Conference noted::bicycle

Three or four years ago I bought a Yakima (made in Washingdon State) rack and
accessories for bikes and skiis. I like it. The rack is very strong and the
accessories are solid work well. With optional lock cores (which I bought), the
rack can be locked to the vehicle. Similarly, the Button-Down ski holders also
can contain lock cores to lock the items to the rack (all with a common key).
The bike holder I have (the short rear-wheel tray and front fork mount) does
not allow the bike to be locked to the rack. I think that there is an optional
cable-lock device one can buy, and/or perhaps the upright-style bike mount
(where the front wheel stays on the bike) allows locking of the bike. 

The vehicle for which I bought the rack was a Toyota Tercell wagon, which had
rain gutters. After a one-time set-up, the rack was very easy to install and
remove from the vehicle. Last fall I bought a Dodge Grand Caravan, for which
the old-style towers (the vertical component which attaches the rack's
cross-bars to the vehicle) do not work. I bought a new set of towers that are
suitable for the Caravan. These towers attach to the factory-mount roof-rack on
the Caravan (rather than directly to the skin of the Caravan). 

These new towers work OK, but not as well as the old-style towers I originally
used with the Tercell. The old-style towers were rigidly fixed to the cross
bars once the one-time set-up was done; as a result, putting the rack on the
vehicle required no adjustments at all -- just place and tighten. 

The new towers are loose on the cross-bars until the whole assembly is placed
on the vehicle's roof-rack, adjusted, and tightened. This makes installation
slower and more of a fuss. As a result, I left the rack on the vehicle this
winter (unlike past winters when I removed it after each use). 
						-- Tom

I'm partial to my Yakima, although Thule seems more popular here in New England.
I think they are both excellent choices and you have to try them both to see
which fits your car better.  The round load-carrying bars on Yakima make it
slightly easier to fit.  They are within a couple bucks (I think I paid $315 for
the Yakima, and the Thule equivalent was +/- $10) of each other.  They both
offer various locking options.  Yakima (I don't know about Thule) has the
lockjaw which holds the bike upright, and lets you carry with both wheels
attached.  The lockjaw has a SKS (Same Key System) core as well.  The fork-mount
style has a lock available for the QR.  I lock my bike to the rack with a cable
or a U-lock.  I tend not to leave my bike on top of my car any place I don't
feel it is fairly safe anyway.  One suggestion I might make -- Yakima has two
styles of trays, a full-length tray, and a two piece.  Certain cars recommend
one over the other.  I like the full-length tray (and I have two, and there is
only one of me, and I think exactly 2 times in my life have there been two bikes
on the car at once) because it adds rigidity to the rack.  I can take the whole
thing off in one piece and put it back in one piece.  I.e., the trays keep the
cross bars "square."  Get the fairing because they are noisy without it.  Come
by ZKO some time and you can see how it works, if you want.  Bring your bike. 
We'll go for a ride.

Tim

    Thanks for the inputs and the invite! I keep thinking about getting
    down to ZKO for a ride with you guys. Maybe we'll hook up this summer.
    
    By the looks of the weather, I'll a have a week or two to make a
    decision on the rack?
    
    Pray hard for sun and warm weather.
    
    Chip

We can always hook up with you out in Hollis someplace...

    Chip,

>    I did a DIR/TITLE search and came up empty.

    Dir/TITLE=RACK shows lots o' notes dealing with bike racks, or are you
    looking for something specific to the Sube? Note 204 has a wealth of info.

>    There are 3 important points (features) I'm looking for from the rack;
>    1) Locking the bikes and rack 2) minimum of two bikes 3) I don't want
>    to have to drill holes in my new car.
    
    I've got a Thule. The bars lock to the roof (all keyed alike), you can buy
    locks that lock the bike to the bike tray, though I prefer snaking a bike
    lock thru the frame and the tray rather than dealing with another lock.
    Depending on how many locks you need, Thule sells lock kits in sets of 
    2, 4, 6 or 8. Note that I've not found a Thule accessory that locks the 
    trays to the bars, though I've never worried about somebody swiping the 
    trays. 

    I first had the rack on the roof of my 4Runner and carried 4 mountain bikes
    on it, staggering them forward and backward to accommodate the handlebars.
    Since selling the 4Runner, I've moved the rack over to the Sable, and
    simply had to switch to their gutterless mounting system and foot pack.

    I've also added a ski carrier this winter, piece of cake.

    Unless your Sube has a short roofline, you should not have to drill holes
    in your car. There was a gutter extension kit for my 4Runner that required
    holes to be drilled if you didn't want the bars placed just over the cab.
    Even though there were gutters on the fiberglass roof behind the cab, it
    was unsafe to mount the rack on them, hence the gutter extension kit and
    the need to drill holes.

    -Dom

    Tim, I'll be sure to force myself into a ZKO ride this summer. You guys
    do Fridays, correct? I could always run down there for your ride and
    then vacation the rest of the afternoon :-).
    
    Dom, thanks for the inputs. I'm already preparing my wife for the
    additional expense of the rack. 
    
    Chip

    Chip, there are alternatives to Thule and Yakima that may be more
    reasonable.  Saris is advertised in Nashbar and has all the necessary
    accessories and Mondial which is made by Bell.  Not as well known yet
    and availability is low.  Ski Market carries them.  The second two are
    both systems as well so you have a choice of accessories for whatever
    your load carrying needs are.  I have the Yakima but I could never get
    it to fit well on my Taurus.  I'll hang on to it for when I get my
    Explorer though ;-).  
    
    Brian

Two important points:

1. Yakima DOES have locking trays (at least the front locks, which leaves the
rear bolting hardware and wheel tie-down vulnerable to theft.)  -- This might be
optional, I don't remember.  I think it was extra.

2. I have learned one thing in this business: Cheap stuff is enjoyable from the
moment you whip out the plastic until the moment you use it.  Then, it goes down
hill quickly.  I would be very hesitant to trust my bike to anything but a Thule
or Yakima.  Chip's bike cost many times what mine does.

Chip -- we don't really have a set schedule.  Last year we kind of had MWF =
easy(ier) days and TT = hard(er) days.  I will be riding less at lunch and more
in the evenings with my team.  I'll still ride at lunch, but I probably won't be
as regular as last year.  Friday will probably tend to be an "easy" day.  Some
variation will occur over the season, to accomodate peaking and races and all.

I am ***NOT*** falling into the RIDE HARD EVERY DAY trap again this year.  I
will let people ride away from me if that is the case.


Tim

    I did notice those two systems in the catalog. I will be scoping out
    both the Yakima and the Thule systems. 
    
    I really don't want to do the bargain thing on this investment.
    
    Chip

FWIW, most catalogs have hefty shipping charges for racks -- you may be better
off going to your LBS.  Wheelworks definitely has a complete selection of both
Thule & Yakima.  I bet Gamache's does too.

While we are on the topic -- Does anyone have opinions on the wheel holder
accessories?  I usually just toss the front wheel in the back seat or the trunk.
I guess if I was going someplace with a full load, I might have space concerns.
Is there any real advantage to putting the front wheel on the roof rack?  Space?
Cleanliness of the car interior?  What else??

Tim

RE: <<< Note 3187.10 by TLE::LUCIA "http://asaab.zko.dec.com/~lucia/biography.html" >>>

>FWIW, most catalogs have hefty shipping charges for racks -- you may be better
>off going to your LBS.

For what it's worth, I bought my Yakima rack and accessories from the REI store
in Reading, MA. The price was OK and you get a yearly REI rebate as well.

>Does anyone have opinions on the wheel holder accessories?

I use the Yakima fork accessory to carry my bike's (detached) front wheel on
the rack. 

The main reason I carry the front wheel on the rack is to avoid the need to
devote a lot of interior space to the wheel, and to prevent the grime on the
wheel (of which my wheels have a lot, what with frequent wet-weather riding)
from messing up the vehicle interior.
						-- Tom

    Mountain Side Ski Shop at Wachusett carries Yakima as does Gearworks.  
    Gamaches carries Thule I believe and so does Sport Loft in Fitchburg
    and EMS at all locations.  
    
    Regarding the other brands, I wouldn't necessarily discount them as being 
    cheapies.  I believe they are rated for the same loads as the others.  The 
    problem seems to be market penetration is not there being the new kids on 
    the block.  Ski Market is the only place in the are that carries the 
    Mondial stuff so finding accessories or parts may be an issue.  
    
    A friend of mine has the Yakima wheel holder and his wheel keeps flying
    off the top of his truck.  Some other friends have the Thule holder and
    hey hav no problems.  I think friend number one's problem is less 
    equipment related and more pilot error :-).  We simply pile ours in the 
    back also.    
    
    Brian

My primary concern with the wheels outside is that the hubs might get the grease
blown out of them.  I hate to put my bike on the roof in the winter or the rain
because of all the grime from the road.  Even with the bugoff cover, it still
gets grimy.  Chip works in Nashua, so saving $60+ in sales tax may be a
consideration.  I do dearly love Wheelworks as far as a shop goes, but I really
don't like giving 5% to the commonwealth.

I suspect it is true about penetration, but I'm not willing to risk my $1.5K
bike.  I got a recommendation from a touring company (organized tours) run by a
friend of my brothers for Yakima over Thule ONLY because Yakima customer service
was better.  Quality-wise, he claims they are equals.

As for my car, well, any seat but mine is likely to have bike parts, clothes,
accessories, wheels, etc. on it.

Tim

>My primary concern with the wheels outside is that the hubs might get the grease
>blown out of them.  I hate to put my bike on the roof in the winter or the rain
>because of all the grime from the road.  Even with the bugoff cover, it still

Id be surprised if you lost any grease.  Some folks dont like wheels on the
roof because they take up room on the rack, so they buy a 3rd bar for wheels
only on the trunk.  Others dont like them to spin, Im not sure why (noise?
vibration?) and use all sorts of ways to prevent spinning.

>gets grimy.  Chip works in Nashua, so saving $60+ in sales tax may be a

$60 sales tax - ouch.  That means $1200 rack!   For much much less (~$50-100
a couple years ago depending on model) you could get a rear rack from Rhode
Gear.  They work great.  You still get the road dirt problem, but there
are several methods to prevent sway.

.02
--roger

Oh yeah, you asked why people might want the wheels out of the car....

Racers might offer the following:

Because wheels in the car take up passenger space, which means more people
have to drive.  That makes parking together more difficult, and requires
more gas/racer (== more money).  You cant put wheels in the trunk because
everyones junk goes there, and junk cant go on the roof since duffle bags 
dont fit on a rack too well.

Oops, typo or bad math, not sure which.  $15-20 worth of tax on the Yakima or
Thule with locks and two trays and a fairing.

So the reasons are just as I suspected, i.e., space and cleanliness.  Since I
only have room for two bikes (two trays), I can only take one other racer with
me, so that leaves the back seat and the trunk for junk + wheels.  Or, the trunk
for bike #3, the back seat for racer #3, bags, food and wheels.  Three ought to
work pretty well.

I suppose we could combine some racks for some of the far away (Maine/VT)
races...

If we only had a team van...

Tim

    I've often wondered - why take the wheels off at all? Just to lower the
    height of the bike on the rack? For me, with 4 bikes on the rack it's not
    an option. Just something else to have to do and with that many bikes the 
    only place for the wheels is on the bikes themselves. Besides, I'd 
    probably wind up leaving a wheel somewhere.

    Chip, you'll probably find that prices on Thule components are pretty
    much the same from store to store. When I recently purchased a foot pack
    and fit kit for the Sable, the prices at Goodale's and Buchika's were
    identical. Both stores said that Thule never goes on sale, but I vaguely
    recall a sale when I bought my rack a few years back at Chelmsford
    Cyclery. I believe the price, even with Mass sales tax was cheaper than
    any of the NH bike shops. 

    Best bet is to visit some bike shops to look at both Thule and Yakima and
    decide which one is best for you.

    -Dom

Tim--

If you put bikes on the racks in opposite directions and appropriately offset
the pedals, you should be able to carry 4, even on the regular (Yakima) bars.

As for a van, theres a motor home for sale on rt 13, i think in milford, at
the autobody place with the porsche bursting through the 2nd story wall....

--roger

Roger,

I meant I only HAVE two trays...  I could buy more trays, but I have used tray
#2 only twice in my life...

Tim

    Chip, Subaru makes a bike rack that meets all your requirements.  I 
    recently purchased an Outback and took two bikes to Florida with no
    problems.  It locks, carries two bikes, and no drilling.  I ordered 
    it from the dealer in Milford.  The bad news is that it costs ~$260,
    but it frees up the inside of your wagon.

    Thanks! I'm waiting for my deflector so I'll buzz them on the bike
    rack.
    
    Chip

 Chip,

 If your Suburau Legacy has the factory roof rack, then you can not buy a
 Thule. They don't have anything that fit that factory roof rack system
 yet. My  neighbor went through this with his Legacy wagon and he ended up
 with the Yakima. I also double checked on the Thule book this weekend when
 I was in the store.

 As with the wheel holders, the only time I use mine for 2 reasons:

 1) Mountain biking because the wheel gets too dirty to put it inside
 2) On Vacation due to extra luggage space.

 Otherwise, I hate putting the wheel holder on the bars and putting the
 wheel on the holder because it's usually in teh middle of the rack and
 it's though to tighten the QR since you have to hold both sides of the
 skewer.



 Dave

    One thing I did right... In anticipation of need a rack I did not
    order their roof rack.
    
    I just saw a car like mine with the Yakima system on it (no fairing).
    
    Thanks for the info...
    
    Chip

    
    Is it easier to mount a bike on a fork mounted Thule or a fork mounted
    Yakima or are they both the same?   I have a Cannondale bike, and I
    don't plan to file off the safety tabs.
    
    Thank you for any advice.
    
    Jean

Chip,

If you can wait until the annual Supersale on April 3-6, I believe that
Yakima racks are discounted about 15%.  See this month's Bicycling
Magazine for details.

Ray

re .24 (easier fork mount)

I believe the two rack systems are substanially the same.  The fork mount
is quite similar to a quick release front hub welded to a mount.  I suspect
you will do lots of qr adjustment with either rack.

re .25 (super sale)

who has the super sale?

--roger

Roger,

Just about every shop partakes of SuperSale.  The manufacturers offer some good
deals on various products and the shops generally take 10% off everything else. 
Good time to restock.

Of course, folks like us who are sponsored get our 10+% off any time we want it,
so I'll be staying away from the madness.  SuperSale happens twice a year, first
weekend of April and sometime in fall.


I have a Yakima rack and a Cannondale.  I filed the tabs off.  This gives you
two advantages -- first, you don't need to adjust the skewers on your wheels,
nor do you have to adjust the skewer on the roof rack.  Second, if you race, and
you need a wheel change, you will have to muck with the skewer to get it past
the lawyer tabs.

My fixed gear is particularly bad, since it predates quick-release.  It had
solid axles, with washers and nuts.  And the "tabs" are large steel pieces that
circle the entire dropout.  It would take a while to file these down.  Plus,
since it is steel, I'd rather leave the paint.  It is a PAIN to put the wheel
on/off and the bike on/off the car rack.  I may take a grinder to it yet.

Why are you opposed to removing the tabs?

Tim

>Just about every shop partakes of SuperSale.  The manufacturers offer some good
>deals on various products and the shops generally take 10% off everything else. 

This is a bike industry thing?  Guess I should spend more time in a shop,
and less on the bike.....

> Why are you opposed to removing the tabs?

I suspect this is actually directed to .25

--roger

    It depends upon which Thule or Yakima system you are using.  They both
    now offer long throw fork mounts that are set and forget to get past
    the liability lugs but still snugly affix the fork to the rack.  The
    older style were both essentially plain old quick releases for the
    non-locking or fancy quick release skewers for the locking type.  I saw
    the Mondial system yesterday, made by Rhode Gear/Bell.  Nice rig,
    seemed sturdy.  Has an aero design and the locks etc. were all hidden
    behind little access doors so they don't show or get all gunked up. 
    The '97 Thule stuff looked pretty good too.  
    
    Brian

Do you know if the "long throw" QR are available as upgrades to older racks?

Tim

    I believe they are.  I thought I remembered seeing this advertised in
    the Yakima catalog.

Either Thule or Yakima (or both) are 15% off at SuperSale participating stores
next weekend (Belmont Wheelworks is definitely one of them.)

Tim

[I can't remember which and I don't have the flyer in front of me]

    I really want to thank you guys for all the help. I'm going with the
    Thule system (special to thanks Claire). 
    
    I'll be getting the system from Gamache's. I get the special discount
    from them because they generally get most of my income every season
    :-).
    
    Thanks again,
    
     Chip

    both Yakima and Thule are on sale.
    The supersale is April 4-7.
    .... I have the flyer in front of me :-)
    -Larry

    Well, I picked up the rack and had installed this past Friday.
    
    While I haven't actually mounted a bicycle on the rack yet, I'm
    very happy with the looks and the convenience of being able to
    take it off and put it back on.
    
    Gamache gave me the Nault SuperSale discount of 15% off.
    
    Chip

    One more car rack related question. Since I will be covering a lot
    miles, from time to time, with the bike upstairs I was considering
    investing in bike covers to avoid extreme drenching in lousy weather,
    bug decals and general road/grime.
    
    Good idea or bad?
    
    Chip

Chip,
	Do you have a garage?  I know of two people who have driven their
	bicycles into the garage while they were in the rack.

	This does damage to the bikes, rack and car.

	I always put a trashcan in the middle of the garage so that I need
	to stop and get out of the car when ever I have bikes on the rack

    A trash bag over your seat will keep if from the elements.  Yakima and
    I suppose Thule both offer bras for the front of the bike to keep road
    grit and bugs from your front end, controls etc.  I haven't seen a full
    cover for the bike for rack use though. 

I have a Performance "Bug Off" or some such thing.  It does a great job keeping
the bike clean.  It's not too much effort to put on and off.  I only use it for
longish drives and on the highway.  At city-road speeds, the bugs don't tend to
stick!

If it is raining, or wet, the bike usually goes in the trunk.  I'm not opposed
to the rain, but rather the road grime and oil kicked up off the tires in front
of me.

Tim

    re; garage... Yes, I have one, but the only available space is
                  an aisle from the basement door to the garage door
                  to get my bicycles out. :-)
    
    re; bike covers... I am more concerned about bearings, particularly
                  the headset and the effects created by a driving rain
                  and just general crap making the bike filthy and making
                  me feel obligated to clean it more than I do now.
    
    I haven't seen 100% full covers for use on racks. There are covers that
    that are waterproof and cover the entire front of the bicycle and seat,
    but leave the rest exposed. The front looks wide enough to deflect
    most, if not all, of rain and, certainly, crap.
    
    I'll bet they're noisy, however. I would only use them in inclement
    weather or on longer trips (vacations).
    
    Chip
    
    

    Thanks Tim. Those are the ones I am looking. Performance is offering a
    "whopping" $5.00 off the road and ATB models. I'll need one of each.
    
    I was just wondering if folks saw value in them. I trust your judgement
    on this one.
    
    Chip

They will protect your headset and your hubs against driving rain.  Again,
primarily they are useful on the highway.

Tim

    Just an FYI Tim, everytime I try and answer your notes I get a
    failed message. For some reason it just doesn't want to let me
    use the "respond" option (and it should work).
    
    I just wanted to let you know I wasn't ignoring you.
    
    Chip

    I'm unable to send you mail either Tim.
    
    I'm using MS Exchange......wonder if that has anything to do with it.
    
    Linda

    
    	I sent him something via VMS ... if it fails I'll let you know
    	what the failure mode was.
    

re:                <<< Note 3187.46 by DELNI::LBASSETT "Design" >>>

>     I'm unable to send you mail either Tim.
>     
>     I'm using MS Exchange......wonder if that has anything to do with it.
    
    It probably has everthing to do with it. Chip is probably
    using Exchange Mail as well. From Exchange you would need
    to address mail to Tim like so:

        STMP:[email protected]

    Regards,
    Bob Anderson

    
    	sMTp might work better, but you shouldn't need it.
    
    	[email protected]
    
    	should suffice from within Exchange.
    

    
    	And BTW, VMS MAIL went through just fine.
    

    After a few iterations I got [email protected] to go through as well.
    
    All these improvement strategies and upgrades are wonderful, aren't
    they? :-)
    
    Chip

    
    	Once Tim gets onto Exchange it'll be much better.
    
    	I like the fact that you can cut/paste a portion of an Excel
    	spreadsheet into a message if you want.  Pretty neat.
    

    You can have some fun with clipart too!
    
    Chip

There is already a standard, RFC 802, aka "mime" -- The unix and IP machines of
the world all speak this JUST FINE.  Throw in those few % of internet users on
VMS or Exchange and BOOM.

I don't suspect I'll be using exchange.

And, FWIW, the mail router here in zko (i.e. "zko.dec.com") was offline for a
little while last night and this morning.

    ...rumor has it all A1 and VMS mail accounts will be nuked.
    
    Chip

    Yeah!! 'bout time!  We are finally advancing into the next century
    where the rest of the world has been for a while now! 
    
    sorry vms lovers....i used to one of you but not anymore!  yikes!

I've seen a rack that attaches to a trailer hitch-like thing on a Saab
convertible. It seemed like a sturdy rack and looked like you could
remove it at the hitch, when not in use. I don't have a convertible
now, but hopefully some day...

The thing that I'd really need is something that would easily carry
a bike or two in summer and skis in the winter.

I've got one of those Rhode Gear adjustable racks, but it's a pain to
put on and take off. I generally just throw the bike(s) or skis in the
back of my hatchback.

I like Thule and Yakima, but I don't think a rooftop rack works without
a roof. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
-Jeff