Conference noted::equitation

    Hi!! I have a question for you: Is it true that when your trakehner
    has her foal, you keep the first letter of the mare's name? For
    example, if your horse's name began with a K, its foal would too?
    I find horse-naming to be alot of fun.  The name just makes the
    horse, right?  I guess its kind of a hobby of mine, you could say.
    Let me know if you think of a name for your horse's foal, ok?  
    Bye!
    C.

Two things:
    
    Breeding your mare sounds great. I bred my thoroughbred mare last
    spring, she is due in April.  I think one of the most important
    things to remember is being in the new england area, we have 
    an extremely high acid content in the soil, which kills all the
    minerals a broodmare needs. I use vitamin E with Selenium, works
    very well.  Talk to you local vet about it.  A mare without 
    selenium has a high risk of aborting.  Good luck.
    
    Second:
    
    I know of a nice quarterhorse gelding for sale, very quiet,
    16.1 in Tyngsboro  617-251-8325 owners name is Betsy. 
    

    Has anybody got any good techniques for schooling extensions?  My
    first level horse has adequate canter extensions but the trot is
    giving us some problems (too much drilling from his previous life
    as a school horse). We either get insufficient lengthening until
    halfway accross the diagonal or rushing.  Help...
    
    Maureen
    Dayton, Ohio

    In regards to .9, I'd love some suggestions when it comes to teaching
    a youngster lengthenings in the first place!  I have a 4 year old
    gelding who is currently doing fairly well at Training and would
    like to start working on lengthenings.  His walk lengthening is
    decent (good beginnings) and his canter is coming along also.  However,
    the trot...
    
    Anyway, suggestions would be great!
    
    Thanks,
    
    Linda
    

    In reply to 10.9 and 10.10:  Techniques that I have found helpful
    in teaching lengthenings at the trot are:
    1) trot around the arena at a working trot (make sure horse is
       adequately warmed up), ask horse to slow his pace, collect
       a bit around the short ends of the ring (at A and C) this
       I call the short trot.  as you go down the long sides, ask
       horse to lenghten by using alternating squeezes with your
       calfs - this is the long trot.  What you want is more impulsion
       from the hind quarters and the shoulders to lift and extend.
       It should eventually feel like the horse is climbing stairs.
       At first the horse will quicken his pace.  This is ok as long
       as his stride gets longer.  You can always slow it down once
       he knows the lengthing aid (alternate squeezes).  This will
       work along the diagonals too.
    
    2) On a trail ride, get the horse to go from a working trot into
       'long trot', give him his head until he really uses his shoulders
       and hindquarters, then slowly collect his head.  The horse
       must use his back to stay round or else the trot will just be
       fast.  Often times in the ring, as you ask for the long trot
       if the horse does not respond well, give him a smart crack with
       your whip, so that on the next long side, he will make the effort.
       
    Most impt: The horse need to be encouraged to go forward, so at
    the beginning, give him a longer rein than usual, so he will reach
    then, slowly begin to collect him as long as he keeps the extension
    in his stride.  Spurs or whip used properly are a big help.

One thing that is very important in teaching a horse to do a good extended trot 
is that the horse is going on the bit.  As Julie mentioned, collecting the 
horse around a corner helps a lot.  Coming out of the corner, urge him forward
with your legs, but give a gentle half halt to remind him that its not just
faster speed that you want, and that he should stay on the bit.  Be satisfied 
with just one or two correct strides in the beginning and reward him for these, 
and gradually ask for more and more over time.  Its not worth rushing it.

One other thing that I have found is that its often easier to get a good 
extended trot across the diagonal than down the wall.  Collect the horse around
the corner, then ask for a few steps of extension across the diagonal.

Another trick which will sometimes help with horses having a hard time with 
extensions is to use poles flat on the ground.  Have someone watch and place 
the poles such that they match the horses trot exactly.  They should not affect 
his gait at all.  Gradually move the poles further apart (but always an equal 
distance apart) until he has a longer gait.  This improves the length of the 
stride and builds up the muscles needed for a good extension.  It does not 
actually teach the horse to extend though, and you still will need to train him 
in the extension.  This is sometimes good for young horses.

And I wouldn't worry about him not getting it right (10.9) until he is halfway 
across the diagonal,  when he does get it right, reward him immediately.  Don't 
ask for any more that day, but every day ask him to extend for a little bit 
longer.  Sometimes when there is a training block it is good to quit 
immediately after he gets it right, and let him have the rest of the day off.  
Let him realize that he has to get it atleast for one step before he can quit.
It depends on the horse.

I guess you've probably figured out that I believe it takes TIME to make a good 
dressage horse.  Don't rush things and in the end you'll have a much better, 
much SOUNDER horse.

And remember, keep him on the bit!

Joan

Maureen,

There are two techniques for getting a proper lengthening.  A 'lengthening'
is quite different from a 'medium trot' - which is quite different from an
'extension.'

If you are getting 'insufficient lengthening' comments from judges, there may
be a number of different reasons why.  You mentioned your horse either
rushes or doesn't quite get up to a lengthening until half way across the
diagonal.  A horse that rushes was not given proper preparation for a 
lengthening.  The most important thing in a lengthening is how well the
horse engages his hocks.  The pretty front end movement is merely a result
of the correct hind-end movement.  

If you watch a horse performing a correct lengthening from behind, you'll 
notice that his hocks come up high, even, and maintain the same width.   
While if you watch a horse preforming an incorrect lengthening from behind, 
you'll see no elevation of the hocks, irregular and 'scattered' movement, 
and wider spread hocks.

It should be all right to 'build up' to your lengthening as you approach
X -- but some judges believe you should already be lengthening the moment
you begin crossing the diagonal.  If your horse is producing a good
lengthening at the half way point then I wouldn't be too upset... you
know he can do it.   Then you've got to try to shorten that 'build up'
time to the lengthening.  But without causing him to rush.  I'm
surprised actually that you were 'docked' for that 'build up' time.
It's better to be late then to cause rushing!! So if your horse isn't
quite ready for an immediate transition between working trot and 
lengthened trot -- take your time.  Your approaching the matter correctly.

Two 'accepted' techniques for establishing lengthenings are:

1) a 'build up' technique... gradually progressing from a working trot
to a lengthening.  Don't ask for too much too fast.

2). an immediate transition, evolving out of the corner, and, once straight,
the first stride is a lengthening.

Some exercises you might practice to quicken your horse's ability to
engage his hind end are:

First - use the corner to your advantage before a lengthening.  Try
leg yeilding into the corner two steps before asking for the lengthening
on the long side/diagonal.  What the leg yeilding does is engage the
inside hind leg (elevates it), thereby raising the forehand and causing
freer front-end action for achieving a lengthening.  Use half-halts to
to help balance your horse in the corner.  Also prior to asking
for the lengthening, half-halt to signal a transition is coming.

Never ask for the lengthening while in the corner.  Only after you've 
straightened your horse out.   All preparation for the movement is done
in the corner. 

Another technique for preparing for the lengthening while in the corner:

Alternating, when the horse's inside hind leg is on the ground
(your inside knee goes down then), touch the horse with your inside
heel.  When the horse's outside hind leg is on the ground, touch
the horse with your outside heel.  Do this three times - inside,
outside, inside to engage the horses hocks.  (note this can only 
be done at the sitting trot).  This is a quick one two three count.
What you're really doing in the corner is collecting the horse for
three strides.  So don't allow the horse to reach out with his neck
just yet.  If anything, you're shortening his neck by raising his
poll  (not shortening the frame with your hands mind you).

After preparing for the lengthening in this manner initially, half-halt,
straighten the horse out and  push him forward with your calves/heels
into a longer rein (ie longer neck).  Your hands should allow for the
longer neck-frame AS you are pushing your horse forward. But be careful 
you don't give your horse a  softer rein, or loose rein.  A loose rein 
should mean 'Horse, stretch down to the ground please.'  You don't want 
that!  The poll should always be the highest point on the horse (in every 
dressage movement except for 'free walk on a loose rein.'

Encourage the lengthening throughout the diagonal by using only your thighs.
This is one of the few times you will ever use your thighs as an aid
(Other times: turn on the haunches, pirouettes, etc.).
Feeling when the horses inside hind leg is on the ground, count to your
self 'now and now and ..' in rhythm with the trot.  Each time you 
say 'now' you will actually close your thighs hard around the horse.
Each time you say 'and' you will relax your thighs.  By using your
thighs instead of your calves or heels you will help prevent the horse
from rushing.  

If you're posting across the diagonal during a lengthening you can still
use your thigh muscles every time you sit.  As a side note: don't change
your posting diagonal at X when you're doing a lengthening.  It is 
acceptable to change it at the corner letter upon completing the movement.
Imagine it: All you need to do is disrupt your horse's balance a minute
amount and he may start doing a 'hurried' or 'irregular' or 'rushed'
lengthening.


I know of other very good exercises for achieving a good lengthening
but I've run out of wind.  I probably gave you more than you wanted as
it is!  I learned these exercises/lengthening theories through Karl
Mikolka.  Karl Mikolka was once the trainer for the Spanish Riding
School in Vienna.  He still works with Lippazaners in Illinois, near
Chicago.  I consider him the best there is in this country.  I just wish
he lived close by.

    Does anyone have any info about the Passier 'PSL' dressage saddle?
    Someone that came to try out a horse brought that saddle w/her.
    I rode in it and really liked it.  The one thing I remember about
    most Passiers is that the seat is usually very hard.  I only rode
    in this saddle for 10 min, but did not really think that the seat
    was too hard (but it's hard to tell, since I was not in it for an
    hour).  I'd be interested in a used one if anyone hears of one.
    
    While we are on the topic of saddles, what type do people have and
    what do they like/dislike about them?

    I had a Passier A/P, the seats give the impression of being harder
    than some, but for some reason, they are the most comfortable
    saddles that I've found.  I've been looking for another used  one,
    but once people buy them, they don't part with them.
    
    

    I have a Passier dressage saddle, and I love it.  I bought the saddle
    after trying out atleast half a dozen other saddles, and after having
    ridden in a borrowed Passier for two years.  I wouldn't trade this
    saddle for anything!
    
    Like Maryanne said, it will be next to impossible to find a used
    one, I looked for several years.  People just do not sell them!
                                                                   
    Joan
    
    

    I have a Passier Century that I use for jumping (and any other time
    I want to be comfortable) and a Clinton Northrup dressage saddle.
    The Passier is the most comfortable saddle I have ever sat in. It's
    about 10 years old and I think the only way I'd give it up would
    be over my dead body.
    
    The dressage saddle I have is nice, but it's not as comfortable
    as the Passier. If anything it is too soft for my taste.  I'm going
    to sell it shortly and buy a PSL.  Anybody out there want a slightly
    used dressage saddle?
    
    Maureen
    

I also have a 10 yr old Passier A/P that I will not part with.  I parted with
the horse but not the saddle!  It has an incredibly supple tree and molds 
itself to the horse.  I had extra long billets put on it to get the buckles out
from under my knees - this was relatively inexpensive.

Can anyone explain to me the basic principles of getting a green horse to accept
contact?  I am currently riding a young inexperienced gelding for my lessons.  
He is surprisingly straight and is starting to get the hang of leg yielding.
Since his mouth is good I don't want to hang on it but when I take up the slack
and move him out, he starts pulling.  When he does this I try to give him more 
rein without loosing the light feel.  His head goes up and down - he chomps the
bit -all the while I'm trying to keep perfectly even light contact on his mouth.
Should I be half halting when he starts to pull?  Or will this turn into a 
pulling contest?  His upward transitions are all happening from his shoulders -
no hock engagement and he balances himself with a low neck.  He gets ridden alot
by other students on a long rein.  I've ridden a few older horses for lessons 
that require alot of contact pressure.  I can't believe this excess is correct, 
but they do respond well to it.  Since this riding establishment doesn't have 
any experienced dressage horses for me to ride, I have to make do.  

Thanks,
	JB

    re: .23 - How young is the horse you are riding?  You don't
    want to be using 1/2 halts at this point, only to signal for
    transitions or get his attention for another aid.  One method
    I use to get my horse to accept contact starts at the halt.
    Gather your reins so that there is no slack in them, then rest
    your hands on the pommel of the saddle and hold firmly.  When
    the horse 'gives' to your hands by flexing and relaxing at the
    poll, reward him by relaxing the muscles in your arm and your
    elbow joint, but do not slide your hands forward to give him
    more rein.  The idea is that your hands stay in one place; when
    the horse puts his head up and stiffens, he is punished by the
    pressure on his mouth, when he relaxes and flexes at the poll
    he is rewarded, because the pressure on his mouth is lessened.
    
    You have to tell him he is good when he relaxes (pat him once
    in a while)  This same technique can be used at all gaits when
    he knows what to do at the halt.  At walk, trot, & canter, when
    he goes give to the rein, you should encourage him forward with
    your legs, but not when he is resisting.
      
    With a young horse, he should not be forced into a collected frame
    for long periods of time.  He should learn to use his hindquarters
    more and you need to use more leg to ask him forward.  His instinct
    will be to quicken, but with the proper contact you can turn the
    quickness into impulsion.  He must learn to use his back more, thus
    freeing his shoulders.  
    
    I hope this and other replies you get will help, although if other
    students are riding him on a long rein, it won't help his training
    very much.

    re: .25
    
    You will probably be best off with an "all purpose saddle" for
    now.  It will allow you to do flat work and jumping without
    being designed specifically for dressage. Is the Mirage an "all
    purpose" saddle? I know County has a saddle that you can
    move the flaps forward or back for different types of riding,
    but I don't know anyone that has one.

    re: 10.13 on lengthenings
    
    I've kind of  determined what our problems with lengthenings is.
    We don't have lengthenings.. We have extensions.
    
    The extension is immediately apparent (like in the beginning of
    a diagonal) and eventually (3-4 strides later) gets degraded into
    an official lengthening. Sounds real strange but thats what shows
    up on video tape and in the comments of judges used to watching
    upper level tests.  The horse I working with is a Prelim level event
    horse and this situation sometimes causes us to take a rather
    circuitous route in training.  The last judge pretty much accused
    me of showing an upper level horse in 1st level tests to get
    ribbons.(That's when I got the video camera out.) We now have a
    new method of riding the lenthening movements - I just sit there
    and relax (Impusion is not this horses problem!)
    
    
    I have been working with Jurgen Gohler (from around Chicago) and
    Bill Wofford. Very different approaches but each is useful in it's
    own way.
    
    In any case, thanks for the good advice.
    
    Maureen
    

    re: .26
    
    Yes. The Mirage has an adjustable flap. My concern is whether the
    Mirage with the flap in the "dresaage position" provides for an
    adequate dressage seat. That is: are the stirrups properly positioned,
    etc...Thanks.
    
    bobk
    

    Bob, I remember seeing an ad for the mirage in a magazine, I
    don't know of anyone that has one, but you could try sitting in
    it with the flaps in 'dressage position', see how your leg falls,
    then sit in a couple of other 'true' dressage saddles (like the
    County Continental or a Passier model) and compare leg and seat
    positions.  Ideally, you want to be sitting in the deepest part
    of the seat, and if your leg is hanging in a relaxed position, it
    should fall straight down, with your knee bent slightly.  Most
    tack shops have wooden 'horses' that you can place saddles on and
    sit in them.  From what I remember about the write-up in the ad,
    it should be fine for 'dressage'.  The stirrup leathers should
    hang properly if they designed the saddle right.

    RE: .29
    
    Thanks. I will ride some wooden horses with the Mirage and other
    dressage saddles to see if the seat is similar. Thank you again.
    
    bobk
    

    At this stage, since the horse had had limited training, there are
    a couple of things you could do:
    1) longe the horse in side reins (start with them loose and after
       every 2 or 3 longing sessions, tighten them up by a hole, until
       they are in the position to keep his head properly flexed)  Do
       most of the longe work at the trot, cantering is more difficult
       esp. if the horse is not balanced.
    
    2) when you are at the halt and ask the horse to flex, try doing
       this first:  take up contact on the left rein and drop the right
       one.  keep gathering up the left rein until the horse turns his
       head to the left, and you can see his profile & a little more.
       then rest your left hand on the pommel and keep it there until
       you feel the horse soften his mouth.  You can tell when he softens
       because the left rein will go from taught to slack.  He might
       even chew or 'mouth' the bit. when he does this pat him and let
       his head go straight.  Do this with the other rein as well. 
       let him walk a bit, and try it again.  Once he gets the hang
       of it, you can ask him to flex to the left then to the right
       quicker than before, and eventually ask him to flex vertically
       by just resting both hands on the pommel.  You must reward even
       the slightest effort by relaxing your muscles and patting him.
    
    These exercises will take a few days, so don't rush it.  You should
    do them at the beginning of each riding session to loosen him up,
    and get him listening to your hands.  Remember, go slow and reward
    him, you should not have a problem with rearing, but if he seems
    nervous, stop - let him walk on a loose rein - and try again.
    
    (I'll answer the rest of your questions in another reply)

    As far as the amount of pressure on his mouth, at this stage, you
    will want him to accept light pressure (enough to keep him balanced
    and to control his front end, but you don't want to 'collect' him)
    He should not be going on a loose or long rein like some hunters
    or pleasure horses do.  
    
    At training level (dressage tests) the horse is expected to be 'on
    the bit' and using his back.  To look at him, his head and neck
    should be stretching down and out into the bit, but you use your
    legs and half halts to engage his hindquarters and 'tuck' his nose
    in (so that is vertical to the ground). At this point be pleased
    if your horse will stretch down and out, but don't let him lean
    or be heavy on your hands.  A squeeze with your calfs or a quick
    squeeze on rein should help shift his weight onto his quarters.
    
    It's hard to put in words how much contact to have and what it should
    feel like, but when the horse is moving (trot or canter you can
    get a better idea) you should gather your reins so that when your
    elbows are bent (above your hips) there should be a straight line
    from the bit to your elbow (through the reins).  The reins should
    not droop or be slack, because you always want to feel what the
    horse is doing.  As the horse comes above the bit or flexes, you
    should feel more pressure on the reins (above the bit) or less pressure
    (when he flexes).  If he's learned his lessons from the halt flexion
    exercises, when he feel more pressure because he's brought his head
    up, he will lower it again and notice that the pressure becomes
    less.  You must keep your hands in the same position throughout,
    not push them forward when he flexes or pull back when he raises
    his head.  Let the horse figure out the reward and punishment stuff.
    You will, however, when he becomes more experienced, tighten up
    your arm muscles when he raises his head, and relax them when he
    flexes.  
    
    As for your legs, when the horse flexes (even slightly) you want
    to squeeze with your calfs, and encourage him to step under himself
    more with his hind legs, round his back, and free his shoulders.
    Don't give too much leg or it will startle him and cause his head
    to come up again.  If he is running around with his head up, don't
    use any leg at all until he relaxes again.  Eventually, when the
    horse learns to balance himself and move in a round frame, when
    you do give the squeeze with your calf, he will make more effort
    with his hind end, and will feel much lighter in your hands (the
    reins will not become loose, but you will feel that he has put more
    of his weight on his quarters rather than on his shoulders and your
    hands).
    
    Does the instructor you ride with teach dressage?  You might want
    to find some books on training horses (basic dressage etc.).  It
    will take a long time, but patience, repetition and rewarding him
    when he's good will get you there.

    Just checking to see how you have been doing with your lessons
    and the 'green' horse?  Has your instructor given you any
    other ideas or exercises to try?

re 10.35

 Hi Janice,


 It sounds to me as though you're doing very well with that gelding.  It's
so important to keep a green horse relaxed through out a training session.  
I hope you're not discouraged by not being able to keep him 'on the bit'
consistently.  If there's even the slightest progress made after a
training session (for either horse or rider) than you're doing well.

 I think Julie (re: 10.32) gave a very good description of putting a horse
on the bit. But even the best writer can't put into words how to put a horse 
on the bit.  The way a rider learns is from coaching, and being told when
its right and when its wrong.  The rider must FEEL when its right/wrong.

 Sometimes it's good for a less experienced rider to ride an experienced
dressage horse just to learn what it SHOULD feel like.   I learned the
feel of a correct flying change before my instructor(s) and I trained my 
horse flying changes.  When I was first learning to place a horse on the
bit I learned on an experienced horse.  I think its good to learn how
things should work and feel, but some time or another you'll also have
to learn how to train a horse (usually your own horse) to do something.  

 You may or may not have found out already that there are dozens of 
different training theories, techniques, methods and approaches on
training a dressage horse.  Consequently, there are many differences of
opinion among instuctors, riders, and trainers.  It can be 
frustrating for a rider to alternate between instructors, especially
when the instructors have a clash in dressage theory -- which they almost
certaintly do.  When I think of two countries that clash the most in 
dressage theory I think of Germany and France.  In general, the German 
theory of training is a 'take charge' attitude, while the French theory
is a 'sit back and wait for it to happen' attitude.

 I guess mostly what I wanted to comment on was your statement about 
going out and buying an experienced dressage horse.  By experienced
you probably mean a proven training level or first level horse.  I think
that's a great idea.  As I mentioned before, I started learning how to
put a horse on the bit on an experienced horse.  At that same time I was
also taking lessons on my own horse and working with my instructor.
Eventually, I learned how to put my own (green) horse on the bit.  So I'm
saying your other alternative is still to buy a green dressage horse
(less $$$) and take lessons on both your green horse and an experienced
lesson horse.  


 If on the other hand, by 'experienced' you mean Fourth Level or up  (I'm
pretty sure thats not what you meant, but it gives me a chance
to express an opinion nearly related to this).  I've seen
at least a dozen beginner dressage riders go out and buy Prix St. George
level or up horses and they didn't know the first thing to do with them.
Putting any envy I might have had aside, I observed these rider's progress
and tried to make an unbiased judgement on how much they really learned
as riders.  As a side note: these riders only trained under instructor
supervision.  I decided that these riders had learned the correct
'feel' for many high level movements and eventually became quite competant
in riding THEIR horse.  But whenever I had the opportunity to watch them 
ride a horse other than their own they were shockingly incompetant.  For
example, one rider I know first learned how to put a horse on the bit on his
Pre St. George Level Trakehner.  But when he rode another less experienced
dressage horse he couldn't begin to put the horse on the bit.  The reason
being that the other horse rode with a snaffle.  And he has only ever learned
to ride a dressage horse with a double bridle.  I think to become an effective
and knowledgeable dressage rider one must 'learn the hard way' as all the
masters of the sport have done.  Because learning 'the easy way' won't be
learning at all.

-Melinda



 


 





 
  

 

 

	By "experienced" I do mean first level.  And since the purchase of 
a solid first level horse will require some fancy checkbook juggling and 
husband convincing, this is all I can hope for.  I would have no business
considering a more advanced animal - $$$ aside, I could cause more harm then
good.  

	Time is the key, and practice, practice, practice.  It's humiliating
though, when the 13 and 14 year olds in the class seem to be advancing very
quickly, and us "old timers - ie: 28" keep getting corrected for the same old
stuff (bad habits after years of riding).  

	And I agree with your comment regarding push-button performances -
no one can really learn how to ride well under all circumstances on a horse
that is totally predictable.  I like to set goals with my riding - to have
fun is #1, and to ACHIEVE something.

	Now if I can just get that mare bending around the corners...

Thanks for the info - I should start a notesfile called: 

	"SCHOOLING PROBLEM OF THE WEEK"

	Janice.

    Janice, regarding the problem with the mare, I'd like to clarify
    what the problem is then I can offer some suggestions.  On the
    straitaway what does she do?  Does she keep her head and neck straight
    or does she turn her head to the left or right.  If you reins are
    even, do you feel like there is more pressure on one rein, if so
    which one?
    
    On corners, if you are circling to the left, does the mare follow
    the curve with her body (nose to tail) or does she seem to bend
    her head and neck to the right?  The same question goes for circling
    to the right (but reverse the bend).
    
    Does the mare listen well to your legs?  This is important to be
    able to correct her bending problem, because you will use a strong
    inside leg to keep her out along the rail or to keep her on the
    bend of a circle.
    
    Most horses are one-sided (like people being right or left handed).
    This sounds like the mare's problem, but if you could answer those
    questions, it will help determine which side, and therefore what
    aids to use to correct it.
    
    -Julie

    re: 10.37
    
    Janice, first I'd like to wish you luck with your mare.
    
    Second, I think that the SCHOOLING PROBLEM OF THE WEEK is a good
    idea. However, I think that we already have a good start on that
    with this particular note ( at least on dressage). Perhaps we could
    devote a separate note in this conference to discuss schooling/training
    problems so we can obtain the benefit of those who have been there.
    I am a beginner and am looking for help since I can't give it.
    
    My current problem is this. The morgan horse we own is not a Snaffle
    horse according to my daughter who is quite capable of riding him
    with a western curb. I have it in the back of my mind that I would
    like that hors to do some dressage even if it never progresses past
    training level. Every time I put a snaffle on him he acts like he
    has nothing in his mouth (but he sure pays attention to a curb,
    some of them any way!). 
    
    My question is: Is there hope for this critter? Some people say
    "why do you want him to be a dressage horse? He is a good western
    horse!" On the other hand you see statements in books and magazines
    saying that ANY horse should be able to go in a snaffle! Others
    like George Morris of hunter jumper fame don't hesitate to put in
    whatever bit will control the horse, including twisted wire snaffles!
    
    So what is the input form this conference? Wht has been your experience
    in getting a horse (mine is 11 years old) to work with a snaffle
    bit? 
    
    Thanks for the help!
    
    bobk
    

    Bob, as a start to helping your horse, I'll ask a few questions
    and offer some suggestions to start with.  I hope some other noters
    will offer their suggestions, too.
    
    How old is your horse?  What types of bits has he been ridden in?
    Is he responsive to leg aids and voice commands? How long has he
    been ridden with a curb?
    
    With snaffle bits, there are varying sizes (thicknesses) which can
    make the bit very mild to more severe.  The thicker the mouthpiece
    the more mild it is (especially if it is hollow), the thinner the
    mouthpiece gets, the more severe it is.  You can also have the snaffle
    in a Dee ring or a Full cheek.  Both of those shapes have edges
    that push against one side of the horse's mouth when you pull the
    opposite rein; many people use these type of snaffles if their horse
    is hard to turn.  A snaffle refers to the fact that the bit is jointed
    in the middle.
    
    To start your horse, you might work him on the longe line in his
    bridle with the snaffle bit in his mouth.  To properly adjust it,
    there should be a couple of wrinkles in the corner of his mouth
    on each side.  A 5" mouthpiece fits the average size horse mouth,
    if your horse has a narrow mouth you might try a 41/2".  If your
    horse knows voice commands, work him on the longe (in an enclosed
    area) at walk, trot, and canter, both ways of the ring (probably
    10 minutes each side).  
    
    Longing will help get the 'edge' off the horse so he is more manageable
    and you can see how he reacts to the bit.  When you get on him,
    ride him in an enclosed area (paddock or ring) so that he can't
    go very far if he does ignore the bit.  Start off teaching him to
    halt before you try anything else.  You will probably spend the
    first day just walking, and quit on a good note.  
    
    Start walking the horse, keeping contact with his mouth so that
    your reins do not droop.  Their should be a straight line from the
    bit to your elbows with each rein. As the horse walks, follow his
    head with your hands, (slight forward and back movement) so that
    he does not feel restricted. Ask him to halt by stiffening your back,
    sitting deep in the saddle, and stopping your hands from following
    (you can just 'set' them on the pommel of the saddle).  At the same
    time use your voice to tell him Whoa or Halt or whatever command
    you use.  Because your hands are set, he will 'bump' into them if
    he keeps walking, keep repeating the voice command until he stops.
    Immediately relax your reins and pat/praise him.  Do this a few
    more times until gets it right away, then try it without the voice
    command.  You can also steer him towards a wall if he doesn't want
    to stop.  If you have a few successful halts, I would quit for the
    day.
    
    The next think you want to teach him is to listen to each rein
    independantly to turn (not neck rein).  Always start your training
    sessions with the halt lesson (its a good thing for him to remember).
    At the halt, you can pick up one rein, gather it up so you have
    contact with one side of his mouth, and pull your arm out to the
    side and back slightly.  You want the horse to turn his head in
    the direction of the pressure.  Normally, you will not pull your
    arm out to the side, but if you just pull back, the horse might
    think you want him to back up since he doesn't know about subtle
    pressure in the snaffle yet.  If he starts walking (to follow his
    head), pick up your other rein and ask him to halt again.  Do this
    exercise with both sides, you can also ask him to do it while he
    is walking.  As you put pressure on your left rein, he should go
    to the left, and vice versa.  Eventually do some complete circles
    in both directions, and any other type of turns, so that he learns
    to listen to each rein independantly.  As he learns, you can leave
    your arm in it's normal position, and just ask for turns with increased
    pressure on one rein or the other.  
    
    I'm going to finish up for now. Try these exercises and see what
    happens.
    
    Good Luck,
    Julie
    following his head.

    An easy way to get a horse which has always been ridden with a curb
    to respond to a snaffle is to ride him in either a full bridle (a
    combination of a snaffle and a curb bit) or a pelham (a bar bit
    with two reins, one at the top - the snaffle rein, and one at the
    bottom, the curb rein.  it has shanks like the curb)  Gradually
    put more and more emphasis on the snaffle and less on the curb.
     Eventually you should be able to go to a snaffle alone.  
    
    I agree with your feeling that any horse should be able to go in
    the snaffle alone.  Remember though that this is not always possible
    if too much damage has been done to his mouth.  Take it slow and
    easy, and if he does not seem safe in just a snaffle, ride with
    the full or pelham, at least when you are not in an enclosed ring.
     Its not worth your kid getting hurt.
    
    If you have never ridden with a full or pelham, you probably should
    take a lesson or two with these bits before you try it on your own.
    They can be quite a handful.
    
    Joan
    

    Thanks Julie. I will try your suggestions and report back later.
    
    In answer to your questions: we got the horse as a five year old.
    Since he was to hot for my 9 year old daughter we got her an arabian
    cross pony and had a lady who specializes in dresage work him for
    a while. She used a snaffle on him, but he always appeared to be
    running away when cantering. She said that she around 50 lbs of
    pressure on each rein holding him! We stopped after a whilde. A
    couple years later my daughter was bigger and more experienced and
    she started riding him but always with a curb bit. He is now eleven
  years old. So he is beengoing with a curb for about four years.
    
    Again, thanks for the help. Will let you know what happens.
    
    bobk
        

    Interesting! You mentioned a straight bar bit pelham. It just so
    happens that the latest bit in the growing collection of bits is
    a straight bar western bit that happens to have rings to use as
    a snaffle. I thought the horse responded better to that bit than
    to a ported mouth bit. The question is then: would a straight bar
    bit snaffle be more effective? I will try it. Got a suspicion that
    the horse may be more responsive to tongue pressure than bar/lips
    pressure. 
    
    Keep the ideas coming. Does anybody else has these kind of problems?
    
    bobk
    

    
    Every one seems to be putting in their two cents so here's mine.
    
    I used to have similar problems with my Thouroughbred/Quarterhorse
    who had been on the track in the mid west.  I don't want to say
    he was broke western (like I was told) 'cause I think it was more
    likely that he was virtually unbroke.   I started with a tom-thumb
    pelham which gave me a nice easy snaffle pressure but also allowed
    me the curb when I needed it.  Currently he is ridden in a medium
    width jointed snaffle.
    
    The point I really wanted to make is that the horse reacts to the
    rider. My horse is not a cool calm creature.  If the rider gets 
    tense at all his reaction is to run (from fright).  During all
    this he clenches his jaw.  Compound this with a riders tendency 
    to pump at the canter and voila no bakes! Needless to say I 
    learned real quick not to pump at the canter and to relax!
             
    When ever I have encountered problems I very carefully evaluate
    myself in addition to the horse.  I've always felt that when most
    people say "The horse threw me", the more accurate account was that
    the rider just didn't stay on.  I tend to take about 95% of the
    blame for problems.
    
    Good luck working with your horse.  It took me 1 1/2 years to
    get my horse going well in a snaffle. Don't get discouraged!
    
    
    Danielle
                                                                
    
    

    RE: 10.44
    
    Danielle thanks for the two cents. Every bit helps. After a while
    you got a lot of change! Good to know that there is hope even is
    a long term endeavor. I have the horse for keeps and I don't mind
    working the problem. Really, I'm not even making it a big project
    at this point. I'll work on it and maybe one of these days I'll
    be surprised to have a "snaffle horse"!
    
    bobk
    

    Bob, since you mentioned that the horse was too 'hot' for your
    daughter, if he is still like that, longing him before you ride
    for about 10 or 15 minutes will take the 'edge' off him, and at
    least when you get on him, he might pay more attention to you since
    he was able to get any bucking or extra energy out when you longed
    him.    Even working him on the ground with that bit might help.
    You could stand next to him, your shoulder next to the saddle, and
    pull the rein on that side to get him to turn his head towards you.
    Do this on both sides, and then lead him (walk next to his left
    shoulder) and ask him to halt by holding both reins in your right
    hand and give soft squeezes back towards his chest until he stops.
    Use your voice commands to help, then do it with just the reins
    - praise him when he obeys.  
    
    One other question, what (if any) type of noseband do you use on
    him now?  If you notice that the horse opens his mouth or seems
    to be avoiding the bit, there are various types of drop nosebands
    or 'figure 8' nosebands that will keep his mouth closed so that
    he has to pay attention to the bit.  Also, they will keep the ends
    of the bit up in the corners of his mouth so that it will act on
    the bars and corners of his mouth.
    
    I'm sure you will see some results in the first week or two, but
    you really have to school him almost daily or 4 times a week.  If
    you continue to use the curb for trails or other times that you
    ride, see if you can get him to respond to the lightest amount of
    pressure from the curb, this will help 'soften' his mouth to prepare
    him for the snaffle.
    
    Keep us posted on progress or problems,    Julie

    Hello
    
    As someone who has just discovered how to use NOTES (see 84.2) I
    was wondering if this the correct area in which to ask for advice ?
    If I am out of place maybe someone could be kind enough to point me
    in the right direction.
    
    The problem is this.
    
    If I try cantering my mare,Crunchie, she gets excited and rushes making
    it very difficult to control her.  On these occasions the voice
    is the only aid which has much effect.  
    When ridden at the slower paces she settles quickly and proves to be
    very responsive and calm. It's almost like riding two different animals.
    
    She is currently ridden in a French Link Snaffle with a Flash noseband
    and of the various combinations tried goes best in this.
    
    I don't know anything about her past except that 'she may have spent
    some time in harness'.  Which would explain why she is stiff when
    working on the circle, goes very much on the forehand and will,
    if encouraged pace.  To help overcome the weaknesses she is lunged and 
    trotted up hills when possible.
    
    Should I forget about cantering for the present, prehaps until she is
    going on the bit more and better balanced ? 
    
    Any advice or guidance would be very much appreciated.
    
    Many thanks.
    
    Judy  Harwood
                                        

    
    Well, they switched me again - so I haven't ridden that mare for
a while - but when I was riding her, she did have a definite stiffness
to the right, this was extremely obvious while doing small circles.  While
she goes straight, her neck and head are turned to the left just enough to
see her left eye bump.  Per my instructor, I "nudge" with my right rein 
(a real light half-halt), a strong inside leg, and contact on the left rein
to avoid turning.  Through all of this I have to be ultra conscious of even
rein pressure - I've had trouble with it - so my instructor had me try it with
my eyes closed and it helped alot!  Also, sometimes her attention got distracted
easily to the left (could see the other horses in the barn) so I jiggled my foot
a little and her attention (and neck and head) went back to center.  At times,
while circling, I've had to use a stronger outside leg to keep her from running
out of the circle (seems to work with her).  She responds well to leg aids.
Could her conformation/breeding have anything to do with it?  She is a fairly
tall, lanky Saddlebred type with a naturally high head carriage.

Thanks,
	JB

re: .47

Judy,

It sounds like your mare is somewhat frightened by the canter gait.  This
is not at all uncommon.  She probably finds herself unbalanced at this gait
and it scares her - so she canters faster.  Most green horses are unbalanced 
at the canter and will act as Crunchie (love that name!) is acting. 

My suggestion:

Watch your mare canter on her own - whether in a field or large paddock.
If she appears balanced and coordinated then you know she only becomes
unbalanced with a rider on top.  This is the most common case.  (I'm not
saying its the riders fault - only that the riders weight unbalances the
horse). Then  try cantering on a straight line for a while - in a field 
or on a safe road/trail.  Whenever you are doing this talk to her to keep 
her under control.  Try not to hold her back.  Eventually you will want her 
to be confident enough to go on a loose rein at the canter.  My guess is that
this phase will take about a month.

When she is willing to canter on a loose rein in a controlled manner then
she is ready for ring work again.  Begin by cantering around the entire arena.
Again, concentrate on sitting quietly on top on top of her.  No bending aids -
nothing except soothing voice aids. You want her to build up confidence.
Show her that she has no reins to lean on.  You're not going to hold her up.

Your goal at this point will be to canter her on a long rein.
A 'long' rein is different from a 'loose' rein.  A long rein means you
would like to encourage the horse to stretch down with her neck as low
as she is willing (nose to the ground).  If she will do this while
cantering then you're 3/4 the way there.  Her stretching down will
stretch her back muscles and cause them to relax.  Don't be upset if her
canter seems fast.  Continue with this same type of canter work until
it is routine.  Gradually she should calm her pace down and find a
more conservative tempo.  This phase might take 2-4 weeks.  You may
continue to incorporate it into your training as a relaxing way to finish
off a session.

The next phase is picking up your reins without causing her to tense.
When you are successful then begin bending and circle work at the canter.
If a circle unbalances her then don't try to help her with your reins.
Again, let her discover her own balance. 


I once spent a summer training a 4 year old TB mare who would actually FALL
DOWN if asked to canter in an arena.  I figured out that her problem was
due to never having anything more than a small paddock to romp and play
in.  So she never learned to canter on her own as most youngsters do.
When she stayed with me it was the first time she'd ever been turned out
in a field.  When my other horses would canter around the field she would
look like a clumsy oaf trying to keep up with them.  I worked my way through
all the steps described above that summer.  She became very confident with
herself by the end of the summer.  I noticed improvement in her coordination
in the field.  Her ring work improved very much. She was doing 3 loop
serpentines with simple change of lead in the ring.  Before she could do
the canter serpentines, she had to discover her own balance.  And I had
to learn how not to interfere with that discovery.

One of my trainers once told me that canter work is the hardest for both
horse and rider.  But he said it was because most riders don't canter the
horse as much as they walk or trot the horse.  Often, canter work is put
off (by the rider) because the rider doesn't think the horse is ready for
it, or because it's too exhausting for the rider.  The only way the horse 
is going to learn his own self balance at the canter is to canter, canter, 
canter!  

-Melinda

    Judy, what does the French Link Snaffle look like?  Does it have
    a smooth mouthpiece?  Is the mouthpiece thin or thick, hollow or
    solid?  Does your horse listen to leg aids?  
    
    What I would suggest you try is lunging her with side reins for about
    7 minutes in both directions (walk, trot and canter) before you ride.
    If she never had side reins on before, adjust them so that when she is
    standing still and has her head in her normal position, the side reins
    should be taut (ie. straight line from bit to girth).  The elastic ends
    will 'give' if she wants to stretch down and out.  After a week at that
    setting, you can tighten them one hole so she has to use her back more.
    
    By longing her, you have her on a 15 to 20 meter circle and this will 
    help keep her canter slow, and the side reins will help make her use
    her hindquarters and keep her from sticking her nose in the air.
    
    When you go to ride her, do all of your canter work on 20 meter circles
    at either end of the ring or in the middle.  Do a lot of trot-to-
    canter and canter-to-trot transitions so that you get her attention
    and she is anticipating going back to trot, so she won't tend to
    'rush' around the ring.  You might use a figure 8 pattern and canter
    one circle, as you cross the center of the ring, trot a few strides
    and pick the canter up on the new lead.  Then sometimes, just stay
    on one circle and canter on that lead and as soon as she gets quick,
    bring her to trot, steady her and canter again. (do this in both
    directions).  Keep everything slow and steady, don't accept a rush
    job of going from a fast trot into a canter, make her go from a
    nice steady trot in to a steady relaxed canter.  It will take time
    for her to develop her back muscles and her balance, but it is the
    ground work for getting a more collected canter, counter canter
    and flying changes.
    
      The circle work will help slow her and help her get her balance so
    that she shifts her weight to her hindquarters.  You might try
    half-halts when she is cantering nicely but is getting a little too
    fast.  Just give a squeeze and release on the outside rein to 'check'
    her and get her balance back over her hind end.
    
    Do you ride 'hunt seat', 'saddle seat' ? How much contact do you
    ride with (more of a pleasure horse or is she 'on the bit')?
    
    Good Luck, and let us know how you make out.

    Woow, I hardly dare expect an answer so quickly, let alone such
    informative notes.  Many thanks.
    
    I will attempt to answer them both together as they compliment each
    other nicely. 
    
    A French Link snaffle is a double jointed bit.  The flattened centre
    section has a slight curve which when the bit is correctly fitted
    lies so that the 'top of the bump' faces the tongue whilst the 'two
    ends point upwards'.  Before anyone gets worried the enphasis is
    on 'slight' curve.  It is solid and of medium thickness.  
    I'm given to understand that it acts in two ways -
     	1. It depresses the tongue when pressure is applied through the reins.
     	2. The horse has difficulty in setting its jaw against the bit
    	   (thereby avoiding its action) because of there being two joints.
    
    As to the type of seat I ride with....Mmm.  Thats bit more tricky.
    I will assume for the moment that your Saddle seat is akin to or
    Dressage seat - here the riders legs are encouraged to 'go long'
    so that the leg can act against the horses side and the seat to
    sit deep into the saddle.
    Your Hunting seat I take to be more like our Jumping Position.  Here
    the stirrups are shorter and the knees encouraged into the knee
    roll of the saddle.  The rider can then lift his weight out of the
    saddle and go with the horse when jumping and moving over undulating
    terrain.
    Not highly detailed descriptions - nor the official ones but I hope
    enought to give you an idea of my definitions.
    
    Anyway coming back to what I use.  Something between the two. 
    I was aware from very early on that my own balance effected that
    of Crunchie, and as a result have kept my stirrups slightly shorter
    than usual in order to put my weight over her forehand if she was
    having a particulary stiff day.  Doing this I've found has helped
    her bend especially in those early days. Her back is strengthening
    and I find myself having to do this less and less.
    
    When she canters freely in the field she appears to be balanced and
    coordinated. Quiet enjoys life in fact.  
    The more I think about it the more I wonder how much time Crunch had 
    actually spent as a riding pony.  As a harness pony she would not have 
    done much cantering, and on those rare occasions would have been in straight
    lines.  
    
    Certainly, we have found the school is really too confined for any
    canter work, and she nearly fell on her nose when attempting it
    on the lunge.  I think we will work to improve her balance and relax
    her when riding out, then resume faster school work and then later
    lots of transitions circles etc. 
    
    Her appreciation of leg aids is very sketchy.  Again this is improving
    slowly as is her willingness to go on the bit.  She certainly isn't
    on the bit yet.  However I try to ride her with a steady contact.
    We've been practising some of your earlier suggestions for softening
    and accepting the bit.  She does occasionally  do this when being
    lunged.  
    
    Unfortunately I will have to wait a while before taking up these
    suggestions.  Crunch has just contract a virus, so we will have
    to get her fit before resuming work.  Fortunately it was spotted
    early and things are under control.  Thank goodness for a pony thats
    keen on her food (plain greedy according to hubby - but then she
    did have his last apple the other day !!).  At least when she only
    picked at her food we knew something was wrong.
    
    Thanks again for the help and support. 
    
    Judy.

    re: .39
    
    I've just joined DEC and have been following this conference for
    two weeks.  My husband and I have three Morgans which we having
    been training in dressage for the past 8 years.  It's taken a while
    since we were green and so were the horses.  Our first Morgan was
    trained saddle seat and was ridden in a double bridle.  It took
    us a long time a several bit changes to get her to work in a snaffle.
    She is also very hot, but sensible.
    
    We switched from the double bride with 7" shank curb bit (standard
    show Morgan bit) to a Kimberwick (has curb mouthpiece with port
    and D-shaped rings with two slots for reins).  From there we went
    to a straight bar snaffle with 5" shanks.  Finally made it to an
    egg butt snaffle with a thin bit (she still won't go in a thick
    or rubber snaffle).  We rode her in the snaffle for over six years.
    It took a while to get her to slow down at the canter while using
    the snaffle (the faster she goes, the hotter she gets, but she will
    listen to your seat).
    
    This year we started a conditioning program with our horses and
    ended up doing a lot of galloping on our road (real galloping, not
    just fast canter).  Our horses became very fit.  Charity (horse
    described above) loved it, however, she wanted to gallop all the
    time and the fitter she got, the more she pulled on the bit, till
    finally she could "run right through our hands".  So now we've come
    full circle, so to speak, and have her back in a double bridle so
    we have some brakes.  However, this time we're using a thick (well,
    for a bradoon it's thick) bradoon and a dressage curb bit (thick
    mouthpiece, slight port, and 4 1/2"(?) shanks.
    
    Our other two Morgans were started in dressage with snaffles and
    it really makes a difference to start them that way.  One goes in
    a straight mouth rubber bit and the other in a thick egg butt snaffle.
    Good luck with switching your Morgan to a snaffle - but you might
    not want to get him too fit!
    
    						Jan
    

    re: .52
     Thanks for your input Jan. It feels good to know that someone else
    has had similar problems and in this case, with the same breed of
    horse. As you mention, it may be that how you start a horse can
    make a lot of difference on their ability to work witha snaffle.
    Morgan horses can have very powerful necks (ours does) and can use
    it effectively to brace against a snaffle if they have a mind to.
    I have not giving up on this yet. 
    
    By the way, I have trouble visualizing a straight bar snaffle with
    5" shanks, or any shank for that matter. I thought a snaffle always
    had rings and no way to apply leverage! Could it be that what you
    used was some kind of driving bit??
    
    Also by the way, welcome to DEC and to this notes file. Can you
    tell us about your horses and what you do? I think we may have a
    separate note for introductions. What's your morgan's breeding?
    
    Again thanks for the input.
    
    bobk
    

    re: .53
    
    OOPS! - I meant a straight mouth pelham with 5" shanks.  We also
    wrapped the bar with Sealtex tape (also used for leg wraps).  Charity
    seems to respect anything with a curb chain, so we tried to work
    down in severity till she took the snaffle.  Working her in a double
    bridle now isn't too bad because we are now learning how to use
    one to do lateral movements and our instructors also teach holding
    both curbs reins and one snaffle in one hand and the other snaffle
    rein in the other (commonly called 3-in-1) which was new to us.
     I'll try to find the intro note and put something in there.
    
    						Jan
    

     When working with a green horse with halt flexions, wouldn't it be 
advantageous to start by allowing your arms to move forward when the horse
relaxes his neck and softens his mouth - stiffening your back and arms only
when he puts his head up and when he starts dropping his head too low?  
You can progressively limit the forward giving of the arms as the horse starts
to understand what you are asking, and as he learns to balance himself.  Since
the reward is immediate and well defined - this will help the horse relax and
think other things that are happening in the early stages of training.  I ask
this because this is what my instructor prescribes to get the horse on the bit.
And since trying this method on a few of her horses, have acquired a good 
response from them (on the bit, moving forward).  

     A while back I was taking lessons from another person.  Her method of
getting the horses head down and on the bit was to hold the reins as low as
possible (hands close to knees) and "see-saw" their head back and forth.  Her
horses accepted this method.  I've heard a few arguments against this procedure-
I'd like to hear what other people think of this.  

     Thanks for the help,

	Janice

     Can anyone recommend some good basic dressage books?

     Thanks,

	 Janice
  

Janice,

 It's been a while since I've heard anyone talk of the 'see-saw' method
of putting a horse on the bit.  It's too bad there are intructors being
paid to teaching completely incorrect dressage training techniques. You
did well by getting away from the 'see-saw teacher.'

  Beware of instructors having a well defined 'system' for placing a
horse on the bit.  Instead, look for an 'approach' in training a horse
to go on the bit.  There's no three step method, or see-saw method,
or jigsaw method or whatever!  

  Other 'bewares', 'no-no's', etc:

  Beware of the phrases like 'set your hands', 'stiffen your back', or 'saw
on his mouth.'  Watch out for instructors concerned about keeping a horses
head vertical with the ground.  Horses heads should be a few degrees above the 
vertical unless they are doing canter pirouettes, passage, or piaffe.
Be wary of instructors dependent upon artificial aids like draw reins, side-
reins or similar contaptions.  

  Why beware of all these things?  Because you may teach your horse only how
to 'set' his head, sort of like a circus trick.  A horse may also learn some
bad evasive techniques, like going 'behind the bit' or 'leaning' on the bit,
or 'hollowing' his back.  

  A riders hands, seat, back, calves, and heels provide the 'circle of aids'
needed to keep impulsion, relaxation, and rhythm in your horse.  It's too
delicate a balance to learn by reading alone.  

  It sounds like your present instructor is more in the ball park than the
first instructor you described.  Make sure you accompany your 'closed rein'
aids with leg aid.  Think of yourself pushing your horse into the bit with
your seat and legs.  Instead of 'giving' your reins when the horse is correct,
think of being 'light' with your rein for a moment. 

 Thats all I dare go into without writing non-stop... It's interesting isn't
it?  Something about dressage never lets your mind stop for a moments rest.

Have fun!




  
 


 

    My new instructor was trained in Venezuela she was taught to put
    a horse on the bit by first working the horse without a bit.
    She uses a bridle that only has a round leather nose band.  The
    reins connect under the nose band not at the sides.  This bridle
    helps the horse to get his head in the proper position with pulling
    on the horses mouth.
    
    My horse is not a green horse she is 12 years old an very calm.
    Her problem is that she works with her head stright out all of her
    movement coming from the front nothing from the back.  We tried
    getting her to stay on the bit and pull her head in.  The problem
    was that she was getting confused when I tightened on the bit she
    would want to stop.  My instructor let me borrow her bridle and
    I have been using it for about a week.  Now my horse is keeping
    her head in and her trot has improved dramatically, she is picking
    up her feet and moving at a nice pace.  I will only use this bridle
    for another week or less and then I will go back to the snaffle.
    I'll let you know if she takes the bit and moves any better.
    
    Mary Ann
    

    re: 10.59 and earlier notes on flexions:
    
    I agree with Melinda that you are better off with your current
    instructor.  What you want to do, when your horse reaches forward
    into your hands and he rounds his back, is use your calves to keep
    the impulsion with his hindquarters.  Usually when the horse flexes
    and relaxes, he tends to loose impulsion because he is stretching
    his neck and back.  You want to encourage him to stretch by rewarding
    him with a 'light' rein, but you want to keep the impulsion by
    squeezing with your calves to engage the hindquarters, and keep
    him moving in a rhythmic, energetic stride.  Most importantly, don't
    let him loose this impulsion around corners or on turns, it is very
    easy to forget about using your legs when you are doing patterns
    or corners.  
    
    Another thought (not a trick or method) is to keep a firm hold on
    the rein of your horse's stiff side.  In effect this keeps him straight
    between your hands, because he tends to relax the neck muscles in
    the side that he is 'light' on (ie. the not-stiff side).  When he
    is straight, then he can balance himself.  Keep contact
    on this rein enough so that you can just see his eye on that side,
    you don't want to turn his head.  Especially on turns or circles,
    this helps him from 'falling on the light side' and avoiding any
    contact on his stiff side.  Even when you are turning in the opposite
    direction, you want to see the eye on the stiff side (this sounds
    like it goes against all riding rules, but it is a training tool
    that you are using until the horse begins to relax his stiff side
    and give in to your hands equally - many horses will always have
    a slightly stiff side no matter how much work you do).
    
    You may notice that one rein is usually shorter than the other after
    you have gathered up your reins and have started riding, this is the
    stiff side, and the rein that you want to keep a hold of.  Make sure
    that your hands are always even, and by doing this, you will increase
    the pressure on the 'stiff' side.  Do a lot of turns, circles and
    patterns, because it's easier for the horse to become hollow on the
    long sides of the ring.
    
    As far as using your thighs - in regards to lengthenings - you don't.
    You want to use your calves to encourage the horse to take longer
    strides, but refrain him from getting quick with your rein aids.
    The thighs are not used to create impulsion, they act more like
    a stiff back does to a horse, slows him down - prepare for downward
    transition.  Normally, you want to 'open' your thighs, relax them
    so that you may freely use your calves on the horse. 
    

	Re: .56

	Centered Riding  by Sally Swift. 

	    An excellent book for basics.

  

    I've seen Centered Riding for sale in tack shops and in advertisements
    in magazines or catalogs (when they have a bunch of books for sale)
    
    My dressage instructor has attended a few of Sally's clinics and
    she says they really helped her a lot.  I have not heard any
    negative comments about her clinics.  
    
    -Julie-

    Re: .62
    
    	Centered Riding is available from most mail order tack shops
    (big ones like Miller's, Dover Saddlery, etc.), also any local
    bookstore can order it for you.  You can also write to the publisher
    (David & Charles in VT), I can mail you the address if you want.
    I also have Sally's videotape (another has just come out, too).
    
    	I have gone to several of Sally's clinics over the past three
    years and know her fairly well.  The clinics do help quite a bit
    in getting your mind and body organized.  She doesn't teach any
    specific seat, but most people that go are interested in dressage.
    The only negative comment I would have about her clinics is that
    some people really get into moving their body an awful lot in trying
    to get the feel of things and end up riding is a pretty bad position.
    I've only seen one or two cases of this however.
    
    	I have a bunch of dressage books and as soon as I get names
    and authors together, I will post a list of good ones for beginners
    (since all my instructors tend to lean towards classical dressage,
    some of the books will be in that vein).  Will try to get the list
    out in the next day or two.
    
    						Jan
    

re: 10.59

Janice,

 I'll clarify what I meant by not liking the phrase 'stiffen your back.'
I guess I don't like the picture I get in my mind when I hear the word
'stiffen' when referencing anything a rider does on a horse.  It's just
word choice there that threw me.

 But if you're using the phrase to mean 'resist forward motion with your
back' thats ok.  It sounds picky I know.  But so many times I've heard
a dressage instructor get after riders with a 'stiff lower back' or
a 'stiff neck', or having 'stiff ankles (heels)', or 'stiff forearms'
or 'stiff shoulders' ...  I suppose if I complained about using the word
'stiffen' then I should react similarly to the word 'resist.'  But the rider 
is allowed to resist I suppose - just not the horse right?

 A dressage rider's back is so important.  It should be relaxed and
supple - especially in the lower back.   A sitting trot will bring
out all the stiff-backed riders in a crowd everytime!  I always got
a kick out of watching a horse show class when the judge asked for
sitting trot.  Immediately, 3/4 of the class could be ruled out.

 Now in reference to using your thighs as aids... I think your halt work
sounds correct.  There are many times we are using our thighs as aids
indirectly.  Like when closing our legs around the horse -- our thighs
apply a certain amount of pressure.   When I mentioned thigh aids in
an earlier note I meant a direct, distinctive pressure applied from the
thighs.  Maybe that's what you're previous instructor meant also for
halting.  I would prefer to think of the halt aid as a combination
of half halts, seat and back aids , and a 'closing' of the riders legs
to ensure a forward transition into the bit.  

re:10.60

  It's true, not many instructors will tell you to use your thighs as an
aid when doing lengthenings.  For the majority of my dressage riding
experience I never did.  Then I was led on to it through Karl Mikolka
and found it worked magnificently on my own horses as well as other
horses I rode.  When I was living/training at Maj. Hector Carmona's 
and practiced the thigh aid technique on some of his school horses he
was most impressed with the results.  Needless to say I'm convinced it's
an effective aid.  The initial impulsion for the lengthening is established
by the calves -- and it's assumed the horse has a 'lengthening in him'
before using this technique.  The thigh aids encourage the lengthening by
helping the horse to maintain his rhythm across the diagonal, or down
the long side.  
 
  But as I mentioned in another note, you'll always find conflicting
theories among riders and instructors.  It's good to be open minded
and hear different opinions, so whenever you're in a jam on a particular
horse you'll know of another approach.   It's the dead-wrong approaches
you want to watch out for.  Those are the ones which could seriously effect
you're horses training.  Like 'setting' a horses head or backing your
horse around and around the ring whenever 'he's bad....'  Yes, I'm 
laughing now but unfortunately those things happen.

    re: .52 and .53
    
    Jan and Bob,
    
    I have a Morgan (ex park horse/roadster, now dressage/event horse)
    with the same kinds of problems.  She's little (14.1) but very
    strong and fast.  I guess she looks a little scary to ride but
    she's really quite sensible, just a lot quicker reacting than your
    normal horse.
    
    I use a combination of bits with her, separate ones for different
    aspects of training.  I realize this is not correct in the classical
    sense but it works for this one particular case. I learned it from
    a quarter horse trainer specializing in *all-around* horses (they
    do everything from pleasure to reining and barrels in the same show).
    
    For dressage, I use a french snaffle (she seems nore comfortable
    with it than a regular snaffle) and a figure 8 noseband. For stadium
    jumping, I use a double twisted wire snaffle, figure 8, and a running
    martingale. Sounds like a lot of stuff, but at least there's some
    control.  For cross country I ride her in a mechanical hackamore.
    The rest of the time, she's quite comfortable in a double bridle.
    
    Even with this mess of tack, she can still out pull me anytime she
    wants to, so we have a comprimise.  I don't pull and she doen't
    either.  I ride her mostly off relatively subtle weight and leg cues.
    Anything drastic motion upsets her ( I think 'cause she's always
    trying to anticipate). 
    
    I don't compete this horse much anymore. She's 18 and it doesn't
    seem fair to push.  But, a couple times a year we go and play at 
    an event.   She's seems to miss the competition. We don't win much
    but that's not what we're there for.  
    
    
 
  

    RE: Thighs
    
    Actually, the best rider in the world, Reiner Klimpke, uses his
    thighs all the time.  It is most notable in collected canter work.
    While watching him in a clinic last year in L.A. you could clearly
    see his thigh muscles flexing even at the working canter.
    
    I would like to continue this conversation later.
    
    Gregory Richardson

    As promised previously, here is a list of some good books on dressage
    in my opinion.  I'm also listing publisher and ISBN and places you
    can order them from (D=Dover Saddlery, M=Millers, E=Eisers).  Those
    without places to order will have to be ordered through your local
    bookstore.
    
    1.  Start Riding Right by Commandant Jean Licart, Arco Publishing,
    ISBN 0-668-02535-2
    
    	Basics on balanced seat, good book for beginners.  Can apply
    principles to hunt seat or dressage.
    
    2.  Centered Riding by Sally Swift, David & Charles, ISBN 0-312-12734-0
    (D,M,E and publisher)
    
    	Mentioned before in these notes.  Basics on getting your mind
    and body organized using visualization to be in harmony with your
    horse.
    
    3.  The Essence of Horsemanship by Waldemar Seunig, J.A. Allen &
    Co., ISBN 0-85131-336-1
    
    	Sections (1-5 pages) on each movement found in dressage from
    working walk to piaffe and passage.  Each section contains description
    of movement, purpose (or aim) of movement, aids, and a list of common
    errors and their corrections.  Excellent reference book in the
    classical school of dressage.
    
    4.  Simple Truths and Misconceptions in Dressage by Dr. H.L.M. Van
    Schaik, J.A. Allen & Co.  (M)
    
    	Haven't gotten the book yet, so don't have the ISBN.  However
    I have read portions of the manuscript.  Instruction in classical
    dressage emphazing an elegant, correct, and effective rider position.
    
    5.  Guide to Dressage by Louise Mills Wilde, A.S. Barnes & Co.,
    ISBN 0-498-02440-7  (D,E)
    
    	Author is a student of Hilda Guerney.  Comparisons of aids given
    by several authors for various movements with analysis of why
    particular aids were specified.  Could be confusing for beginners.
    Can find explanations of why your instructor told you to do it this
    way, but a book you read has different aids for the same movement.
    
    6.  The Dressage Formula by Erik Herbermann, J.A. Allen & Co., ISBN
    0-85131-348-5  (D,M)
    
    	Author studied with Egon von Neindorff (Neindorff has got to
    be one of the best riders in the world!  I've seen films of him
    and he has a gorgeous position and imperceptible aids, if I could
    only ride like that ...).  Excellent pictures (including comments
    on how to analyze pictures of riders) and analysis of movements.
    Introduces horses used in pictures and their faults and how their
    faults are worked around or corrected.  Book is extremely informational
    while being very easy to read.
    
    I encourage other people to add their favorites.  I'll do videos
    in another reply as this seems to be getting long.
    
    						Jan
    

    How would you begin to use this method if your horse is used to
    listening to your calves for cues and impulsion.  What about lateral
    movements such as shoulder-ins and half-pass?  Could you explain
    how this 'method' works on the horse and why it is preferable??
    to using your calves?  Is this easier for long-legged riders?
    
    Do you find that this method is used more by european riders rather
    than U.S. riders?

    And here's the list of videos.  I haven't seen all the ones I want
    to yet, so I'm only commenting on those I've seen or have gotten
    reports on from other people.  Videos are available from Dover Saddlery
    (D) and Video Schoolhouse (VS)(Video Schoolhouse also goes under
    the name of Sallyforth Publications).
    
    1.  Centered Riding Parts 1 and 2 with Sally Swift (D)
    
    	Best if you read the book first.  These are excellent complements
    to the book, and if you've never attended or watched one of Sally's
    clinics, these videos give you the opportunity.
    
    2.  Official USDF Introduction to Dressage (D)
    
    	Produced by US Dressage Federation.  This is a very basic
    introduction covering what is dressage, appropriate tack, and
    comparisons of good and not so good execution of various movements.
    
    
    Not specifically a dressage video:
    
    3.  Linda Tellington-Jones:  Teaching the Touch (D,VS)
    
    	Learn to help your horse by finding where he is stiff and help
    loosen muscles for better performance.  Linda feels horses resist
    only because of physical problems.  The TEAM touch helps the horse
    with these problems, also good for calming nervous horses.
    
    Just for fun:
    
    4.  The Spanish Riding School: The First Four Hundred Years (D,VS)
    
    
    The Video Schoolhouse also has a rental policy which I plan on taking
    advantage of.  If I see any more good videos, I'll report on them.
    
    						Jan
    

    The use of the thighs is independent and not exclusive of the
    use of the calves.  While my riding isn't yet at the level where
    using them would make a lot of difference, I think I am beginning
    to understand why the correct use of the thighs is important.  Yet,
    not every rider uses them much as far as I have seen (but that includes
    only two viewings of international dressage events--the 84 Olympics
    and the 86 World Championships).
    
    At the walk the thighs move in such a way that the seat follows
    the motion of the horse.  Consider if the thighs are stiff and
    unmoving.  Then the stiffness of the thighs is transmitted to
    the back of the rider.  The horse will thus feel much tension
    on his back and it will become stiff.  As the horse stiffens
    up his other movements become less free and eventually he will
    have a sore back and become lame.
    
    At the sitting trot the thighs, in my way of thinking, serve
    to balance the rider on the back of the horse.  Here the use
    (or misuse) of the calves I think can result in sore backs.
    When I started riding more seriously a few years ago I tended
    to hang around the horse's barrel and sides with my lower legs.  I
    thought this was the way to stay on.  Then I watched Klimpke
    though the binoculars at the 86 World Championships and noticed
    that while sitting the trot his seat actually bounced up an inch or so.
    He didn't actually leave the saddle because his thighs and calves
    kept contact with the saddle.  However, he wasn't holding on to the
    sides or belly of the horse with his calves and feet.  Somehow his
    supple back and thighs act as a shock absorber and he does not
    inhibit the horses trot movements.
    
    I am still thinking about the canter.
    
    Gregory
      
    

    Have you read any articles or books that talk about using your thighs?
    When you mentioned about stiffening them at the walk, I agree with
    the effect it has on the horse, but what about keeping them relaxed
    and using your calves to create the impulsion.  At the trot, how
    would you use your thighs during lateral movements, usually you
    use your inside calf at the girth to keep the impulsion, and the
    outside calf behind the girth to keep the bend.  I would be interested
    in reading any information that may be written about this topic,
    and I will talk to a couple of dressage trainers that come to the barn
    where I board to see what their thoughts are.
    
    Let me know what you think about the canter.

    I spoke with my instructor the other day about this subject.  She said
    she has seen Reiner Klimpke ride and that his thighs are incredibly
    relaxed when he rides, thus they move slightly with the horse's movements.
    That could give the impression that he 'flexes' or uses his thighs
    when he rides.  She said that for the most part, the thighs are
    used for downward transitions, the effect they have on the horse
    is to stiffen the back, so you wouldn't want to use them when you
    want the horse to be round.  Think of it this way: when you squeeze
    or tighten your thighs on the horse, you're 'pinching' his back
    between your thighs, thus restricting his back muscles.  This is
    usually a signal for a downward transition, not when you want him
    to lengthen his stride, or collect himself when his back needs to
    be very round.

    Re: .69
    
    A few things more about dressage books:
    
    I finally got my copy of Dr. Van Schaik's book and found I had the
    title reversed, it's:  Misconceptions and Simple Truths in Dressage,
    ISBN 0-85131-417-1.
    
    A revised version of Guide to Dressage is now available and it includes
    the new 1987 tests.
    
    A book which I forgot the on the list in 10.69:
    
    An Anatomy of Riding by H. Schusdziarra, MD and V. Schusdziarra,
    MD, Breakthrough Publications, ISBN 0-914327-08-9.  Father and son
    doctors and dressage enthusiasts detail how muscles are used in
    riding.  First part of the book is an anatomy lesson dealing only
    with specific muscles used in riding.   The second part deals with
    exactly how the muscles are used in various movements, plus how
    they are misused.  Third part includes exercises for developing
    specific muscles, and the fourth part discusses teaching and learning
    about using the muscles correctly.
    
    A note for people discussing the use of thighs in previous notes,
    this book is excellent in its discussion of using your thighs and
    exactly which muscles in the thighs to use.  Also it has a very
    complete discussion on what is meant by "bracing the back".  Many
    instructors use this phrase, but everyone has their own definition.
    The definition here is the best I've seen.  Unfortunately it is
    hard to reproduce their discussion because they use so many pictures,
    but I hope those of you who are really interested in use of the
    thighs and in what you really should be doing when "bracing the
    back" will get this book.  It really explains things well and
    thoroughly.
    
    						Jan
    
    
    

    
    
    Re. 10.47
          
    We've been CANTERING CIRCLES in the school.  Crunchie has started
    to relax and bring her head down and is begining to work from behind.
    The transitions are still a bit shakey.
      
    It's not much but a great improvement from the early days.
    
    Just for the record.  She was off work for about 10 days with the
    virus and was then quietly brought back starting with half hour
    lunges and short hacks out.  We also had her teeth checked and  the
    vet did infact rasp them although he did say that they weren't bad
    at all.                                             
    
    For the last couple of weeks I've had a differant instructress.
    Her approach is the 'quiet I want to get inside your head'.
    This has been working very well indeed.  It was she who commented
    on the way that Crunch will sometimes run away from the leg.  
    Maybe the only schooling under saddle was the 'leg on for GO' and
    'rein pull to STOP'. 
    She suggested that if Crunchie had been in harness then she could be 
    quiet adept at leg yielding.
    We tried it, and she is.  We now practise these movements in order
    to encourage Crunch to listen to leg aids and not to run away from
    them.  It all helps, if she starts to rush I circle her, settle her 
    and try again.  We finish on a long rein canter around the school,
    which she clearly enjoys.
    
    Thanks for the help and advise offered.  It is working very well.
    A great pity I can't show you the improvement you've contributed
    towards.  Who knows, maybe one day ....
    
    Best wishes.
    
    Judy
                                                              
    
    
    
    

    Judy - When you referred to 'being in harness' what exactly did
    you mean?  Do you put an actual driving harness on Crunchie, and
    ask for lateral movements, or do you just long-line her?  Is her
    problem that she is too responsive to leg aids, and therefore a
    squeeze with the calf makes her take-off?
    
    I'm glad things have improved with Crunchie.  It makes you know
    that all is not lost...(can teach an old horse new tricks)
    
    

    
    By 'in harness' I mean that she has been driven in a from a vehicle
    with shafts.
    
    We bought Crunchie in September of this year without any papers.
    I did have the advantage of riding her on several occasions prior
    to learning that she was for sale.  Her owner at that time had bought
    her from a local horse market 'as seen' and the some what vague
    comments that the mare had been driven in harness.
    
    So as you can see most of what we know about Crunch has had to built
    up on what we have seen and how she reacts to differant situations.
    
    In order to confirm, or otherwise we ought to try long reining her
    but as I've only just learnt to lunge, I felt I ought to take things
    slowly.  (I'm not entirely sure who actualy controls these sessions,
    as clearly Crunchie is far more experianced than I am).  There is
    also a shortage of people who have practical driving experiance
    in our immediate area.  I had intended to wait until the spring
    shows and try approaching the 'single horse' entrants for advice.
                                                                     
    Yes, I believe you are right in supposing that she's maybe too
    responsive to leg aids.  This is almost certainly the case when
    out hacking and the anticipation is high.  She also afraid of the
    bit, or rather any contact, and will try to evade in this situation.
    
    This doesn't appear to be the case when working in the school.
    I begining working initially on a long rein and then gradually taking
    up the contact she is beginning to go well.  She learns to trust my
    hands for that short space of time.
    Partially due to circumstances and part for our sanity I alternate
    the work we do.  One day in the school and hack out the next.  An
    either/or situation is not ideal but I am reliant on fitting in
    with others and the weather for use of the school etc.
     
    Our theory so far has been that she has only been taught
    the very basics i.e. that contact on the reins means to stop and leg
    contact is the signal to go.  Have you any other suggestions ?
    
    Yes, one can most definitely teach an 'old horse'.  She's also teaching
    me which is good.  
    
    Judy.

Here is the address for videos:
    
    	The Video Schoolhouse
    	11 Garden Rd
    	Monterey, CA 93940
    
    They have a huge catalog with pages of horse videos.  They also
    have a rental program.
    
    					Jan
    

    Judy - What you want to have your mare learn is to accept the bit
    and contact on her mouth - not to be afraid of it.  If you lunge
    her with side reins (loose for a while - adjust them so that when
    her head and neck are resting, the side reins put her head one hole
    tighter than her relaxed head carriage) she will learn to accept
    the slight pressure on her mouth, without worrying about a rider's
    legs on her sides.  Eventually, when she develops her back muscles
    and hidquarters, you can tighten the side reins by one or two holes
    a week - working up to having her head & neck flexed so her nose
    is vertical to the ground.  This may take many months, so don't
    rush.  When you ride her, keep doing what you do now, let her have
    a long rein to loosen up (15 or 20 min at all 3 gaits) then for
    the rest of the hour work on keeping steady contact at all 3 gaits,
    during transitions, and on circles, turns etc.  Don't worry about
    getting her to flex at the poll now, you want to get her to accept
    the pressure on the reins, and not pull/lean against your hands,
    or throw her nose up in the air.  Eventually she will give in to
    pressure on the reins.  If she wants to stretch her head and neck
    down and forward, encourage this by allowing your arms to go forward,
    don't let the reins slip through you hands, because when she picks
    her head up again, you will have to gather your reins up again.
    
    You might try a method I mentioned earlier in this note about halting
    your mare and collecting your reins so you have no slack in the
    reins. Then set your hands on the pommel of the saddle, or on the
    horse's withers.  Don't pull back or go forward with your hands,
    you want the horse to give in to the pressure by relaxing his neck
    and mouth, and possibly flexing slightly, or putting his head down.
    Reward even the slightest relaxation or giving movement by loosening
    the reins and patting the horse on the neck.  Do this excercise
    many times during your ride, you can even do it on the trails. 
    If the horse backs up, head her towards a wall, or tell her woah
    (it helps if she knows voice commands).  This is their way of evading
    your commands.
                  
    As far as using your legs on her, you will want to use slight pressure
    from your calves but not enough to get her upset.  As she learns
    to accept pressure on the bit, you can keep more contact on the
    reins when you give a leg aid, and she will have to learn to listen
    to your legs just like she did with your hands.  Make you leg aids
    distinct so she knows what you are asking, but don't let her avoid
    it by running away with you.  I'd rather have a horse that is too
    responsive to my legs than one that needs constant nagging to move
    forward.  Good luck, and keep us informed of her progress.

    Judy - If Crunchie is doing a lot of head throwing and seems scared
    of the bit, you might try the technique I used on an abused mare
    I bought a couple of years ago.  I used a bradoon head piece to
    place a snaffle in the mare's mouth, I then used a bosal (or hackmore)
    to ride with doing lots of trot and bending.  After the mare realized
    She wasn't being hurt I attached reins to the snaffle and gradually
    started to use the snaffle going back to the bosal when ever she
    showed signs of resistance.  The mare is now a child's pony club
    mount and doing well at the local shows.  Her rehabilitation took
    about a year.  The thoroughbred off the track I retrained as a kid
    took about two years...Yes old horses can learn new tricks, it just
    takes a lot longer than starting with a youngster. 
    
    I now own a seven year old pregnant Saddlebred mare and her 6 month
    old weanling colt.  The colt is for sale but I haven't done much
    advertising yet.  For a saddlebred that colt sure can jump, he has
    to show off by jumping over the rails as I try to put the gate rails
    up.
	
    	Cher
    
    [My fiancee posted this. I'm being careful to keep her out of sensitive
     conferences... like SOAPBOX...	;-) ]

I'd like to know what people's opinions are about Quarter Horses competing in
Dressage.  How are they doing?  I've read that people are using QH/Thoroughbred
crosses as jumpers and are doing very well.  And what about Appaloosa's?  I've 
seen Appy's winning low level tests - but won't their loud coloring get frowned
on eventually at the higher levels?  

   Thanks,

	Janice

    Out west, you see a lot more QH and Apps competing in dressage,
    some at high levels.  One App that comes to mind is Moga, ridden
    by Jaye Cherry of California - this horse does Grand Prix level
    I think.  About the coloring - yes, there is some prejudice, even
    out here.  Moga is basically solid colored, with mottling around
    his muzzle.  I read that they use shoe polish around his puzzle
    to cover up the mottling - as this is considered distracting.
    
    Another unusually colored successful dressage horse is Cameo; I
    think he is from Arizona but I'm not sure.  He is also at Grand
    Prix level, and is a cream-colored QH.  A BIG one.
    
    A lot of the Apps and quarter horses that you will see in dressage,
    hunting, jumping have a high percentage of TB in them.  One thing
    this provides is SIZE.  It is easier to do well in dressage with
    a larger horse... but you can't say size is necessary because
    look at Seldom Seen, a TB/Connemara cross who is very well-known
    in the dressage world.  Although, in international competition I
    read that he did have a hard time against the bigger horses - possibly
    due to size prejudice.

    It might be possible that you have to be a little bit better if
    you ride a colored horse or a small horse.  The prejudice may not
    be intentional, but it may be there.  I know some dressage riders
    who prefer a horse with 4 white feet or no white feet, on the theory
    that they look more balanced.  Personally, I think that's going
    too far!  Of course, I'm not into this "big time" either, so I just
    don't worry about it.  I love to see the "unusual" horses succeed!

    Janice, I think that the QH/TB cross would do very well at dressage
    probably better than the pure QH, but again, it's not the breed,
    but the individual.  Appy's shouldn't get frowned upon at any level
    if the judge is doing his/her job and scoring the horse on his ability
    to perform the required movements adequately or more than adequately.
    If you compare the older type QH vs the TB type, the older, more
    heavily muscled horse, might have more difficulty being fluid and
    extending his stride, or if he is short legged, he won't be capable
    of the same length of stride as a taller horse, but then again,
    look at the conformation of the Lippizan - the classic dressage
    horse!  I've been researching Arabs for use in dressage, and have
    found a few farms that have one or two individuals that have reach
    Grand Prix level.  I have been looking at some that are for sale,
    and what I have noticed about their gaits vs. the warmbloods I ride
    (where I keep my horse) is that they are very smooth, but quicker
    or shorter in stride, they don't have that big, slow, swinging stride
    that some judges may prefer.  
    
    The QH has a good temperment for dressage and would probably do
    well with the proper training.

    re: QH and dressage
    
    At the local awards this weekend Preliminary Event Horse, 2nd and
    3rd level dressage horse awards went to 2 quarterhorses.  These
    two guys move as well as any warmblood I've seen.  The second place
    3rd level horse was th TB app cross.   The old style stock horse
    doesn't fare too well in the dressage ring or on the upper level
    event courses. I suspect this is 'cause of stride size.
    
    I think dressage is a sport where individual horses are successful,
    not particular breeds.  In this region there are successful examples
    of just about everything (including a very nice mule named Kit).
    I also haven't seen a lot of prejudice here towards *unusual* colored
    horses or small horses (the biggest horse I compete is 15.2).  I
    can understand the desire for symetrical(sp?) leg markings. The
    paint horse people have known about optical illusions affecting
    placings for a long time - or maybe this is just the engineer in
    me coming out.
    
    

    The classic QH head carriage should not present a problem, as long
    as the jowls and neck are not too thick.  Again, look at the Lippizans
    and Andalusians, even some of the warmbloods don't have high head
    carriages in a resting position.  Actually you don't want the type
    of high head carriage you see in a saddle seat horse, you want the
    horse to put more weight on his hindquarters, thus freeing up his
    shoulders; you want him to round his topline and have his nose verticle
    to the ground.  At training level, the ears should be level with
    the withers, as you move up levels, the nose will come more in line
    with the verticle, and because of the freedom that the front end
    has, the neck can elevate slightly.  It's almost like taking the
    typical western QH position and having someone push the horse together
    from the nose and hindquarters.  You might want to look for a QH
    that is more refined that the old bulldog type for your dressage
    work.
    hindquarters

  re: QH as dressage horses



       I agree with everyone  else's  reply  regarding  quarter  horses  as

  dressage  horses.   It shouldn't matter what breed your horse is; As long

  as  you  have  a  sound  horse  with  good  conformation  and  a  willing

  disposition you have a potential dressage horse.



       I know there is some prejudice in the dressage world toward smaller,

  shorter-strided  horses.   As Julie mentioned, the craze over the past 10

  years is to have a very large horse with a big sweeping stride.   When  a

  smaller,  shorter-strided  horse competes against a larger, bigger moving

  horse of equal talent, the larger horse often wins.



       It's all a matter of personal taste when it comes to some aspects of

  a  dressage  horse.   Some  people like the big solid mover who makes the

  earth move every stride.  Others like the lighter, more delicate movers.



       There are some aspects of particular  breeds  that  people  need  to

  watch  for  when buying a dressage horse.  One already has been mentioned

  for QH -- the thick neck and large jowels.  Another one is the especially

  short  legged quarter horses.  As with any horse - make sure this one can

  'track up' from behind while walking.  Another big one that comes to mind

  is  the  angle  of the pasterns.  A lot of QH's I've seen have very steep

  pasturns.  This may cause a very choppy stride.



       Just a quick comment about 'tracking up:' 'Tracking  up'  means  the

  horse's  hind  foot  print  comes  4-12 inches in front of the front foot

  print (while walking).  While  trotting,  the  horse's  hind  foot  print

  should  be  in the same spot as the diagonal front foot print.  This is a

  fairly good test for  showing  hind  end  conformation  faults,  or  just

  whether or not the horse is truly using his hind end.  Many times a horse

  who doesn't track up is just being lazy.



       In general, if you watch a horse walking briskly out in  the  field,

  he  should be tracking up.  If he doesn't, I'd be wary of buying him as a

  dressage prospect.



       On the other side of the coin, just because a horse tracks up a foot

  while  walking  doesn't mean he has a good hind end.  This horse could be

  tracking  up  so  well  because  he's  sickle  hocked.   And   his   hock

  conformation  makes  it  appear as though his hind end is underneath him.

  But in actuallity this horse has a weak hind end.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question about Quarter Horses.  This 
notesfile has been very informative.

One of the biggest problems I've been running into while trying to understand 
the concepts in dressage are the numerous methods people use.  I have 
encountered two completely opposite aiding techniques to ask for the canter.
If the results are the same in both instances - what difference can it make?
What about future training as the horse begins to progress?  Is the foundation
for this training getting established correctly?  What method sounds correct?:

method A:  to ask for the canter - use the outside leg well behind the girth
alternately squeezing and releasing with the calf and heel.  Maintain the inside
leg against the girth with light contact but inactive - sitting straight - 
maintaining even contact with the reins.This is basically how they do it 
huntseat right?

method B:  ask for a lateral bend around the inside leg by moving the outside
leg behind the girth and maintaining a firm contact with the calf.  The inside
leg is at the girth asking for impulsion by squeezing and releasing until the
horse departs into the canter - and continues to maintain the canter by 
alternating squeezes with the outside leg - neither leg changes position.

Who votes for A?  B? None of the above???  I'd like to hear what people think.
Feel free to elaborate if you have time (ie: what should the other aids be?)

Thanks,

	JB

    The Method B that you described is closer to the preferred way 
    of asking for canter as you get into the higher levels.  You use
    more inside leg to keep the impulsion, and the outside leg just
    lightly asks for the lead.  The only part I objected to in method
    B is the alternating squeezes with the outside leg.  Once the horse
    is in canter, you continue to use the inside leg at the girth to
    keep the impulsion.  This is especially important when doing circles,
    and as the circles get smaller, the inside leg usually needs to
    be stronger.
    
    Both methods will work, but like you said, Method A is more of a
    hunt seat aid, although many horses are taught this way to begin
    with, and gradually have to get used to the other method (this was
    the case with my horse, and now that I am switching methods, he
    will occassionally take the wrong lead if I am too strong with my
    inside leg)
    
    -Julie-

    I agree with Julie about method B.  In all the lateral work at higher
    levels you use the inside leg for implusion, too.  Once the horse
    knows this at the canter, he'll understand it when you get to working
    on lateral moves.
    
    						Jan
    

    Method B seems more acceptable, but either works if all you're
    interested in is cue training.  I've also seen active outside hand
    and outside leg used.  I suppose that just about any system would
    work if applied consistently.
    
    Personally, I use an active inside leg at the girth and a little
    inside rein (just about none on the advanced horses).  In dressage
    the canter depart must be straight (especially if you're contemplating
    the lead changes required of the upper levels.  I feel that applying
    the outside leg behind the girth in a canter depart (except when
    correcting a horse that swings his quarters to the outside) creates
    more problems than it solves by inducing an incorrect bend.
    
    The one aspect of canter departs that is often overlooked is timing.
    In each gait there is a point in the footfall sequence where the
    horse is most able to make a coordinated, balanced depart on the
    correct lead.  Back when I was showing hunter seat, the riders were
    taught canter departs from the rising trot by switching from the
    outside to the inside diagonal a couple of strides before asking
    for the canter.  Theory was that this put your seat in the saddle
    at the most opportune time to apply *the aids*. It's a real simple
    technique and seems to work well even on very green horses. 
    
    The timing aspect seems to be more important as the difficulty of the
    movements increases, but there isn't much reason why a horse whose
    got basic turn signals and brakes can't learn to leg yield at a
    walk in less than 30 minutes (usually 2 short sessions in may barn).
    True, the movements aren't show ring perfect but the *kids* do a lot
    better than you might think.
    
    I tend to look for a way to encourage the horse to do the correct thing
    on its own rather than drilling a set of cues into its memory. Training
    seems to progress faster and is a lot less stressful if you can
    find a way to make the correct behavior the easiest way.    

    Does anyone have information on how a horse used for competition
    (vs. breeding) could be used in figuring out taxes (deductions,
    etc.)?  Do you have to be competing at a certain level or at certain
    recognized events?  If you buy a horse for a particular purpose
    (ie. eventing or dressage) and he is injured or doesn't do well
    could it be a tax loss?  I suppose this could get fairly complicated.
    
    Thanks in advance for any replies.

    
    		MAYBE  we should make a new note for tax deductions.
    		
    	I know alot of us have some info in it....maybe??
    if we brainstorm maybe we can all learn some things...
    		
    	.98 re  there is a horse acountant in andover. she can tell
    you what u can and can't do.
    		wendy.
    

    You will have practically no luck trying to deduct from your taxes
    expenses for your horse unless it has to do with your business or
    profession. The IRS is very twitchy on "Hobby" businesses. A second
    business or profession must make serious attempts to be profitable.
    If you are a part time riding instructor, and declare to the IRS
    the income you received from instructing, and can show a serious
    attempt to make part of your living from this activity and used
    your horse in these lessons, you might have a case to make to the
    IRS. Since nobody can earn a living from competing in dressage or
    eventing, I don't think the IRS will be sympathetic, even if they
    did understand the question! Consult your tax advisor.
                                 
    As far as a casualty loss is concerned, if your horse is stolen
    or killed in an accident you might be able to claim the loss against
    your taxes. If your horse keels over and dies from whatever illness,
    or is injured for whatever reason you are out of luck in more ways 
    than one. The IRS doesn't care that you can't ride him anymore.
    Consult your tax advisor again.
    
    Remember that the Tax Laws are changing for 1987 and subsequent
    years. However these changes mostly place more restrictions on
    deductions and other loopholes.
    
    again
    

    Yes, use great caution in deducting your horse expenses unless you
    are making a serious attempt at an honest to goodness horse business.
    I am able to deduct show expenses and a certain percentage of the
    everyday up keep of my horses, but only because I have 2 corporations
    set up for a teaching and boarding business.  Even with this....my
    accountant is very fussy about what expenses can actually be deducted
    on my own horses as obviously some portion of the horse will be
    used on a personal pleasure basis and, therefore, non-deductible.
    If you already do some teaching or boarding, it certainly is worthwhile
    to set yourself up in an organized business....if you want to talk
    about it further...give me a call!
    
    Jeannie
    

    I received my NEDA newsletter yesterday and they have printed the
    new 1987 dressage tests (training level - fourth level).  If there
    are non-NEDA members who are interested in the new tests, send me
    mail telling me your mail stop and I'll be glad to send you a copy
    of them.
    
    I haven't had much time to look at them, but most have some changes.
    
    						Jan
    

    re :.102. I haven't received my newsletter yet, by any chance do
    they have any show dates listed? I have been asked to commit to
    something in May and I can't until I know of some of the dates!
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    Linda
    

Well, this notes file has been a bit quiet lately.  So, maybe I can stir up
a little action with this topic.

My mare and I are working at training level dressage.  She gets quite
strong at times.  We both had a long layoff due to having babies (both of
us), so she should settle down with some work.  Right now I have her in a
very un-dressage-like bit - a double twisted wire snaffle, in a plain
caveson.  Obviously I cannot show her in this bit (in dressage).  Before you
all wince too much, remember that the double twisted wire bit is broken in 
two places, so in some ways this is a less severe bit than a single twisted 
wire - the pressure is less concentrated.  Enough apologies.

Besides the fact that this is an "illegal" bit, it is not working for us quite
as well lately.  Carillon is opening her mouth a lot, it seems like she might
be trying to get her tongue over the bit.  She does this mouth opening act
whether she is on contact or not.

My plan is to try a thin smooth snaffle, or possibly a french mouth snaffle.
Then, maybe I will try a different caveson - flash or a dropped noseband.  I
know that bits and cavesons don't work like magic, you need the work from the
legs, hands, and seat, but I'm trying to make it a little easier.  Another 
factor is that I need to know I have a way of getting her attention when she 
starts getting wild, and the thick eggbutt snaffle that I have also used in 
the past, unfortunately does not meet this need.

Any ideas, opinions, etc.?  Any pros and cons regarding the nosebands?

    I had a mare who had the exact same type of problem. I started riding
    her on a dee-ring and a flash (I had been using a french mouth and
    a standard cavesson) and she was about 300% better. This mare also
    absolutely freaked out when there were bugs around her thus making
    the problem twice as hard to deal with. The dee ring and the cavesson
    was a tremendous help and also proper conditioning and frequent
    breaks after particularly good movements made all the difference
    in the world.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Linda
    

    While I don't ride dressage, I've had similar problems.  A bit that
    I've just gotten to solve a similar problem where I sometimes need
    a little more control that a twisted wire gives, but is only there
    when you need it for comfort, is a fish-back.  I don't know if it
    has another name but I got it from Schneider's under that name.
    It is a smooth broken snaffle with a very slight ridge on one side.
    Under normal contact it is a smooth snaffle but with a little extra
    pressure, the mouth rolls over slightly and presents the ridge to
    the horse's bars.  I got it from an Arabian trainer who uses them
    in place of a twisted wire.  It is slightly less severe than wire.
    
    Bob
    

    I've had really good luck with a medium thickness full-cheek snaffle
    with a flash noseband for a mare that had the same
    symptoms...unfortunately, the problem never seems to go away
    completely..but you'll find some combination that works better than
    others.  Also, with this same mare....during the winter and other
    out of control times...I used a rubber pelham... I found the transition
    from this to the full cheek w/ flash worked pretty well when I wanted
    to hit the dressage shows.
    
    
    Jeannie

    The more schooling you do with your current equipment and the more
    confrontations you and your horse have, will be unproductive, because
    the horse will eventually become resistant to the twisted wire bit,
    and then where do you go?  Your best method will be to school the
    horse at home in the same bit/noseband combination that you will
    show with so that there are no surprises when you get to the show
    and have to use the correct equipment there.
    
    You will have to retrain your mare to be responsive to a less severe
    bit, and to your leg and hands.  You should use a medium width (hollow)
    snaffle (single-jointed) bit.  The egg-butt is most common, and
    the only thing a Dee ring or full-cheek offers is the straight sides
    to help in turning the horse's head, because the straight edge puts
    more pressure on the side of the mouth when the opposite rein is
    pulled.  As for nosebands, depending on the shape and length of
    you mare's head, a drop, flash or figure 8 noseband should be used,
    and adjusted properly!  The flash and figure 8 serve to keep the
    horse from crossing his jaw, and the drop is used more to keep the
    horse's mouth shut (sound's like what you'd need).  Make sure the
    drop noseband is not too low over the horse's nostrils so that is
    cuts off or interferes with her breathing.
    
    You should longe your mare with this new equipment before you ride
    for about 15 minutes, with and without side reins.  The purpose
    of the side reins is to get your mare to give in to the pressure
    on the bit by rounding her back and softening at the jaw and poll,
    thus positioning her head in the 'flexed' position.  If you are
    working at training level, the horse's ears should be level with
    her withers, many people think that the poll should be the highest
    point, but this is not true until first level.  
    
    When you ride her with the new equipment, practice many halt to
    walk to halt transitions, and use very light pressure on the reins.
    The important thing is to let her mouth soften up again, and be
    responsive to the snaffle bit.  The best exercise to try at the
    halt is to shorten your reins so you have complete contact with
    her mouth, then set your hands on her withers and brace your back
    slightly, you need to apply light pressure on the reins, so you
    shorten them a little more than normal, because you are setting
    your hands, not pulling back over your hips.  You want the horse
    to give in to the pressure like she did on the longe, by softening
    the jaw, flexing the poll and rounding the back.  As soon as you
    feel the reins become slack because she has done the above, reward
    her by relaxing your arms, hands and back, and ask her to walk forward.
    Many horses tend to backup at first, this is ok, because they will
    eventually stop since you are not using your legs or pulling back
    on the reins.  Do this exercise at various times while riding to
    remind the horse about softening and giving in to your hands.
    
    Progress to transitions at all gaits, walk to trot to walk to halt
    to trot, etc.  and do many changes of direction and circles.  Circles
    keep the horse bent and round whereas on the straight sides, they
    tend to speed up and take advantage of the reins.  You must praise
    your horse when she responds to your new lighter aids so that she
    knows she is doing the right thing.  If you event your horse, you
    might still want to use a stronger bit for cross country, but keep
    the drop noseband.  You don't want the horse to learn that she can
    avoid contact by opening her mouth.
    
    Hope this helps, and keep us posted on any progress or problems.
    
    -Julie-

    First a dumb question.  Is the noseband you are using now adjusted 
    tight enough?
    
    There's a couple of reasons horses open there mouths and get their
    toungues over the bit.  Some, like my morgan colt just like to play
    but most are uncomfortable.  Perhaps the break from riding has let
    your mares mouth become sensitive like a green horses.  You might
    try a rubber bit (they are legal) or wrapping a regular snaffle
    with some latex rubber bandage.  Another idea might be to change
    to a bit that places pressure in a different place.  For example,
    from a regular jointed snaffle to a french snaffle or back the other
    way.
    
    The french snaffle has worked well for me in a very similar situation.
    I have a morgan mare that I regularly ride in a copper double twisted
    snaffle, beacuse she's happy in it.  Don't ask why, I don't know,
    but it probably has something to do with being an ex-park horse
    and having a nasty scar from a tongue tie.
    I show her training level and 1st level in a Dr. Bristol (kind of
    like a french snaffle but with a more round center link) and a flash
    noseband.  In any case, the french snaffle works better for her
    than a regular snaffle.  Maybe this is because it has two joints.
    
    I use some sort of controlling noseband on most of my horses.  Not
    because they currently have mouth problems, but because I'd like
    to keeps things that way.  I use either a figure 8 or a flash. 
    The figure 8 is legal in the dressage ring, although it looks a
    little silly, and works better for the event horses. I make sure
    that they are adjusted as loosely as possible and still work.
    After all the idea is to limit the amount of movement, not tie 
    the poor critters mouth shut.  How can you expect a horse to flex
    its jaw with its mouth clamped shut? The flash is the least expensive
    alternative since you can purchase the type that buckle onto your
    current noseband.
    
    Once you have a noseband/bit combination that works, I find it helpful
    to avoid any serious schooling for a week or two.  I think we dressage
    enthusiasts sometimes push too hard for correctness and end up creating
    a lot of tension and problems.  When you do get to schooling, you
    might try lots of trot circles and serpentines.  The serpentines
    especially seem to help loosen a horse up.
    
    All this assumes a good rider of course.  Make sure you are riding
    from back to front, as they say, and with a quiet hand. Above all
    have patience.
    
    Good luck,
    Maureen

    
    
    I recently read an article about bit types and found that many horses
    have such a shallow mouth that a standard single jointed snaffle
    may poke them in the roof of the mouth.  In such a case, a Dr. Bristol
    was recommended.
    
    I tried this with my gelding and discovered that he was much more
    confortable in the Dr. Bristol.  The poor creature--I had been tying
    his mouth shut to keep him from gaping and all he was trying to
    do was avoid the bit poking him.  
    
    Now we are both happier.

    
    Mary Jo Hoepner

    Does anyone have a list of the changes to the 1987 Dressage tests
    who would be able to publish them here so us slow folks who take
    a long time to memorize tests could start soon rather than having
    to wait until the various Omnibus's come out? I only need the Training
    and First level changes however if someone could list the changes
    for all the tests, I am sure it would be appreciated!
    
    Thanks VERY much in advance to whoever has this information!!!!
    
    Linda
    

	Well, here's  the  scoop  on  6 of the dressage tests - Training
    Tests  1-3  and  First  Level  1-3. They are the first 6 in my USCTA
    omnibus.  (Sorry, no TT4 or FL4.) 


	Differences between 1983 and 1987 dressage tests

	Training Test 1, 
	    1) the "track to the right/left" has been moved from 
	       movement 2 to movement 1.

	Training Test 2 : 
	    1) the "track to the right/left" has been moved from 
	       movement 2 to movement 1.
	    2) halt at X, not G

	Training Test 3: 
	    1) the "track to the right/left" has been moved from 
	       movement 2 to movement 1.
	    2) the halt (1983 movement 6) has been removed
	    3) movement 8 (1983) contained canter depart and circle.
	       1987 (movement 7) contains only the canter depart. 
	       the circle has been moved the next movement in 1987

	First Level Test 1:
	    1) the "track to the right/left" has been moved from 
	       movement 2 to movement 1.
	    2) movement 6 has changed from "lengthen stride in walk"
	       to "free walk on long rein"

	First Level Test 2:
	    1) the "track to the right/left" has been moved from 
	       movement 2 to movement 1.
	    2) the serpentine and first lengthen trot have swapped 
	       places (1983 - do lengthen, then do serpentine,
	       1987 - do serpentine, then lengthen)
	    3) halt at X, not G

	First Level Test 3:
	    1) the "track to the right/left" has been moved from 
	       movement 2 to movement 1.
	    2) "turn left, turn right" (movement 2) has been replaced
	       with "track right, lengthen stride, working trot"
	    3) movement 4 ( I - circle right, etc) has been replaced
	       with "L-R leg yield right"
	    4) lengthen in movement 5 done in opposite direction
	    5) movement 6 - leg yield right replaced with circle right
	    6) movement 7 lengthen stride in trot replaced with leg 
	       yield left
	    7) halt is now movement 8
	    8) lengthen stride in walk has been replaced with free 
	       walk on long rein

	    (for this test, many changes at beginning, none at end)

	The 1987 tests for Training Level 1-3 and First Level 1-3 are on
    the following pages.



    
		    1987 Training Level Test 1
			(Novice Level)

1   A	    Enter working trot (rising)
    X	    Halt. Salute.
	    Proceed working trot (rising)
	    
2   C	    Track to the right
    B	    Circle right 20 meters
    B	    Working trot (sitting)

3   Between
    F & A   Working canter, right lead
    
4   E	    Circle right 20 meters
    Between
    E & H   Working trot (rising)

5   CMEK    Working walk

6   K	    Working trot (rising)
    B	    Circle left 20 meters
    B	    Working trot (sitting)
    
7   Between
    M & C   Working canter, left lead
    
8   E	    Circle left 20 meters
    Between
    E & K   Working trot (rising)
    
9   A	    Down center line
    X	    Halt. Salute

--------------------------------------------------------
	    Leave arena at free walk on long rein at A



    
		    1987 Training Level Test 2
			(Novice Level)

1   A	    Enter working trot (rising)
    X	    Halt. Salute.
	    Proceed working trot (rising)
	    
2   C	    Track to the left
    A	    Circle left 20 meters
    B	    Working trot (sitting)

3   Between
    M & C   Working canter, left lead
    
4   C	    Circle left 20 meters
    E       Working trot (sitting)

5   A       Working walk
    F-E	    Free walk on long rein
    E	    Working walk

6   H	    Working trot (rising)
    C	    Circle right 20 meters
    B	    Working trot (sitting)
    
7   Between
    F & A   Working canter, right lead
    
8   A	    Circle right 20 meters
    E       Working trot (rising)
    
9   MXK	    Change rein

10  A	    Down center line
    X	    Halt. Salute

--------------------------------------------------------
	    Leave arena at free walk on long rein at A



    
		    1987 Training Level Test 3
			(Training Level)

1   A	    Enter working trot (sitting)
    X	    Halt. Salute.
	    Proceed working trot (sitting)
	    
2   C	    Track to the right
    B	    Circle right 20 meters

3   F	    Working canter, right lead

4   E	    Circle right 20 meters
    H	    Working trot (sitting)

5   C	    Working walk
    MXK	    Free walk on long rein
    K	    Working walk

6   F	    Working trot (sitting)
    B	    Circle left 20 meters

7   M	    Working canter, left lead

8   E	    Circle left 20 meters
    K	    Working trot (sitting)

9   FXH	    Working trot (rising)
    H	    Working trot (sitting)
    
10  MXK	    Change rein

11  A	    Down center line
    X	    Halt. Salute

--------------------------------------------------------
	    Leave arena at free walk on long rein at A



    
		    1987 First Level Test 1
			(Training Level)

1   A	    Enter working trot (sitting)
    X	    Halt. Salute.
	    Proceed working trot (sitting)
	    
2   C	    Track to the right
    B	    Circle right 15 meters

3   KXM	    Lengthen stride in trot (rising)
    M	    Working trot (sitting)

4   E	    Circle left 15 meters

5   A	    Halt 5 seconds, proceed working walk

6   FXH	    Free walk on long rein
    H	    Working wwalk

7   C	    Working trot (sitting)
    M	    Working canter, right lead

8   B	    Circle right 15 meters

9   KXM	    Change rein
    X	    Working trot sitting
    M	    Working canter, left lead

10  E	    Circle left 15 meters

11  FXH	    Change rein
    X	    Working trot (sitting)

12  MXK	    Lengthen stride in trot (rising)
    K	    Working trot (sitting)

13  A	    Down center line
    X	    Halt. Salute

--------------------------------------------------------
	    Leave arena at free walk on long rein at A



    
		    1987 First Level Test 2
		    (Preliminary and Young Riders Level)

1   A	    Enter working trot (sitting)
    X	    Halt. Salute.
	    Proceed working trot (sitting)
	    
2   C	    Track to the left
    E	    Half circle left 10 meters returning to track at H

3   B	    Half circle right 10 meters returning to track at M

4   C-A	    Serpentine of 3 loops, width of arena

5   FXH	    Lengthen stride in trot (rising)
    H	    Working trot (sitting)

6   C	    Halt 5 seconds, proceed working walk

7   MXK	    Free walk on long rein
    K	    Working wwalk

8   A	    Working trot (sitting)
    F	    Working canter, left lead

9   B	    Circle left 15 meters

10  HXF	    Change rein
    X	    Working trot (sitting)
    F	    Working canter, right lead

11  B	    Circle right 15 meters

12  C	    Working trot (sitting)
    MXK	    Lengthen stride in trot (rising)
    K	    Working trot (sitting)

13  A	    Down center line
    X	    Halt. Salute

--------------------------------------------------------
	    Leave arena at free walk on long rein at A



    
		    1987 First Level Test 3
	        (Preliminary and Young Riders Level)

1   A	    Enter working trot (sitting)
    X	    Halt. Salute.
	    Proceed working trot 
	    
2   C	    Track to the right
    MXK	    Lengthen stride in trot (rising)
    K	    Working trot (sitting)

3   A	    Down center line
    L	    Circle left 10 meters

4   L-R	    Leg yield right

5   HXF	    Lengthen stride in trot (sitting)
    F	    Working trot (sitting)

6   A	    Down center line
    L	    Circle right 10 meters

7   L-S	    Leg yield left

8   C	    Halt 5 seconds, proceed working walk

9   MXK	    Free walk on long rein
    K	    Working wwalk

10  A	    Working trot (sitting)
    F	    Working canter, left lead

11  B	    Circle left 10 meters

12  H-K	    Lengthen stride in canter
    K	    Working canter

13  FXH	    Change rein, at X change of lead through trot

14  B	    Circle right 10 meters

15  K-H	    Lengthen stride in canter
    H	    Working canter

16  MXK	    Change rein, at X working trot (sitting)

17  A	    Down center line
    X	    Halt. Salute

--------------------------------------------------------
	    Leave arena at free walk on long rein at A



    re : .-1 THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, Ms Romberg!!!
    
    Linda

    Does anyone know of other publications (besides the Pedlar, and
    the WantAdvertiser) that are compiliations of classified ads where
    I could look for horses for sale?  I've been calling farms in the
    area and looking in local newspapers, but I'm discouraged by the
    lack of quality horses that I've seen so far.
    
    Any help would be appreciated,
    Julie 

Julie,

I assume you know about the Chronicle of the Horse - it has lots
of ads in the back.  If you don't subscribe, you can probably snag
an issue from someone back there, or I would be happy to send you a
couple of recent issues.

Also, thanks to you and everyone else for the bit/noseband suggestions
for my mare.  Between rounding up the equipment and the nasty weather
we've been having in Colo., I haven't tried anything new yet.  I know
your suggestion to use the medium-weight snaffle is really the most
"correct", but I think I will probably head that way via the thin snaffle
first - a bit of a confidence-builder for the rider (me) who would
really rather avoid some of the confrontations I have endured in the past.
When I really think about this, it seems that a horse's response to a bit
is more mental than physical - there's a limit to the effect that a piece
of metal in a horse's mouth can physically have on the rest of its body, 
so it depends more on the training associated with it...

Something I hadn't thought of, that was mentioned in these replies, was
that there is a good chance my mare's mouth is more sensitive due to the
layoff.  Which would explain why I still get good results control-wise
when I need it, but why she just does not seem to be comfortable.  I don't
want her to feel continually punished.

Anyway, hopefully I will have good progress reports in the future, and thanks
for all of the suggestions.

Sharon

    in response to 10.115,
    Julie have you tried any listing services?  Barbara Breed in
    Pembroke, NH has a listing service, she specializes in Appaloosas,
    but does handle all breeds.  The Equine exchange has horses listed,
    I believe there is also a listing service that advertises in that
    publication.  Maybe you could place an ad in the pedlar and state
    what you are looking for.
    Hope I've helped some.
    
    Good luck
    Marianne
    

    How about the Chronicle....I can send you a couple of my recent
    issues if you would like...it comes out weekly.  Also the Equine
    Exchange is generated out of Maynard and comes out weekly.  You
    can pick them up free at feed stores and tack shops.  I'll have
    to read back to refresh my mind as to what you were looking for
    in a prospect...I often hear of something.
    
    Jeannie

    Thanks for all the suggestions so far.  I've looked through the
    Equine Exchange but there wasn't much the past couple of issues.
    I'm waiting for the new Pedlar to come out since it's the warmblood
    issue.  If you think of anything else, let me know.
    
    Has anyone heard of Hubert Rohrer, a FEI Level Judge?  He is
    giving a clinic at the end of March in Epping, NH, and I wanted
    to know if he is good & worth going to?

    I thought we might start a discussion about clinics:
    Who have people taken clinics with and what did you think.
    Would you recommend that other people take a clinic with
    that instructor/trainer etc.  Was the clinic designed to
    help the rider and/or the horse.
    
    I went to a Sally Swift clinic last week and I thought it
    was very good.  She expects that you've read her book, and there
    was a 3 hr. lecture session the monday before the clinic where
    we practiced many of the topics in the book without the horses.
    Most of what she teaches helps the rider, which in turn helps
    the horse, because when we are relaxed, then the horse is able
    to relax.  The only drawback to her clinics is that they fill up
    fast, and they are during the middle of the week when most people
    are working.  I would definitely recommend her clinic to anyone
    who has read the book and is interested in her concepts/approaches.
    
    Lets hear from the rest of you...

I've taken  clinics with or worked under the following people... Some
were dressage clinics, others were jumping or eventing type clinics.
I've used the five star method to describe what my opinion of them was for 
both the horse and rider.

Instructor           #clinics taken      value for horse       value for rider
---------             --------------      ---------------       ---------------

Janet Black            1 clinic            *                     *
Major Hector Carmona   worked under        *****                 *****
Kathy Connelly         worked under        ****                  ****
Renata Lansberg        1 clinic            *                     *
Cindy Mikolka          1 clinic            ****                  ****
Lockie Richards        1 clinic            ****                  *****
Colonel H.L.M. Van Shaik 3 clinics         ****                  ****
Julie Ulrich           4 clinics           ***                   ***
George Williams        woked under         *****                 *****
Jimmy Gornall          2 clinics           **                    **
Denny Emerson          1 clinic            *                     *
Rosita Proux           1 clinic            **                    **
Dr. Duffy              5 clinics           ***                   ***
Ian Silitch            worked under        ****                  ****
Bill Woods             1 clinic            ***                   ***
Micheal Poulin         1 clinic            ****                  **

If anyone would like explanations as to why I liked or disliked particular
clinics please feel free to ask.  Some instructors were totally intimidating
and other instructors just couldn't handle a group lesson.  The intructors
I respected the most are the ones I ended up working under.  

Thanks for the info/ratings on clinics, Melinda - I'm filing it away for future
reference...  Another note mentioned this topic was getting inactive - so I
thought I'd ask a few questions to see if I can get people writing.  I really
look forward to this topic, and have learned ALOT (just a few short months ago
I was mispronouncing Trakehner and asking people what a flash noseband was....)
Thanks to Jan Daddamio, I've located a new instructor, Mary Howard, and am
really excited about this program.  Mary also has clinics (2 of which are 
happening this Saturday, Sunday and Monday.)

Possible discussion topics:

1.)  What is the appropriate clothing for dressage tests?  Is a hunt coat 
acceptable?  What colors are preferred?  

2.)  I noticed at a schooling show that some of the riders had their test
read to them?  What are the restrictions?  (IE: just at schooling shows?)

3.)  What saddle do people prefer?  I have an all-purpose and have been told
I sit too far forward - can another (dressage-only) saddle help?

thanks,

	JB	

    I have taken 1 clinic with Hector Carmona and got more out of seeing
    him work the horse he brought than the riding part (it was a group
    and I do like private lessons better!).  I have also watched a
    clinic given by Nuno Olivera - he had a unique approach in concentrating
    on what things the horse could do well.  Your horse could be doing
    4th level trot work and 1st level canter work - he wouldn't hold
    the horse back in one gait till it caught up with all of them, but
    would keep going with what it did well.
    
    Mostly I have worked with Dr. Van Schaik (not Colonel).  I started
    lessons with him about 6 years ago.  He is really good about getting
    you in the proper, most effective position.  However, until you're
    there, you don't do much else.  This might discourage some people,
    but you know you're doing well when he asks you to start doing new
    things.  His attitude towards the horses is great - you don't force
    them ever.  He is always kind to the horses.  Another point he has
    is that you do thinks correctly in the classical way (i.e. Spanish
    Riding School).  For example, shoulder-in is always done on 3 tracks.
    If you show and most of the judges expect 4 tracks, then he'll tell
    you to do it correctly and take the lower score you might get. 
    He won't compromise on what is correct and what judges want to see
    which is something I appreciate even though I do show some.
    
    Dr. Van Schaik only does clinics now and his school has been taken
    over by Sheila McLevedge (his assistant for 12 years).  Sheila is
    an excellent teacher and also does clinics.  She is also able to
    ride your horse and find out what the problems are which he cannot
    do (he's 87 now, I think!).  One thing that Sheila is really excellent
    at is telling you how to ride your horse to get the most out of
    it.  One of my horses has been in training with her all winter and
    I have been going for lessons, too.  Sheila wants people to be able
    to ride their horse as well as she can when they take the horse
    home and will spend the time to teach you how.
    
    The only other instructor that I have spent time with is Sally Swift.
    She is excellent for teaching you how to release tension in your
    body to help your horse go better.  Most people end up with a fairly
    good position, but she doesn't stress this as much as Dr. Van Schaik
    does.  In fact, some people do flop around, but if their horse is
    going OK, then that's fine with Sally.  Her work helps me in working
    with Dr. Van Schaik and Sheila.  If you're serious about showing
    you may need more than what Sally can give you, but you'll have
    an excellent foundation to build on!  Both she and Dr. Van Schaik
    have written books, and there are also two videotapes from Sally
    which come close to being at a clinic with her.
    
    I'm beginning to sound like an advertisement here, so I'll quit.
    I've heard other people's opinions of several of the instructors
    listed in .121, but won't list them since I have no first hand
    knowledge.  I'm interested in hearing about other rider's experiences
    with their instructors.
    
    						Jan
     

    I need some input from you folks out there.
    
    Problem:  Mare who has been ridden for YEARS in drawreins LEANS
    on the riders hands.  As a result she pulls herself along with the
    front end at all gaits.  At the walk you can walk her on a loose
    rein without loss of balance.  At the trot, if you "drop" her, she
    charges along (seemingly to help her backend catch up with the front
    end which is desparately looking for support).
    
    Solution:  ???  What are your ideas on exercises to get her back
    on her rear and off the hands?
    
    Thanks for any and all input.  (This is not my horse, praise the
    Lord!)
    
    Mary Jo
    

    Janice,  to answer your questions in order:
    
    1) Appropriate attire for dressage shows is breeches, boots (but
       not field boots with the laces), hard hat (hunt cap), shirt with
       collar or stock tie, gloves and hunt coat.
       Hunt coats are acceptable and you don't see people wearing the
       long tail coats until the higher levels, same with the top hats.
       The traditional colors are black coat, hat and boots, and white
       breeches, shirt and collar or tie, but I've seen many people
       show in other colors (like you'd see at a hunter show).  As far
       as I know, you cannot be penalized for it (at least at the lower
       levels).  Glove colors are optional.
    
    2) You can have your tests read to you at any type of show, and
       you are not penalized for it.
       
    3) The type of saddle I have is a County Continental, it's their
       dressage model that has less knee area padding than the Competitor.
       It places your seatbones right in the center of the saddle, and
       you sit pretty deep.  I think it's pretty comfortable too.  I
       used to ride in my XC saddle, and it does position you too far forward,
       plus the knee rolls were too thick.  
                                                                   
    

    reply to .124
    
    Is the rider in a lesson program at the moment?  If the horse is
    running thru the drawreins, I would suggest they come off for the
    moment, go back to basics, walk-trot, don't even bother to
    introduce the canter yet.  Endless circles at the trot, serpentines,
    figure 8's, can only help.  This is pretty basic, maybe others
    can expand more thought.  I know from my own experience on horses
    like this you must have an awfully tight seat and be able to 
    encourage them to use their hind end and get off the front, the
    more you hold onto the mouth ie. thru drawreins, harsh bit, the
    more you reinforce the problem.
    
    -Marianne-
    

 re: 10.125


    
>    2) You can have your tests read to you at any type of show, and
>       you are not penalized for it.
       
	 If memory  serves me correctly, if you are going to do combined
     training,  you  had  better  memorize  your  test.  Having  it read
     eliminates you from the competition.


	 As far as saddles, if you want to be "totally proper", you need
     a  dressage  saddle  to do dressage. However, there are many people
     out there who are riding in their all purpose or jumping saddles. 

    re: .124
    
	 transitions -  up  and  down between walk, trot and halt. Don't
     give  the horse a chance to bear down. Keep 'er guessing as to what
     is  coming  next.  As soon as she starts hanging, x-ition downward.
     Also,  as  stated  in  .126,  figures  - try to get her to keep her
     attention on what she is being asked to do, not what she thinks you
     are doing.

	 another thing  to  try  is cavaletti. just poles in an arc that
     you have to trot over in a circle in varying diameters.

    	 leg-yielding - start at the walk.

    For further details on clothing and what is appropriate at each
    level, see the AHSA rule book.  The dressage section has everything
    you need to know (however, they don't have the tests, I think those
    are composed by the USDF or USDF and AHSA, not sure).  You can have
    tests read at dressage shows except in qualifying and FEI classes.
    There may also be rules against reading at Horse Trials and 3 day
    events because I just read an article on having a test read being
    a way to be eliminated and it was written by an event rider.  The
    AHSA rule book also tells you when you can and can't carry a whip.
    
    As for saddles, I use a Stalker Raven (copy of Barnsby Raven with
    a slightly wider tree).  I used to have a County Competitor but
    found that there wasn't enough paddling under the cantle to make
    it sit properly on my horse.  If I didn't have 2 foams pads under
    it, it would tip me backwards.  The Stalker Raven has a lot of padding
    under the cantle and sits me in the center.  Is it just your upper
    body that's too far forward?  I used to do that.  You can probably
    correct that in your own saddle unless it's the saddle that's really
    pushing you forward.  I used to lean forward because I was insecure.

    						Jan

    this is the last note i should be in putting my two cents worth,
    but anyway.......
    
    		as a western rider (please dont send hate mail)
    if that were a  horse *I* was working, the first thing would
    be to get him/her off the draw reins(of course) and long extended
    trot after you have him warmed up (walking).
    and just trot those feet right off.
    dont worry about the speed, if he breaks bring him from the canter
    back down to a extended trot again.  and let him carry himself his
    own natural way. this might take at least two weeks or more.
    dont ask him to anything else, no backing, no halting, just trot.
    let him reach out, this also works for very a hot horse that wont get
    his head down. 
    *BUT stay off his mouth!!!!!   after the two weeks or so, start
    applying pressure and push him up thru the bit, he should round
    out. once he collects , relax and drop your reins. and ask
    him to collect for a longer time each time you ask.once hes gotten
    this far then.....
    start with bending and rounding on the circles.
    but if hes not in condition to collect dont exspect him to 
    be flexiable to keep himself together on the circles
    
    		hope this helps and hope ive explained it right.
    
    			wendy.
    

I agree with everyone's suggestions on how to help the horse suffering from 
draw-rein-itis ... especially reply .130 (great western influence there!)

I recommend following .130 's suggestions before doing anything else.  Also,
does the horse get turned out much?  The first place a horse develops balance
is out on his own...


Melinda

    Thanks for all the input.  I'm sure it all will be useful.  
    
    1.  The horse has NOT been used with draw reins for at least a couple
        of months.  So we have made progress there.
    2.  The horse is turned out every day.  (Starting last week.)
    3.  We will try just letting the horse trot around at whatever speed
        until she finds something better to do with her body (in God
        we trust).
    4.  And we will try all the other suggestions as the opportunity
        arises.
    
    (--flame on--)
    I sure wish people could have access to draw reins only by a registered
    prescription (like any other controlled substance).  Then  before they
    use them make them retrain at least 3 horses who were improperly
    trained by someone who used draw reins inappropriately.   
    (--flame offf--)
    
    Thanks again and keep those comments coming.
    
    Mary Jo 
    

    
   
    
    re:131  You like that huh? [western influence] ;^)
    
     
    		
    WAIT...NO..... 
    
    RE.132
    	<we will try just letting the horse trot around at whatever
    speed intil she finds something better to do with her body>
    
    	sorry... but thats not the attitude you want to show her.
    extend the *TROT*                                 
    
    heres why....... first of all you are extending the trot so that
    she starts using the muscles thats she not used to using.
    after that you are collecting her, and giving her speed at the same
    time. now.... lets look at it a differnt way...
    	think forward.. and DRIVE no matter what. if you dont give her impluse
    on the back end and she breaks the momentum she is going to start
    po*ping out in back and you will be just as bad as the person who used
    drawreins.                    
    	
    		just wanted to make sure you understood what i said
    ;^)
    
    		wendy                                 

    Sorry for being flippant(sp).  
    
    I knew what you meant.  I just expect that when she is ALLOWED to go
    forward she is going to fall on her face (literally).  In the past if
    she has stumbled, she keeps her head and next in its fixed position and
    procedes to tip forward over her front legs.  So I am only partially
    joking about her "figuring out what to do with her body".  It will be
    an effort for her to extend at first. 
    
    Thanks for the correction.

    
    RE.134 no you weren't being flippant.
    its sometimes hard to picture how the horse sounds like hes moving
    without actually seeing him. if the horse is going to be hard
    to extend out, thats all the better.I think it will teach her more.
    i know i had a heck of a time with some horses because all they 
    wanted to do was gallop, so we galloped [all out dead run] til they
    decided it was too much work.
    anyway, i remember previous you talked about her falling after you
    dropped her.  Laterally?  well i thought it was just an expression.
    anyway i'm wondering if she doing that because of something else?
    just my thought!
    
    		well enuff rambling
                  wendy 
    
    

    Literally (as opposed to virtually) she falls on her face.  Kind of
    like when a kid is playing with a plastic horse statue and tips it on
    its face so it can "eat". 
    
    The whole body tends to tip forward.  She doesn't do this when trotting
    free.  I don't know if she has been vetted to see if there is physical
    damage.  Also, she can walk on a loose rein and she can lunge on
    a loose (or no) contact at the trot.  
    
    

    Not to get off the subject of the previous 12 or so replies but
    is there anyone out there who is going to NEDA this weekend?
    
    Linda
    

I'll be at NEDA Saturday (on foot) watching the Grand Prix class. 

Melinda

    I spent several years working for and riding under Robert Hall.
    Like Van Schaik, he trained at the Spanish Riding School and is
    a fanatic about the riders position (I still remember those endless
    position lessons on the end of a lunge line!)  I know Mr. Hall and
    his "Fulmer System" are somewhat controversial....Mr. Hall can be
    quite testy at times but has really mellowed these past couple of
    years.  I have tried several other instructors since he left the
    area and can't find anyone else that I can relate too.  ....I have
    never tried Van Schaik (I have been judged by him)....Jan, is he
    in Vermont?
    
    Anyway, Mr. Hall will be coming back to the Pepperell, Mass area
    in the spring for another clinic.  I will post it in the notes file
    if anyone is interested.
    
    Jeannie
    

    Are there any books, articles,etc describing the Fulmer System?
    If yes, I would appreciate a reference. Some months ago the Practical
    Horseman had a series of articles by Robert Hall on training young
    horses, but did not go into the "Fulmer System".
    
    Thanks.
    
    Bob Koller
    

    re: .140
    
    I have articles somewhere and I will dig them up and send some copies
    to you.
    
    
    Jeannie
    

    Melinda, do you happen to know how they are working the rings this
    year? The Omnibus had originally said that the Training would be
    held at one place and everything else at Flying Horse but now I've
    been hearing that the training level tests will be at Black Oak
    and I don't know where the others are being held (maybe at the new
    Hamilton Equestrian Center?) 
    
    Anybody out there know about the NEDA location changes???
    
    Thanks in advance for any info!
    
    Linda
    

Linda,

I just talked to Kathy Connelly at lunch and she thinks there's a slim
possibility NEDA could be cancelled if the snow/slop doesn't clear off
the warmup areas pretty quick.  Actually I doubt it will be cancelled. 

I don't know how/where the different rings will be... Looks like the show
secretary is going to be getting a few phone calls...

BTW, I'll be going Sunday (not Saturday) afternoon.  Are you riding?  

Melinda

    Hi Melinda! Thanks for replying! I know that the NEDA Spring Schooling
    show was cancelled due to rain and flooding but I haven't heard
    anything yet about the regular spring show. I received a postcard
    stating that the training level would be held at a different location
    which is about 2 miles away from where the other tests will be held
    and since I have to be in both places, this is going to make for
    an interesting day! I'll be there only on Saturday (if it is held!)
    
    Hope you have a nice time watching the Grand Prix. I might drive
    over Sunday myself to watch it.
    
    See you,
    
    Linda
    
    P.S. If you happen to hear anything more before Friday afternoon,
    could you maybe send me mail???  Thanks very much!!!
     

    Hi Linda,
    
    I was tallking to Martha yesterday, and she said that there
    is a possibility of having to cancel the show because of the
    weather and bad footing.  She had talked to the secretary or
    someone who told her that.  It would be too bad if they had
    to cancel because this is the Pan Am qualifying show.  You
    might try to call Marge Kitterege at Windrush Farm (N.Andover)
    she is running things and should know what's up.
    
    Good luck, I might go and watch if I have time.
    
    -Julie

	 I talked  to  a  friend  of  mine  who boards at Black Oak Farm
     (where the training level tests will be held).  She says (all of the 
     following comments pertain *ONLY* to Black Oak Farm and the facilities
     there):

	    1) the show is still on
	    2) parking and warm-up for the folks who will ride at
	       Black Oak is in the gravel pit at the end of Winthrop
	       Street. Winthrop Street has suffered alot from the 
	       weather we've had this winter, so don't travel very
	       fast on it. It is also not very wide. Riders and 
	       drivers, travel carefully.
	    3) There is NO warm-up area around either of the 2 rings
	       at Black Oak.  The Rings are about .7 miles away from
	       the warm-up/parking area. 
	    4) If you ride in the grassy area of the warmup, beware of
	       woodchuck holes. (hint: not a good idea to ride there)
	    5) The sand arena is not a great place to try to keep a 
	       horses attention span.  There are lots of available 
	       distractions - road, jumping field, woods - it's sort
	       of set into a hollow and the woods are higher than the
	       ring.


	Have a good time!

		    Kathy

    Just thought I'd let people know that there is a dressage schooling
    show being held at Shepley Hill in Groton, Mass on July 26th. It
    has amateur, open and junior at training tests 1-4 and first level
    test 1-4 along with other levels. Shepley is known for its nice
    grounds and also (for those eventers) is known to have held one
    of the earliest recognized events (according to the Chronicle).
    
    For anyone that is interested, contact Betsey Reeves in Groton Ma.
    I don't have her address or phone number but directory assistance
    will!
    
    Linda
    

	One of the dressage riders at the barn I'm at was raving away
	the other day about how awful it was to have allowed mules to
	compete at dressage. Just curious as to how others felt about this.
	It doesn't seem that big a deal to me but then I don't know much
	about dressage either. Does this evoke strong feelings in most
	dressage groups? liesl

I remember hearing about mules doing dressage.  I think its hysterical.
Imagine if someone was competing their expensive warmblood with a mule --
and the mule won!  

One of the reasons I like competing in dressage competitions is because
it doesn't matter what your "mount" looks like.  I used to compete my little
15 hand morgan at the higher levels among some elegant, costly creatures.
But performance is what counts and "pretty is, is pretty does."

So I say let the mules compete!  

Melinda

    They have mules in jumping competitions so why not?  Are these people
    that are complaining afraid that the mule might be better than their
    horse?  The only thing I don't want to see is judges giving better
    scores to the mules because they think it's cute and want to give
    them a break.  I know of a trainer who's father trained a bull to
    do grand prix dressage (he used to train horses for a circus) -
    imagine that!

I do not know much about dressage, but I would think that the mules
would have an advantage. The farmers down here say that they learn more
quickly than horses, are far more graceful, and they eat less! (Of course,
eating less is probably not something they look for in a dressage ring.)
Many of them are still used for plowing small gardens because they have 
small feet and can be trained not to step on the plants. 

    I was wondering if anyone had information on dressage scores and
    what the really mean or how they are arrived at.  For example, suppose
    you are in a class, say 1st level test 1, which requires a lengthing
    or test 3 that requires leg yielding, and there are horses of varying
    heights with different natural lengths of strides, etc.  How does
    the judge decide that your horse's trot lengthening is worth a 6
    and someone else's is worth a 7 - what if your horse is a 15 h
    something with a very good lengthening for his size, but the other
    horse is a 16.3 warmblood or something that naturally has a lengthening
    that makes the other horse's look like a medium trot?  Or with the
    leg yielding, it may take your 15 h horse twice as many strides
    to reach the track as the big horse, but your horse doesn't look
    like he's reaching as much after you see the bigger horse do it
    (from the judges perspective)?
    
    I know they are supposed to be unbiased, etc. but you really wonder
    if you are better off just having the taller horse to start with
    because if he is a good mover, then things are not as much of an
    effort for him as for the smaller horse.
    
    I'd like to hear some opinions and thoughts on the subject - just
    out of curiosity.

	 The scores  you  receive  are  based  on  how  well  your horse
     performs  the particular movement, not how many strides it takes to
     go  the  distance.  For  example,  in  a lengthening, if your horse
     displays  the  correct  action,  i.e.  shifting  weight back to the
     hindquarters,  raising  the front end, and increasing the length of
     stride without quickening, then they should get a higher score than
     if they were to just 'run' acriss the diagonal.  
     
	 Small horses  can  be  just  as  nice  as  the big ones, if not
     better. Sometimes they can be easier  to ride - when you get to the
     upper  level  tests  when you have to do 10 meter circles, you (and
     the  horse)  have  to  work a lot harder to make a good circle that
     size.  Also,  you  have  to  think  a lot quicker on the big horses
     because  proportionately, you dont have as much room to perform the
     movement.

	 The one  thing you can't really do too much about is the judges
     preference for big horses over small, etc.  

    I know the scores are based on how well the horse performs the
    movement, but how do they decide how well is well on a scale from
    0-10?  The judge is not supposed to compare horses, but wouldn't
    it be almost a subconscious thing for the judge to look at a horse
    performing the movement and have her mind envisioning the horse
    prior to this one doing the movement, and almost subconsciously
    doing the comparison to come up with the score?  
    
    You know yourself when you watch dressage tests, you might see a really
    nice test performed, then the next test might be just as accurate, but the
    horse is not as pretty or doesn't take as big strides, and you say
    to yourself that you liked the first test/horse better.  See what
    I mean???

Julie,

I'm sure some dressage judges are biased toward the larger, bigger moving
horses.  I think it's probably not that uncommon to have a large horse
place over a smaller horse - when both horse's performed equally well.

I remember (quite well) having a particular judge mark down my 15H horse's
scores.  He would even write "Did very well for a small horse." And then
give me 5's.  

I guess one recommendation is to "grin and bear it."  I'm sure plenty
of riders in all forms of competition have seen biased judging.  

Another suggestion is this: 

No matter how big or small a mover your horse may be, try to make 
a clear definition between a "working trot" and a "lengthening."   So if 
you "define" your horse's working trot to be fairly big moving, then you'd 
better have something up your sleeve for your lengthening!  Or, if you're
horse's lengthening is not his strongest movement, then trim down your
working trot a shade or two to accomodate.  I don't consider this a showing
trick at all, since there are many acceptable "degrees" of a working trot,
collect trot, medium trot, lengthenings, or extentions.  What's important is 
that there is an equal spacing between the "degree jumps."  

But as far as lengthenings are concerned - everybody seems to be looking for
something different.  You can get marked down for "too little" "too fast" 
"uneven" "no hock engagement"  -- to name some common ones (I'm sure I'm not
telling you anything you don't already know).  Did your judge write a comment
for the movement?  

Well good luck with the rest of your showing this summer!   

Melinda

    All I can say is that no matter what size horse I was riding, I
    still would never want to have to ride a Grand Prix test immediately
    following Lendon Gray on Seldom Seen (or for that matter, Lendon
    Gray on any horse - she always makes it look soooo easy! :^) or
    any test after Kris Bobo, Carol Lavell, and so on....
    
    Happy rides!
    
    Linda
    
    

    From my limited experience in riding dressage tests in Novice Horse
    Trials I have come to the conclusion that there are, in fact, only
    three possible scores for any dressage movement - 4, 5 and 6. These may
    bear an approximate relationship to the way your horse is going. When
    you start getting mostly 6's you can consider you are doing relatively
    well. It may have changed recently but I found that at the novice level
    a judge tended to score on a few simple characteristics that were
    significant to that judge but not necessarily the next one. So one
    judge is concerned more with accuracy than rhythm, etc: Since I don't
    understand who in there right mind would want to sit all day and watch
    a motley collection of horses riding around in approximate circles,
    I didn't complain.
    
    This comment is from a person who let himself be volunteered into
    announcing all day Sunday at a dressage show where a motley collection
    of horses will be riding around in approximate circles so there must be
    something catching here. 

    re .159
    
    I have noticed a slight variation/difference in judging from straight
    dressage shows, to dressage tests performed at a 2-phase, event
    or horse trial.  I did have one judge remark (at a 3-phase) to me
    that it was a pleasure for her to see a horse finally moving forward
    in it's dressage test.  I had spent most of that year on getting
    my horse going forward, and I from watching most of the tests before
    me, the horses all had that hunter type slowish gait, so I can see
    what she meant.  As far as the scores, they were mostly in the 5
    and 6 range with an occassional 7.  
    
    I tend to think that the dressage
    judges at horse trials are more lenient than judges at dressage
    shows.  The judges at dressage shows will make more comments like
    horse needs to be rounder, resisting, stiff, etc, whereas at the
    events, you see more things like circle not round, crooked center
    line, late transition (more related to accuracy of the movements
    rather than on how the horse looks).
    

    I have been showing my 15h Morgan mare in dressage shows for the
    past 6 years.  She had a lot of trouble learning to lengthen her stride
    and it showed in my scores.  At first I got 4's and 5's mostly because
    she would try to rush across the diagonal.  Now that she is using
    her back end to push we are getting 6's for lengthenings and 6's
    for MEDIUM trot in the 2nd level tests!  So I think most of the
    judges are pretty fair in scoring lengthenings, etc. for the smaller
    horses.
    
    My horse does very good lateral work and at our first show this
    year we got 7's and 8's for leg yielding.  So I don't think it's
    the reach or length of stride or how many strides you take that's
    being judged, but can you get from this letter to that with the
    proper bend and crossing over of the horse's legs.
    
    With more Arabs and Morgans showing in dressage now, I think the
    judges are getting used to seeing smaller horses and aren't as biased
    in scoring them as they used to be.
    
                     Jan-who's-trying-for-7's-at-medium-trot-this-year

    
    PS  Anyone going to the Monadnock Equestrian Center dressage show
    on Aug. 1 & 2?  I'll be showing and would like to meet other noters
    who will be there.  It's in Marlborough, NH.

    Has anyone run into, or know of, any horses that have incurred hock
    problems because of being ridden in dressage.  I recently heard
    that a lot of dressage riding, especially at the higher levels can
    cause things like arthritis and other hock related injuries/lamenesses.
    
    Do you think that this would be less of a problem if the horse was
    allowed to jump or be trail ridden (ie. other types of work)?  I
    guess there is some type of simple operation where the vet cuts
    a couple of ligaments or something in the hock, then the horse can
    be ridden again and he should not display the problem again.
    
    Just looking for some info/thoughts etc...

    YES! Julie, as a matter of fact, it seems to be increasingly popular
    for higher level horses to be trail ridden and to be conditioned
    using interval training. I can't remember where I read it, but a
    few articles have stated that due to the way horses have to use
    themselves to perform the upper level movements, they are more
    susceptible to back and hindquarter injuries and stress. Word has
    it that trail riding and better conditioning programs on grounds
    rather than just an arena helps tremendously. 
    
    Happy rides,
    
    Linda
    
    P.S. Julie, how's the horse hunting coming?

    
    
    The horse hunting stinks!  I hope to find something before the winter!
    You know what I find sort of strange?  Dressage all started with
    the Lippizans, and supposedly they had the right conformation and
    way of going to perform the upper level movements, yet how many
    do you acually see at a dressage show?  Also, don't you think that
    their gaits are a little different from the warmbloods and TBs you
    see a lot of?

    According to EQUUS, dressage is one of the most taxing disciplines
    for horses.  I can't remember exactly the order but I think horse
    racing was first and dressage came soon after it in physical demands.
    Since reading the conditioning articles in EQUUS (I think they had
    a table on which disciplines were the most demanding in one of the
    articles) we have started our horses on a conditioning program (there
    is a note somewhere on this with references to the articles).  The
    hindquarters carry a lot more of the horse's weight in dressage,
    especially at the higher levels, so I'm not surprised that horses
    are more susceptible to injuries there.
    
    We work our horses on dirt roads and around hay fields.  We would
    like to do more work on hills, but unfortunately we live in one
    of the flatter spots in NH.
    
    						Jan 
    

    I don't know what happened to the other replies that used to be
    here, but I remember asking if anyone knew about the 'operation'
    that is performed on a number of dressage horses where the vet cuts
    a small ligament that attaches to the horse's hock, and supposedly
    the horse is not lame anymore.  Does it affect his ability to jump
    or do anything else?  
    
    What do you think about a horse's walk being an indicator of his
    other gaits.  For example, if the horse has a natural over track
    of a hoofprint or more at the walk, is he more inclined to have
    a good tracking up at the trot, or at least would it be easier to
    get it out of him than a horse that doesn't even track up at the
    walk?  
    
    Does anyone have any knowlege or information on Holsteiner bloodlines?
    If so, what do you know about the stallion Fasolt?

    Walking:
    
    There are volumes written about the walk.  
    
    My views are thus--if the walk is HONESTLY good (i.e., the hip
    structure is correct, the hind legs are built correctly, the coupling
    is strong, the walk is cadenced, overall conformation is balanced...),
    then the horse should have a better chance at having an excellent trot
    and excellent canter. 
    
    However, there are horses around that "appear" to have a good walk
    simply on the basis that they have a long "overstep".  
    
    One mare in particular has a huge overstep and tracks up well at the
    trot. But her overstep is due to the fact that she is very sickle
    hocked (her hind legs HAVE to be 6 inches longer than what they would
    have been if she had correct legs--ARGH) and her hip structure is VERY
    tipped (she always looks like a horse does when you are washing their
    tail and get cold water where they don't want it to be).  She has
    scored WELL in lower levels because of the overstep (and placed well in
    breeding classes at Devon).  But she has a BAD canter due to her
    conformation and will never go any higher because she physically cannot
    engage, plus she won't hold up. 
    
    In this case, NO I don't think her walk is a good indicator.  I
    can also think of a couple of long legged, short backed horses who
    have big oversteps, but again not because they are completely correct.
    But they score well at the walk and trot (and have a marginal canter
    and are a real chore to collect).  
    
    When evaluating a horse's movement, the FIRST thing I look at is the
    walk, then if it interests me I start checking to see if the walk
    is attractive because everything else is correct.  I have a hard
    time accepting a horse that CANNOT track up.
    
    For what its worth.
    
    Mary Jo

Julie,

Am I mixed up or is Fasolt a Trakehner?  I believe I looked at him last
year at Southgate farm in Hollis (the new Cashel, or whatever it is now).
If we're talking about the same stallion, this guy was nice overall --
a proven dressage performance horse, tall, well mannered.  The minuses
which led me away from him were a number of conformation faults, a lack
of the big fluid movement, and the fact that he was dead lame when I looked
at him. 

I'll comment on your question about a horse's "walk."  Yes, I believe it's
usually true that a horse's natural walk will tell you a lot about his
other gaits/potential.  What I've been told from a couple instructors is
this:  If a horse has a good walk, then he often has a good canter as well.
On the other hand, a horse that trots exceptionally well doesn't necessarily 
canter or walk well.   

So by the watching a horse's walk, you can tell if there is potential for
hind end engagement -- but you can't really tell what the shoulder movement
is going to look like for a trot (sometimes you can though! -- a steep
paturned, or steep shouldered horse will show it in a walk)

What I look for in a walk is straightness, and at least a hoof print
"tracking up."  Don't be fooled by a sickle hocked horse who tracks
up well... these horses have very weak hind-ends!

melinda

    re:  .168
    
    No you're not confused...there are two breeding stallions named
    Fasolt.  I considered the trakehner too but wasn't overly
    impressed with him or his off-spring...don't know anything about 
    the holsteiner.
    
    J.

    Is anybody going up to the GMHA Dressage Show, August 11, 12 in
    Woodstock, VT? 
    
    Linda

    Yes, there are 2 stallions with the same name.  I called the Holsteiner
    assn. in Amesbury, and they said that Fasolt was a very big boned
    horse and was from good jumping bloodlines.  Someone else also
    commented that he was a really nice horse, but too big boned for their
    taste.  The horse I'm looking at is out of him, but has TB on his
    other side, and therefore did not get the big big bones of his dad.
                              
    I asked about the walk, because I watched the horse being hand walked
    around, and 99% of the steps he took were a full print overstep
    if not a bit more.
    He had normal hind legs (no sickle hocks) and his canter looked
    like a typical TB canter (which is usually good most of the time).
    His trot and canter were smooth, yet his pasterns were not too long
    which I was pleased about.
    
    What do you think about a 4 yo whose withers are the same height
    as the hindquarters?  Is there a chance that the front will grow
    a little more in height, esp. with a warmblood?

re .171

I've always thought when a horse's withers are the same height as his
rump, that he's through growing taller.  But ofcourse they may still fill
out through the barrel, neck, etc.  My suggestion is not to count on a
4 y.o. TB cross growing anymore.  They may continue to grow, but if you
simply MUST have a certain height horse, it's best not to take the risk.
(In my case I make anything under 16.2 look small, so I worry about these
things).

Melinda

	Can't you tell if a horse is done growing by getting knee x-rays?

    I think he might still grow.....typically warmbloods grow atleast
    until they are 5 years old.  My trak/tb grew another full inch in
    her 5th year.....
    
    Sounds like you found a horse?  congrats.
    
    J.
    

    I don't mind if he doesn't grow taller, because he's already 16.1
    and the height is enough for me, I do hope he fills out all around a
    little more.
    
    I'm just praying that he vets out clean, I'm having everything I
    can think of examined or tested just to be sure.  At maturity are
    the withers supposed to be even with the hind, or are they supposed
    to be higher?  He's registered as a full Holsteiner, but he does
    have some TB on his mother's side, so maybe that is a clue as to
    when the growing stops?
    
    Is it safe to do some gymnastic jumping over low heights (2' - 2'3")
    with a 4 yo?  If I get him, I'd like to do some elementary 2-phases
    or events next year, but I don't want to do too much too soon. 
    The person who showed him to me hopped him over a 2" vertical a
    few times and he cleared it no problem and his approach was nice
    and calm, but I don't want to start on a weekly jumping routine unless
    I'm sure he's physically ready for it.

    Julie, good luck with the vet check! Hope all works out well!
    
    Linda

    Dr. Deb Bennett of the Smithsonian (you may have read some of her
    articles in "Modern Horse Breeding" says a horse has not finished
    growing until it is 5 years old -- that's a HORSE, not any particular
    breed of horse.
    Merrie

    I think Dr. Bennett has contributed some articles to Equus, I'm
    not sure.  Did she specify whether growing applied to both
    height and width?  (ie. does the horse stop growing in height
    at around 3 or 4, then just fills out until 5?).  Had she done
    studies with different breeds to get a pretty good idea of horses
    in general?  
    
    Merrie, what have you noticed with your arabians?  Do they seem
    to follow the pattern she suggests?  Or do you notice that height
    seems to stop at a certain age, but the filling out continues?  

    Native ponies (Conemarra, Fells, Dartmoor etc.) mature earlier than
    hot blooded types.  At 4 years old a native pony would have just
    about completed it's growth, but in the next year or two might put
    on about 1" in height.
    
    At 6 years old my Arab x Clydesdale (who is predominately Arab,
    but large) is just maturing and I would expect him to put on another
    1" over the next 2 years as well as fill out slightly.
    
    It is considered that a horse (not pony) has not stopped growing
    until 8 years old.  Some people who would like to keep their horse
    for a long time, with as small a number of visits from the vet as
    possible, say that serious competition work would not be considered
    before a horse was 7 or 8, and the long distance/endurance societies
    in the UK will not allow a horse of less than 6 years old to
    participate in their events.
     

    Doesn't it seem like the simplest movements are always the hardest
    to get right?  I'd like to hear how people school to get straight
    center lines and square halts (front & back feet), and do these methods
    seem to work at the show as well as at home?

    Here's some things I'm been doing to try to get straight center
    lines and square halts.
    
    Straight lines:  Focus on an object straight ahead, don't look at
    the horses ears or anything else, then try to keep even pressure
    with both legs.  Sometimes just focussing on something helps a lot
    to keep you straight.
    
    Square halts:  The only way I can really get them is to make sure
    my horse is collected and really using her hindquarters.  Sometimes
    we'll get the left foreleg a little back of the right one, so I
    have to concentrate on squeezing a little more with my left leg
    to get her to move it those last few inches while halting.  Keeping
    her collected is the only way we come out near square.
    
    Don't know if these will help you any, but they do help at shows
    as well as home.
    
    						Jan

I use a method described by Henry Wynmalen, author of the book "Dressage",
and it works well.  Here is how its done:

The motion of the horse is straight, both reins are lightly held to be same
length (look for any side angle of his head).  There should be no resistance
against the bridle.  Begin slowing him by slowing the motion of your hands
(DON'T PULL).  He will notice that his motion is causing tension on the reins.
He then will begin to slow his strides.  Keep slowing the motion of your hands. 
As he slows, he begins to move up into his bridle as he collects.  As he comes
close to a full halt, he will want to complete his stride.  If given the
chance, he will square naturally.  To allow him to do this, just prior to
the full halt, allow a little motion to slip through your fingers.  This will
allow him to round off the remaining portion of the stride.

You should not use the aid of your legs when doing this or shifting of your
body weight.  As long as your in the "riders grove", his center of balance
is maintained and squaring is the end result.  You will know he's square
by the effortless feeling of keeping balanced at the halt.
    
By allowing him to move his body towards his head, he will collect without
aid.  It's hard to not drive him into his bridle whether by pulling
or leging.  This will just unsquare him, try to avoid it as much as possible.
    
    
Larry.                                                             
    

    RE: .166
    The operation you asked about seems to be the same thing my first
    horse (TB) had.  The trainer I bought him from refered to it as
    a jack-cord operation.  In any case, he was a A ciruit jumper that
    went lame. This operation did make him useable for some time, although
    he didn't look or feel quite balanced sideways.  Unfortunately,
    this horse developed calcium deposits on his spine about nine months
    after I bought him and he had to be put down.
    
    RE: The elusive straight square halts
    
    You mean everybody has this problem?  I thought it was just me.
    
    Focusing on an object straight ahead helps. As does separating you
    hands some (ala the wheelbarrow theory).  A consistent "warning"
    to your horse (like double halfhalts) may help him prepare to stop
    nicely.  
    
    I found one exercise that really helped us in the "How to Ride A
    Winning Dressage Test" book. It consists of two 10M circles, one
    in each direction starting from the center line, followed by an
    immediate halt.  The circles keep the horse balanced and off his
    forehand.  Square halts seem to come much more easily.
    
    After I've got you're basic everyday circle/halt down, we migrate
    to shoulder-in/halt.  Same balancing/collecting theory as the circles,
    but a little less obvious and you can work on halts on straight
    lines.  By the time we're ready to show the halts are easy, balanced,
    and square.  BTW - the shoulder-in works well in schooling downward
    transitions, too.
    
    
    
   

    re .182                     
                This method seems to go against the whole dressage notion
    of using the legs to 'push' the horse up into the bit.  Are you
    saying that when you ask for the halt in this manner you don't put
    your leg on the horse?  Doesn't the tendency for the horse to keep
    slowing the stride until he halts make him more strung out and less
    round?  Is this same method used at all levels?
    
    re .183
    
    Maureen, when you use your halting method do you use any leg aids
    to push the horse into a fixed-hand, or how do you ask for the
    halt.  I can see how the circles will keep the horse round, but
    does it make him bent more to one side when you halt, or do you
    straighten him just before the halt?
    
    Does anyone use the method of stiffening the back and 'dropping'
    all your weight through your seat bones and through the horse
    (and at the same time) restricting the following motion with
    the hand, but keeping light leg on the horse to keep him round?

    re .184
    
    About "stiffening the back" and dropping your weight through your
    seat bones:  what I do is restrict the following motion of my hands
    but I don't use my hands and arms to do it (at least I try not to).
    It's hard to describe, but I use my shoulders and back to restrict
    my arm movement, but it's not really "stiffening the back".  If
    I only do this, my horse stops dead and strung out (her favorite
    gait is halt and she can stop very abruptly if you don't prevent
    it).  So I have to use some contact with my leg to keep her round
    and going forward into the halt.  When I "drop my weight" to actually
    halt her, I also release just a bit with my fingers or else she'll
    put her head up.
    
    Also at the trot you don't have any following hand motion to restrict
    but I still use my shoulders and back to put "more weight in the
    reins" without tightening my hands and arms.  It's from the trot
    to halt that I have to use a bit more pressure with my left leg
    to get her left foreleg even with the right.
    
    I have also tried the method in .183 on halting after a circle.
    You can do one stride straight after coming out of the circle before
    asking for the halt.
    
    On the "dressage notion" of pushing the horse up into the bit -
    I know some people do that and the horse is very heavy in your hands.
    However I know of other dressage people who get the horse engaged
    behind and get the horse to shift more of its weight back on the
    hindquarters.  I don't know if people call it the same thing (pushing
    the horse up into the bit), but the result is different.  In one
    case the horse actually seems heavier on the forehand, and in the
    other the horse is on the bit, but is very light in your hand. 
    When my horse is collected properly, I have light contact with my
    leg and am using it to engage her hindquarters and using my seat
    to ask her to shift her weight and I have a very light feel of the
    bit (reins are straight and the horse is on the bit, but I don't
    have the feeling that I'm holding her head up with the bit).
    
    When she doesn't shift her weight, it feels like I'm holding her
    whole front end up.  Some people have commented to me on how hard
    it is on their arms when driving the horse forward.  I don't think
    the horse is supposed to get heavier in your hand.  
    
    Would like to know how other people interpret "pushing the horse
    up into the bit".  Do more people get a light feel on the bit or
    a heavy one?  Do you call what you do to get the light feel "pushing
    the horse up into the bit"?
    
    						Jan

    re .185
    
    Jan, I know what you mean about using your shoulders and back, it's
    also what I do, but sally swift calls it 'being a buttress' you
    kind of think to yourself, 'I'm not going to let this horse pull
    my arms forward - my hands are set, and he can pull against them"
    at the same time, however, you need to keep your calves lightly
    on the horse to keep him together as he slows the gait.
    
    I think the term pushing the horse into the bit is used by some
    people to mean drive from behind first, then collect with the reins.
    I know that when my other horse was doing 1st level, I'd get him
    going very forward, then slowly take up more contact until he was
    in a 1st level frame.  When his hindquarters were sufficiently engaged,
    I could have almost no contact with his mouth, and because he was
    round and balanced, he'd stay in a nice light 1st level frame, but
    as soon as he got strung out, or too much on the forehand, then
    I felt more weight in the reins, and had to use more leg, and 1/2
    halts to 'get him off the reins' again and balanced over his
    hindquarters.  So in answer to your question, I say that he is on
    the bit, but not meaning that he is leaning on it and that I have
    to hold him up - he gets that way when he is too much on his forehand. 
    
    Your arms shouldn't hurt after riding because when the horse starts pulling,
    you give 1/2 halts or little tugs, but you don't pull back, because
    the horse just develops 'pulling' muscles in his neck.  If he is
    pulling because he is being asked to collect before he is ready,
    give him a long rein, and ask him to trot out very energetically
    and stretch down.  Then, little by little, gather up the reins,
    and make sure he keeps the same energy and action in the trot while
    you ride him  in a nice training level frame.  Work on it every
    day, until he develops the correct muscles to allow him to be collected
    into a 1st level frame (only ask him to stay in it for a small amount
    of time = at 1st, then after a few days ask for a little more) 
                                           
    Jan - what did you mean about using your seat to ask her to shift
    her weight - how do you do this?

One of the first problems I ran into while riding one of Mary Howards'
school horses was the way the mare 'let me hold her front end up'.  Being
a very well schooled 4th level mare - this horse certainly knows better.
She really only did it to people (like me) who are not confident with thier
aids.

This problem, along with a really stiff right side, necessitated 
flexion exercises at all gaits (see earlier notes on this topic - starting
at the halt).  Basically, what Mary had me do at the instant that I felt
the mare pressing against the bit (timing and feel is so important and
so difficult) - slowly, rhythmically turn the mares head side to side -
and since the right is stiff - more rein pressure is asked on the right
and the left giving and taking.  The height and intensity of the reins
is determined by the lack of response - where this horse has been trained
to lighten off and play with the bit in her mouth when this technique is
used.  This exercise can be done on a straight line and on the circle -
and the horse should be responding to the leg aids for direction not the
reins - in other words - this exercise should not be a zig zag motion 
while moving in a straight line - all you are doing is flexing the neck
muscles and asking them to lighten off of, chew and play with the bit.

I can only assume that this training/correction method is one to be careful 
with and must be introduced very slowly and yet predictably on
a horse that is not familiar with it.  Starting at the halt and rewarding
the horse for the slightest submission is probably the best start.  They
must be sure of what is expected of them when asking for flexion - or 
this could easily cause frustration for both horse and rider.

If I may add a plug:  Mary Howard gives lessons and clinics and I highly
recommend her as an instructor.  If I may add my usual disclaimer:  I
haven't been 'dressaging' long...  I hope my interpretations are correct -
I can only say it feels right... and it works...

    re .186
    
    > Jan - what did you mean about using your seat to ask her to shift
    > her weight - how do you do this?

    Good question!  Boy, it's hard to explain.  Since you are familiar
    with Sally Swift's work (buttress was exactly what I was thinking
    about for holding with your back!) then I can describe this best
    by her "center and grow" phrase.  You end up asking the horse to
    rebalance themselves.  Each time I do this with Ellie with a little
    contact with my calves, too, she ends up taking more weight on her 
    hindquarters.   It also is a half-halt with using the seat only
    (no hands) in more conventional terms and then adding the calves
    puts in a little driving aid to also get the quarters more under
    the horse.  Does that make sense?
    
    re .187
    
    I've used this exercise with my horse, too.  Sometimes she'll really
    lean on the left rein (I am probably leaning on it too, but don't
    realize it!).
    
    						Jan
    

      I'm having difficulty getting round, even circles - and was thinking of
trying traffic cones to help me judge the size of a circle.  Doe's anyone 
know where I could get some (legally).  

      I watch a video that suggested using 8 cones - like this:



                            o
                            
                            o


              o  o          X           o  o



                            o
  
                            o

   x marks the middle - and you ride through the cones - hopefully learning
to judge the distance (ie: 10M vs 20M).  Any other suggestions?

    I don't have cones, but practiced with lime on the ground.  My husband
    and I measured the circle out and put a line of lime (about 4" wide
    and 8" long) on 4 places on the circle - these correspond to the
    placement of the cones in your picture.  We put enough lime down
    so it wouldn't get washed away in quite a few rain storms (fairly
    thick) and it lasted a long time.  I rode the circles just inside
    the lime marks so the horse wouldn't scuff them up.
    
    We used to have a catalog from Ben Meadows Co. that I think had
    traffic cones in it.  We kept meaning to order some, but never did.
    They carry all kinds of forestry equipment.  I'll see if I can find
    it (or an address to send for one).
    
    						Jan

    How about using milk crates or even jump standards as a last resort.
    I have a bunch of cones that I got from someone else, but I don't
    know where she got them from.  You could also use cement blocks
    or big rocks if you are really scrounging for something to use as
    a marker.

    Plastic pickle buckets?
    
    A trainer during a clinic tied a light string around the outside
    of someone's stirrup then attached a lunge line (of known length)
    to the string.  This VERY dramatically demonstrated the quality
    of the circle.  The demonstrator did well enough to not break the
    string however...
    

    You can also have someone hold a 10 meter (or other length) rope
    in the center of where you want your circle, then mark an even circle
    by either attaching a stake to the end and marking a line by digging
    this into the ground, or just leave lime along the edge of the line
    created.  Sawdust also works.  A 10 meter rope makes a 20 meter
    circle, etc...  If you don't have another person, you can drive
    a stake into the center of the circle, and attach the rope to this.
    

    What methods do you use when working with a young/green horse
    as far as contact with the bit?  Do you keep a loose rein and
    let the horse pick his stride, or do you make him go very
    slowly.  Do you keep a good feel of the reins and follow his
    head, etc.  I know there are a variety of methods, and you may
    use one on one horse and another on a different horse, but
    it might be a good idea to list some methods here so people 
    have something else to try when their method(s) don't seem to
    work. 
    
    For example, with one green mare I was riding I had to keep slowing
    her gait down because she always wanted to rush.  I kept a constant
    contact with her mouth, and made her trot slowly enough that
    it almost felt like she was going to break into a walk.  From this
    trot, I was in control, not her, and when she decided to relax
    and give in to the bit (and round her back a little) I would ask
    for a slight increase in speed.  When she got too quick again, I
    would slow her down, until she finally learned to quit fighting
    against the bit and give in to the pressure.  From there (and after
    she built up her back and hindquarter muscles) I could ask her
    for a better training level trot.  
    
    The slow trot I asked for was more work for her and she didn't want
    to do it, but as she built up the correct muscles, it was easier
    for her to maintain that trot and I could work on other areas once
    she was going steadily.  The canter was another story completely
    (and still is!)...we're still working on that.

    For those looking for traffic cones:
    
    I saw some orange traffic cones in a hockey shop the other
    day.  They were not the large ones that you see on the
    highways, they were about 1/3 the size, but would probably
    be useful for schooling purposes.  Try calling directory
    assistance to get the # for the Andover Hockey Shop in
    Andover, MA to get more info on the cones.

    
    For those of you who are interested, there is a Robert Hall Clinic
    being held in November (14 or 15?) at New Meadows Farm in Pepperell
    MA.  I don't know much about Robert Hall,  but I have (and still
    am) ridden under several of his students - and I was really impressed
    by their knowledge.   I believe they are still looking for riders
    for the clinic.  If you are interested, contact Barbara Edwards
    at 617-433-2667.
    
    Sherry
    
    

    Robert Hall used to (at least 10 years ago) operate a riding school
    out of Chick-A-Tee Farm in Pepperell. My mother rode under him and
    liked him alot however her horse was not able to handle the intensity
    of the work but she does think he is very good!
    
    Linda

    Whoops, sorry about replying to my own reply! When Robert Hall used
    to operate out of Pepperell from what is now Chick-A-Tee (if memory
    serves me correctly), it used to be named Fulmer.

    I worked for Mr. Hall at Fulmer School in Pepperell.  He teaches
    the "Fulmer System" which is a system he devised from time spent
    at the Spanish Riding School and years of raising and training english
    tb's.  He coached one olympic dressage team (can't remember what
    year.)  I feel that this system is particularly effective with
    sensitive horses (like TB's..).  He dosen't believe in "driving" aids 
    or forcing a horse into submission.  He is also an absolute
    perfectionist when it comes to a riders position....if yours isn't
    (or close to it) he will work on that before moving on to more exciting
    things like getting your horse "round"  (never "on the bit"....he
    has a real adversity to that expression) or lateral work.
    
    Anyway, I think he is wonderful....I have been completely "Fulmerized"
    when it comes to dressage. Actually, even though I am back to showing
    hunters......I still use the same training methods as I did for
    showing in dressage.  His techniques are very adaptable from one
    discipline to another. If anyone is interested in attending the clinic 
    and would like more insight into his theories, etc...you can contact me.
    Unfortunately, I will not be riding as I sold the horse I would
    have taken to the clinic last month.  I think is rate are up around
    $60 for a 45 minute private.
    
    Jeannie
                                                            

 I would like to observe Robert Hall's teaching techniques.  I've heard of
riders who have been "fulmerized" and can't help but be curious.   My only
knowledge of the Fulmer technique was when I once "test rode" a 7 yo dressage
prospect...  The owner  was a student of the Fulmer School and was totally 
appauled that I was asking the horse to come on the bit, bend, round, etc..  

That was my closest experience with the Fulmer school's training philosophy.  
I got the impression that the Fulmer School *waits* for a dressage movement
to be correct rather than asking for the correct positioning.  At the time,
(this was about 10 years ago), I thought it was silly to *wait* for something
to happen --  particularly if you ever wanted to get somewhere with the horse
before it became geriatric.  But now I'm not sure... afterall dressage is
really the art of training horses to perfect their natural movements.  So
maybe if the rider learns to be more of a "passenger" and less of an 
"interferer" then the horse would progress more rapidly.  I suppose it depends
on what the riders goals are...  I would like to see if the amount of time 
spent on training a horse using the Fulmer technique justifies the final 
result.  Because I believe that the Grand Prix horse's competing today have
been "moved along" (ie they were "asked") to get where they are today.

Karl Mikolka (also a trainer of the Spanish Riding School) said that "It takes
8 years to 'make' a dressage horse and 10 years to 'make' a rider."  He meant
that these figures were fairly accurate when given a gifted horse with full
potential for Grand Prix, and given a gifted rider with Grand Prix riding 
potential.  Based on these figures, think about the time investment
in producing a Grand Prix horse, or even a lower level such as Intermediare,
Prix St. George, 4th, or 3rd level horse...  These horses are ordinarily
in their teens by the time they've reached these levels... and this is 
when they've been "asked" to perform.  All I can think of, if I'm correct
in my understanding about the Fulmer technique, is how long are we to wait 
before we can expect results from our dressage horses?   Maybe I better 
take a closer look at the Fulmer technique before making my decision...

Melinda

    Re .190:
    
    Safety cones can be purchased from Ben Meadows Co.  They have three
    sizes - 12", 18", and 28".
    
    In the EAST order from:		In the WESt order from:
    
    Ben Meadows Co.			Ben Meadows Co.
    P.O.Box 80549			P.O. Box 2781
    Atlanta (Chamblee), Georgia 30366	Eugene, Oregon 97402
    
    1-800-241-6401 (outside GA)		1-800-547-8813 (outside OR)
    1-800-241-3136 (GA only)		1-800-452-9010 (OR only)
    M-F 8:15-5 Eastern time		M-F 8:15-5 Pacific time
    
    We have an old catalog so I don't have any recent pricing information.
    
    						Jan

    I wonder what his method teaches for working with young/green
    horses who don't have much balance on their own (ie. always
    on their forehand, etc.)?  I know that the one I'm working
    with has made a noticeable improvement in 4 weeks with my
    helping him learn to slow down and rebalance himself, but
    this requires that you have constant contact and show the
    horse what you want with your legs and reins.  If you have
    to 'wait' for something to happen, I think you'd be waiting
    for a long time, because how many horses naturally say, "ok
    I'm falling on my forehand, I better make more effort with
    my hindquarters and shift my weight back" (It would be nice
    if they did!).

    What you are doing with your young horse is exactly what Mr. Hall
    would teach.....slow down to a point where the horse will naturally
    shift his weight back and balance himself.  He teaches to always
    ride with a rein contact even at the beginning stages.  I don't
    really think that his methods are that much different than other
    systems except in one area...he does not believe in using your seat
    to push a horse on to the bit.   His theory is that a horse can
    only put his head in the correct position (on or near the vertical)
    if his hind end is underneath him and to do the latter he must use
    his back.  If a rider is pushing and pumping on a horses
    back it dosen't allow him to use it naturally (or at all).  This is
    also why he dosen't like the expression "on the bit" because it
    focuses your attention on the horse's head when actually the focus 
    should be on the hind end.  The aids you would use are "tweaks"
    on the reins to slow your horse down and your leg to create impulsion.
               
    I think when people equate the Fulmer System with "waiting" it comes
    more from Mr. Hall's attitude about pushing a horse to fast....before
    he is mentally and/or physically ready especially for the sake of
    competing.  He dosen't believe in any sort of gadgets or short cuts.
    I competed one of his polish stallions and showed him First Level
    as a 4-year old (because he was ready for it!) and we were schooling
    changes at home because he had a wonderfully balanced canter and
    the changes came so easily to him (does that sound like just waiting
    around?)
    
    .......I have to say, I have been sitting hear laughing
    to myself at the thought of Mr. Hall trotting around the ring with
    his reins flopping and the horses head stuck in the air "just waiting".
    (You would really have to know him....he would be quite horrified).
    He is a wonderful rider to watch VERY quiet and tackful....he really
    looks like he does NOTHING when he rides.  It's such a pleasure
    to watch....If you can make to the clinic to observe, I think you
    would really enjoy it.
    
    Jeannie
    

    
    I found out last night, that the space is quite limited for auditors
    for the Robert Hall clinic.   If you want to go, you should call
    about a month in advance to schedule a time to come and audit. 
    It is going to be Nov 13-16 (Fri-Mon) at New Meadows Farm in Pepperell
    MA.  There will be a minimum fee for auditing ($5-$10 for a day).
    Call Barbara Edwards at 617-433-9783 (note this is a different number
    than in the orginal notice)
    
    

    If anyone is going to NEDA on Sat.  I will be scribing for
    Judith Montgomery-Moore from 8:50 to 11:30, I'll probably
    stay a while after that to watch some tests.  I don't know
    which ring she'll be judging, but I'm sure it will be in
    the program.  Hope to see some noters there!

    Will anyone be going to the Monadnock Equestrian Center dressage
    show this weekend (Oct 3 & 4) in Marlborough, NH?  I'll be riding
    both days, so stop by and say hello if you go.  If anyone wants
    directions, send me mail.
    
    An interesting comparison to Julie's not on breeds at the NEDA show:
    at the MEC show in August, there seemed to be more of the non-warmblood
    breeds:  Morgans, Appaloosas, Thoroughbreds, Quarter Horses, etc.
    and more 1 person owner/trainer/rider (and a lot of them being amateurs
    too).  So there is hope!  Grant it, the NEDA fall show is THE big
    show of the year around here, but there are other good size shows
    where you can see good riders and horses that aren't professionals.
    Gives you a little hope anyways!
    
    						Jan

    Have all the dressage noters started hibernating for the winter?
    Jan - how was the show at MEC?  Martha ended up staying home that
    weekend so you wouldn't have seen her there.
    
    What types of things do you do with your horses in the winter -
    does anyone have specific goals they want to work toward for the
    spring?  I hope to have my horse going well enough so I can take
    him to some schooling shows and do a training level test (I & II
    for now) - his walk and trot are coming along nicely, but his
    canter will take some more work before he's able to do a whole
    test.  
    
    Let's hear from everyone.......

    Julie -
    
       The Monadnock show was OK for us (not our best and not our worst).
    Ended up with a 5th and a 6th in 1st level 4 and 2nd level 1 on
    Saturday.  We did go on Sunday hoping the weather would clear, but
    gave up and went home without riding.  My horse really holds back
    in slop and it sure was sloppy.  They had two rings going on Sunday.
    They let people pick when they wanted to ride and would get the
    judge for the class they were in to the ring when you showed up.
    There were a few people who did ride.  Most did all their tests
    in a row and left.
    
       Basically we will be conditioning and schooling till the footing
    gets too bad to ride.  Then we quit riding and pray for an early
    spring.  Having the horses well conditioned in the fall makes it
    easier to start them on a conditioning program in the spring.
    
    						Jan

    Does anyone know of clinics that either Kathy Connelly or Lendon
    Gray (sp) might be doing in the New England area sometime in the
    near future?
    
    Thanks in advance for any info!
    
    Linda

Linda,

I don't know whether Kathy Connelly or Lendon Grey are giving clinics this
fall... Kathy's number is (617)486-8674.  I know she (Kathy) will come to
your place and "give a clinic" if you arrange it. I don't know how many riders
you'd have to line up, and ofcourse it would have to fit into her schedule.
  Also, she gives lessons at her place in Harvard MA.  Since LTN is only a 
mile away from her place, I used to take lessons from her at lunch!  As far
as I know she doesn't have any school horses to ride, so you either have to
board there or trailer your horse over.  

And Jan,

Congratulations on your MEC show!  I know the competition is tough nowadays
and I'm sure you rode some great tests for those ribbons!  

And Julie,

It sounds like you've got your training goals set for the winter.  I'm working
with a horse who needs quite a lot of help at the canter.  She's green and
half Percheron, and doesn't realize that her hind-end is connected to
her front-end yet.  As soon as she's gone a few strides at the canter she
goes into a 4-beat rendition.  Also, getting a left lead out of her depends
on the phase of the moon.  Her previous owner showed me how she gets her
to take the left lead:  A wide opening outside rein... Needless to say it
causes her neck to bend to the outside (which ought to look lovely in her
first schooling show this Saturday!).  I'm taking this mare (Fable) to
Ashby Pastures show Saturday, and Trailmare's show the week after.  
Why is it that you always have to take your hardest lead right near the judge?
Both Training Level 1 and 2 require a left lead between M & C.  

I've been taking lessons from Mary Howard in Amhurst NH.  So far all I've been
having are lunging lessons -- which is exactly what I need.  I think she's
excellent.  My winter plans are to continue taking lessons from Mary Howard, 
and basically wait til spring before riding my own horses.   

For anyone interested:  

Jonathan Ball (USDF Silver Medalist) is teaching out of Kilkenny farm in
Jaffrey NH.  If anyone has ever taken a lesson or clinic from him I'd be
interested in knowing what you thought of him.  


Melinda

    Melinda, thanks for Kathy's number!
    
    I have known Jon Ball since he was a kid. He has done ALOT since
    then. He is currently showing his horse Wilkinger 4th level and
    PSG and has done the training himself. I have seen him coach students
    at shows and he seems pretty good. I had heard that he was building
    his own large farm outside of Keene, NH.
    
    Linda
    

    re: .215
    
    Melinda,
    
    I know what you mean about the left lead, that was the one that
    I'm having problems with on my gelding.  Where did you get the mare
    from and what is her breeding (ie. percheron X ?)
    
    What you could try for the canter (this helped me) is work on some
    walk-trot-walk transitions on the 20m circle to get the horse listening
    and supple (make sure she stays bending correctly while doing them)
    then as you ask for the canter from sitting trot, first get the
    horse to move away from your inside leg and bend a little extra
    to the inside (ie. make her arc more than normal around the circle).
    As you are circling left, use a definite outside leg canter aid,
    but let your weight drop into your left hip and heel (concentrate
    on this)  This should keep the pressure on her to move away from
    your leg and keep the curve of the circle while you right leg asks
    for the correct lead.  Throughout this, she should be following
    the bend of the circle (meaning her nose should be tipped to the
    left, not the right).
    
    At first I was letting my horse run into the canter from the trot,
    but as we did more schooling, I am now making him canter from a
    normal working trot (you have to insist a little more), but I make
    sure he is balanced and even on both reins before I ask for the
    transition.  If this method works, do a lot of canter-trot-canter
    transitions to make sure she really understands it and it's not
    just luck.  
    
    As for the 4-beat stuff, if she understands what a whip means and
    is not afraid of it, you can use a long whip that will reach her
    stifle, and as you canter, every couple of strides, tap the stifle
    area with the whip (and close your calves at the same time).  If
    this causes her to go 3-beat again, try using just your legs the
    next time she is 4-beat.  The whip usually causes them to flex the
    hock joint a little sharper and give a little more impulsion - even
    if it is just for a few strides.  You just want to make sure she
    doesn't get too strung out if she overreacts to the aids - use a
    half halt or whatever you use to keep her balanced and consistent.
    
    Good luck at your shows.  I had considered going to those, but I
    don't feel he is ready to do a whole test yet - we're still working
    on the parts....

Julie,

Thank you for the cantering tips.  I've been tapping Fable's stifle with the
whip at the canter and it's been helping a great deal.  I'm convinced she's 
capable of overcoming her weak canter with time.   As for the canter transition,
it sounds like we use the same schooling technique here.  I thought the 
technique was fool proof until I rode her for the first time.  She wants
an outside opening rein at the depart.  At least I've managed to do it without
losing the inside bend.  I suspect with time I'll be able to use less and
less of an opening rein and then rely on just having her "on the outside rein."

Melinda

    Melinda,
    
    How was your show this past Saturday?  Did you get your left lead
    ok?  How old is the mare and what is she a cross with (ie. Perch.
    & ?).  
    
    I know what you mean about it not being fool proof - I discovered
    that last night when my horse had a memory lapse regarding his canter
    leads.  In both directions he picked up the lead opposite the one
    I asked for.  I finally had to insist that he stay bent on the circle,
    but not running through my outside leg. With a firm inside leg
    'wrapped' around his barrel and a definite outside aid, he finally picked
    up the correct one.  I spent about 15 min working this problem until
    he finally picked up each lead correctly 3 times in a row.
    
    One bonus: his trot work was really good after that!
    
    Is anyone going to the Robert Hall clinic Nov. 14 in Pepperell?

Julie,

Fable is 5 years old and half Percheron, half Standardbred.  Her Sire is
the Percheron, but I don't know any more details.  I'll ask her previous
owner if you're interested.  I was pleased with her performance in her
first show last Saturday.  She was very tense and our tests were eratic, 
but she calmed down by the end of each test.  Beth Jenkins was judging and
she was very encouraging.  I'm looking forward to many more shows with this
mare.   

Melinda

    
    Hi Julie,
    
    	I am planning on going to the Hall clinic on the 14th.  Have
    you called and "reserved" a place?
    
    Sherry
    
    

    
    I have a very basic question on diagonals at the posting trot.  
    I understand what it is and how to post to it.  My question is
    what in the horse's motion makes posting on the correct diagonal cause
    the horse to be more balanced?  Is it the same idea as leads at
    the canter?
    
    Another question is on the use of the seat for half-halts.  I have
    just started learning to use my seat for more than just a cushioning
    agent :-).  My understanding is that on the half halt, you use rein,
    leg and seat.  The seat is supposed to do sort of a "pelvic tilt"
    to give the aid.   My question is that to give the seat aid, is
    it really just a tightening of the stomach and loosening of the
    lower back muscles.  Or is it a tightening of the buttocks?  Using
    either method, you can get a similar effect of the seat.
    
    Sherry
    
    

    Hi Sherry - I'm trying to call Barbara to reserve a place at the
    Hall clinic - I do want to go.
    
    RE: diagonals - my unscientific guess would be that it relates more
    to when you are on circles rather that straight lines (then it doesn't
    really matter), but when you are on a circle it helps with the
    balancing for the horse (similar to leads but not as obviously).
    I'm not going to attempt more of an explanation because I can't
    really explain how it would work other than maybe because you are 
    freeing up the inside shoulder by sitting when it's going forward, 
    and maybe your legs are more effective since you squeeze with your
    calves when you are sitting.
    
    Anyone else want to try??
    
    RE: 1/2 halt - This may be taught differently from instructor to
    instructor, but usually you use your seat more on a horse that is
    further along in it's training and understands it since it is more
    subtle - but you kind of think of driving your seat bones down
    through the saddle - so as you squeeze with your calves, you kind
    of stiffen (for lack of a better word) the spine and drive the force
    down through your seat - don't think of squeezing your buttocks
    because this would raise you out of the saddle and not really have
    the desired effect.  I invite other comments or methods here since
    this is probably one of many interpretations.
   

    
    Hi Julie,  Try Barbara after 8:00pm.  She is usually home returning
    calls at this time.
    
    Diagonals;  This was my unscientific guess too.   I was hoping someone
    could explain it alittle better.  With the canter leads, it is quite
    obvious, but I am not so clear on the trot.
    
    1/2 halts:  The horse I am riding is well trained enough to understand
    the subtle aids from the seat.  She is extremely sensitive, but
    if you do something right, she will respond immediately (great lesson
    horse!).  Should the movement of the seat be obvious to someone
    watching or is it just a stiffening of the body which could be felt
    but not really seen?  This is assuming that I am just learning this,
    so the aids will probably be much more exaggerated than is actually
    necessary.   As far as tightening the buttocks,  I tried this, and
    not only does it raise you out of the saddle, it also tightens the
    whole leg.                                 
    
    Sherry
    
    

    Re: half-halts
    
    You really want to use your stomach and abdomen muscles to tilt
    your pelvis and *not* use your back muscles at all.  As was pointed
    out in other replies, tightening your buttocks just pushes you out
    of the saddle.  Sometimes you can see the effect (mostly when using
    the same aids to do a full halt).  For the best explanation see
    the book "The Anatomy of Riding" - authors, publishers, etc. are
    in some reply to this note (I forgot to look before I started this
    reply).  They explain extremely well about what muscles to use -
    in fact the first part of the book is an anatomy lesson with pictures
    of all the muscles.
    
    Re: diagonals
    
    I think the whole reason is to not have weight on the horse's back
    when the inside hind leg is on the ground.  When going in circles
    or around a ring, the provides more implusion than the outside and
    consequently will tire sooner, all things being equal.  So if you
    don't have your weight on it when it's pushing off, it won't tire
    as quickly.  If you're just going down the road, then it doesn't
    particularly matter which diagonal you're on, but you should change
    off and on so both hind legs get the same amount of work.  Well,
    that's my stab at it.
    
    						Jan

    Melinda - by any chance did you ride at the Trailmare Dressage show
    this past Sunday (Oct. 25th)?
    
    Linda

    Does anyone subscribe to Equus?  I have been following Dr. Deb
    Bennett's column in the past few issues, and she's been concentrating
    on the horse's back.  What I found interesting is that she says
    when people talk about strengthing the horse's back (ie. using certain
    dressage movements/exercises) this is not really the case - in effect
    these exercises are strengthening the abdominal muscles along the
    sides of the barrel and underneath (stomach muscles).  She also
    says that when the horse stretches his back, he is actually drawing
    up his stomach muscles like he does when you rub your fingernail
    along his belly from between the front legs on back toward the
    tail.  
    
    That series of articles is very interesting, and she always
    has 4 photos of horses that she compares and explains why a particular
    shaped horse is better for one sport than another - she also puts
    them on a scale to show which horse has more strength, flexibilitly,
    etc.
    
    re: diagonals - Jan your suggestion seems to make sense, although
    I wonder why when people talk about it, they always mention balance?
    I'll try to remember to ask my instructor this week and see what
    she says.
    
    Sherry - ideally, the half halt is not seen by observers.  This
    usually applies to a trained horse, when you are working with a
    green or inexperienced horse, you may need to exaggerate the aids
    so that the horse responds - eventually you can use a more subtle
    aid as the training progresses.  (I left a message on Barbara's
    recorder - so I am planning to attend the clinic).
    

Linda,

Yes I went to Trailmare's schooling show yesterday.  It was a beautiful day for
it.  We had a great day with  60% and 69% scores on Training level I, and II.
Now my trailer goes into storage for the winter...Sounds like your trailer's
going to have to air out for a while! That must be terrible! I'm sure someone
has some ideas on how to remove the skunk smell from your trailer.  Good luck!

Melinda

    Melinda, I wanted to make sure that it was you who I saw there
    (recognized your name from notes) so I could congratulate you!
    
    I'll brag for you ;^) Melinda was 2nd and 3rd in her Training 1
    and Training 2 tests!
    
    Again, congratulations!
    
    Linda
    

    Re: .-1, oops, it may have been 2nd and 2nd (I can't remember exactly!)
    

    I was there fence judging.  Did either of you jump? (Well,
    guess Melinda didn't on such a green horse)  Did you Linda?
    
    Dawn

    Dawn, I didn't ride. I was just helping out my mother who is just
    starting to take an interest in dressage (and who is also doing
    pretty well!) and some other friends.
    
    Linda

    
    Well, I finally asked my instructor last night about how keeping
    the correct diagonal helped to balance the horse (This was brought
    up several notes ago).  The answer is.......
    
    As with canter leads, it only makes a difference when trotting on
    a circle.  The reason that you want to be posting up with the outside
    front leg, is so that you are out of the saddle when the horse is
    bringing his INSIDE hind leg forward.  It makes it easier for the
    horse because the inside legs already have extra pressure on them
    due to the circle, so by removing some of the weight by rising,
    it makes it easier for the horse to bring the inside hind leg forward.
    And since theoretically, all the impulsion is from the hind legs,
    this means that the horse will have an easier time to keep the
    impulsion while you are performing a rising trot on a circle.
    
    Does that make sense to everyone?  (I think someone mentioned this
    in an earlier reply too).
    
    Sherry
    

    I have a few questions regarding Dressage.  
    
    First of all, I have been a Saddleseat rider all my life, with a
    little western thrown in.  But recently I have been thinking about 
    switching to Dressage (especially after seeing the movie "Sylvester" 
    on HBO, which I thought was excellent!)  
    
    The only problem is, I am really nervouse about changing riding
    styles.  This probably sounds terrible, but I guess I feel I'm a good 
    saddleseat rider and being a beginner again kind of bothers me.
    Dressage looks so much more difficult than Saddleseat. But, I feel if 
    I'm going to do it I should do it now as I am in between horses right 
    now and will want to purchase one that can do dressage if that's what I
    decide to do.
    
    Anyway, is there any suggestions on dressage riding lessons in the
    Marlboro area.  I would look this up under services but I want
    somebody's own personal opinion. How much does it normally cost?
    (I didn't know if its higher than any other type of lesson).  Are
    there any clinics I can watch?  Books I can read?  And last but
    not least, what type of horse should I buy and how expensive are
    they?                     
    
    I'm the type of person that if I do decide to make this change I
    want to go all the way with it and be the best I can be.
        
    As you can see, I know absolutely nothing about dressage and any
    help anybody can give me would be greatly appreciated.
    
   Susan
    
    
     
    
    
    
    

I can't resist answering this reply - even though I haven't "studied" dressage
for very long.  I was in your shoes a while ago, and believe me - you've come
to the right place for help!  I was out of the "horse world" for a number of
years and wanted to learn dressage and I have to thank alot of noters for my
"progress".  A few things I have learned (the hard way):  unlike the movie
Sylvester - a dressage horse is not made overnight nor is a dressage rider.
It can take years to develop.  The fundamental concepts are based on "feeling"
and learning to react timely and effectively.  Dressage means riding your
horse every second and not be just a passenger.  You assist your horse to
optimize his body, which evolves into a balanced, happy, coordinated horse.

Some of the things people suggested to me, and that I found helpful, is to
audit clinics and schooling shows.  Although, I have trouble at shows when
I don't know what test is being performed and test is not getting read out
loud.  Clinics for training level are my cup of tea, the higher levels are
fun to watch but overwhelming to understand at times.

Probably the most important thing is to find a good instructor.  There are
some talented instructors in the New England area.  Some are quite expensive 
(30-50 per hour).

As far as books and clinics go - keep an open mind as you study different 
techniques - I have found there tend to be many different ways to accomplish
the same result.  (this is discussed in an earlier dressage note and is very
helpful).  As long as you feel confident about the instructors accomplishments,
feel satisfied with your own progress and don't feel as though the horse is
being "forced" into something - than you're probably on the right road to 
learning dressage.

This is my opinion, as I had mentioned earlier, I've only been seriously
learning dressage for a year or so.....


Good luck!

    Although there will probably be alot of people who disagree, a saddle
    seat rider who switches to dressage will have the most difficulty
    changing the seat but the hands should basically be correct. When
    you change over you might find that one of the hardest thing to get
    used to is the change in seat and leg position but your hands should
    actually be the easiest to change. There is a pretty good video
    cassette called Introduction to Dressage narrated by Bill Woods
    and ridden by Kathy Connelly which does a nice job explaining things
    about dressage in 45 minutes or so for the lower levels.
    
    Have fun!
    
    Linda

    
    I have been taking lessons in dressage for about the last year in
    the southern NH area.  the lessons have ranged from $20-$30 hr for
    private lessons, and the horses have been provided.  The people
    I have rode with are all excellent riders/instructors and also compete
    in the area.  
    
    I agree with a previous reply that it takes years to make a dressage
    rider or dressage horse.  Everyone I have rode with has stressed
    "feel the horse".  If you cannot develop that feel then you will
    not progress very far, because the whole basis of dressage is that
    feel.  
    
    I don't know of any clinics coming up - it is a bit late in the
    season.  You may have better luck come spring.  There is a list
    of books earlier in this note, both for beginners and for more advanced
    dressage riders.  What you may want to do, is call a couple of stables
    and ask to come watch some of their better rider's lessons.  This
    will not only let you see them in a lesson, but will also give you
    an idea about dressage.
    
    From my understanding, you can get a horse that has been started
    in dressage for $2500 and up.  There are no particular breeds that
    do better than others, the main thing you look for is the horses
    ability, whether he is athletic, and how his gaits are.  Someone
    else may be better qualified than I as to what to look for.  I would
    suggest that if you do buy one, to take an experienced dressage
    rider with you.
    
    Good Luck.  I really enjoy dressage, but it has a whole different
    set of challenges than other riding disciplines.
    
    Sherry
    
    

    So you got bitten by the bug, too!
    
    I suggest that before you jump right in and purchase something,
    you might want to start in on your lessons first to see if this
    is really what you want and if you really enjoy it.  It is a lot
    of hard work and concentration, especially if you want to compete.
    You will be against riders/trainers that have been doing this for
    years and if they are schooling a young/green horse, they may be
    in the same class as you - Dressage competition is not separated
    by rider ability, it's by the horse's ability.
    
    The suggestion of auditing lessons is good - try different stables,
    and ask if they'd mind you watching a few lessons.  This will give
    you an idea of how the instructor teaches and if you like that person's
    techniques.  You should also watch lessons at various levels so
    you can see what you'd be learning at the lower levels as well.
                                                 
    More clinics will be popping up in the spring, and there are books
    and video tapes available at most tack shops and some libraries.
    If you can rent some videos, that should give you a pretty good
    idea what it's all about and what's required of horse and rider.
    Check the earlier note that lists books on dressage.
    
    A horse that has been started in dressage and has done some successful
    showing usually starts at around $4000 (yes you will find varying prices,
    but for quality horses in this area, that seemed to be an average
    price - maybe less in the winter time).  I just spent a year looking
    and ended up with a green 3 yo that I'm planning to train myself,
    but I did get a pretty good idea of what's available in the MA and
    NH area - and for what prices.
    
    The statement that there is no breed that is better in dressage
    is not quite accurate since, for example, many of the warmblood breeds,
    as well as the Lippizan and Andalusian/Andalusian crosses have been bred
    specifically for movement and temperment, whereas other breeds have
    different goals that they are bred for.  There are some horses in
    certain breeds that just don't have the stride or fluid movement
    of other horses that were specifically bred for dressage.  If, like
    you said, you are planning to go all the way (I assume you mean
    to Grand Prix), then be prepared to spend closer to $10K for a horse
    that shows potential to go that far.
    
    Horses with this potential are few and far between, and if you want
    something that has been trained to this level, start looking at
    figures of $25K and upwards.       
    
    You'd be best to find a trainer/instructor that you really feel
    comfortable with, and who will work with you to give you all the
    basics before moving on.  This may require a few months of just
    lunging lessons so you can work on your seat and legs.  Dressage
    is not something you can learn in 6 months - and even after a few
    years of it, there's always more to learn.
    
    Good luck, and don't hesitate to ask for more info - the dressage
    noters love to respond!
    
    Julie

    Saddleseat to dressage.  Yes it does take work but it can be done.
    (As I well know.)  The hardest is retraining your leg to go AROUND
    the horse.  This will take some time to physically retrain your
    muscles.  However, I know lots people who have made the transition.
    (Plus it will make your saddleseat riding better.)  
    
    There are a few of us who go back and forth for one reason or another.
    And for me, when I get in a tough spot, my instinct STILL is to
    pull my leg off the horse.  I'm still trying to get over that feeling.
     
    I agree with previous notes.  Get GOOD lessons and study for a while
    before you buy a horse (or retrain one).  Hopefully you aren't in
    the situation to try to retrain yourself AND your old saddleseat
    horse (like I was many moons ago.) 
    
    Good luck and enjoy.
    
    Mary Jo
    

	Did anyone audit/participate in the Robert Hall clinic?  I planned to
audit it, but ended up missing it.  Any comments?  

re .236

Susan,

	I agree with Linda about dressage riding and saddleseat riding
being entirely different.  In fact I think a Western seat more closely
resembles a dressage seat.  

	But as you can see, we dressage noters are all for it!  I think
you'll find dressage riding to be highly rewarding.   

Okay, are there any other takers out there?

Melinda

    Melinda,
    
    You didn't miss much at the R.H. clinic.  I was a bit disappointed
    by it, as were other people I talked to that audited and/or
    participated.
    
    The one thing I noticed about each lesson is that R.H. didn't work
    at all on the rider - ie. aids or position of leg or hand or seat
    -he just seemed to concentrate on the horse, and he sort of used
    the same methods with each horse/rider combination, instead of
    tailoring things to each pair.  He didn't work on the canter with
    any of the pairs I saw.  Then there were things he told people to
    do, but he didn't explain his reasoning for it.  
    
    I expected to see more than I did.  Maybe someone who was there
    on Sun, or later in the day Sat. saw better sessions, but the ones
    I saw were pretty dull.

    
    Melinda,                       
    
    I also attended the Hall clinic, and I guess I got a little more
    out of it than Julie.  What I found interesting is the way that
    he was trying to get the horses to flex and bend and relax.  As
    was mentioned in earlier notes, he would get the rider into a
    particular frame, and then wait for the horse to do what the rider
    was asking.  The rider would be very still and would usually not
    give any aids.  He stressed the thought process very much.  Such
    as "Imagine what you want your horse to feel like, imagine what
    it would be like if your horse was balanced..."  It appeared that
    he didn't tell the riders what to do by asking them to give aids,
    but rather by asking them to think what they wanted to do.  By
    thinking, you automatically give very sensitive aids.   
    
    What I did notice is that he was very successful with some horses
    and had no progress with others.  This is not surprising, as you
    can't train every horse the same way.  His attitude seemed to be,
    well if your horse doesn't respond to my methods, then there is
    nothing I can do with the horse.  While I doubt this is his attitude
    at his stable, this was certainly the case at the clinic.  In fact,
    1 horse left the clinic because Hall said he couldn't help him.
    This belief probably stems back to the "thinking process".  Cause
    if the horse is not relaxed or sensitive enough, then he would not
    be able to pick up on the subtle aids given by thinking.
    
    
    So, all in all, I found it very interesting to watch.  I don't know
    if I would ride in one of his clinics though.  It would all depend
    on the horse, and how many days the clinic was.  
    
    Sherry
    
    
    

    Did anyone participate in or attend the benefit show Nov. 29th?
    If so, how was it and what was the turnout like?
    
    I just reread Sherry's note about Robert Hall trying to get the
    horses to flex and bend, etc., and it made me think about his process
    some more.  I did notice that he didn't use much in the way of leg
    aids, nor did he tell any of the participants to encourage the
    horse on with their calves.  He did concentrate on the relaxation
    and flexion of the poll, but my question is how can you work on
    this part of the process if the horse isn't really creating energy
    from behind - isn't this almost like creating a frame/false head
    set?  
    
    I know the horses did relax, (probably because they were giving
    in to the pressure on the reins) but the hindquarters tend to get
    left behind a bit.  The trainers/instructors I've worked with usually
    get after the hind end first before attempting to do anything up
    front.  (this is on a more advanced horse - with the greens ones
    that tend to rush, we slow the rate of speed first, then encourage
    the horse to stretch without speeding up).  Once you get the horse
    using the hind end actively, then you can start shortening the frame,
    but your legs must be there to keep the impulsion, otherwise you've
    just lost everything that you had gained.
    
    It's very easy for the horse to get into a false head set, with its 
    back still hollow, and sometimes the rider can be fooled because he 
    thinks the horse has flexed properly because it's head is in the
    correct place.  Once the horse has been properly engaged and relaxed, 
    the difference in stride and feel is enough to make the rider aware
    of the difference between the false frame and the correct frame.  
    Judges are very quick to pick up on this, also.  

    Lets hear some more thoughts on this.

    
    Yes, Robert Hall did not place much emphasis on the rider's legs,
    but he was using them when he rode.  It seems like what he was trying
    to do was to get the horses to slow down and "give" to the bit
    simultaneously.   I actually didn't hear him talk to much about
    getting the impulsion (course I could have been day dreaming when
    he did mention it ).  Is it true that if you get the horse to slow
    down and to flex that you usually automatically will get the "correct"
    frame - even though you may be lacking in the impulsion?
    
    Actually, when I rode with one of his students, they both taught
    me to use my legs to keep the impulsion, so it may be that Robert
    Hall did not think that the people there were at a point to start
    worrying about the impulsion.  
    
    It would seem to me that if your horse is going to quickly, then
    you shouldn't be worrying about impulsion, but rather, you should
    be concentrating on slowing the horse down, which will hopefully
    relax the horse, and will get the correct headset, at that point
    you can start to try to get impulsion.
    
    Most of the horses I saw were pretty green, so maybe that was what
    he was trying to accomplish.
    
    Sherry
    
    

re .246

Sherry, 

When you asked the question:

" Is it true that if you get the horse to slow down and to flex that you
usually automatically will get the "correct" frame -- even though you may
be lacking in the impulsion?" 

I would say this usually isn't true.   When a green horse is too quick
he doesn't have "impulsion."  And I believe impulsion is necessary in
achieving a correct frame.  So just slowing the horse down won't be
enough.  I agree  with you about trying to encourage him to slow down first,
so long as the "slowing down" process isn't done by the reins alone.
In fact, the slowing down is often a result of impulsion.

Lets hear some more theories...

melinda

    At the risk of going down a rat hole on this subject, (R.H. using leg)
    what I consider using leg is when the rider's leg (from knee to
    heel) is visibly wrapped around the horse's barrel, and is actively
    'squeezing' the barrel when impulsion is needed (this is not
    necessarily obvious to the viewer).  What I observed is a straight 
    leg (from the knee down), and only using part of the lower 
    leg to support the horse around turns, rarely for impulsion because 
    the horse he was riding needed to be slowed down.
    
    In any case, lets get off the subject of R.H., and concentrate more 
    on the questions that were brought up about technique for training/
    schooling.  
    
    Slowing a horse down and flexing doesn't automatically give you
    the proper frame, because you can have a horse that is doing a medium
    trot and still be in the correct frame.  A true medium trot almost
    feels like a lengthened trot, but the shoulders/forelegs do not
    extend to the same amount.  I had stated in 10.245 that with a horse
    that rushes/trots fast (usually young/green ones) you need to teach
    them to slow down and balance themselves before you can work on
    carriage and impulsion.  Slowing a horse does not give you the proper
    headset.  You can force a horse's head into a set, but if the back is
    hollow, and the hind end not engaged, then what have you achieved?
    
    You need to establish 3 correct gaits before even thinking about frames, 
    flexion, etc.  When the horse is going at a pace established by the
    rider, and is accepting contact with the bit, then you can concentrate
    on establishing a certain length of rein (ie. for a training level frame
    or a first level frame), and by asking for a little more impulsion from
    the hind end, drive the horse forward into the rein (not a stiff unyielding
    hand, but one that relaxes when the horse flexes).  

    At this point, if the earlier training has been successful, the horse 
    should feel the extra pressure on his mouth, and start to give in a bit, 
    by relaxing the back and neck muscles - maybe even chewing the bit, etc.  
    The rider must recognize/feel the horse's effort and reward him by 
    relaxing his/her arm muscles, but not giving the rein forward (you want 
    the horse to know that you've established a little shorter contact, and 
    for him to be comfortable, he will have to shorten his frame - ie. nose 
    to tail - slightly).  At the upper levels, this is what translates to 
    the more elevated head/neck carriage.  

    By having the horse transfer more weight to the hind end, he lightens
    the forehand and can step under his body more with the hind legs.  This
    will help him round his back more, which makes it easier for him to relax
    at the poll and give in to your hands (ie. flexing).  Flexing should be
    a result of the above process, not the first step (which is how I've
    seen some horses trained for saddle seat - the trainer admitted that it 
    was a short-cut to get the head set they needed, since owners wanted
    quick results).

    Barbara Edwards asked me to enter this note......
    
    Someone video taped one of her lessons on her new horse at the Robert
    Hall clinic last month.  She would very much like a copy of the
    tape and dosen't know who the person was....perhaps a noter?
    
    Any leads would be appreciated.
    
    Jeannie
    

How would all the dressage noters feel about setting up some of our
own clinics for next season?  I've been meaning to suggest this
for some time.  

I just scanned through the dressage notes and found that we have
at least 12 people who are active dressage riders.   Plus, we all have our
own contacts outside of the notesfile and could probably drum up plenty
of interested clinic participants (if we need them).

I was going to wait until our "spring get-together" before suggesting this,
but then realized that NOW is the time to book instructors.  Ofcourse
we'd have to determine which instructors we'd be interested in, and where
we could meet.  
Most of the time clinics are a money making venture for a club, or farm.
This way, we could keep the cost down, choose the location of the
clinic (ie keep it from being in upstate VT), and ofcourse, choose
the instructor.

Does this sound interesting?  

Melinda

    Melinda,
    
    This does sound like a good idea, although it may be difficult to
    find a location?  I know that where I board, the owner's very concerned
    about liability and bringing other horses onto the property because
    of the broodmares and foals (ie. the horses would have to have recent
    coggins tests as well as rhino shots, etc.)
    
    If someone knows of a location that can be rented or volunteered,
    I can certainly think of a bunch of instructors to post here as
    possible instructors for the clinic.  I also know people who may
    be interested in riding in it.  I think the price may also be less
    than usual, because all we'd be paying for is the instructor's time
    and the location (if we found something to rent) - and this would
    be split among all the participants.

    This will take some organizing, and you may need one or two additional
    people to help coordinate things.  Someone would also have to be 
    responsible for putting together a waiver/entry form.  And we'd need 
    a treasurer/secretary to accept applications and entry fees, set up 
    the riding times, and make sure the instructor and owner of the 
    facility are paid.

    Has anyone done something like this before? Or do you board at a
    facility that may be willing to support and maybe participate in
    something like this?  I would think that if we are just using a
    local instructor, people won't be willing to pay much more than
    $20 or $25 since they can just take a private lesson for that much
    with their regular instructor. If we get someone that's a dressage
    judge or a noted trainer/instructor, then a higher fee may be
    acceptable.  That's just my opinion, I'd like to hear what others
    think.  Of course, if people wish to audit, that may be free or
    very minimal depending on the total cost of the clinic and number
    of participants.    

    I think this is a great idea, and from all of Julie's inputs I think
    we have some people who are experienced in setting something like
    this up!  I'd be glad to help out, after the holidays, any way I
    can.
    
    

    
    I would be more than happy to assist in any way. I myself am not
    a dressage rider, but like to audit clinics when possible.  I know
    Whit Parker from Summitwynds Farm in Jefferson Mass along with Pegasus
    Farm in Westford Mass, both have offered the use of their indoor
    rings for this type of thing in the past. I can't say what the fee
    would be however.  
    
    -M-
    

    
    This sounds good to me!  Now for the place,  what about a state
    fair ground, or a state park or a 4-H ground.  In the town I live
    in, there is a old farm is open to the public - I have no idea whether
    they would allow something like this.  In New Boston, there is the
    4-H gounds that they rent out to people.  I would be willing to
    help out in some way.
    
    Sherry
    
    

Since there seems to be some interest in this "notesfile clinic" idea,
I thought I'd let you know what I've been dreaming up...

Yes, finding a central location is a must in order to make it worthwhile. 
Perhaps, after the holiday each of us could look into places we know and
come up with some options.   If we decide on a place where night board is
available, then we might be more inclined to hold a 2 day clinic.  

For now I've been thinking of a one day clinic on a weekend day.  Does
this seem too short to be worth the effort?  Would you be willing to
haul your horse somewhere for just one lesson?  Also, do you feel that
we MUST have a place with an indoor?  I know it gives everyone a safe
feeling in case of bad weather.  I think if we were willing to have
it outdoors we could find a place rent-free.   Maybe one of the noters
would volunteer (!)  Also, the instructor we decide upon may have a facility
we could use!  I'm confident we can find a place to hold it.  

Ofcourse we'll need to agree on a list of potential instructors.  I think it 
would be interesting to shoot for people we've never had lessons from before. 
I also think it would be great to bring in someone from outside our immediate
area.  This way, we'd be getting lessons from someone who we wouldn't 
ordinarily haul our horse to for a lesson.  Ofcourse we'd have to pay for
transportation expenses... and depending on whether we had to rent a 
place, it might still be feasible.  

I'm guessing that an instructor might charge $500.00 a day for a clinic.
This is my worst case guess.  (comments?)  Figuring he/she will give 8 lessons
with a minimum of 3 riders in each lesson... sounds like we'd need 24 riders,
which works out to be ~ 21.00 apiece - BEFORE rental costs and instructor 
transportation expenses.  

Please offer comments/suggestions... 

Melinda

    I have to start out by apologizing for being so forgetful but could
    someone either point me to the note or answer the question about
    whether Kathy Connelly teaches through the winter (at her farm)
    and if so, what are her prices? 
    
    Thanks in advance for any info (and I'll try not to forget this
    time!)
    
    Linda
    

    Linda,
    
    I think Kathy Connelly is listed in note 328 (services directory)
    You could call her and ask what her winter schedule is.  If you
    find out, could you post the info/prices here? - thanks
    
    
    Melinda, I'm not sure about the figure $500/day, but I know that
    some of the high level instructors that Martha has come to her barn
    usually charge $50 or $55/hr and I think some of that covers their
    air fare.  I suppose that we should find out how much people are
    willing to spend, and if they are interested in riding in a group.
    I know that some people prefer to have private lessons.  I suppose
    the price will also depend on the instructor.  Marge Kitteredge
    is a dressage judge, and she might be a candidate for this, but
    she is usually so busy I don't know if she'd have time - or be too
    expensive for what we want.  Mona Sansoucy gave a small clinic at
    a barn in NH - a friend of mine arranged it, and I don't think it
    was too expensive.  
    
    Probably the first thing to do is find a location and find out how
    much it will cost to rent.  Then find out how much people feel is
    reasonable to spend for the clinic (for example, say $40).  If you
    also call a few instructors to get an average of what they charge/day,
    then you can estimate what it will cost/person because you will know the 
    total price of the location, plus an average for the instructor/day,
    plus what we are willing to spend.  From that, then you can say
    that we need a minimum of X people to keep the cost at or below $40/person.

    After that, we can start listing potential instructors, and as you
    call them, you'll probably have to eliminate many of them because
    they don't have the time or they are too expensive, or they live
    too far away, etc. but at least you will have some guidelines to
    work from.

    
    I asked my instructor about this last week, and he mentioned that
    the owner of the barn may be willing to allow us to have a clinic
    there.  I can give her a call and find out. This place has a HUGE
    indoor arena where you could easily have 5-6 horses riding
    simultaneously without feeling crowded.
    
    As for instructors, there is also Mary Howard in Amhest NH.  I think
    she gives clinics.  My current instructor rides with her.
    
    

               RE:.257-  Do you know George Hasbany? He's the one who
    arranges Monas' clinics at Shannon Trails. If that is the one you
    are refering to. She's had a couple clinics there. All the riders
    were quite satisfied with them. 
               Anyway, my fiance has taken our little T.B. in both of
    them and he even seemed to like it! Of course I'm not prejudice
    but, "Peanuts", as we so fondly call him, was said to be one of 
    best of the day! I mean even after he nibbled alittle on Mona, she
    still liked him. Excuse me for getting off track here but when I
    talk about"my"(oooppps)"our" horse, I tend to get carried away.
    So, if you do in fact know George, talk to him. He could give you
    details or whatever. Or I'd be happy to find out what ever I can
    for you. Just let me know. I hope we are talking about the same
    person after all this rambling I've done here!
    
                 Bob
     

    re .259
    
    Yes I know George.  However, Marsha Parker is the one who originally
    set up the first clinic(s) with Mona.  From there George probably
    got involved and has decided to take over.  He never bothered to
    let Marsha know what the schedule of clinics was that he set up.
    
    Melinda, what's happening with the clinic arrangements - any new
    info, or are you still looking for a location?  Maybe we can discuss
    it more at the get-together, if everyone is able to make it.
    
    Do you have an idea as to when you will hold it?  With the weather
    the way it's been, I don't know how much riding everyone has been
    able to do - thus the horses probably won't be in great shape until
    March or so.  Then, trying to find an instructor with a free weekend
    after April gets to be a little tough!

    I am planning to start showing my Swedish Warmblood in Second Level
    this year, after 3 years at First!  I can read the tests, and know
    the difference in movements, but would be interested in seeing a
    discussion on what is the difference between 1st and 2nd levels,
    and what exercises you might suggest to work on, once the weather
    begins to warm up to at least over 0!
    
    Thanks for your help.
    
    Sue
    

    Hi Sue - 
    
    One of the biggest differences in going from 1st to 2nd is that
    the judges start to look for a little bit more elevation in front
    and a little more use of the hindquarters (ie. more 'sitting' action).
    The horse should be very supple and not resisting.  He should show
    a constant frame (ie. not going above or below the bit), and his
    lengthenings and lateral movements should be a bit more polished.
    
    You should get a hold of the descriptions that are often in NEDA
    publications or maybe the Omnibus that explain what is required
    at each level.  
    
    You should be working on shoulder-ins, travers, renvers, etc.
    to keep the horse supple, and look at the movements of the test
    above the one which you want to ride in a show.  You'll want to
    work on some 10 meter circles at the trot and canter and make sure
    your horse is ready for the more advanced movements so that he's
    not forced into them.  I don't have the tests with me to look at,
    but you might be required to do a medium trot in one of them?  This
    trot might be something you'll want to work on since first level
    requires only a working trot and a lengthened trot.
    
    The medium trot is in between the two, and depending on how brilliant
    your horse's lengthening is, you don't want to go overboard with
    the medium trot.
    
    A good guideline may be to add a little more brilliance to the gaits
    and movements that you were doing in first level.  There won't be
    too much difference between the 1st level test 4 and 2nd level test
    1 as far as movements, but you will be judged a little harder. 
                               
    Take your horse out on some trail rides, too.  This gets his mind
    of the boring ring work and will build up his endurance a little
    more.  Do some galloping stretches and other things to vary his
    routine.  If he has a fresh approach to his training sessions, then
    he'll probably learn a little quicker.
    
    Good luck,
    Julie

I've looked into having a 2 day clinic at Honey Lane Farm in Dublin NH.
They have facilities for 28 horses to board one or two nights, plus they
have facilities for 28+ riders to spend the night in their lodge
(which looks like a Hilton inside).  They told me they could be very flexible
setting up different package prices for individual riders.  Their prices
seem very reasonable for horse and/or rider overnights.  They'll even
provide meals.   I left the breakdown of prices at home but will list
them here tomorrow.  I thought perhaps we could arrange for video taping
of our clinic and have an evening critique of our riding (given by
the instructor).  

Also, I talked to Mary Howard Saturday about doing the clinic.  She's
going to look over her schedule, but doesn't think she can commit to
anything after the end of March.  (Since she'll be competing in 
Europe this spring plus she's long listed for the Olympic team...)
I didn't rule her out, but I do think March (even late March) might be a
bit too early for a clinic.   Would any of you have your horses in shape
by then?  I know it would give me incentive to get ready by then.  

I'm going to start checking into other instructors too.  Some ideas are:

Lendon Gray
Bill Woods
Kathy Connelly
Micheal Poulin
.
.
.

I have the USDF directory which lists instructors, so I can use that as a
guideline also.

Please let me know if any of you have been checking into facilities.  I haven't
made any committments yet.   I wouldn't be nervous about finding enough riders
for the clinic if we have it at Honey Lane Farm, since there are about 10
boarders there who would want to ride in a dressage clinic.  But maybe we'd
have no trouble finding 28 riders; I don't know.  

Melinda

    Melinda, you mentioned Kathy Connelly.. I'm not sure when you are
    looking into having the clinic but Kathy is in Florida right now
    and I'm not sure when she is coming back...
    
    What about Kris Bobo? She lives right in Lunenburg and is a wonderful
    instructor!
    
    Linda
    

    Melinda,                                             
    
    There are also a list of instructors in note 328.  Some others
    are Sue Blinks, Sue Woods, Marge Kitteredge, Mark Weissbecker who's
    also long listed, Keith Angstadt, and Mona Sansoucy (as mentioned in
    an earlier note).  Marge and Mark are also dressage judges.  That
    may be another option, finding a judge that also instructs on occasion,
    then you could have him/her talk about what a judge looks for on
    certain movements (eg. halt, walt-trot transitions, leg-yielding).
    
    Did you get any kind of price quote from Honey Lane Farm?  Where
    is Dublin, NH? 

    Melinda,
    
    I would also be interested in a Clinic this Spring.  I am sure I
    could also get together other riders if necessary.  Kris Bobo sounds
    like a good possiblity.  I have recently had the opportunity to
    work with Sue Fisher and I am continuing to do so until her time
    runs short.  She is a very good instructor and can really get you
    and your horse motivated and working. She is very down to earth
    and pleasant to talk to. (Not to mention a very sucessful competitor!)
    If anyone was interested I could talk to her and see if she would
    be interested in doing a clinic for us.  She is currently at Ashby
    Pastures Farm in Ashby, MA.  I don't know if a clinic could be held
    there?  Maybe another possiblity?

Honey Lane Farm is located 45 minutes from Nashua traveling Rt 101W, or
40 minutes from Route 2 in Gardner.  Its located just on the outskirts of
Peterborough NH.

HLF has worked out costs as follows:


HLF Service                       1 Day Cost        2 Day Cost
------------------------------+-----------------+-------------------
Arena use                     |    175          |  300
Stabling ($10 day cost)       |                 |
        ($12 night + day cost)|    10           |   22  
                              |                 |
Accomodations w/breakfast     |    30           |   50
(double occupancy)            |                 |
                              |                 |
Meals - Sat lunch & supper;   |    14           |   20
        Sunday lunch          |                 |
                              |                 |
Video taping                  |    ?            |    ?

Note: Any of these options can be provided a la carte.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm working on planning a 2 day clinic with a maximum of 3 sessions per
rider (2 lessons Saturday, 1 lesson Sunday).   However, riders may choose
to ride in 1, 2, or 3 sessions.  

I've estimated instructor costs to be $500 - $800 dollars a day.
We need a minimum of 15 riders and can accept a maximum of 28 riders.
I've estimated a breakdown of costs per session:

1 group session  (3-5 riders) --->  35.00

2 group sessions (3-5 riders) --->  70.00

3 group sessions (3-5 riders) --->  105.00 

private lessons  (limited)    --->   50.00

semi-private     (limited)    --->   40.00

I hope these are high estimates, and that the actual lesson cost will be
much less.  

If we go by these estimates, then I expect the maximum total cost per customer
for a 2 day day clinic with three lessons, one overnight board for horse and
rider, all meals provided, to be about $197.00.  Am I scaring anyone yet?
I thought this seemed reasonable, but I think we should consider other 
facilities and compare costs.  Please look into facilities you may know of so 
we can decide which is most centrally located, etc.. 

I know Ashby Pastures runs their own clinics and shows and I'm not sure if
they'll "rent" their facilities to outsiders.  Also, finding a place where
overnight boarding is available is difficult.  I though HLF sounded
good since the riders could also spend the night and could plan some
evening event (a critique of our riding, watch a dressage tape, etc).  Plus 
I suspect other facilities will charge more than 175 per day for arena use.  


Melinda

    Melinda, I don't know about anyone else, but that would be much
    too much money for me. The lesson cost seem very high. I've never
    paid more than $35.00 an hour for a private lesson (so $50.00 seems
    rather pricey!)
    
    Also, with added travel costs, etc. that adds up to a very expensive
    clinic. Would there be options to trailer up just one day or would
    weekend attendance be required? I know none of this is set in concrete
    but just 1 day attendance might be a possibility...
    
    Melinda, Thanks for all the leg work that you are doing!
    
    Anybody have any ideas for any places closer?
    
    Linda

    I agree that a figure close to $200 is expensive (especially since
    it's about 2/3 my board for the month).  I think that depending
    on the instructor, the price could range anywhere from $35 - $50+
    for a private lesson.  For instance, when we've had Jules Nyssen
    (sp?) for clinics at Martha's he charges $50/private lesson, and
    when Alex Cognac comes up from FL (he's an excellent dressage trainer)
    he charges $55/lesson.  If we found a good instructor who's not
    necessarily a 'top name', that might help cut the costs somewhat.
    
    I also thought you were initially looking into a 1-day clinic? 
    If you did that, then maybe you could hire someone to video tape
    each ride, then get the instructor to go over the tapes with each
    rider at the end of the day or something?
    
    I know it's going to take a lot of work to set something up like
    this - keep up the good work.

I just talked to Beth Jenkins and she is available for a one day clinic
on April 9th, 10th, 16th, or 17th.  She charges $40.00 an hour (for either
group or private).  This makes the lesson prices much lower:  

1 group session  (3-5 riders) --->  20.00
2 group sessions (3-5 riders) --->  40.00
private lessons  (limited)    --->  45.00
semi-private     (limited)    --->  30.00

Beth Jenkins gives clinics and judges and has an excellent reputation for
working well with her students.  I think she's a very positive instructor
and would work well with a "mixed-level" group of riders.  I mentioned
the video tape critique and she said that would be fine. 

Is April too early?   Would you go?  Please let me know so we try to
confirm something.   

Melinda

    Melinda, Beth Jenkins is wonderful! I have never ridden with her
    but I was stabled next to her last year and, what a nice, knowledgeable
    lady! She also is very much into working with what you have...
    
    Also, early April would probably be the best time because that would
    be a couple of weeks before the first few shows in this area.
    
    Thanks again Melinda for the work!
    
    Linda
    

Since not enough people could commit to the Beth Jenkins clinic,
I've decided to cancel the plans.   Maybe at the get-together we
could talk about arranging something later in the season. 

Melinda

    
    Melinda, I just got into this note today.  I wish I would have
    seen your idea for a clinic earlier.  I would be interested.
    
    Let us know if you are planning any more clinics with Beth or any
    others.
    
    Thanks, Jenny
    

    I am an exsaddleseat/western rider who after purchasing a Morgan
    2 months ago has started to take dressage riding lessons.  
    
    Basically, I know nothing about dressage but what I have learned
    so far I have found very interesting and I have really enjoyed it.
    I plan on showing at the training level not this summer but the
    next.  
    
    My question is: what are the requirements for a Morgan's mane in dressage?
    
    I have been told that I can keep his mane long with some scalloped
    style braiding but right now he has a long bridle path too as he was 
    ridden saddleseat before I bought him.  My instructor who has always had
    Thoroughbreds is not sure.  She thinks I should grow it out.
    
    But my friend I bought the horse from said that I should keep the style
    that fits the breed not the type of riding (she said a judge told her
    that at a show once).
    
    So my question is:  "To grow; or not to grow"?  
    
    Sue
    
    

    A long mane is perfectly acceptable in the dressage arena.  I'd
    grow the bridle path out, though, for both tradition and appearance
    when the mane is braided.
    
    The mane can be braided a number of ways -  little pigtail type
    braids scalloped together is pretty if the mane is thin enough.
    Thicker manes look better in a french braid.  My morgan has a very
    long mane (leftover from her park horse days) which I arrange into
    a "Russian net".  All these braiding techniques are illustrated
    in "Grooming to Win". Whatever you do, avoid colored tape on the
    braids.
    
    And about tails...  If I braid a mane and the tail has not been
    "pulled", I also braid the tail.
    

I don't remember where I heard this, but I thought it was improper to
braid a dressage horse's tail.   In my 12 years of dressage showing
experience, I've never seen this done (or if I had, I must have thought
it was incorrect).  

As for the mane, it's not uncommon to see french braids done on horses
with long manes.  You always want to use white yarn/tape in either
case.  

    I keep my Morgan's mane long and do the scalloped braids - I thin
    her mane a bit since it's fairly thick.  I would braid with what
    you have right now and grow out the bridle path over next winter.
    
    I also heard that braiding the tail causes some restriction or hair
    pulling with the horse moves it's tail (not much, but some) so it's
    not recommended for dressage horses.  Can't remember where I heard
    this.  I don't pull my horse's tail and just keep it full.  I haven't
    gotten any comments on it.
    
    						Jan

    Thank you for the advice.  I plan on purchasing the book "Grooming
    to Win".  I think it should answer some questions.
    
    I am glad to hear I can keep my gelding's mane and tall long.  They
    really are beautiful.  His tail almost reaches the ground and it's 
    flaxen in color (he's a liver chestnut).
    
    I really dread it, but I guess I will start to grow out his 6" bridle
    path since I don't plan on showing him this summer.  I will show him
    the following summer when I feel more confident about my riding.
    
    I should keep little bit of the bridle path, shouldn't I?  It was
    suggested to me to have it twice the width of his bridle (2"?). Is
    that true?
    
    Sue
    

      Although a pulled tail has become more popular in recent years,
    there isn't anything wrong with a braided tail.  I think you don't
    see it much for two reasons, it's a pain to do and some horses get
    uncomfortable if braided (especially if it's too tight). I've shown
    USDF shows with brided tails, with no ill effects.
    
    The french braid in the mane is quick to do, but tends to bunch
    up and look coarse.  It's "legal" but not preferred.
    
    Another source for grooming tips is "The Event Groom's Handbook".
 
       

    Re: .280
    
    I don't know if there is a recommended length for a bridle path
    or not.  I have to keep mine 6" long since my horse wears a cribbing
    strap (:-() and the mane gets all crushed underneath the strap if I don't
    keep it clipped.  Twice the width of the bridle should be a good
    length.
    
    						Jan
    

    
    I have recently started riding a young connemara/thoroughbred cross
    (6 yrs).  He has been ridden mostly hunter/jumper with a minimum
    of flat work.  I am now riding him in flat work and trying to get
    him supple.  He has been doing the wierdest thing with his front
    legs, and I was wondering if anyone has an idea as to what he is
    doing. 
    
    After riding for a while and getting warmed up, when I try and get
    him to take the bit and flex at him poll, (is that the right 
    terminology?) he will often over flex and come behind the bit.
    At this point, he will start just sort of throwing his front feet
    out and flopping them down.   I am on him of course, so can't see
    what is going on, but it is almost like he is not using the front
    legs, but is just getting them out of the way????  It makes a loud
    clopping noise when his feet hit the ground.   His gait is very
    rough at this point, of course.  Any ideas what is going on?
    
    Also,  does anyone have suggestions on exercises to get him to bend
    besides tons of circles, figure 8's and serpentines?   He is very
    atheletic and can turn on a dime.  
    
    Sherry
    
    

Sherry,

I've seen horses do this at the walk and trot.  I think green horses
do this because when they're first asked to come on the bit, they feel
restricted and start the "Spanish walk" (I call it), where they reach
way up with their stride in front.

I think when a horse is asked to "round" or "come together" for the first time,
they don't understand the combination of driving aids and rein aids.  I think
they don't know whether to put on the brakes or put on the gas so they 
might try doing this strange action in front.  

You mentioned he only starts this "gait" when he's overflexed.  His frame
is unbalanced at this point, and I'm sure that contributes to the strange
steps.  

Some things that might help, ofcourse, is to try to prevent him from 
overflexing.  Drive him forward with your seat/legs whenever you think 
he's about to come behind.  At the same time, you can give a light 
upward action half halt to encourage him to keep his head up.   

If you think he's overflexing because he's not sure what he's doing
(ie he's not overflexing to resist your hand), then another strategy
might be to let him work out of it on his own.  Soon he'll learn that
this gait is uncomfortable for him and wears him out faster than
a normal trot gait.

You asked about bending exercises... (excluding O's, 8's and ~):
I've always believed that its never too soon to start some simple
lateral work with a horse.  Once they understand to "move away" from
you're leg, then I think they really start understanding the bending aids.

By simple lateral work, I mean first testing him from the ground, asking
him to step away from your hand when you push on him.  When this is a
cinch, then try some simple FORWARD moving leg yeildings for only 3 strides
on a circle, the long side, or wherever.  When he loses impulsion, its 
more important to go straight forward than to continue the exercise.

Well I hope this helps.  I'd like to hear what other people think too
since there's surely some other approaches.

Melinda

    re -.2
    Sounds like "too much too soon" to me. It takes time, more time
    than any of us have, to school a dressage horse. I have always worked
    and been told to work on lateral suppling/bending a horse first.
    A horse come "on the bit" from his rear, not through your hands.
    Overflexing usually indicates too much hand, which as a jumper with
    his nose strapped to his chest, your horse may already have hd too
    much.
     

    I agree with .285, too much too soon. 
    
    Over-bending is an evasion, and can be caused by not balancing your 
    legs and hands (ie. too much hand and not enough leg). Get your
    horse going forward at a nice walk first, let him relax at that
    pace and then tease his head down by gently asking with alternate hands
    but keep his pace active.
    
    The throwing out of the legs I believe is an expression of "what
    are you really asking me to do, I don't understand" and arises from
    not being pushed up onto the bit.  Try using more leg but be easy
    with your hands.
    
    Mike.

    
    I agree with all of you.  This guy is more sensitive to hands/legs
    and seat than any of the other horses I have ridden, coupled with
    the fact that I have not ridden at all in several months, I am having
    some difficulty in getting the right combination of hand/leg.  
    
    He has had some dressage schooling awhile ago - he does know lateral
    work and how to come onto the bit (I have succeeded in getting him
    to do that for short periods).   So as I suspected, it is something
    that I am doing wrong - which is not balancing out the signals to
    meet his sensitivity.  
    
    Well,  I guess I have my work cut out for me next time...
    
    Thanks for the help.
    
    Sherry
    

    I agree with the other responses....the horse sounds confused. 
    He also sounds tense....relaxation is so important in getting a
    horse to use himself properly.  I would try encouraging your horse
    to go in a longer frame with a light contact and as you begin to
    feel him relax (he should be using his back and lower his head and
    neck) then gradually take up more contact and gently encourage
    him to go in a rounder frame.  If he continues to drop behind the
    bit, be sure to keep the rein contact or he will continue to use this 
    evasion to get away from the rein.  As someone said before, this will 
    usually go away in time.  Good luck!
    
    Jeannie

I am looking for copies of the Training and First Level dressage tests.
The versions I have are several years old and I'm sure the tests have
been updated since then.  Does anyone have an Omnibus or other listing
that they could make copies from?   

Also, does anyone know where I can buy a pre-tied stock tie (with Velcro)?
I know this is cheating, but I can't remember how to tie my regular stock!

Joan
(NRO5/M2)

Re:.289 

Joan,  
    
	 I'll stick the dressage tests in the mail to you today.

	 As far  as  the stock tie is concerned, I think State Line used
     to  have the pre-tied ones. To tie a regular stock, you essentially
     make a square not and then cross the ends so one end is pointing at
     your left ribcage and the other to the right. Pin where they cross.
     Usually, I puff the ends by the knot up a little so that it sort of
     fills the jacket-shirt void around the collar.


	    Kathy Romberg

	 Note: I  think I remember entering the tests in this notes file
     last year when they changed - they may still be here, somewhere!

    
    Hello,
    
    My name is Gene Wright and I have Saddlebreds that I am training
    and raising for dressage . If you are still looking you may want
    to come up. Not only are Saddlebreds proven to be great dressage
    horses if given a chance they are also becoming known as Western
    pleasure horses as well. 
    
    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    My home phone is 802-644-5122 
    Yep that's right we're in Vermont.
    
    Tamarack Pond Saddlebred Farm
    Rt.1,Box 59
    Bartlett Hill Rd.
    Jeffersonville,Vt. 05464
    

    hello fellow dressage people...
    
    my name is janet snow and i just moved to this area (i now reside
    in groton, ma).  i have been riding for 17 years (dressage for 3
    years) and have never owned a horse.  howver, i just bought the
    horse that i have been riding for 2 years.  i don't have him yet--
    i'll bring him from his old home this fall.  what i'm looking for
    is someone to suggest possible boarding stables near me.  indoor
    arena is a must.  unfortunately, the phrase "money is no object"
    does not apply here.  it would help to have names and locations
    in the littleton, groton, ayer, etc area.  can anyone out there
    help me?  it would also be fun to start this topic going again.
     
    				with fingers crossed,
    						janet 
    

    My horse finally does true lengthenings and extensions!  And it's
    really neat!  We've worked awful hard and long (3yrs) but it's
    worth it!  Pardon the exuberance... I just couldn't contain myself.
    
    maureen
    

Janet,

There are boarding facilities listed in note 328.   When I was looking
for a place to board in Littleton, I came across Proctor Hill Farm
(phone: 486-4957).  This was a few years ago, but at the time, they
were less expensive than other Littleton area facilities.   If you worked
at King Street, you could walk there.   

Maureen,

Congrats on your progress w/lengthenings & extensions.  It's always
exciting to make a break through!   I've just recently had a break through
with my Percheron cross mare.  She's now cantering in a round frame.  Now
if we could just master those downward transitions... 

As for the other dressage noters:  Lets get talking again!  What have you 
been doing?  Who are your instructors?  What clinics have you taken?
What shows are you going to?   Tell us about your "break throughs."  

I've heard through the grapevine, that Linda Fox did very well at King Oak
Dressage Day at first level?  Care to fill us in Linda???  

I'm going to MEC August 6 & 7th, followed by Forest Hill Festival, followed
by NEDA.    Is anyone else going to these?   

Melinda

    maureen--
    
    thanks sooo much!  now i have a place to start.  i hadn't seen note#
    328 so i was pleased to see it.  i work in nashua but i live in
    groton (where i will be working come september).  i'm only at dec
    for the summer.  so there are a number of places i can try.  this
    is very exciting since i finally feel like i actually own a horse.
    i only decided to buy higgins just before i left deerfield so it
    hasn't sunk in yet.  is state line the best place for me to buy
    everything i need?  the main things i need are a bridle, and horse
    clothing, and brush box supplies (i have a dressage saddle and rider
    clothing).  from what i here state line is good.
    
    thanks again for helping out.  hope to be in touch with you more
    --and other dressagers too!
    
    janet.

    Hello Melinda, were you out at King Oak? I just went out for the
    day Friday (great excuse to take a day off!) 
    
    My horse was being a pretty good boy on Friday; he decided that
    maybe this dressage stuff wasn't quite as boring as he thought.
    I have to admit that my stomach was in a bit of jitters because
    I was 1 of about 3 Appaloosas (one of the other's was my mom) against
    all those beautiful warmbloods and Thoroughbreds, etc. 
    
    This was my critter's first dressage show for the year because he
    was layed up for most of the winter with a tendon sheath problem
    and we don't have lengthenings down completely (I'm envious Maureen!).
    We get a stride or two or good lengthening and then I tend to let
    him run out his right shoulder; oh well, someday I'll get it right!
    
    I was also a bit unnerved because in my first test, First I, I had
    to ride right after Lendon Gray and to make it worse, I forgot my
    test (the first time ever); horrors of all horrors is knowing that
    the next move is a halt and having absolutely no idea what to do
    after that! It was supposed to be a 5 second halt, then 6, 7 ...
    and then I figured I had best do *something*! Guess what, I picked
    wrong and lost 2 points for the error but the rest of the test went
    decently and you can bet that I didn't forget my next test, First
    II. :^)
    
    We're heading up to GMHA in August and then, gulp, onto NEDA for
    the Sweepstakes in September (a spotted fanny at NEDA ought to be
    real interesting!)
    
    Melinda, are you showing? How are your critters doing?
    
    Linda
    

    Forgetting a test happens to all of us sooner or later.  My most
    memorable experience was having a reader read the wrong test and
    having to ride my very first second level test (#4, why start simple)
    from memory. On a pinto/arab cross no less.
    
    The lengthenings etc are fun, but the downward transitions after
    lengthened canter can be a bit hairy on a snotty little event horse
    (who's absolutely sure he's a stud - even though he's not).  We
    also have wonderful simple changes these days.

    It seems everybody is making wonderful progress.
    
    maureen
    

Linda,

No I wasn't at King Oak ... I went to Doornhof and Forest Hill, then 
decided to take a break until MEC.  I'm planning on showing in the NEDA
sweepstakes also (at training level) -- possibly with 2 horses. You must
know that we practically have to federal express our entries in order
to get in.   Well keep up the good work, and I'll look for you at the 
shows!

Has anyone out there ever shown in a dressage breeding class before?
If so, would you care to elaborate?  I know the USDF publishes something
about the breeding class.   I showed in one before (not really knowing what 
I was doing), and I'm sort of considering entering the NEDA one with my 
mare and foal.   

Melinda

    
    Well, I had a minor success too!  After riding this new horse off
    and on for about 2 months, I have finally gotten him to engage his
    hind end!  This is quite a step since we started off by him "racking"
    (see previous note).  He knows how to do it, and I finally worked
    out the balance from hand/leg/seat.  
    
    Sherry
    

    melinda--
    
    so sorry, i mistakenly called you maureen.  my apologies--i must
    give credit where credit is due.  thanks again for your advice.
     now i have another question:
    
    my horse, higgins, has been going very well in a drop noseband and
    rubber (covered) snaffle.  however, now that i have bought him i
    need to buy my own bridle.  it seems that higgy chews through a
    bit each year when it is rubber covered.  is there something else tht
    is just has gentle but more durable?  also is there a significant
    difference between a drop nose and say a flash?
            
    janet
    

   Hi Janet,
    
    This time it really is maureen.
    
    Rubber bits really don't seem to last that long with any horse.
    The black rubber ones seem to disintegrate after about a year. 
    There are some bits coated with  white rubber/nylon that are on
    the market.  They seem harder than the black rubber.
    
    You might try getting a metal bit and wrapping it in latex (the
    same crepe type wrap that is sold to wrap legs with.  You can
    remove it if you want to and it's relatively inexpensive.
    
   On nosebands, I feel that the drop is the least severe of all the
   control nosebands we use.  Then the flash and the figure 8, in that
   order. The drop basically just keeps the mouth closed without a lot
   of pressure on the nose or jaw.  My horses are rather small and I
   have trouble finding a drop to fit, so we usually use a detachable
   flash. That way I can pick the bridle I want, instead of the one
   that comes with the noseband I need.
    
    maureen
    
   
    

    thanks maureen--
    
    that pretty much backs up what i thought.  higgy has a very soft
    mouth so i think if i can find a drop i'll use that.  he also has
    a small head so i can get him a cob sized bridle.  that sounds about
    right.  thanks for the advice.
    
    janet.

    Could someone describe a "flash" noseband?  I've never heard 
    that term before.  I know what a drop is and a figure 8...
    what's the difference?
    
    Gwen
    

    well, gwen, i'm not very good at describing things but here goes...
    
    a flash has a regular cavesson but it has a loop connected to it
    on top of the nose.  This holds another strap which buckles down
    over the bit. (whereas the drop does not have a cavesson.)  so it's 
    like two circular straps connected at the top.  does that make any 
    sense?  anyone have a better way to put it?

    janet

    OK, thanks, I think I can picture what a flash looks like. Now another
    question:  Why is that less severe than a figure 8?  They sound
    functionally the same.
                
    Gwen
    

    gwen--
    not really sure...maybe because with a figure 8 it's all one strap
    so that the pressure is different, or something.  can anyone else
    help out there?  (i guess this is kind of like "the blind leading
    the blind"!)  
    
    janet

    Ellie has been in training with Sheila McLevedge at the Cavendish
    Equestrian Center in VT.  I've been going up every weekend for lessons
    since December and things are finally coming together.  Sheila showed
    her at the CVDA Schooling Show, VT Morgan Horse Show, and Forest
    Hill.  We both showed her at Huntington Farm dressage show.  Ellie
    is now doing solid 2nd level work although the medium trot can be
    shaky at times, but at least she's really doing a medium trot this
    year!  The canter was our worst gait and she now canters straight
    (no more tranvers at the canter!) and does her simple changes nicely.
    
    We haven't gotten any great scores at shows yet (highest was 57.6%
    at VT Morgan) but at least we're holding our own.  Sheila said she
    was great at Forest Hill (I couldn't go), but doesn't have the score
    yet because she didn't want to wait around for it in the heat.
    
    We will both be riding Ellie at MEC on Aug. 7 (me - 2nd 1 or 2 -
    can't remember which, and Sheila 2nd 3 and 4).  We'll also be at
    GMHA (me - 2nd 1 and 2, Sheila - 2nd 4).  Our big problem is having
    a 15h Morgan compete against those huge warmbloods - she doesn't
    have the big stride they do.  But you can really tell she's using
    herself and going more collected - the muscling in her hindquarters
    has developed so much this year.
    
    If anyone notices us at shows, stop by and say hello.  Ellie is
    chestnut and has a freeze brand on the left side of her neck.
    
    						Jan

    about nosebands...
    
    Yes, the flash and figure 8 work pretty much the same.  The figure
    8 is more adjustable (the cheek length, position of nosepiece and
    of course the tightness).  Depending on how it's fitted, you can
    get a lot leverage and control without having it really tight. It
    also doesn't interfere with breathing, the way a tight flash or
    drop can.
    
    -maureen
    
        
     
    

    as some of you may know i have recently bought a horse that i have
    been riding for a couple of years.  however, he is going to have
    the summer off (no riding at all) until probably sept. or oct. 
    my question is:  are there things which i should avoid doing until
    he is back in good physical condition, even though he has done them
    before?  he will have been idle for about 3 months.
    
    maybe some background would help.  higgins goes on the bit easily,
    can lengthen at the trot and a little at the canter, and knows some
    lateral movements like leg-yield, haunches-in, shoulder-in (we were
    just beginning to teach him half-pass at trot in june.)  i showed
    him in a schooling show at training level and first level in may
    and he has been in training (ridden nearly daily) since february.
    how much muscle-tone and endurance will he lose?  (btw he is a
    7-year-old quarter horse gelding.)
    
    any words of wisdom out there?
    
    thanks in advance
    
    janet 

    My horses are idle for over 3 months every year - as soon as the
    footing gets bad in the winter, we stop riding, and don't start
    again till the footing gets good again.  If the horse is in good
    condition, it won't lose all that much muscle tone or endurance.
    
    We start with at least one week of walking - starting off with 1/2
    to 3/4 hour rides, going up to an hour.  The second week we start
    a little trotting, increasing the amount over the next two weeks.
    Then we start our regular conditioning program at 5 miles in 1 hour
    which usually involves just walk and trot anyways.  I don't think
    we do much canter till we get up to 7 miles in one hour.
    
    After the first two weeks of this, we start dressage schooling
    intermixed with the conditioning, keeping to the walk and trot.
    Then we do a little canter work as they get more fit.  You'd really
    be surprised how quickly they get back into condition if they were
    fit before a lay-off.
    
    						Jan    

    thanks for the advice jan.  it sounds very logical and common sensical
    (is that a word?)  i'm glad to hear that it won't take too long
    go get both of us back into shape.  
    
    tanks again.
    
    janet.

   .311 is a good start.
    
    Once you start dressage work, I'd proceed in much the same way you
    originally trained the horse - the working gaits first, and basic
    training level figures until they're used to working again. Maybe
    a little leg yield, shoulder-in or turn on the forehand too. The I add some 
    lengthenings, 10M circles, walk/canter transitions and turn on the
    haunches. I avoid any collected movements, including half pass until
    all the basic stuff is back on track as it takes a lot of strength
    and coordination.
    
    The whole process of bringing a horse back shouldn't take more than
    6-8 weeks, assuming the horse hasn't been off for an injury or mental
    problems. Just take it easy on both of you. Starting things off
    pleasantly is important - you both need time to get used to working
    again.  You'll see/feel resistance if you are pushing things too
    fast, so let your horse be your guide.
    
    -maureen
    
    
    

    ok the nerves are setting in and i don't even have my horse yet!
    what am i nervous about?  money for one thing...i called some stables
    and monthly cost ranged from $210 (no indoor) to $350 (with indoor)
    gulp!!  should i expect to pay around $300 to get a good barn with
    turnout and indoor?  and as iff that's not enough.  i just read
    this month's horseplay mag. and it had lots of scary things (for
    a new horseowner) to say about sicknesses and feed and things to
    watch out for...wow... i'll never remember everything!!  somebody
    help me calm down!  i love my horse but i'm terrified!
    
    nervous-in-nashua
    
    janet
    

    Hi Janet,
    
    I can more than understand your nervesness!  I got my 2 horses back
    in February of this year.  Sure, I had one when I was a kid but.....
    NEVER in my life do I remember being as scared as I was last Feb.
    Lucky for me I have several friends near by who understood my "basket
    case" condition.  Having some one you can call with those seemingly
    "stupid" questions can make a world of difference.  I wouldn't go
    so far as to say I am completely at ease yet but I have calmed down
    enough to start sleeping nights!  The most important thing I have
    learned from them is that some people own horses all of their life
    and seldom have any problems like the ones your now reading about.
    Use common sense, logic, and question, question, question everything.
    This notesfile will become your bible!  Everyone is just super helpful.
    
    Sorry I can't help you with the boarding situation.  I have mine
    in a private situation where I (we, my husband & I) take care of
    all the buying/feeding & related chores; paying only really for
    the use of the barn.  All other responsibilities are ours.
    I have heard of situations in NH where the board is around $200/mo
    with lots of trails near by - but no indoor ring.
    
    Good Luck! ENJOY!
    
    Cheryl 

    thanks cheryl -- i'm feeling better already.  i've had a lot of
    support from everyone i know.  including all of you in the notes
    file.
    
    thanks again for the calming influence.
    
    janet.

    Hi Janet,
    
    	I do not ride, nor do I own a horse. My daughter has been taking
    riding lessons for some time at Twin-Gate Farm in Londonderry,N.H.
    Obviously I'm no expert on facilities but I have seen quite a few.
    I feel that Twin-Gate is one of the nicer facilities I've seen.
    They have , I believe, a large amount of pasture, as well as an
    indoor arena. I inquired about their boarding fees and was surprised
    to find that they are currently at $250.00 per month. I don't have
    their phone number handy but if your interested let me know, I'd
    be glad to get their number for you.
    
    	DTN 264-3633
    	CSS::PARSONS
    

    thanks for the suggestion...however, i live in groton, ma. and i
    think londonderry is probably a fair hike from there.  however i
    will keep the name in mind in case i get desperate.  it's nice to
    know there are cheaper ones out there
    
    thanks
    janet

    I have been schooling my horse in Dressage since Jan '88' with the help
    of Sue Fisher. My problem is that I would like to show him, but I feel
    he is not consistant enough.  He is great on corners, circles, shoulder
    in and leg yeild - but on a straight away comes above the bit off and
    on. I have only shown at a Dressage show once and it was on an
    experienced horse.  I am primarily a Hunter person (and so is my
    horse). I am currently having a very sucessful show season and I
    don't want to jeapordize it by trying to do too much.  I plan to try to
    do Training level I & II at a show in two weeks.  How much should I be
    expecting, and is it possible to do both types of showing at the same 
    time?  (By the way my horse is a 5 yr old Appendix QH, I've had him for
    two years)
                           Thanks 

    
    
    You should be able to do training level dressage and hunter with
    no problem.  Just make sure YOU keep track of what event you are
    riding in.  I see lots of folks in the hunter ring "doing" dressage
    these days.  Needless to say, they don't place.
    
    I wouldn't worry about being on the bit for the level of showing
    you are going to do.  The requirement for training level is
    acceptance of the bit, not being on the bit.  Your horse needs to
    carry his head at a reasonable position and quietly accept your
    rein aids.  More important than head carriage (what most people
    mistake as "on the bit") is the way your horse moves.  If you can
    perform a consistent test with a slightly modified hunter frame,
    fine.  Better that than a constant battle in the ring.
    
    On showing, how important is the hunter stuff to you and what level
    are you at? If you've been doing hunter stuff for years and are
    comfortable, fine try a dressage show or two. If you are in the middle of
    learning to show hunters (sometimes even successfull folks are
    still learning or uncomfortable), I'd wait.  In the dressage ring
    you and your  horse will be learning a whole new set of showing skills.
    I prefer that my students not attempt to learn both skills at the
    same time.  That's not to say that they don't learn to jump, only
    that they concentrate on one showing discipline.
    
    I think I'd wait till the hunter shows are over.  There will probably
    be a few unrecognised dressage shows near you in the winter.  Use
    those to accustom you and your horse to the whole experience and
    then take him to recognized shows in the spring.
    
Good luck,
    Maureen

    Thanks for your reply Maureen.  I have entered the show I was
    contemplating about.  I will be doing Training I & III.  I have
    been riding Hunters for about ten years.  I work with a trainer for 
    Huntseat and one for Dressage.  I had my lesson yesterday and all
    seems well.  Although I now have my self wondering if I may have to
    make a choice between the two eventually.  I seem to be on a roller
    coaster these days.  I maybe selling the horse next spring, depending
    on how the fall goes.  I don't foresee that he is going to be the
    horse I had hoped for.  You know how that goes, you always want more
    and better.  Sometimes I think I am nuts???!!!  Well I will let you
    know how we do. 
    
                             Thanks

	If and when we finally try our first Training level test, I will be
faced with the task of pulling Jazz's tail to make it look neater and more
presentable.  I have tried pulling it after exercise when the skin is warm 
- he is not happy or cooperative about it, to say the least.  Is there some
way of doing this without trauma (mine and his)?  Doe's anyone shave the sides
of the tail for competition?  If so, how has it worked out?  Should I just 
braid it?  

	What kind of white tape is used when braiding the mane?  How do you 
get the tape out after?  How long should the clipped area behind the poll be?  

	Another dressage-regulation type question:  I have seen bit inspections
at a show and was wondering if using a snaffle with copper inlays could result
in a disqualification?  

Thanks!

BTW: if you ever get an error while adding a topic or reply, you might leave
the note as "being written" even though it says not entered.  Delete your
note/reply and try again...  I just had an error due to network failure to
DELNI.

>	If and when we finally try our first Training level test, I will be
>faced with the task of pulling Jazz's tail to make it look neater and more
>presentable.  I have tried pulling it after exercise when the skin is warm 
>- he is not happy or cooperative about it, to say the least.  Is there some
>way of doing this without trauma (mine and his)?  Doe's anyone shave the sides
>of the tail for competition?  If so, how has it worked out?  Should I just 
>braid it?  

	 When you pull the mane, be sure you do it only a few hairs at a
     time  and  that  you do it quickly.  The more time the horse has to
     think about it while you pull, the worse it will be.  If your horse
     has  a  thick  mane but it's not very long, then resign yourself to
     fat  braids.   If  it's a long but thin mane, you might try using a
     razor  on  the  ends  (a  few at a time) to try to just shorten the
     mane,  rather  than  thin  it also.  If your horse is really a boor
     about  having  his  mane played with, you may need to twitch him or
     have  a  helper  hold  him (with chain shank) while you pull.  Play
     with  his  mane all the time while you are grooming.  Try pulling a
     little  bit  while  you're  riding (I once did all but 6") during a
     lesson.  If you're on top of the horse, it's harder for them to get
     away  from  you,  and  you can easily stop and do something else to
     distract them.

	 What you  *don't*  want  to  do,  though,  is  have  your horse
     associate  having  his  mane played with with unpleasantness.  That
     will only make it harder to braid!

	 If you  want  the  look of the pulled tail, personally, I would
     recommend  actually  pulling it, rather than taking the clippers to
     it.   Pulling  tales a little longer, but doesn't look quite so bad
     as  it  grows  back  in.   Ont  thing  to  be sure of - once you do
     something  to the top of the tail, it takes quite a while to repair
     the  'damage'  if  you  don't  like  it - like over the winter.  If
     you're going to your first show, why not just leave the tail alone,
     other  than  making  sure  it's  clean and tangle free.  I wouldn't
     braid  it - that just isn't 'done' any more.  I figure that when my
     horse  starts  doing  first  level  work,  I will probably consider
     pulling his tail.  Until then, he goes au natural.



>	What kind of white tape is used when braiding the mane?  How do you 
>get the tape out after?  How long should the clipped area behind the poll be?  

	 You don't have to use white tape.  Some people do.  There are a
     lot  who  don't.   If  you  have  a horse who has a really noce and
     correct  neck and head carriage, go ahead.  Otherwise, I would just
     braid  with  yarn.   If you use yarn, you don't have to worry about
     taking the tape off ;-) If you do use tape, I believe it's just 1/2
     inch adhesive tape.

	 I usually  trim  the bridle path to be about twice the width of
     the bridle's crownpiece.


>	Another dressage-regulation type question:  I have seen bit inspections
>Aat a show and was wondering if using a snaffle with copper inlays could result
>in a disqualification?  


	No.


	    Kathy

	 P.S.  If  your  horse is located in the greater Maynard area, I
     will  volunteer  to  help get you started.  This is not the type of
     thing  you  want  to start the night before your first show.  (It's
     also more fun to ride a horse that looks neat and tidy.)

Thanks for the suggestions Kathy.  His mane is very thin so I won't need
to pull much.  It's a good idea if I practice before the big day just to
learn how to do it - or he might end up in a mess.  Just how do people
get all these details in order before a show?  I'm gonna have to start a
week in advance...  

    janice--
    
    just read your note and it brought back great memories of my first
    dressage show this past may.  i had people helping and let me tell
    you i couldn't have survived alone!  i have a little advice...leave
    lots of extra time to braid .. my horse, higgins, was a pain, shaking
    his head and what-not.  i agree with kathy it's unnecessary to use
    tape especially for training level.  also because if it isn't done
    really well it looks worse than a yarn job not done well...in other
    words it will accentuate every tiny flaw.  i braided higgins the
    night before and he rubbed overnight.  so i showed him with one
    braid missing.  he actually has a hole in his mane!  oh well.  we
    still got 5th in T1 and 5th and first level test 1.  good luck and
    just have fun...the best advice i got was from a close friend who
    said, "remember the judge is there for you not the other way around!"
     just have a good time!  it's a blast!!
    
    ************
    to all dressage noters:
    
    i have to go back to real life...i begin teaching next week.  it's
    been great summer working at dec and i hope to do it again next
    year!  (if not work part-time during the year) 
    thank you all for your support and advice.  higgins is coming out
    sooner than i expected...maybe even within the next 2 weeks.  i
    can't wait.  all your advice has prepared me and made me not quite
    so nervous.  
    
    thanks again
    byebyebye
    janet.

	I've just started dressage lessons so I'm no pro but my
       instructor has had me roach Miss Taffy's mane cause it was a
       double mane and she was violent about having it pulled. It's
       still a bit shaggy but should improve as we shape it. Her own
       horse Robbie's Angel just won champion 1st level in the Rocky
       Mountain Dressage Society show and his mane is roached also.

       By roached what I mean is it looks like those pictures you see
       carved in Greek temples. I've also heard it called a trojan mane.
       It really looks nice on a horse with a nice (not too broad) neck.
       She also has the shaved tail on Robbie which looks quite nice but
       it hasn't started growing out yet so I don't kow what it will
       look like when that happens.
       
       So far I'm really enjoying my lessons. I hope to start some
       low-level eventing next year if we progress well with the
       dressage. liesl

    Having moved cross country, I haven't had a chance to read these
    notes in quite a while.  I've been showing Ellie in 2nd level and
    do nothing to her tail other than brush it.  You won't get any points
    taken off because you don't pull your horse's tail.  I've heard
    that braiding restricts tail movement and that's why people don't
    do it for dressage (rumor? fact?  I don't know!).
    
    I haven't pulled Ellie's mane either.  I do thin it by pulling,
    but I haven't made it really short.  I make long braids and then
    sew them into the base of the braid two or three down the mane to
    get a scallopped affect.  I usually use yarn about the same color
    as her mane.  I've also done a French braid with her.
    
    Re: -1  I have heard of roached manes, but it meant that the entire
    mane was shaved off except for a bit at the end by the withers and
    the forelock.  I don't think this is what you meant.  Can you describe
    it any more?
    
    						Jan

       The way the western folks do it a roached mane is cut very short.
       The way my trainer does her horse and Taffy the mane is very
       short at the poll and the withers but then arches up to about two
       inches at the crest (I think that's what it's called) of the
       neck. It sort of excentuates the curve of her neck when she's in
       a frame. Now that it's grown a bit and been trimed neatly it
       looks very nice. Claudia (my trainer) tells me she picked this up
       from watching shows in California. 

       Just as an aside, my trainer rode Taffy a bit during my lesson
       this week and she looked so good! I'm starting to believe we can
       actually do this stuff. She takes her canter leads now and we're
       starting to learn side passes. liesl

I am thinking about attending the NEDA annual meeting next Saturday
(Oct. 29). I'm not a member of NEDA.  Actually, I've forgotten exactly
why I wanted to go because I don't remember where I read about it --
therefore, I can't review the activities!  Seems like there were going
to be demonstrations. 

Is anyone else out there going?  (Can anyone refresh my memory?)

Michelle Doty

Yes, we *think* we're going to the NEDA Gala this Saturday.   The
meeting goes from 3:30 - 4:00.   Then it's cocktail hour (for
2 hours), then I believe the demonstrations run between 6:30-9:30.
Tickets are 15.00 and can be bought when you get there.

It's at the Hamilton Equestrian Center (across the street from Flying
Horse Farm -- where the NEDA fall show was held).   

I'm somewhat hesitant to go since I was just there 2 weekends ago
as part of the Children's Hospital Benefit.   We were demonstrating
a dressage Quadrille ride in their evening plan.   Unfortunately it was 
poorly organized and there were few spectators.   We were told that thousands
of people had already bought tickets and that Channel 4 TV would be
filming the entire event.   Promises, promises!  

    Heres a question to start up this file again. My dressage teacher
    said that any trained horse should accept the whip and spurs as
    an extension of the aids. My quarter horse that I use for my lessons
    has no problem with these, in fact I hardly need them at all. But
    the walking horse I got resently takes exception to either one by
    bucking. She spends a lot of time avoiding the bit by backing up
    so I need to find someway to encourge her forward without getting
    bucked off. Any ideas??
    
    Help,
    Sandy
    

    Has you horse ever been ridden with a whip and spurs before?  If
    not, then she probably doesn't know what you want.  If she has,
    then maybe she wasn't trained to respond properly.
    
    You can get her used to the whip at least from the ground.  If she's
    afraid of it, stroke her with it until she isn't afraid any more
    (may take several lessons).  Then get her used to responding to
    moving forward when you tap her with it.  There are probably several
    books that can help you with this.  One that I know of that does
    an especially good job is the one written by Linda Tellington-Jones.
    It's called "(An Introduction to) The Tellington-Jones Equine Awareness 
    Method" (don't know whether the first part of the title is used
    all the time).  If you find soneone who's been to one of her clinics,
    they can probably give you a lot of pointers.
    
    Once you horse is used to the whip, then you can use it to tap behind
    your heels to get her used the idea of spurs.
    
    Other thoughts:  the quarter horse you use for lessons is probably
    used to different people using spurs and whips and may not be very
    sensitive to them, but the same use of these aids on your horse
    may be severe punishment to her.  She may need a lot less of these
    aids.  
    
    Also if she is avoiding the bit, you might want to check if she'll
    respond better to a different kind of bit.  Maybe the one you are
    using is too severe for her or you have a heavier hand than she is 
    used to.  Any avoidance of a horse should always make you think 
    about what you could be doing to cause it (my dressage teacher says 
    it's always the rider's fault, never the horse's fault - I generally 
    believe that, but I know that my horses can be naughty at times,
    mostly when they want to run).
    
    I agree with you teacher that any trained horse should accept these
    aids - but I would qualify that by saying the horse should have
    years and years of training and probably in dressage.  I find that
    it takes a lot more training than people usually think to have a
    well trained horse.
    
    Hope all this helps you.
    
    						Jan
    
    

    My quarter horse is not a school horse she is ridden only by me.
    The walker mare came from Michigan and I have no history on her.
    I am using a rubber covered snaffle on her so it can't be the bit.She
    doesn't have a problem with the whip on the ground. I have been
    using the TEAM method on her in the month that I have had her she
    quite enjoys the streching exercises. She only resents the whip
    when it is used to correct her. She will back up when asked to go
    forward even with no contact on the reins yet on the ground she
    goes just fine on the lunge line. I am starting to wonder if a rider
    abused her so she has a bad association with being ridden and whips.
    She will not stand still for mounting if you have one in your hand.
    Her sides seem pretty sensitive so that could explain the resentment
    of spurs.
    
    Maybe time will tell,
    Sandy
    

    How is the walker in a more relaxed riding situation, like trails?
    Is she *always* resistant to moving forward?  If you can find an
    environment or riding situation that she seems to be more manageable
    in it might help...  Even if you put a small, quiet rider on her
    and lead her (with no aids from the rider).  
    
    How is her reaction to your 'move forward' aids when you do not
    have either whip or spurs?
    
    And, are you absolutely sure she is sound?  Does she have any back
    or other problems?  Is she used to a rider of your weight class?
    
    Just some ideas - 
	Dana
    

    Hi Sandy,
    
    I have had a similar problem with my young gelding.  I would ask him
    to move forward with my leg and if he didn't respond he would get a
    tap with the whip, in return he would show his disapproval by kicking
    out or bucking.  If he kicked out or bucked I would tap him again and
    encourage him forward (be careful not to ask for forward and restrict
    at the same time - that creates a buck, be sure to give with your hands
    and allow her to go forward) if he still continues his antics then I
    continue to tap and push him forward until he stops.  He now has no
    problem excepting the whip.  Although when he is feeling high and
    mighty he will still sometimes test me.
    
    As you might suspect he responded the same way when I used spurs.
    I used the same method to school him to the spurs.  Fortunately 
    the spurs are only necessary when he needs a lesson in respecting
    my leg.  I don't use them daily or to show at this point in his
    dressage training. Although I too believe that both are necessary
    tools and should be accepted.  Good luck and keep at it.  
    
                                              Wendy

    Summer (the walker) trail rides ok as long as there is another horse
    to follow. Out in front she starts her antics again unless we are
    headed home. I think I am going to change my mindset and forget
    that she is 8 yrs old and SHOULD be trained. Instead I will pretend
    she is a 3 yr old and forget the whip and spurs until she understands
    legs and hands better. It mostly means she will get ridden on the
    farm instead of in the park so I don't get killed from her backing
    into a car trying to cross the roads on the way to the park. Boring
    but safer.
    
    Thanks for the ideas keep them coming,
    Sandy
    

    Contrary to what a lot of people think, snaffle bits are *not* the
    mildest.  When you use both reins the bit creates a kind of nutcracker
    affect on the horse's mouth.  A straight bit (no joint in the middle)
    is much milder.  Another milder bit is a Dr. Bristol (I think it's
    also called a French snaffle) which has two joints and a flat piece
    in the middle that lies on the horse's tongue (also good for horses
    that get their tongue over the bit.
    
    I think your idea about treating the horse as a green horse is good.
    The age of the horse doesn't determine how well it's trained.  I'm
    currently riding a green 16 year old!
    
    						Jan

    Thanks Jan and Wendy! I will try to find a Dr. Bristel in her size.
    unfortunately that's a 4 1/2 or 4 3/4 I have had trouble finding
    much selection that small. Her mouth really is that narrow though.
    I took her out this past weekend and she did better although I did
    have to dismount and drag her past a neighboring farm whos horses
    she felt we should visit. I think she is just testing me to see
    what she can get away with cause when she forgets to fight me she
    responds quite easily. The other thing that is interesting about
    her is she is not locked into only the running walk, she still trots
    quite nicely on the lunge. I think I am going to see if I can develop
    both gaits so I can use her for dressage. Walkers naturally overstep
    hind over front by a great amount. Unfortunately her trot is terrible
    to ride with.
    
    Miles to go,
    
    Sandy
    

    Re .337
    
    A French-Link is not the same as a Dr Bristol's bit.  Whilst
    they both have a double joint, the Dr Bristol has a serve action.
    The centre section of the French link lies flat, in line with the
    tongue, whilst the Dr Bristol's lies perpendicular (edge on).
    I'm sure there has been a discussion (maybe with diagrams) else-
    where in this conference.  Maybe someone with more time can give
    you some pointers.
    If my memory has failed, maybe some kind soul could explain the
    differences in action of these two bits.
    
    Please be sure that you want a severe bit before going out and
    getting a Dr Bristols.  
    
    Could you borrow a bit from a friend, and try it out on your horse
    before committing yourself ?
    
    I would offer you mine, which is a 4� inch French-link, but there
    is a very wide expanse of water between us. 
    
    Good luck  
    
    Judy

    I agree with the last reply about the Dr. Bristol bit.  I
    had a problem with my racehorse this year, because I think
    at times he forgot he had a bit in his mouth at all, and 
    was in no rush to stop.  Several people at the track told
    me to try a Dr. Bristol because it was a very severe bit,
    and he should stop with it.  I never ended up using it
    though because I didn't want to invest in one, and couldn't
    find one to borrow, but if I have the same problem next
    year, I'll get one for sure.

    Looks like I will stick with the rubber coated snaffle, she seems
    to like it anyway.
    
    Thanks,
    Sandy
    

    I have a Dr. Bristol and the center piece lies flat on my horse's
    tongue.  I ordered it from a catalog that advertised it as a Dr.
    Bristol.  I've also seen the same style bit labelled as a French
    link, and thought they were both the same.  I have never seen a
    double jointed snaffle where the center piece lies perpendicular
    to the horse's tongue.  I am curious to know where you have seen
    bits like this.  I always thought these were two names for the same
    type of bit.
    
    						Jan
    

    Here's an update on Summer. It turns out she's not as green as she
    was acting, it was just a test to see what I would do. It appears
    to me she had her previous owners intimidated. She now 3 weeks later
    has no problem with spurs or whip but she has also realised I am
    not going to abuse her with them. The only problem I am having now
    is she doesn't like to behave when visiting other farms. Can a horse
    always be in season? That what she acts like in the vicinty of any
    horse that's not a mare with the exception of my pony gelding, she
    just trys to kick him every chance she gets. It looks like we can't
    visit until she accepts all the rules. It's pretty embarassing when
    your mare backs her rear end up to a fence and won't move. I have
    been unable to stop her except by dismounting an dragging her away
    and even this has taken as long as 1/2 hour. I thought the cycle
    only lasted 3 days yet this mare acts like this every weekend. Any
    ideas?
    
    Sandy_whose_mare_loves_the_boys
    

       My sister's pinto had that problem (continuous heat) and it
       turned out to be an ovarian cyst. It was removed and she was fine
       afterwards. liesl

    Another question for you dressage people! Has anyone out there
    sucessfully trained a 5 gaited horse for dressage? My Tenn. Walker
    has 5 distinct gaits, normal walk, flat walk with head nodding,
    running walk, trot and canter. I still have difficulty getting any
    particular one she just mix and matches. A trot can be maintained
    by posting but when I sit she goes into the running walk. My dressage
    instructor says to stick with my Quarter horse for dressage and
    use the walker for hacking. Any thoughts? By the way the Walker
    is responding well to the aids, no bucking anymore.
    
    Regards,
    Sandy
    

Jonathan Ball is now accepting working students.  He is working out 
of Chilmark Farm in Jaffrey NH (previously known as Kilkenny Farm).

He is looking for a full time person to do barn work and/or barn
management in exchange for a daily lesson as well as student (and horse's)
room and board. Other arrangements can be worked out.

Contact Jonathan at (603)532-4197

Some background:  Jonathan is a successful dressage competitor/trainer.
He has trained to FEI levels and has earned his USDF Silver medal.

    Does anyone know of a book (or even a magazine article) that describes
    the dressage training level tests?  I've located a few books on
    dressage in book stores, but none of them included the tests.
    
    thanks,
    --Laura

    Laura,
    
       Most books don't carry the tests since they change every few
    years (I forget exactly what the interval is - around 3-5 years
    though).  If you send me your mail stop I can xerox them for you.
    You can get them from the USDF (US Dressage Federation) or the AHSA
    (American Horse Shows Assoc.), but you may have to be a member.
    Sometime local dressage clubs publish them, too.
    
    						Jan

    Hallllooooo out there :^)
    
    Since this topic has been pretty quiet for some time now, and I
    have this great need to find out about some dressage movements,
    I hope this will stimulate some talk!
    
    One day a friend of mine and I were having a chat and we started
    thhis great discussion about shoulder-in, haunches-in, renvers and
    travers. Now, I know what shoulder-in and haunches-in are and what
    the aids aer to do those. I am a little confused (and I didn't think
    I was until I started talking to people about it :^)) about what
    the differences are between these movements and the renvers and
    travers, if there are any.
    
    I have read in 1 dressage book that there are actually 3 moves,
    shoulder-in, haunches-in and renvers and that travers is just
    haunches-in; another book says they are all different and another
    book says the only shoulder-in and haunches-in are valid moves.
    I have also spoken with a few dressage people and their answers
    are different too...
    
    So, just to quell my curiousity, anybody know what these move(s)
    actually are, how they are performed, what the aids are, etc.?
    
    Thanks in advance!!!
    
    Linda (who is somewhat confused at this point :^))
    

    I asked my dressage instructor last night. She said:
	        renvers = haunches out
	        travers = haunches in
    
    so there are 3 moves: renvers, travers, and shoulder in.

	 For the  first  two,  the bend is in the direction the horse is
     going  (like  when doing the half-pass).  For shoulder in, the bend
     is opposite to the direction of travel, like in leg-yielding.


         For example: tracking to the right, 
            travers		the horse is bent around the right leg, 
				with the haunches to the inside (i.e. 
				following an inside track).

            shoulder in		the horse is bent around the right leg,
				with the shouldes to the inside (i.e.
				following an inside track).

	    renvers		the horse is bent around the left leg, 
				with the haunches to the outside (i.e.
				the horse travels on an inside track
				and the haunches are placed on the outside
				track).

    

    There's a fourth "unofficial" movement that seems to be in vogue
    here in the midwest - counter shoulder in.  The horse is bent
    opposite to the direction of travel with its nose to the wall and
    hind end  to the inside.  I'm not sure what it is intended to 
    accomplish but it is not correct to ride this movement in place
    of a true haunches in. It is very easy to ride though.
    
    Maureen
    

Is anyone going to NEDA this weekend?  If so, stop by and say hello! 
I'll be there both days...

What have all the dressage noters been up to lately?  How's the
training coming this year?   

I know its taken me a couple months just to get my horse back to
where I left off last fall.   Now my biggest problem is still the
downward transition from canter to trot.  She doesn't want to use
her back through the transition, and her head comes up and we FALL
into a trot.   Does anyone have some ideas for exercises that would
help her here?  I've been doing canter circles and decreasing the circle
to try to get her more under herself before the transition.  This seems
to have helped, but she still tends to 'chicken out' at the last second
and hollow her back through the transition.   I think she still needs
time to strengthen her back muscles since so she doesn't feel like she
has to 'cop out.'   Then again, I don't think she trusts that she
can do the transition with a round back, since she's never really done
it before.  I get her extra round beforehand, and then try to sneak her
down, but it NEVER fails, and for that split second, UP goes the head.

Thanks for your ideas!

Melinda

    I'm going on Sunday just to watch.  What classes are you going in
    and what does your horse look like so I can keep an eye out for
    you?
    
    Susan
    

Sunday I'll be in training level classes 19a, 19b, and 20b.  I'll
be riding a different horse in each.   Stop by the stall area and look
for the row of stalls labled Chilmark farm -- I'll be around there most
of the time.  My horse is a grey percheron cross and is easy to pick out
of a crowd since she's extremely UNrefined! 

Melinda

    Here's a training idea I've used successfully for canter/trot
    transitions -
    
    Use the long side of your arena (say the K-H side).  Start at a
    trot and do a 10 meter trot circle at K.  Pick up a canter as soon
    as you return to the track.  At H ask for a trot transition and
    do another 10 meter trot circle immediately.
    
    Try hard not to get unbalanced yourself and let your horse figure
    out how to cope with the exercise.  They can't just fall into the
    transition and make the circle comfortably, so they usually figure
    out about balanced transitions pretty quick.
    
    -maureen
    
    

    Melinda, how did you do at NEDA?
    
    Since the last time I wrote something for this file, I have moved
    back to Maryland, where "Gus" and I showed at 2nd level this spring.
    After making what I thought was tremendous progress over the winter,
    I continued to bring up the rear in all of my classes for the first
    two shows!  Needless to say, I was pretty upset, and thinking that
    maybe riding wasn't what I should be spending my spare doing, etc.
    Luckily, I have a very understanding trainer, and a very sympathetic
    husband, who combined to get me back on track.
    
    What was happening in the tests is that I would get comments about
    how obedient Gus was, doing all the movements correctly, at the
    right place, but that he was against the bit and tight in his back.
    What we discovered I was doing was in trying to keep him "loose",
    I was actually giving a little bit too much of my contact away.
     So he would lean for the support that he was used to having,
    especially on his transistions, where he isn't totally balanced
     and nothing would be there.  So up would go his head, down
    would go his back, and there went my 7 or 8 for a correct movement,
    to a 4 or 5 for a resistent movement.  I finally got it altogether
    for my last show, and ended up with a 1st and a 2nd!  What a feeling!
    
    I know I'm not explaining it the way my trainer would, but it is
    the mental picture that I keep in my mind while I am riding.  When
    he is good, I do give a little in my hands, but I really try to
    make sure I don't lean forward, or give so much that it is me changing
    the communication between us.
    
    The spring season is over for us now.  I probably won't show this
    summer; the heat and humidity are almost unbearable.  My goal is
    to work hard on this idea all summer so that I really have it
    confirmed, and then do 2nd level, tests 3 and 4 in the fall.  I
    have promised myself that I will not move up until I have some scores
    in the 60s at 2nd level!
    
    

	Maureen,

	Thank you for the training idea for canter/trot transitions.
	I'll give it a try.   In a way that's what I've been doing
	with her already, by turning her on a more decreased circle
	through the transition.  

	re .356

	Congratulations on your last show with your 1st and 2nd placing!
	Good luck at your shows this fall.   
	
	Things went pretty well at NEDA.  By the second day I felt as 
	though all 3 horses were going as well in their tests as they
	do at home and I can't expect better than that.   My horse
	didn't place but was 7th and 9th in her two big classes.  
	Another horse I was showing placed a third with a 65% score
	(even placing over my instructor riding the Pedlar cover horse
	'Korbel') so that was fun.

	Every year I see bigger classes and more competition.  From
	what I saw this weekend, there are some incredible up and coming
	young horses out there.  Scoring in the mid sixties doesn't
	necessarily place you at the top of your class anymore.  I saw
	some gorgeous horses scoring in the mid 70's in my classes!  
	I used to think that if you had consistent scores in the 60's
	then it was time to move up a level.   But with the competition
	the way it is, you may have to stay where you are a little longer.

	

    Hi everyone - I was visiting Marianne and skimming through the
    notes file to see what the topics were.  I just thought I'd
    offer a quick comment to the lateral movements topic.
    
    Re: note 10.351 - I think what Maureen is describing is 
    leg-yielding (like what is asked for in first level tests).
    Leg-yielding is what is usually taught to the horse before
    introducing haunches-in, shoulder-in, etc. because it is the
    easiest movement for the horse.
    
    Well, I hope everyone is doing well - I'm having fun with my
    4-yo Arabian gelding, it seems like I've been riding green
    horses forever lately!  He's coming along nicely - maybe I'll
    see some of you at some shows next year?
    
    Take Care -   Julie Najjar
    

    actually, I have been hearing alot of discussion lately that
    leg-yielding is not easy for the horse and that requires them to bend
    in a manner that is awkward. 
    
    I have talked with a few instrcutors who teach shoulder-in and
    half-pass first who say "when you need to leg yield in your first level
    test, reverse the bend." It seems that many people feel that
    leg-yielding is more apt to teach the horse how to fall out through the
    shoulder than to supple and come under more.
    
    Since I'm still working on my sitting trot, I think I have plenty of
    time to worry about all that ;^)
    
    Linda

    I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of "dressage" instructors
    don't really understand correct lateral movements. Describing the
    difference between legyield and halfpass as a change of bend is
    a good example.
    
    Leg yield should have minimal (if any) bend!  This movement and
    turn on the forehand are used to school lateral obedience. In the
    leg yield, you shouldn't be bending your horse any direction- he
    should be going foreward and a little sideways - crossing only the
    front legs and in response to a simple leg aid.  If you introduce 
    a significant bend one of two things will happen - the quarters 
    will trail too far behind, or both sets of legs will cross (as in 
    a halfpass).  This should be a very easy movement to perform.
   
    I train leg yield very early - just after basic walk/trot/canter.
    About the time my horse is ready to be on the bit consistently,
    I start shoulder-in, turn on the haunches,  and half pass.
    Shoulder-in and half pass are collected movements.  They don't
    belong in the repetoire of a first level horse.  It's the coordination
    is too difficult, not the bending.
    
    

    Hi Maureen,
    
    I thought that it was obvious that I was over-simplifying when I said
    to "change the bend." You are right about the amount of bend; what I've
    been hearing for the complaint about the leg yield is that it is not an
    easy movement and goes against the horse's natural tendency and teaches
    them little, whereas the half-pass properly helps the horse to balance
    over all 4 wheels while moving laterally.
    
    All I know is, my horse has a tough time with leg yield and an easier
    time with shoulder-in, half-pass and haunches-in.
    
    BTW, those that were against the leg yield were classical dressage
    theorists (not a recommmendation or agreement, just in passing ;^))
    
    Linda 
    
    p.s. how's the new stable going? hopefully well!
    
    
    

    You should see people around here do leg yield!  They actually
    do change the bend - and it looks wierd.  Poor horses.
    You're right about this not teaching the horse much and legyield/
    turn on the forehand do tend to put horse on the forehand, but they 
    are useful for schooling greenies (horses and riders - remember your 
    first half pass?)
    
    The barn is doing real well.  Especially the lesson program. 
    We just survived (barely) a dressage clininc and are having our
    first show on Aug 26.  We're also going to host the 1st annual
    wimpy chicken baby horse trials and weeny roast in late sept.
    And we've even sold a couple horses.
    
    -maureen
    

    re .362
    
    sounds like the new barn is doing great! How do you ever find time to
    do that and work?
    
    Who came over for your dressage clinic? I wish there were more clnics
    offered around my area. I just recently went to one with Jo Struby and
    we worked a bit on our dressage (such as it is ;^)) and it was great to
    have a different perspective!
    
    hope your horse trials and weeny roast go well; sounds like fun!
    
    Linda

    Sorry, but there aren't any official walk-trot tests.  In fact
    walk-trot isn't a sanctioned level. Usually each local dressage
    association uses their own tests.  It's your responsibility to
    know which test will be required at a given show.  If you ask
    the secretary, they will send you a copy of the tests to be used.
    
    Showing tip #34 - use a reader the first time you ride a test.
    Never know when the old memory will fail.
    
   

    I have a question maybe one of you Standardbred riders could answer.
    Is there anything you know of to help a horse trot that is inclined
    to pace? The horse I am working with can do both well so I get a
    50/50 chance of getting a trot when I ask for a change of gait.
    My biggest problem is realising when she gets it wrong because they
    feel nearly the same when sitting.
    Sandy
    

 	
	I heard a rumor a while back that Carol Lavell
	sold 'Gifted.'  I was surprised to hear it and
	wonder if anyone else knows whether its a fact,
	and if so, who bought him?   The horse truly
	lives up to his name.  I just wonder whether he'll
	continue to compete for the US or whether he was
	sold to someone outside the country.  


	

	Jazz and I went to our first dressage schooling show and managed some 
fairly decent scores and even a second place ribbon!  For anyone thinking of 
going to a schooling show - DO IT!   I was really pleased to find the judge 
very encouraging.   I highly recommend having the tests read when you first
start showing - I found that nerves can erase the brain.  

	Jazz and I would also like to thank Melinda Johnson (our instructor)
for all her help and expertise!  

Happy showing,

	Janice

    This doesn't have too much to do with dressage...
    
    Does anybody out there besides me ever attempt to half-halt their 
    car before traffic lights? I caught myself doing this on the way
    to work this morning.  

    
    ...and subconsciously trying to give leg around a tight corner....
    
    You're not alone!!
    
    Marianne
    

    
    I sometimes prepare to have my truck spook when plastic blows across 
    the road.
    

    
    	.372 - I love it!! I caught myself doing this just the 
    	       other day....
    

    Re 370 et seq.
    
    Since dressage does mean training, how many riders/drivers teach their
    horse to halt and stand when they come to an intersection, a trail or
    driveway coming out on to a road, etc:?  I know dressage horses rarely
    go into the outdoors but this is a little bit of safety training
    everybody could adopt.

    
    From my past two years training for long distance riding, Jasper
    has learned to come down to a walk at the sight of any paved road,
    stop and wait for my cue to cross. He also knows, we walk on pavement
    and never trot. When we get to the dirt on the other side, he starts 
    trotting, without a cue. I may as well just bring a book to read. 
    Talk about automated.
     

    I believe dressage horses belong outside - it does their minds
    so much good.  But then again, mine also learn to jump.
    
    Any horse ridden on/near the road should learn to stop at intersections
    and road crossings.  It's just plain dangerous to not teach them
    this.
    
    -maureen

This probably sounds nit picky, but generally you don't want a dressage
horse to do something like stopping 'automatically' without aids.  I
realize its valuable for trail riding, but I would prefer to be the one
to see the intersection, and make the decision myself (and then give the
aids).  

    re .377
    
    The reason it's a good idea to have a horse halt "automatically" is
    because there are situations you will want this to happen, when you are
    unable to give any "aids". For example, more than once I have come
    across a loose horse running out on to a busy highway. They did not
    stop, but fortunately I could. It doesn't matter what equestrian
    discipline you follow, there are some things you can train your horse
    to do which will make your activity safer. 

 I didn't understand your example about the loose horse 
 running on the highway.   Do you mean that if the loose horse
 was trained to stop it would have done so by itself?  I'm
 sure I must have misunderstood.   

 We're probably both misunderstanding each other.   I think a horse
 should be trained so it 'will stop on command' no matter where it
 may be.    I meant to share the general information that its not
 part of a dressage horse's training to perform a transition on
 auto-pilot.   But that's strictly 'dressage arena' training.  There's
 no reason why a dressage horse can't be trained to learn other things
 outside of 'text-book' dressage training -- which I think was your original
 point.

    I trail ride quite a lot, and I have found that the best training
    I can do is out on the trail. Going up and down hills builds the
    muscles that lead to great work in the ring. Trail riding can teach
    the horse to always be working with you inspite of distractions.
    As for stopping at road crossings, if you always stop the horse
    will learn to stop anything repeated will be memorised. I like to
    see horses training to whoa! on voice command so if they get loose
    anyone can get them to stop. The other thing I insist that my horses
    do is to go straight across the road even though they try to go
    on an angle towards whichever way we normally go. Sometimes I will
    head the other direction just to make sure they are paying attention!
    Trail riding also encourages the rider to use "soft eyes" because
    of the scenery.
    My 2 cents,
    Sandy
    

	
	It was my first time to Devon, all last week, and what a spectacular
        time it was!   I'd never traveled 350 miles to a horse show before,
        for starters.  We arrived Tuesday afternoon to an empty fairground. 
        For some reason I was disappointed that it was a fairground at all, 
        since I'd had some fairy tale idea that it was on some magnificent
        estate with rolling pastures.  

	As it turned out, by Wednesday the place was full of excitement.
	I never heard so many whinnying youngsters in my life.  I tried
        making a phone call from the fairgrounds and it was hard to
 	hear over the commotion.

	We brought 2 'youngsters' for the breed show - Balsa and Korbel.
        Balsa was the star winning her under saddle class, and 2nd in 
	her in-hand class.   Korbel did very well also, winning 2nd and 8th 
        in his under saddle classes. We were proud to think that these horses
	competed well against the top dressage breeding stock in the country.

	We enjoyed watching Gunnar Oostergaard win his Grand Prix class
	with Lendon Gray taking 2nd place.  Another highlight was a touching 
	retirement ceremony for Jessica Ranhoussen's lovely mount 'Orpheus'. 

        The facility is ideal for evening events, with excellent lighting,
        plenty of grandstands and excellent footing. With 5 days of showing,
        and 2 evenings of spectator events, plus tons of booths filled with 
        dressage accessories for sale, any dressage enthusiast would be in 
	seventh heaven!   (yes, me included!)

	Melinda
	

Well, since this note has been quiet for awhile, I thought I'd try to start
up some discussion....

I am attempting to correct some of my horrible riding habits and am interested
in finding out from all of you who your instructor is, and what you think their
good points are (also, maybe the location?) 

I am in MA and southern NH area and would like to maybe take some lessons from
someone who would work on my position.. I think I'd prefer to work on someone
else's horse to start with and then maybe move on to my own...

So, who do you ride with? And what to do really like about them? Also, any
special recommendations?

Thanks in advance!

Linda

    To be honest, I haven't found what I would classify as a very good
    dressage instructor since I started riding again 10 years ago.
    
    My first instructor, some 20 years ago (yaaaaiiiihhhhh!) was Lockie 
    Richards (founder and coach of the New Zealand 3-day team).  We spent 
    a good year working on position & seat, with a lot of work without 
    stirrups, before moving on to learning the movements.  My 2nd year with
    Lockie was spent at the American Dressage Institute, where I was
    fortunate to learn the movements on 2 grand prix horses (one, Gold Lack,
    is on the cover of Lockie's book!  I also rode Madiera and one or two
    other horses that appear in it.)
    
    I have found that the teachers I've worked with since moving to Mass.
    frequently themselves do not have really correct positions or a really
    good grounding in theory.  Worse yet, most of them spend zero time
    working on these fundamentals, instead concentrating on getting into
    the movements and competition first.
    
    There are, of course, exceptions, with some teachers demonstrating very
    correct riding.  But a truly good teacher (i.e., someone who
    understands it, explains it & starts at the beginning?)--I'm still
    looking.  I'd be very interested in finding a really good one too!
                                  

re 384:   

      I have to agree that good dressage instructors are few and
      far between.  Its certaintly become something that the USDF
      has tried to place more emphasis on with their instructors
      clinics, judging seminars, etc.   

      I must agree with you also, how important it is to be able to
      ride good school horses.  Just being a passenger (ie rider
      not trainer) is hard enough in itself!   You were fortunate
      to have ridden Lockies Grand Prix horse and Madeira (who I
      knew also - I've also taken instruction from Lockie).

      I ride with Mary Howard Canfield and have been for 2 1/2 years.
      She has three school horses -- one for longing, one schooled
      to 4rth level, and another schooling Grand Prix.  I've learned
      so much just from riding her school horses.  
	
      I'm very impressed with Mary since not only has she trained     
      about a half dozen horses to FEI levels but she was short listed
      for the Olympics with one of her self-trained horses last year. 
      Her position, by the way, is absolutely spotless!  

      Other instructors who I hold the highest respect for would be Michael
      Poulin (who Mary studied with), and Gunnar Oostergaard.  Gunnar
      may be moving to New England soon to Chester Vt.  
     



	

    Not to divert the discussion, but has anyone out there had to learn
    to ride dressage with a handicap.  For me the correct seat was
    once possible, but since I had a couple vertebrae fused, it's just
    not possible anymore.  
    
    It's amazing what the horses learn to accomodate - Kenora just started 
    tempi changes (correct, no less) with me riding in a very light seat.  
    The only hard part is finding an instructor that is flexible enough
    to cope with me.
    
    -maureen
    
    
    

    Re: .382
    
    When I lived in NH I rode with Dr. Van Schaik, who is a stickler for
    position and teaches classical dressage (as opposed to competition
    dressage).  He no longer has his school in VT, but does do clinics.  I
    may be able to find out where he's doing clinics, but I'm not in
    constant contact with a lot of the people he taught since I moved away
    over a year ago.  Another good person for position is Sheila McLevedge
    who used to work for Dr. Van Schaik.  Send me mail and I can tell you
    how to contact her.
    
    I've also heard good things about Mary Howard Canfield, although I
    haven't seen her ride.
    
    						Jan

    I, myself have too many handicaps to mention.  However, in March
    there will be a course offered entitled "Riding Through Winter."
    Interestingly it addresses many issues and riders (at least last
    season came from North Shore (Mass), South Shore (Mass), NH and even
    Martha's Vineyard.) Riders attending were comprised of novice
    and above, and instructors as well.  If you would like more
    information, let me know and I'll get you more.
    
    The course is held inside. (Not a mounted class).  The course is
    taught by Beth Jenkins.
    

                I would also recommend Mary Howard Canfield.  My wife
    has recently started taking lessons from her and is very pleased.
    She likes her style of instruction and she is very easy to get
    along with.  Good luck with whom ever you choose!
    
                 Bob

    
    I would like to ask a what may seem like a very simple
    question of all the experts out there.  How do you ask
    for the half-halt?  My little guy is very new to any
    type of dressage movements (we've started some bending)
    and can get a little strong.  I've never had anyone give
    me a complete explaination of the half-halt. 
    
    My critter is (only) sixteen, yet he seems to like to 
    learn new things.  We just started jumping last year and 
    he enjoys that.  I am looking forward to doing very low
    level eventing with him.  We'll be attending the Hunter
    Pace put on by DEC employee Bob Friend and the Middlesex
    county 4-H.  I think that a better understanding of both
    the Half-halt and other dressage movements will only in-
    crease our effectiveness as a team.  
    
    Any replys will be great (I'm so impressed with the skill
    of so many of you out there).  Thanks in advance.
    
    **Marti**
    

    I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.  I use
    the same aids as for a full halt, only less.  Close the legs and gently
    drive the horse into a restraining hand.  If the horse is getting
    strong or is a bit off balance (on the forehand) than I may follow the
    driving aid with a tweak on the outside rein.  As usual, timing is
    everything.  I'm not sure I can describe exactly when I give the aid, I
    just do it by feel.  You horse will need to have a least 1 hind leg
    grounded, since what you are actually asking him to do is push off a
    bit harder to go more forward, but restraining him so he doesn't go
    faster.
    
    Mary

    Hi Marti,
    
    I am no expert on half-halts, I only know that they work on both
    my horses when I gently close my legs and "tighten" my seat, keeping
    my upper body quiet, and close my fingers on the reins. I can feel
    how much to do this, it is hard to explain, and I'm sure someone
    in here who teaches could put it into words better than I (I'd make
    a terrible instructor, I don't articulate well enough). I can feel
    the horse gather the hind end underneath herself, and there is a
    moment of what I can only think to call suspension, then I feel
    more collection and a slower pace. Naturally the instant I feel
    results I let up on the aids...my mare tends to like to get forward
    again after a few strides (she can be very aggressive at times),
    but my TB gelding settles right into the new pace and stays put,
    which I believe is what they are supposed to do..will someone
    explain that to my mare?? :-)
    
    Anyway, Marti, I wanted to let you know that I cannot write you
    via vax mail, when I try I keep getting a strange message about
    an infinite forwarding loop?? I don't know much about the system,
    but a friend said that something could be wrong in your SET/FORWARD??
    Thought I'd let you know...
    
    Linda
    

    Thanks for the input folks.  I'm going to start working
    on that Half halt and see how my critter responds.  I
    usually just straighten up in my seat and resist his 
    forward motion with my hands.  I'll try the more subtle 
    approach.
    
    Linda, I reset my forward on VAX mail so give it a try
    again (problem due to operator error - ME!).
    
    **Marti**
    

As one of the previous replies mentioned, half-halts are more or less 
effective depending on the timing... Also, very important to mention, that a 
half-halt is not a sustained action. It isn't intended to be held for more than 
stride, if that. Basically you want to (re)balance your horse over his hind end
so that he can carry himself proprely.

Good luck!

Has anyone heard about the auction in Stratham NH at the Meadowlark (?)
Dressage Show?   Its listed in the Omnibus, and I'm thinking about
taking two sale horses to it, but I'm worried no prospective buyers
will be there.

The sale horse class at Devon was a joke -- no one was there!!  It
was a waste of time and money.

Melinda

	Looking for a Horse Professional experienced in showing 
	horses "on the line" -- (Specifically on the Triangle) -- 
	for help in preparing Horse & Handler for National Horse 
	Show taking place in the beginning of July.

    Could someone please explain the class routine for a "dressage
    suitability in hand" class (the kind with a triangle).  I seem to
    be in the embarrassing position of having to show a horse for someone
    and haven't the faintest idea of what I'm supposed to do! :>)
    

    re .398
    
    There is an equalateral triangle set with cones between 70 and 90 
    feet. Assuming you face the triangle from the judging position (at
    one of the pointa of the figure) there is a set of cones half way 
    down each side.
    
    The routine is to present the horse to the judge in an open stance,
    then when instructed by the judge, walk the inner triangle then
    trot the outer triangle.
    
    
                           ---------->------------
    	                   \ +                 + /
                            \                   /
                             ^                 v
                              \------->-------/
                               \+           +/
                                \           / 
                                 \         /
                                  \       /     
                                   \     /
                                    \ + /
                                     \ /
    

    What we are looking for in .397 is someone who has had experience
    and can coach on setting up and best speed, best head carriage, etc.
    
    
    Good Luck
    
    PS. This pattern is in accordance with the Appaloosa Horse Club
    but since Dressage judges are judging, I would assume it is
    standard.    
        

I've got to brag just a bit.  My trakehner (known around the barn as
"Moose Lips") finally got his act together and won a 2nd level class!
61% I'll have you know- in test #3.  And this from a horse who was too 
lazy to canter last year.
    
    'Course he was particularly naughty in the next test.  My favorite
    part was the halt/rear transition at X.  I guess that at least proves
    he had his butt underneath him. :>)   I love him anyway.
    
-maureen

    re:-1
    Maybe he wants to do "airs above the ground" like a Lippizon!8^)

    
    Sounds like he is ready to move UP  (literally)!

    Hi everyone,
    
    	I know that no one has replied to this file in quite sometime, so
    I thought I'd ask a question and get the ball rolling again.  I have
    started to use draw reins on my critter.  I wanted to know what type 
    of exercises others would suggest for the best results.  I have mostly
    just been working on a 20 meter circle with them.  My critter gets a 
    little resistant at first.  He can also be a bit heavy on the forehand.
    I have found that I need to apply a lot of outside leg to keep him a
    bit more rounded on the circle.  I also need to keep an extremely
    supple left rein when circling to the right (he really leans on me in
    that direction).  
    
    	Overall, I do see some difference in his response to the bit and 
    my hands after a session of draw reins.  I would love any pointers or
    helpful hints on getting the most from this training aid.
    
    	Thanks in advance.  Marti

    
    
    	Hi Marti-
    
    	I really don't know too much about Draw Reins but my sister
    	uses them on her appy and *loves* them.  I too have the same
    	problem with you, Pru has all his *power* up front.  What
    	I did was rather then use draw reins I started to teach him
    	to bend and relax.  I started out fisrt at a halt and turned
    	his head to the left towards my foot but putting enough tension
    	on the right rein so that he doesn't turn in.  He was a bit
    	stiff at the beginning but I only turned him until he gave me
    	a small result of what I was asking and then I would loosen up on 
    	right rein and praise him.  Then I would switch to the other side 
    	doing the same thing all over.
    
    	When he mastered bending at the halt I tried it at the walk
    	and then the trot.  Remember even at the halt to use your back
    	to help turn him, this is your strongest muscle.  Now when I
    	am walking around or troting all I have do is slip my outside
    	leg back slighty and use my back to turn him with out ever touching
    	the reins for assistance.  Teaching him to bend made him relax
    	more and which made him more prone to pay attention to my legs
    	instead of relying on the bit.  Another method that helps you
    	asthe rider is try and think of your as being pieces of paper
    	instead of leather and that too will help you use your back
    	and legs to help your beastie to turn.  This takes alot of time and
    	patience  but it is well worth the result.  We are still polishing
    	up on the trot and next we try the canter... :-) 
    
   
    	Hope this helps!
    
    	See you at your barn on the 11th!  (Pru and I are moving in.)
    	
	Zina

    Draw reins are a very powerful tool. I personally don't have good
    enough hands to even think about using them. My own horse was very
    strung out and heavy up front and the solution was a flash noseband
    to help keep the bit in the right place, and learning to use my legs
    to lift her on to the bit. I also work her on a lunge line with a
    side rein on the off side and the line on the near side. I keep asking
    for flexion with the line and use the whip as a pointer to encourage
    her from behind, this has helped her find her own balance without a
    rider. She gets lighter in my hands every week. The other caution my
    instructor gave me, was only ask for flexion for a few minutes at a
    time, building up gradually. This would probably be the best point to
    ponder with draw reins, because they do not give instantly when the
    horse lowers his head, plus I think it would be harder to tell when he
    was getting tired.
    

    I've used draw reins on my Trakehner.  I know you're not suppose to,
    but what do you do with 16.2 hands of obstinate, badly trained 10
    year old bully?  Hari would get above the bit any time you asked him
    to do something he didn't like (a.k.a. work).  What can I say, he's
    lazy.
    
    You have to be real careful with draw reins, though.  If you have a
    nasty/frustrated horse and the get mad enough to rear - you're going to
    fall over (and that is not much fun).  In milder version of misuse, you
    end up with false flexion (head too low and neck flexed in the middle
    not at the poll).  This is a VERY difficult habit to cure. 
    
    Also if your horse is heavy on his forehand, draw reins will encourage
    him to stay that way.  When I train a horse, first I get him off his
    forehand and then I worry about his head position.  Ideally, with the
    right training, the horse's head position will happen as the
    hindquarters get engaged and his back relaxes.
    
    Which reminds me of a pet peeve- riders who sit heavily on the backs
    of green horses.  How in the world is a horse supposed to relax with
    all that "drive with your seat" stuff?  Instead of being round and
    relaxed, what happens is the back gets stiff, the head goes up an the 
    hind end trails out behind. And then you need a gimmick like draw
    reins.  My guys learn to work of leg (mostly in half seat) and don't
    even see a dressage saddle until they can cope with some sitting trot
    in my jumping saddle.  And the sitting trot is introduced gradually,
    a couple steps at a time, with me always looking for signs of
    resistance.
    
        -maureen

	I use draw reins for a limited duration when it seems necessary.  
	But I don't recommend a person using them without an instructor's 
	help first.   

	In my opinion, draw reins are best suited for a horse that
	is difficult to keep round.  The draw reins help to show the horse
	how to 'position' his head.  True, a 'positioning' is all you
	may get at first (and not a horse truly accepting the bit), but
	it can be very helpful in getting started in the right direction
	provided the horse is moving *forward*.

	I disagree with the idea of teaching a horse to 'bend & flex'
	first at the halt.  Since its so important to be forward, before
	asking a horse to round, its best to start asking for it at 
	some naturally forward pace, preferably the trot, or else a 
	*marching* walk.  

	Draw reins can encourage a horse to lean.  I've never used them
	on a horse that had a tendency to lean on the reins already
	(ie heavy on the forehand).  Also, I would never use them on
	horse that has a tendency to get behind the bit.  As was already said,
	one danger is to get them flexing their necks in the middle, rather 
	than at the poll.   

	Draw reins are meant to be temporary.  So as a weaning process to
	both the horse & rider, you should loosen them up as often
	as possible, and still try to retain the roundness with your
	natural aids.  If you find you can only go a few strides without
	them, thats okay, since your 'training wheels' will be there if
	you need them.  Your goal is to be able to loosen them up completely
	and then do away with them altogether.

	Melinda

    Thanks everyone for all the replies so far.  Please keep them coming!
    
    Maureen,  you mentioned getting the horse off the forehand first, how
    do you accomplish this?  What techniques should I work on?  Also, how
    do you bring about the roundness in their frame.  My critter is a 
    shortish, slightly long backed, normally high headed guy.  He seems a
    little flat or even hollow in the back.  Although, I do have pictures
    of us jumping and he does use his neck more and in the process of
    picking up his front end, he appears to be more rounded then.
    
    I have only used the drawreins for 30 minutes at a streach.  Then I go 
    without them for a few rides.  Most of the work is at a rather forward
    trot, and a small amount of more collected cantering.  I want to
    achieve a slower and better frame at the canter.  If I supple my hands
    at the trot, he will drop down to the bit.  He doesn't maintain that con-
    tact for very long (1/2 to 3/4 way around the ring) though.
    
    So, with the above data, please add to or expand on methods for getting
    a better trot and canter out of my critter.  Thanks again for all the
    previous responses.    Marti & Rabi (Fuzzy Critter)
    

    Except for specific cases of reschooling incorrectly trained horses, 
    I don't recommend using draw reins.  Horses can very easily evade correct 
    flexion and contact by bending their necks behind the poll and getting 
    behind the bit.  Training shortcuts have a way of leading to different, 
    and more insidious, problems down the road.
    
    
    Mary

	Since we've stirred up this topic again, I have a question for some 
	of the upper level dressage noters out there...  In reviewing a new 
	test I'm riding in 2 weeks, I see that I have to do a number of
	movements on the diagonal while cantering, and at the corner letter
	perform a flying change.   

	I know how to cross a diagonal correctly (from letter to letter),
	but in this case, shouldn't I 'undershoot' the destination letter
	just a hair, so I have time to straighten, and do the flying change?
	I know that a flying change should never be asked while a horse is
	bending, so I assume I must straighten him first. 
	
	Thanks for your input.

	Melinda

    
    
    	Hi Melinda!
    
    	You are right! You must have straighten you're horse at the
        corner letter to do the flying change. You have to be on
    	the track about 1 meter before the letter to change at the point.
    
    	I'm writing from Germany and don't know if there is a difference
    	between the U.S. and our rules.
    
    	I'm happy to see a noter who is participating in this level.
    	Is this your first try?
    	
    	Don't forget to tell about your experiences.
    
        Hope it might help.
    
    	regards
    	Renate
              

    Re: .410
    
    Melinda,
    
       I have always been told to "undershoot" the letter at the end of the
    diagonal.  This way you are straight when you hit the letter and can
    prepare for any transition at the letter, or set up properly for the
    corner.  I have also seen this in print - latest being in the dressage
    issue of the Chronicle and they were talking about a training level
    test in that particular article.
    
    						Jan

    		    -< World Equestrian Games>-
    
    Hi everyone,
    is there somebody out there who is going to visit the WEG? I live
    in Stockholm ( nearby ), and shall try to get there at least one,
    or two days. I want to look at the GP Dressage, I think it starts
    the 25:th or 26:th of july. It would be fun to meet some "notes-
    friends"!  
    Regards,
    Eva H

    Re: .410
    
    Melinda,
    
       An even better answer to your question can be found in the Jully
    1990 issue of Dressage & CT in the FEI Symposium article.  They
    discussed the two options you brought up and found something wrong with
    each.  The problem with turning at the letter and doing the change was
    as you stated - the horse is not straight when you ask for the change. 
    The problem with undershooting the letter is that you technically end
    up doing a stride of counter-canter before the letter, at which point
    you straighten and change leads.  In the article they said that this is
    not correct since the movement before the flying change did not call
    for counter-canter.  The solution presented in the article is that you
    perform the flying change the stride before you turn on to the long
    side.  The judges at the symposium felt that judges should not penalize
    for this since you will be very close to the corner letter when
    performing the flying change and that judges should even reward for
    this since you know that either of the other solutions has faults.  If
    you don't get Dressage & CT, send me your mail address and I'll send
    you a copy of the article.
    
    						Jan

	Thank you (Jan & Renate) for the replies to my question on 
	the flying change.  I had asked my trainer (over the phone), and
	he said that I should undershoot the corner letter slightly, 
	straighten, and then change.

	Jan, I'd be interested in reading the article you
	mentioned.  I don't get that publication.  Thank you for
	offering to send it to me.  I'm at TTB1-2/B01.
	
	Eva, you'll have to be our notesfile reported for the WEG
	in Stockholm.   The US is very excited about Carol Lavell's
	horse Gifted.  I've just come from a show this weekend, where
	rumors were flying around that she'd turned down a second
	offer for him of 2 million.  (Last year she turned down 1 million).
	People were speculating that she'd sell him after the games.
		
	Renate, yes it was my first time at this level, this past weekend
	I tried out Fourth level test 3, which has half canter pirourettes,
	with flying changes at the corner letter.   We managed to manuever
	the flying change at the corner letter and we won 3 out of 4 classes 
	at 4th level!  I had taken out my horses braids and was ready to
	go home, when they asked the qualifying class winners to come
	receive mounted awards.    I was half in shock throughout the
	whole thing, since I never expected to win.  Ralph Lauren sponsored
	the show and I received a huge bottle of Safari perfume, then
	did a victory canter with Anne Gribbons, followed by an interview
	with the Chronicle.  But now I'd better get my head out of the clouds
	and settle into 'real work' on a Monday morning... 
		
	Melinda	

    Congratulations!!!!
    
    Mary

    congratulations melinda!  :-)
    
    i'm so happy for you and ,...ok..., i'm humbled now.  i was excited 
    this weekend because we did well at first level and are considering
    moving up to second level by fall.  i can't fathom making to 4th
    level!  (maybe someday...)
    
    anyway, keep having fun...this is what it's all about!
    
    janet.
    
    ps  don't know if you remember but we met many moons ago at zko when i
    was a summer hire.  i'm back for this summer too.  (when i'm not riding
    higgins!)

    MANY CONGRATULATIONS ,MELINDA!
    You are in a much higher level in your riding than I am. What kind
    of horse are you riding? Maybe you know that Ann Gribbons ( and
    a couple of others americans) often buy swedish horses. Now and
    then we get reports about results of swedish horses in USA, mostley
    in a horse&ridingsportpaper named RIDSPORT. I'm going on vacation
    now, but I will get back to the office at least one or two times
    and report to you what I've seen. I will especially look at the horse
    you told about. Till then, have a nice summer.
    Kind regards, Eva 
    

    
    Hi Melinda,
    
    You can be proud of your great success!!!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!
    I'm a dressage rider, too. I know the long work you need to be good
    in such high classes.
    
    Your classification is different to the German. We have in medium test
    flying changes, half pass in the trott but no half canter pirouettes.
    (The canter pirouettes make me mad, they are way to difficult)
    In advanced level there are the canter pirouettes, half pass in the
    trott and canter, flying change at every 4th, 3rd (2nd, every) stride.
    We have in each level several tests wich are different in there degree
    of difficulty. 
    
    Would you like to tell me about your classification. I'm very
    interested.
    
    I hope you understand my english.
    
    Regards,
    Renate                                                        
    

	
	Thank you for all your kind comments...

	Renate, You asked how the US levels compare to the 
	German levels.

	Your medium levels sound like our 3rd and 4th levels.
	We have 3 tests at 3rd level, and 3 tests at 4th level. 
	The highest 4th level test (3) is close to the FEI Prix
	St. George test, but is less difficult.  (In just a few
	weeks I will be trying the Prix St. George test!)

	My worst score has been on the half canter pirourettes.
	One of the judges (Jessica Ranshaussen) was helpful by
	explaining to me to collect much more before I ask for it.

	What levels do you compete at in Germany?  What breed horse
	do you ride?  We had a German judge at one of our shows over 
	here, by the name of Volker Moritz.   Do you know of him?  
	He liked my horse, who is a German Westfalen gelding.  

	Melinda

	
	

    
    
    	Hi Melinda,
    
    	Thank you for your response.
    
    	The Grand Prix St. Georg is similar to our Test S9 (S = schwer =
        difficult) I never tried the St. Georg but the S9!
      
    	I'm competing in jumping level novice and dressage between medium
        and advanced. I was placed one time in advanced level (6th). This
    	was the greatest dream of my own to be placed with my own mare in
    	this level. It was a test with flying changes every 4th and 3rd
        stride and full/hole (don't know how you say to it) canter
        pirouettes. My worst score has been on the pirouettes too.
    
    	I've not a problem with the collection before the pirouettes. My
    	problem is to go foreward in the pirouette or to finish it and 
    	go to to the canter again. 
    
    	My horse is a grey Bavarian mare. She is 15 jears-old and teached
    	by myself. I'm taking lesson from a teacher, 1-3 times a week.
    	
    	I wish you great luck at your Grand Prix St. Georg test!
    	Please talk about your experiances again!
    
    	reagards,
    	Renate
        

Renate and Melinda,

As an avid reader of this dressage note topic (although I'm just learning the
basics), I really enjoy listening to both of you discuss some of the higher
movements! I know how much effort I put in just trying to get the basic working
gaits correct; I can't imagine how much it takes to be at your levels...

Best of luck to both of you!

	Renate,

	That's wonderful that you can take from 1-3 lessons a week!
	I normally take a lesson once a week, but ever since my regular
	instructor went to Switzerland, I haven't been able to take
	many lessons with my new instructor.   My new instructor is very good,
	but he's also very busy, and its hard for me to schedule time with
	him.   I have to trailer my horse 70 miles (112 Kilometers?) 
	for a lesson!  US dressage instructors are few and far between!

	I've never seen a Bavarian horse before, but yours sounds
	very nice.  Good luck at all your competitions this year, and
	let us know how you do.    

	Melinda

	

    i need a little help -- any suggestions would be welcomed!
    
    here's the problem.  my horse is **very** supple...sounds great except
    i can't always get a straight canter depart out of him.  higgins is 
    a master at haunches-in so when i ask for canter, my outside leg not
    only says "canter" to him but also a little (or a lot!) of haunches-in.
    this is problematic in tests like first-2,3,4 where you come
    across the diagonal at walk, trot at A and canter at F.  so coming
    right at the judge we are frequently on 3, or worse: 4, tracks! we have
    tried the following:
    	-- a little shoulder-in as i ask (he's too quick we still get
    crooked)
    	-- don't put my outside leg back so far (don't always get a canter,
    just a faster or more active trot)
    	-- use more inside leg to keep haunches on correct track (sometimes
    get incorrect lead)
    	-- use less of the corner and leg-yield slightly just prior to F
    (same as first solution--he's too quick)
    
    what do you think?  am i on the right track?  do something different? 
    or do one of these less subtley until he understands?
    
    crooked-and-don't-know-what-to-do
    
    janet and higgins.

    This is difficult to deal with without actually seeing what is
    happening, but here is a suggestion.  I am assuming the problem is not
    a disobedience on Higgin's part, but rather a misunderstanding.  The 
    aids for haunches-in and canter are not identical.  Try refining your 
    aids.  The outside leg aid for the canter depart should be very light 
    and very quick, and should immediately follow a very light half halt.  
    By a very light half halt, I do not mean doing anything with your 
    hands/fingers/reins.  Simply stretch yourself taller by lifting from 
    the chest so that the area between your pelvis and ribs becomes longer. 
    As you do this move the outside leg back and ask for the depart.  Again,
    very quick and very light.  You are not asking him to bend, simply to
    depart from his outside hind leg.
    
    Mary
    
    
    
    Obviously, in the middle of a show in the middle of the test is not the
    place to fix this!

Does anyone know how the facilities are at Beland Stables in Lakeville, Mass.?

I was just perusing my NEDA Omnibus and noticed that Beland Stable is having
a show in early September... If anyone has any info about warm-up, what the 
rings are like, etc. could you please post some info here?

Thanks in advance!

Linda

   Hello,

     I am presently helping a friend (who is pregnant) school her Dutch
     warmblood filly (1 1/2 yrs and almost 15.h).  She is a real sweetie - 
     her mom is a thoroughbred named Sidora (a former dressage beast of 
     Kathy Connely's) and her dad is a Dutch warmblood named Rampal.  

     My dilema is this...

     The filly is being schooled in hand for the curing (sp?) this fall and 
     all is going well, but I need to get back into the swing of things in
     regard to riding and finding a dressage instructor.  In other words -
     I want to be fully prepared when we get on her next year and begin her
     training under saddle.

     I am intersetd in hooking up with someone who has a horse that they aren't
     able to ride as often as they like.  I would be intersetd in taking one
     lesson a week with your trainer.  

     I rode under Sandy Most for quite a few years and am a former member of
     Groton Pony Club.  I am responsible and will take time to do all the 
     little things ie; clean up after myself/clean tack after use/make sure
     the horse is clean, comfy and cooled out properly, etc. etc.

     Pls. let me know if you, or someone you know is interested.

     Thanks,

       Simone
           DTN - 225-7207

     P.S. - I work in Hudson, Ma. and live in Princeton, Ma. - I am willing
            to travel within reason.

Maplewood Farm in Berlin Mass has some school horses... What about something
like that?

Sue Steinhof and Linda Parmenter are the instructors...

Good luck!

  Hello again-

   I just came back from watching Sue Steinhof give a lesson to a few of her
   student workers.  I was quite impressed with the facility (the barn and
   grounds were spotless and you can tell the place is run properly).  Sue
   seems to know what she's doing and I signed up for a lesson for next week.

   It was nice to find a barn that has decent school horses and teaches dressage
   instead of hunt seat.  Actually, this is the only barn I have ever heard of
   that does this.  

   Thank you so much for the tip.  I can't wait to get on and ride!!!


  Simone

Kathy Romberg mailed me the highlights of an article from a Feb 1990 issue
of Dressage & CT.   (Thank you Kathy!)  She gave me permission to place
her highlights of the article, written by Gen. Jonathan Burton, here in 
the notesfile.  Next year is the year the dressage tests get re-written. It
seems like there are going to be some pretty big changes.   Check it out... 

-Melinda

Training level:
	- tests can be ridden in small or large arena (no change here)
	- T2 introduces a 3-loop serpentine between the rail and the center line
	  on both hands
	- the free walk will be required on light contact (not loose and long)
	- T3 will introduce the halt
	- T4 introduces 15 meter circles

First level
	- (FIrst 1 & 2) can be performed in large or small arena
	- First 1 has 10 meter 1/2 circles, 3-loop serpentine width of arena, 15
	  meter trot circles, lengthen trot
	- First 2 introduces 10 meter circles at canter, lengthen stride at 		
          canter
	- First 3 starts leg yielding, change of lead thru trot
	- First 4 introduces 3-loop serpentine between rail and center line

2nd level
	- 2-1 can be performed in large or small arena, starts shoulder-in and 		
          rein back
	- 2-2 has 8 meter circles, 20 meter serpentine at canter w/no change of
	  lead, 1/2 circle B-X followed by 1/2 circle X-E
	- start medium trot, medium canter
	- 2-3 simple change of lead (walk)
	- 2-4 introduce travers and 1/2 turns on haunches
	- collected trot and canter req'd at all 2 level tests
	- 2-2 requires counter canter around short side

3rd level
	- all in large arena
	- 3-1 introduces 1/2 pass at trot, 1/2 pirouette in walk, serpentine at 
	  colelcted canter of 2 loops between C and X
	- 3-2 starts 1/2 pass at canter, 4-loop serp.at canter, loops 1 and 4
	  true canter, loops 2 & 3 counter with simple change at X
	- 3-3 introduces flying changes following canter 1/2 pass from center to 
	  long side

4th level
	- 4-1 has right and left 6 meter volte at collected trot
	- 4-2 has 8 meter circles at collected canter, 3 flying changes every 
	  4th stride, collected trot 1/2 pass from F to X
	- 4-3 introduces 1/2 pirouettes at canter and 3 flying changes every 3rd
	  stride

5th level (new)
	- copies of the german KS' Level tests
	- 5-1 is equivalent of Prix St. Georges. It contains 1/2 pir. at walk 
	  and canter a 5 flying changes every 3rd and 4th stride
	- 5-2 has INtermediate 1 movements to include full pir. at canter,
	  zigzags at canter, 7 flying changes every 3rd & 2nd stride
	- 5-3 - equivalent of Int 2 - includes zigzag at trot and canter, 9 
	  changes every 2nd stride and 9 changes at 1 tempo. 7-10 piaffe steps
	  are required
	- 5-4 is equivalent of Grand Prix - includes piaffe, passage, zigzags at 
	  canter, full pirouettes, 9 flying changes at two tempo, and 15 at one 
	  tempo.

    
    Hi Melinda,
    
    Thanks a lot for your last reply (.431)!
    That's very interesting for me. There are some differences to the
    German tests.
    I'm at your 5th level till second test without the zigzags. I have
    ridden tests who are very similar to the Prix St. Georges. But this
    is easier than the other 5th level tests I have ridden.
    My horse knows a little bid about piaffe. It's not enough for competing
    but it's very good for the collection - and it's my fun!
    
    What is happen with your competitions? Tell me please.
    
    I was placed again in 5th level the weekend before last weekend. I'm
    so happy that all the hard work payed off.
    
    Have fun with your horses,
    Renate
    

 Renate,

 Thats wonderful that you've been doing well in your shows.
 I too have been having some good luck in the shows.  I'm
 showing Prix St George now and have won two classes and placed
 2nd in another.  I'm still showing my horse at fourth level
 where he has been in the top placings also.
  
 We get 6's now for the half canter pirouettes which is a big
 improvement.  Before, I was holding him too tight with the reins.
 Now he does them more freely and looks much lighter.   

 Also all three gaits are getting more collected but they still need
 to have more collection.  My trainer just went on vacation for a month 
 (in Europe) so I don't have any help.  I would like to do more piaffe 
 to help his collection, but I'll wait until my trainer comes back.

 How many more competitions do you have this year?   How large are your
 classes?  I usually have from 10-15 riders in my class.   I imagine German 
 dressage shows have harder competition (better riders/horses) than the 
 average American dressage shows.  But I don't know how they compare.
 We try to get European judges to come and judge our shows to get a 
 European perspective.  

 Good luck in your shows.

 Melinda
	

    Hi Melinda and Renate, and all you other noters, too.
    I must make an apologize to you for not reporting about what I saw at
    the WEG, the Grand Prix Dressage. When I came to office, I could'nt log
    in, so I didn't reach the notesfile. By now, you all now the results
    from Stockholm, but I can tell you Melinda that our larges horse &
    ridingpaper had a an article about Caroll Levell and her horse, where
    she told that she had to sell some land from their farm to afford to
    keep her hores. The horse was absolutley super, and it was a lot of
    people who thougt they got too low points. I liked Robert Dovers horse,
    too. But if I just could get me one of all theese superb horses, I
    would have chosen a chestnut gelding from Australian. I don't remember
    the name, but I shall look it up when I come home tonight . By for now,
    
    Eva 
                                               

    Hi again,now I've found out the name of the horse I liked much;
    Tutenkhamen, ridden by Peter Weston. Ofcourse it was great to see all
    the famous " dressagestars " live; Rembrandt,Courlandus,Gauguin de
    Lully,Matador( I missed Andiamo ) and so on, but it was Tutenkhamen
    who went right to my heart. This WEG competitions was the most exciting
    event I ever been to. 
    Today I did read about a swedish horse in Usa, named Fantasia who is
    preforming in one of the higher levels in dressage. Do you Melinda know
    something about her? I know you live in a big country and she might
    live in a total different part of it, but maybe you've heard of her.
    Her father(sire?) is Arram and mother(mare?) is Farone 9529.
    Kind regards,
    
    Eva 

	Hi Eva,

	It sounds like you had a spectacular time at the WEG.
	I'd heard too, that many people felt Carole Lavell's second
	ride should have earned her a higher score than it did.
	I wonder if all the publicity over her and her horse could
	have harmed her (?)

	I looked up the Swedish horse (Fantasia) you mentioned and it
	lives on the other side of the country from me (California).
	I read about it winning awards though.

	What kind of horse do you ride?   

	Melinda

Is anyone riding in either the NEDA Sweepstakes this weekend or the NEDA CDI
next weekend at Centerton Farm in Stratham NH? I was curious if there were many
DECcies heading out to either of these shows? If so, what levels and what are
you horse's show names? 

Best of luck to you!

	Some results of the Neda Sweepstakes from yesterday:


	First level:  winner was Kris Bobo on Kyrie.
		      (Kris had one 1st level ride which brought a 76%)

	Second Level: (don't recall the winner here)

	Third Level:  Winner was Arlene Full.
		      I believe Tommy Noone won also as a Jr/Yr.

	Fourth Level: Winner was Shelly Francis on Pikant
		      2nd place was Mona Sancousy Gaudet on Legato
		      3rd place was myself(!) on Martinique.
		      4th place was Tracy Vazza on Woodstock
		      5th place was Marylin Seits on Congo
		      6th place was Ann Guptil on Kilwarin
	

	I noticed one of our old noter's, Jeanie Macone, was winning
	in training level aboard 'In Luck.'

    
    	Congratulations!!  
    
    

    Hi Melinda,
    thank's for your looking up of Fantasia. It's always fun when swedish
    horses doing well, espcially when they have new "homecountries".
    I have no horse of my own for the moment. I had a arabian stallion
    named Rusneg( sire-Ruszacie and mare-Rusneg ), but then I had to sell
    him in the fall of 1985. Two small children, a full time work and the
    horse too, I just didn't make it. But I still have contact with the
    woman who bougth him, who is an active longdistance rider. And I know
    that he has a good life, but I still miss him. Now my girls are 8 and
    6 years old, so I have a some more time to do things by myself. I've
    been riding once or twice a week since I sold my horse. Its first now
    during the last year Ive been able to ride more often. I was lucky
    to be asked from a nabor, if I wanted to ride their horse. It's a
    eleven year old swedish warmblood, named Congac( a strong one!). His
    father is a thoroughbred stallion named Curaco xx, who has left many
    good horses. Congac is very well educated, so this is a good
    opportunity for me. Unfourtunatley his owners are most fond of jumping,
    but I hope that they will allow me to take part in some dressage con-
    test( in a low level ). 
    Kind regards,
    
    Eva H
                     

I've never known the answer to that question.  Just this past weekend
I was reading in the Neda show program how 'no one knows' the answer
to this question.   Maybe some of our European noters know why the
dressage letters (AKVESHCMRBPFGIXLD) were chosen, and who may have chosen 
the letters/sequence originally.  I would love to know.  Does anyone have any 
theories?

Melinda

    They had a tad too much to drink that day?? :-)
    
    (sorry, I have no control my sanity today...)
    
    

    The discussion on eventing has moved to note 1365. Please join us
    there!
    
    Linda
    

    Ooops! Sorry, that's 1364 this now the eventing topic! Rough day...:-)
    

    
    This is reprinted without permission from THE BEGINNING DRESSAGE BOOK
    by Katheryn Denby-Wrightson and Joan Fry.
    
    	       		Riding For Pleasure
    
    
      It's a beautiful day.  The sky is flawless blue, the sun is shining,
    and the ground is soft and springy underfoot.  You've been planning on
    doing a little more work on legyeilds today, but as you walk to the
    barn where your horse is stabled, you think, "I'd rather go for a
    ride."
    
      So you groom your horse , clean his feet, saddle and bridle him, and
    your ready to go.  But first you want to lunge him.  He follows you
    obediently and with anticipation to the ring, because he's looking
    forward to what's coming next.  You close the gate and let him go. 
    He's so glad to be alive that he is a joy to watch. When he runs out of
    steam he stops and waits for you to attach the lunge line and lunge him
    for a few minutes.  Then you undo the throatlatch, uncross the bridle
    reins, and fasten the throatlatch again.  The buckle's a little stiff,
    and it takes you a minute, but your horse stands quietly, without
    fussing.  You put your foot in the stirrup iron and swing over his
    back.  He doesn't move a muscle.  When you're setteled in the saddle
    you ask him to "walk on" - and you're on your way.
    
      You're looking forward to this ride.  Your feels good too, and moves
    forward to the bit with long, elastic strides, alertt and attentive.
    
      Why not canter? you think.
    
      Why not indeed?
    
      So you ask for the trot first, so your horse can balance hinself.  He
    doesn't fight you to go faster; your contact with hismouth remains
    light and steady, even though you know he wants to canter too.  Then
    you ask for a canter on the right lead, since you know that the trail
    ahead goes off to the right.  Because you've prepared him, your horse
    moves smoothly from a balanced, rhythmical trot into a balanced,
    rhythmical canter.  the aids you gave him were so slight that he almost 
    seemed to have read your mind.  And you feel a surge of exhilaration in
    your heart.  the canter is so effortless, so free, that the two of you
    seem to be moving as one being, floating effortlessly over the field in
    a sea of grass.
    
      There's the trail -- you were enjoying yourself so much you almost
    missed it.  You ask your horse for the turn and he does it without
    effort or resistence.  You can feel him bending throughout his whole
    body, and when he straightens, you bring him down to a quiet walk and
    pat his neck.
    
      The trail is shady even in summer, cathedral-like with flashes of
    sunlight through the leaves.  Your horse walks calmly, one ear back
    toward you and the other on the trail ahead.  You can feel everything
    else beging to slip away from you--frustrations with your job, the
    stress of daily living--and you heave a sigh of contentment.
    
      Suddenly there's a loud whirring noise almost under your feet.  Your
    horse swivels both ears around and lookls intently, but continues
    forward without missing a stride.  You're not quite as self-possesed. 
    What was *that*, you wonder-as a grouse bursts through the underbrush
    just ahead of you.
    
      Your horse takes absolutely no notice whatsoever.
    
      Well, well, you muse.  A grouse.  One of nature's small miracles,
    like squirrels and horses and human patience.  You give your horse
    another appriciative pat and continue on your way.  The trail forks
    later on, you remember.  One way passes by an old tumbled-down
    farmhouse, and the other ... Come to think of it, you've never taken
    that other trail.  Where *does* it go?  Today's a good day to find out. 
    Your horse is relaxed and feeling good and confident of you , and your
    on top of the world.  
    
    And that's as it should be in dressage.  It was a long road, but it was
    worth it.  No longer does your horse shy and evade your hands and try
    to get his own way.  He responds eagerly to whatever you ask for, and
    his movements are so easy and cadenced and he looks so elegant that
    people at the stable-- who have known him for years-- have been
    whispering, "Who's *that*?"
    
      
               You tell them "That's my dressage horse."

    That story is great!  only I know that no one at my barn is
    ever going to ask, "Who's that?" when they see my critter.
    The only time I get that response from people is when he 
    has been out rolling after a hard rain storm.  Yeah, I do 
    wish that someday, that the work I am doing now will result in
    a creature simular to the one you pictured.  
    
    That's A LOT of work and wishing away, but your story is inspiring.
    Marti  

    Ah yes....it is why we do what we do! The ultimate goal..unity!
    

So, what do people think of the new 1991 dressage tests which are effective on
December 1, 1990?

How does the new fifth level impact people doing 4th level thinking about moving
to PSG?

Any thoughts about these new tests?

 I haven't looked closely at the new fifth level tests.  I remember
 just glancing, they appeared to map pretty closely to the fei levels.
 What I can't figure out is why we need a fifth level.  For the most
 part, the fei classes contain the least entries.  From what I've
 seen in the new england shows, only the prix st george classes get big (they
 can be packed), but the  Int 1, 2, and Grand Prix classes have very few,
 if any entries.  Now by having a fifth level, it seems we'll tend to 
 have even fewer entries in *both* the fei levels *and* the fifth levels.   
 Am I missing something?  Also, would you rather compete at fei Grand Prix 
 level or fifth level test 4?  If the two tests are really quite comparable, 
 then why not 'go on the record' as having ridden grand prix?  I really
 haven't been keeping up with reading the dressage articles lately, so
 maybe there's a purpose behind this that someone could explain to me.  
 For example, will the fifth level tend to attract amatuer riders, and the 
 fei levels keep the pros?  I haven't figured it out enough to know whether
 I'll choose to compete in the fifth levels next year or fei levels.   I tend 
 to think I'll want to ride the fei equivalents.

 Melinda

Hi Melinda,

I just figured I'd post what the NEDA "Tip of the Hat" is listing as the new
requirements at fifth level (since I'm only at first level, these are *way* 
beyond me ;^)) :

fifth test 1 : 6 meter volte in trot

fifth test 2 : swing pirouettes in canter, flying change of lead every 2nd 
	       stride

fifth test 3 : flying change of lead every stride, piaffe, passage (aren't these
	       in the Grand Prix test also?)

I have no idea what the intent of this new fifth level is, but could it be
considered a "step" from 4th to PSG? Or is it supposed to take the place of
the FEI levels? (Please excuse if these are very naive questions, but I'm still
trying to figure out how to get correct first level movements :^))

Linda

 What about the ahsa international tests, for that matter?  I never
 understood what they were for.  There is an ahsa i level test 1 & 2.
 These appear to be equal in difficulty to fei int 1 & 2 respectively.
 I don't recall ever seeing the ahsa i level classes offered in 
 new england shows, however, I see there are riders receiving usdf
 horse of the year awards at these levels (published in the usdf bulletin)
 so some regions must be offering the classes.  I have to suspect that
 not many competitors choose to compete in the ahsa i level classes,
 and that explains why such low median percentiles can win national awards
 at these levels.

 Linda, I don't think 5th level serves as a stepping stone to psg.
 I don't know what it does?  

 Renate, if you're reading this, can you explain why you might compete
 in the German KS level tests rather than in the FEI level equivalent
 tests?   Our new 5th level tests are the equivalent of your KS level
 tests, but we can't understand why we need both a 5th level and the
 FEI levels, since they both seem to be so much alike.

 Melinda
 
 

Thank goodness the lower levels in dressage aren't as confusing or I'd really
be lost :^)

Melinda and Renate, it really helps to have input from people like yourselves
who are riding and know about the upper levels!

    The thorougbred mare I was riding last weekend was absoulutly gorgeous.
    Everything with her was right..the right look, the right temper, lovely
    to sit on, very cooperative and so on...But not the price!!
    It was $7.200, a far too much for my wallet. I realy wanted that horse,
    so that was a pity. But I've made a deal with the owner ( a friend of
    mine ) that I shall ride her over the winter, and then they will sell
    her in the spring ( a little bit more educated then, I hope ).
    So I haven't seen the end of this yet. 
    
    Mistovich, what kind of horse do you have? Thoroughbred, or..?
    
    Regards,
    Eva

    Can someone explain what an " ahsa " is, I've never heard that
    expression before ??
    
    regards,
    Eva

    Eva,
    My guy is an arabian.  AHSA is the American Horse Show Association.
    It's the governing body for "recognized" horse shows in the U.S.
    
    Mary

    Hi again Mary, thank's for the translation. I had an arabian stallion
    named Rusneg ( Ruczacie x Rusnega ) but I had to sell him five years
    ago ( I think I've already have been writing about him in this notes-
    fil), because of the I couldn't manage children & work & the horse,
    it became too much. But now my girls are old enough to ride and the
    oldest has started to take lessons. 
    An arabian horse that both me and the girls could ride would be great,
    but I think we have to wait a couple of years.
    Here in the Stockholm-area it is very expensive to keep a horse.
    At the ridingschools in town the cost per month are around $450-460.
    Where I live, 50 km from Stockholm,it is a little less.
    What are the costs where you live?
    Kind regards, Eva
    

    Hi Eva,
    The costs vary quite a bit, depending on the quality of the facilities
    and service, but the range generally seems to run from $300-600/month. 
    It depends partly on how close to Boston you get and whether or not
    there is an indoor arena.  I understand about the cost and also the time
    involved.  I was originally planning to wait 1-2 more years before I
    got back to riding, but after my boyfriend didn't get relocated to this
    area, I figured I didn't have anything better to do with my evenings! 
    I couldn't afford the kind of horse I really wanted, either, but I'm
    hoping in about 3 years I'll be able to get an upper level dressage
    prospect.  In the meantime, Algiers is cute and fun.
    
    Mary                    

    
    Hi,
    I didn't compete the FEI because of the better riders/hoses there.
    My teacher want me to try next year. We are working on the flying
    changes every stride. My horse and me aren't able to get ribbons
    at FEI but we should do it for exercise.
    I pay approximately $370/month. This is expensive in our region.
    
    Our tests change next year too. Hope they are not more difficult.
    
    Has anybody time to write down a 5th level? Would be interesting
    to compare it with the german S level.
    
    Renate

I was talking to someone at the USDF office yesterday, and happened
to ask them about the 5th level vs FEI vs International 1 & 2.   
Ofcourse the USDF isn't the AHSA, but the woman I spoke to said the AHSA
would be 'phasing out the International tests 1 & 2.'  She did say that 5th 
level was a warmup for FEI.  I asked how could it be a warmup when its the 
same level of difficulty?  She told me some differences between the FEI 
and 5th level -  how in 5th level a snaffle and spurs are optional.   In FEI 
you must have a double bridle and spurs on.  I asked her if the shadbelly was 
optional at 5th level as well. She didn't know.  I don't think riding
in a snaffle and riding without spurs consitutes a 'warmup for FEI.'
If anything, riding with a snaffle and without spurs is harder to do!  
But it does sound like what someone said, how the AHSA just wants to have
some ruling/control at those levels.  So now there will be AHSA zone horse of 
the year awards at 5th level and 5th level qualifying classes (where previously
these stopped at 4th level).

Yes, Renate, I think you're the only German noter (who writes anyway)!
At the S level, do you have to wear a shadbelly (top coat with tails?).
Can you use a snaffle bit?   What FEI level will you try next season?
It sounds like you're mare is schooling grand prix now.   In the US,
there aren't many FEI level mares competing.  Is this true in Germany too?


Melinda

    Does anybody know why, at second level, they are mixing working and
    medium paces?  It seems to me that years ago they used "shortened,
    working and lengthened" to prepare for "collected, medium and extended"
    movement.  It seems awfully confusing to me to combine working trots
    and canters with medium trots and canters in the same test. (Not that
    I'm competing at 2nd level!  Maybe will go training next year...if
    budget/time/energy allows)
    
    Mary

re: .467

I just looked at the 2nd level tests and I don't remember that they are 
mixing any working and medium gaits. All of the trot and canter work is
collected or medium and the walk is free or medium. 

	It seems like the 3 loop serpentine called for in training
	level test 2 adds a higher degree of difficulty to the test
	than before. The new serpentine runs from quarter line to 
	quarter line and therefore is only 10 meters wide.   This requires
	more bend, and a more difficult change of bend over the center line.
	I think this is a much more difficult movement than the usual 20 meter
	wide 3 loop serpentine (which is still being called for in 1st level).

	Melinda

	

    re: .468  I just looked at the tests again.  I thought I had seen the
    working trot interspersed throughout the tests, but it was just on
    entry.
    
    Mary

re: .469

	What isn't totally obvious is that First level is not necessarily 
ridden in a large arena. I believe they can use the small arena up to (and
including?) 2nd level. 

	If you draw out the figures, even in the small arena, wou find that
the 3-loop serpentine is not the same as the 3-loop serpentine the width of the
arena.  Since the small arena is 40 meters long, for each loop of the serpentine
you travel ~13 meters towards the opposite end.   In other words, the loops are 
not going to be half circles, so the horse is really not doing 10 meter circles at 
training level.  I think a harder movement is the 3-loops serpentine using the 
full width of the arena, which is in first level.  (So you'd be doing 13 meter
1/2 circles connected by straight lines.)


	I've actually tried the training level serpentine, and it isn't all that
painful. The hardest part is the planning.

	re: last

	But either one of the serpentines has loops of the same length and
	curvature. The only difference is the width of the serpentines.
	So in the narrow serpentine, the horse better get that change of
	bend right on the money (no time to be late), since otherwise
	there's no room to recover like there is in a wider serpentine.
	Whenever you have to manuever something in less time (in this case
	change the bend), then I think of it as being more difficult.  

	I think the major test of the serpentine is to show how a horse
	can change the bend, and it just seems like that change of bend
	comes up a lot quicker in a narrow serpentine.  

	I disagree that a serpentine has straight lines in it.  If I thought
	it did, then I may have agreed with your reasoning since I know
	how hard it is to ride a straight line!	:^)  But I'm quite sure
	the only straight strides are those one stride before each change 
	of bend.

	If anything, these new tests have given us something to chat about!
	I've enjoyed hearing everyone's opinion, although I know its hard
	for other people to talk (write) when I won't shuttup.  :^) 


	Mary,  I had to learn this strange test this summer which mixed
	up working movements with collected/medium/extended movements.
	The test is called 'Prix St. James' -- I know, I'd never heard of
	it either, and I don't know who created it.   But it was part
	of a PSG derby class, where the top winners would 'ride off' this 
	PSJ test.  The test was to show how an upper level horse could still
	work in a lower level frame when asked.  It was kind of fun and
	interesting to mix up the levels all in one test.  

	Have a nice Thanksgiving, everyone.

	Melinda

	

Melinda,

>But either one of the serpentines has loops of the same length and
>curvature. The only difference is the width of the serpentines.


	 Agreed (almost),  but  how do you get that extra width.  If the
     loop  sizes  are the same, then the difference is in the connection
     between  the  loops.  If each loop takes 1/2 of the arena, then the
     only  choice you have in First level is to connect those loops with
     straight lines.  Kind of like riding the short side of the arena in
     between each loop of the serpentine.

	 In training  level, you don't have enough space to complete the
     loop.   In the training test, the space for one loop is 5 meters by
     13.33  meters.  There is no way that you can fill this space with a
     1/2  circle.   This area allowed is 1.66 meters too NARROW to allow
     for  a  correct  1/2  circle to be executed.  The figure you end up
     riding  will  not  allow  for  1/2 circles to be made.  (You have a
     lengthwise  diameter of 13.33 meters and a widthwise diameter of 10
     meters  vs.  lengthwise diameter of 13.33 and widthwise diameter of
     20 meters in First level.)

         __      
	(__      1st level          (      Training level
	 __)     <----               )     <----
        (__                         (

	 I was  also  taught  that serpentines only have a single stride
     where  the  horse  was  straight.   In  addition,  I  learned  that
     serpentine loops were 1/2 circles.  However, that was back when you
     did 3 loops the width of the arena in 60 meters, not 40.  If you're
     doing  it  in a large arena, then yes, the 1st level test is easier
     cuz you're doing 3 20 meter 1/2 circles, but those don't seem to be
     the figures any more.

	 Maybe what  they're  trying  to  see  is  if  you  *can* ride a
     straight line in the middle of 2 1/2 circles in first level.

	That's interesting that you interpreted this movement as 
	a wavy line.  Maybe this is what is expected, but somehow I always
	thought when a serpentine crossed the center line, that the
	horse/rider should be perpendicular to the long side at that
	point (or parellel to the short side, whichever you prefer).  
	
	I'm not sure still why you say its not possible to do this
	since when you make your initial turn from A, you've gone
	from being perpendicular (to the longside), to beginning your
	first loop.   Also when you finish your last loop you have to 
	end up perpendicular to the longside again.

	I pictured it like this:

	     T2			First level
	
	     A                       A
	     _			    __        .
	    (_                     (__        |  40 meters total
	     _)                     __)       |   
            (_	                   (__        v
	     C                      C
					      

	I think I've seen several conflicting descriptions of how
	to ride serpentines in various books.  So its no doubt
	we both have different ideas of how this one should be
	ridden.   When I sketch it out, I know I could ride it
	either way (your way or mine).  Its just, which way will
	the judges think is correct?   And it turns out, (no pun 
	intended), judges often have a wide range of ideas over
	whats correct, even over the simplest of things!


		

    They seem to have a thing for serpentines in these new tests.  I was
    surprised to see half-arena serpentines at the canter in 1st level and
    full arena serpentines at the canter in 2nd level.  I'll have to try
    these and see how it goes - I've only done the full width ones before. 
    
    I had heard the same thing that Melinda described in .475 - that the
    horse should be perpendicular to the center line when you cross it
    doing a serpentine.  I'll have to drag out my old Dressage and CT
    magazines and see what people have written about it.
    
    						Jan

In both cases, assuming a 20x40 meter (small) arena, each loop should be 13.33
meters in 'height'.

In Training level you have a 
	total width = 10 meters (radius = 5 meters)
        total height = 13.33 meters (radius = 6.66 meters)
	 
In order to do correct 1/2 circles for the loops, you need to have a width
radius of 6.66 meters.  What you have is a width of 5 meters (a difference of
1.66 meters). Therefore, each end of each loop is missing 1.66 meters of width
needed to complete the 1/2 circle.  You're trying to draw a 1/2 circle in a 
rectangle whose width is less than 1/2 it's length. It can't be done.  That 
be like saying you can have a circle whose radius is less than half it's 
diameter. The Training serpentine must be a 'wavy line' since there is not 
space for a the complete 1/2 circle.  To do proper 1/2 circle loops you need 
to have a space that's 13.33 meters wide, not 10 meters wide.


In First level you have
	total width = 20 meters (raduis = 10 meters)
	total height = 13.33 meters (radius = 6.66 meters)

Since your height radius is shorter than your width radius, you have to do 
something with the extra space on the width of the figure.  Opposite to the 
Training level test, you have an extra 6.66 meters of width when doing the
First level serpentine.  What do you do with it, since when you finish with
your 1/2 circle you are already perpendicular to the center line, and that is
where you want to be 6.66 meters in front of where you are.  My thought is that 
you go straight. 

    Hi Melinda,
    I've never weared a shadbelly on competition. They ask for it in K�r
    sometimes. It's compulsory in the FEI level. How is it in the US?
    I'll try Inter I next year. Hope my teacher will borrow me an old 
    shadbelly of her.
    We can't use a snaffle bit in that levels. We start with the curb bit in
    some low levels. I don't like the curb.  
    Yes it is the same in Germany as in the US. There aren't many mares in
    FEI level.  I don't know why.
    Don't form a wrong idea about my horse and me. My teacher want me to 
    compete in FEI level for training. 
    Do you compete in FEI level next year? What do you train with your
    horse during the winter?
    Renate with aching muscles. (rode 3 horses yesterday)
                                      

	
	Renate,
	
	Yes, the rules are the same here.  At FEI a rider must wear a
	shadbelly and must use a double bridle (curb and snaffle).

	I think people define their horse's level by whatever level
	they have competed it successfully.  From what I've heard, your 
	competitions are much harder than ours (you have better horses & 
	riders).  So if you came over here you'd probably win a lot!   Also, 
	I've heard that US dressage people tend to describe their horse as 
	being at a certain level.  While a European dressage person would 
	describe the same horse as being two levels LOWER than the US person 
	thought.  I've only heard this from other people, but I guess that 
	its probably true.

	I hope to show my horse FEI Int 1 and 2 next season.  We are schooling
	the flying changes every stride.  Last night I got 13, before I ran
	out of diagonal! But I haven't gotten the count right yet on the canter
	zig zags.  Also, my full pirouettes are weak, and I think I will need 
	someone waving a longe whip from the side of the arena to get a piaffe.
	But even if I know I'll only get 4's on these movements, I want to 
	still give it a try.   My horse has been wonderful, since he doesn't get
	upset by these things.  Its amazing that horses have the concentration
	to do these things at all.
 
	Melinda
		

Okay, just a little more on how to ride the serpentines in the 1991 training and
first level tests.  Because it was going to bother me all weekend, I asked one
of the instructors from Maplewood Farm how the serpentines should be ridden.
Her answer was that the training level serpentine (between quarter lines, at the
trot) should be ridden as half-ovals, not circle portions.  This way you cross
the center line perpendicular to it.  You also have a little bit of a flat side
at each point where you touch the quarter line. So, when working between the 
quarter lines, your figures are not arcs of a circle. You basically round the 
corners of 1/2 a rectangle, and that's one loop of the serpentine.

The first level serpentine should be ridden as half circles connected by 
straight lines.

	Jan,  

	I'll say its strange to have a 10 meter wide serpentine
	in First Level at the canter!!  Whew, that's much harder
	now!   There was never counter canter in first level before.
	Ten+ years ago even, counter canter didn't show up until 
	3rd level!   Good thing I'm working a lot of counter canter
	with the 'green at second level' horse I'm schooling.  

	Melinda

	I consider this 1st level serpentine comparable in difficulty
	to the Prix St George movement with counter canter S's.  It
	is very difficult to get that one stride perpendicular to the
	longside.  Half the PSG horses weren't even getting it in my
	classes last summer!

    Hi Melinda,
    
    That's great - 13 flying changes every stride. My best result is 6.
    I tried the zig zags in the canter a few weeks ago. Was horrible.
    
    The only easy thing is a few steps piaffe. I only put my legs back and
    do nothing. My horse knows that she'll get a stroke with the wip if
    she's not doing a few steps. I started to train this on the ground, 
    behind my horse. To see what the legs are doing. Be careful to test
    this with your horse, I have a very calm one.
    
    I'm looking foreward to the international competition I'll see next
    weekend. Oh to see all the good riders, how exciting.
    
    Renate

...that when riding the serpentines in Training Test 2, at no point is the horse 
perpendicular to the center line.  The USDF Winter Calendar of competitions 
shows pictures of some of the new (or more interesting) movements.  One of 
the pictures is for the serpentine in TT2.  It is illustrated as it would be 
done in the standard arena. It looks more like an exaggerated broken line 
(wavy line?) than anything else.  

Other moderately pertinant information :
	1) all walk movements have a coefficient of 2.
	2) a list of which tests may be ridden where:
		small arena only
			Third Level Test 1-S
			Fourth Level Test 1-S

		Either the small or the standard arena
			All Training Level tests
			First Level Test 1
			First Level Test 2
			Second Level Test 1

		standard arena only
			First Level Test 3
			First Level Test 4
			Second Level Test 2
			Second Level Test 3
			Second Level Test 4
			Third Level Test 1
			Third Level Test 2
			Third Level Test 3
			Fourth Level Test 1
			Fourth Level Test 2
			Fourth Level Test 3
			All Fifth Level tests
			All FEI tests
			All Freestyle classes

Kathy,

Are you quoting that line about how the new serpentines don't
require the horses to be perpendicular to the longside upon
each crossing of the center line?  I got the winter calendar 
too, and I glanced at a drawing that looked to me like the 
horse should be perpendicular each time crossing the center 
line (and each loop looked like a half-oval).  

Melinda

Melinda,
	If you look closer at the picture, you will see that each loop of the
serpentine is not a 1/2 oval.  The angle at which the figure crosses the center
line is NOT a 90 degree angle the way it is drawn.


k

    Regardless of drawings, etc. anytime there is a change of bend, there
    will be at least one moment when the horse is straight.  In the case of
    serpentines, in that instant the horse will be perpendicular to the
    center line.  And if you keep your loops perfectly even, then that
    moment will happen as you cross the center line.
    
    Mary

	But in this case, the "one stride straight while changing bend"
	doesn't seem to occur as you are perpendicular to the center line,
	but rather at an angle (similar to riding a short diagonal...) 

    I see (or rather, visualise) what you mean.  I guess the only way to
    know for sure at what angle the horse straightens is to ride the
    movement.  Unless you're really into haggling out the mathematics, in
    which case I can't even begin to imagine trying to actually ride it!  
    
    In any event, my understanding is that a serpentine should be a series 
    of equal, smooth curves with the change of bend happening within one 
    stride.  So a 3 loop serpentine done the full width of a 20 x 60 meter 
    arena will be 3 half circles, but done less than full width becomes 
    smaller and smaller portions of the circle.  I believe the idea 
    is to keep the curves (and bend of the spine) smooth and even. 

     I WISH ALL OF YOU OUT THERE A 
    
    MERRY CHRISTMAS & HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!
    
    EVA HEDELIN
    
    PS. Last tuesday I started in trainig level test with a horse that I
    borrowed, we came on 4:th place among 20 others, it was so fun, I 
    haven't compedted in dressage in almost twelve years.
    	                                                 ds.

  Tiffany is getting on in years, not that that's any excuse, but I think that 
  she is probably a bit stiff behind.  The more she gets ridden, the better she
  is, but I've been having troubles keeping her straight.  In general, she moves
  with her haunches slightly in.  When I try first position down the long-side,
  she usually resists (gets heavy against the bit).  If I slightly counterbend 
  her, she relaxes and comes round, but she isn't totally straight.  I have been
  doing some leg yielding to supple her and a lot of transitions to keep her 
  attention.  Does anyone have any other suggestions?  Also, I would like to 
  know the correct timing for the most effective use of my leg.  ie; when/how
  to use my leg to help bring her hind end under and keep her straight.

  Thanks in advance for the help,

  Simone

	Simone,

	I have a lot of trouble with straightness also.  I'll tell you what
	I try to do about it and maybe this will be of help, I'm not sure.

	Does your horse go with haunches travelling inward in both directions?	
	If not, then it sounds like a suppleness problem, on either the
	horse's part or the riders.  A suppleness problem can usually be worked
	out given the right exercises and a span of time (weeks or months).

	If you find this problem in both directions, then the horse is
	probably compensating somehow for its balance.  If you know she's
	a little stiff then that could be her reason.  
	
	I've found straightness is largely under the control of the rider
	and when I've lost straightness, its been my fault, and not the 
	horse's fault.	When I remind myself, I feel I can regain it.	

	For example, I'm 'right-legged' and sometimes I'm unaware of how 
	I may use more pressure with my right leg which may cause the horse's 
	hind-end to yield to the left.	As another example, I'm also right 
	handed, and sometimes I catch myself worrying about softening the 
	right side of the jaw more than the left.  Either one of these can 
	easily cause a horse to	lose straightness.

	I believe when keeping a horse straight, there must still be
	and 'inside' and 'outside' concept.  Even a center line or
	a quarter line or a diagonal line has definite inside aids
	and outside aids guiding the line.  I know its intuitive
	to want to ride a straight line with equal aids (ie no
	concept of inside/outside) but then a horse is in what I
	think of as 'no man's land' and it is prone to getting wide
	behind and getting 'wormy' on the line.

	I guess what I want to say would get to long, but it
	basically evolves from the concept of inside/outside
	aids.   From this I would want to talk about diagonal
	aids, and how they can be used to maintain/correct
	straightness.  

	One recommendation would be to work on straightness other
	than on the longside - where there is no wall or fence-line
	'supporting' your outside aids - preferably the 1/4 line,
	center line or diagonals.

	Wishing us both luck with straightness!  

	Melinda

	
	

	Often the best timing to apply aids is when the inside hind leg
	is on the ground.  This is true for trot/canter transitions so
	that the next step of the outside hind leg becomes the first
	step of the canter.  Its also true whenever you want the inside 
	hind leg to rise in and under the horse more (leg yielding), or
	even when you want more powerful strides.

	So when is the inside hind leg on the ground?  	If you're posting, 
	you would need to take the wrong diagonal, and apply your leg aids at the 
	moment you sit (which is the ONLY time your able to apply leg aids at the
	posting trot).  This is why trot/canter transition should be ridden from 
	sitting trot, or else in a normal posting trot, you'd be asking for the lead
	at the wrong instant in time.

	When you're sitting the trot, the inside hind is on the ground when you feel
	your inside knee drop down.  The sitting trot is a more effective way to
	ride the trot since it allows the rider the option to apply leg aids 
	at every stride, rather than only every-other stride.

	Hope this helps.  I'm sure people have heard this described differently	
	too and I welcome comments.

	Melinda

   Melinda,

   Thanks for the suggestions.  Now that you mention it, I have noticed that 
   she is more straight at the sitting trot as I can keep her in between my
   legs better.  I think it's probably a mixture of being stiff behind, due to
   age and being stiff (not supple) laterally.  When I am posting to the trot,
   it is much easier for her to fall in with her haunches, or drop her back.
   Hopefully, the more work I do with her at the sitting trot (keeping her
   straight, etc.) will eventually help strengthen her and our posting trot
   should get better.  

   Thanks again,

   Simone 

  Does anyone know of any clinics scheduled for the new year??

  PLs post - Who/When/Where and how to sign up.

  Thanks,

   Simone

    Well, Algiers is finally back again and I've been riding him for about
    a month.  While, overall I am pleased with the job the 2nd trainers
    did and absolutely thrilled to have him back, one problem I am having 
    is that he is very unresponsive to the leg.  When I sent him away, he 
    was very sensitive (too sensitive) all over.  He came back totally 
    insensitive to my legs.  
    
    I have been working on it by giving a normal (light) leg aid and if he 
    doesn't respond, give a sharper aid, supported by a tap with my stick 
    and, in the case of transitions, a voice command.  There is a marked
    improvement in the transitions (except the canter, which I've
    temporarily given up on) and on the left side, but no improvement 
    on the right side.  It doesn't seem like resistance or disobedience.  
    I remember watching him swish his tail when the trainer would ask him to 
    bend to the right.  Now he just ignores the leg all together on that side.
    Twice now its reached a point where I lost my patience and smacked him
    hard with the stick.  Unfortunately, that is all he will respond to,
    which left me smacking repeatedly when going through corners, asking for 
    a couple steps of leg yield to the left, circling to the right, etc. 
    This leaves us both unhappy (I think me more than him) and desn't seem
    to be fixing the basic problem.
    
    The stick I am using makes more noise than anything (although it does
    sting a little with a very hard smack -- I've tried it on myself).  I
    have a dressage whip, but I am concerned about using that because I
    feel it is too severe.  I want to restore his sensitivity and
    responsiveness, not deaden it further than it has been.
    
    I am currently trying to remind him of the aids from the ground, where
    I can literally nudge him into turns of the forehand and sidepasses to
    remind him to yield to pressure on the side.
    
    Does anyone have any other ideas?
    
    Mary
    
    ps the good news is that the 1st, disastrous, trainer accidentally did
    one thing right.  She used "clucking" to go faster, slower, transition,
    stop, breathe, etch.  Now he totally ignores it when people "cluck" to
    their horses or when people trying to "help" me (unsolicited) from the
    ground start clucking!

    
    My only question about using a stick which 'pops' instead of 'stinging'
    is -- is your goal to condition him to sound or to touch?
    
    At least with the dressage whip, a horse can feel a light tap when it
    is applied right behind your leg.  Aren't you trying to condition him
    to be more sensitive to touch?  
    
    Even with some of the most insentitive horses I have ridden, a tap with
    a dressage whip generates a response.  And I haven't had to repeat the 
    tap very often.  Which is worse, clobbering them with a stick that
    makes noise, or tapping with a whip that stings a little and elicits an
    immediate response so that the procedure doesn't have to be repeated
    over and over and over?

    I took 3 days off riding and re-did some groundwork (lunging at canter
    and work in hand with dressage whip), switched to the dressage whip when
    riding, and presto -- instant results.  
    
    Thanks all for suggestions.  Sometimes I get so close to things that I
    lose sight of them.
    
    Mary

    Gosh it's been a while since I've read through this note - with the new
    job, new house, new horse, new state ... aaaaaahhhhhh.
    
    Anyway, I have an odd problem that maybe someone has some insight and
    corrective action for.  My horse grits his teeth.  Not to be confused
    with actively chewing the bit.  He doe's this primarily on the trail 
    when his is starting to get excited.  He also does this in the enclosed
    ring - even on a loose rein.  I know he is a bit on the lazy side 
    and this may be his way to complain about working.  I ride in a loose ring
    snaffle w/a flash.  Is he worrying about his mouth?  He is especially
    strong on the trail and I've had a few out-of-control moments 
    ...but for the most part I've worked on quiet walking and trotting and 
    I do give him a light/loose rein when he is manageable.  He doesn't do 
    this on the lunge line.  Melinda, are you out there?  
    
    Thanks,                    
    
    	Janice and Amadeus
      

	Hi Janice,

	Gee I heard there was some video floating around your old neighborhood
	showing you and Amadeus...  Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to see
	it, although I'm DYING to see this special horse of yours!  

	Most teeth-grinding horses I've known have done it out of nerves.
	You said he grinds when he's excited on the trail.  So it seems
	to fit that he's doing it because he's nervous. 

	What has worked for at least one case I know is first: try to
	combat the nervousness.   But also, treat it in the same
	way you did with your last horse's head tossing... just wait it
	out... and ignore it for the most part.  But like the head tossing,
	don't give-in (ie loosen the rein) every time he does it.  You don't
	want to train him to 'keep up the grinding.'  While keeping contact
	you could pat him and talk to him.  Work on some gentle bending
	exercises to try to relax him.  See if he'll stop if you encourage
	him to lower the base of his neck and stretch out.  Try to soften
	his jaw by wiggling the bit in order to gently massage his mouth.
	Even if the bending, stretching, and bit wigglying doesn't stop the
	grinding, sometimes just getting into a routine might do the trick.   

	Are you able to ride regularly?  When you're working him at least 3-4 
	times a week he may become more secure just from having a 'working 
	routine.' They can relax into a working routine because they think:

	'Oh yeah, just _yesterday_ she rode me and we went around & around, 
	and we did blah blah, blah, and then we _finished_, and everything 
	was ok.'  

	Since you mentioned he was a tad bit on the lazy side in the ring
	(what, a big warmblood be lazy??) then its _possible_ he is
	genuinely bored!  If this is the case, then _entertain_ him!
	Challenge him, keep him thinking, do lots of figures and transitions.
	If this only makes him grind more, then you can assume its nerves.
	But don't let his teeth grinding stop you from doing anything you
	might normally want to do with him.  It will only get better, when
	he does things more routinely.  If you avoid asking him things
	just because he grinds, he won't get a chance to remember how 'Oh,
	yeah, I did that yesterday and it wasn't so bad.'
	

	Then as a last resort, if this doesn't work, and if you must go
	out in public (ie show) you can attempt	to immobilize his jaws, 
	with a continuous caveson.   At home, you can ignore it, and at
	the shows (where he's likely to become more nervous and perhaps 
	do this), you mask it.   Teeth grinding and tongues hanging out
	are masked all the time with tight nosebands..  Its somewhat unfair 
	that horses are	docked so badly for grinding at shows while other 
	horses with equal tension and nervousness may not be docked as badly
	just because they don't show their tension in such a conspicuous way.
	It is possible, that this method is more than a mask, since it may
	actually encourage them to stop altogether.  For that reason it
	might not be a bad idea to school with it on tight at home too.

	Hope this helps.

	- Melinda         p.s. happy 500th dressage note anniversary!

	

	Sadly, I heard an announcement made at the American Concours dressage 
	show that Reiner Klimke was seriously injured in a car accident last 
	week. I've heard no other details other than he was in critical 
	condition.

	Has anyone else heard more information? 
	
	Melinda

	Every winter, dressage riders, trainers and instructors from all
	parts of the country and abroad take their horses and leave their 
	homes behind in persuit of Florida's warmer climate and highly 
	competitive show circuit.  I've been reading about the Florida 
	dressage show circuit for 15+ years in the Chronicle.  It always 
	sounded incredibly luxurious to me to be able to afford the cost 
	of migrating to Florida every winter and competing under the palm 
	trees.  

	After all the mystery and intrigue over what its like going to
	show on the Florida circuit, I finally got a glimpse of it last
	week.  I took some vacation days and went to watch the American
	dressage Concours show in Venice Florida. I thought I'd share some
	of my experience with all the dressage enthusiasts here.

	This show held qualifying classes for USET, Pan Am games, Olympic
	Festival (not to be confused with the Olympics), Young Rider
	team qualifier, as well as Miller qualifier for Grand Prix.   

	I watched some of the Pan Am games qualifier class.  This class
	went on for _four_ days with 79 riders competing in both a Prix
	St George test as well as an Intermediare I test.  Riders representing
	multiple nations competed.  I recognized quite a few NEDA competitors
	and/or horses in this class including Sue Blinks on Index, Susan Jacoma
	on Nightwind, Kris Bobo's Rastinius (Marina Genn riding), Debra
	Weidamier-Dutta and young rider Parker Nichols.    I wasn't able to 
	see but a fraction of the (79 X 2) rides, but what I saw was very 
	exciting.  When I left, Jennifer Miller was leading the PSG with a 
	score of 65.xx %.  

	I watched most of a Grand Prix class on friday with 30 horses
	competing.  Anne Gribbons, Betsy Steiner, Uwe Steiner, Mary Alice 
	Malone, Pam Goodrich, Diana Rankin, as well as many other well known 
	riders were competing.  When I left, Uwe Steiner was leading with a 
	score of 62.xx.
	
	In some ways, all the familiar faces made it seem like I was
	at a New England show.  The photo and saddlery booths were run by the 
	same people who travel the New England circuit.  The judges were
	the same, my instructor was there teaching, and the announcer even 
	sounded familiar!  Ofcourse the major differences were the temperature,
	the palm trees, and the competitiveness.  

	Surely, my glimpse of a Florida show is one of a spectator's fairy-tale
	perspective.   I know behind the scenes its hard work, dedication
        and some level of sacrifice.  Overall, I found it inspirational to watch
	such good riding and see so many high quality performances.  It was
	the lift I needed to get through the rest of winter riding in New 
	England.      

	Melinda




	
	

	
	




	





	
	
	
					



	
	
		
	

Melinda,

Thanks for letting us know what's going on down there! Sounds like it was a
really good trip....

Linda

     <<< Note 10.476 by DECWET::DADDAMIO "Testing proves testing works" >>>
                            -< More on serpentines >-

    Hi Jan,

   I saw the article that your husband John wrote for this month's
   Dressage and CT. This Alexander Technique sounds intriguing, can
   you explain more about it? (Maybe a separate topic?)
   
   Also there was a blurb in this issue about how the training level
   serpentine should be ridden. Apparently this issue has caused a 
   lot of confusion. The horse should NOT be perpendicular to the
   center line when crossing it. I'll try to remember to post the 
   details tomorrow.

   K.

    Kiirja,
    
       When I get a chance I'll start a topic on it.  We haven't received
    our copy of Dressage and CT yet.  We were also the couple referred to
    in the article on Dr. Van Schaik.
    
    						Jan

  Here is Charles DeKunffy's assessment of the serpentine in
  the new Training Level Test 2:

 "Movement 3 is a welcome serpentine for the logical needs of
  the horse. However it is not drawn well in the illustration,
  and in the future, the drawing should be revised and corrected;
  the crossing of the centerline should not be perpendicular,
  or near it, but rather diagonal enough to allow flowing 
  rhythmic movement with easy passage through the straight episodes
  before rebending in the other direction. Judging the movement
  with precision will be difficult."

  [From the March 1991 issue of Dresage and CT]

  

    Someone have subscription info on Dresage and CT ?
    Thanks,

  

                      <<< Note 10.507 by KAHALA::HOLMES >>>


>    Someone have subscription info on Dresage and CT ?

   I know I've already posted this in the magazines topic, 
   but here goes anyway: 

     Dressage and CT 
     211 West Main St
     New London Ohio 44851

     Rates: 1 year $22
            2 years $38

     They will take Visa and MC, but there is no phone number for
     credit card orders.

    Hi to all,
    
    FYI, there are a couple of clinics coming up at Token Whey Farm
    in Andover MA.  They are Jr/Yr clinics, but are also open to 
    adults.  The first clinic is April 14th, with Volker Brommann,
    $30.00 (NEDA members), the second is on May 19th, with Lois
    Yukins, also $30.00 (NEDA members).
    
    Please note, Jr/Yr's have first priority, then adults. There is
    a generic clinic form in this month's TIP. Or you could call
    Keith Angstadt at TWF 508-664-0494.
    
    Deb 

  Hello everyone-

   I thought I might spark a little talk regarding conformation, breeds and
   dressage.

   Clearly, some horses/breeds are simply put together in a manner that makes
   it easier for them to perform in dressage.  However, how many of us have a
   horse with perfect dressage conformation??  Not many, I'll bet.

   I am wondering what kinds of conformation faults your horses have and what
   you do in terms of training to compensate for, or overcome them.

   For instance...

    I am now riding a very green Quarter Horse - 16.3h (big guy) hefty build.
    He has a very large body and legs that are a tad short for him  He also
    has long pasterns (especially behind).  

    Due to his conformation short comings, (for dressage - he would make a good
    western pleasure horse if he was allowed to move the way he wants to move)
    he has trouble bringing his hind end under himself and is tight in his back.
    As with many stocky QH types, he has a short back too.  

    Since he is green and this is his first experience with dressage schooling, 
    I am sure that much of the conditioning he is recieving and will continue
    to receive will only help to strengthen him and to a certain extent change
    his musculature some (ie: development of his top line).

    Objectives we are trying to meet are:

         o encouraging a long and relaxed reach into the bridle - lots of leg
            and half halts when he wants to jig (at walk) or tug at bit.

         o Relaxing his back and getting him to collect himself more from 
           behind

         o Teaching him to think FOWARD FOWARD FOWARD


    Questions:

     Do you think that some cavaletti work would help him use his hind end
     more?  What other exercises would benefit this type of horse?  
  
    

	re: -1

	I know good conformation contributes to the likely-hood
	of a nice dressage performer. But how many times have each
	of us seen a horse that, just standing there, looks questionable,
	but when its doing its dressage work, it looks sensational?

	Sometimes it seems like the laws of physics don't apply to
	some horses.  

	Melinda

	
	

  

    "Presence" - Yes, I go along with this because I used to
    watch those at the dressage barn work their horses......
    A few of these horses were downright ugly.  But, this "magical"
    transformation would take place when the horse was worked.
    The "Beast" became "Beauty".  
    
    
    Lynne

    Conformation is less important than how the horse uses what he/she has,
    but still has a bearing on problems that the horse needs to overcome. 
    Attitude toward being ridden, training, and life in general are
    critical.  (This is one reason why I have been so picky about finding
    a well-managed barn...the most diligent efforts on the part of the 
    trainer will be undermined if the horse is not happy in his/her home.)
    
    The best way to overcome physical problems presented by a horse's
    conformational weaknesses is to train slowly and be very forgiving.  Be
    aware of what the difficulties the horses conformation cause in
    advance, and then prepare those areas carefully.
    
    For example, my horse is long in the back.  Long back horses have a
    hard time coordinating their front and hind ends (moving "in one
    piece") and therefore are prone to a 4-beat canter.  An ounce of
    prevention is most definitely worth a pound of cure here, so I have done
    very little canter work with him indoors this winter...just asking for
    the transition and letting him canter around once or so.  And beyond
    maintaining 3 beats, I've made no other demands...I've let him go a bit
    (and to the right, a lot) crooked, a little bit fast and on his forehard, 
    and not asked for more than 3/4s of a circle (which I used only to obtain 
    some sort of a downward transition).  
    
    The time I've spent restraining myself is now paying off.  His back has 
    strengthened slowly without losing its flexibility (the up-side of a 
    long back).  Now that we can work outside in good footing, I'm working 
    on large circles (30m), straightening him and slowly him down to a true 
    working canter.  And his canter has remained quite pure throughout...only 
    once (3 months ago) did he 4 beat (for 2 strides).  I expect that within 
    a few weeks he will be solid on 20m circles and smaller, now that the 
    foundation is laid.
    
    Mary

I have recently been thinking about making
some changes in my "horse situation."  I currently
half-lease a horse, but I have been looking for
a new instructor, maybe a new horse and a new
barn.  

Here's an idea I'd like to present to the
notesfile audience:

Due to the difficulty I've had in getting access
to the kind of instructor who can meet my needs,
I've been speculating about the possibility of
starting or joining some sort of "support group"
or "ongoing workshop" in which riders could help
each other on a regular basis.  

For example, I had a writing (yes, that's
W-R-I-T-I-N-G, not R-I-D-I-N-G) teacher who was so 
serious about improving her writing ability that she
met with two others on a regular basis to critique
each others' work and trade suggestions and ideas. 
They were each committed to writing a certain amount
between their meetings so they would have material
to work on.  I was impressed by this, and I always
wondered how it would work applied to riding.

I'd like to find other people with which to take turns 
watching each other ride, reporting to each other
what we want to know about our position and the
horse's position.  Or even take still photos (I don't
have video equipment) of each other for analysis.

I'm not suggesting that I want to do this totally in
place of lessons from an expert.  It's an interim
measure between formal lessons and/or until I find a
more suitable instructor.

The kind of personalities that would be most compatible
to work with me are open-minded, flexible, and creative.
I've worked for years to develop these qualities in myself.
What you already know is less important to me than
what you are open to learning.

Now, I'm sure that some people out there are probably
already doing this sort of thing informally with their
friends, but I'm not personally in touch with anyone
who is.

Are any of you out there interested in doing something
like this?  If so, where are you?  I live in Medway, 
Massachusetts.

Michelle

    I don't live near there, nor do I ride dressage, but I think it's
    a fantastic idea! Good luck with it, and keep us posted if you can
    get it going!
    

    Ditto!  But it sounds like a great idea!
    
    Lynne

    We do this every Friday nite.  It's very informal, sometimes there is
    10 of us and other times there is only two.  The more experienced
    riders help out the less experienced ones.  We play games, and have
    mini-judging sessions.  I have found this to be an excellent learning 
    tool aside from the lessons.  And it's FUN!!!!
    
    I'm not sure how many people are interested in dressage up there, we
    usually ride english(hunt seat?) and western, but I suspect many of the
    bending excersises come from a dressage foundation.  There are lessons
    available (all types).  If you'd like more information, you can contact
    me off line @ FRAGLE::PELUSO
    
    Michele

	Re: .515

	Some riders at our barn spend about 2 Sundays a month playing
	"drill team."

	About 4-8 people get together and pretend that they are doing a
	drill team type ride... They have a ball! There are all levels of
	different levels of riding ability and it seems that everyone has fun... 

	Everyone takes turns being a leader and determining the "tests"... 
	Those who are more experienced are strategically placed among those
	who are less experienced and help them out.

	Its also been great for helping people get their figures more
	accurate; nothings helps that better than seeing a sea of horses
	in front of you ;^)

	Of course, after the ride, you need to have coffee, tea, pastry,
	etc. ;^)

    This topic has been 'quiet' for awhile.  I guess everyone is
    busy getting ready to show? 
    
    Deb 
    

    
    Hi,
    I'm busy getting my mare ready to retire from showing. It's much more
    fun to ride without the pressure to be good at showing. She did 15
    flying changes every stride without a mistake on Sat. And we are
    exercising the Passage. You can notice what it should be if you are
    watching. Hihi.
    Unfortunately it's snowing today so she can't be on the paddok and has
    to do some more exercises.
    
    Renate

    Hello Renate, 
    
    How old is your mare? 
    
    Snow? Too bad, I noticed you're moving to Florida? What a 
    difference that will be. It is basically always warm there
    so you won't have to worry about the snow, just the heat--
    and bugs!
    
    Deb

    Hi Deb,
    
    are you still riding your mare dressage? What level is she?
    It was my dream to go on with riding my mare to 18 or 20. 
    I hope she'll be happy without work, beeing on a paddock.
    
    Renate

    Has anyone out there from the UK ridden/seen the new BHS Dressage
    test for Prelim 9, which is new this year?  If anyone has then I
    would be interested to hear about what they think of it etc.  I have
    sent away to the BHS for my copy but I have not received it yet.
    
    Wendy

    re:10.500 - Yes, I am finally responding to it.  
    
    	Hi Melinda, I finally got my arena graded to an acceptable
    consistency and have been riding 4-5 days per week.  Weather is 
    always permitting :*}.  His grinding has stopped as his confidence
    has increased.  I haven't showed him yet, the season is done here.
    I rarely work in the office - it's tough getting time to read the
    notesfile.
    
    BTW - Did Reiner Klimke recover ok?  I haven't heard anything more.
    

    I wondered, too, about Reiner Klimke, but saw an item in this week's
    Chronicle about a clinic he gave in California at the end of March, so
    I guess he must be OK!
    
    -ellie

    Hi Melinda & Ellie & all of you others!
    I haven't been reading this (or any!) notesfile for quite a long time.
    When I looked trough what I've missed, I found that some of you are
    worried about Reiner Klimke, who seemed to have had an accident.
    Well, he's fit for fight now. During the World Cup competitions in
    Gothenburg, Sweden ( showjumping ) there was a dressage class, too.
    It was Volvo Dressage Invitational 1991, GRAN PRIX K�R PAS DE DEUX.
    It goes upon everything I've seen in that way! Reiner Klimke and his
    son Michael were among the competitors. Reiner K. was riding ahorse
    named Campari and Michael rode Rendez-vous. But due to my own opinion
    they were not the best couple. I think the absolutley best were our own
    Louise Nathorst/Chriac and Kyra Kyrklund/Matador ( from Finland )!
    But that's not really objective, I love both thoose horse
    This class was not judged by real dressage judges, it was two artits
    ( a composer and a ex ballerina, who now is a corographer).
    Here is a list of the results:
    1. Sven Rothenberger/Petit Prince-Monica Theodorescu/Lecicon FRG 65,0p
    
    2.Louise Nathorst/Chirac-Kyra Kyrklund/Matador SWE 64,8p
    
    3.Jenni Loriston-Clarke/Dutch Gold-Anni MacDonald-Hall/Floriano GBR
    63,7p
    
    4.Anky van Grunsven/Prisco-Bert Rutten/Clavcimbal NETHL 62,0
    
    5.Reiner Klimke/Campari-Michael K./Rendez-vous 60,3p
    
    6.Ernst Bachinger/Honeymoon-Eva maria Bachinger/Wenzel 56,0p
    
    I have to rush now, tell you more about it tomorrow.
    
    Bye for now
       
    Eva H                

    Hi Eva:
    
    So glad you reported.  I took a clinic from Louise a few years ago and
    I've wondered how she is and what she was doing.  It was undoubtedly
    the best clinic I've ever attended and I'm so glad to hear she's
    actively competing.  Her name doesn't make the American papers
    at all, so please report to let us know what else she's doing.
    
    That was such a pleasant surprise -- thanks again,.
    
    Dawn

    Hi again! Sorry it took so long for me to write back, we have had some
    national holidays & then cought a cold! But now I'm back! When Louise
    Nathorst/Chirac did perform in Gothenburg last month, it was the last
    performance they did together. Chirac is from now on breeding stallion.
    After the k�r, they come in to the arena and the music played " That
    what friends are for ", they took his saddle off & he got a crown of
    flowers roun the neck. The audience stood up and applauded, some was
    even crying! He is really a marvelous horse!
    
    
    

    My impression of the spanish or classical school, is that most of the
    control is done with the seat and legs, and that the hands are very
    gentle.  The most noted teacher of this school recently was Nuno
    Oliveira, and he would sometimes replace the bit, bridle and reins with
    a piece of twine only, to show how the horse was being controlled
    without any kind of force.  This was told to me, I never saw him
    myself.

    Ed,
    
       I agree with .531.  Most of the control is with seat and legs, which
    is also not really forceful if the horse is properly trained.  I went
    to an Oliveira clinic and he only uses fingers when using the reins and
    had less contact with the reins than most other people.  My former
    instructor (Dr. Van Schaik) taught us to have contact with straight
    reins, but the contact was very light, most aids were via seat and
    legs.  You can get a good idea on classical schooling from books by
    Oliveira, Dr. Van Schaik, Alois Podhajsky (sp? - former director of the
    Spanish Riding School), and Charles DeKunfy.  All are proponents of
    classical dressage.
    
       One reason I am told that the Germans are so strong with their
    horses is that the big warmbloods aren't as sensitive as hot blooded
    horses and they need strong aids.  I don't really know if this is true,
    but I have seen several take all kinds of abuse from inexperienced
    riders (jerking hands, spurs hitting them each stride, etc) and they
    don't even blink.  They just go on doing what they're supposed to.  I
    think most of the people mentioned above tend to work with more with
    hot blooded horses.  In my opinion, you should be able to do classical
    dressage with warmbloods, too, regardless of their supposed
    sensitivity.
    
    						Jan

    re: last 
    Maybe this is a local thing? Here in PA at the approved shows I have
    attended, the quiet riders win. Yanking will get you an insufficent
    score.
    Sandy
    

    Ed,
    
       As far as I'm concerned, there is no difference in training using
    the classical method.  The aids are mostly seat and legs with light use
    of the hands.  I have been told that the aids should be as invisible as
    possible (with a younger horse they will be more visible, but not a lot
    more forceful).  The biggest difference I've noticed in training is
    that with a green horse you use a lot more direct rein and leading
    rein and with a more schooled horse you use more indirect rein or
    direct with a smaller indication of what you want.
    
       I don't know how the current trend of "competition dressage" got
    started.  I have heard various comments on classical dressage vs
    "competition dressage".  Some people think that most judges wouldn't
    know what to do with someone who rode classical dressage in a test
    (except those that teach that way).  Others feel that classical is the
    way it should be done and judges should reward for it (if they can
    recognize it :-).  My instructors have said ride in the classical style
    and don't worry about the marks if I want to compete.  I have gotten
    both good and bad marks (some deserved in both cases) and have won
    classes and come in last.  I'm also limited by my horse who is small,
    doesn't have flashy gaits and is of an unfashionable breed for
    dressage.
    
       I have heard of judges marking people down because they aren't
    "working hard enough" (i.e. aids aren't visible enough to the judge) or
    their position is "too pretty".  If you run across these, you can
    either ignore them, or try not to ride for them again.  I do think
    there is a double standard in the judging with a lot of judges looking
    for how hard you are working.  Maybe the more of us that ride classical
    with less visible aids, the more they will realize that it can be done.
    I've only been showing since the early-to-mid-80's and it was
    discouraging for me at first, but now I've more or less accepted it and
    am pleasantly surprised by judges that sometimes do reward classical
    riding.
    
       The one problem I have had is instructors that don't teach certain
    movements and believe they shouldn't be in tests, but the movements are
    in tests I want to perform.  In those cases, they will tell me how to
    ride the movement and suggest that I practice it infrequently,
    preferably during warm-up before the test.  I did this once with
    leg-yielding and got 7's and 6's for them.  Sure surprised me!
    
       I don't know how long you've been showing, but it is very
    discouraging and you have to decide to go with the fad or do what you
    think is correct.  I think a lot of the high scores are a result of a
    very nice horse and are given inspite of the rider's performance (but I
    bet you would be able to find counterexamples, too).
    
    						Jan

    Ed,
    
    What I have learned is to ride the horse from the seat and legs and be
    very quiet with the hands.  Neither the French school nor the German
    school teaches to ride from the mouth or the head/neck, but rather to
    "rdie your horse forward and hold it straight."  With the 1st emphasis
    on free, forward movement.  The French school emphasizes brilliance
    over absolute precision, whereas the German school emphasizes precision
    over brilliance.  
    
    Part of what you are seeing could be because, excepting the very good
    warmbloods, as mentioned previously, they tend to be less sensitive. 
    Also, because of their size, the work is very difficult for them... a
    20m circle (not to mention 6m volte) is much smaller to a 17 hand/1600+
    lb horse than a 16 hand 1200 lb horse. 
    
    However, part of what you are seeing is bad riding.  It is due partly 
    to the fact that there are very few truly good trainers or teachers in this
    area, and partly because Americans want it and they want it now (ie 
    lack the patience to train correctly/without force).
    
    They may score well in this country, but how do they fare in
    international competition?  As I recall, just a couple of Olympics ago 
    we came in behind some 3rd world countries!

	What is suppose to be the difference between classical
	dressage and competition dressage?  Some of the examples
	you gave Ed, about forceful riders being rewarded with higher
	scores, just makes me think the judging was bad.  I'm not one
	to criticize judging, since I think I've seen fairness
	in my travels.  At least, when I thought I did something poorly,
	it usually got reflected and vice-versa.  I've only once given a
	bad report on a judges evaluation form.  

	I understand that while one judge might see a movement as a 7,
	another might think its a 5.   I had three judges scoring my rides
	at Saratoga last weekend, and it was interesting to see the range
	of scores for the same movements.   But, largely, the judging
	was consistent.  There were just 'some' movements where one judge
	saw a '4' for example, and another saw a '6' or else one would
	see a '5' and another a '7' for the same thing.   I don't feel
	badly about it, its just that I choose not to change what I'm doing
	when there's some discrepancy.  I go at it the way my instructor
	has told me.  When all three "I" rated judges saw the same score, 
	I figured the verdict was pretty clear and I will listen to that
	and I'll talk about it with my instructor. I like to watch my ride 
	on video after the show and follow along with my test, looking at the 
	judges comments.  I usually can see all the things they point out and 
	I usually agree with them.  I caught an error of one judge who thought
	I'd miscounted my zig-zags when on video I had my own proof that I did
	in fact count them right. I can understand how difficult it must be to
	judge, and I respect them for their abilities.  The truth is, I
	find it mind boggling to count some of the stuff, so I imagine its
	a little mind boggling to judge it accurately all the time too.
	
	Melinda	
	

    My guess may be unpopular and is definitely cynical, but I can think 
    of one reason the Germanic style has prevailed in recent years -- $$$!
    
    1.  I remember Fritz Stecken (one of the old masters) stating
    emphatically that the thorobred is the best horse for dressage and that
    we have the best horses in the world right in this country.  Thorobreds
    and horses with much t-bred or arab blood are best for the lighter,
    more brilliant school (being naturally light and brilliant).  This is
    problematic in two ways:
    
    a.  to ride a t-bred for dressage and/or to ride the French school, you 
    must be a very, very good rider...you can't fake sensitivity.  A
    sensitive horse cannot or will not perform without a very quiet,
    sensitive rider.  
    
    ***This is not something that you can buy...it is only acquired by long, 
    hard hours of disciplined work and it can take years to acquire just the 
    foundation (a good seat).
    
    b.  quality t-breds are readily available at affordable prices.
    
    On the other hand:
    
    a.  the Germanic school favors warmbloods, who, because of their
    quieter, large size and quiet temperaments, need to be "held together"
    a bit.
    
    b.  for the same reasons, these horses are also less effected by bad 
    riding, making upper level dressage something much more buyable.  
    
    ***pushing the Germanic school made winning in dressage something that
    could be bought for big bucks.
    
    There was a lot more money to be made by importing warmbloods and
    selling them at premium prices to wealthy people than by training 
    t-breds, which we already have.
    
    Before the warmblood fad, which seems to have started in the late 60s
    or early 70s or so, I think there were many more t-breds competing 
    successfully at the upper levels.  If you look at the photos in Seunig's 
    horsemanship, you see a lot of t-breds back in the 40s and 50s.  The 
    Olympic silver medalist in 64 was Harry Boldt on a little anglo-arab.
    
    
    Mary 

    re -1
    
    Yes, yes, yes, yes!!  I "grew up" with Seunig's book, and with t-breds.
    I agree that thorobreds are the ultimate dressage horse, which used to
    be the common view.  Someone, I forget who, is quoted in Seunig's book
    as saying "For my own use, I train only thorobreds".  Compared to a
    thorobred, anything else is like riding a log.  But what's popular now
    is a horse that looks like it was bred to carry a knight wearing 300
    lbs of armor.  I had a friend, in fact, who took her plowing horse to a
    clinic, and the clilician was thrilled at the horse.  It had the kind
    of action he loved, i.e. it moved with short, high strides, covering
    very little ground -- much like a giant shetland pony.  Yes, it used to
    be that this was a sign of a well-schooled horse, when the horse in
    question used to be a thorobred.  It meant that the horse with
    naturally long and low gaits had become flexible enough to exhibit a
    carriage at the other end of the spectrum.  But if you are riding a
    horse that moves like that naturally, you haven't proven anything!  The
    test of this type of horse would be to go in a long, low frame.  Don't
    see much of that around....
    
    -ellie

    re .541
    
    Not sure what you mean by "low and pokey" but that;s just how my
    thorobreds look when they are not excited.  They go in a loose frame,
    heads fairly low, strides long and low.  When they get excited, then I
    see the "classic" dressage frame: hindquarters engaged, neck arched,
    action higher in front.  I'm speaking of how they look in the paddock,
    under their own steam....
    
    -e

    A 5-year old crammed into the "FEI level mold" has been rushed.  There
    are at most a very few super-talented trainers in the world that can 
    take a super-talented horse from green to FEI in 3 years. 
    Professionals tend to rush their horses because they're playing a game
    of time...they have to move the horse up as quickly as possible in
    order to sell for maximum dollars with minimum investment while the horse 
    is seen as a prospective grand prix horse and before he has either missed 
    the boat, proved that he can't quite make it, or gotten injured or soured.
    
    Frizt Stecken told us he had had one horse that went to Grand Prix in 3
    years.  Your average, talented horse trained by your average, talented
    rider takes more like 7 to get there and another year or two to get
    good at it.  That's why the standard time for training was 1 year per 
    level (prior to the intro of training level and Intermediare II).
    
    I think I've read that at the Spanish riding school they expect to take 
    7 years before starting work on the airs above the ground.
    
    I'm not sure what you mean by saying that there are two camps...yes and
    no.  Any horse of normal conformation and temperament (or perhaps I
    should say "not too abnormal" can do dressage properly.  They all will
    end up somewhat different because they bring different strengths and
    weaknesses of conformation and temperament.  You must pick which school
    you prefer, and also which you are most suited for, and go for that. 
    For example, if you weigh 300 pounds, you may do yourself (and horses
    everywhere!) a favor by sticking to warmbloods and the German school.

    Ok, I'll take a stab at some of these...
    
    First, I haven't read dressage history for a long time, but somehow I
    seem to remember that the different schools evolved pretty much
    concurrently.  Maybe I'm not going far enough back, but I thought you
    basically had the Spanish Riding School and Saumur...both started for
    the calvary.  Unless, of course, you go way back to Xenophen and the
    Greeks...but I think that's a little further back than you mean.
    
    I tend to think that the different schools evolved because of the 
    difference in the types of horses used and the different cultures they 
    grew in.  If you look at all of the arts you will find how this
    relates.  For example, French music, French art and French dance all
    lean towards brilliance and sensuality, whereas German music and art
    lean towards mathematical precision.  Looking within a specific
    period, say the Romantic, I can hear (actually, feel) the difference in
    composition when I am playing.
    
    As to your last point about some horses not being right for dressage, I
    would say that you have to look at what the real purpose of dressage
    is.  First of all, translated loosely from the French, dressage means
    "training" as in "education."  All education falls into the realm of
    dressage...its a question, however, of systematic education.
    
    Contrary to what Carol Lavell said in her recent article in I forget
    which horsey rag ("Well, the purpose of dressage is to get to Grand
    Prix, isn't it?"  hence the push/pull, grand prix at any price
    approach) I think that the purpose of dressage is to make a better
    riding horse by making him/her more supple and obedient.  This is 
    not an original thought -- I've stolen it from the modern masters.
    
    Correct dressage can help all horses.  Not all horses are suitable for
    competition (ie, you can compete, but don't expect to do well with
    them). Due to the exacting demands made on the horses physique and
    temperament, not all horses are capable of going beyond 1st level 
    (it used to be 2nd, but they've made the tests tougher). But 1st level 
    provides a solid foundation for the horse in any specialty...be it trail 
    horse, pleasure horse, jumper, hunter, etc.
    
    Remember, too, that terms such as calm are relative...what is calm for, 
    say, an arab, could be borderline insane for, say, a holsteiner.  The
    point is that the excitable horse is made less excitable and the dull 
    horse is made less lazy.  There is a wide range that still fits within 
    the realm of calm.  
    
    An arab with a good dressage foundation will end up very different from 
    an arab trained for English Pleasure.  Taking my guy for example, he is 
    a little long, and therefore weak, in the back.  Had he been put directly 
    into English Pleasure my guess is that, based on how he looked his first 
    few months under a rider, he would have ended up swaybacked and his gaits 
    -- particularly canter -- could have ended up impure. Dressage schooling 
    has strengthened his back, which no longer sags under my weight, and 
    re-established the front-end/hind-end connection.  His gaits have literally
    become better under saddle than they are when he is free.  Were still
    working the obedience issues (sigh ;-)
    
    Mary
    
    In other words, things haven't changed.  There are still multiple
    schools and the Germanic doesn't always win...especially in the musical
    kur.

	Great discussion going on!  I have to put in more 2 cents regarding
	the t-bred vs warmblood discussion a few back...

	I know there are plenty of talented and very suitable t-bred
	dressage horses available.  However, the warmblood popularity
	emerged in the 70's for more reasons that $$, although I admit
	all Americans seem intrigued by European imports and $$ does have
	a lot to do with it.

	I'm no TB expert, but I know the driving influence of selective
	TB breeding is to get one that will run fast, particularly at
	an early age.  European warmblood breeds are bred for sport horse 
	performance.  Do you want to buy a race car or do you want a sport 
	sedan?   This is not to say that the race car can't _do_ what the 
	sport sedan does, its just that it wasn't designed to do it. 
	Warmbloods have strict controls on their eligibility for breeding which 
	includes movement, soundness, temperament, conformation and sport
	horse performance.  Hanovarians have a 100 day stallion test, for
	example.

	I think warmbloods became popular in this country because Americans 
	thought they discovered sounder, more consistent & reliable 
	temperaments, longer living, bigger moving & more rhythmical moving 
	horses abroad.   I personally do prefer a warmblood based on my
	experiences with unsound TB's.  Also, I think you spend half of your
	time trying to calm down and relax a TB, when warmbloods are often
	easy going and relaxed at the start of their session.  I recognize
	the fact that TB's can be more enjoyable to ride, since they're often 
	more light & responsive	to the aids.   I 

	Women are the most frequent buyers of dressage horses, however
	many American women discovered (and still are) that they don't 
	have the strength of seat or leg to get these giant warmblood beasts to
	carry themselves.   European breeders are responding to this and
	have introduced more American TB blood into their breeding programs.

	So there, we've run full circle now!

	
	Melinda	
	
	

	
	

	

	

    I agree with Mary (.545?) in that the purpose of dressage is to train
    the horse properly.  Any horse can do dressage, but some can do the
    movements better than others and some can't do all of the movements.  I
    don't think that all horses can make it to Grand Prix even with proper
    training - many have limits imposed by their conformation.
    
    One reason we got into dressage was to help our first Morgan mare.  She
    is slightly higher in the croup than the withers and was very heavy on
    the forehand.  She would constantly hit her front feet with her hind
    feet and pull off her front shoes.  We had to turn her out with bell
    boots in front so she wouldn't cut her front heels up (also rode her in
    them).  After many years of training she has shifted her weight more to
    her hindquarters, not only when being ridden, but all the time!  She can 
    actually do some collection under saddle.  But more important, she
    doesn't cut up her front heels any more and hasn't pulled off a front
    shoe in ages.
    
    I think a lot of people doing so called "competitive dressage" are
    doing it to get young horses performing at higher levels in less time
    than it takes training them in the classical method.  However this does
    show in their performance.  I have seen quite a few horses doing
    passage and piaffe without shifting their weight onto their
    hindquarters, but instead hollowing their backs.  They are going
    through the motion, but are not doing it properly.  In my opinion they
    were probably not schooled properly in the lower levels or taught to
    collect by shifting their weight onto their hindquarters.
    
    						Jan

    What's natural is pretty much how a fit horse moves when free and
    playing.  As soon as you slap 100+ pounds on the horses back, stick 
    a piece of metal in his mouth and start telling him where to go and 
    at which pace, you interfere both physically and psychologically with 
    his movement and carriage.  Your weight throws him off balance and makes 
    his back uncomfortable, so he hollows out his back or sags under the 
    weight, or he stiffens his back if its strong.  The bit makes him a little 
    afraid (face it...gums are about the most sensitive tissue we've got.  
    think how much it hurts if you accidentally bite your tongue or gum just 
    a little), so he either overbends his neck or hollows out his neck to 
    get away from the discomfort.
    
    The purpose of dressage is to restore the natural movement and carriage
    of your horse while under a rider and to reach a point where he
    responds to your request with as little thought as if it was his own
    idea.
    
    Last year I watched my arab constantly while playing and on the lunge
    (at which he is nearly as free as when playing since he's been lunged
    so long it seems 'natural' to him).  He naturally did beautiful
    collections and extensions at the trot and canter, pirouettes, passage,
    piaffe, and flying changes (down to one-time changes when he was on the
    lunge once!).  Sometimes in the pasture he would stretch down long and
    low (I have photos of this) in a nice training/1st level lengthening. 
    He also started trying to learn levade last spring (really...he reared
    a couple times, then started trying to do low -- 35 degree --
    elevations and hold them.  he kept toppling forward and finally got
    really ticked off looking and took off bucking) and again this winter
    while on cross-ties (was he a lippizaner in a former life? ;-)
    Sometimes while trotting around he would hollow out and leave his hind 
    end behind, but not as often as he would use his back and hind end.
    
    After he was first backed, he started sagging and then hollowing out 
    terribly.  His whole comformation changed and it looked for a long 
    time as if his hind end had gotten much higher than his front end. 
    This pushed his hind end out behind him, where it was dragged along. 
    ***Even when he was turned out!***  His muscles were being stretched 
    in a way that affected his entire carriage and appearance even when 
    just standing on cross-ties.
    
    With much schooling and conditioning, he is finally getting back his 
    natural movement and carriage under a rider (at least he was until I 
    totally screwed up the works this week -- but that's another story :-(.  
    As a result, even when he is turned out his movement is now improving to 
    where it was before he was backed.
    
    Mary  

	Natural is what is natural for the breed.  I enjoy watching Lendon
	Gray compete with a wide range of breeds from connemara's to Arabs
	to TB's to Warmbloods.  Each animal has something unique about
	their movement which I find really interesting and enjoyable to watch.

	The best way I can think of 'whats natural' for each horse, is when
	it looks forward, free and rhythmical.   It looks unnatural as soon as
	the movement gets tight (as soon as there is tension).   

	I currently have a pretty wide range of dressage horses in my barn.
	There is a Percheron Cross, who is _definitely_ a cold blood.
	Then I have some warmbloods, and a hot blood (Arab).   I get a kick
	out of riding the cold blood back-to-back with the hot blood.   

	I think the judging I've seen is respectful of 'natural qualities'
	of different breeds.  Lendon Gray placed a close 2nd to Michael
	Poulin last weekend with a 68% at PSG on the connemara 'Last Seen,' who
	is a relative of 'Seldom Seen.'   My student was in the top of her
	first level class riding our cold blooded Percheron Cross against
	a large class w/ mostly warmbloods.  I think its close-minded to think
	that judges are all biased in favor of warmbloods or that warmbloods
	'set the standard' of what is natural.   We all know there are enough 
	cases when the Appy or Morgan or Arab or TB or Percheron/Cross 	
	out-performs a warmblood.  

	Some horses are born with breath taking movement and outstanding
	conformation for dressage along with great minds.   When two breeds
	are performing near their peak with absolute precision and elegance,
	then the judge has to choose which one is the greatest art form.
	
	In the case of the Grand Prix Special at Saratoga last weekend, 
	it didn't take a spectator w/dressage expertise to know that Gifted
	out-performed everyone. He won the the class with a 70%.

	Melinda



	

	

I recommend the videotape "Selecting Your Dressage Horse"
by Hilda Gurney for more (and beautifully "illustrated")
points of view about how breed and conformation affect 
a horse's ability to do dressage.  It's really great to
hear her opinion, and then immediately see a video example
showing exactly what she is talking about.

She mentions that a lot of racehorses (TB and QH) use their
legs without using their backs, and that probably makes them 
fast, but doesn't make them as talented for dressage.

She also says that temperament is the most important characteristic.
Would some of you say she is incapable of managing a hot-blooded 
horse?  (She described Keen as having a tendency to be "explosive."
She also described him as the only TB she'd found who
was "built for dressage.")

For myself, even if I never ride or own a warmblood, I still 
want to learn more about the ideal conformation for dressage.  
How could I fail to learn something by observing the warmbloods
that have been bred with dressage in mind?

	If anyone has copies of the new FEI tests which became effective
	June 1st, could you please let me know.   I will be placing my
	order for them with the AHSA but I'd like to get them as soon as
	possible, (the AHSA sometimes takes a week before they open
	their mail).

	I'm very nervous that I'm 3 weeks away from my next show and
	I don't know the test.

	Thanks very much,

	Melinda

   Re: note .533

   Ed, I am wondering whether you are seeing these "forceful" riders at 
   dressage only competitions, or as part of one phase at combined training
   events, or both.  

   Maybe others have also noticed this...

   The quality of dressage (overall) at most NEDA, etc. shows is much higher
   in general than dressage tests performed at combined training events.

   Many times at a combined training event, a big warmblood will be way out 
   front after dressage and fall back after stopping X-country or knocking 
   something down in stadium.  The quarter horses and thoroughbreds who had
   mediocre dressage scores often move up in their classes after going clean
   through the jumping phases.  In combined training, there is more than one
   discipline to work on.  This leaves less time for dressage.  

   If you see a rider being forceful, it usually indicates resistance on the 
   horses part (whether the rider is causing it or not).  This should be pen-
   alized.   

   I agree with the other replies in that the judging must have been less than
   great, or no one rode well that day.

   I think that each of us is probably the best judge regarding how our own 
   horses perform.  I think that most horses put up with forceful riders for
   only so long, then they get pissed off and shut down.  I feel that most 
   would agree that you get a much more out of any horse by using relaxed, yet
   firm, clear aids.  Don't half halt unless you need to, or anticipate some
   sort of resistance.  If your horse is relaxed and moving in a nice frame, 
   leave his head alone.  Too many people are too concerned with the front end
   ie: headset, when they should be concerned with engaging the hindend first
   and using half-halts and outside rein as containment for the energy produced
   behind.

   Simone

   

    Ed, This reminds me of reading somewhere that "Lippizaners are not
    suitable for dressage."  I can't remember where I read this, but it was
    an article in one of the reputable rags.  Probably in my previous 
    incarnation (ie more than 5 years ago). 
    
    What this attitude boils down to is, if you want to go to the Olympics 
    (or successfully compete in open competition) you'd better be on a 
    warmblood or a horse that looks and moves like a warmblood.
    
    The feeling I've gotten in the last couple years (which is reinforced
    in some of the notes here) is that this attitude is changing a bit. 
    And judges who previously automatically scored horses down because they 
    were the "wrong" breed for dressage are being re-educated.
    
    Just about any breed of horse can do dressage, and talented individuals 
    within those breeds can get to the upper levels.  (I say just about any
    breed, because certain breeds, such as Paso Finos, do not have 3 pure 
    gaits, which are your minimum requirement.) 
    
    Finding a good trainer who can work with the attributes of the different 
    breeds is real tough, but hopefully not impossible.
    
    Mary

	Re: reply .555:

>	Finding a good trainer who can work with the attributes of the different
>	breeds is real tough, but hopefully not impossible.

	Sigh, unfortunately, what you have said is all too true... 

  Don't think I'm too wierd, but I consider dressage as a kind of yoga for 
  horses.  Any horse can do dressage.  For training level, your horse doesn't
  even have to be on the bit; just relaxed, tracking up, and accurate in terms
  of movements in the test (rider's job).  When you ride a green horse, or one
  that is new to dressage, they are usually stiff and unbalanced and even tense.
  Just like you would be if you were starting to learn yoga.  With time, the
  horse learns suppling exercises like leg yielding and then harder things like
  shoulder in and all the way up to flying changes and other upper level move-
  ments (if horse and rider are talented enough).  The more supple the horse
  becomes the easier it is for them to collect themselves for harder movements.

  
  The factors that limit any old horse from reaching the upper levels are:

    o Attitude  
    
    o Quality/Dedication of Trainer
 
    o Sometimes conformation**

  Conformation and breed seems to be a very hot issue in this notesfile.  In
  some cases a horse can look like a total dog, conformation wise, and move like
  a dream.  Then again I can see how a conformation trait in a breed may make it
  more difficuly for the horse to perform in a certain frame.  For instance,
  many quarter horses stand an inch or two higher at the rump than at the
  withers ie; they are built down-hill so to speak.  This makes it harder for
  the horse to get off his forehand.  I'm not saying that he can't learn, merely
  that it is harder for him to do it than if he weren't built "down-hill".  At
  the same time, I don't want to imply that all quarter horses are built this 
  way.  I know they are not, but obviously each breed has typical conformation
  characteristics or they wouldn't be as distinctive as they are.

  Today's two cents,

  Simone
 

  Here are some conformation qualities I think are important for a dressage 
  horse:

   
  First and foremost, I think that proportion is key.  A horse that is well
  balanced visually is likely to be a good mover, ie; neck/back/rump/legs
  in proportion with one another and put together at all the right places.


  Legs:

  Straight, clean legs are paramount to movement as well as soundness.  If you
  look straight on at your horse's front legs, they should be straight.  Knees
  should face straight foward and be nice and flat (smooth).  Hooves should be
  straight as well (not toeing in or out).  Knees and feet that are crooked
  may cause the horse to paddle and may lead to unsoundness.  A side view will
  show you the angle and length of the pasterns.  A good length depends on the
  rest of the leg (proportion) and the angle should roughly be @ 45 degrees 
  from the ground.  Short/straight pasterns may result in a choppy stride and
  too long pasterns may not be strong enough to support the horse's weight under
  normal concussion.  This applies to back legs as well.  Many horses are cow-
  hocked.  If it is slight, I don't think it really hinders movement too much.
  Very cow hocked is not a good sign.  

  Shoulder:

  A nice sloping shoulder @ 45 degrees to ground should allow for a long, free
  stride.  Straight shoulders (closer to perpindicular to ground) may result
  in a shorter stride.

  Neck and Back:

  Neck and Back should be in proportion to one another.  A horse with a short
  neck and back tends to be harder to stretch and lengthen.  A horse with a
  long back and neck tends to be harder to collect and keep together.

  Withers and Rump:

  I would prefer a horse that with withers and rump even in height or withers
  slightly higher than rump to a horse with a rump higher than it's withers.
  It isn't easy to battle gravity and keep a horse off it's forehand.

    
  I am now riding a 16.3h Quarter Horse who has a very large body and legs that
  are a tad too short for him.  His pasterns are too short and straight as well
  and he has to work very hard and be very relaxed to achieve a stride that fits
  his size.  He tracks up well, but I don't think he'll ever have the "take your
  breath away" suspension that some horses are fortunate enough to be born with.

  Ultimately though, "the proof is in the pudding", and the only real way to 
  determine how well a horse moves is to see them in action.  There is a horse
  at the barn that looks like a total geek, yet she moves like a dream.

  Simone  

  Here's my dilema.   The horse I'm riding has been in training for about 5
  months.  He has been very willing to learn and has been going "round" and
  accepting the bit well until a few weeks ago when he started to have a set-
  back and began to resist (ie: above the bit/fussy - short stride, etc.)
  He is resisting the inside rein.  I lunged him without any gear (just halter)
  to see how he carried himself and noticed that he moves with his haunches in
  and his shoulder and head out (counter bent).  I knew this already from riding
  him and had been more concerned with trying to get him in a relaxed frame than
  in getting him straight.  Once he was accepting the bit, I started asking him 
  to move his haunches out onto the track and get his shoulders aligned with
  the rest of him.  This he does not like at all.  I get major resistance to
  the inside rein and he mostly ignores my inside leg.  The other problem is 
  that he gets very annoyed when I carry a whip, so I have nothing else to re-
  inforce my leg.  (Spurs make him hyper, too)

  I know he gets upset because he is unbalanced - Another thing I noticed while 
  lunging him is that his inside hind steps much too far to the inside 

         
             X     X
      <-        X  <- (this would be where his inside hind would land instead
           X            of being in line with his inside front)


  I am convinced that this is the root of his problem.  When I drop my inside
  rein and push him foward he goes usually goes round again, but resumes his
  crookedness. 
 
  Does anyone have any ideas on how I can go about correcting this?  Is this 
  a common problem in green horses?

  Thanks in adavance for your help,

   Simone

    
    
    Have you made sure he is not the least bit sore in the back?  Or in
    his hind legs?  Since he had been going well, then stopped going well
    it is certainly worth checking out. 

	Don't feel bad for having trouble with straightness.  Forward,
	and straight are the two fundamental concepts running through
	all the levels in dressage.  My guess is there isn't any dressage
	rider who hasn't had trouble with one/both of those things.

	I'm guessing your horse is stiff on one side, and only travels with
	haunches-in (in the counter bend) in one direction.
	
	So lets say your horse is stiff on the right rein, and thats the
	rein that he resists the most, and that's the side you have the
	difficulty getting him to bend around your inside leg, and bend
	through his neck with your inside rein...

	I'm picturing him going calmly on a circle right (but in his counter 
	bend manner), and then you apply your inside rein and inside leg, and 
	he resists, and gets sticky and flustered...

	If I'm right, then I'd try the following things:

	When your riding, you should be able to look down, and see that the
	base of the neck is even between the 2 shoulders.  

	When circling right, only apply enough inside rein & leg, such that 
	he's straight (base of his neck is even between his shoulders), but 
	not enough that he's really bending 'properly' on the circle yet.  I'd 
	recommend using an opening rein to achieve this, while still keeping 
	outside rein.

	If you ask for too much bend through the neck, you might cause his
	haunches to come in even more, in which case, bring his neck
	over to the left a little with your outside rein (again opening outside
	rein).  Sometimes lowering the outside rein as you open it, can keep
	the haunches from drifting in.

	If this flusters him at the trot, try it at the walk.   Try to supple
	him through his neck, by only positioning the neck, left, then right
	but vary your timing so he doesn't recognize a pattern.  Don't ask
	for much positioning.   Every time he positions, pat him and tell
	him he's good and give with your inside rein.   Take plenty of
	pat breaks, especially if he's easily flustered.
	
	If you can't do a simply positioning (ie '2 inches to the right')
	through his neck without him getting tense, do it anyway, and
	accept the fact that you might 'upset' him momentarily.  Reward
	him greatly for that '2 inch neck positioning' then try it again...
	reward greatly, etc...  Don't be afraid to 'mess things up' momentarily
	if it leads toward his understanding that 'all you want is for him to
	do a tiny little thing...' He'll realize that's all you want, and
	probably relax into it.   Then you can try this at the trot and canter
	as well.   Overtime, he'll realize he needs to relax the base of
	his neck in order to do these positioning exercises.  Let him
	carry his neck long and low (but round). At this point,	you should 
	have an easier time of achieving straightness, because he'll be
	more relaxed, more supple, and probably have better 'carrying' strength
	to balance a straight line.   

	It recently took me a month's time to be able to stengthen/supple
	a green broke mare enough such that she could travel straight to
	the right.   In fact, I over did it a little, and she 'switched
	sides' so now what used to be her hard side is her easy side.  :^)

	Hope this long drawn out opinion is of help.

	Melinda
	


	
	



	

   Re: -2

   He has been very destructive in his stall - He often wakes the barn owners
   up at night with his kicking.  He routinely takes down his stall walls and
   it is very possible that this is contributing to his stiffness.  We are
   going to move him to a stall with dutch doors and hopefully this will make
   him happier and less destructive.  

   He is sensitive when curried too hard, but he just acts annoyed and swishes
   his tail a lot.  I have never seen him drop/collapse in his back when being
   saddled/mounted/ridden.

   Re: -1
   
   Melinda,  You're right on the money.  He is stiffer to one side (left), but
   when I first started riding him the left was his more supple side.  I say
   "more supple" because he isn't completely straight either way.  I guess I'm
   just expecting too much of him too soon.  

   I will try using your open rein and micro-positioning method tonight and
   see how he reacts. 

   I was talking with the person who was riding him before me and it was most
   interesting to note that her strong leg is the opposite of my strong
   leg and it's quite possible that this also had something to do with him
   switching stiff sides, due to his tendency to fall/drift out when my weaker
   leg is on the outside.

   Thanks for the tips,

   Simone

    I need some help at the walk.
    
    I've had my Swedish Warmblood for 7 years now, and we've progressed to
    4th Level.  Considering we were both beginners who didn't know where X
    was, I'm not upset with the timeframe.  During all of that time, as we
    worked on the different gaits and the different movements, the one
    constant I heard from my many different instuctors was "Don't mess with
    the walk.  It's the hardest gait to get.  If you start trying to do
    something with it, you'll end up pacing."
    
    Well, I'm now getting 6's and 7's on my trot and canter work, and 4's
    and 5's on my walk work.  I can do the walk pirouttes, but it's the
    marks for extended walk and for collected that I'm really having
    troubles with.
    
    When I first get on him, and we walk to warm up, his frame is very
    long, and he is overstepping by more than a hoofprint.  However, as I
    take up the contact, the stride shortens, and the neck loses its
    elasticity, getting more of an underneck.  
    
    Any suggestions on what exercises I can work on to help?
    
    Thanks.
    

 I have no idea how to improve the walk, other than to 'leave it alone'
 more and 'don't ride it, just let them do it on their own.'

 I've been told the horse will only stretch into the extended walk well
 if he was working well from behind at the other gaits.   

 I've noticed better walks at the lower levels than at the higher levels,
 which seems to support the theory of how the more a horse is asked to collect
 his walk, the more likely he'll lose the purity of his walk.

 Melinda

    :-re .564
    
    What are the comments the judge makes about the walk?
    
    

    I did a dressage test a few weeks ago and I was rather pleased with how
    my horse went.  When it came to the 'Free Walk on a Long Rein' across
    the diaganal, I gave him the rein the took it up and I made him walk,
    still activly, and from what I could see of other riders they did more
    or less the same thing although some horses once they had their head a
    little tended to get lazy.
    
    When the judge (Who is a list 2 judge here in the UK) gave out the
    prizes and out score sheets she said that none of us could do a 
    free walk on a long rein, but she did not say why!
    
    I was under the impression that the above was correct.  Would anyone
    like to throw some light on how to do a correct free walk?
    
    thanks
    
    Wendy 

   I've gotten caught on this one too.  I don't believe a walk on a long rein
   is a "free walk".  Free walk to me is loose rein.  A walk on a long rein
   means you still have contact, but your rein is a bit longer than the rein 
   length used in the collected protions of the test.

   You might want to check the wording in the test.  If it says free walk on
   long rein - I'd say that's very misleading.

   Simone

    Perhaps you should ask a dressage instructor just what the judge
    looks for in the 'free walk on long reign'. This may sound misleading,
    but it is what the test says to do.
    
    My understanding of this (difficult! yes, I think it isn't as easy
    as it sounds) movement, is you must maintain contact at the walk
    on a long reign, and you must show transitions in each diagonal
    corner before and after the free walk. ( in other words you don't
    just 'drop' the reigns, and let the horse meander across the 
    diagonal.)
    
    
    My thoughts, but it is always best to consult with a qualified
    instructor to send you on the right track, good luck!

    How do you do 'free walk on the long rein?'  What I mean is, when you
    do it now, what do you do and what does your horse do?  
    
    Mary

    How I/my horse were taught to do a free walk on a long rein, and 
    I have seen other people doing it is it is usually done going 
    accross the diagonal and the rein is loosened without contact being 
    lost and the horse takes up the slack rein.  This has got a lot of us
    confused!

    That's what I figured.  With my last horse and with this one, I finish
    every ride by doing 10-15 minutes of free walk on a long rein.  Also
    during breaks.  Especially by the end of the workout, they are a little 
    tired and therefore very happy for the opportunity to stretch their
    necks forward and down.  In time it becomes a habit to stretch to the
    bit.
    
    Another exercise that works with some horses (my last horse ignored it,
    this one uses it) is "combing" the reins.  During warmup, and sometimes
    even in the middle of a workout, I work on a loose rein and gently 
    stroke the reins through alternate hands.  The way to do this is to
    reach forward with one hand, fold it over the reins and gently pull
    your hand back toward your body, while allowing the reins to slide through
    your hand.  While you are releasing with one hand, you reach down and
    repeat the move with your other hand.  I don't know how it feels to
    their mouths, but some horses really love it and will stretch right
    down.  Oops, this is done at a trot, but it reinforces the idea of
    stretching to reach the bit.
    
    I'm talking totally from memory now (and I think I'm getting senile
    ;-), but I think the reason for asking for free walk on a long rein is
    to demonstrate that your horse stretches to meet the bit, as opposed to
    having learned by rote to simply maintain a certain frame.  I think
    that in this exercise your horse is expected to fully extend his neck
    -- are you maybe not letting him stretch far enough?
    
    Mary

    
    
    
    
    Well, my understanding of what this movement involves is this:
    
    In most tests where this movement is required, there comes before it
    a 'working walk'. Before starting across the diagonal, you must half-
    halt with seat, leg, hand and allow the horse to go from this working
    walk into a longer free walk frame, still maintaining contact and
    throughness...alternating with left and right leg as the horses left
    and right hind legs leave the ground help to create the necessary
    impulsion and engagement the horse needs to maintain contact and
    througness -- stepping nicely through behind. ( and careful not to
    let the horse 'jig' or trot in any way)
    
    And at the end of this movement, (the next diag. corner) is another
    working walk, so another transition, half-halt, shortening up the 
    reigns to appropriate length for working walk, and preparing for 
    the next movement...
    
    I think all of the 'walk' work can be more difficult than some of
    the work done at trot or canter. Walks are a movement to be practiced
    in some way or another, whichever suits you or the particular horse
    best.  But, the key here is good instruction, a ground person who
    is knowlegeable to be there to help and guide you through.
    
    Good luck, you'll get it, dressage takes time....time....patience and
    more time....sigh...but worth it! When results come in, it's a great
    feeling of accomplishment.
    
    Deb

    Thanks to everyone who has answered my question on 'Free walk on a Long
    rein'.  When I am riding that particular movement I seem to be giving
    my horse his head, and I can feel him stretching into his bit.  It is
    difficult to know what to do but I am getting better and better, I
    think!  It just depends what mood I am in and what mood my horse is in.
    I think its a good idea to school when you are relaxed and not tense,
    like I have bee just lately, as I am getting ready for an ODE.
    
    Wendy

    Hi!
    
    I have a four year old Arabian mare.  I bought her almost 2 years
    ago. We're both pretty green  - I learned the basics of riding while
    she learned how to be riden.  We've been doing some ring work and a
    little trail riding.  She has an excellent attitude toward her work,
    and she listens well.  I think that it would be good for both of us to
    learn Dressage.  
    
    Does anyone know of a good dressage instructor?  I would like to take
    lessons on a school horse for a while, and then take lessons with my
    horse.  I board her in Harvard, MA, so I was looking for someplace close,
    or a trainer that would be willing to come to us.  I've heard that
    Deerhorn Farm has a Dressage instructor (Kris Bobo?), and I was
    wondering if anyone had heard anything about her. 
                                              
    Thanks for your help!
    
    Julie

  Maplewood Farm in Berlin, Ma. isn't too far away from you.  They seem to be
  mostly set up for dressage, but I think some of the instructors teach some
  jumping as well.

  Their phone number is 838-2119.

  Sue Steinhof runs the place and gives lessons - she has a few school horses
  you could ride in lessons as well as some other good instructors who teach
  under her.

  Happy trails..

  Simone

Hi Ed & Karen,


If you have a question on bits, and have access to the AHSA rule book,
I know they draw pictures of all the legal bits.   

As far as I know, the following kinds of snaffles are legal:

straight bar w/eggbut, or loose-ring, or full-cheek ends.
jointed      w/ "      "       "      "       "      "  .
Dr Bristol   w/ "      "       "      "       "      "  .
French link  w/ "      "       "      "       "      "  .

Twisted snaffles are definitely not legal.   (woops above, ofcourse D-rings ends
are legal for all those types too).

How are your horses going?   How have your competitions been?  Tell all!

-Melinda

    I have just registered my horse for Horse Trials here in the UK and 
    have done quite a few low key dressage and one day events, and I am 
    contemplating wether to buy a dressage saddle as the saddle I have
    got is a general purpose but I do feel that the top half of my body is 
    forced forward and my lower leg then slips back.  I am finding it
    difficult to sit deep when my stirrups are adjusted to dressage length,
    even though I do alot of work without stirrups.
    
    I just wondered if anyone out there had any comments about their
    dressage saddled,  I am not looking for any thing high powered
    like a stubben of keiffer, just something in good second hand
    condition - not to expensive!
    
    Wendy

    I have a Crosby Wembly and I love it!  They don't make it any more, but
    you might find a used one.  What I like about it is the fact that
    there's just the minimum of leather between me and the horse.  And the
    seat isn't so extremely deep as some dressage saddles.  I used to have
    one that I could hardly move in at all, the cantle was so high.  I
    think the makers are getting away from this extreme, though.  I've seen
    some saddles advertised lately as having a less deep seat.  Trends
    change...
    
    -ellie

	Re: bit question....

	According to the AHSA 1990/1991 Rule Book, under the Dressage section,
	(something like page 142?) straight bar (mullen mouth) snaffles are
	allowed in dressage competition as are rubber bits. Any bit containing
	copper is *not* allowed however...

   I'm going to watch some of the schooling show tomorrow morning.  I was
   wondering if anyone from this notesfile was going to ride or watch.

   /Simone

I would like to resume the discussion of lateral work that was started 
way back in 10.349 throu 10.362.

It is very easy to overdo lateral work. Especially when the horse's
lateral work needs just a bit more polish to get ready for the next show 
or next level. Many important riders and authors (e.g. Steinbrecht, 
Seunig, Podhajsky, Van Schaik, Herbermann, etc) warn us against doing 
too much lateral work because it can destroy impulsion. The definition 
of "too much" may be as little as 5 strides when the horse can only do 3 
strides!

Some of you may have read some of the controversial articles on lateral
work written by Dr van Schaik for "The Chronicle of the Horse" or 
"Dressage and CT" magazines. These articles were based on his belief 
that incorrect lateral work was even more detrimental to impulsion than 
too much good lateral work. In the remainder of this note, I'll refer to 
Dr van Schaik as "VS".

For years, VS opposed the acceptance of 4 track shoulder-in in dressage 
tests because he felt that it was 1) an incorrect understanding of 
La Gueriniere's writing caused by the diagrams in his book and 2) a 
stage in the horse's training rather than the goal of the training.
Eventually in 1983, the FEI agreed and changed the rules so that a
correct shoulder-in is now considered to be only the 3 track version.
VS also felt that the "shoulder-fore" exercise first discussed by 
Steinbrecht was the best way to begin training for the shoulder-in.

VS was generally an opponent of leg-yielding as he felt it destroyed 
impulsion. He strongly believed that leg-yielding should not be 
incorporated into dressage tests. In fact, he felt that we would
generally be better off without the exercise.

One of VS's other contrversial opinions expressed in such articles was 
his belief that travers should also be eliminated from tests as it also
destroyed impulsion. Even more surprising was his belief that renvers
was acceptable and did not destroy impulsion if practiced correctly!

I'll discuss that astounding statement after some more about 
leg-yielding. VS felt that if leg-yielding was used at all, it should 
only be used as loosening exercise in early training. He also felt that 
leg-yielding should only be done on a circle and only for about 3 strides 
at a time. Whenever he used it in a lesson, the horse would be established 
on a circle and then asked for 2 or 3 strides of leg-yielding. The rider 
would then be instructed to go straight to re-establish impulsion. After a 
change of direction, the exercise would be repeated on the other hand.

VS was not alone in his opposition to leg-yielding in dressage tests. Many
old masters were opposed to leg-yielding because it has many drawbacks.
Podhajksy says: "On the circle and only for basic schooling". Seunig
is even stronger: "except as an introduction or correction,
leg-yielding and turn on the forehand in place are long overdue for a 
first-class state funeral." Seunig suggests that other exercises provide 
the loosening benefits of leg-yielding without the drawbacks.

    So, VS wrote that leg-yielding "should never be asked for in a
    dressage test, not even for beginners." 
    
Now, back to travers. The first time VS told me that travers was 
detrimental but renvers was alright, I thought he had lost his mind! We 
are always taught the travers and renvers are the same thing on the 
oppposite hand(i.e travers right == renvers left). So I went home and dug 
through the library. No help there. Podhajsky, Seunig, Watjen, Muesler, 
Wynmalen show no difference between the two movements. But, I started 
watching and thinking. I thought I saw a difference but wondered if I was
imagining it out of respect for my coach. Then, "dawn broke on 
Marblehead"!

To execute travers, you move the hindquarters of the track. To execute
renvers, you move the *SHOULDERS* off the track. The difference is that
when you move the shoulders off the track, the hindquarters remain 
relatively straight. Therefore, they can drive straight forward as they 
were designed to do. Impulsion is not compromised. When you take the 
quarters off the track, the hindlegs must cross more and you can lose
impulsion. So, even thought travers right *LOOKS* like renvers left, 
there is a subtle difference. Watch somebody ride them both and see for
yourself!

John

    On the other hand, Fritz Stecken, another of the old masters, was a
    strong proponent of leg yielding as an exercise.  He taught leg
    yielding along the wall, which I personally find can confuse a young
    horse when you start introducing shoulder-in.
    
    On the other hand, I find that quarter-line leg-yields and leg-yielding
    corners is very useful in horses with long backs who have difficulty in
    coordinating their front and hind ends and also for horses with very
    wide hips, since it helps loosen them up so they can track a little
    more closely under their center of balance.  It is also good for horses 
    who have a lot of difficulty with lateral bending, since it requires a
    slight flexion (even less than shoulder-fore).
    
    With my last horse, leg-yielding enabled me to re-teach her to canter,
    since she came to me with a spoiled, 4-beat canter.  It also *improved*
    her impulsion, both by improving delivery and balance.
    
    My current horse has been helped by leg-yield to bend to the right,
    although shoulder-fore has really been instrumental in both fixing his
    canter right and in straightening his canter in both directions. 
    Initially, he would lose some impulsion (especially to the right), but
    as he has strenthened, it has improved his carrying power to the point
    that he is starting to *offer* more advanced collection.  Shoulder-fore
    and in have also been instrumental in increasing his understanding and
    responsivenss to the aids, improving his canter in particular.
    
    I think it comes down to the one thing -- leg-yielding and other
    lateral work is another tool in your bag of tricks to improve your
    horse's suppleness, carrying power and responsiveness to the aids.  
    How any one of them should be used depends entirely on the individual 
    horse.  The more people are able to move away from "formula training" and 
    rigid systems, the more they are able to train different individuals to 
    the peak of their abilities.
    
    As to the dressage tests, I looked at the current round and concluded
    that they were definitely designed by committee! ;-)  Possibly even a
    Digital Marketing committee!!! ;-)  ;-)  ;-)  I plan to ride only tests
    that emphasize my horses strengths and just fudge the parts that are
    borderline insane (such as asking a 1st level horse to canter 10 meter
    circles)!
    
    Mary

    Mary,
    
    I whole heartedly agree with most of what you said. I have had a horse
    or two that needed leg-yielding work to loosen up their hindend. Seunig
    recommends turn-on-the-forehand-in-motion which, if I understand it
    correctly, is little more than leg-yielding on a small circle. Seunig
    also recommends lots of other exercises(circles, turns, serpentines
    etc) to replace leg-yielding BUT it seems to require several different
    exercises to get the benefits of leg-yielding. 
    
    Even the "classicists" admit the need for leg-yielding as a training
    tool. In fact, VS used to recommend exactly the approach you said you
    are taking when you encounter a test that's "borderline insane". Either
    don't enter that particular test or fake it and take your lumps in the
    scores.
    
    VS and the Swedish trainer, Baron ???? -Finecke, had a running battle
    in the Chronicle 6-8 years ago about leg-yielding. It ended in a tie.
    The Baron thought LY should be in tests because it was a part of the
    horse's training and therefore was ligitimate to be evaluated. VS
    agrees with Podhajsky and Seunig whose influence caused LY to be
    removed from the tests back around 1963-64. It has resurfaced in
    seemingly more demented ways with each recent revision of the tests!
    
    The confusion of the young horse who has been taught to LY along the
    wall when you later try to teach should-in is one of the reasons VS and
    others preferred to use it only on the circle.
    
    I also agree that we need to avoid rigid attitudes/camps in our
    approaches to training. That was always on of the things I liked about
    working with VS. He had his pet peeves about what should or should not
    be in tests. But in training, his philosophy was broader. He did not
    care whether the theory came from the German school of thought, the
    French or the Austro-Hungarian or whatever. If *TAUGHT* the horse what
    it needed to do, he was for it. He admitted that he did not even know 
    why some of the ideas he used worked! 
    
    Last spring, I read Paul Belasik's book, "Riding Toward the Light".
    Belasik studied with VS and the late Nunio Olivera. In his book, he
    says that their differing opinions on lateral work and other things
    caused him much confusion because they were both experienced,
    knowledgeable masters. He finally realized that he had been looking
    for *THE* way to train. He also realized that the reality of the
    situation is that there are *MANY* equally valid ways to train.
    He said he eventually came to the conclusion that you need to be
    flexible and tailor your training program to the needs of the 
    individual horse rather than some dogmatic ideas of one school or
    another.
    
    John

    I learned "turn-on-the-forehand-at-the-walk" with my last horse.  This
    exercise I find valuable very early on, to explain to the horse to move
    sideways away from the leg.  Other than that I don't use it, because
    I find it tends to throw the horse on his/her forehand and kill
    impulsion and forward movement.
    
    I think the key to all of these "non-classical exercises" (as opposed to
    classical movements :-) is knowing when to use them and when to drop 
    them.  They are, after all, a means to an end, not the end itself.
    
    Gee, its good to know that I think like a master.  Now, if only I rode
     and trained like one!!!! ;-)
    
    Mary

    I know what you mean! If I only rode as well as I read, I'd be great!
    Trouble is I'm only halfway there and I'm more than halfway through
    life.
    
    But, your comments about your experience with
    "turn-on-the-forehand-at-the-walk" are *EXACTLY* what all the great
    masters(does that sound like an ad for classical music records on TV?)
    say is the problem with leg-yielding. LY supposedly "tends to throw the
    horse on his/her forehand and kill impulsion and forward movement".
    
    So, what does a rider do? Whatever you need to do at each stage in
    training and correct it in the next? Sounds logical to me but I have
    found it *EXTREMELY* difficult to restore impulsion once it has been
    killed. Actually, I find it difficult to instill impulsion into a
    naturally sluggish horse even without the problems caused by lateral
    work. I *LOVE* to ride horses with a "gas pedal" so I tend not to work
    with the "slugs" anyway. But, that doesn't really solve the problem;
    it only avoids the it.
    
    John

    All I can say is that with my last horse, her impulsion and balance 
    improved partly due to leg yielding.  On the other hand, she had such
    terribly impulsion and balance to begin with, there was only one
    direction to go in!
    
    With my current horse, we started having impulsion problems in the 95
    degree heat this summer but also as a result of my trying to slow him
    down.  Leg yielding never effected it.  He tends to be an extremist.  
    At first it was "you wanna go for a ride, I'll take you for a ride!!!!!" 
    and we were off and zooming around the arena (and beware to any walls, 
    jump standards, people or horses who happened to be in his way! 8-)
    
    Our next phase was while I was trying to fix his back -- he came back
    from being broken virtually swaybacked.  So we had a month or so of
    "You want me to lift my back? I'll lift my back!!!" and the next thing
    I knew he constantly felt like he was about to drop a load!!!
    
    Then the heat hit and he said, "ya want me to slow down?  why don't we
    just stop!"  I don't know if leg yielding contributed to this or not. 
    However, I no longer school leg yielding, although we do very loose
    quarter line leg yields while warming up.
    
    Actually, I'm somewhat grateful for the current sluggishness, since its
    giving me a chance to put some weight on him without fearing for my
    life!
    
    Mary

	Well I can't quote any specific master, but what I've gathered
	from very good sources and from my own experience is that leg
	yielding has many benefits.

	I can see why leg yielding has been criticized, but I haven't felt
	its caused bad side effects yet.   I like it for the green 1st level
	horse or green 1st level rider, since I think it helps horse/rider to 
	grasp some major concepts:

	1) improves steering by 50%
	
	2) teaches the rider the feel of being 'on the outside rein'
	
	3) teaches the rider the feel of 'diagonal aids'

	4) encourages a horse to soften the rib cage and hips

	5) encourages a horse to soften the jaw and poll

	6) improves straightness

	7) improves carrying power


	Until a rider leg yields they haven't learned how to steer the horses
	hind end.  They probably only have ever learned to steer the forehand
	with their reins.  But the forehand is only half the horse.   I think
	of most horses as having 2 sections - forehand and hindend.  Some have
	more (I joke that those kind are related somehow to insects). 
	
	Leg yielding is the first exercise that challenges the horse and rider
	to keep the sections, however many they're dealing with, _together_.
	The reins steer the forehand, the legs steer the hindend.  A rider
	trying this for the first time, even on a trained horse, will often
	have trouble coordinating this.   When they no longer have trouble,
	they have increased their steering ability by 50%.  They might have
	a new appreciation for the outside rein and/or the effect of diagonal
	aids.  All this can lead a rider toward understanding some of the 
	feel required to keep a horse together longitudinally too. 

	While technically a leg yield has no bend, I still prefer to start 
	first timers on a circle (bending), and have them ask for only 2 
	strides. I'll have the rider say 'en large' out loud to the count
	of the trot beat, while they are trying to get 2 steps of enlarging 
	the circle.  The centrifugal force of the circle makes it far easier 
	to perform this than doing it for the first time off a straight 
	quarter line for example.  Also a circle's geometry alone increases
	the height of the inside hind leg which comes in handy for 'engaging'
	exercises (terrible pun huh).  

	But if all you ever do is teach your horse to enlarge on the circle, 
	or leg yield off a 1/4 line, you'll teach the horse to fall out and not 
	carry his weight properly over his outside shoulder.  To avoid this
	problem, follow up with 'counter 3rd degree bending' which is 
	bending a horse to the outside (while on the circle), and moving
	him away from your outside leg for 2 strides.  This keeps the horse
	on 'his toes' and ready to do either exercise, which ultimately keeps
	his weight balanced evenly, and avoids the shoulder popping or
	'continental drift' problem (as I like to refer to it).   


	Melinda

		
	

Melinda,

        I agree with some of what you said in 10.592 but not all of it.
        Some of it, I don't understand. I'll go through your reply and
        point out what I mean. Perhaps you can explain some of it further.

>	I can see why leg yielding has been criticized, but I haven't felt
>	its caused bad side effects yet.

        I'm glad that your experience with leg yielding has been positive.
        I have seen the negative effects. I'll explain later.

   
>                                       I like it for the green 1st level
>	horse or green 1st level rider, since I think it helps horse/rider to 
>	grasp some major concepts:
>	1) improves steering by 50%
>	2) teaches the rider the feel of being 'on the outside rein'
>	3) teaches the rider the feel of 'diagonal aids'

        Since I don't teach, I don't have a whole lot of experience here.
        However, I did learn all those concepts as well as how to
        ride/train all the other lateral work before I ever used
        leg-yielding. So, the horse and rider can get those 
        concepts from other exercises. But, I'll concede that LY may be
        useful for the introducing a rider to outside rein and diagonal 
        aids.


>	While technically a leg yield has no bend, I still prefer to start 
>	first timers on a circle (bending), and have them ask for only 2 
>	strides. I'll have the rider say 'en large' out loud to the count
>	of the trot beat, while they are trying to get 2 steps of enlarging 
>	the circle.  The centrifugal force of the circle makes it far easier 
>	to perform this than doing it for the first time off a straight 
>	quarter line for example.  Also a circle's geometry alone increases
>	the height of the inside hind leg which comes in handy for 'engaging'
>	exercises (terrible pun huh).  

        The pun wasn't so bad. Puns are *SUPPOSED* to be that way. 

        Anyway, this exercise is exactly what Podhajsky and van Schaik are 
        talking about. In fact, your words are similar to what VS wrote in 
        "Misconceptions and Simple Truths". LY on the circle always feels
        to me more like a sloppy version of a 4 track shoulder-in than like
        LY on the straight. So, I would say that the centrifugal force and 
        the bend of the circle are what mitigate the negative effects of LY. 


>	4) encourages a horse to soften the rib cage and hips
>	6) improves straightness

         I agree that LY is intended to loosen the hindquarters and that
         such suppling may improve straightness *IF* the reason for the
         crookedness lay in the hindquarters. As for softening the rib 
         cage, I would contend that the bending required in LY on the 
         circle is what softens the rib cage and improves straightness.
         Therefore, simple turns, circles, the wavy line serpentine (like
         in 1st level), regular serpentines and similar exercises would 
         achieve the same goals without the negative effects of LY.


>	5) encourages a horse to soften the jaw and poll
         Can you explain how LY does this? 
         
>	7) improves carrying power
         I don't see how this is possible since even proponents of LY
         admit that it is not an "engaging" or "collecting" exercise.
         Did you mean something other than the way I interpreted
         this comment?


>But if all you ever do is teach your horse to enlarge on the circle, 
>or leg yield off a 1/4 line, you'll teach the horse to fall out and not 
>carry his weight properly over his outside shoulder.  To avoid this
>problem, follow up with 'counter 3rd degree bending' which is 
>bending a horse to the outside (while on the circle), and moving
>him away from your outside leg for 2 strides.  This keeps the horse
>on 'his toes' and ready to do either exercise, which ultimately keeps
>his weight balanced evenly, and avoids the shoulder popping or
>'continental drift' problem (as I like to refer to it).   

         While the 'counter 3rd degree bending' exercise may work well
         with a laid-back horse and keep him on 'his toes', I think
         it would drive a "hot" or anxious horse crazy! Besides, 
         there are other ways to keep the horse from popping the 
         shoulder. If you don't use much LY in the first place, this
         should not be a problem.

Now, I'll tell about a horse that was ruined as a riding horse by 
leg-yielding. A few years ago, two of my friends decided they could make 
some money buying, training and re-selling dressage prospects. They bought 
one such colt and green-broke him. 

At this point, I rode him as a prospect for myself. I found him to be a 
normal green horse. He accepted leg contact but didn't bend well or move 
forward from the leg yet. I thought he was too small for me and bought a 
different horse. 

One of these friends convinced the other that they could get a better 
price for the colt if he were trained by someone with a "name". So, 
they sent this horse to a trainer with a regional/national reputation. 
This trainer was a strong believer in leg-yielding. One of the partners 
rode the horse once or twice a week under the trainer's supervision 
while it was at the trainer's barn. 

A couple months later, this partner told the other partner that there was 
a problem with the horse. The horse had started rearing and had actually 
gone over backwards with the trainer up. 

After a lot of close questioning, the partner admitted that the horse had 
started rearing when leg-yielding was first introduced and got worse with 
more leg-yielding. In fact, it had gotten to the point where this horse 
would rear the minute you made *ANY* contact with the leg.

The habit of rearing was so strong that they did not dare to sell him 
as a riding horse. Just so you don't think the horse was crazy or 
intractable or untrainable, I'll tell you what they did with him. They
trained him as a driving horse and sold him that way. They warned the
new owner to *NEVER* under any circumstances ride the horse. The last I
heard of him, the horse was happily competing in driving events and 
taking home a good share of the ribbons.
		
John	

re .593, the ruined riding horse:

I'm not an expert dressage rider, but I do credit myself
with a good deal of common sense, and 
my common sense tells me that leg-yielding alone could
not solely be to blame for the sad situation described.
I feel that this trainer would probably have had equally
bad results with this horse if he had started with any 
other exercise.

Why would anybody keep pressuring a horse after the horse
showed its distress so clearly?  A truly good trainer
would stop to question himself long before the situation
became irreversible. "What am I doing wrong?  What does
this horse need?"  

I'm glad to hear the horse got out of this situation safely.

    re: last
    
    I agree totally.  Leg yielding in and of itself does not lead to rearing.  
    Bad training does. 
    
    re:  previous few replies
     
    I think centrifugal force really only applies to bodies moving at high
    speeds -- higher than would *normally* occur when riding.  I really
    don't think that it applies to dressage riding -- racing maybe, but not
    anything in a ring.
    
    Mary  

    I agree that bad training leads to all sorts of problems. Since
    I was not a first hand participant in the training of that horse,
    I can only recount the story as it was told to me. Yes, this would be
    considered "hearsay" in a court of law. But, I did get the story
    directly from one of the partners and had it confirmed by the other.
    
    Most "trainers" that I have come across who were strong proponents of
    LY also had a relatively rigid approach to training. First the horse learns
    this, then this, now we do this much LY then we do something else...all
    according to script! It may simply have been the case that this horse
    was not ready to do what was asked and the "dompteur" wasn't flexible
    enough to adapt the training to the horse.
    
    On the other hand, it may well have been a mismatch between trainer and 
    horse as you two have suggested. I have seen horses rear and go over 
    backwards the very first time they were ridden by someone who wasn't 
    tactful enough for the horse. It doesn't necessarily have to be a long 
    term feud between the two, it can be "hate at first sight"!
    
    As for centrifugal force, the basic laws of physics say it applies to 
    all bodies moving on a circle. Yes, the rate of speed directly affects
    the *AMOUNT* of centrifugal force. That's why cars at high speed have 
    trouble making turns unless the turn is banked. But it does apply to
    a horse at the walk even though the speed is only 3 or 4 MPH.
    
    So, even though the centrifugal force is small, it can offset some
    of the loss of impulsion that is caused by LY. I never said that it
    *SOLVED* the problem, only that it lessened the problem. And Melinda
    only said that she thought centrifugal force made it easier to learn
    LY on the circle than on the straight. There is nothing inconsistent
    in those two statements or with the physics of the situation.
    
    Whether or not centrifugal force  is the reason, several "old masters"
    wrote that they thought LY on the circle was less deleterious than
    LY on the straight. Others say eliminate LY altogether. And still
    others, say it's a good thing, let us use it on the straight, on the
    circle and at least the AHSA says on the diagonal.
    
    I didn't intended to start a feud over LY. (Actually, I thought I'd get 
    lots of flak when I said travers left was not the same as renvers
    right since that's sort of a sacred cow) At least this has been a
    lively discussion, with several opinions expressed all of which are
    equally valid.
    
    For myself, I will continue to use LY but not as a first course of
    action. I'll use the alternatives first and if I need to use LY, so be
    it. It really all comes back to what Mary said a couple replies back:
    You have to tune in to the horse and figure out what it needs.

Hi John,

	I think we're in agreement on most things, but I'll let you be
	the judge on areas that you pointed out.

>       Since I don't teach, I don't have a whole lot of experience here.
>       However, I did learn all those concepts as well as how to
>       ride/train all the other lateral work before I ever used
>       leg-yielding. So, the horse and rider can get those 
>       concepts from other exercises. But, I'll concede that LY may be
>       useful for the introducing a rider to outside rein and diagonal 
>       aids.

	Yes, I agree a rider can grasp these concepts by going directly
	to shoulder-in or other lateral work.  My statement was based on
	the assumption that a rider would do basic leg yielding before
	the other lateral work.    From my experience, riders find leg
	yielding far easier than other lateral work.   I realize your
	point of concern is for the horse and not the rider. 


>        I agree that LY is intended to loosen the hindquarters and that
>        such suppling may improve straightness *IF* the reason for the
>        crookedness lay in the hindquarters. As for softening the rib 
>        cage, I would contend that the bending required in LY on the 
>        circle is what softens the rib cage and improves straightness.
>        Therefore, simple turns, circles, the wavy line serpentine (like
>        in 1st level), regular serpentines and similar exercises would 
>        achieve the same goals without the negative effects of LY.


	 Yes, I agree the bend is what softens the rib cage.  Since I
	 prefer to do leg yielding on a circle (ie 'enlarging the circle'),
	 then the horse is bending and therefore softening the rib cage.
	 I agree other exercises can soften the rib cage as well.

	 I would argue even when leg yielding off a 1/4 line or center line
	 that a horse softens the rib cage just from the touch of the riders 
	 leg being held further back.   Sometimes just pressing the whip on a 
	 horses side releases tension in the ribcage.  (Much like the effect 
	 of people touching their own foreheads when they have a tension 
	 headache).

	 As for straightness, I think its hard to isolate whether straightness
	 is resulting from a crooked forehand or a crooked hindend.  Its
	 almost like the glass is half empty or half full problem.  

	 I had the good fortune of having a conversation with Max Gawyler 
	 recently about straightness.   While this was the first time I'd
	 met him, I've known from his books and from his judging that he
	 believes that the fundamental problem with most horses he sees
	 is that they haven't attained proper straightness.  He told me he'd	
	 spend 2 years with a horse, making straightness his primary goal.  
	 And only after he had achieved that goal, would he continue training.
	 So ofcourse I asked, 'What are you doing with the horse for those
	 2 years?.'  Well, I got a half hour explanation, even acted out!
	 I won't attempt to write all that I absorbed from that conversation,
	 except this much... At one point, he described the same exercises 
	 (enlarging and counter 3rd degree bending) but using different 
	 terminology.  I gathered his definition of straightness is really
	 'balanced weight over all four legs'.   He shared with me exercises
	 I'd not heard of before and gave me some different insight to
	 what might be the root of some problems, but I was reassured that I
	 was in agreement with him over the 'enlarge/counter 3rd degree bend'
	 exercise as a means to achieving better balance, and therefore
	 improving straightness.   

>	5) encourages a horse to soften the jaw and poll
>         Can you explain how LY does this? 

>	Yes I can explain this but since it relates to your next question,
	I'll answer it there.  

>	7) improves carrying power
>        I don't see how this is possible since even proponents of LY
>        admit that it is not an "engaging" or "collecting" exercise.
>        Did you mean something other than the way I interpreted
>        this comment?

	First lets make sure we agree on the definition of carrying power.
	Carrying power results from hind end strength and terms used to
	indicate its existence might be 'collection' or 'air time' or 
	'suspension.'	When a horse develops more and more strength in 
	his hindend he can carry more weight there.  He will lower 
	his haunches and round through his topline.  I use the analogy of
	'low gears' as opposed to 'high gears.'  To help people develop
	an eye for carrying power, I'll ask them to watch  the topline 
	and look for 'round' versus 'flat' lines.  Or watch the arc of the 
	hind foot movement and have them look for a high arc off the ground 
	vs a low flat arc.  Some people prefer to watch the hocks or stifles 
	bending. Another indicator is the distance between the hocks. Wide 
	spread hocks -> no carrying power; closer hocks -> carrying power.  
	Carrying power takes great strength, like a weight lifter needs.  
	A weight lifter works out differently than a runner.  Look at the 
	muscles of a grand prix dressage horse and then look at the sleeker 
	muscling of a race horse.   The dressage horse has carrying power.    
	
	If we agree on that definition then I'll state how I see
	that leg yielding is one step in a long process of developing more
	carrying power.   In leg yielding, the inside hind leg is asked to 
	come under the horse.  In order to do this it must take a higher step
	which takes strength.  At first, the horse might slow down, because 
	he's redirecting his forward, ground covering power into higher, 
	carrying power.  Perhaps this is the moment where you would disagree 
	with me, I don't know.    When I stated a horse might 'slow down' let
	me point out that there's a good definition of 'slow' and a bad 
	definition of 'slow'.   The good definition is when a horse keeps his
	impulsion but also adds some carrying power which results in a slightly
	less ground covering stride.  The bad definition is when the horse
	loses implusion and has little if any ground covering strides (we've
	all seen a horse stop). The first time a horse does the leg yielding,
	he'll probably do the bad definition of slow (ie lose impulsion).
	So on that note, I agree with you.  But I still think the exercise
	leads toward improving carrying power.

	At first a horse doesn't have the strength to step under himself
	but that is why its best to do the exercise for only a couple steps.
	Eventually the horse does have the strength to do this, without
	losing the forward impulsion.  When the horse is performing the
	leg yield correctly he is going forward _and_ tapping on some
	carrying power all at the same time.  We all know the golden rule
	'Go forward first, collect second.' If a horse loses impulsion,
	by all means stop doing the exercise and go forward!

	You would have to agree with my argument on how leg yielding
	is one step toward achieving carrying power before you'd believe that
	it can also help soften the poll and jaw.   There is not a doubt in
	my mind that when a horse is enlarging the circle, he is apt
	to soften his poll and jaw.  I am convinced that the best time to
	introduce a beginning dressage rider or horse to softening a horse's 
	poll & jaw is while on a circle.  Again the geometry of the circle
	alone encourages the horse's inside hind leg to take less ground
	covering steps and more 'carrying steps'.  Enlarging the circle
	encourages this all the more.  When the horse is using some carrying
	power, he's coming under behind a little more which softens the
	weight on the forehand, which are all the pre-requisites for asking
	the horse to come round in front.

>        While the 'counter 3rd degree bending' exercise may work well
>        with a laid-back horse and keep him on 'his toes', I think
>        it would drive a "hot" or anxious horse crazy! Besides, 
>        there are other ways to keep the horse from popping the 
>        shoulder. If you don't use much LY in the first place, this
>        should not be a problem.

       'On his toes' can be interpreted 2 ways.   For the hot horse,
	use the ballet dancer interpretation, not the musical chairs one.  
	For the warmblood, do both!


 Melinda

Hi Melinda,

OK, I'll agree that the touch of the leg can encourage a horse to 
soften, "but". That "but" is that such encouragement would depend 
on the *QUALITY* of the touch. Just as a horse may drop its back
under a stiff, hard seat, a horse may stiffen its ribcage against an
unpleasant leg contact. With an inviting leg, it is possible for the 
horse to soften its ribcage. Therefore, if your horses soften their
ribcages during leg-yielding, I would say that it is a tribute to your
skill as a rider rather than a benefit from LY. Less skilled people
may not be able to get such an effect from LY.

I wholeheartedly agree with your description of "carrying power". I 
thought the use of the wide vs. narrow hocks was particularly apt. Any of
us who have sat behind a driving horse going at high speed in the trot
have seen that they frequently spread their hocks. This allows them to
over-stride with a relatively flat back and yet not interfere with their
front legs.

You are right. The next step is where we disagree! IMHO, carrying power
is increased by getting the horse to shift weight to the hindlegs and
to bascule its back. LY does neither of those things. In fact, most 
authors state that LY causes a horse to go on its forehand. By our agreed 
upon definition, that would decrease carrying power.

However, it seems to me that you are saying something more "between the lines" 
when you write. In your description of how you think LY improves carrying 
power, I detect an implicit statement that suppling is a prerequisite to 
collection and, since LY is a suppling exercise, you feel that LY is the 
first step to improving carrying power. I can not argue with that logic but 
neither can I make the leap to saying that LY itself actually improves 
carrying power.

We could quibble about whether enlarging the circle is or is not LY for a 
long time, but let's not! There are many ways to enlarge/diminish a circle.
For example, de Carpentry doesn't even discuss LY in "Academic Equitation"
but describes many exercises in which the rider enlarges/diminishes or 
spirals in/out on a circle. The chances of describing what you are talking 
about, how the horse moves, etc, accurately enough in a note so I and
others will understand exactly what you mean are slim and none. If we
could draw pictures in notes, I'd say go for it but we can't do that.

Re: "on his toes"; What do you mean by the ballet dancer vs musical chairs?

Re: Max Gawyler. I am intrigued! Especially that interesting definition of 
straightness, 'balanced weight over all 4 legs'. I would, therefore, expect 
that his exercises to achieve straightness would also have a fair amount of 
collecting potential in order to change the typical 60:40 ratio we see in 
green horses. Would you be willing to share some of your good fortune by
relating what you learned from him? Perhaps, a several short notes in this 
topic rather than one long one? If he achieves straightness in only 2 years,
I'd like to try some of his theories. I remember an anecdote from my early
reading on dressage. The French General l'Hotte was once asked why he looked
so pleased today. The Genreal replied something like "I have reason to be 
pleased. I have been working with this horse for several years and today
we walked straight from A to C for the first time!"

John,

I'll explain what I meant by the 'on his toes' expression being
interpreted 2 ways.   

The 'musical chairs' analogy:  A warmblood, for example, often needs to quicken
his ability to engage.  In musical chairs, the object of the game is to
dash to an empty chair as soon as the music stops playing.   I like the
analogy, because with a somewhat lazy horse, I want to perk up his senses
and get him 'on his toes' and ready for anything.  I like keeping the
game analogy in mind with the horses too.  In the right context, the horse
picks up on your gaming spirit, and soon begins to realize the object of
the game is to become anticipative of _something_ but their not sure what
it is.   The common word here is really 'on the aids.'  

The 'ballet dancer' analogy:  Ofcourse we want all our horses to become
ballet dancers.  For those horses who don't need more 'gaming spirit'
and who are already alert and perky then interpret the phrase 'on his toes' 
to mean getting him better balanced.   

I agree I find it amazingly hard to write down a simple exercise. Just from
my attempt at participating in your LY discussion, I know I'm not being very
clear and that the last thing I would want is someone to read some script,
as I think you referred to already, and go off and try to develop some
carrying power in their horse!  This is why I don't get concerned with keeping
up on reading  a great deal of dressage books.  I find the reading interesting,
but I honestly don't think the reader is getting even 10 percent of what the 
poor 'master' was trying to say.  Not to mention many books have been 
translated.

Also, I would suspect that even a master wouldn't publish his whole bag of
tricks.  The reason?  It might shock the readers!   It might appear to
break some fundamental dressage law of the universe, and not be worth the
energy level it would take to defend.   So the muddy areas start to add up
whenever you rely on reading about dressage since we've got masters of
riding, trying to be masters of writing, who are then sometimes being
translated and who left out some of the recipe's ingredients anyway.

Mind you, I do enjoy reading dressage books.  I'm just pointing out the
dangers of relying on them as a primary source of information.  

Melinda

    Right on, Melinda!
    
    Mary

    I agree completely. Riding is something you learn by doing, feeling.
    I also agree that we need to supplement riding with reading and thinking.

    A couple years ago, I came across a quote attributed to Leonardo da
    Vinci in a technical book I was using at work. The book was in English
    but the quote was in Italian. I was so curious that I had to
    translate it. To the best of my recollection, it translated as:
   
    "Those who devote themselves to practice without science are like a 
     pilot who puts to sea without rudder or compass and who can never
     be certain where they are going. Practice must always be based on
     sound theory."

     I think that this thought applies to training of horses as well as
     anything except that in training horses things are not as clear cut
     as they are in the physical sciences.
    
     John

    re: last
    
    Sure they are!  Just make certain your horse reads the same books you
    do!
    
    Mary ;-)

    Wouldn't that be great! Except we'd have to censor the parts were
    the authors talk about how to deal with evasions! I can just see Ben
    (my gelding) spinning his mental gears...
    
    "When he does this, I supposed to do this...How about if I try this
    instead? Oh no, Seunig had a solution for that....How about popping the 
    shoulder? No, I tried that last week and he stopped me. Well, I could 
    always BOLT, none of these old coots that they call 'masters' have figured 
    that one out!"

    In the Nov 1991 issue of "Dressage & CT", there's an article entitled
    "Killing The Dressage Virus" that talks about aids and horse's
    reflexes. That article includes a couple paragraphs that summarizes our
    recent discussion on leg-yielding pretty well. I quote w/o permission:
    
    "...shoulder-in and counter canter...prove, among other things, that
    the horse is indeed responsive to the outside active rein and the
    inside active leg.
    
    All the classical aids are variations on the theme of riding the horse
    forward with a passive inside rein and an active inside leg. One could
    go so far as to say that if an aid does not call for a passive inside
    rein and an active inside leg, it is not a classical aid at all. When
    one considers this in the light of the findings which will follow in
    future issues, it becomes obvious that the classical aids are, indeed,
    always correlated with the basic reflexes of the horse.
    
    The only legitimate exercises which are not based on classical
    principles are leg-yielding and turn-on-the-forehand, in both of which
    the inside leg is active behind the girth. Many experts feel that these
    are not classical exercises and do not use them. However, they do have
    a practical use for conveying certain principles to novice horses and
    riders."
    
    
    Doesn't that last paragraph sound like the short version of our 2-3
    week discussion?

    Because a horse (or anyone) can learn to respond to a specific action
    with a specific reaction doesn't mean the the reaction is reflexive. 
    Reflexive actions are automatic -- for example, tapping your knee joint
    in a precise spot will cause your lower leg to swing forward.  If their
    responses to aids were reflexive, horses would be *born* responding to
    classical aids.  Sure would make training a lot easier! 
    
    As it is, horses responses to aids are ultimately conditioned.  And its
    the training that makes the conditioning.
    
    I'm very leery of riding masters trying to be writing masters, physics 
    masters or, in this case, biology masters, in order to support their
    theories.
    
    Shoulder-in and counter canter prove that horses *can be taught to be*
    responsive to....
    
    The article, at least the part you have summarized, reads like
    pseudo-intellectual claptrap to me.  Although I suppose it's equally
    possible that it is simply bad writing.
    
    Mary                                   

    I just remembered something I wanted to ask. Is anybody out there
    moderately/extremely knowledgeable about the French school of dressage?
    The best known advocate might be the late Nunio Oliveira. Since I only
    went to one clinic with Oliveira, I'm sure no expert on his thoughts.
    
    In one of the earlier replies on LY, I said something about de
    Carpentry not discussing LY in "Academic Equitation". Later, it
    occurred to me that all those masters I quoted early on in the
    discussion were essentially of the German school. I have actually 
    heard very little from the French quarter over the years on LY.
    
    Sure, Podhajsky considered the Spanish Riding School as proponents of
    the French school and he claimed that their training was based on
    la Guerinierre. But, that's a German speaking Austrian's interpretation
    of the French school. And van Schaik was from the "Eclectic School" and
    took a little from both approaches. So, he doesn't really count either.
    The coach I had before VS was of the French school(basically) but I
    don't remember her ever talking about LY either.
    
    So, my question is this: Do the masters of the French school use LY?

    The article that I quoted(not summarized) discusses the relationship of
    aids to the horse's reflexive responses to being touched in certain
    ways. Dr. Deb Bennet talks about this sort of response extensively in
    her books and articles on horse conformation analysis. In fact, Bennet
    claims that this sort of reflexive response is how a horse bascules its
    back. Linda Tellington-Jones uses similar ideas in some of her work.

    
    
    
    
    
    re: last  
    
    pseudo-intellectual claptrap OR bad writing OR bad reading ;-)
    
    I  just re-read your initial entry.  I must have been on drugs or 
    something the first two times around, because it read entirely 
    differently this time.
    
    For example, my eye was turning the word reflexes into reflexive, and
    while I was reading the note (and writing my response) I was thinking
    to myself that "reflexive" isn't even a word (or rather, it's a word,
    but its definition has nothing to do with reflexes and everything to do
    with grammar), so they must be referring to reflexes.
    
    Who knows what else my eye was distorting into nonsense.  I still have
    difficulty with the 1st para. talking about shoulder-in and
    counter-canter "proving...", but its very possible that the parts you left
    out would fix that.
    
    Mary

 Did anyone see Pam Goodrich on TV last night? They had a story on
 how people who have joint replacements aren't necesarily old and
 how they can often resume normal active lives. As illustration of 
 this point they showed Pam Goodrich riding what appeared to be a
 4th level horse. (The clip showing her riding was very short!)
 Apparently she has had a complete hip replacement (they showed 
 an x-ray of it) and a year later was back riding and competing 
 just as actively as before. She says she has no trouble at all 
 even with getting on and off. Amazing!

    I tried to catch up with some magazines over the holidays and found
    similar reports/statements in two places: Warmbloods are on their way
    OUT as top level dressage horses!
    
    In Dec 13 1991 issue of "The Chronicle of the Horse", there is an
    interview with Paul and Jeanne Belasik. I quote:
      "The Belasiks have found that lighter-built horses serve a larger
       market than the heavier Warmbloods.
    
       'Even in the last few years I've seen the move away from the heavier
        horse at the highest levels of dressage to ones with stron
        infusions of Thoroughbred,' said Paul who once raised and trained
        Trakehners at his farm in the Adirondack Mountains."....
    
       "The Belasiks look for prospects from breeders and Thoroughbred
        auctions all over the country. They often consult with bloodstock
        expert Rick Abott, who steers them away from high-priced stock and
        identifies pedigrees, helping select horses with potential."
    
    
    The second item was a report on the FEI Level Symposium found in the 
    January 1992 issue of "Dressage and CT". The Symposium was a discussion
    by a panel of about 7 FEI level judges most of whom were European.
    During this Symposium, the subject of the suitability of the
    Thoroughbred for dressage came up. The panel members favored the
    Thoroughbred for dressage at high levels. They noted that there is a
    trend toward the Thoroughbred or Thoroughbred type dressage horse. They
    felt that this is good. They also felt that the reason most CURRENT 
    FEI level dressage horses were Warmbloods was because of the
    temperament differences between them and Thoroughbreds. But, they
    warned that the Warmblood's easy-going nature allows trainers to gloss
    over important phases in training and push a horse to FEI levels too
    soon. Where the more difficult Thoroughbred temperament forces the
    rider to have tact and provide thorough basic training to improve both
    physical and mental development.
    
    The fads always seem to come back to the Thoroughbred or a Thoroughbred
    type horse...   

I've observed the market demand to be for 'easy horses to ride'
and the heavy set warmblood is often a difficult horse to ride,
(at least early on in its training) taking much stronger seat and leg aids.  

Keep in mind in this country women are the target customers.
Smart breeders will try to  respond to market demand by producing
more 'ladies horses.' 

Its not surprising that we're coming 'full-circle' almost, when
it comes to trends.   

Melinda

    Interesting that you say the "warmblood is often a difficult horse to
    ride" and that the market is for 'easy riders'. When warmbloods first
    started becoming popular in the USA 15-20 years ago, they were touted as 
    easy to ride alternatives to Thoroughbreds! 
    
    The FEI symposium report that I mentioned reiterated the belief
    that Thoroughbreds are more difficult to train ESPECIALLY at the early
    stages because they require greater tact and sensitivity than
    warmbloods.
    
    Personally, I have always felt that a carefully developed "hot blood" 
    (whether TB, Arab or whatever) would be a more brilliant, expressive 
    dressage horse than the more heavily built, slower moving(read less quick 
    NOT sluggish) moving type of horse which is so common among warmbloods. 

	Yes I agree it takes more tact with a TB or other hot blooded
	breed in the early stages, and that in itself makes them
	sometimes more difficult to ride than a warmblood.

	Lets assume for a moment tactful riding is going on...
	when I said _heavy_ set warmbloods are more difficult to ride, I 
	was comparing the difference in physical strength needed to
	ride the horse (at least in the early stages).  Since the target 
	market is women there is a need to produce 'warmer' warmbloods.

	I know we've beaten the warmblood/hotblood thing to death,
	but I do find it interesting to understand what the majority
	of buyers want in a dressage horse.
	
	In my opinion, dressage buyers want a horse thats gorgeous,
	easy to ride, easy to show, trailer, handle, and most importantly they 
	want a SAFE mount.   IMO, most buyers of expensive horses are women 
	between 30-50 who are training level/first level riders but
	are naturally aspiring to become higher level riders with the
	RIGHT horse.   Warmbloods have been very appealing not just 
	because they are 'trendy' (although thats some of it), but mostly
	because they tend to be less explosive, and are SAFER.

	I'd like to hear other people's opinion's on what they think
	the majority of dressage-horse-shoppers want in a horse.

	Melinda
	
	

    I like a horse that is light, elegant, responsive and brilliant.  I
    don't want to have to carry a 15 hundred pound horse around.  I also
    like t-bred movement a little better -- because it is more forward, I
    find even the biggest movers easy to ride (when I'm in condition).
    Interestingly, the best t-breds I've ridden had wonderful temperaments
    -- lively but not explosive.  Irish t-breds and Brazilian t-breds (or 
    that type) in particular.  They were sensitive and responsive AND sane.  
    They also tended to have a little more substance than typical American 
    t-breds, making them sounder.
    
    Mary
    
    
    

    I'm wholeheartedly in Mary's camp on this one: I want a horse that is
    light, elegant, responsive and brilliant. I also agree that you can
    find TB's w/more substance and wonderful temperaments. I have even ridden
    American TB's that have come off the TRACK that were quite sound and
    sane but too slow to race. Our friends in England and Ireland
    assure me that their TB's are more substantial and quieter too
    especially since they have a much larger steeplechase racing calendar
    than we do in the US.
    
    I don't like to ride warmbloods because they make me work too hard
    physically! I prefer a horse with more sensitivity.
    
    However, that's my personal preference and I think Melinda's question
    was "What do we think the 'masses' want in a dressage horse?"
    
    My observations at various shows is that the "training level/first
    level rider aspiring to higher levels" that Melinda referred to MAY
    best be served by a warmblood...because they cannot ride quietly and
    the phlegmatic warmblood can accept that more readily than a hot horse.
    The banging legs, jangling arms and flopping bottoms of such riders
    would drive a sensitive horse to distraction.
    
    However, my recommendation to such a person would NOT be to buy a 
    warmblood. I would recommend that they learn to RIDE before they spent 
    $20,000 or more on a horse! 

    re:  -.1 your last sentence
    
    You hit the nail on the head!   However, what I've seen an awful lot of
    is teachers that cater to the immediate gratification desires of their
    wealthy clients, rather than making them hoe the line.  For the amount
    of money involved, though, I can't say that I blame them.  
    
    I suppose this answers Melinda's question about what the market wants
    -- *immediate gratification,* at any price and at any cost.   This is,
    I believe, endemic to our society.  For example, you may have seen
    recent commercials for the Yamaha "Diskclavier" (expensive "player
    piano") -- let's you "feel" like you're a musician without having to go 
    through the "pain" of learning about music and how to make music (ie, 
    technique & musicianship).   The ironic, and sad, part about this is
    that it denies the person what they really need -- a sense of
    accomplishment and the self-worth that brings -- and sets them up for 
    addiction.  Its a lot like sugar that way.
    
    Mary
    
    
    
    ps & BTW, I, too, have seen some fabulous American t-breds that were too
    slow to race.  They were the ones I referring to when I said
    "Irish-type."  Also, I may have said "Brazilian" t-bred before, when I
    meant Argentinian, although possibly the Brazilians are nice too!
    
    

	Mary & John

	While I understand your point, I tend to come to the defense of well 
	meaning beginner riders buying expensive horses.  I figure why 
	shouldn't they have something luxurious provided they aren't cruel to 
	the horse, and are trying to improve under instruction. 

	As riders, we've all made mistakes in order to progress,
	and none of us can say we didn't/don't/won't interfere with our
	horses in our past/present/future.  

	So as bystanders, why should we care if a rider, in the early
	stages of his/her development or whatever stage, chooses a more 
	valuable horse to make mistakes on?  Do we feel any better watching 
	those mistakes on a less expensive horse?  I doubt it.  Luckily horses
	are very forgiving animals who have been waiting for us to become
	better riders for centuries.

	Just as an aside, I'm imagining Mario Andretti snickering at buyers of
	sports cars and saying snootily 'Why don't you learn to DRIVE first??'

	:^) Melinda
	


		
	
	

    Melinda,
    
    While I agree with you in principle, I have a very practical reason for
    objecting.  It drives up the price and keeps them out of the hands of 
    poor people (like me ;-)!   Other than that, I have no objections to 
    beginners having good horses.  And since I'm more comfortable on
    hotbloods than warmbloods anyway (at 5'2" and 112 pounds I really have
    a hard time holding together the big ones -- I can do it, but it really
    takes the fun out of riding for me).
    
    Actually, now that I have Algiers, I don't have any resentment against
    beginners on good, expensive horses.  And if I hadn't stumbled into
    him, I was planning on getting a good t-bred anyway :-)
    
    However, I do think the current trend in the US -- and this applies to
    all the arts, not just dressage -- toward instant gratification really
    hurts the arts and people in the long run.  
    
    Mary  

    Mary,
    re .617
	 >I figure why 	shouldn't they have something luxurious provided they 
         >aren't cruel to the horse, and are trying to improve under 
         >instruction. 

        ALL horses fall into the category of luxuries. They certainly aren't 
        necessities in this era.

        >Just as an aside, I'm imagining Mario Andretti snickering at buyers of
        >sports cars and saying snootily 'Why don't you learn to DRIVE first??'

         I wasn't trying to be "snooty". I was just pointing out that riders 
         at that stage of learning need a "professor"(well trained school 
         horse) that they can ride on a daily basis rather than a $20-30,000 
         competition horse that they need to send to "their trainer". Such 
         people ride their horse once or twice a week, if they're lucky. Some
         of 'em only get on the horse at shows!

	>So as bystanders, why should we care if a rider, in the early
	>stages of his/her development or whatever stage, chooses a more 
	>valuable horse to make mistakes on?  

         Which is more 'valuable' to a beginning/intermediate rider: a "grade" 
         professor schooled to 2nd/3rd level or a green, tractable, expensive
         warmblood?

         I had the good fortune to come across several professors when I was 
         at that stage. One of them was an ancient FEI level campaigner. The 
         others had never competed at all as far as I know. Each of them was
         priceless: what they taught me was invaluable.

	John, it wasn't Mary who wrote note 617 - twas I ! 

	Anyway, naturally I didn't mean to imply you were snooty.
	Yet you realize, the fact that we are dressage riders 
	categorizes us as snooty to many. :^)  

	When I defended beginners buying expensive horses I was
	saying so under the assumption that the horse was a good match.
	I positively agree with you that forgiving schoolmasters
	are the best teachers.   Have you priced one lately?  They
	can be well over the 20K marker, depending on the level you
	want.  

	Melinda
	

    Sorry, Melinda...about calling you "Mary" in reference to .617
    
    Yeah, lots of people think dressage riders are snooty. (My father-in-law
    calls dressage shows "elegant masochistic rituals") But, lots of people 
    think hunter/jumper riders are snooty; or SaddleSeat riders; or all 
    English riders; or all horse people... So, I'll be REALLY snooty and
    say, "Who cares what they think?"
    
    Re:professors being expensive... I know lots of people who couldn't 
    sell such a horse BECAUSE IT WASN'T A Warmblood! A few years ago 
    there wasn't much of a market for a 2nd level horse that wasn't a
    Warmblood. At the same time, people were buying unbroken warmbloods
    (frequently yearlings) for $20,000...That's why I was glad to see the 2
    articles that started this exchange.
    
    Besides, who said you have to OWN the professor? All of them I ever rode 
    were owned by my coaches or were their client's horses that they used for 
    lessons as part payment of the board/training fees. I'd learn something 
    on the professor and practice on my own horse until my next lesson.
    
    I really agree with Mary(the real Mary, that is) when she says that the 
    basic problem comes from our society's need for instant gratification.
    Van Schaik used to complain about the same sort of attitude. I have run
    into such people at his clinics from time to time. They would come and
    see some of his more advanced students ride. They'd get all excited and
    sign up for the next clinic. Some of them would get extremely
    frustrated when they and their horses couldn't produce perfection after
    ONE lesson! One of them actually said to me, "I want my horse to go
    like yours...but I want it NOW!" She had had 1 lesson w/VS. I had been
    training the horse I rode for 3 years and had been working w/VS for 5
    years at that point. The horse she was riding was a better horse than
    mine. It had better conformation and natural balance as well as better
    gaits.[Mine's prettier though ;-)] But, she just didn't want to work that 
    long to get what she wanted.
    
    VS borrowed a phrase from Winston Churchill and would say, "You can not 
    call yourself a rider until you have spent blood, sweat and tears in 
    learning to ride."

    Although I agree that there is some merit to having a "schoolmaster", I
    think that perhaps it is better for the schoolmaster not to be the
    horse you own, as mentioned in a previous note.  Yes, you can learn
    what different movements are supposed to feel like, and how a horse is
    supposed to respond from a shcoolmaster.  But you *really* learn to
    ride and how to sense what a horse is doing and hear what it is saying
    by riding the green ones.  And by riding lots of different horses.
    
    When I was younger, I used to ride at a stable where they also raised
    thoroughbreds for the track.  Well, after riding there for a while, 
    they atrted letting me show their jumpers, so I got to ride lots of
    different horses -- the owner's son would buy himself a new horse, ride
    it for a few months and drive it crazy, then decide it was no good and
    buy a new one.  Well, I got to reclaim and show his castoffs and it was
    the best experience *ever*!  And then I also started reschooling their
    race horses that didn't make it on the track.  I'd take these goofies
    and get them ready to be school horses.  I learned more from these
    "ruined" jumpers and race track rejects than I ever did from any well
    schooled horses!
    
    So, yeah, having a schoolmaster is nice, but you get the best of both
    if you just have occasional access to one, and you learn what makes
    horses tick from the green ones.
    
    -ellie

I am totally in agreement with ellie in note 10.622, and in addition would like
to state here that I think there are a number of us training level/first level
riders that may find this statement from note 10.615 a gross and inaccurate 
generalization:

� ...My observations at various shows is that the "training level/first
�    level rider aspiring to higher levels" that Melinda referred to MAY
�    best be served by a warmblood...because they cannot ride quietly...
�    and the phlegmatic warmblood can accept that more readily than a hot horse 
�    The banging legs, jangling arms and flopping bottoms of such riders
�    would drive a sensitive horse to distraction.

	I for one show at this level and my mount is a Thoroughbred, off the 
	track, that I have spent several years schooling and we do quite well 
	thank you very much ;-)

Regarding price, I can not afford a $20,000 horse and never will, however,
even the $20,000 horses must be kept properly schooled to retain their value.
It's just as easy to un-train a $20,000 horse as it is a $2,000 horse
(especially when you have flapping, bouncy, training and first level riders
aboard :-)

    I apologize for offending you. However, if you have spent several years
    re-schooling a TB you are not one of type of riders to whom I was
    referring.
    
    I was actually referring to the "instant gratification" type of rider that
    Mary M. mentioned in her reply titled, "bingo".  In fact, ellie 
    characterized one such rider very well in her     reply 10.622. You made 
    the other point that I had in mind. An unskilled rider can UN-MAKE a horse 
    faster than a skilled rider can make one!
    
    In any event, I humbly apologize for my gross and inaccurate
    generalization.
    
    John(who ought to know better)

    Getting back to the original topic (I think.  We've gotten so far off
    on tangents and down ratholes I'm not sure what the original topic was
    ;-)  I was thinking in the wee hours this morning (after I woke myself
    up coughing) about some of the differences between t-breds and
    warmbloods.  Earlier on, someone (was it you John?) mentioned that he
    or she thought warmbloods can be trained faster than t-breds.  I would
    like to modify that statement a bit.  I think warmbloods -- due to
    their combined temperament plus natural carriage -- move more quickly 
    through the *lower* levels.  I think if you invest the longer time into
    the hotbloods, they make it up at the backend.  That is, once they
    settle in, things begin to drop into place.  I think that when properly 
    re-directed, their higher energy levels can really help.
    
    Mary

	I think I agree with you Mary, although I'd like to say it
	in my own words and see if you agree.  I think your point is 
	somewhat related to the 'tortoise and the hare' analogy where 
	you believe, and I think John does too, that  warmbloods' temperaments
	allow them to handle the tricks of new movements, however
 	it doesn't mean they can fully confirm these movements
	any faster than a TB.   I would tend to agree with that.
	
	I think we all agree that either category (warmblood or TB)
	can achieve excellence in dressage.  The obvious difference
	is the training approach used to achieve excellence.  

	Melinda
	
	

    Yes.  And also, their temperaments make them steadier and more reliable 
    at an earlier age, so that they compete better earlier on.  While the
    average t-bred may take longer to learn earlier on, or is less
    reliable earlier on, due to temperament.  And all things being equal,
    they even out in the end.
    
    And I would add that with both types, the "standard challenges" are
    minimal with the best of the breed.
    
    I'm finding that Algiers presents an interesting twist to this.  He 
    learns phenomenally fast (faster than most people I know :-), takes a 
    little longer to be confirmed, but takes a long time to be reliable 
    because if its not interesting enough his attention wanders and he likes 
    to test and tease (for his own amusement, naturally)!  For example, it
    took 8 months for his basic steering to be confirmed.  But he is
    becoming more reliable over time, as he feels more challenged by the work.
    
    Mary

    Doncha love it when we all agree? Does that mean we got something right
    or that we're all wacko in the same way? :-)
    
    Seriously though, I agree with what you both said in the past couple
    replies about the differences in temperament and how it affects
    training approach. BTW, I really ENJOY the kind of challenge Mary is
    facing right now w/ Algiers...where the horse tries all sorts of
    diversions/evasions in a playful sort of mental chess game. I can't wait 
    to ride each day to see what the horse will dream up next. I had one
    that would invent things to do when bored w/ the lesson of the day. One
    day, I got tired of playing her game. I dropped the reins and sat
    chilly, letting her do whatever exercise she wanted. She walked quietly
    around the arena, did a few circles, then wove in and out through a
    line of traffic cones we had set up parallel to the centerline.
    Basically, she had a good time and it was as useful as the lesson I had
    planned. She was still in a very early stage of training and I was
    working on lateral flexibility. But I digress from my main point.
    
    The article I mentioned in an earlier note about the FEI symposium had
    comments by the panel of judges on video taped rides by Michael Klimke
    (Reiner Klimke's son) on Entertainer and Sven Rothenberger(sp?) on Andiamo. 
    Their comments on Klimke and Entertainer reinforced what we have just 
    agreed on: Warmbloods have a temperament that allows them to be pushed a 
    bit faster in their training. The panel thought that Entertainer had been 
    pushed a bit in his early training(not done by Klimke) and therefore 
    Entertainer lacked basic flexibility. They also felt that Michael Klimke's 
    soft style of riding was just what the horse needed and that Klimke was 
    making great progress in correcting the horse's stiffness.
    
    Their comments on Andiamo reinforce the point I was trying to make
    about "buying your way into higher levels". They felt that Andiamo had 
    been trained well to Gran Prix Level but that he had deteriorated
    since being bought by Rothenberger. They felt that Rothenberger was
    spending to much time doing Gran Prix work which the horse could
    already do brilliantly and ignoring work on the basics. 
    
    If a good well trained rider can mess up a horse that they're not ready for 
    or that they take in a training direction that is wrong for that horse, 
    what is the likelihood that a beginner can buy a good horse and keep it 
    good?