the discussion. Otherwise,
    they'll remain hidden or be deleted.
    
    To edit your note, begin by reading it(the author can read hidden
    notes). If, for example, it were 360.15, the following commands would
    work:
    	360.15
    	EXTRACT mynote.file
    	
    The get out of NOTES and edit your file(i.e. mynote.file).
    After you have editted the file, you can restore the note as follows:
    	NOTES EQUITATION 360.15
    	DELETE NOTE/NOCONFIRM    [this will delete your old hidden note]
    	REPLY mynote.file [this will make your replacement 360.last]
	MODIFY NOTE/NOTE_ID=360.15    	[this will change the reply number]
    
    
    Sorry gang
    John

 
re:                      <<< Note 360.30 by KAHALA::HOLMES >>>
>    For those of us who do not or have not shown hunters, can someone
>    please define type.  I have a general idea...but this note requires
>    an agreed upon standard.

    Well, I'm not an expert, but I'll go into some of what I know the
    judges look for in a hunter (the horse, not the rider's equitation).

    First, on the flat: You want the horse to "move out" - stretch its
    front legs ahead, nearly straight at the knee (very little knee action),
    and move from the shoulders, instead. This means the front feet seem
    to "float" over the ground, and very close to the ground. You want
    practically the same with the back feet, and usually in a ring with
    soft and/or deep footing, the back toes will drag in the dirt or
    grass. You also want those back feet to come way under the horse; this
    rounds the back - you never want a hollow back, on the flat OR jumping.
    You want the neck and head held low, although not as low as a western/
    quarter-horse type - but pretty close! In fact, lots of quarter horses
    are very nice hunter movers, too. You want the horse on the bit with
    "light contact", and the nose ahead of the vertical - a little bit
    "poked out" from the typical dressage vertical. (A picture could say
    this a lot more clearly and in a lot less words...!) When you trot or
    canter you want an even, consistent rhythm - not too slow, but certainly
    not fast! Maybe 2 beats to the second in the canter and 2 and a half to 
    the trot? (I'm trying to imagine and time this in my head...) On the
    corners you want your horse to bend, no leaning in and no "falling" into
    the center; and on the straight you want the horse to be straight - head
    and body. You want the feet to track properly, not wing in or paddle out.
    I guess that's enough for now. I also guess I got into "way of going"
    as much as typeyness. 

    And over fences: the gait is VERY important - the fence should be just
    one more canter stride in the even, consistent rhythm of the canter
    around the course (this is the reason for the "hunter circle" at the
    beginning of a course - you establish that rhythm before you start your
    fences). The horse should reach the peak of its arc over the
    fence just above the fence. The front legs should be tucked right up
    with the knees under its chin and it's hooves folded back into its
    chest. The lower leg should be pulled in - not reaching out, not hanging
    down (called "dragging"). The ears should be forward, and the neck
    arc'ed slightly over the fence. The back, again, should be rounded - the
    whole horse should be shaped like its arc over the fence - imagine an arc
    of about a 12-foot diameter line along the ground bi-secting the rails.
    The horse should consistently take off at a point about 2 feet out from
    the fence - you need to get it close to get that arc, and it's an
    easier more graceful jump for the horse when you take off close. Bending
    on the corners is just as important as on the flat - sometimes we forget
    that a jumping class includes the distance between the fences, too! And,
    speaking of distances - EVERY course that has two fences down a line has
    a DEFINITE distance and number of strides between them. If you do more or
    less, you don't get a ribbon. (A stride is about 12-13 feet outdoors and
    about 10-11 indoors - count a half stride after the first then the rest
    of the line gives you your "distances" between fences; at some shows, the
    distances will be marked in feet on the course diagrams.)
    
    Some jumping faults are: dragging (as mentioned above), or reaching (not
    tucking it's front feet up properly), the horse lying on its side over a
    fence; the horse pulling its front legs up to one side, or having them too
    close together or too far apart, or reaching one leg out to the ground
    before the other (the rider being off balance, ducking or hauling on the
    reins can cause some of these things to happen); a hollow back, head too
    high; propping (nearly coming to a stop by stiffening it's front legs just
    in front of a jump - ruins that smoothness, that "one more canter stride").

    Some rider errors that affect your placing are not reaching the top of
    the arc just over the rails (you have to place your horse at the proper
    take-off point), inconsistent rhythm, jerkiness, not bending, not jumping
    in the middle of the fence, not doing a straight line down a line, not
    getting your distances, and of course being "off course".

    I know I went into more than type, but you have to present your horse in
    its best light in hunter classes, and the horse not only has to "look"
    the type, but act it - and that's up to the rider (like keeping it away
    from other horses if it's just looking for the opportunity to take another
    horse's face off!). One of the things you look for when you buy a hunter
    is a quiet, sane personality. And consistent riding (often, which I
    sometimes feel guilty about not doing as much as I should) keeps them 
    that way.

    I guess that's enough rambling - I'll bring in White-Mullen's book and
    see if I can pick out some more. But if you are in a book store that has
    it, just leaf through it - there are easily found sections of pictures
    with do's and don't's you can look at. 

    -julie

    
    Posted with permssion from John (co-mod).

	I wanted to take a moment and tell you about an ongoing
	conversation I have been having with Pat Lupo and the
	Marlboro Equestrian Center.

	I had posted a note in here regarding what I thought was some 
	unfair events that transpired at a MEC show a few months ago.

	I wanted to set the record straight, and tell you all what
	a wonderful person Pat Lupo is.  She must the be the most
	fair and understanding person I have ever meet.

	When she heard I was upset at a few things that happened, she
	contacted me immediately by letter.  She was both concerned and
	upset.  What she was concerned with first was that I had a bad
	experience and she wanted to correct it.  Second, she was upset
	that I had put my thoughts out to all of you.

	Pat bent over backwards to make me understand what happened that
	day and to also make me feel welcome.  Two things she did not
	have to do.

	The idea that her was first concerned was for me and the day I
	had - was just overwhelming.  I'm used to alot of shows poo-pooing
	at the little guy and catering to the big show barns.  
	
	Pat showed at least for her, this is not the case and we should not
	judge all farms/show barns the same.  I can't stress enough how much
	I appreciate Pats honesty, and I have a great deal of respect for her,
	and MEC.

	If I upset anyone where MEC is concerned, I apologize!  It is
	truly a wonderful place.

	Thankyou for listening,

	Louisa 

	Louisa, I'm so happy to hear that things have turned out
	the way they have! I hope you can have a lot of fun showing -
	and it sounds like Pat wants to see to it too!

	There's a short article in this month's HORSE SHOW magazine
	by an AHSA hunter/hunt seat eq. judge which relates to all
	this. I'll put it into the next note.

Posted without permission: from AHSA's HORSE SHOW magazine, October, 1994

    The Judge's View: Hunters Over Fences - Keeping it Simple
    by Walter "Jimmy" Lee [owner/operator of Belcort Farm in Keswick,
    VA; a rgistered hunter, hunter seat equitation, hunter breeding and
    jumper judge for more than 30 years; has trained many AHSA National
    Horse of the Year Grand Hunter Champions

What is a hunter? By definition and tradition, a hunter is a horse of any
breed suitable for carryng a rider in the hunting field. It should be a
good, safe jumper, a good mover that gallops with ease, comfortable,
mannerly and therefore a pleasant ride.

Fair enough. But what is the judge really looking for in the show ring? Let's
have a look at the rules. According to the AHSA Rule Book, Article 2426
mandates that judges evaluate "an even hunting pace, manners, jumping
style together with faults, and way of moving over the course as well as
when being jogged for soundness. Manners to be emphasized in Ladies and
Amateur classes; brilliance in Corinthian and Formal Hunting Attire classes."

So, what does this mean, exactly? In an over-fences class, jumping style is
the major factor judging use toseparate performances of horses that may
appear to many observers to have a basically fault-free round. So, watch for
things that can detract from your overall score. Major faults may eliminate
your horse. These include, but aren't limited to, knock-downs, refusals,
trotting on course, bucking or dangerous jumping. That obvious, you say?
Well, minor faults contribute as well. Common minor faults that judges
penalize, depending on their severity, are jumping out of form, rubbing
fences, missing lead changes, switching leads before a jump, spooking or
shying, pinning ears or ringing the tail.

But let's say your horse exhibits none of these faults and completes the
course error-free. But then so do another dozen horses. What is it that can
give your hunter that estra sparkle to catch the judge's attention? Judges
reward the very talented horse whose performance shows an athletic ability,
style and quality that sets them apartfrom the good horse that just hadd a 
fault-free round. It's these subtle, often intangible differences that
become apparent to the experienced and knowledgeable eye. The main thing
to remember is to keep things simple. Easier said than done, I know. Like
ballet, the hard part is, indeed, keeping it simple, making the execution of 
jumps look essentially effortless.

Remember, the two most important words in our sport are "horse" and "show".
As the exhibitor in an over-fences class, you're the only one in the ring
at a given time. When the curtain goes up, you have the full attention of
the judge. Whether you get silence, applause, or a standing ovation on the
judge's card, however, to a great degree depends on your preparation and
presentation.

What that means is getting ready on time, making sure you and your horse are
turned out well, that your boots are polished and your horse properly
braided, that you have your number and are ready to go when your class
is called.

What does this have to do with actually jumping a course? Don't forget, the
class doesn't just start with the first fence. The judging process begins
as soon a you and your horse enter the ring and you present yourselves to the
judge. Exhibitors should also remember that showmanship is an integral part
ofthe discipline. Horse and rider should show enthusiasm for their
performance and not just go through the motions. The best riders and horses
have--or appear to have--a natural style of grace and balance, rather than
a mechanical and manufactured presentation. Generic, uninspired, and lackluster
performances do not win ribbons. Presence and attitude--ofboth horse and
rider--matter. Now a great rider and showman can't make a bad horse good or a 
good horse great, but he or she can move that horse up in the rankings.

Remember, it's not the judge's job to look through a shoddy or average
performance to "discover" your horse. It's the exhibitor's job to present the
horse in such a manner that the judge believes it is the best horse in the
class.

So, be a little creative. Infuse your perfomance with a little showmanship.
If your horse isn't a top mover or doesn't trot well, when you enter the ring,
don't trot. Pick up your canter early. Don't show the judge what your horse
doesn't do well. The emphasis is on "show", so display your horse's good
points and disguise its weaker ones.

In the process, however, try not to overcompensate. Often judges see
riders letting their emotions show through when they overly correct a
horse for minor fault. This not only draws the judge's attention to the fault
but could often eliminate the horse from a possible ribbon in a class where
the competition is weak. You don't want to take your horse out of the 
running for a ribbon because of your own frustration or disappointment
in a horse's minor error.

Of course, you could do everything right (in your mind) and still not come
away with a top ribbon. As we all know, training, showing and judging horses
is something less than an exact science. Every class is different, and so is
every judge. Theoretically the one doing the judging is knowledgeable in his
or her field. But all a good judge can do is give his or her opinion about
the performance in a particular class on a particular day. If the same group
of horses comes back later and performs differently, they'll be placed in a
completely different order. Perhaps even by the same judge. Judging IS
subjective in the hunter divisions; that's a fact of life. Different
performances appeal to different judges. One judge may penalize a horse
that splits its front-end while other faults may weigh more heavily with
another judge.

That said, exhibitors frequently think of judges as the opposition. That
shouldn't be the case. As judges we want your horse to go as well as you do.
We all want to see good performances and for the best horse to win. And we're
just as disappointed as an exhibitor when something happens to knock a horse
that is having a good round out of the running.

It takes a special physical and mental understanding between horse, rider,
training and owner to keep all concerned in a positive frame of mind during
an often formidable show schedule. The ultimate performance that
exhibitors and judges look for is the horse and rider combination that catches
our eye with a natural, balanced, and stylish round that places them above
all others.

    
    Thanks for entering that Julie!  It is really helpful to get the
    judges thoughts on a class.