Conference noted::equitation

    Saddles to horses are very much like shoes to people.  The saddle
    should fit both the horse and the rider.  If you have a high withered
    horse and a saddle that is cut too low, it will cut the withers
    open and cause damage to them.  Pads and blankets may help in some
    cases but you don't want to use a whole lot of padding and blankets
    or you'll start slipping around up there and may cause the cinch
    to start rubbing the horse's girth and causing more problems.  You
    also want to get the "feel" of the horse under you; not just a lot
    of padding.
    
    Pat
    

    I bought a saddle even though I don't have a horse (yet...).  I
    ride Hunt seat and got a flat jumping saddle from Colt Cromwell
    in Acton, Mass., because I "knew someone who knew someone" who worked
    there and could get a discount.  I have had it a year now, clean
    it thoroughly at least every two weeks (usually once a week), and
    am pleased with my purchase.  
    
    If you will be showing hunt seat, you probably want a flat jumping
    saddle.  If you will be mostly hacking on trails and hunting, you
    may want to go for a classic saddle like the Stubben Siegfried,
    which has the knee rolls and is made for long hours in the saddle.
    If you are doing eventing (dressage and jumping) you want some kind
    of all-purpose saddle, but I am not familiar with those or with
    the saddle seat type of English saddles.
    
    There are different viewpoints on removing the wax after you purchase
    the saddle.  I did.  It requires warm water, maybe a little ammonia
    thrown in, and LOTS of elbow grease.  Then you will want to oil
    the saddle, with a good oil like Hydrophane (made in Germany, comes
    in a blue tin, you paint it on with a brush).  You will want to
    oil it a lot (except the seat only once or twice), especially the
    underside rough parts, which soak up the most oil, the first couple
    of weeks, until it doesn't feel dry anymore.  Then, about once a
    year may be enough.
    
    For regular cleaning, I take a damp sponge (squeeze out as much
    water as possible) and clean all the dirt and dust off.  You can
    really see if you've gotten the dirt off if soapsuds aren't in your
    way.  Then I use a damp sponge again with glycerine soap (hardly
    any lather works up) and go over the whole saddle to clean and
    condition.  Any lather left on saddle I wipe off.
    
    

    Has anybody seen the add in Horseplay for the strangely
    colored saddles (like bright red and blue!)  I might be a little
    conservative, but I think I might feel a silly riding arround in
    a high-tech saddle.   They do look comfortable.
    
    A side note:
       I have a 17 inch Passier century (all purpose type) saddle for
    sale.  It's about 3 years old and is being sold due to a successful
    diet.  It's priced at $550.
    
    
    

Hi!

	I've been wondering... how does one measure a horse for a saddle??
   I ask as I've been drooling over saddles in various catalogues and they
   (the catalogues) state that the saddles come in "7 tree widths, just send
   a tracing of your horse's withers!  etc".  

	I would assume that the tracing would be a sihouette of the withers
   from the side (I can't imagine how one can trace their horses withers
   from above).  But how can the sihouette show how prominent the critter's
   spine is, or the muscular grooves, etc??

	Thanks!
		Caroline

   P.S. No, I'm not in the market for a saddle... but someday :-)!

	

    
    	Hi Caroline...
    
    	I am not sure it this company is asking for this but, I know
    	of another one that requests that you take a wire coat hanger
    	and bend it to the shape of your horse's withers (as a saddle
    	would sit) and then take the wire and place it on a paper bag
    	or large piece of paper and then trace it.  I think that is
    	what they are asking for.
    
    	Susan

    Are the saddles english or western?  When they say 7 tree
    widths, do they mean seat sizes or the actual shape of the
    tree?  Most english saddles I've seen have their 'average'
    tree width, but you can order either a wide or narrow tree
    depending on your horse.  
    
    Also, how can a side view (tracing) of your horse's withers
    tell them how wide the tree is?  It won't tell them how 
    your horse's back is shaped (ie. like a table or very flat
    sided).  Most big bodied QHs or Morgan's might need a wide
    tree whereas a TB or very fine boned horse might require
    an average or narrow tree.  Saddle fitting is very tricky
    and many people will find one that fit's them very well
    and use different type of padding for different horses.

Hi -
     No, the '7 tree widths' refer to the actual shape of the tree, the
   seat sizes were separate.  I believe the use of wire-hanger to determine 
   the shape of the withers (.1) makes alot of sence! (It hadn't occured to
   me either!)

				-Caroline

    Just a word of caution, saddles to horses are like shoes to people.
    If they don't fit properly, they'll cause sores whether they're
    western or hunt seat saddles.
    
    I've seen some high withered horses in the past that had low gullet
    (the gullet of the saddle is located just under the saddle horn which
    sets over the horse's withers for those who might not know) saddles
    used on them.  These were usually on rental string horses at stables. 
    I've seen the damage done to a horse's withers due to improper fit of
    a saddle and it's not very pretty.  Even when they used a thick pad and
    a blanket to raise the gullet up off the withers, the raw open sore still
    was irritated.  Some people in that kind of business (rental of horses)
    should be horsewhipped (excuse the expression) for the ill treatment
    they give the animals that earn them their $.  
    
    A high withered horse that is ridden English (or Hunt seat as it's
    now called), should be properly fitted to a cutback hunt saddle.
    Cutback from the withers so no "gullet" area is over them.  Not
    sure if most of the hunt seat saddles come that way now or not.
    Been a long time since I've ridden that way.  I am one of those
    who prefers Western riding on the trails - just the way I like it
    is all.  Have ridden both and, in fact, when I had an injured knee
    a few years back (from pushing a car when stuck on ice), I did a
    lot of English (Hunt seat) riding on the trails as the posting to
    the trot helped strengthen my knee during therapy.  
    
    Love to watch a good horse and rider perform no matter what the
    class and riding style.  My own horse who has been ridden western
    and hunt seat is now being ridden saddleseat by a young girl who
    has leased her from me.  
    
    Happy Trails,
    (No matter what style saddle as long as it fits both your horse
     and you)
    Pat
    
    
     

    I just went through a long process in trying to find a dressage
    saddle to fit my 15h Morgan.  I started with a Courbette in the
    widest tree it came it (32 cm - don't ask how they measure this
    cause I haven't been able to figure it out).  Then I went to a County
    Competitor with their widest tree (#4) which fit a little better.
    
    I also got a catalog from the company with 7 tree widths and was
    tempted, even called and talked to them.  However, they will not
    let you return a special order saddle even though the catalog says
    they guarantee the fit.  I wanted long billets which is a special
    order and I wasn't willing to take a chance.  So I started trying
    saddles of people I knew.  I finally found one that fit my horse
    - a Stalker Raven (copy of Barnsby Raven but the Stalker has a wider
    tree and more padding under the cantle).  A friend had gotten one
    for her 16+h Hannoverian and it fit my horse perfectly.
    
    If you do go looking for a saddle, try those of other people first.
    If you have to order one, make sure they'll take it back if it doesn't
    fit (if you haven't been able to try one in the same width) regardless
    of what features it has.  That's the one thing that turned me off
    with the "7 tree widths company" (can't remember their name!).
    
    						Jan

    Having just gotten a new horse, I have been looking to get a new
    English saddle but have just about had heart failure at the prices.
    I have been looking around for the last three months and have narrowed
    my choice down to either a Barnsby Pegasus or a Kilm Kansas.  Both
    of these saddles are close contact with cut-back heads and a fairly
    deep seat for eventing and general riding.  The problem is deciding
    on wether on not to get it now or wait until spring as the horse
    I am going to use it on is only 3 and still growing.  If I get the
    saddle now and make a $600.00 or more investment will I still be
    able to use the saddle next year or the year after without getting
    major work done to restuff the panels? I would rather wait and get
    it later than get one now and have to get it refitted.  Anyone out
    there have any ideas?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Pat Leech

    What type of riding do you plan on doing? Why did you want
    the cut-back head?  Your horse will fill out more as he/she
    gets older, but that should not make a difference on you
    choice of saddle now - just don't get something with too
    narrow of a tree which could pinch the horse's back as
    it widens (when the horse fills out).  What kind of horse is
    it and does it have very prominent withers?  Have you considered
    buying a used saddle?  The horse is not going to change
    drastically between now and the spring, but you can bet that
    saddle prices will - they usually go up after Christmas.

    My filly is a three year old TB with very prominent withers.  She
    is not thin just has high withers.  The reason that I want to get
    a new saddle is that I have never had anything other than used ones
    and now I can afford to get a new one that really fits both me and
    my horse right without having to use a variety of diffent pads to
    keep from having a sore-backed horse.  The type of riding that I
    want to do is general trails for right now until I get more miles
    on her and eventually to show her as a hunter.  I broke her in June
    of this year and we are still working on balance and flexibility.
    The saddles that I do have are a Western show saddle for the QH
    gelding that I am riding for another man and a WWI officers cavalry
    saddle that I used to use for endurance riding on another horse
    that I had in when I was in college.  Neither of these fits her
    very well or would be of use in the long run when I want to start
    showing her.  
    
    
    Thanks 
    
    Pat Leech   

    Sounds like you should find an all purpose type saddle,
    something like the Stubben Siegfried.  If you think
    you'll be doing more jumping than dressage, you should
    find one that says it's 'jumping tendancy' or vice versa
    if you want to do more flat work.  You could also consider
    the new Ulster or Wintec saddles that are made out of
    man-made materials - I've ridden in one and they are pretty
    comfortable, but the horse I had at the time had a wide
    back, and the tree was too narrow for him.  I still think
    you can get a good deal on a used english saddle - some
    sort of hunt seat or all purpose saddle, if regular saddles
    seem to sit too low on her withers, then look into the cut-back
    type.  
    
    I know of a tack shop that has the Stubben Siegfried for $560
    the VSD Siegfried for $560, the Courbette Stylist II for $499,
    the Crosby Prix Des Nations Models for $469 - $510, and the
    CRUMP Prix De Saute for $475.  (these are for new saddles,
    I'm not sure if the prices have gone up since the publishing of
    the catalog I have)

    I feel it is a 50/50 street.  I am sure the prices will go up in
    the Spring.  When haven't they.  However, when I bought my new saddle,
    took about a year, I worked very hard at getting a fit for my horse
    as well as myself.  If my horse wasn't mature at the time I might
    now have a problem.
    
    It realy is a 50/50 street and saddles are not things that you buy
    every day.
    
    GOOD LUCK
    

    I am looking for some help in how to pick out my first saddle. 
    I would like to find a used english saddle and have no idea where
    to begin.
    
    Over the years I have worked with friends and acquaintances
    horse-sitting and working their horses.  I now work at a stable
    and have an opportunity to ride.  I would like to own my own
    saddle, but I don't own my own horse and don't think anytime 
    in the near future I would either (not financially).  I don't 
    think I'll ever lose my love or horses or love of riding (at
    least its lasted since I was a kid riding my next door neighbors
    horse, Casper!)  Anyway, I need some help in figuring out where
    to start......
    I'm sure its alot easier if you know the size of the horse you'll
    be riding, I don't since there are a couple that I may ride.
    Is there any best way to pick a saddle not knowing exactly what
    size the horse is?  What type of saddle would be best for a 
    first saddle, not necessarily too expensive a variety?  How
    do you know what size?   How much can I expect to pay/or should
    spend on a first saddle?  
    
    I am willing to pay for a good saddle, but I need to know that
    I have taken the right things into consideration first.
    
    I look forward to any tips/help you can give!  
    
    Next note I'll probably be writing is........ anybody have a 
    good used saddle!  
    
    Nancy...... "the new kid on the block"
    

    Nancy,
    One first has to decide what type of riding you will be doing.
    English or Western isn't specific enough. If you wish to jump or
    do dressage the saddle must be designed for it. If you ride english
    and may do both or just trail ride an all purpose or event saddle
    might be a good choice. If you ride western a stock seat or balanced-
    ride type would be good for general riding over a barrel racing
    saddle. As for size....a medium width tree would cover the greatest
    variety of horses from the horses point of veiw. As far as the people
    size that would be determined by the size of you. On average most
    women fit a 17 inch seat in english and a 15 inch seat in western.
    A trip to a tack shop would help to determine the correct size.
    My 2 cents,
    Sandy 
    P.S. I own 8 saddles for 3 horses just to cover all the different
    things I do with them.
    

    Hi Nancy,
    
    Well, I would say first what type of riding you plan on doing. Trails,
    hunt seat, jumping, dressage?
    
    Saddles for trail riding, jumping and hunting are basically the
    same. Dressage saddles are a bit different. There are also all-
    purpose saddles which can be used for all of the above.
    
    It can be confusing, but if you've ridden in a saddle you particularly
    like, try to find out what it was. Also the size of the saddle is
    something you need to know. By size, I mean in relation to the seat
    size. The rule of thumb is when you are sitting in the saddle, you
    should be able to get four fingers behind your but and the cantle
    of saddle. (cantle is the back, pommel is the front).
    
    When it comes to fitting the horse, if you are going to be riding
    different horses, that is tough. I have always been lucky when it
    comes to my saddles fitting many different horses. Coincidentally,
    my saddles are wide enough in the tree to fit most backs without
    pinching the horse on the sides of his back or through the shoulders.
    
    My advice is try different saddles and work from there. I do have
    2 saddles for sale, you might see them in the topics listing in
    this notes file under tack/equipment for sale. (it's one of the
    latest entries) If you are interested give me a call or send mail.
    
    Anyway, good luck!
    
    Debbie
    
    
    

   I knew I forgot something, I love jumping but think I may do less
    of that and more hunt seat, maybe learn dressage eventually.  I
    
   realize serious dressage is alot of work.  I have ridden on saddles
    where the flap in front of your lower leg is swede, which I liked,
    but I'm sure that wouldn't be any specific type of saddle, it would
    be an option on a saddle.
    I probably would do minimum trail riding, though I enjoy it highly,
    no better way to unwind on a spring day!
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    I suggest you look for something 'all-purpose'. Crosby has a nice
    all-purpose saddle, Prix de Nations I think, but am not sure. It
    does not have a suede knee roll, but this type of feature is not
    necessary and (I think) is a pain to keep looking nice.
    
    The Prix de Nations does have a small knee roll in front, but you
    will find that is all you need, especially for Dressage. Of course
    there are other saddles out there to fit your needs. Go to a reputable
    tack store and ask questions, they are always happy to give advice.
    The Equestrian Shop on rt. 114 in North Andover MA is a good tack
    store. Good luck!
    
    Debbie

    
    ... the Crosby Prix De Nations is a flat jumping saddle.  My Crosby
    Mark IV is an all purpose.  I don't think Crosby makes the Mark IV any
    more but I'm sure there's another model on the MARK line.
    
    Dani
    

    I went through this a couple years ago, with the purchase of my
    first horse.  I was lucky in that I only had one horse to fit, but
    the rest is tough.  My riding instructor, at the time, and a couple
    people on my college riding team suggested the Crosby Prix de Saute
    close- contact saddle.  It is a reasonable price new (at the time,
    though I'm sure prices have risen as its popularity has risen) and
    a comfortable ride.  I was lucky enough to find a used one which
    has held up very well for the past 2 1/2 years.  I tried several,
    including the Prix de Nations and the Mark IV, and found the Prix
    de Saute the most comfortable.  Even on long rides, it is still
    the most comfortable english saddle I ridden in.
    

    I agree with .6. I have a Prix de Saute by Crump and an Apollo by
    Hartley. Both very similar. I like them equally. The Appollo is
    at *least* ten years old and still going strong.
    
    -M-
    

	 I checked for other notes that covered this topic, but couldn't
     find one that really covered my question, so here goes...

	 How do  you  folks  out there in note-land determine whether or
     not  your  (dressage  or jumpiing) saddle *really* fits your horse?
     Where  do you place it in relation to his withers? How many fingers
     fit  where?  How  do  you know if it's pinching (at the withers) or
     not?

	 I'm in  the  position  now of having 2 saddles that fit me, but
     I've  come to realize that I'm not really sure how well they fit my
     horse, or even how to really determine if they fit.


    kathy

    Trying to remember how my instructor explained it....With the saddle
    placed on the horses back such that the billet straps hang above the
    normal girth position for the horse, the cantle should be 1 inch higher
    than the pommel, and the width of the gullet should prevent the saddle
    from rubbing the wither or pinching it. If this doesn't explain it,
    Centered Riding by Sally Swift has a couple good pictures and a nice
    explaination.
    Sandy
    

    
    Besides checking for sore spots, I made a check on my saddles fit
    by not using a pad. Ride hard for a few minutes and remove the saddle.
    Check for swet marks. Were it's wet says these are pressure pionts.
    Were it's dry means no contact or very little. The back should be
    evenly wet from the saddle coming in contact everywhere but the
    withers down thru the backbone. This way you know the saddle is
    not resting in any one particular place, but is supported evenly.
    
    Dave'
    

	How about sprinking talcum powder on your horse's back and tack
	up (w/o pad, but with girth)?  You could probably get on, too.
	When you untack your saddle should have talcum power where it
	connected with your critter's back....


					-Caroline

    How do you fit a saddle to the rider?  I've seen ads for saddles I'd
    like to look at but I wouldn't want to travel there if they wouldn't
    be close.  Is there some comparision between pant size and saddle size
    which would put me close to the right size? Also, how do you know what
    size a saddle is, I have a couple and there's nothing on the saddles
    to tell me. (I'd be interested in knowing for both english and western,
    childrens sizes too.)
    Thanks for any info,
    Sharon

    
    
    Fitting a saddle to a rider is something of a hit and miss experiment.
    As far as I know, there is no correlation between pants size and saddle
    size.  
    
    To check an English saddle to see what size seat it has, measure from 
    the nail head on either side of the pommel to the middle of the cantle.  
    This size in inchs is the seat size. Most adults have saddles from 16
    to 18 inchs in size with some large men needing a 19 inch seat.  The 
    depth of the seat also is a cosideration as most people need a larger 
    saddle size in a deep seated dressage saddle than for, say, a Pre 
    de Nations jumping saddle that is almost flat.  Childrens saddles are 
    usually sized from 14 to 16 inchs.  A well fitting English saddle has
    four fingers worth of space between the top of the cantle and the back
    of the riders seat. 
    
    Western saddles ar measured in the same way as English saddles from the
    front nail head to the front edge of the cantle.  Most adult Western
    sadlles are 15 to 16 inchs in size with several different types of
    seats ranging from the equitation to those used for roping and cutting.
    Again, the size of saddle needed depends on the type of seat it has.
    
    The Millers catalog has a good discription of how to fit a saddle in
    the ordering section. 
    
    Pat     

    i checked my saddle the last time i rode and found that without
    weight in the saddle, I can fit 4 fingers between the withers and
    the pommel tightly.  however, with my weight in the saddle, this
    decreases to about half the distance.  would that be right?
    
    jan
    

    There is a good article in the newest  The Northeast Equine Journal
    on saddle fitting. It seems to explain things pretty clearly, in
    laymans terms.
    

    In selecting an English saddle, you would measure the seat from one of
    the studs in the front to the middle of the cantle in back.  Mostly
    you will see a lot of 16" to 17" seats.  Many times a store can 
    order the larger 18" seats if required.  
    
    The tree widths can be measured on the horse by taking a coat hanger,
    or simular type wire and bending it over the horse's withers.  Then 
    take the wire with you to the saddle shops and place it under the 
    gullet of saddles you are interested in.  That way, you will not need
    to go back and forth to the shop trying different saddles just to find
    one to fit your horse.  
    
    The trees for English saddles run narrow, medium and wide. 
    Manufacturers may differ in their estimates of what is narrow, med. and
    wide.  Western Saddles go by Semi-Quarter Horse (narrow), Quarter Horse
    (medium) and Arabian (wide).
    
    When fitting an English saddle to yourself, sit in it and place one
    hand in front and one hand behind you.  If your left is placed in 
    front with the thumb towards your crotch, your pinky should just be
    at the edge of the pommel.  Your right hand in back, with your thumb 
    to the outside should just reach the top/back of the cantle.  (Make
    sure that you are sitting in the center of the saddle when doing this).
    
    I am helping a friend find a saddle for her and her new horse, so I 
    have been doing quite a bit of research into the subject.  Hope this
    helps others.   Marti
             

    Everyone in our barn uses Crosy Prix de Nations or similar saddles.
    My saddle fits my mare perfectly and I don't need extra pads.
    However, if I didn't use the slotted pad I'm sure mine would fly
    off too. Try a slotted pad or one with velco keepers.
    
    As for extra pads, we have two horses with very high withers that
    need either two saddle pads or a banjo pads. I think you mentioned that
    you tried a fleece one, which is what most use to show. You can arrange
    them so that they're not that noticeable.
    
    I don't agree that most close contact saddles require extra padding, if
    the saddle fits properly. I have used them for years on many different
    horses, more often than not, without extra padding.

    I ride on the Crosby Mark VI (which I love) and find I have the
    same problem with the pads.  I tried the Banjo/lolly-pop pad, and
    as mentioned before, it doesn't really look very good.  I have 
    tried the slotted pads and can't stand it!  The extra fabric hangs
    behind the saddle so that it is not very neat looking either.  I 
    finally took the plunge and bought the 30.00 Cambridge lift-back
    fleece pad.  This is the pad to go with!  The foam insert is enclosed
    in the fleece and the pad is held securely in place by nylon straps
    that the billet straps hook through.  I will use the slotted pad (which
    tends to slip around towards the back of the saddle) for schooling and
    trail riding.  I am saving the Cambridge for the shows, since it looks
    and preforms the best of any I have yet to try.  
    
    I will probably upgrade my slotted pad to the Cambridge as I feel more
    confidence in  it staying put.  It is worth the investment.  I bought
    mine at Stateline Tack Shop for those interested.
    
    Marti

    I have also gone the route with trying all types of pads.  I have
    a Beval Devon saddle with not much padding, and have to have a
    bounce pad of some sort or I am really sitting rocked back, with
    my leg poking out in front of me.  I prefer a pocket pad (is
    this what you are calling "slotted"?  It has a "pocket" that
    the saddle slips into so that velcro tabs or girth holders
    aren't required in order to keep the pad in place.)  which
    is also a lift-back - so it has the removable foam insert
    for the back of the pad.  I have been known to stuff TWO pieces
    of foam in there.  As long as you get on the horse, and check
    to be sure it is securely in the middle, it should stay there,
    I have found.
    
    I also bought one of the new Miller's pads, and haven't had it
    fly off, but it does poke out a bit after I have been riding awhile.
    I like it because it doesn't smoosh like the foam.
    
    Crosby has a new saddle, the EQuilibrium, that is marketed as
    not requiring lift-back pads.  Of course, it's a big investment
    to buy a whole new saddle.  If you really want to solve your
    problem permanently without a new saddle, perhaps you should
    seriously check into having your saddle re-stuffed.  I haven't
    ever done this, so don't know cost or other variables (like if
    it works).
    
    Jennie

    I already looked at the notes on saddles....but....
    since my questions were not answered.....I need your
    help.......
    
    In order for me (& horsey, of course!) to be able to
    enter the "Hunter under Saddle" classes in the spring,
    I need, of course, an "English style" saddle.
    However, as I ride Western, I haven't a clue on what
    to get. (I can clean 'em, but I can't go out and pick one!:-))
    (I am familiar with a Dressage saddle, so I don't confuse
    that, thank heavens!) 
    I know that I need a "special"? type because I have a
    Quarterhorse.  I believe the term is "Wide-panelled?"
    But thats where I'm stumped....What does W-P mean?
    And, how do you tell if it's a wide-panel saddle?  And.....  
    How do you fit a saddle to yourself?  Your Horse?
    What "Style", "Kind" or "Brand" should I consider?  Avoid?
    Whats "cutback?" "Leathers" are the stirrup straps? 
    I want to consider a used saddle, to save $$$, but I certainly
    cannot look without knowing what I'm looking for.   I do know
    some saddles are poor quality leather, made in India or Argentina,
    and that Crosby and Stubben are good names, but that's it.
    
    Please help......this saddle is for me as a Xmas present.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Lynne (DTN 281-5770 or  @BOO or BOOVX1::MANDILE)
          (A "show n tell" session would be ideal...)   
    
    

    Wide-panelled in english= Quarterhorse bars in western. Many English
    saddles are built with TB in mind. On a QH they slide towards the rear
    because they are too narrow, also pinch the horses shoulders. I found
    while shopping for a saddle for a QH that the saddle shops will steer
    you towards the brands that will fit a QH properly. Even if you plan to
    buy a used saddle now, use the shops to find the brands which will
    work. To further confuse things, some manufacturers use several
    different width trees, generally measured in millimeters. Again I have
    found the shop owners to be very helpful in this regard. Most will give
    you a money back guarentee if you do not get it dirty in any way while
    trying it on your horse. Even without stirrups you can get a good idea
    if a saddle is going to work.
    Sandy
    

A cutback saddle is one where the pommel has been 'cut back' so that it does
not contact the withers.  You can tell if a saddle has a cut-back pommel by 
looking from the top.  If, as you sit in the saddle and look down at the pommel,
the pommel has a 'opening' shaped like a 'U' that is open towards the 
neck/withers, then it is cutback.  Passier is one brand that has a cut-back
pommel.  Cut-back pommels are most necessary on a high-withered horse.

If your horse has mutton-withers, like a lot of muscular quarter horses do, 
you probably do not need the cut-back pommel.  What you would probably need is 
a wide tree.  (I think this is another name for wide-panelled).  It just means
that the saddle is built a little broader so it won't pinch at the withers.

Leathers are the straps that attach the stirrups to the saddle.

Another thing you may want to worry about is how much knee roll you want.  Do 
you want a flat saddle (no knee roll) or one that has a little something there, 
or one with a big knee roll.  Big knee rolls are pretty much passe in the show
scene.  If you are going to jump, at least a little bit of a knee roll might
help you feel more secure when you start.  Also, I think suede on the knee
roll area is 'out'.

To fit the saddle, you want to be able to fit (I think) 2-3 fingers into the 
gullet of the saddle when it is on the horse's back.  When you sit in the 
saddle, it should not touch the withers. You may want to ride in a potential
purchase to see if any 'hot spots'  (uneven sweat marks) develop - thes may 
indicate that the saddle does not fit correctly in that area.

Sometimes your shape will influence the brand of saddle you purchase. I would
love to have a Crosby (I like the styles) but the seats on the Crosbys are too 
short. An 18" Crosby does not fit like an 18" Passier.  You should be able to 
sit in the saddle and pretty much have a palm's width between your butt and the 
end of the cantle.  The flaps should be of a size so that your knees don't hang
off the front.

Other good names : Passier (not cheap, but you might be able to find a used one
for a reasonable price), Smith-Worthington and County (not sure what they have
for non-dressage saddles)

Probably the best thing to do is to go to a place that has a wide selection and 
hopefully knowledgeable sales folks.  Describe your horse.  Sit in a whole
bunch of saddles, just to try them out and see how they fit you, to determine
what size you need.  You can tell a lot about how comfortable the saddle will be
just by sittin in it at the store.  If you find one you like, try it on your 
horse. See how it sits on him.  Sit and ride in it on your horse.  Once you 
decide what you want, then you can start looking around for the best price for
it.

    
    You might find a trip to Barbara Steven's at the Horsemen's Exchange
    worth the time. She sells used equipment including saddles on
    consignment. If you explain what your situation, she'll stear you in
    the right directions.
    
    Horseman's Exchange - Wayland MA
    508-358-4662
    
    Call in the afternoon
    
    Nancy
    

    Just another recommendation for Barbara Stevens. 
    
    I bought a used saddle from her about six years ago, and am still
    using it today.  She does an excellent job of listening to what you
    plan to use the saddle for and what your riding style is and helps you
    find a saddle that fits your needs.  She'll help you fit the saddle to 
    both your horse and you.  When I bought my saddle, I was deciding 
    between two different used saddles she had that I thought I liked, 
    and she let me take them both home and ride in them for a week to
    evaluate them.  You can also be confident in the quality of the 
    used saddles she sells; she repairs and refurbishes them herself and
    is very careful to ensure the used saddles she sells are in good
    condition.   Mine has held up very well.
    
    Cheryl

    We have an American Saddlebred that we ride English.  She is fairly
    high-withered and has a very long and cylindrical body shape.  My
    problem is that her saddle always slides away from her withers during
    riding.  This makes everything loosen up and the saddle slips from side
    to side until you dismount and retighten the girth.
    
    Should I give up and start with the saddle positioned further back?  I
    don't like this solution because she is so round that you have to
    tighten the girth too much in order to keep the saddle from slipping.
    
    Maybe more padding would help.  Maybe a different girth?  We use a
    nylon string girth now.
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    
    John Wood
    DTN 341-2622
    GRANMA::JWOOD
                 

	Have you tried using a brestplate?  I'd bet it would stabilize
    the saddle.

				-Caroline

    no, I meant to ask about a breastplate among the alternatives... 

    
    
    Since you are riding a Saddlebred, are you using a cutback show saddle
    (Lane Fox tree)? 
    
    These are about the only kind of saddles that don't roll around much 
    on the typically built Saddlebred.

    Saddle sliding back, generally indicates that the tree is not wide
    enough. A different saddle, or restuffing of the panels is in order.
    My horse changed so much from her fitness program that her saddle that
    fit perfectly at the beginning, had to have one half inch of padding
    taken out of each panel to keep it from sliding back. A thicker pad
    would only make it worse. Using a breaststrap would hold it in place,
    but would not make the horse comfortable. Pinched shoulders are not
    fun.
    Sandy
    

    Thanks for the tree info and the cutback show saddle idea.  We use an
    all purpose with a regular tree.  I'm going to check to see which of
    our saddles has the widest tree.  If they are all the same, I'll look
    into a cutback.  (what is a Lane Fox tree??? - it sounds expensive).
    I saw some cutback show saddles advertised that are around $ 150. 
    Would these work?
    
    I guess I shouldn't go for a breastplate until I'm sure that she has a
    properly fitted saddle. What is involved in restuffing the panels?  Is
    this amateur work?  It sounds like this should be a last resort 
    solution.
    
    Obviously, I could use more data on saddlebreds.  To me, she's just a
    hard trot to sit... : ) ... Thanks for the help...
    
    John Wood
  

    
    
    A Lane Fox tree cutback is what you see most saddlebreds and
    'saddleseat' type Morgans and Arabs being ridden with. 
    
    The flaps drop straight down from the pommel (and the pommel is 
    cut back about 4 inches or so to give room for the withers).  The
    saddle tends to be VERY flat.  And tends to fit horses with high
    withers and very flat, round backs (like many saddlebreds, Arabs and 
    Morgans).
    
    Lots of catelogs offer English made cutback show saddles as well as
    Argentine made cutback saddles.  
    
    You might look around for a used one to try on your horse.

    You may or may not realize that Lane Fox style saddles are designed for
    show, primarily.  Their center (where your weight will end up) is very
    far back, to allow the panel to be cut at a straignt or even rear-ward
    angle.  This allows maximum visibility of the horse's front end and
    high action.  This is their purpose.  They are not designed for
    pleasure riding / trail riding.  In this type of saddle your weight is
    directly over the weakest part of the horse's back - not where you want
    it to be if you're riding for any length of time.
    
    If you find that you need a cutback saddle, you can find them in other
    styles as well as Lane Fox.  The Lane Fox will visually appear to be
    more extremely cut back, but it's not really cut back any more than
    a cut-back dressage or forward seat saddle.  On a dressage or forward
    seat saddle, the points of the tree are usually slanted, whereas on a
    Lane Fox they are not.
    
    
    -ellie

    
    
    RE: -1  
    
    Well, not really. 
    
    Depends on the horse and the saddle.  My Crump has the deepest part of
    the seat about 6 inches behind the pommel. 
    
    I had ridden many hours a day on many horses for over 15 years on that
    saddle and have not created a sore back with it yet. 
    
    And I have many friends who ride many hours and miles in their cut back
    saddles.
    
    I owned a mare for years whose back conformation was such that the only
    saddle that really fit and stayed in place was the cutback show saddle. 
    Unfortunately she really moved like a hunter and showed in those
    classes.  All the dressage and forward seat saddles we tried never did
    work (and her sire was built the same way).
    
    Mary Jo

    I am trying out a new saddle to see if it fits my horse.  The saddle
    is a Crosby Lexington TC (regular tree) and my horse could be
    considered an average Quarter Horse.  I have the same question that 
    note 63.33 asked, but it was never answered.  That is.. With the
    saddle on I can fit almost 4 fingers under the pommel.  With me in it, 
    I can get about 2-3 fingers.  Does this mean it fits?  Or does it
    sound like it's too narrow?  
    
    I will be using it to show in Hunter Under Saddle, Equitation and
    maybe down the road Hunter Hack.
    
    Thanks,
    Sherry

    There's a school of thought that English saddles should be used without
    a pad.  The idea is to keep anything from touching the horse's spine. 
    By not using a pad, you place all of the pressure on the muscles on
    wither side of the spine, since English saddles are designed to have
    padding on each side, and a space down the middle of the underside of
    the saddle that has no contact with the horse.  A pad eliminates this
    design benefit to some extent.  This idea was popularized in this
    country some years ago by the book "Saddlery", by E. Hartley Edwards,
    and I believe it has been or was the standard method in the British
    Isles.  This practice was common in hunter circles fo some time.
    
    An appealing benefit of pads, of course, is that they are easier to
    clean than your saddle!
    
    -ellie

    re: last
    
    I was taught to pull the pad up slightly so that it doesn't touch the
    horses spine, leaving a tunnel along the spine.  That way you keep the
    support where it belongs, on the muscles on either side of the spine,
    but protect the saddle and also cushion your horses back muscles. 
    After a hard workout, the horses back will be wet where the saddle was
    lying, but will have a dry stripe down the center.
    
    re:  a couple back
    
    When you say the cantle should be 1" higher than the pommel, are you
    referring to a specific style of riding?  In dressage, the cantle and
    pommel should be level.

    Again I think it depends on the style of riding for if I remember
    correctly the cantle and pommel are even as well when you ride saddle
    seat.
    
    Kathie
    

    I borrowed a cutback from a friend who is willing to sell it to me. 
    The fit is much different than a regular forward seat in that it sits
    further back ( and the pommel and cantle are level with each other ).
    The girth is in the normal place.  It does not slide back or slip side-
    to-side.  It seems to me to do what I'm looking for, but I would like
    help in that I am not sure what, if anything more, to look for in
    fitting the saddle.  The saddle is well used ( old, scratched, etc ),
    but seems completely functional.  I can't remember the name, but it was
    made in England.  The owner calls it a dressage saddle.
    
    The saddle also has only two billet straps ( by design ) on each side. 
    The straps are extra long and the girth, itself, is very short.  Does
    this sound familiar to anyone?
    
    Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    
    John Wood

    I'm not sure if this is the right place for this or not... But, does
    anyone have any experience with Tony Cooper as a saddlemaker? If so,
    I'd be very interested in finding out what your experience was... 
    
    I've been looking for a saddle for at least a year now, with very bad
    luck. If I find one that fits my horse, its generally too wide for me
    and if it fits me, the tree seems to be too narrow for my horse.
    Someone mentioned that Tony Cooper (Royalston, MA?) will custom make a
    saddle so I figured I'd check into it, but I wanted to find out if
    anyone else has worked with him? I've been looking for a dressage
    saddle...
    
    Please feel free to either reply here, or send me mail at
    ASD::MCCROSSAN.
    
    Thanks very much in advance!
    
    Regards,
    
    Linda

NOTES FROM LAST SATURDAY'S SADDLE FITTING SEMINAR AT MEADOW RIDGE FARM
ESSEX, MASSACHUSETTS
	 
         Saturday I attended a very educational presentation
         on saddle fitting by Jan Jacobson, who represents a
         saddle distributor, Performance Saddlery.  It was
         free - sponsored by Ipswich Country Tack shop to
         promote the sale of saddles.

         My bad news was that I had a hard time finding the
         session (being quite unfamiliar with the North
         Shore) and missed the first hour of Jan's
         presentation - most of her lecture.  The good news
         is that I still learned a lot from the remaining
         two hours of analyzing the fit of different saddles
         on real horses.

	 Since I was going to summarize for myself what I
	 learned there, I thought, why not just enter it in
         the notesfile as well?  So, here are the topics
         that made an impression on me:

LOCATING THE SHOULDER BLADE
         No easy way to describe this online - you have to 
         feel it.

POSITIONING THE SADDLE
         Place the saddle on the horse's back such that the
         horse has unobstructed movement of its shoulder
         blades.
	 
         First, place the saddle in the "notch" where we all
         intuitively and habitually place the saddle.  Then
         locate the shoulder blade and move the saddle
         behind it into the next "notch."  The saddle will
         not look like it's in the right place because we
         are all accustomed to seeing the saddle way up on
         the horse's wither.

	 (I was experimenting placing my saddle this way
	 last summer.  If you do this, anticipate that some
	 other riders may express anxiety or disapproval.)

POSITIONING THE GIRTH
         Although the saddle will be further back than
         you're used to, you must still position the girth
         in the "standard" position.  That means the girth
         will appear to slant forward at the bottom.  If you
         don't, the girth will work its way there anyway and
         possibly cause irritation from pushing the hair
         against the direction of growth.

HOW TO MAKE A WITHER TRACING
         First, place the saddle in the desired position on
         the horse's back.  Then, mark the horse's coat to
         show where the front edge of the  saddle lies. 
         (Jan dipped her finger in water and "drew" a wet
         mark on the horse's coat to mark the front edge of
         the saddle.  Third, remove the saddle, place a
         Flexi-Curve (sp?) device (available at office
         supply stores, or, e.g., Charrette) over the
         withers one inch BEHIND your mark, and carefully
         mold the flexible curve to the horse's withers.
         After that, simply trace the curve onto a sturdy
         piece of paper.  A manila folder works well.
	 
HOW TO USE A WITHER TRACING
         Now you can take the wither tracing to a tack shop,
         lay it down on the floor, and set the saddle on its
         front edge on top of the tracing.  Then just
         sighting down the panels will give you a good
         preliminary idea of how well the saddle matches
         your horse's withers.
	 
EVALUATING FIT AT THE WITHERS
	 If you can fit more than three fingers between the
	 pommel and the withers, the saddle is too narrow
	 and will dig into the horse's shoulders.
	 
WHAT TREE WIDTH WILL FIT THE GREATEST NUMBER OF HORSES?
         (I thought I might get in trouble when I asked this
         question.) Jan's answer was that medium-wide would
         probably fit the greatest number of
         non-Thoroughbred horses. And that it is be better
         to use a saddle that is somewhat too wide (and pad
         it) than to use a saddle that is too narrow.  She
         also suggested that I do wither tracings of the
         horses I typically ride in order to find out what
         size and shape backs they tend to have.
	 
THE COMFORT TWIST FOR WOMEN
         I finally got to sit on the Comfort saddle which is
         designed to correctly support women's wider,
         shallower pelvises.  (It supports your weight on
         your seat bones, therefore not on your pubic bone.) 
         It seemed promising. Actually, this was the topic
         that drew me to attend the seminar, but I didn't
         learn much more about this.  I guess I had already
         gathered most of the available facts from articles
         I had already read.

	 I'd love to hear feedback from anyone in the
	 notesfile who has actually used the Comfort saddle.

CONCLUDING THOUGHTS
	 About a year ago I had read various articles about
	 saddle fitting, and it was so hard to visualize
	 that I concluded that there was no way for someone
	 like me to understand the principles involved.  I
	 decided the only people who could ever master the
	 topic were people who had access to lots of
	 different saddles and lots of different horses,
	 like stable managers, riding instructors, tack shop
	 owners, and saddle designers.  Jan's seminar
	 gave me the chance to pick up a lot of this
	 knowledge that I didn't think I'd ever be in a
	 position to learn.  She has obviously spent a great
	 deal of time and effort and thought gaining her
	 expertise.

         If you hear of Jan Jacobson's presentation being
         given in your area, I certainly recommend it.
         	 

This is a correction to and replacement for the reply I posted in .65.

re .33, .51

>    I am trying out a new saddle to see if it fits my horse.  The saddle
>    is a Crosby Lexington TC (regular tree) and my horse could be
>    considered an average Quarter Horse.  I have the same question that 
>    note 63.33 asked, but it was never answered.  That is.. With the
>    saddle on I can fit almost 4 fingers under the pommel.  With me in it, 
>    I can get about 2-3 fingers.  Does this mean it fits?  Or does it
>    sound like it's too narrow?  
    
I was just reviewing all these notes and replies, and decided to 
give my opinion about the unanswered question in .33 and .51.

County Saddlery has an educational brochure that's very informative.
It says, "...there should be roughly two fingers clearance between
the pommel and the horse's withers...Clearance should be measured
with the saddle girthed and preferably with the riders weight in it."

Both of the saddles in .33 and .51 may still be too narrow, 
because, with no weight in the saddle, I could get four fingers under 
the pommel of saddle tree that showed several other signs of 
being too narrow:  it left a significant dry area on the saddle pad; 
the pommel was higher than the cantle.

In general, I would expect a regular width English saddle tree to be
too narrow for most Quarter Horses.  Regular or medium width
English saddles (non-saddleseat, that is) seem to be designed for 
the average Thoroughbred back.

    Would anyone happen to know if a 30.5 cm saddle is a narrow, medium or
    wide tree?
    
    Thanks,
    
    	JB

    I *think* that would be a narrow tree. I once owned a Courbette
    dressage saddle. When I was selecting it, I debated between a 32 and
    34 cm tree. I bought the 34 and it was still too narrow. I went to a
    wider tree. So, to me a 30.5 cm tree sounds pretty narrow.
    
    Since my statement represent an opinion, I'd suggest that you call a
    saddle maker or a knowledgeable tack shop owner.

  Depends on how they measured it. Every manufacturer measures a little 
  differently. I mail ordered an extra-wide tree Prix De Saute that
  measured less wide than the medium tree Crosby I had. So it went back.
  (It had "Extra Wide" stamped on it, so it wasn't the wrong saddle.)

  Only way to know for sure if it will fit is to put it on the horse. 
  Next best thing is to make a template of your horses back and see if 
  it fits the saddle. I think I have the instructions for making the 
  measurements on file if you're interested. 30.5 is probably not a wide 
  tree. When I was looking for wide saddles I was looking for a 32 cm 
  tree measured from point to point (allowing for the panels which vary 
  in thickness).

  There aren't many tack shops around here that really understand saddle
  fitting. So you need to know what you want and carry a template with
  you everywhere. 

I've been shopping for a dressage saddle lately.  If there's one thing
I've learned, it's that you've got to ride in the style you'll buy,
and *in the right seat size*!  A whole world opened up for me once
I started trying various models in 16 1/2" ! (or at most 17")--
suddenly it's a lot easier to straighten the horse and myself!
I've been working with a great tack shop that lets you take out
saddles for trial (or virtually buy them and return them).

I'm hoping some of you can help me with comparisons to the County
Competitor.  I've ridden in a couple of these, and generally like
them best so far.  As you may know, County has a lot of options
on their saddles, and puts out a nice catalog with saddle fitting
info, etc.  Options include 4 tree widths, two seat depths, three
flap lengths, three flap positions, etc.  

Most folks get the Competitor with the deep seat, called the "High
School" (tm) seat.  I like it a lot, but I bump the pommel a little
when rising-- I'm not sure whether it'll be annoying in the long run.
(I don't bump the pommel in my instructor's bigger/older Competitor,
but then, that one is really different from what i'd be ordering).
  
The other seat that County makes is supposedly about 1" less deep.
The problem is that I might not be able to get one of these to try out
because it's a special order.  It is probably the same or very similar 
to the seat that they use on the Despri (County's adjustable-flap 
"all purpose").  I'm not interested in buying the Despri, but I can
probably get one to try from the tack shop.   But i'm not sure that
would help me decide whether I'd like that seat on the Competitor.

So here are my questions:

  - has anyone else out there ridden in both the deep and medium
     seat of the County Competitor? (or does anyone in US NH/MA
     have a medium seat I can sit in?)

  - are there other saddle models that you think are similar enough 
     to the County (and in the same or lower price range!)
     that you think I should be sure to try them?
  
  - any advice on the other options?  I'll probably get short
     flaps (I'm 5'1"), and most everything else standard.
     I know that I do NOT want the forward flap, but don't really
     know whether it's worth thinking about the other flap and knee
     roll options. Anyone have the "short high rolls", which they
     say "encourages thigh stretch"!?

  - my instructor wants me to try the Collegiate Jessica.  I think
     Collegiates seem 'cheap' (foam stuffed, etc). (what a snob, eh?)  
     I've heard that it's a copy of a $2K saddle-- maybe Passier Nicole? 
     I'm too cheap for that!  Comments?  (other than that I should get 
     a budget to match my taste!! ;^) )

  - I hope to try a friend's (old) Kieffer.  Any advice on their models?
      
BTW, I know the saddle must also fit the horse, but I'm not really
worried about that yet.

thanks in advance for your shared wisdom!
--carrie

    On running into the pommel, I used to do this too. I discovered I was
    overdoing the rise and once I got better at rising only as high as the
    horse pushed me I stopped running into the pommel. Fitting the horse is
    just as critical as fitting the rider, I would not spend the money for
    a County until I knew which tree to get it made on. The #4 tree fits
    most horses but you still need to know what shape wither the panels
    must fit. I have a #5 with the "high school" on order for my horse who
    has outgrown 3 saddles in the last two years! He is almost 6 so I hope
    this is the last saddle I need for him. As he widened past each tree
    size his attitude told me it was time, plus the saddles would slide
    back and tend to rock side to side. The basic Collegiate fits a narrow
    TB, that is what I used first when my horse was 3. When I sold it,
    three people turned it down because it was not wide enough for their
    horses.
    Sandy
    

    I have a question on seat size relative to seat size.  That is,
    I need to get a saddle for an 11 year old girl.  Her own seat size is
    pretty skinny.  I'd say she's about 4'10" tall with long legs.  What
    size saddle do you get for someone this size?  She's currently riding
    in a 17 1/2" Collegiate dressage saddle.
    
    thanks for your help,
    gwen
    

    I thought I was going to have the same problem, I have twin super
    skinny 13 yr olds who are using my stuff.  They actually look good
    in my 16�" dressage saddles (wintec and county).  The only problem
    is the leather length....I use real long, and they need a shorter
    length.  We've managed.
    
    BTW, if you have to buy, the wintec dressage saddle is real
    comfortable, and super affordable!

    That depends on what kind of English saddle you mean. Since you ride 
    saddleseat, I wonder if you mean a Lane Fox type saddle. Typically, the
    cutback Lane Fox saddles have a seat 4" or 5" larger than the same 
    person needs in a jumping or dressage saddle. The difference is due to
    the cutback in the head. So, if that's what you're asking and the 
    17 1/2" dressage saddle fits her, I'd say get a 22" Lane Fox.
    
    If you're asking whether the 17 1/2" dressage saddle is the right size
    for her, I can't answer you directly. It depends more on leg length
    than anything else but the size of the rider's rump has some effect.
    
    The right size dressage saddle has to be large enough that the rider's 
    kneecaps don't extend past the front of the flaps and the point of the 
    rider's hip(the L shape of the thigh bone where it enters the hip joint) 
    should be just in front of the joint where the leg flap meets the 
    seat/panels.
    
    If there's lots of room in front of the knee or behind the point of
    the hip, the saddle's too big.
    
    Similar guidelines apply to jumping and general purpose saddles. The
    angle and shape of the flap compensates for the change in stirrup length 
    and leg position. Sometimes a there is a minor difference in seat size
    between a dressage saddle and other styles but checking the legs should
    get you pretty close.
    
    John

    Thank you both!  It is a dressage saddle.  I'm the only one who
    rides in the Lane Fox saddle (and the longest standard one is 21").
    I put Jenny in the dressage saddle for a little security.  (It didn't
    work Monday night...the mare scooted sideways and poor Jenny landed
    on her butt in the mud)  Anyway, I assume that she'll want to continue
    in the dressage saddle and not switch over.  But my new Lane Fox saddle 
    from Victor Custom Tack should arrive today so we'll see.  She may decide 
    she wants to try that! (and yes!  I am so excited about my saddle.
    Victor makes beautiful equipment!  I feel truly special)
    
    gwen
    

    The twins were riding saddle seat before I moved on the street, but 
    they've decided they like the security of the dressage saddle.
    
    Enjoy your new saddle.....I loved my county when I first got it!    And
    still do.

>>    I need to get a saddle for an 11 year old girl.  Her own seat size is
>>    pretty skinny.  I'd say she's about 4'10" tall with long legs.  What
>>    size saddle do you get for someone this size?  She's currently riding
>>    in a 17 1/2" Collegiate dressage saddle.
    
    Since I'm 6'3" and a heck of alot heavier than a skinny 11 year old,
    18" does not seem so big anymore.

    Seriously though, there can't be such a size difference in saddle
    measurements for this girl to be correct in this saddle can there ?

    Bill    

She should be able to get about a hand's width between her butt and the 
end of the cantle when she sits in the saddle.  Seat size will vary with 
brand and model of the saddle. Best bet is to go sit in them. The 
*average* human takes about a 16.5-17" seat. My suggestion is not to 
buy anything you can't return, especially if she does not sit in it
at the store!


kathy

    I am shortly to be buying a new leather saddle for my horse.  She's
    15'2" and slightly *fat* (well, more than slightly in the summer but a
    little trimmer in the winter).
    
    I've been looking in all the tack shops local to me and am a little
    confused due to the wide range of choice.  I need a saddle for jumping
    as well as for general use - do I get a G.P or a jumping saddle or as
    suggested by someone, and eventing saddle (I have yet to see one)?  I
    would prefer something with a fair amount of knee rolls although maybe
    not to the extent of a jumping saddle - I don't know.
    
    I'd appreciate any advice on makes/styles etc as this part of horse
    owning is new to me.  I ought to mention I can afford up to �600.
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Liz

    Hi Liz,
    
    I know of a couple of makes that you might like to try and they are:
    
    Hawk Event - these are very popular, I had one of these for about 3
    years.  They are not stictly a jumping saddle they are a GP so don't be
    put off by the "Event" name given.  They are straight enough to do
    dressage in as well.
    
    Lovett & Rickett - These people make an "Event" saddle as well it is
    really a GP.  This saddle is quite well padded out with knee rolls.
    
    I have a Stubben Siegfreid which I have had for the last 18 months from
    new and I wouldn't swap it for anything that is more a jumping/event
    saddle, doing dressage in it is hard work! My position goes all over
    the place!
    
    Good luck with your search for a saddle, I am sure you will find one
    that you like and you feel comfortable in, its important to try out as
    many makes/styles as you possibly can and for the money which you have
    to spend you should be able to get a good one.
    
    Wendy
    

    Wendy,
    
    Thanks for the note.  I have heard an wful lot about Stubben saddles -
    from what I know they are supposed to be a rather good quality make?? 
    Are they expensive and in the higher price range (would I be able to
    afford one?  Thanks for your contribution.
    
    Liz

    Liz,
    
    You should be able to afford to buy one second hand.  They do tend to be
    heavier than say the Hawk Event.  There is no doubt about the quality
    of a Stubben saddle they are very well made.  Try one out - see what
    you think!
    
    Wendy
    

    Liz,
    
    Having a pony mare, with a British native blood in her, means
    that she has a big shoulder, and that can sometimes cause problems
    with fitting saddles.  She looks as if she should be a wide fitting,
    but the rest of her back is really only a medium.
    
    I found the new Lovette & Ricketts tree was ideal for her shape.
    It could have been made for her the way it fits.
    Although it's a dressage saddle I have opted for, I'll be getting the 
    Event when finances permit.  Trying to jump and show in a dressage
    saddle isn't easy.  The Event uses the same tree.  It's panels are 
    long enough to allow for dressage, yet there is enough knee roll 
    to give support when jumping.
    Centell sell them, so maybe you could have a look lunch time.
    
    Most days I have my dressage saddle with me, if you'd like to have a look
    give me a call.
    
    I originally had a Stubbens for her, but had my eyes opened, when
    it was pointed out to me that this didn't allow her shoulders the
    freedom to move.  It was a sad day when I had to sell it.
    
    If it helps I can recommend a couple of very good saddle fitters.
    
    Judy
    
    (P.S. My DTN is 830 2879).

    Hi,
    
    Thanks for the advice and sorry I haven't looked in here that recently. 
    I bought the saddle yesterday, a Hawk Event, and very nice it is too. 
    We did have a problem with fitting as I was adamant that I wanted an
    event saddle as the shape is ideal.  Holly's shape though leaves
    something to be desired, we thought she would need a wide saddle but in
    fact it was a medium.  It fits perfectly but sits a little high on the
    withers than perhaps a working hunter would but I was happy with it and
    it fits so I'm over the moon now!!  Caroline from Centell brought out a
    very wide variety of saddles and it was great being able to try them
    out.  I thought it would be very uncomfortable going from a synthetic
    to a leather but I was very impressed with the Hawk one.  I took Holly
    out in it last night and she was going beautifully, even though her old
    one fitted her, she seems to be going forward and rounding nicely -
    perhaps that's just me!!!
    
    To top it all, I bought a very nice new leather bridle and new stirrup
    leathers, plus lots of other bits and pieces!!
    
    So now I have to look forward to spending my evenings with a tin of
    Neatsfoot oil!!!!
    
    If any of you know anyone who is in need of a bridle.leathers/syn
    saddles, please check out the noticeboard and get in contact with me. 
    Oh, and thank you for your advice - I listened to it well.
    
    Lizzie