Conference noted::bicycle

As far as a chain cleaner goes I've been using a Park model for two years and it
works great.  Try using White Lightening chain lube, the "self cleaning lube". 
I've been using it on my mountain bike for the past year and have noticed a
dramatic improvement in the cleanliness of my drivetrain.  I clean and degrease
about 50% less than I did with Tri Flow, Finish Line, or Pedro's.

					Shawn

    Jeff,
    The best chain cleaner is an old tooth brush and one of the citrus 
    degreasers.Sory for being so low tech,but that's all that's in one of
    those fangled chain cleaners.And you realy should talk to your shop
    about a full sizesd pump.Those mini pumps suck and not blow like they 
    should.You should have no trouble finding a place to store it behind
    your seat tube.Wedged inbetween the top of the seat stay and the b.b.
    end of your chain stay.Either that or you could get one of those CO2
    do-dads.I have one and it works great on the road bike.I have a old
    full sized zefald for the woods bike though.But what ever you do 
    have alot of fun on your new bike and I hope to see you in the woods.
    Oh ya I don't care what any body says Pedros is the best by far even
    if it is a little more work.
    
                                     Later 
    
                                     Jack Barter
    

>>I was hoping to do it without removing the chain and have seen those 
>>gadgets in the Performance catalog. Are the on the bike chain cleaners any 
>>good? If so, which one?

Cleaning the chain alone seems like a waste of time - what about the rest?
Do it properly, take off the chain, dismount the rings and the sprockets!!
I rode 150 km Sunday before last of which 70 were in torrential rain and on 
less than desirable roads.  I reckon the whole clean-up job on the 
transmission took less than 30' - it's a gift now with Campag splined 
sprockets.  A mixture of diesel and oil is fine, you don't need to go 
eco-crazy, just make sure you dispose of it at the right place and don't tip 
it into the nearest stream ...

With Pedro's I cleaned the drivetrain three times a week.  With White Lightening
I clean it three times a month!

-1 That's odd. I use Pedros on my road machine and my
   and don't think it's bad at all.

   I'm with Robin on this one. I use laquer thinner.
   Nasty stuff, but dispatches the gunk immediately.
   You've got to clean the rings, cogs, and derailleur
   pulleys or you're just going to pick up the gunk
   off these components with your brand new, nice and clean
   lube. 

   Chain cleaners work great for that quick clean-up. Nothing 
   beats removing the chain and having at it with a toothbrush
   (as was mentioned in an earlier note).

   Also, if you want to be green and cheap at the same time
   simply use a combination of dish washing detergent and 
   water in your chain cleaner. It works just as well, if
   not better than that citrus stuff you pay an arm and a
   leg for (in comparison).

   Chip 

When I speak of Pedro's I'm talking about my mountain bike.  It may be good on
the road, but it's a dirt magnet in the mud and gunk.

-1 I use it on my mountain bike also (as stated).

   Maybe the gunk in my area is less sticky?

The places I ride have millions of mud bogs, followed by swamp land, followed by
sand.  After going through this with pedro's it makes a lovely mixture with the
consistency of pudding.  With White Lightening nothing sticks to the chain at all

    Citrus degreasers can be had at your local machine shop.Most of them
    are so closely monitored (EPA wise)that they are now using non
    hydrocarbon solvents.
    
                             Jack
    

    I've been using White Lightning this year as an experiment on a new 
    chain. I think it works quite well, and there is no question 
    that it doesn't attract and hold dirt and grime like an oil product.
    Even if you handle the chain, or get a chainring leg tattoo, it's very
    minor and washes off easily.
    
    On the other hand, the drivetrain is a bit noisier, and supposedly it
    doesn't hold up in the wet for long.  But that's OK, I use my other
    bike (with Pedro's SynLube) when it's wet anyway.  BTW, I'm talking
    about road bikes here.
    
    rob

-1 Remember, noise is friction. Friction is wear.

    
    Dust and dirt mixed into oil is just like 'Soft Scrub(TM)', real quite,
    real smooth, but don't use it on your Iridium sunglasses.
       

-1 Well, I don't know what kind of dirt you have in your
   area, but sand and dirt in my drive chain makes 
   plenty of noise.

   This isn't "sawdust in a crankcase" analogy, is it?

   Chip

    
    If the dirt in your drive chain has reached the "plenty of noise"
    level, then whether you're using 3-in-1 or Teflon spray is not
    going to make a whole lotta difference.  The drivechain needs a
    good blast with a hose or something similar.  The difference between
    stuff like White Lightening, Pedros, and Finish Line is noticeable
    when you compare their adhesive abilities to chalky, fine grain dirt
    and dust.  This is the stuff that wears down your teeth and links,
    not the course grain stuff, and it doesn't make a lot of noise (well,
    unless its _completely_ dried out, which only happens if you don't
    have any lube at all, even water will help if in this situation!).
    

    I've had no problem with White Lightening and water, or any increased
    noise for that matter.  Had my drivetrain submerged for 100 yards
    yesterday with no ill effects to the lube.  If it's making noise you
    might no be using enough.  Backspin you cranks and keep putting it on
    until you see that first drop fall to the floor, let it dry and don't
    wipe your chain.  If it's still making noise then it sounds like the
    drivetrain needs a good cleaning

Re .1:

I bought the Finish Line cleaner, in preference to the other cleaner sold at
Goodale's (Park?).  With the one I avoided, you have to hold it on the chain
with one hand, spin the crank with the other hand, and keep sporadically
pressing a button with your 11th finger to dispense the cleaner.  Furthermore,
the cleaner is opaque, so you don't know what's going on inside.  The Finish
Line cleaner dips the chain in a bath of solvent before the internal scrubbing
wheels - no fuss, effective and only uses an ounce of solvent.

Cleaning der sprockets is something else entirely.
				/AHM

With the Park you're not running the chain back through all the crud you're
trying to remove.  By pushing that little button you're always using fresh
degreaser. 

					Shawn

    
    
    	I've been using AT (automatic transmission) fluid on my drivetrain.
    
    	I put it in plastic shampoo bottle.  Easy on...easy off.....
    
    	Excellent protction from wear.  It does tend to hang on to dirt
    
    	but allows easy cleaning afterwards with just a garden hose.
    
    	Not to mention...cheap and plentiful
    
    	Chris

    
    
    	And for weekly (ahem.) cleaning I bought a spray bottle of
    	citrus degreaser from the local auto supple.  Along with the 
    	jumbo refill cost about 8 bucks.  Works well...
    
    	Chris

    
    Good tip.  Thanks.
    

     re .11 and on...
    
    I guess the word "noise" is too strong a word.  This is not an extreme 
    case by any means.  What I meant is I can slightly hear the drivetrain 
    (using White Lightning) a bit more than with a clean chain and fresh 
    oil-based lube.  All in all, it's quite clean and quiet.

    Simple green works well for me for a quick cleanup on my road bike. I
    spray it on the cassette, chain and rings (all on the bike), scrub it
    with a brush and rinse with the hose. It sparkles. Then I just relube
    the chain and I'm good to go.
    
    Ron

    Be careful with some of the automotive degreasers and certain plastics. 
    There was a problem with the plastic used in Grip Shift and Shimano's
    Rapidfire shifters in that certain degreasers would eat the plastic.

    for a quick chain clean i go down to my local power wash and blast the
    beejeezus out of the chain while it is on the bike. I do this on a
    sunny day so that once the cleaning is finished I just pop the chain
    off, hang it near by or over my handle bars, light a smoke, relax and
    then after 20 min put the chain back on the bike and oil. The only
    benifit to this method is that your hands dont get dirty. The big minus
    for this method is that you might blast the grease out of the rear
    cluster ifin your not careful. 
    
    but i must agree with most folks here and that is if you clean the
    chain you must clean all the parts the chain touches or your wasting
    time. if your organized you can pop the chain off at night, clean the
    rest of the power train while the chain soaks in some kinda solvent
    overnight, then first thing in the morning apply oil and wham! bob is
    your uncle and your chain is as good as new.

After reading many of the replies to this note (I was the original poster), I
decided to try the Simple Green and garden hose method. This worked incredibly
well and I agree with the others that said I should clean the whole drivetrain
and not just the chain.

Oh, I also used a high tech chain cleaning gadget (toothbrush soaking in Simple
Green) to help and I did let it soak overnight. My chain and drivertrain sparkle
now.

I let it dry and then lubed the chain with Tri-Flow.

Thanks for the suggestions.

-Jeff

    
    	Will Simple Green remove "brake residue" from wheels also?
    
    	I tried alcohol on mine [Cannondale H400] to no avail.
    

    Dawn and/or gasoline are my two fav's.  I don't get too hung up on
    using a cup of gasoline after the bike saves 300+ gallons a year
    in commuting.  Don't blow yourself up tho.
    Kratz

>     Dawn and/or gasoline are my two fav's.  I don't get too hung up on

Will the gasoline corrode the tires?


.02
--roger

    
    	RE: .28
    
    	That's what I was just wondering ... gasoline and rubber are
    	not a good combination.
    
    	Of course, if I were to buy a set of titanium tires then I'd
    	have nothing to worry about.  8^)
    

I use citrus-based cleaners to clean my bike's rims of brake-pad residue, and
this works very well. Given how effective and how user-safe citrus cleaners
are, I personally won't use gasoline as a cleaner again. 
						-- Tom

    
    	You mean like Lemon Pledge?
    

RE: <<< Note 3090.31 by BUSY::SLABOUNTY "Go Go Gophers watch them go go go!" >>>
    
>    	You mean like Lemon Pledge?

No, I haven't tried that. I can't recall brand names I've used, but these are
relatively recent (~4 years) cleaners/degreasers that use citrus extracts as
the actual cleaner/solvent (as opposed to merely being a perfume). After
soaking and/or scrubbing, you rince with water to emulsify the cleaner and
carry away the grime. Such cleaners/degreasers are available in bike shops for
sure, probably big department stores, but not the supermarkets (big
food/grocery stores) that I've checked. I've found them to work extremely well,
and to have a pleasant, if somewhat strong, citrus odor.
						-- Tom

    
    	Thanks!!
    

	Isn't Lemon Pledge a cleaner AND a wax?

	George

    
    	No, it's a dessert topping AND a floor wax.
    

I checked last night, and Citra-Solve is the name of the citrus cleaner that I
currently have.
						-- Tom

    Just a comment about White Lightning: I tried it last weekend for the
    first time. After reading the instructions, which recommended an
    initial cleaning of the chain and cogs, I made three full passes at
    de-greasing the components, using citrus de-greaser. They shined up pretty 
    well and the solvent came off the parts pretty clean at the end. Then I 
    applied the W L and was amazed at the amount of gunk that stuff pulled out 
    of the chain and all it contacted. To be fair, I expect that a lot of the 
    dirt was lurking inside the chain, but the point is, nothing else got it 
    out before the W L went to work.
    	For the curious out there, it's not very expensive, it's easy to
    use, and maybe you'll find something you'll like if you try it.
    
    All disclaimers apply here.
    
    Fred

I have been using White Lighting since the middle of last summer.  I was tired
of getting funny black marks on my right leg.  I cleaned the whole drive train
and applied the White Lighting.  The drive train was a lot quieter ( I think it
was quieter because it was clean) and no more black marks, you can grab the
chain with your hands and not get dirty.

After a number of applications I have had to clean the idler pulleys because of
the White Lighting build up.  White Lighting seems to be a little like a sticky
wax, so I have seen it build up on the sprokets and chain.  But the drive train
on the Road and Mountain bike is still clean and quiet. No more chain ring
tattoos.

Brad

That's really good to hear. I bought some at the end of last
the last season to try out this year. 

Chip

WL isessentially a wax, in suspension.  When the suspension evaporates, voila,
a waxed chain.  Lots of mixed reviews on the internet.  Some people say the
chain is louder, some say quieter.  It is clean however.  Touching the chain
using WL will almost never dirty your hands.  I used it last year with success.

I've heard that it does cause chains to wear faster than other lubricants and
that the recommended usage is quite often.  I do clean the whole drive train
completely at least every 2 weeks (every 250-300 miles or so) which I think is
there recommended interval.

How about Pedro's extra dry lube?  I was thinking of trying that out.  It will
be interesting, should I stay with WL, to see how it works on a brand new chain.
I too cleaned a used chain and found that the WL brought out even more dirt.

Tim

At the trade show this year, WL had a chain with 15,000 miles on it.  It was
lubed solely with WL and showed no signs of wear.  Could be just hype.

They also warn that the chain will be a little louder
than ususal. Psychologically speaking, this can wreak
havoc on the purist.

I do a complete drive train cleaning every 1000 miles or
so (we're talking chain and chainrings off the bike for
a good scrubbing, etc.). In between that 1000 miles I make
sure I clean off the chain, chainrings and cogs very well
and re-lube every week (minimum). 

Seems to work well for me.

|How about Pedro's extra dry lube?  I was thinking of trying that out.  It will
|be interesting, should I stay with WL, to see how it works on a brand new chain.
|I too cleaned a used chain and found that the WL brought out even more dirt.
    
    I used this for a while last year and didn't like it.  My chain was
    noisy and developed some surface rust.  I found that the chain would
    get noisy as little as thirty miles after applying Pedro's.
    
    Jamie

I've been a Pedro's guy for about 3-4 years now and 
am very happy with it. It does attract and hold a lot
gunk.

Chip

Chip,

You're happy with it, even though it attracts and holds a lot of gunk?  Gunk is
good?  Are your hands always black from the gunk?

Watch out for them cat 5 marks...
Tim

That's right, I am happy with it. I get great chain life and
chainrings and cogs last for thousands of miles. I really
don't mind the extra wiping of the chain, cogs and chain-
rings weekly.

I'm after performance, I try to avoid impaling myself on
the chainrings, the bike runs without noise, one bottle
lasts two seasons and all is right with the world (so far).

Chip

Last night, a guy at a bike shop (a wrench) said that WL is not too good in the
rain, damp, wet, salty winter conditions.  Ie, he said "this chain can't get
much drier".  I have been using WL... Anyone have a similar winter experience?

I'll probably give it a full season trial on a new chain.  

Tim