Conference noted::bicycle

Bikes have changed alot in the last 15-20 years, some of it positive, and some
simply doesn't affect the lower end bikes.  You can now buy 21 speed (and more)
bikes, whereas 10 was the most you could get in the 70's.  Many people didn't
even use all 10 of the speeds in 1979 and I bet few out there have used all
21 speeds on today's bikes.  I wouldn't let the number of gears be a deciding
factor in your purchase decision.

Components are the biggest change over 1979.  Even the lowest priced component 
today works smooothly and effectively.  That was not the case in 1979 where
low-end components were often poorly designed and/or manufactured.  If you have
a set of Campy Record or Suntour derailleurs from 1979, you are probably
equivalent to the middle-of-the-pack derailleurs (Alivio, STX) today.  If 
you have Simplex or a 1979 off-brand, you would be upgrading to go to the
lowest grade of derailleur today (Altus, SIS).

The other major area of change between 1979 and now is the frame.  Frame 
technology and manufacturing techniques have really advanced since 1979. An
expensive 1979 bike (500+) probably has a frame that is equivalent to a low-end
$400 bike today.  Most of the high-tech materials and designs go into the
over $600 bikes today, so you won't see that in the price range you are
considering.

To summarize, if your 1979 bike is in good condition, and if it was a good bike
in it's day with good components, there is no reason to run out and get a new
one.  Use the money you save to buy your wife more of a bike this year and buy
yourself a nice one next year or the year after.  If it's run down and needs
over $120 in parts and maintenance to get it on the road, then I would sell it
and apply the funds to your new bike.

Jim 

  >>Frame technology and manufacturing techniques have really 
  >>advanced since 1979.

	I'm in a similar situation to .0 and am thinking that
	sooner or later I'll need to trade in my 70's vintage
	trusty ol' bike. Could you say more about advances
	in frame technology?

			Thanks,  John

Aluminum and titanium frames were unheard of in the 1970's due to the
difficulty and expense of working with titanium and aluminum.  Now they are
fairly common in the expensive bikes, and even some of the low to medium priced
bikes have aluminum frames. Likewise, carbon fiber composites were available in
the 1970's only on ultra-expensive custom one-off racing bikes costing
thousands of dollars.  Now you can get a production version for $1000- $2500. 

In the steel (Chrome/Molly) area, straight-gauge tubing was the norm for most
low to mid-priced bikes.  With straight-gauge, the tubing is the same thickness
for the length of the tube. Many bike tubes were cut with a saw, rough
assembled using lugs, jigged by hand, and then machine welded. Double-butted
tubing was only available on the more expensive frames, and many of those were
cut, jigged, and welded by hand. (FYI double-butted tubing is thicker at the
ends and thinner in the middle to save weight). 

Now, frames are designed, tested, and assembled using CAD/CAM.  Double-butted
Cr/Mo steel tubing is much cheaper and has found its way into many  of the low
to moderate priced bikes.  Lugs are not a necessity because tubing can now be
precision cut using lasers and butt-welded using TIG.  The equivalent to that
custom $1500 Masi frame of 1979 can now be seen in a $600-900 road bike that is
robotically assembled, welded, and painted.  Add to that the improved
components and you have a superior quality bike today over some of the best
ones made in 1979. 

Like I said in my last message, a great (expensive) bike from the 70's is still
a good bike (but not a great bike) in the 90's.  I have a 1972 full Campy
Record Fuji Finest that has double-butted tubing throughout.  It only has 10
speeds, but it's fast, rides smoothly, and is incredibly quiet on the road.  I
paid $300 for it in 1972 and probably have another $300 investment in
components.  But I could buy a better bike today for around $500-600. 

Jim 

This chart is based on "road bikes" in the 70's vs "mountain bikes" or
"hybrids" in the 90's.  I worked part time in a bike shop in 1979-81 selling
and repairing road bikes.  Last month, I researched and purchased mountain
bikes for our family.  Road bikes in the 1990's should not be that different
in technology from mountain bikes in the 90's.  The main difference will be
the use of double butted Cr-Mo steel down into the lower midrange.


1970's Road Bikes
-----------------
o Low End - straight gauge plain carbon steel (no alloy elements), heavy Huffy
o Lower midrange - straight gauge plain carbon steel with low end components
o Upper midrange - straight gauge Cr-Mo steel, better components
o Lower high-end - Japanese or no-name double butted Cr-Mo steel, no name 
                   lugs, Japanese components
o Higher high-end - Reynolds 531 double butted Cr-Mo steel or Columbus double
                    butted tubing, Italian lugs (Campy was best), Campy 
                    Record components

1990's Mountain Bikes
---------------------
o Low low end - straight gauge plain carbon steel, very heavy ($99 at K-Mart)
o Low end - partial Cr-Mo frame, rest is plain carbon steel, low end 
            components ($150-350 bike)
o Lower midrange - all Cr-Mo frame, combination of low end and midrange 
                   components ($400-600)
o Upper midrange - Cr-Mo frame (lighter than the above) or aluminum 
                   frame, midrange to high-end component set ($500-900)
o High end - light but strong Cr-Mo steel, aluminum, titanium, or composite 
             frame, shock on front fork, special frame designs, high end 
             component set (over $900)

Jim

	As an engineer I appreciate all the nifty material and 
	contruction changes in the last 2 decades. But what difference 
	does that make in the ride? Maintenance? Durability?

	If all I wanted was a lighter bike, I'd take my
	2lb lock off 8^) (and maybe 2lbs of fat as well 8^)

				John

it can make a huge difference or noe at all depending what
kind of riding you intend to do.

Chip

There's not a lot of difference between a Cr-Mo double-butted frame made in the
70's and one made in the 90's.  The 70's frame may have more detail like
chromed lugs and hand painting.  The 90's frame may perform a little better due
to CAD modeling. 

The main difference is that efficiency of manufacturing makes the 90's frame
more affordable than the same general type of frame in the 70's.  If you
compare tiers (see a few notes back) in the 70's and in the 90's, you get more
for you money today than in the 70's (adjusted for inflation). Also, the
components are far better and less expensive now than in the 70's. 

Jim 

    re: .5
    
    For me, the two big differences between a 70's bike and a 90's bike
    are:
    
    	Indexed shifting.
    
    	And due to indexed shifting, STI shifting.
    
    I have found that I shift a lot more with the STI shifting than my
    down-tube indexed shifting as I can do it basically effortlessly.  I'm
    shifting in turns and other places that I wouldn't otherwise.
    
    HTH,
    
    Bob

    heaven help me for throwing in my two cents worth.
    
    Just adding to the better quality frames available at least in the 
    mid-range.  The frames can be stiffer than the older mid-range 
    frames... especially Aluminum frames.  So you have more choices 
    today.
    
    -Larry
    

    re: " I'm shifting in turns and other places that I wouldn't otherwise."
                                    
    Ahh, a closet shifter ?  :)
    Can't get enough contact with your bicycle ?  ;)
    Bicyclists Anonymous wants you !  %}

	Having looked a bit more and listened to the advice here, I
        decided I want a new bike for two reasons, indexed shifting and
        shift controls built into the brake levers.  My bike needs an
        overhaul and it feels like the wrong investment.  I'm going to
        get a cro-moly (spelling?) frame ('cause that's the price range
        I'm in and other reasons).  Thanks for the advice.

        John

>>        get a cro-moly (spelling?) frame ('cause that's the price range

"Steel frame with high quantities of Chromium (over 12%) and Molybdenun 
alloying elements"

Chromium gives it corrosion resistance and strength.  Moly gives it toughness
and impact resistance.  Carbon gives it strength.

Jim
(Who has a Masters in Ferrous Metallurgy)

The Chip answer to "should I buy a new bike?" is "YES"  -- how come I didn't see
it?  ;-)

$800 is about as low as I've seen STI-equipped bikes.

BTW, Am I the only one out there that thinks these welded frames are UGLY?  Some
of the welds are so big and so thick.  YUCKO!  I have a welded aluminum frame,
but from any distance over 1 foot, you really cannot tell it is welded, it was
done so smoothly.  Machine-welded looks WAY OVERKILL and ugly.  I love the look
of a nice lugged Italian machine.

Tim

Yes, what is it about Italian style?

I spoke to Rod Mac last Wednesday and he was raving about the beautiful Moser 
bikes he saw while at a training camp in Majorca this year.  I can only think 
it's the difference between Madonna and Sophia Loren ....

-1 Elegantly said, Robin!

   Chip